The Kevin Sheehan Show - Wes Unseld

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

Kevin and Thom opened the show remembering Wes Unseld who passed away early this morning. They talked about the NY Daily News story that the Nets are interested in a future trade for Bradley Beal. They talked protests/riots and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Tommy's here today. We'll get the show started in a moment, but in a world of uncertainty, one thing is for sure. Cancer doesn't stop during a global crisis. On Saturday, June 13th, the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society will host a trailblazing event, big virtual climb sponsored by Abbe, to support their investment in groundbreaking research to advance blood cancer cures and its first-in-class patient education and services, including financial support and clinical trial navigation. Step up to take cancer down by climbing 61 floors or 1,762 steps. Inside or outside on stairs, on the road, or on your treadmill, climb your way. Join us for an opening ceremony and then take on your climb with our heart-pumping playlist. Join us on June 13th from coast to coast as we come together to climb, conquer, and cure. Register at lLS.org slash big climb. You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. You're listening to The Sports Fix. That's right. Sports Fix Tuesday, the day before Tommy's big move, he'll tell us about that. And actually, we are recording this just off the news that Wes Unseld passed away. And this was really sad. I saw this right after my radio show.

ended this morning. He's a favorite of yours. He's a favorite of mine. Wes has been such a part of the community in the DC area, in the Baltimore area for so long, but he passed away early this morning and he was 74 years old. You know what? Not old enough, Tommy. He passed away from pneumonia. he's had lengthy health battles, according to his family. They put out a statement. But wow, what a big part of this city's sports history and beyond that, you know, just sort of a rock. The way he looked and played on the field he was as a person,

you know, you remember those battles with your favorite team, the Knicks, when he was in Baltimore and the first year or two in Washington. But it's sad that Wes has passed. away. One of my favorites of all time. I always had tremendous respect rooting against him as a Knicks fan. And I had the pleasure in September

in 1989 doing a story for Sport magazine, a profile of Willis and West because they were both going to coach against each other that year in the NBA. West had been hired to coach the bullets, and Willis was coaching the net. So this would be the first time after playing against each other all those years.

They coached against each other. And I went back and I read that story that I wrote in Sport magazine. And you know how I always point out that, you know, the one game where Willis Reed had 36 points and 36 rebounds against West? Yeah. Well, the game before that, with the Knicks up 2-0 in that playoff series, West Unseld had 34 rebounds. The entire Nick's team had 30 rebounds.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's... So those are the kind of wars that those guys fought. And I had the pleasure to talk to both on them, and they had such tremendous respect for each other. I mean, this was, this was, you know, like two great fighters, you know,

like being, like, you know, having a friendship that lasted all their, lives because of the war that they thought. And that's what it was like with Willis Reed and West Unfield. I mean, you could not. I can't think of anyone that I've ever come into contact with that knows basketball that doesn't have respect for West Unseld. Incredible respect for Wes Unseld. You know, for me, you know, growing up with, you know, the bullets of the 70s and remembering all of those games is really, you know, among my first memories as a sports fan, certainly the early 70s when the bullets moved from Baltimore to D.C. And Tommy, I was not a bullets fan when they were a Baltimore team. I don't know anything really about the history of the Baltimore bullets. I, you know,

during that, you know, the early 70s before Washington actually got an NBA team, you know, it was college basketball. And I was a huge Maryland basketball fan. And that's all I cared about. It was the Redskins in Maryland basketball. That was basically it. And then the bullets moved to D.C. in 73. They were the Capitol bullets that first year. And I was immediately drawn to them and was a huge fan, in part, Tommy, because unlike the Caps who were an expansion team, the bullets moved to Washington and they were good.

You know, they were a championship contender. And so, you know, that first year, I'll never forget the first year they were here. here, 73, 74. They played the Knicks in the playoffs in a seven-game series, and they lost in game seven, and I remember being crushed by that. I'll never forget, like, I can remember my friend John Adkins. John was a good friend of mine, and we had a sleepover at his house on the night of game seven, and we were both huge bullets fans, and they lost game seven, and the season was over. And it was the next season that the bullets were really good. They won 60-something games, beat the Celtics in the Eastern Conference finals, then lost to the Warriors in four games

and one of the biggest upsets in NBA finals history. The next year, they lost in seven to Cleveland. The year after that, they lost in six to Houston, and then came 77-78. And I was looking this up before the show started. My memory was that Wes was much older than he actually was during that championship series. And that's why I guess I'm surprised that he was only 74 when he passed away this morning. I would have thought that he was older. You know, he was only 31 years old in that 77-78 championship season. And by the way, he was great during the playoffs. Remember when we had the conversation last week about Elvin Hayes? It may have been the week before. And I said to you, I think one of the reasons that people don't give Elvin Hayes as much credit as

maybe he deserves, is he wasn't great in the biggest games, you know, in their biggest series. And he wasn't, but you know who was? Wes was. Wes always came up big. And in game seven at Seattle, clinging to a two-point lead, Wes, who was not a good free-throw shooter. You know, I don't know what his numbers were during his career. I'd have to look that up.

In fact, I'm going to look that up right now. I'm just curious what his free throw shooting. His career free throw shooting percentage was 63%. So not great. But in the 7778 season, he was a 53.8% free throw shooter. That stinks. And yet, at the end of Game 7 in Seattle, clinging to a two-point lead with 12 seconds to go, Wes got fouled.

He went to the free throw line, and he knocked down two free throws to give him a four-point lead. Now, all he needed back then, Tommy, he was really won because there wasn't a three-point shot. But he knocked down both of them with Elvin Hayes on the bench who had fouled out. He got the MVP, and he deserved the MVP of those NBA finals. And then, you know, beyond that, what I remember about Wes Unseld is I just remember this incredibly imposing physical specimen, you know. And he was the definition of, you know, of not talking and letting his play, you know, be seen through his actions. He was an actions person, not a, not a mouthy person at all. And he was one of the most feared players, right?

You'll remember this more than I. He was one of the most feared players in an NBA era of feared players. Oh, absolutely, not the guy that you wanted to mess with. You didn't want to trifle with Wes Unself. No, no. No, you know what's interesting, in this article that I wrote, you know, Wallace Reed had this phrase called the will to win is what drove him. And I asked Wes about it, and Wes talked about it.

He called it intensity. He said competitiveness is something that you can't teach. but there are some people who have it and some people who don't. Intensity, I think that's something you can demand on the court. Otherwise, you're not put on the court. That's the only way you could look at it. He was intense. Oh, man, he was intense, but you could never, you didn't notice it based on his demeanor.

He had this scow, but, you know, he didn't smile much on the court at all. but he was so soft-spoken, you know, for such a, like, so I don't want to forget these thoughts that I jotted down. Number one, greatest outlet pass in the history of the game. That's what he was known for. For those of you that don't know Wes Unseld, he, Wes Unseld had a signature play, a signature thing. It was his out, two-handed, overhead outlet pass. All right? Kevin Love, impersonal. Kevin Love's middle name is Wesley. His father played with Wes Unseld,

gave him the middle name of Wesley for Wes Unseld and taught him Wes Unseld's two-hand overhand outlet pass. He was known for that. He was one of the best screen setters and pick setters in the NBA. He was a very good passing big man. He was a dominant rebounder and was certainly at various points in his career, a big-time scorer as well. Never, you know, a huge score like in Elvin Hayes.

But, you know, his rookie year, right in Baltimore, he was the finals MVP and the NBA regular season MVP. I think it's the first time that's ever happened. And rookie of the year. That's what I meant. Rookie of the year. He wasn't the final. No, rookie of the year and MVP.

He was rookie of the year and MVP. I think that's only been done one other time. Who? Magic. In NBA history. I forget who it was. but I mean that's a rare. Yes, that's what I meant to say.

Yeah, I meant to say rookie of the year and MVP in the same season, that first season in Baltimore. But I wanted to tell this one story that Phil Schneer and I were talking about when I had Phil on the radio show last week or two weeks ago and we were talking about Wes. And I asked him to talk about Wes and Elvin and what people should remember about him because it was just off of that list, Tommy, of the ESPN. top 74 players of all time. Wes was 50 on that list. Elvin Hayes was 44. And he told the story, which I have seen and I've heard told before,

about game four of the 1975 NBA finals. Golden State with Rick Berry against the Washington Bullets, the heavy, prohibitive favorite. Just coming off in Eastern Conference finals win over Boston, the bullets were supposed to

sweep the Warriors. The Warriors were a surprise team out of the Western Conference, and still to this day, and I've mentioned this before, I think it's the single biggest odds upset in NBA finals history. The bullets were... I remember that Golden State team with Clifford Ray and Jamal Wilkes, and the coach was Al Addle. Talk about another tough guy. Well, that's what I was going to get to. So the story of the fourth and what turned out to be the final game of the 74-75 season. It was played at the Capitol Center. Golden State's got a 3-0 series lead.

And by the way, you know, the thought was, you know, Phil mentioned this. They didn't think they were out of the series down 3-0. They still felt that they were the better team. But Rick Berry's putting together, you know, an incredible series. And he's dominating the bullets. He's out playing the stars, Elvin Hayes, West Unseld. and in before game four, Mike Reardon, who was the bullet small forward, he was a Nick, too. You remember him with the Knicks.

He played with both Willis and Wes. Exactly. Mike Reardon, his nickname was Bags. Mike Reardon was essentially the guy given the responsibility to take Rick Berry out of the game, as in knocking him out physically. And that's the way basketball was played back then. And the plan was that Reardon was going to try to agitate and get into a fight, you know, an intentional fight with Rick Berry and get them both tossed from game four.

Well, Reardon gets in the fight and attacks Barry. And Al Addles was the coach of Golden State. Well, before the game, Wes apparently was given the responsibility of Al Adels. Reardon said, I'm going after Rick Berry. I'm going to take him out. Wes, Al's coming off the bench. You've got him. And Sheneer told the story about how Al Adels was the head coach of Golden State and was a tough, tough guy, as you said. And when Reardon gets into the fight with Barry, and you can see this, this is a YouTube game. You can see Wes as Al Adels comes sprinting off the bench, step in front of Reardon,

And as Sheenier said, it took every ounce of the strongest man in the game, Wes Unseld's strength to keep Al Addles away from the skirmish. Al Adels, Al Adels got tossed from that game. He got kicked out of the game, which Golden State eventually won to clinch the NBA championship in Washington. But Al Adels was not on the floor to see it. He was back in the locker room. Barry, by the way, did not get booted from the game. He stayed in the game and ended up with, you know, another good game and Golden State won the game and swept the bullets.

But listening to Schneer talk about unselled being given that assignment, and Wes is like, man, Al's actually a tough dude. Like, he's really, like, who were the tough guys of that era? Like, I know Clifford Ray and Mo Lucas, you know, who played with Wall. Alton, Maurice Lucas in Portland. Bob Lanier was a tough guy, right? Yeah, these were all tough guys. You know, but West was probably the most feared of that time. West was probably the most feared.

The guy who, if somebody hits you on the back of your head, and you turned around the swing, and you saw it was Wes Unfeld, you pulled back. Yeah. I love all those stories. Like I was looking through sort of the toughest, you know, guys, toughest NBA player list. And there's a bunch of them. And I see Wes in some top tens and top 15s and top 30s or whatever. You know, Nate Thurman's on the list. And just Rick, Rick Mahorn was definitely a tough guy. Yeah, Xavier McDaniel. Yeah, good one. Definitely a tough guy, Charles Oakley. Oakley, definitely. But, you know, Willis Reed had the legendary, I know we're talking about West, but Willis had the legendary fight of all time where they were playing the Lakers in the mid-60s.

And there was a guy named Rudy, I forget his last name. He played for the Lakers, and he was considered a real dirty player. And he did something to Willis during the game. And Willis went after him. The guy ran to the Laker bench, and Willis basically fought three or four guys on the Laker bench at one time, and they all scattered. Look up the video of it. It's on YouTube. It's considered one of the legendary fights of all time.

He just basically wiped out the Lakers bench. I love that. But they were cut from the same claw, Tim and West. They were cut from that same intense, you know, take-bill prisoners mold. And it's interesting. When I was talking to Wes for that story, and I was watching them during a practice back then, you know, one of the questions I asked him was, I bet you wish you had you on that team, you know. And he said, I think I'd be better if I had Willis on that team.

You know, I think of Wes Unfeld. I didn't know him well. I knew him a little. And I hadn't talked to him in probably decades. but he was a lot like Eddie Murray personally. Right. Very reserved, but did he have the same reputation among media members that Eddie Murray had? I don't know if he had the same reputation, but he was pretty unapproachable in a lot of ways.

Here's the thing what I mean by that is to outsiders, they didn't know what he was like. The people who he was loyal to or who he was friends with, extreme loyalty, extreme friendship. I mean, you know, people who were close to West rave about what a loyal friend he was. Right. And that was the same thing with Eddie Murray. But you obviously didn't get that from the outside looking in, that this was such a compassionate, caring guy. Was that the same thing with Jason Worth? No, Jason Worth was just an ass.

Yeah, but his teammates didn't think that. No, his teammates didn't think that. But I don't get the same impression that Jason Worth was beloved by everybody, by the janitors who worked at the stadium, like West was, by, you know, the lowest worker at the arena. Yeah. You know, one of the other things when I had Phil on, and, you know, you and I had Phil on, and I know, you and I know we've had conversations in the past, but, you know, Elvin was not, Elvin was difficult, you know, and like, of that, you know, of those three guys, like there was the era of the 70s before Bobby Dandrich got on the team where it was three stars, you know, the bullets had Elvin Hayes,

West Unseld, and Phil Schneer, you know, all three were stars. Phil Schneer was a star, you know, in the NBA. And then when Phil started to have the back problems, Bobby Dandrich, you know, was signed and, you know, they won a title, obviously, very much because they added Bobby Dandridge. He was the key missing piece. Right. Absolutely. And in those title teams, in the title team and then the team that lost in the NBA finals in 79. But, um, but the, you know, Wes was beloved to your point. Elvin was really difficult. And Elvin had a problem with everybody, Phil and, and Wes, but Phil, Phil said that, you know, when they got on the court, it was all, business and it was all professional. And Elvin was a major pro. He said the biggest problem with

Elvin Hayes is he was very insecure, you know, and he, you know, he just, he, he felt like he never was getting enough credit and people were, you know, thought more highly of other players than him. But anyway, this is about Wes Unseld. Rest in peace, Wes Unseld, one of the greatest, really, one of the greatest sports figures and players in the history of this town. He's a champion. He's a legend. He's considered one of the 50 greatest players in the history of his sport. And then obviously his post career as both coach and general manager didn't go quite as well, you know, here.

No, it didn't. There's always a danger. I've always talked about that. The second act, when they go bad, you have a generation of fans that grow up with that as the impression. And that's always a disappointment. And, you know, it happened with Mike Flanagan in Baltimore. It's happened to some extent with Doug Williams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, although he didn't have,

Doug's never had the control over the organization that West did. No. You know, by the way, one other quick thing, I mean, the relationship between Abe Poland and Wes Unseld was truly, you know, according to people that knew, you know, you talked about, loyalty, boy, was West loyal to Poland, and vice versa. A father and son relationship.

Yeah. It really was. Yeah. I mean, the people who knew West were very loyal to him, just like the people who knew Eddie Murray were very loyal to him, and outsiders didn't get that. They just didn't get that. Yeah. By the way, the other

quick thing about Wes Unseld, you know, for his entire career, he was listed as six foot seven. And I remember that sort of like Barclay, because Barclay also was listed as 6-6-6-7, but he wasn't 6-7. I think Wes even admitted this at some point that he was much closer to 6-5, that it was a program height. But think about that, that he was, you know, listed at 6-7 played center. He was a true center in the NBA. That is incredibly short to be a center, but he was such a wide body.

Well, Kevin, you know this as a basketball guru, and I'm being half serious here. I mean, I'm being serious, actually. Rebounding is not about height. No. No. It's about timing and position and smart. And effort. You know, in basketball, rebounding defense.

Yeah, is as much about heart and effort as it is about other things. But, yes, technique, positioning, all of that. Not to mention he had great hands, great hands for a bigger, you know, less mobile kind of player. Anyway, so Wes Unseld passed away. I'll just never forget those teams. It's a sad, it's a sad day for Washington sports fans. I mean, because, I mean, it's another, Kevin, it's another chapter gone in both of our lives. Yeah, I mean, I don't like to think of it.

It's another passing milestone. Yeah, but I am surprised. I really was surprised to learn that he was only 74 years old. Did you know, I mean, didn't you think he was older than that? I never gave it much thought, but since I figured he was probably 21 and 68 as a rookie. It makes, I mean, I think I knew he was a rookie in 68, so it made sense. You know, he always looked like an older player. You know, he looked like an older soul, older player.

facially and otherwise. But I didn't realize, like if somebody had said to me yesterday, how old was Wes Unseld when the Bullets won the NBA title in 1978? I would have said 35, 36. He was towards the end of his career. He was in the final few years of his career, so he had to be in his mid to late 30s. He was 31. He retired at 34. You know, that's not super old for retirement. Anyway, let me tell you real quickly. interesting segue here. But if you were to guess on average how many days people

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All right. There are a couple of other things that I wanted to get to before we get to all of the events of the day. I wanted to mention that I had John Wall on the radio show this morning, Tommy, before Wes Unsel passed away. I actually recorded it yesterday and then we played it back today. But, you know, this NBA plan potentially for a restart to the season, which may only include 22 teams. don't know how much you've read about it, but basically they're going to take the teams that were in the playoffs or were within earshot of the playoffs, and they're going to let them participate in some sort of shortened regular season. And for certain teams, like the wizards who were on the

outside looking in, give them a way to play their way into the postseason through some sort of short, you know, round-robin tournament. There are a lot of different ideas of how it would work. But I asked John Wall yesterday, I asked him how healthy he was. And he said, I'm 110%. I'm ready. And I said, well, now that, you know, there's the possibility of the

Wizards playing, maybe in playoff games, you know, a month from now, will you play? And he said, no, no, no, no, I'm not playing until next year. You know, I want to get a restart to the season. You know, that's what we're shooting for. I don't want to mess up, you know,

what was going on here. And I said, well, you know, everybody's sort of restarting here. You know, by the time this thing starts, it will almost be the amount of time that's typical of an off-season. You know, everybody's going to be starting from scratch. It's not like you're going to go back to March 8th or whatever that day was and say, hey, we're the same exact group. It'll be four months. You know, you're right. You're right. I mean, you know, I mean, how much difference is there, him starting to play ball in July? as opposed to starting to play ball in September? Yes.

Because September would be training camp. Yeah, so I agree with you. But he really, he shot it down. He said no chance. Like they have a date. And so, you know, part of me believes that, you know, while he says he's really ready and ready to roll, that maybe, you know, they've got a timeline on the rehab

and they're not going to push it back earlier, you know, than they wanted to. There was something else to just Wizards related real quickly that I didn't get to on the podcast yesterday. There was a report out from the New York Daily News over the weekend that Brooklyn, the Nets have reportedly had internal discussions about trading for Bradley Beale, which would pair him up with Durant and Kyrie Irving next year. And Beal in an interview Friday on ESPN said, quote, it's not the first time I've heard this. kind of talk. It's interesting. To me, I look at it as a sign of respect that I've been doing good things and guys want to play with me. That's an unbelievable feeling. When you hear that Kyrie and Kevin Durant want you, that shit's amazing. At the same time, you don't know how much there is to it

or how easy it would be to do. And I've put down roots in D.C. and I've dedicated myself to this town, this community. I love it here. And it would feel great to know that I could grind out winning here. instead of jumping to another team. But I'd be naive to say that I don't think about it when these stories come up. Closed quote. He also had some comments about John Wally. He said, my biggest thing right now is that I want to play with John again.

I want to see him get back to the level where I know he can be, especially since my game's grown so much while he's been out. What can we accomplish together? I'm so happy he's healthy working his tail off. He's looked great before the pandemic quarantine. He said, I was super encouraged when I saw him participating in various, you know, activities. And he said the few practices that he participated in with us changed the whole outlook of our team, closed quote. Man, oh, I don't even know what Brooklyn could give the Wizards.

The Wizards are not going to trade Bradley Beale. But, you know, I've mentioned this to you in the past, and that is that you don't win an NBA championship in the 21st century without a top five player on your team. So if the goal is to win a championship, the Wizards aren't going to win one because they don't have a top five player on their team. You know, I went through the – I agree. I agree. Yeah. And the thing about the NBA – is as opposed to football or even baseball, I think, to some extent.

It's so hard to turn around the direction of the franchise unless you get extremely unbelievably lucky. Yes. So true. I mean, like Golden State for 20 years, were the worst franchise in the NBA, worth in the Wizards. And then they hit the lottery with Clay Thompson and Curry. But they didn't actually hit the lottery.

You know, they just really, like Oklahoma City did, like they did something that is really hard to do. Like getting lucky where you get the number one pick and you get to take LeBron James, you know, is one thing. But they drafted well and so did San Antonio, you know. And of course they had David Robinson and Tim Duncan at the top of the draft, you know, to get him started. But yeah, I mean, look, it is the sport that is most impacted by talent. If you don't have talent, you don't have a chance. And to take that a step further, as I mentioned, if you don't have a top five player on your team, you can't win the title.

There's one example, Tommy, in this century of a team winning a title without a top five player. It was the 2004 Detroit Pistons. where Chauncey Billups was probably the best player on their team, and he was not a top five player. Rip Hamilton was not a top five player. Rasheed Wallace, Ben Wallace, none of those guys were top five players. Every other team, you know, starting with Shaq in the beginning of the 2000s, and Tim Duncan and the Spurs and Kobe Bryant and the Lakers and LeBron and the Heat and, you know, Curry and Durant. And, you know, the only Kauai Leonard last year, there are two teams that, you know, other than the Detroit team that you could debate, but it's a hard debate.

And that is, Dirk Novitsky, in my view, was a top five player in 2011 when Dallas won. And Kevin Garnett was definitely a top five player in 2008 when the Celtics won. You could say, oh, no, they were actually the sixth and seventh best player. It wasn't obvious that they were a top five player. Well, both of them were first team on all NBA selections in those seasons. So by definition nearly, they were a top five player. Anyway, the point is, back to the Beal trade thing, if I were the owner of the Wizards or the general manager of the Wizards

and I wanted to win a championship, I would always be thinking about, do I have a top five player? And if I don't, what do I need to get one? And that means I'd be all ears on any player that people reached out to me on. I would have to be. I agree. I agree. If you're not going to, I mean, if you're not going to win with the guy,

if your goal is to win 45 to 48 games a year, and maybe if you're lucky, make it to the second round of the playoffs, which has been the measure of success for this franchise for the last 40 years. You know, those, I mean, whenever they do that, those are considered the glory days. when they win 48 games and make it to the second round. But that shouldn't be the goal. You know, I mean, the goal is to win the NBA championship, and you're not going to – you're right.

You're not going to win it with Bradley Beale and John Wall. No, that's just not going to happen. I mean, you know, if you had a third player that's a top five, but I don't think Rui Hachamur is that player. I mean, I've been impressed. I've been impressed. I like him. He's a good complimentary player.

That's right. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. You know, if Wall really is healthy and Beals really improved, which he has, you know, they could win 50 games and win and get to the Eastern Conference finals. And they were very close under Randy Whitman in 2014 and 2015. You know, if John Wall doesn't get injured in 2015, they're in the Eastern Conference finals. You're right.

You're right. But he did. He did. Yeah, he did. And they wouldn't have won over Cleveland anyway. And if they had a better bench the year after that, when they played the Celtics. Well, that was a couple years later. Yeah, in 2017, if they were better, yeah. And, you know, they weren't going to beat Cleveland more likely than not in the Eastern Conference Finals either that year. I did ask John, I said, which of those two teams?

The 2015 team where you got hurt or the 2017 team where you lost in game seven to Boston? would have had a better chance of winning the Eastern Conference Finals and getting to the NBA finals. And I said, assuming you don't get hurt in 2015, and he said it's close, but he'd go with the 2017 team, even though the 2015 team had Pierce. Oh, I nearly forgot. So I asked him, you know, I had him on for 25 minutes. And I said, so for years with my partner and with all my listeners, I took a lot of, you know, flack for being a huge Trevor Areza fan. And I said, I always thought that it was a massive mistake after that first playoff year where you guys, you know, beat the Bulls in five and lost to the Pacers and you and John were, you and Brad were young. I thought Areza should have been

re-signed. I never thought Durant was coming here, and he just interrupted me. And he goes, a thousand percent, a thousand percent. We all knew it and we all said it at the time. A major mistake. And he tried to backtrack by saying Paul Pierce was a good player, but Areza was a leader, was a defender. We just had, we had the mix that was the right mix

in 2014. So I was glad to see my very strong hot take opinion that I'll never back off of validated by one of his teammates. Well, I hope you kept that sound bite for eternity. You know, those moments are

They're rare. Very rare. Trent Williams spoke to Ian Rappaport yesterday and said that he was ready to play last year when he came back. He said, you remember the whole thing with the helmet and getting the helmet to fix, get fixed, that they finally, that the trainers did and the equipment manager got the helmet to him the following Tuesday when he got back late the following week. And he was surprised that they put him, the, you know, the NFI list and ended his season, that he was ready to play, that he had the helmet and was ready to play. You know, the whole Trent Williams thing is like a Law and Order episode where they bring in two guys accused of a crime, and you don't know which one to believe because both of them are liars. True. I don't, it's funny you say that because I was like, you know, I want to take him at his word,

but the bottom line is, I'm not sure I completely believe them. Right. Of course, why would you? But that means, do you believe Bruce Allen? I mean, that's what I know. I always, you know, one of the things I would say to Redskins fans is, you know, however you side on the Trent Williams versus Bruce Allen thing, if you side on Bruce Allen, if you're on Bruce Allen's side,

look at yourself in the mirror in the morning and say that a couple of times and see how that feel. You know, I just think of the two weasels, I would give the benefit of the doubt to Trent Williams in a lot of cases. But be honest with you, I don't believe either of them. I would definitely give the benefit of almost anybody else in the case of Bruce Allen. But I just, with that whole incident last year, I just knew a lot, trusted a lot of the information that I had, and I don't believe any of them. Like I actually would lean towards the Redskins being a little bit mischaracterized by the entire incident.

With that said, whatever, it's the Trent Williams thing. We're beyond it. He did sort of giggle when Rappaport said that, you know, he couldn't believe that the Redskins ultimately just got a third and a fifth when, you know, a lot more was offered. And Trent just laughs. He also, he also said that San Francisco was really the target for him and his agent, you know, going back even before the draft because there were some rumblings about.

Joe Staley retiring, and Trent wanted to be in San Francisco, and he mentioned Kyle and Mike. He said, Mike's around a lot, you know, with the 49ers. And Chris Furster and Mike McDaniel and a lot of the former coaches, he's like, I just really, I was always comfortable around those guys, and that's where I wanted to be. Anyway, last thing before we get to all of the events of the last several days, I want to hear what your opinion is. I have no idea what you've been if you've even had a chance to weigh in on it. But this baseball thing, the owner's now mulling a shorter season of 50 games. I don't know if you followed this.

That's the news out of Jeff Passon, who's been all over this story from the jump. You know, the players were at 114 the other day, and the owners are essentially saying. the more games we play, the more money we lose. We're up for a 50-game schedule, and we will pay you your entirety of your pro-rated portion of your salaries, which would equal like 30% of their annual salary for 50 games, where it's 70% for the 114 games schedule. It would appear to me from afar that there's still so much distance

between players and owners that this is not a lot, to get done? No, it's not a lock, but I think the owners ultimately will cave under the pressure of the scenario of having the NBA and the NHL start while baseball is on the sideline. I think, I mean, we're talking about the long-term health of your product, and you can't afford to do that. you know so i think the owners ultimately will have to give more than they're willing to just to get make sure they get their game on the field uh because you again you can't come

september have the NBA underway the NFL underway the NFL starting and baseball not doing anything right i mean that's that's long-term damage i mean the players those you know some players will retire some players will come back to next year and start making their money again, it won't affect the players as much as it will the owners, if the owners have the vision to understand that. Yeah, I think the sport better be careful because to your point, if basketball and hockey are back playing and it's exciting and we're in August and September and their playoff games and all the sudden football starting and there isn't a suspension of play and they

complete their seasons and it's a great thing for the country and it's a great thing for sports fans and baseball sitting on the sideline watching this play out. Not a good thing. I mean, personally my feeling, and I know many of you listening don't necessarily agree with this, but I think the last three to four months have made a lot of people realize that they didn't need as much sports in their life as they thought they did. Now, I think people would have felt differently had this happened during football season, or a lot of people would. But I think there are a lot of people that miss sports and would prefer to have it, but figured out during this period of time that they don't need it as much as they thought they did.

Yeah, yeah, I guess. But boy, we need it now. Yeah. I didn't spend a lot of time on this yesterday because I did three hours of radio on it yesterday morning. I will tell you, Tommy, that today on radio, I did basically all sports. And I had somebody tweet me, where is it? Hold on. I got a four. find the tweet. Sheehan, you are leading the violin group on the deck of the Titanic this morning. Are you out of your mind? And I came in early this morning and I had a bunch of thoughts written down and I just said, you know what, I did this for three hours yesterday. Am I going to do this every day this week? You know, I'm not one of those who feel like, oh, I'm a sports show. We're doing a

sports show. We can't weigh in on, you know, significant events of the day that are impacting the lives of everybody that are listening to us. Like, you know, somebody said, dude, I tuned in, this was yesterday, I tuned in for a sports show. If I want the other stuff, I'll go to the news. Well, you know, when there's a big sports story, news people do the sports too. You know, somebody that does a political talk show, when there's a massive sports story, they'll spend some time talking about the sports on their show too, but I'm not going to do it every day of the week. And, you know, other than the president's speech and the photo outside the church, you know, and more rioting and looting and, and damage last night, you know, there wasn't like a major

update to the story anyway. But go ahead. Your thoughts on the last several days, because we haven't talked since Thursday, where we did talk about this a little bit on Thursday. A little bit of a major update yesterday. I mean, basically, you know, the president moving protesters added away so he can get his picture taken at the St. John's Church across the street, which was all about. I mean, you didn't need to be Sigmund Freud to figure out, you're going to make fun of me for hiding in the bunker Friday night?

I'll show you some courage, buddy. That's what that was all about. That was Trump saying, I don't like the idea that everyone saying that I hid from the protesters Friday night in the bunker. So I'm going to show you, I'm going to confront them. I'm just going to get them out of the way first before I confront them. It was a sad day in a series of sad days. It was a horrible, horrible look for the country, but for Trump, for his face. And I think that's a dwindling base, but it's still his base.

It's all he's got. It played right to it. He became the law and order president. And this is what Nixon did. And I lived through 68. Nixon was not an incumbent at the time. He was a candidate running against Vice President Hubert Humphrey. But during the riot at 68, Nixon made a point of making himself the law and order candidate

who would bring order to the streets. and back to the country, and it helped get him elected. So as a political strategy, I could see it coming. Once the looting and the rioting started, it was easy to see that Trump would adopt that Nixon style. And so that was part of the show of force yesterday to basically show that he's the law and order president. You know, he should have went a couple blocks away later in the night,

when they were busting up windows and breaking into storefront, that would have been a little bit more impressive show than pushing away all the protesters who were considered peaceful from all reports. If he walked down Connecticut Avenue with his little army and started arresting looters there, that would have been impressive. Can you imagine the look on the people breaking glass windows and jumping into stores if the president's standing with his arms crossed on the sidewalk, checking it all out what they would have looked like coming out.

Yeah, I mean, I thought the walk across the street to that beautiful church that, you know, it's so funny, you know, I mentioned to you that my oldest son's girlfriend from L.A. had been with us for like the first two months of this thing. And one of the days we sort of got in the car and we drove around D.C. and, you know, drove down 16th in Pennsylvania, drove down Pennsylvania, and went by the church. And I said, that's the church of the presidents right there. That's the church they go to. And, you know, a couple weeks later, it's, you know, basically torched.

Yeah. I thought the walk across the street was ridiculous. I thought it was a stupid idea for a photo op that didn't make him look strong, in my opinion. It made him look like, you know, the narcissistic dope that he is. I mean, at the same time, I actually listened to the speech, the six-minute speech, too. And I was not happy about the lack of any address late last week or over the weekend and him tweeting out, you know, from the bowels of the White House over the weekend. I actually thought the look was incredibly cowardly, you know, and I think some of those tweets were incendiary. And in situations like this, I expect the president of the United States to do whatever he must do to protect the citizens of the country.

And I thought we should have heard from him before last night. But I did listen to the speech and I found it. I thought it should have included more empathy, more conversation about George Floyd and what he intends to do about this issue of police brutality towards African Americans in particular. I think he should have, you know what I, and before the speech started, I said to my son, I think he should say, black lives matter as part of this address. I think he should. He'd rather have its tongue pulled out but the rest of it, you know, the insistence that he will do whatever he can do to protect good people from the few, you know, the minority of bad people that are taking advantage of this situation. I had no problem with those words. I wanted to hear those words, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I,

obviously, nobody, nobody, well, I wouldn't say. nobody. There are a handful of people that think it's part of the process. I'm not one of them. I mean, I see the people doing damage to people's lives. Innocent people's lives are being

damaged by breaking into these windows, by the rioting, by the looting. You know, it doesn't have to be part of the process. And, you know, look, we got snapshots. All you get are snapshots from what's going on out there in the

media. You can only take the snapshot for what it's worth. You know, we saw snapshots of people breaking into stores and looting. Yeah, when you say, you're not saying snapshots literally because there's, you know, extended video of all this. But we also saw the snapshots of protesters trying to stop those people and actually get the police to arrest some of those people. people in certain aspects because they know that, you know, it damages what the core is of what they're trying to do. This is such, I mean, what's amazing is we have forgotten about coronavirus. And if the virus is true to its form, the shit's going to hit the fan in a couple of weeks.

Yeah. Well, I think it's been really fascinating here over the last week, you know, two weeks ago, basically half of our, well, three quarters to four-fifths of our media were shaming people who were in large gatherings, and now they're handing water bottles out to these people, which is really, really funny. But back to the speech for a moment, because, you know, I was listening to the reaction afterwards, and I'm like, am I missing something? The photo op, of course, ridiculous, absurd.

Okay, I would have preferred more, more empathy, you know. And if you listen to the SpaceX launch speech, there was a lot more about George Floyd and that. Nobody listened to that speech Saturday, which is fine. But, you know, to hear people refer to him as a dictator or a fascist. I mean, people don't even know what fascism is. He acknowledged that he was, you know, attempting to protect everybody, including the peaceful protesters who were out there. He wanted to protect their rights. You know, he wanted to.

No one's listening to it. what he says anymore. That's beside the point. He drowned himself out. I think it's just such a complex situation here, the aftermath. And the irony, and I mentioned this yesterday, is that the immediate reaction to this death was overwhelmingly in agreement. Like everybody, regardless of race, you know, gender, age, you know, profession, everybody thought it was a heinous murder. There was no dissenting opinion on this video. None. You know, police chiefs, you know, sort of predisposed to protecting law enforcement and giving law enforcement a chance for the facts to come out. They were all over television all weekend long, you know, current and retired, weighing in saying,

here's who you didn't hear from, police unions. Yeah, well, you didn't hear from police you heard from police chiefs. You heard from resumade law enforcement people saying, this video shows, a bad cop who committed murder. And that was the immediate reaction was everybody's in agreement. The aftermath is so less clear. We have so many people, I think the significant majority of people who are upset, have George Floyd on their minds, have chosen to attempt to be part of peaceful protesting as, you know,

our constitutional First Amendment allows. And then we've got a smaller group of people in every city where protests are happening who are fucking it up for everybody. else, including those that are heartbroken over the death of George Floyd, even if they aren't choosing to protest. They're at home watching. That particular group has created as much angst about the current stability of this country, Tommy, as we've seen in a long, long time. You know, maybe since 68. You know, people have gone from being sad and angry about George Floyd to be, to being concerned for their own families and their own businesses.

But they're also, and they are, but they're also concerned about the person in charge of the country. That's what adds to their concerns. They just watched a leader take us through, you know, with no leadership skills, take us through this, this health crisis that we went through. And now we're going through a crisis that's probably far more significant. and there's no confidence in him, save for, I think, a dwindling fan base. Here's what else I think you saw with the march across the church. You saw a preview of January if he loses in November.

Oh, stop it, Tommy. Oh, no, no, no, no. Stop it. God, you sound like Michael Moore. I can't take that. He ain't. He ain't leaving, seven. Really?

And why do you think that? I said that six days after he got elected. Right. He won't leave. And how does that work? Explain that to me. Well, how does this work? What do you mean? How does this work? He's currently the president. You're suggesting that if he loses the election on inauguration day, he's not going to move out.

They're going to be there at the door with armed, you know, maga hat wearing people, keeping Joe Biden and his family from moving in if that's the way it shakes out. Come on. It's ridiculous. He will not leave. Bet you as much money as you're willing to bet that that doesn't happen. I mean, see, that's, that's inflamed. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, inflaming people's.

Really? Then if you're so sure, bet me. I'm not going to bet you about something mysterious to this. Oh, really? What do you mean? This is serious? It's not a game. Okay. Okay, so you only bet on games. You're not so sure of it. You don't really believe that. That's hyperbole. No, you don't. 100%. No, you don't. You're smarter than that. You sound like Michael Moore. No, I'm not. 100%. Look, I don't believe that for a second personally, and I don't believe that you actually believe it. But whatever. Kevin, why do you keep saying? I mean, how insulting is it?

That you're telling me, I don't believe what I'm telling you. Because I don't care if it's insulting. You insult me all the time with what I think and actually what I say. I don't think that you really believe that he would stand there with armed guards around him and refuse to leave the White House. I think he would. Really? Yes. Okay, I believe you.

Then it's just a stupid thing to say. I, you know, here's the issue about what you talked about earlier, which I'm glad to hear you, you know, not be. one of these people that believe that everybody's peacefully protesting and that there isn't other stuff going on because there clearly is. I mean, you know, I wake up this morning and I see four police officers in St. Louis shot by protesters and windows smashed, fire set, stores looted in New York, you know, rioters in Seattle throwing rocks and fireworks. And I also had to sit there as I'm watching, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, them clear out that area. last night at Lafayette Square for the stupid walk to the church by the president.

And I'm hearing everybody tell us, tell me how peaceful the protesting is. And I'm watching some big tall blonde dude take a swing at a, at one of the cops right in the background. Um, you know, this peaceful protesting. Well, you're watching, you're watching a dude who's getting pushed out of the way. We're doing nothing but protesting. Did you get a picture of that guy before the cops started pushing them back? I don't, you know, I know that there are definite examples of people, of police officers being overly aggressive and being out of line with respect to handling these protesters.

And I've watched and I've seen the protesters and there are lots of them that are absolutely there for the right, you know, reasons. You know, mostly good intentioned people who are angry and demanding change once and for all, you know. And at the same time, in every single one of those groups that I've seen, there are people who are antagonizing, provoking, ill-intentioned people who have other motives amongst the majority of good protesters. I think it'd be an awful job, not an easy job for these police officers who are there, and they've got this incredible job, Tommy, right? What are their responsibilities? The responsibilities are to, number one, uphold and protect the people's First Amendment rights to peacefully assemble and protest, while simultaneously having the responsibility of protecting the safety of those people and the people around them.

It's not an easy job. I don't know that I've seen only a peaceful protest at this point. I mean, how peaceful is it when the front row of these peaceful protests, Are people, you know, chanting FTP, middle fingering the police and chucking water bottles at them? I mean, that's the examples of the peaceful protests. Okay, that's, no, it's not. Yeah, it is. That's not the examples of all the people.

No, it's not. That's your example. No, that's what I've watched. That's been what I've seen on TV. I'm sitting there watching. You got to change channels. No, no, no, I watch everything. I'm watching all channels.

Okay. I'm taking notes on all of them. Yeah, okay. Listen, the standard for cops has to be much higher. That's part of the problem. The problem is cops have to have the intelligence and the integrity to have a higher standard. Right. Your first move can't be to walk down the streets of Minneapolis and say, light them up when there's people on their porches taking videos of them.

Oh. That can't be your first move. Well, the first move can't be to turn tail and leave the precinct either when demonstrators enter it. I actually think part of the problem with the aftermath of this situation is that in the first few days of this, they were too accepting of the behavior. There wasn't a tough enough stance by police. you know, and I think that that essentially created a situation that let the bad guys believe that it was open season on anything that goes, and it also simultaneously conveyed to citizens that were counting on police, Tommy, to keep the peace that they're sort of on their own to a certain degree. That was certainly the case in Minneapolis in the first few days with that mayor who ordered those police to abandon a precinct.

Tell me in the history of our country in recent modern times where police ran away from their own precinct. Oh, granted. The first days of Minneapolis were terribly mismanaged, and that did contribute to, you know, making things worse later on. And there still were, look, there's some bad mayors. I mean, the mayor in New York, DiGlias, Di Blasio. De Blasio. Yeah. He, I mean, last night, the people are just like going up and down the streets in New York, breaking in the stores and stuff like that. And the police are nowhere to be found. It was terrible. It's, I mean, that's where, again, you know, I know that there are examples, I'm sure, of police overstepping their bounds. And you're right. This, this riot control thing, I don't know what the proper.

protocol is. I'm sure that there has to be a ton of unbelievable patience exercised by the authorities in these situations because certainly, yes, the television that I've watched on all of the networks, because I flip around to all of it, I've watched even in the so-called very peaceful settings, a lot of antagonizing. You know, a lot of, by the way, a lot of people there interested in almost just sort of recording it on their iPhones for posterity. That goes for the violence, too. Like a lot of the rioting and vandalizing and looting video that you've seen, there are maybe, you know, less ill-intentioned people observing in the background,

but seeming to get a rise out of it as they recorded it, you know, on their iPhones. I don't understand that. It's funny. I don't understand that behavior either. I saw a lot of people trying to stop the riots. I've seen some of that, too. I've seen some of that, too. and I've seen a lot of people standing by with their iPhones out.

In fact, I jokingly said, and this is a joke, this is Tommy's soccer crowd. These are the people that aren't sports fans that adopt the World Cup and the watch parties because they want to be a part of something. And all they do is video the whole thing. But no, in all seriousness, I don't know what the answer is. I mean, there's so many things going on. And the George Floyd thing being the most heartbreaking thing, wanting those police officers, including the ones that haven't been charged yet, to pay the price

severely with decades in jail. I hope that happens. And at the same time, you know, we've got people who are taking advantage of this situation. And most Americans, I think, want Derek Chauvin and the rest of those officers on the scene in Minneapolis to pay dearly for what they did. And I think most Americans also right now are unnerved by what they're watching every night on television. I think both of those things are simultaneously true. I think there's a group of Americans who think that America should be unnerved. Finally. That's true, but do you approve of the means of those people that feel America should be unnerved

and how they're making America feel unnerved? Do you approve of that behavior? I don't think innocent people and business owners should have to suffer damage as a result of it. But I understand the emotion for some of them. Look, some of them are just guys trying to, are just criminal. What percentage of them that are committing these crimes? Take a guess. I'm not doing that.

What do you mean game? I ask you to take a guess. You think it's the majority? I'm not going to take a guess. You think the majority of people, you think the majority of people who are. looting and vandalizing and and and and creating mayhem are doing it because they are so unnerved and upset and angry over the George Floyd murder or not? No, but it gives them cover to.

Okay. Yeah, that's that that that would be my answer too. I don't think it's the majority of those people. I think the majority of people are upset really want their anger and their emotion to be felt peacefully in a legal way. And I think that's the majority of the people that are out there. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you.

I think the majority of people that are creating mayhem couldn't give a shit about George Floyd. The bigger issue, and what kicked all this off, was the police brutality, plea brutality particular among people of color. And a smart president, like in 19, in the early 60s, or what was it, 68 or was it 64, there was a national commission that was organized by... LBJ? I think it was by LBJ. basically into study, you know, the underlying factors in civil unrest.

And I think, look, every president, Obama included, has not wanted to touch the idea of police brutality. There's been, there's been, I covered cops for 15 years. Let me just look at the disclaimer out there. I've written along with cops on patrol in four states. I've been on undercover operations with cops. I've been on special tactical forces with police. A friend of mine, South Lomanooga, a New Jersey State Trooper, was shot in the face at a traffic stop on Route 80 in New Jersey.

I mean, I've covered, I've been close to a lot of cops. There's been an epidemic of police violence in this country for years, for years. And it's not to diminish Black Lives Matter, because it's absolutely true. It's 10, 15, 20 times worse for people of color. But for anybody in a certain situation, when they're stopped by the police, I've known people white, black, otherwise, who have experienced that kind of police brutality. I mean, it's a problem across the, if you're white, you should be worried about it, too.

because I'm betting you've got a friend or a relative somewhere or an acquaintance or know of somebody along the way somewhere who was mistreated by a cop. Yeah, I mean, this murder of George Floyd was terrible. It was terrible. And every single time it happens, you know, we're not, this isn't being introduced to the country, this idea, this of police brutality towards African Americans. through it decade after decade and over the last decade really the last 20 years in particular because we've got the ability to video a lot of this stuff it's become you know a four or five six time a year thing i i also believe in in my heart of hearts that most police men and women are probably not that way you know that this isn't and you know that you don't have to paint

it with a broad brush and say that they're all racist that they all No. No, no. I just don't believe that to be true either. It's a deep-rooted cultural problem within police department, within law enforcement. Why do you think that? I don't know. I don't know why. I mean, I don't.

Do you have a theory? That would be part, no, I don't on this one. But again, this would be what a leader would do. Say, we've had this problem for decades, you know. And we need to establish, and I know this is a cliche, but they need to take, they need to have a document in hand created by experts in these fields on all sides to be able to say, this is the problem, this is how we tackle it as a blueprint for police departments around the country to stop this. And it's, I mean, it's a deep-rooted thing. to the original portion of this conversation, somebody's got to figure out a solution to this.

It ain't easy, but you got to figure out exactly what has happened with real data, like real information about what this problem's been, quantifying it. How pervasive is police brutality and racism in police departments and in law enforcement around the country, and how do we root it out and keep it from? coming back. It's all about hiring.

Well, actually, I mean, a lot of people would say it's all about oversight. And the more outside oversight you have, the less you're going to have these kinds of situations. What's outside our oversight mean? People outside the profession, the industry, and handing out... Civilian review boards, things like that. look first everyone they have to acknowledge that there is a problem to fix there's a lot of police departments that would tell you there is no problem to fix right there's a lot of research out there that would tell you that the problem is a problem but it's not what everybody thinks it is in terms of the numbers but not the problem does not mean somebody is killed

the problem is you're right somebody is stopped you're right you're right at a traffic stop for something that you and I would not be stopped for it. I know enough people, and I've had this conversation enough times with friends of mine who are black, and it always breaks my heart to hear how they view being pulled over and how they have to have conversations with their kids and their sons in particular about how to handle that kind of situation that I've never had to have with any of my boys. Now, you suggested that I do have that conversation with my boys, but I've never felt compelled to. I've never had that problem.

I've never fired being pulled over. Remember what happened in College Park? Remember what happened in College Park with the riots? Yeah. There were a lot of people that got hurt by police there. You're talking about after the Maryland Duke game? Yeah. In 2010?

Well, yeah. A friend of mine's son, white kid, student, got this shit absolutely kicked out of him by the PG County police. I mean, I know people who that has happened to. So my point is, while it is much, much worse for people of color, and we can't even begin to understand how bad it is for them. Right. This is a problem that everybody should take seriously because it's probably affected somebody you know somewhere, white or black. you know being sensitive to this being an issue wanting it to change is one thing what the solution is another you know outside oversight as you suggested hiring differently what i suggested

um i don't know what it is i can tell you this Tommy and you know this because you spent time and I know this because I know I have a very good friend of mine whose brother has been in the D.C. Police Department in his entire life. And they've spent many, many times over the years having some of these conversations about what they face on a daily basis and putting their lives at risk every day. It's not an easy job. And that's why I guess I got a little bit frustrated earlier that I'm watching, you know, as everyone, else is on TV and everybody's got a different perspective. And I want to believe, and I do believe that the majority of people are angered and they're hurt and they're there for change, that they are there

to exercise their constitutional First Amendment right to peacefully assemble and protest in the name of George Floyd. But we are also here over the last several days, we've had as much unrest and as little pushback in those first few days as we've ever seen. And what I would say is what concerns me is when you go from turning over a police precinct to a bunch of demonstrators, what's next? You know, and when you start shooting police officers in St. Louis, and when you are, you know, smashing windows and setting fires to churches and stores in New York City and Washington, to me, we do have to look to, yes, a person that doesn't have very much in the way of leadership skills, but we do typically need our leaders to figure out a way to protect this and to

minimize the unrest while also securing the right for people to protest, but it's getting very murky out there here the last few days. This is what I would say to those police officers on those front lines. Those people are standing there, yelling at you because they think you're the enemy. They think you're the enemy, which is a bizarre concept when you think about it. The people who are hired to protect you are considered the enemy. You need to change that. How do you feel about in these situations, and I think we've all observed this,

we've all observed it, the situations where, you know, if not the majority, the near majority of protesters and sometimes the most provoking and antagonistic are white. This is unique for this particular last week. I don't know that we've always seen this. I think we've seen more of this in recent years, but we've seen a lot of it over the last couple of days. Saw a lot of it last night in Farragut Square. Oh yeah, absolutely. They haven't felt what we just described African Americans have felt. So why did they believe that? I think you... Why do they believe police is the enemy?

Police are the enemy. Again, I hope they don't believe that. And I hope that they understand that in this particular case, I bet you most of those police are thinking that that guy, Derek Chauvann, is a terrible murderer too. And that they don't want to be associated with somebody like that. But there have been too many times where this has happened in the past where nobody from the police departments have spoken up.

This has been a very unusual situation to have so much outspokenness about this, and still none from the union. Not from the police union. That's a big problem right there. Why do you think that there's been so much sort of unanimous opinion on this, on this particular one? It was difficult to come up with another side. Right. Some things are indefensible.

Right. Yeah. Now, that said, he was charged with third-degree murder. Yeah, and I think that's part of the problem, too. And he was charged with that because, and the prosecutor's probably right, he or she don't think they can get a conviction on first or second-degree, on second-degree murder. They don't think they can.

I mean, because there have been other juries and other cases where they've been unable to get convictions, murder convictions. So he went for, you know, the bottom of the wrong, manslaughter and third degree murder because, and he's probably right. I'm assuming it's a man, could be a woman, and I'm forgiving me if I'm wrong, that they're probably right that that's their best chance of getting a conviction based on the history of juries being unwilling to convict police officers. And prosecutors being unwilling to put forth strong cases because prosecutors have to work

with police officers. It seems like one solution would be there should be a special attorney's group in the Justice Department on a federal level that is brought in to prosecute these cases in every jurisdiction of the country. Because the prosecutor's office works too close to the police department to alienate them. Yeah, well, in this particular case, the FBI is in there. Yes. You know, the DOJ did, there is going to be a federal charge coming more likely than not. There will be a federal charge, but I'm saying it's always difficult for local prosecutors because of their close relationship with the police. It should be on the book as a standard.

Anytime this comes up, it goes to a federal investigation. I'll tell you what. I don't think if they had come out two days later with a first-degree murder charge, that it would have stopped a lot of what we've seen on the bad side here over the last several days. Oh, I don't know. Even if they had charged the other three cops who watched, I don't think it would have stopped this. Look, part of it is the guy in the White House. Look, I have a problem as well.

I think he is an absolute horrible leader, and narcissists are never good leaders in crisis situations. I think everybody understands that. It's always about them, not about us. That's the problem. We've seen that over the last three and a half months. With that said, we've had these situations over the last several presidents, Democrat and Republican presidents. You know, loved presidents, despised presidents, popular presidents, unpopular presidents.

I will grant you that this particular issue is unique in a lot of different ways. starting with, we were all in agreement. There was total unanimous, this guy's a murderer, he needs to go to jail, and so to the people that stood by and watched it. And since then, it's devolved into an unbelievable situation that is, by the way, Tommy, come at a time where we have horrible, you know, unemployment, job loss, desperation, people out of work, people who have just gone through a two and a half to three month lockdown. There's a lot at work in this one, a lot of it.

And I'm not going to dismiss the impact that the man in the White House has either. He's divisive in his rhetoric. This speech on Twitter on Saturday was cowardly. All right? You will not get me to defend him at all, but you're not going to get me to defend the people out there smashing windows and setting fire to people either. And act like it's based solely on the guy in the White House. It's much more than that.

I didn't say that. I said he had fueled it. You're right about the atmosphere, the pandemic, and people being locked up and people losing their jobs and stuff. And I'll tell you what else has contributed to it. We could have used a lot of rain in these cities the last couple of days. It really has. Yeah, I mean, if it's been pouring down in D.C. the last couple of nights, I don't think you'd have seen the same thing.

It is a lot coming together here. I mean, it's, these are, I mentioned this story yesterday because I'm pretty sure I told you this story. Like a year ago, I got into this argument with a family member who was absolutely convinced that these were the most divisive, most polarizing, scariest of times. This is year, year and a half ago. And I said, come on, man. 68 half of our cities were burning down. We had a civil war in this country. But fast forward a year later, not that he saw this necessarily coming, but the first major pandemic in almost 100 years or over 100 years, and this sort of sitting powder keg that's exploded in the wake of something that everybody agreed on.

Like it would have been one thing if you had people out there defending the police actions. If you had people saying, no, we got to wait and see. There's context. There's a backstory here. We got to wait. No one was saying this. Everybody watched that video. And everybody heard that poor man ask for his breath, telling him he can't breathe, crying out for his mother. It is just awful what Derek Chauvin and those other officers did to this man.

Awful. And at the same time, the unrest in our cities now, you know, over the last several nights, is unfortunately the behavior of, to me, criminals, opportunists who really, for the most part, don't give a shit about George Floyd. And that's got to be stopped, too. Yeah, it does. Yeah, it does. But not, I mean, but, you know, I mean, the image that we saw,

of Trump yesterday, walking over to the church, and before that, the police, from all accounts, clearing out a peaceful group of protesters. No, your accounts, okay, I know where your accounts come from. There are a lot of different accounts on that, including three specific warnings to clear it out, because you had in a curfew that was imminent. You know, three different attempts to clear it back. You had a couple of scuffles. You had a lot of FTP chance.

You had water bottles being hurled into that situation. It was not a bunch of, it wasn't 100% across the board, peaceful people that weren't told to move and asked to move. Of course it's not 100%. Just like it's not 100% of people, of police officers who decided to punch out a cameraman. Yeah. It got in the way. Right.

It was one. Yeah. Just like it wasn't, you know, in this particular situation, police backing off and saying, you guys do what you want, which happened the first three or four nights of this, of the aftermath of this. I think what went on in Lafayette Park yesterday

has nothing to do with what the police didn't do in Minneapolis. Well, I sat there and watched that whole thing. thing, and while I don't think that it was totally peaceful as it was described and as you said from all of your accounts, I don't think that it was particularly, you know, combative or volatile either. I'm just saying that to paint it as everybody was down on their knees peacefully protesting and, you know, that's not true. The accounts, multiple accounts, suggest that they ask three times. You're exaggerated. that. No, I'm not exaggerating the way it was described by many.

No, yes, you are. No, I'm not. There was no violence taking place. That's the stand. There was no violence from protesters taking place. There was also no movement when they were asked to move. So what do you do? So what do you do? I don't know, you tell me. I don't know what the protocol is. You tell the president to get back in the fucking White House and you leave them there. I don't mind that as the answer.

I don't mind that as the answer. But I also don't want to hear that these people were totally ready to do whatever they were asked to do without any violence or any pushback or any antagonism. Look, I think that's an exaggerated view. Which view? The view that I just described? Yeah, I think they were just not filed. I agree with you. The people that said that were exaggerating.

I agree. Yeah. Okay. I thought you were saying that I was exaggerating it. No, the people that said that were exaggerating it and they painted it that way after the fact. But again, here's the truth on all of this stuff. We're not there. You're not there. And even if we were, we still probably wouldn't have all the answers. Just like, I don't know if this is Antifa or I don't know if this is white supremac. I don't know if they're right-wing extremists, left-wing extremists, or just local, you know, opportunities. that are taking advantage of the situation. And I don't think anybody knows for sure right now. You're right. You're right. With all the information, know for sure. Here's what we do know for sure.

You're right. Here's what we do know for sure. There are some bad people out there doing some bad things right now, and they've got to be stopped. They do. They've got to be stopped because we need people are sad and concerned about what happened last week in Minneapolis, and now they are concerned about their own well-being and the well-being of their businesses and families.

And you can tell me that you've got to feel uncomfortable. So there are people out there that want to make you feel uncomfortable. That's fine. I have felt uncomfortable before. But what you're going to get is you're going to get a whole lot of people that are concerned and also willing to fight back. And that's when in these situations you end up with more than just civil unrest. You end up with a lot worse.

you rely on your government, local and federal, to keep you protected in these situations. Let's see if they can handle it. But anyway, what else? I got nothing else, boss. I'm getting ready to move. You're moving tomorrow? Are you doing the moving? Do you have a moving company?

My days of college moving are over. I mean, there's nothing worse than moving. Yeah, we're moving to 15 minutes away to a condo in Frederick. Did you call any friends in the last couple days to say hello, see how they're doing? Actually, I spoke to Pat Gillick a couple days ago. Really? He's 82 years old and still doing scouting when he can for the Phillies. And you reached out to Pat Gillick.

You've got quite the Rolodex, don't you? I called him, and he wasn't home, and then 10 minutes later, he called me. That's really nice. That's really nice. I've always had a great relationship with Pat ever since he was in Baltimore with the Orioles. We went out to dinner one night at Little Italy, and we polished off a shitload of wine, and we've been tight ever since. And I guess what?

I finished my screenplay. Ah, finally. All right. Yeah, so listen, I know you know a lot of important rich people in the movie business. No, I don't. So I'm hoping that you're going to. to be able to help me out with this thing. You know, I'd like to read it first.

I'd like to make sure it's not like threat-level midnight. I'd like to make sure it's not a Michael Scarn special. You know, I want to make sure it's professionally done, and then I'll help you out. No, I don't know anybody that can help you out. I'd love to read it, though. I know. I'll get you copy. I have to get it registered first with the Writers Guild of America to make sure.

to make sure nobody steals it. And then I'll get you a copy. Is that what you do to protect it? Is that a real thing? Yeah. Yeah. How did you even know that? I've known that for years.

Look, I wrote a couple of short stories 30 or 40 years ago that wound up getting bought to be made into movies for very small price. And they never got made. but so I knew that from back then I just have that knowledge interesting yeah all right um good luck with the move I'll talk to you on Thursday all right boss I'll see you all right we're done for the day I'll be back tomorrow