The Kevin Sheehan Show - What Happened To Defense, Defense, Defense?

Episode Date: April 4, 2026

Kevin opened up with the Nats' home opening loss to Shohei Ohtani and the Dodgers. An e-mailer reminded Kevin of his Commanders' off-season mantra of "defense, defense, defense" and wondered why he had gotten away from it. Mike Renner/CBSSports.com jumped on to talk NFL Draft and the PFF sale to Teamworks. Kevin previewed and picked the Final 4 and had two "Smell Test" selections as well.   For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match Our listeners get the Harry’s Plus Trial Set for only $10 at https://www.Harrys.com/[INSERT CODE]  #Harryspod For all your garden needs: fastgrowingtrees.com/sheehan Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. He is Kevin. That's something for him. It's footballed's hammered. And this game's tied. Shohei Otani, first home run of the season.

It's three to three. Dan Colco on the call of Shohei Otani's three-run shot in a third inning of the Nats home opener. This afternoon, a game to Dodgers won. 13 to 6. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, Window Nation, 86690 Nation or WindowNation.com. If you need new windows, I highly recommend Window Nation. Mention my name.

They'll take good care of you. It starts with a free in-home estimate. Dan Colco, by the way, replacing Bob Carpenter this year. Carpenter did those games for 20 years. Wow, what a career Bob had. a 42-year broadcasting career, the last 20 here in Washington. Dan's done a really good job as a part of the broadcast for the last several years, and now he's in the big seat, and he sounds great so far, from what I can tell.

Shohay Otani, by the way, came into today's game, hitting 167 and without an RBI in the first six games. Now, he did have an outstanding start as a pitcher, but today, four RBI. eyes, including that three-run homer that tied it. C.J. Abrams actually gave the Nats a three-to-nothing lead with a three-run homer in the bottom of the first. A beautiful day for the home opener, but a fifth straight loss in a home opener for Washington. And the most runs the Nats have ever given up in a home opener since they moved to D.C. One guest on the show today, Mike Renner from CBS Sports will jump on with me in the next segment. We'll talk draft with Mike. He covers the NFL draft and the NFL. The other

reason I asked Mike to come on is Mike has been following closely the pro football focus sale to Teamworks. He's been tweeting about it all week. He actually used to work for PFF. So we'll learn a little bit more about that sale. I think Chris Collinsworth did very well. I've got some final four thoughts and two predictions on both games, predicting the winners of both games. I've also got two final four smell test picks that I will include in the final segment of the show today as well. The caps really missed out on an opportunity last night. They had a situation in which they were playing a lesser team in New Jersey, and all the teams in front of them that needed to lose did lose.

The problem was the caps lost as well, seven to three to the devils. So the caps, they're still in it, they're still alive, six games left. They're three points out of the final wildcard spot, or the second wildcard spot. They're only two. There are four points behind the islanders for third place in their metropolitan division. The top three spots in each of the divisions get an automatic birth into the postseason. so they can still do it, but the problem is they're not chasing down one team. There are several teams in between the second wild card spot and the third place Islanders.

So they're going to have to finish five and one, maybe six and oh, to get into the postseason. They play Buffalo at home tomorrow. The Sabres are one of the best teams in the league this year. Real quickly, before I get to a few emails and some skins talk, Luca Donchich, who has been on fire the last month, on a team, the Lakers, who have been playing very well. He is out for the rest of the regular season with a grade two hamstring that at least last night was preventable,

but wasn't because his coach, J.J. Reddick, made a nuts so decision, in my opinion. Let me just real quickly tell you, because I have a feeling most of you don't even know what I'm talking about. The Lakers are the three-seed currently in the West. LeBron's been playing well, but Luke is the star of that team. He was averaging 37 and a half points a game over his last 16 games during the month of March heading into April.

But he's had some hamstring issues. and last night in a game against Oklahoma City, they were down at halftime, 82 to 51, a 31-1-1-point OKC lead at the break. 82 to 51. OKC is the best team in the NBA, record-wise, and probably otherwise, though San Antonio's close. And I think Boston's going to be held a deal with in the postseason. But this was not a game.

that was winnable. And Luca in the first half tweaked the hamstring. They took him out of the game. And then he started the second half. And that's when he got injured seriously. Now, what we don't know is how long he's going to be out beyond the rest of the regular season, which is only five games. The real question is, is he going to miss playoffs or time during the playoffs? Because the Lakers can't win a series, no matter what they're seed is without Luca Donchich being healthy. But JJ Reddick put him in the game in the second half after he tweaked his hamstring in the first half in a game in which his team was trailing by 31 to the best team in the league debatably.

I think that's a horrible decision and may prevent the Lakers from winning a playoff series this spring. That required an explanation. And Reddick said last night, look, we were just putting the starters in there to see if we could make a dent in the lead to get back into it, and we were going to pull him after six minutes or so.

But he got hurt before they could pull him. This is from Devin. Devin writes, Kevin, you've gotten away from your defense, defense, defense mantra when the season ended. And I did say when the season ended, this offseason has to be about defense, defense, defense. Devin continues, too much talk about love, Tate, and even the USC receiver, Lemon. Malachi Lemon is the receiver he's talking about there.

They need to keep adding defensive talent to the roster. Peters went and got a bunch of jags on defense. in free agency, no stars. I think the only future pro bowler they added in free agency was Chig, as in Chig Akonkwo. Stay focused, Kev. As you've said, improving the defense is just as helpful to Jaden Daniels as is adding another offensive playmaker.

Yeah, I agree with that. I think, you know, if you want to help Jaden out, if you want to help the team out, you've got to improve the defense. The defense helps the offense. If the defense can get off the field more than they have the last two years, if they can create short fields, if they can create turnovers, if they can score, if the defense can score. I don't think I've really gotten away, though, Devin, from my defense defense mantra.

And I definitely don't think that all they added were a bunch of jags, you know, just another guy. I think they did very well. I think O'Way has a chance to really emerge entering his prime here as a big-time pass-rusher. I love Chanel. I love the Nick Cross edition as well. I think they've got some good players on defense that have filled some major holes, and I think they are much better talent-wise, not to mention faster and younger on defense than they've been the last couple of years.

But I think O'Wea and Channal and Robertson and Chasun and Settle and Omenahue, I think they're going to help out a lot. I think they did well in free agency. Sure, you know, offensively they missed out on Alec Pierce, Tyler Linderbaum. Maybe they really wanted Trey Hendrickson. But I think they did a good job. I don't think these are just guys. I don't think O'A is for sure.

You're right about Chig. I do think Chigakanco could become, you know, a Pro Bowl caliber pass catching tight end. But I've not advocated that they don't pick a defensive player at number seven. I absolutely would be fine if they took, you know, Bailey or, you know, a Reese or a downs. I mean, a corner like Delane. I'm fine with defense in the draft at seven. just want them to pick the best available player. My preference would be if that best available player was another defensive player.

That is my preference. I got this from my guy Yale. Yale writes, Kevin, if next year's draft is as good as advertised, why shouldn't Peters be trying his best to load up on picks next year? Trading back from seven or even from their third round position might net more attractive. picks in a deeper draft. Upper MC44 writes about the same subject. Got two of these in pretty much the same day.

Haven't heard you talk a lot about the 2027 draft. It's been called the deepest in a long time. How many picks do we have? And can Peters add to it with picks in this draft or even trading somebody like Duran Payne? And are you telling me that the Chargers wouldn't have given up a fifth or sixth rounders? next year for our center. Seems like something Howie Roseman would have pulled off.

Let me just mention, I just don't know that you'd get much for Duran Payne, just so you know. Not with what he is due next year, money-wise. You know, could you get a day three pick next year? You're not going to get one this year. By the way, the 2027 draft is apparently loaded and very deep. and people are really excited about the 2027 draft. But more on that in a moment. Let me just say this, that if next year's draft is supposed to be so great,

and I believe that people do believe it's supposed to be so great, don't you think Yale and Upper MC44 that the other teams know that too? They're not giving away next year's picks, and if they do, they may put a premium on them. So other teams understand that too. But beyond that, you know, I looked up some of this because I had a feeling that this was the case. Last year, when it came to quarterbacks specifically, the word was, hey, if you need a quarterback, just wait until the 2026 draft. Don't worry about the draft this year. It's Cam Ward. That's it. Hold off. Don't reach. The 2026 draft is loaded with quarter. quarterbacks, Arch Manning, Nussmeyer, Cade Clubnick, Sellers, you know, Carson Beck.

By the way, nobody this time last year mentioned Mendoza. Nobody mentioned Ty Simpson, the two quarterbacks that, well, Mendoza is definitely going to go in the first round, and then maybe Ty Simpson goes in the first round, although I've seen more and more kind of mocks and more and more reporting lead away from Ty Simpson being a first rounder. But the point is, is who the hell knows what it'll look like when we finally get there? It looks great now. Looks like a great receiver draft, a great quarterback draft next year. But again, this time last year, they were everybody, everybody saying, don't worry about quarterbacks in 2025, 2026 is going to be the quarterback year.

and we'll probably have one selected, maybe two, neither of whom anybody knew about this time last year. So I wanted to play something for you. T.J. Hushman Zada, remember him, receiver for the Bengals many years. He has been a guy that's been training and working with various NFL players, one of whom is Brandon Ayyuk. T.J. Hushman Zada's got Brandon Ayuk as a client that he trains. On a podcast yesterday, I want you to listen to T.J. Hushman Zada talk about his client, Brandon Ayuk, and just what he thinks, any team thinking about signing him needs to be focused on.

He really can play anywhere. Anybody should want him on the team. but in the discussion was yesterday at what cost because we had somebody saying a crazy amount of money that he was going to get and I said if anybody

gives him a crazy amount of money they should be fired tomorrow. They should be fired immediately. No owner is going to allow a general manager to pay BA that type of money the way he just acted in San Francisco. Nobody is doing that.

And so if you want to pay for $5 million and maybe three to four an incentives, we're going to take you. If you think you're getting a dollar more than that, somebody else, y'all got this. Because if I'm a general manager, I can't risk my livelihood in my job for you after what you just showed us.

I can't do that. And so talented? Yep. Can he run? Can he catch? Is he quick? Is he a good point? Yep.

Can I trust him? I don't know. T.J. Hushman Zata, Brandon Ayuk's trainer, wide receiver coach, warning all teams, all GMs. You give Brandon Ayuk more than $5 million. You should be fired if you're the general manager that does it. That's his wide receiver coach slash trainer. And look, we've talked about this, and I want to emphasize it again.

What Brandon Ayuk did is unprecedented. He walked away from between $30 and $40 million when all he had to do was show up at the facility twice a month to get his knee checked so that they could monitor the rehab. That was all guaranteed money, and the 49ers, because he went AWOL, and he did. didn't just meet the minimum requirements per the contract for an injury. They were able to void those guarantees, and he didn't even fight it. And the NFLPA didn't even pick up the fight for him, which tells you just how egregious the contract violation was. It's really bad judgment.

It's one of those things, you know, he's 28 years old. my God, in five years, 10 years, 20 years, hopefully at some point, he realizes, oh my God, what did I do? I walked away from between $30 and $40 million. And what T.J. Hushmanzada says about the player is true. If a team gets Brandon Ayuk from 2023, they've got a star wide receiver. Now, I wanted you to hear the second part of this conversation. I forget who's doing this show with T.J. Hushman Zada. It's a former NFL player.

I've seen him on various outlets. Acho, I think, is his last name. I'm not going to look it up. I could, but what's the point? I want you to listen to the question he asks T.J. Hushman Zata about Brandon Ayuk joining Terry McClorn. in Washington. Here it is. If he does go to Washington, T,

my question then is both how good can he make Washington and is he wide receiver one? Oh, he's got scary Terry out there. He's wide receiver one. Really? Yeah. He can go. Like, it's crazy because when you see BA on TV, he looks like he's this big dude. He's not. He just has

the long arms. He can run. He's quick. He'd be the best receiver on that team. But, and he, He has that relationship with JD that they want to play together. So what you're saying is crazy then? Because is there a better combination in the NFC than B.A. Scary Terry, Terry, Jaden Daniels.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. The Cowden. Is Dak better than Jaden? Because that's why I mentioned Jaden as well. You have to say, yes, Dak is better because of what he's done.

Jaden had one good year. Yes. And then both receivers are better. Yes. Then either of those. Then either, okay. Yes. And the other division, the other, the Eagles, they're better.

But Jaden Daniels, man, I'm telling you. Like what Jaden has done. The receivers, Jane Daniels is really good. But when you, okay, if J. Daniels is better than Jalen Hertz. Okay. A.J. Brown and Devante Smith is better than it's scared Terry. And I. When you combine them together.

T.J. Hushman Zata saying that Brandon Ayuk would be the best receiver on the team. I agree with that if you're getting the IUC from 2023. That's no disrespect to Terry. I felt that way at the end of 2023 and set it. I said, Brandon Ayuk is a top 10 receiver. Terry's probably just outside the top 10. Now, I let it roll the conversation about kind of the duo. The two of them together would be a top 10 combination in the league. Again, assuming Ayuk is mentally and physically healthy, and he can play the way he played in 2023. But they're right that obviously the pick-in CD-Lam duo is better, and the AJ Smith, A.J. Brown, Devante Smith pairing is better.

But then the conversation involving the quarterbacks, it gets very interesting. Who knows? But, yeah, I mean, that's a guy that played receiver in the league is close to IUC. He's warning teams. pay, don't pay, but if he ends up showing up for $5 million a year, you know, an incentive-laden deal, and you get the player from 2023, he can go. He can really do it. Man, I still think there's a really good chance, but the 49ers are playing this game. They don't have any reason to help out another team and to help him with the way they feel. So it could be, and I learned something this

morning, I was reading this. You know, the 49ers don't have any required money per the contract that they have to pay out to Brandon Ayyuk until September 1st. It's like a roster bonus for making the final roster. So they could take this to August 31st if they wanted to. All right. Let's get to Mike Renner from CBS Sports.com. We'll talk some NFL draft next. Hey guys, how about a barbershop quality shave from the comfort of your own home? That's the Harry's Plus experience, and I've been experiencing it for over a year now. My old razors dulled too fast, irritated my neck. That experience was the furthest thing from the close, smooth, Harry's Plus shave I enjoy now. Harry's Plus has an advanced pivoting system that reaches every corner of your face, The refined blade and the weighted metal handle provide added control and comfort. The blade spacing is optimized to glide smoothly and avoid clogging.

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No risk. They'll schedule it for you when it's convenient for you. Joining me right now, Mike Renner. Mike covers the NFL and the NFL draft for CBS Sports. Mike was also an employee with Pro Football Focus for several years. And one of the reasons I reached out to Mike is to talk draft, of course. And we've had Mike on the show before to talk about the draft. but he's been talking about this PFF sale to Teamworks this week on social media,

and I'd love to learn more about it. So we will get to that in a bit, but let's not bury the lead. Let's talk about the upcoming NFL draft. You just put out your latest mock draft. So what do you think Washington does at 7? I want Jeremiah Love for them. I think that would be, gosh, the most dynamic backfield since, Mike Vic, Warren Dunn, right?

I mean, when you have that much juice in one backfield, you don't necessarily you don't necessarily need too much more. I could put a good offense to line in front of that. That would be in and of itself an elite offense. So I think that specifically for them, you know, I don't advocate drafting a running back top 10

for everybody, but I think for the commanders and where they are, that would just be too terrifying for opposing defensive. That's a really, I mean, Vic and Dunn, I haven't come up with that one. That's really interesting to me. But you just said you don't necessarily advocate taking a running back that high, but it's a good fit for Washington. Do you think Love is in the class of the McCaffreys and the Bejones

and the Jamir Gibbs' and Sequans in terms of the backs that have been drafted very high and have worked out? I do, and I think the thing I was going to say love, I couldn't think of a better word, The thing I love about him is that he's driven. Like this guy is not even 21 years old, and he is almost psychotically driven to be the best. He said he's like, I'm not going to be partying. You draft me. You're getting a guy who's going to be about football all the time.

And I think that's what you saw at Notre Dame from freshman year or sophomore year or junior year. He got better. He improved the things he was weak at. And the guy is such a freak athlete that with all those things, if you have the off-field intangible, the on-field freakishness, it's like, okay, what do we, you know, how does he fail? I just don't think it happens. I mean, the guy is too unique at that position to really, to really see him not working out. It's just, it would be injury, it would be workload concerns given what we saw in Notre Dame, but as far as just like the

talent, yeah, he's in that mix. What do you think Washington does at wide receiver between now and, you know, training camp? That's going to be tough because I don't know. I don't know. if, I'd not say I don't know, I know there is no wide receiver. I would take seven overall in this class. It's just not that good, but like, you do need options because Terry's on the wrong side of 30, and we saw how injured he was last year. We saw just like the offense be nothing without him. I mean, he was so valuable to what they do offensively that I don't think you can risk going in a receiver. The good news is super deep receiving class. You can find them later on in this class for certain.

So I think you just got a draft one at some point. I just don't know if number seven overall is where I do it. What do you make of the Brandon Ayuk to Washington conversation that seems to be pretty prevalent out there when the 49ers eventually get around to releasing him? Do you see that happening? They got the money to do it, right? They're one of the few teams that could really make a strong bid there. That's probably your best bet.

opinion, given where they're at in the draft, given their lack of second round, or day two picks. So, yeah, that would be the most interesting option for me. Give me a receiver in the third round at 71. That's their next pick after seven. Give me somebody that you liked that makes it to that spot that would be a good fit for here. If they didn't go wide receiver at seven and they were still in the market for one having not signed Ayyuk. I really like Antonio Williams from Clemson. I think if he gets to that point in the draft, and he could, given he's not particularly

who's banged up last year, not the biggest guy, but I think he knows how to play wide receiver. I think he's just a very, I've compton to Jane Reed, Green Bay Packers, where the guy is a good all-around football player, maybe not a great football player,

maybe not, you know, Terry McClorian athlete, or maybe not this elite talent, but I think he just has such a high floor that really at that point in the draft, if you can get a high floor wide receiver, you're happy to heck about it. Does Branch from Georgia make it to the third round? He's one of the more interesting prospects in this class because his usage over his career is terrible if you're really trying to project the NFL, just all screens and all like scheme touches.

But he actually is a really good route runner, and then he tested just off the chart. So I doubt he makes it to 71. I would be surprised, given how the NFL coveted athletes like that. What about Denzel Boston? Is he late first, early second, or is it possible that he's available early in the third? No, he'd be gone by then. I just would be very surprised if he lasts that long. Now, he didn't test pre-draft, and usually the NFL doesn't love that when guys don't run 40s,

but I don't see him flipping outside the top 50. He's a guy who's just too skilled and has a unique, identifier and that he's just big you know the big receivers that kind of they all go there's this day two early day two is always like where the michael pitman's the t higgins the keon coleman's the jaden higgins that's where they come off the board running back wise if they didn't take love at seven or if love went to tennessee at four and or you know was just off the board and they got to the third round and they were looking at one give me give me one that you would like that would be available there, you know, early in the third?

It really is the only day two running back. I have a day too great on this class is Judarian Price from Notre Dame. And truthfully, I don't think he's there at 71. So there is not a I unfortunately can't give you one I like because there really is no one. So are love and price the only

backs you have going in the first two days of the draft or deserve to go? They are my only top hundred backs. Now, I think you'll still see some go because teams need running back and teams are still going to talk themselves in some of these guys, but there's just not the strong running back profiles in this year's class the way there was last year. I mean, just look at like the age of these guys. The guy, you know, you got 50 or six year backs might be your other top hundred picks,

and that's just the track record, I mean, that's just such a rarity. And maybe it's becoming more normal with NIL, but like usually you know the talented ones early on And so the fact that all these guys are seniors or later is in and of itself a red flag. If I told you that Tate and Love were both gone, Washington's on the board, both of the offensive possibilities anyway. I know you don't see Tate as a guy that would go that high, but if they were both gone, who's the defensive player that Washington fans should hope is available at seven and that they take? I think Ruben Bain guy I would love given their additions along the defensive line

that offer something a little different you know they brought in some speed to that front seven with O-A with Chase on I think he's some power like I think I know like he is one of the strongest prospects I've ever scouted in terms of his play strength so I think Ruben Bain on that

front four just gives you a different cat and he has versatility to go inside outside too so just really would turn over their pass rush overnight from what we saw last year. You mocked him in your latest mock to Tennessee at 4, so obviously the short arms don't bother you. Oh, not at all. He's actually the number is the top position player on my board outside of quarterback. So I am very high on his game. Yeah, I mean, that's one of those guys. Like, I'm a huge college football fan. I know you are as well. And it's like this dude just dominated. And I'm talking about.

about in playoff games during the months of December and January. And yet the league really hesitates with, you know, short-armed edges or defensive ends. But the tape doesn't lie on him. I don't think the tape lies on tape. You know, forget, you know, his 40 time. What do you make of the challenges that teams will have in evaluating Bain? It sounds like you wouldn't have any. to me it reminds me of

you remember Aidan Hutchinson coming out got dinged a bunch for his arm length and like there was a lot of questions about him and like any time a guy doesn't fit the prototype they teams seem to balk at the top of the draft

they want him to look like you know Will Anderson look like coming out right they want to exactly how that position is supposed to look sometimes when a guy's just that good at that position. You can't fake what he did on tape.

And just because, you know, these guys are college offensive tackles. I saw a quote from a scout and one of Ty Dunn's articles today that said, you know, he can overpower college office of tackles, but I don't see him doing the same against NFL offense. It's like, well, he was a college

defensive lineman. He's going to be even stronger in three years. You know, this guy doesn't just stop growing himself. So if you're that prodigiously powerful now, it'll only get better and it will only, you know, continue at the NFL level, in my opinion. I just think his tape was too good to just deny what he's going to be in the NFL. Yeah, I think he went against some future offensive tackles in the NFL this year as well.

Give me the player that you love. It can be anywhere. In the first round, it can be night two, it can be day three, that you really feel good about that you think, you know, is being undersold underrated. The guy that I am probably the most different from consensus on is Kate and Proctor from Alabama. I think he is

a top five player in my board. I think he is special in what he could be at the NFL level. I get the weight concerns. I have the weight concerns too, but... How much does he weigh? I mean, he's a large human being.

How much does he weigh? He was 352 at the combine. Okay. So, I mean, big boy. And apparently at times with 400 Alabama. And I don't want to play in a 400. But in today's modern NFL, who's the last guy that really ate his way out of the NFL? Eddie Lacey, maybe, that was a decade ago.

It just feels like these guys have so many resources at their disposal. They have agents in their ear. There's so much information out there that just doesn't happen anymore. So this guy is going to be playing lighter. He's going to be at a more consistent way. he'll have more oversight on a consistent basis. And when he was skinny-er, and it wasn't skinny, that would be skinny. When he was skinnier, the guy was awesome by the end of last season.

And he's super young, youngest off of him in the draft class. All those reasons, I think he's just going to be a dude in the NFL. Not a lot of people agree with me, but I'm happy to stick my neck out for him. Give me the guy that you think will be, that you're convinced will be over-drafted. Oh, that's a good one. You know, I think Sunny Stiles will probably be overdrafts. I think he ends up a top five pick,

and it's not anything really against Sunny Stiles. I think he's an awesome prospect. Just look at the track record of top linebackers in the NFL draft. It is one of the hardest positions to scout for a number of reasons, but the track record of those guys ending up into, you know, perennial pro bowl, perennial all pros, it's just so limited that I don't know. I would not take him where he's going to be taken in this draft.

And again, I'm not saying it's going to be a bad player. I'm just saying that the position is such that I would not go using a top five pick on it. He would have to be even, if they would, I'm trying to think of even a guy who had tape that I would take in the top five. It's just so rare that a college lineback is that good. and I would probably want a guy's a little bit more instinctive and have some more picks and ball production than styles it over the course of his career. So for all those reasons, he'll be a good NFL player.

I just would not take him top five. So interesting because that was my next question because Adam Peters loves high Rass score guys. He's drafted that since he's been the GM here. And Sonny Stiles had the highest, you know, offball linebacker Rass score ever recorded. Dan Quinn's created this culture here, Mike, that they want smart guys, they want competitive guys, they want locker room guys, and apparently Stiles is all of that. Plus, they actually have a legitimate need because Wagner is more likely than not coming back. And I have this sense, and I could be wrong, I have this sense that he might be the number one player on their board. I'm not saying that's who I would want, or I'm not even saying that's who I would mock to Washington at 7.

You've already said maybe as high as 5 to the Giants. But I just have this sense that they really, really like him. He just fits every single characteristic that they look for in players, and they have a major need there. So that's interesting because I think a lot of our fans think that if it's styles at 7, they'd be thrilled with it. but historically that position, especially off-ball linebacker, tough really to get it right that early in the draft. I think Adam Peters would comp him to Fred Warner, a guy that he was around a lot.

And if somebody told him you're getting Fred Warner, well, there'd be no doubt. That's who he would take. Yeah, but if the four-in-Iers knew, they were getting Fred Warner, they also wouldn't have waited until the third round, right? It's easy to say that now, but again, I think the Bucks thought they were getting Fred Warner when they drafted

gosh, why am I blank on it? Devin White back in 2019, it was the last guy to go top five and he wasn't that. Obviously, he won a Super Bowl with him, but he was not that guy ever in his career, and you could go and pay Devin White pennies now to play for your football team. So, yeah, it's just a position that has a big learning curve

from college to the NFL, and it's just a lot of people, a lot of guys have struggled to translate despite looking the part at that position. God, you know, that's such an interesting name, and you're right. Literally, you could get him for a song at this point. And his rookie year in that playoff run to the Super Bowl during COVID, he looked apart that rookie season, didn't he? Yeah, I mean, he looked like everyone thought he was going to be

the corner after that, because it was run and hit. He was so good at that, but then they started to, attack him in coverage and that's when you saw like, oh, actually didn't have the instincts in coverage because it is such a, I mean, it's the quarterback equivalent of the defense. You have to, there's a lot of variables that go into every play that they have to juggle. It's not like defensive end where the guy does it at a high level in college and he's a high level athlete, like, yeah, you know what you're getting because it's one simple job. There's a lot of jobs a linebacker has to do and do at a high level.

All right. Last one on the draft that has nothing to do with Washington. But do you like Mendoza? I mean, you mocked him number one, which everybody certainly assumes he will get selected by the Raiders. But what kind of prospect do you think he is? What kind of quarterback at the next level do you think he'll become? I think he's just an exceptional pocket passing prospect. I don't think he is going to reach the tier one of quarterbacks in the NFL, but I would be very surprised if he's, you know, a tier four or tier five.

I think he's just going to be a very solid starter because you rarely see guys as driven as him and as cerebral as he is. He loves it. He lives it, and he's a very smart guy. I think a lot of people would be surprised at how many quarterbacks aren't, or NFL players in general, aren't like 24-7 locked into the craft the way for Nana Mendoza is. And it's a rarity in most guys that are, especially at the quarterback's position. Well, it helps you. It gives you a pretty big leg up, and those guys tend to succeed, especially when they're, tapes as good as Mendoza. So from tools perspective, I think he's fairly okay.

Like a lot of guys have better tools, even in this draft class guys have better tools. But it's more than enough to succeed in the NFL. And again, a super high floor prospect, even if his ceiling isn't, you know, what Cam Ward's was, or kale Williams was what you normally think of a number of an overall pick ceiling being. I think it's still a pretty sizable ceiling, though. All right. We're going to take a quick break. And when we come back with Mike, Mike knows a lot about the pro football focus sale earlier this week to a company by the name of Teamworks. We're going to talk about that after these words from a few of our sponsors. Quick favor to ask of some of you, if you haven't rated or reviewed this podcast at any point in time and you don't mind spending a minute to do it, it's huge for us.

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We continue with Mike Renner from CBS Sports. So one of the reasons I reached out to Mike was to talk NFL draft, of course. But also this week I noticed that Mike was really following the pro football focus sale to a company called TeamWorks. He actually produced a short video with Sam Monson. Sam used to be with pro football focus, as Mike did many years ago. Sam's with the 33rd team now. And they talked about the death of pro football focus. And I wanted to talk to you about it because I was talking about this earlier this week,

but I just didn't know enough about it. And I actually want to just start with something really simple. And maybe I've missed it. But I had never heard of TeamWorks. What is TeamWorks? Who just bought Pro Football Focus? TeamWorks is a relatively new company, actually, that it's kind of like a high-growth startup where a ton of investor.

they're on like Series E or something of investment. And they're trying to be the entire back-end solutions for NFL and college teams. And not just football, but like basketball, but they're trying to do all sports. And so they are the, I think they started as a payments company actually to handle payroll for NFL teams and have just added more features continually from there. and so buying PFF gives them the video side, the PFF's main selling point to NFL and college teams right now, is their video capabilities that they have with PFF ultimate to basically be your one-stop shop for watching any in all film as a scout, as a coach, as a player. So that's why they were valued where they are. and that was, I think, what TeamWorks was in the market for.

How early of a company is it? You said they were in their Series V or Series C. how much money have they raised, and has it been from people like in the sports industry? That I don't know. I haven't looked that deep into it. Who's all actually funding this and where the money's coming from and how much? But I think it was $130 million was the price tag on PFF that I saw at least.

So they're raising a good amount I mean, it's not, this hasn't been And it's not like they're a You know, themselves have made you know $130 million. This is all from investment trying to kind of corner a market very quickly. So tell me about pro football focus. I've had all these guys on the show for years now.

I mean, Sam's been on Eric Eager before he went to You know, the the Panthers and Sumer Sports and you know, all these guys have left recently, but I've had so many of them on for so long. And I'm curious just about what their business has been with teams, the business side. I understand what's available to the consumer and what you can pay for and the grades, etc. What have the teams, you said video capability, but what specifically were the teams paying for when they, you know, contracted with PFF for their services?

I think there's two big things. One was there are a whole team of support team is what they're called, that PFS that basically would help with sort of data problems internally at these teams. So they would go help with whatever, you know, any sort of studies, any sort of things they wanted to do that they could provide external support for and kind of give the PFF data. You know, the ADC and premium stats, there's even, like, they get the granular, they get the play-by-play of all that to work with themselves, all these NFL teams, what they're buying.

And then the second thing that probably is even bigger, that at least from my talking to NFL teams and their NFL personnel and things of that nature was more utilized, was the thing called TFS Ultimate, which is their video platform, that basically allows you to cut up into all that data goes into a usable video platform where you can just find play so like you want to find all the times where a guy lined up as a inline tight end and blocks the defensive end on outside zone two clicks you can watch those specific plays without having to do it used to take someone literally going through everyone would have people in their building that coaches wanted

that stuff they would go through and have to manually find those place and then give them to the coach. Right. Now it's just, it does it automatically in that tool. So that was the biggest selling point. I know from talking to, we said Rick Spielman used to work at CBS with me,

former Vikings GM. He said that tool gobbled their throughput of prospects in the spring. Like they get through twice as many guys or get through guys twice as fast as they did as a scouting staff because of that, because the directed film watching, you didn't have to watch a bunch of plays where they were doing nothing. Was it used more for the draft preparation, or was it used for the preparation of their next game? Both. I mean, it helps with, you know, I think it's in and of itself, that tool or that ability, that capability,

has led to a lot of the defensive advancement, I'll say, throughout the NFL's, because offense has just got such a leg up on these defenses because blitzes, whatnot, like, you could go watch all their, you could watch all this stuff the week of in a way that you couldn't before, that it was just going too difficult to, before this directed tape watch before the data, that a head coach really, he didn't have time to watch six games of a team before, but now you can find the specific blitzes for that team you're playing from all those six games and basically have a plan for how to attack them. So defense had to put more on their play.

They had to get more creative because offensive coaches basically were having answers. for all the stuff they were doing. You know, it's interesting is you didn't mention the grades, like PFF on a Monday morning's broken down the film, graded out every player in the game. How did the teams view that data? That was part of the offering, correct? Yes, and how that gets used is more for, again, directed tape watching.

I don't think anyone's looking at the grid and being like, oh, since he graded well, you know, let's draft this guy. It's like, oh, he graded well, let's see the positive. negatively graded plays is what you can go find. You're like, hey, here's all the place you did well. Let's all watch those. Or here's all the plays that were bad on tape because there's the negatively graded ones too.

Let's watch those. And I think that's where you get the value of the grades. It's not necessarily the number people see on Sunday night football, right? It's again directed tape watching. But what about when, you know, PFF would grade, let's just say, Washington's game against Philadelphia and they provide Washington as a client because they had all 32 teams as clients, correct? I'm pretty sure. Yeah. All 32. So, and they provided their grades of their own players. Did teams use that? Did they compare it to their own grades? You know,

how would teams utilize that information? I don't think they used to it at all to be on. And that's why you heard from them all the time. Yeah. You know, we take them a great Why? Why? I don't blame them. I don't blame them for doing that because they grade their own players. They go through and we're watching it. So, yeah, I don't think that was really factored in. Now, once it came to, like, hey, free agency, I know for a fact teams, we're looking at players' grades, and they've told us as much to, like, direct some of their scouting efforts. But, yeah, even I would say as a foreign PFF, have employee that grade is just like a directional thing. It's not necessarily an end-all be-all.

It definitely is not an end-all be-all. Yeah, I think the way guys have explained it to me before, it's like, look, we can grade, but at the same time, we don't necessarily know in every single play what the player's responsibility actually was, which, you know, that's a big piece of the missing information. I, you know, the way...

And we were grading, we were grading, like, did you do your job well? on a given play, which is valuable to a degree, but like, if the guy's good, he gets his job made harder by the office coordinator, by the defense coordinator. Like, if you're, if you're Lane Johnson, you'll get put on an island more than, you know, Josh Connolly. So that, that in and of itself is something that we've never got to really, you know, capture and agree, I think, effectively, that you'll,

always, that's why I said, like, it directs your tapewatching, not necessarily provides the full context. So I'm curious as to what NFL teams pay for pro football focuses, you know, services, or what they've been paying pro football focus for their services. And, you know, is it an annual deal? Is it a multi-year deal? Do you have any idea how that business relationship with, like, one team and one contract has worked.

I think they were multi-year contracts, and the numbers, I couldn't tell you. I was never my side of the business. I know, and they're still going on, too. That's what teamwork's bought was those contracts, because those are the hardest thing to do. And I was that PFS in 2012, and when I was there first, I think fewer than five clients. And to get to 32, it took, gosh, I want to say, like, late 2010. So almost six or seven years. Like that, that's the hardest thing. Sure.

All the, is getting into NFL buildings, getting them to even sign up for stuff on the outside is the hardest thing. And I think that was a big reason why teamwork, or big selling point for teamwork. Who was the first client of PFFs? Who was the first team? It was the giant, actually. And it was the year they won the Super Bowl, I believe, in 2011. 2011, yeah. 2011 season, which was like so serendipitous for PFF. Right. And all they really wanted, all they bought was we used to track location. Now, it used to still do, but the location of everyone on the football field was the

biggest thing they wanted before, ultimate, before the video watching tool, was just to get accurate where players lined up. And then what they did on the binopolis. That was the initial thing that we sold to an NFL team that no one had. And so that was what initially got us in the door with a bunch of people and that it just grew from there. 130 million, you said, was what you've heard, the sale price. I've seen it reported, you know, nine figures, so 100 million north of it. Chris Collinsworth bought a majority of the company in 2014.

That's been reported. I mean, we've all known as football fans that he's had a big stake in it. I don't know that I knew for sure that he was the majority owner. Was he the majority owner when it was sold last week? Yes, I believe he still was. I know they had brought on private equity in 2019, so I don't know what their deal was in terms of that, but he still owned the majority of the shares.

Wow, good for him. And then lastly, what will happen with the consumer product? Is that still going to be available where people can pay for it and get the grades, you know, and all the information that they provide for a fee? So that, I have heard something things. I don't know exactly what their plan is. The things I've heard that I know, one, they sold, they fired all but like three people on that side of the business.

It's still going to be, it's still under Chris Collinsworth's control. And they fired all but like three people on that. I've heard that they can't use the name PFF anymore, so it's going to have to rebrand. So those two things, really all I know, I think they will. And the last thing is that they're still going to offer something. I don't know if it's going to be premium stats because I don't know if they're going to license that with teamwork now or how that works. But those are really, that's it as far. And that's from like people who are literally still working there that I've talked to.

One of the three works that I've talked to that's really all they know, too, unfortunately. personally. Thanks for that. Really appreciate some of the insight on that. And certainly, the draft thoughts that you had. You can follow Mike, by the way, on X at Mike Renner underscore and get his latest mock draft. Appreciate it. Enjoy the next three weeks leading into the draft. Thanks, Mike. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for having me. I'll finish up the show with a final four smell test after these words from a few of our sponsors. A head, Boozer, that pulled deflected and stolen by Mullins. Carabat in two seconds.

Mullins tosses it out. Yukon goes in front. utterly impossible. One of the all-time moments in NCAA tournament history. Last week's elite eight game at Capital One Arena, Brailin Mullins from 35 feet out with four tenths of a second left to stun Duke. Yukon is in the final four's first game tomorrow. night against Illinois, the second game featuring Michigan and Arizona. This is a hell of a

final four. Both games, very short spreads. I'll get to that in a moment, and both games really could go either way. This segment of the show is brought to you by My Bookie, if you want to bet the Final Four, my bookie's got everything you need. They've got the game lines up, the totals up, the prop bets up. Currently, Illinois, a one and a half point favorite. over Yukon. The totals 1.40 in the game. And Michigan is a 1.5 point favorite over Arizona. The total in that one is 157 and a half. MyBooky's giving all of my listeners a 50% cash bonus when you go and sign up for the first time and make a deposit. Or if you're a returning customer, an existing customer at MyBooky and you make a new deposit, they'll give you a 50% percent. percent cash bonus. What is that? Some of you have asked me that recently. Very simply put, whatever you deposit, take half of that amount and add it to your account because that's what they're going to do for free. So if you deposit $300, they'll add another $150 into your account. Your

account balance will read $450. You'll have all of that to wager with. Take the free money from my bookie. To get access to it, you have to use. my promo code, DC reload. D-C-R-E-L-A-D. If there's something already written in the promo code section, just erase it and write DC reload. And you'll get access to a 50% cash bonus on either your first deposit as a first-time customer or as a returning customer on your new deposit. By the way, at my bookie, I was checking out the updated division odds for next year in the NFL. The NFC East has Philly right now as a minus 114 favorite. So nearly an even money favorite. Dallas is at plus 270. Then it's Washington at plus 550 and the Giants are at plus

700. Now they also have posted odds to make the playoffs in 2026. Washington is minus 319. for no and plus 244 for yes. So if you bet Washington to make the playoffs in 2026 and they did, if you bet $100, you'd win $244. If you bet $10, you'd win $24.40. They're plus 244 to make the playoffs minus 319 on no. So if you wagered $319 to win $100 on no. that's how that one works.

But all of their NFL futures numbers are up. Washington's over under number for wins is it seven and a half. But you've got to pay for that if you're going to go over minus 150 to go over Washington's seven and a half total. So I'm excited for both games tomorrow. I think they are two really good matchups. Honestly, I think they could go either way. was blown away with Arizona and have been in this tournament. I was blown away with Michigan, though, during the regular season. I think they are the two best teams. I think the key in that one

is Michigan has to be able to stop Arizona from getting to the rim. That's what they do. They don't shoot threes, but they pound you, driving the ball to the rim and then pounding you on the glass. I think Michigan's going to have to shoot the three well, and they're going to have to rebound well. I like Arizona to win the game, even though they're getting a point in a half. That's not the smell test. I have two smell test picks coming up here in a moment. But I do like Arizona, but these are two incredible basketball teams. And really, I think I read that in terms of a Ken Pomeroy, Ken Palm matchup, the highest rated both in combination, offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency matchup in NCAA tournament history since Ken POM started

to keep these numbers. So that's a phenomenal matchup. In the Yukon game, I like Illinois. I think Illinois is maybe too much for Yukon, but Yukon's so well coached. They're so tough. certainly, you know, from an Illinois standpoint, if you're Yukon, you've got to understand that Illinois during the regular season was not a great defensive team, but they have become that during the tournament. They have really done a great job, you know, defensively in their tournament

matchups. They held Houston to 55 in the Sweet 16, and then they held Iowa to 59 in the Elite 8 game. They held VCU to 55 in their second round game. This was not a good defensive team during the regular season. It has become in the tournament a very good defensive team. At the end of the season, they barely beat Maryland in College Park 78 to 72, and then they lost in their quarterfinal round game in the Big Ten tournament, 91 to 88 to Wisconsin. So they came into this tournament limping a bit,

not very good defensively, but they have turned it up defensively with really four outstanding defensive performances. Duke's a very good defensive team, too, so Yukon saw it last week. I love Illinois size. I love Keaton Wogler. I think he is a really good, you know, sort of tempo control point guard. Neither one of these teams is necessarily going to try to score 90 or 80 in the game. It was a little. It was. won't be quite what it would have been with Iowa and Yukon, but I think Yukon's going to try to keep this game on the slower pace side. Illinois's just got a lot of options and a lot of size. I like Illinois in this one. I like Wogler to control the tempo. I like Illinois to be very good

defensively as they've been and with some of their bigs be really good on the glass. I think Yukon's key to winning the game is can they get the same kind of game that they got from Reed Jr. in the post that they got from him against Duke? And then free throw shooting will be huge in both of these games. I like Illinois and Arizona to meet in the final on Monday night. Now, as far as the smell test goes, really neither game has a sizable public advantage. on the actual games themselves. The public is leaning in Arizona's direction, leaning in Yukon's direction,

but not by enough for me to give Illinois out or to give Michigan out. But they are playing the public is both overs. So I'm going under in both games. Under 140 in the Yukon, Illinois game, and under 157 and a half in the Arizona Michigan game. Two unders are the smell test picks for the final four.

17 and 13 so far in the tournament. But I have lost the last four picks. All three on Sunday. I had Duke. I had Tennessee and I had the Duke, Yukon under. All three of those lost. And then on Saturday went into the Purdue Arizona game,

17 and 9, and it certainly looked good at halftime, but it didn't hold up. So a red-hot start for this tournament at 17 and 9, but have lost the last four to fall to 17 and 13. Two unders, under 140 in the first game, under 157 and a half in the second game. All right, done for the day. Back on Monday, and we will then know who will be playing in the national. Championship game on Monday night.