The Kevin Sheehan Show - What Happened to Kyle Allen?

Episode Date: June 18, 2021

Kevin and Ben Standig (The Athletic) opened the show recapping and responding to Ben's interview with Ron Rivera where Rivera seemed to cut Kyle Allen out of the quarterback picture completely. The guys talked Washington Football defensive line and some Wizards' next-coach guesses too. Kevin finished reacting to Dwayne Haskins' press conference in Pittsburgh yesterday and a few predictions on the NBA games tonight.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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it matched halfway up to $1,000. Joining me to start the podcast today is my good friend Ben Standing from the athletic. Ben's podcast, Standing Room Only, is worth the listen. You can get it anywhere you get a podcast. Ben's heading on vacation for a couple of weeks, and I caught him right before he is leaving to go on vacation. And the reason I wanted you on the show is on the radio show this morning. I played these following two sound bites from your interview the other day with Ron Rivera.

We will play them one at a time. The first one, you will hear Ben get into a question that has nothing to do with quarterbacks. Listen to Ron Rivera's answer. But looking forward, training camp will be starting at the end of July in Richmond as the coach, but also as a person who does have to think about the bigger picture stuff. Who is a player that you're kind of interested in watching? or tracking when you get back to the training camp, both from the perspective of the head coach, but also with that front office mind?

Well, first and foremost, the most obvious person we're going to look at is going to be our quarterback position. And there's two people that we're going to be watching closely. And both Ryan and Taylor are two guys that are very valuable, very important to us going forward. So we'll be watching both those guys and watching their progress very, very close. I think it's going to be a very competitive battle. I think both guys want to be the guy, and that's going to be important to us as we go forward.

Ben is with us. First of all, really good interview with Ron Rivera, so I would urge everybody to go listen to it, standing room only. Secondly, you didn't, like, I'm guessing after listening to this interview that for whatever reason you chose not to really go down the path of talking quarterbacks with him,

Like that wasn't your intention, and yet the biggest news coming out of this interview were the quarterbacks, and we'll get to why in a second. But is it true that you really didn't have any questions on your list of questions dealing with quarterback? I had a quarterback question or two, but it was not number one for me in part because he'd said something the other day about the competition. And I'll be honest, like I still don't completely buy the idea that there's like that Ryan Fitzpatrick is in danger of not starting. week one, so I'm kind of whatever, but like, it wasn't, I didn't want to go straight to that because, you know, I wasn't sure how much time I had with him and I wanted to get some other topics that maybe were, you know, been sort of under-discussed. But then when he went there and then specifically says two players and then doesn't mention it's, you know, not Kyle Allen, I was like,

okay, well, I guess we'll go here now. Yeah, and so when he said, you know, first and foremost, the quarterback situation, there are two, we will be one. watching, obviously, because I'm going to play your follow-up question here in a moment, but it would have struck me the same way. It's like, wait a minute, he didn't even mention Kyle Allen. He talked about two. And so Ben followed it up with this follow-up question, and then you'll hear Ron Rivera's answer right afterwards. Well, you mentioned the quarterback. I'd be honest, I wasn't really even going to ask you about the QB1 competition because in my head, you know, Ryan Fitzpatrick, all the, if you do

like Taylor to tape, all the variables sort of go in his way, other than I guess you could say age, but in that case, it's a lot of experience on his side and you can factor in other things. Resumet, contract, you sign him on day one of free agency, essentially, so on and so on. But you've now mentioned him against Taylor Heinecke, essentially. Now, you did that last week to some degree, and you just did that now, which I was, if you had asked me two months ago, I would have maybe said Kyle Allen would have been more in that conversation. Has something changed for you over these last few weeks to make it more of those two guys? Something perhaps either what you've seen with Ryan or maybe what you've seen with Taylor?

No, I've always kind of felt that way going into it. I know, you know, Ryan has the job right now. And it's his to have. You know, I'm not going to say his to lose. I think that's the wrong way to look at that. It's his to have. And so, you know, he goes out and does the things that he's done in the past. past that do the things that we saw in OTAs in minicamp, the way that he's built a rapport with his teammates on both sides of the ball, I think that's important. And so we'll see. But I'm not going to discount Taylor. The things that Taylor did last year, the momentum he built up as a player, you know,

you've got to give them equal opportunities and equal chance. And that's what I want to do. I want to create that here. I think it's important. It's important for everybody to see it. Players, coaches, I think that's how you develop your football team. And I told you guys, you know, I've said this before. You know, if I had it all to do over again last year,

I would have created that competition for every position. I didn't last year because I thought we had a young guy that needed to get a lot of reps, a lot of work. And I tried to create that situation. and now hindsight, which being 2020, I would have done it different. So, you know, first and foremost, the quarterback situation, there are two we will be watching. That's what he said to your first question that had nothing to do with quarterbacks. And then I've always felt that there were two, that this is the way it was.

And, you know, even though he says it's Ryan's job to have, which, you know, he gets around saying Ryan's job to lose because he's one of these coaches. He doesn't want to have the context of negative words. And then he says about Taylor Heineke, he's going to give him equal opportunity, equal chances. Everybody needs to see that. And again, nothing about Kyle Allen. So what do you make of the fact that Kyle Allen has been completely, at least based on this conversation with you, completely dismissed?

as part of any of the equation you would think. Starting quarterback competition, which I don't really believe there is one, or even a backup quarterback competition. What did you think? Yeah, it was interesting. I mean, I have thought all along that, look, it's not what I thought. Ron Rivera traded for Kyle Island last year.

He said at the end of the year, famously, that he thinks that he would have won as many games with Kyle Island and I did with Alex Smith, which I think felt like a little bit of a shot ahead of, with Alex Smith, semi-heeled turned over the last, you know, as he was leaving town. So I was assuming that, look, Kyle Allen was coming up with a series injury, right? So we weren't sure there, but then he shows up. He's practicing at OTAs right off the bat.

Looks to be real reasonable. I'm sure he's limited a little bit, but, you know, it would be pretty good on that front. And so therefore, I was assuming, okay, if we're going to talk about this competition, I kept thinking who this competition is for number two, not for number one. And then when he says all this, it's like, well, wait a minute. You didn't mention Kyle Allen. And so I mean, just as first, I'm inside baseball, like how I'm trying to think through this. I don't exactly know how long I have for him for Rivera at somewhat limited time.

And I, you know, he's a key kid and filibuster, so I don't want to, like, ask too many questions on this. And if he's giving me the hint at Kyle Allen, the third quarterback, which he clearly did. I was like, do I really want to burn this? So I did specifically bring Kyle Allen up by name. Okay, I'm at least entering it into the conversation. I've now said that out loud. You can take this wherever you want. and he chose to ignore it, which said to me that, yeah, yeah,

I mean, on top of the fact that he said that there were two people they were looking at, and, you know, he wasn't one of them. So I don't know. I guess what's more interesting now, so if we take him in his word, that it fits Patrick versus Heineke for the one, I kept in looking at the 53-man roster all this time, keep thinking, man, how are they going to fit some of these spots in if they're keeping, among other things, three quarterbacks?

I would assume it's still keeping three because you'll throw away quarterback you think can play, but at the same point, now I'm at least going to contemplate that as we go forward here in terms of how do I, you know, when we start getting it, what can you keep seven receivers, nine defensive linemen, whatever it is, you know, that's at least something I hadn't even considered before. Now, at least ponder it for a 10 second. Well, let's ponder it for more than 10 seconds. Do you think that there's a legitimate chance that Kyle Allen isn't on this football team when the final cuts are made? I mean, look, last year they went through four quarterbacks, and I'm always of a believer

even under normal non-pandemic injury seasons, you keep three quarterbacks. It's too important of a position if things happen, and you know, you can't be short-handed at that, right? I mean, you know, like in the scenario where you've released Kyle out, and let's say Stephen Montez is sticking around on the practice squad, he's, you know, one snap away from at a minimum being the backup, and, you know, that seems like a scary move. So to me, you keep three quarterback. So I would think Connell Allen is good to go.

But at the same point, if he's clearly the three, then I think at least it puts, that's why I'm saying at least it's a little more in jeopardy versus the two guys are battling for two. Now we're like, okay, well, you know, either guy you could feel possibly good about using. I'm not thinking he wouldn't use Kyle Allen. Obviously, he's used them many times, and he clearly liked them.

But I would still say he's making the team. But like I said, now at least it feels like, okay, he's definitely the third. Now I can at least consider what I'd rather have, you know, that punt return or receiver make the team, that extra defensive back. And plus, you know, we'll see about injuries happen, right? You know, there could be those situations where you don't want to do this, but all of a sudden, you know, somebody, some starter has tweaked something

and is going to miss the first two games and now how do you manage, you know, your roster, you know, that's everything. I mean, he didn't even mention Kyle Allen. I mean, his name never, You gave him the opportunity to mention his name. You gave him the opportunity to say, you know, we really like Kyle too, but Kyle's coming off that injury. And we think he's going to be healthy, but he's got to prove that he's going to be healthy.

And if he is, you know, he could be, you know, obviously a guy that could play well as well. He was completely and utterly dispatched from the conversation. And I just thought it was weird. But I think the other part of the conversation is also interesting because it's not the first time we have heard Ron Rivera now talk about, you know, the real competition. He wants to certainly at the very least create the illusion that there is going to be a QB1 competition. And now he's made it very clear that it would be between Ryan Fitzpatrick and Taylor Heineckee, with no threat of Kyle Allen being involved in it.

And I thought one of the interesting things that he said in his answer to you is he made it very clear that it's Ryan's job to have. All right, he's the front runner. And then he talked about, though, giving Taylor Heineke equal opportunity, equal chances. And then to me, the significant part of that answer came afterwards when he made it a point that everybody needs to see that. Everybody needs to see it, needs to believe that you can earn playing time. by competing and out-competing your competitors.

He wants part of this culture revamp to include the belief among his players that you can earn it. You know, and when he said that, he said last year we didn't do that. That was a mistake. And you and I have both talked to enough coaches over the years, and they'll tell you, you have to have a competitive environment. In some cases, you can't because you don't have enough good players to have legitimate competitions, but they always want competition and they always have told me, you know, look, the players know. And so if somebody's beating the shit out of another guy competitively in practice or in preseason games

and they're like, this is obvious, you can't go against what's obvious. but you also want the idea that players can compete, even though they might be second or third on the depth chart. And remember, I think back to the Jeremy Reeves Eric Reed thing, right? You know, he wanted to sign Eric Reed, but he wanted Eric Reid to earn his spot. And Eric Reed didn't want to sit a week or whatever it would have been on the practice squad and earn the spot.

And he said, well, I'm not going to do that then. I'm going to give the guy that's been working at it. And, you know, this is a culture change, and he gave Reeves the opportunity. And so I think a lot of this, and I want your reaction to it, I think a lot of it is, it's very important for him to create a competitive culture. And you can't do that by handing the job to somebody at the most important position, unless that somebody has already earned it. Like Matt Stafford, with all due respect to Ryan Fitzpatrick, would have earned it. You know, if they traded for Deshawn Watson or Aaron Rogers, they would have earned it. But Ryan Fitzpatrick, even though he's popular, is a career journeyman.

You know, so he doesn't want to just hand it to him. And I think the other part of it, too, is if his goal is to create the illusion or even some level of reality of a competition, it's easier to do it with two guys than it is three. Yeah, certainly to your latter point, when I had Jake Gruden on my podcast at various points this year, the idea of the quarterback competition, because I think at that point when maybe the first time he and I talked with Washington and hadn't even picked out in Fitzpatrick yet,

he was like, whatever you did, you can't have three people involved. I learned that lesson. That's not going to work. So yes to that. That was one of the things we've been trying to get to Ron throughout the whole offseason. It was like, okay, you keep talking about a competition. like who's in it because three themes unwieldy. We've all witnessed it whether you have or not.

But anyway, but to your point about the competition, it goes to show just, you know, for those who are already aware of how important the quarterback position is, it's important from the wins and losses on Sundays, but it is also a tone setter on a variety of fronts. Like, it's not like we're talking about competition for the starting running back spot or the two wide receivers or the two cornerbacks or the two defensive ends. Like, you know, some of the situations, are beyond obvious. And he's,

there's only one kicker, punter, and long snapper, even in camp. So it's not like there's, like, competition everywhere. And it's, of course, also not completely realistic. But there is a fair amount of competition across the board, particularly for some of the reserve spots, and some spots along in the starting lineup, right, tackle, right?

You know, it's one of those things, if we're going to say third receiver is a competition. You know, if that's a starting spot, that, you know, that's one and so on. But quarterback, it's a big deal. And obviously last year, he's now famously said he screwed the pooch with the Dwayne Haskins thing. And, you know, the circumstances were different. I don't even give him completely a – I gave him a little bit of a pass because of the whole COVID situation.

And, you know, the whole thing was weird. But, yeah, he is – he is claiming he is saying that he isn't just going to give it to the guy who – I guess I would even just say this. Ryan Fitzpatrick has never played a game for this team. But you know who has? Taylor Heineke. You know who gave them life against Tampa Bay? Taylor Heineke.

You know who was the guy that Chase Young is praising and doing the whole Heineke thing and getting national attention is Taylor Heineke. And I suspect that Rivera's like, hey, you know what, I can't ignore this. And then on top of the fact that he did play well, it was the best start that any quarterback here had. And you and I talked about this the other day on the radio with I mentioned that, like, Kenzie and Peasy the other day, when asked sort of what's the step for Taylor Heineke and he just said one word, health. And I think we both were sort of like a little bit different on this, because I took that as he's basically saying he thinks Taylor Heineke could start

if he could ever stay healthy. And that's not so that's different than just saying where a lot of quarterbacks don't go with the, well, you know, you got to read the defense is better. You got to do this, whatever. That was like for me the first time of, oh, okay, wait a minute, they really actually do see Heineke as, you know, as somebody who could actually play now. And that was where I think I started putting him ahead of Kyle Allen.

I'm still not putting him side by side to Fitzpatrick on the depth chart. But I do think the whole combination in the fact that Heineke was the guy that spurred the team on in that playoff game and that Ryan Fitzpatrick, like you said, is the guy who's been around the block but hasn't been able to be stable in anywhere, that it's an opportunity for Rivera to stick to his word.

We're going to have a competition, not just right tackle, not just back-up, cornerback, but even at quarterback, even for a guy who's way more famous than the other. guy because this is what we're going to do here. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's a really good point to point to point out that Taylor Heineke's actually started in a playoff game, and Ryan Fitzpatrick never has. And that Taylor Heaney's a little career never has, right? Taylor He's done something, you know, he's played five quarters, five quarters in a burgundy and gold uniform, and

Ryan Fitzpatrick hasn't. With that said, though, I mean, I think a couple of things need to be said or repeated for emphasis because I think I've said these things before. Number one is he did play well against Tampa. There's no doubt about it. One of the things I said the day after the game was I'd like to see them bring him back. I was intrigued. He played a very good game. With that said, he didn't almost beat Tom Brady. We have to get away from exaggerating that, you know, Taylor Heineke had Tom Brady, you know, on the run, had him on the run. Had him on the brink and that Washington somehow was the one team that had a chance against the eventual Super Bowl champions. That's not true. The Saints had a really good chance in the postseason against them.

The Packers had a really good chance. But I guess it is fair to say that Taylor Heineke played better against the Buccaneers than Patrick Mahomes did. But then again, Devin White, their best defensive player, wasn't on the field in the wild card game. I'll never forget the way I felt watching that game, I never legitimately thought Washington had a chance to win the game. It's the way I felt going through it. They had the ball a couple of times down one score and couldn't do it. If he had had a late game 3123 drive to score and they got the two-point conversion and they won the game in overtime, it would have been a legendary performance. But he didn't do that. He had the opportunity a couple of times down one score and they didn't do anything

with it when they had those opportunities. It was 18 to 16 or 21 to 16 and they punted in three plays. And then at 3123, if I recall, he took a massive sack and that pretty much ended the game for all intents and purposes. So there's that. Then there's this. The actions speak louder than any Ron Rivera words. When the season ended, their number one goal was to find a starting quarterback. tried to trade for Matt Stafford. They were rumored to be, you know, intrigued with what Sam Darnold, Derek Carr, Mitch Trubisky, who am I forgetting? The two rookie quarterbacks, drafted quarterbacks in Justin Fields and Trey Lance, if it had broken right. And then in OTA days, six of them, and in three mini-camp days, he did not take one first team.

Snap. So this may change when we get to training camp, and maybe they were really blown away with some of what Taylor did in meetings, and maybe Ryan's really behind because he hasn't been in the system. And when he said, we're going to give him equal opportunity, equal chances, let's see if he lives up to it. Let's see if Taylor Heineke gets first team reps. Let's see if Taylor Heineke plays with the first team and maybe gets a start in one of the three preseason games. That'll tell me something. but it'll also be, to me, Ben, a waste of time if they don't believe he really can start. If it's for optics, I don't want that. I want Ryan Fitzpatrick, who is new to the system, Taylor Heineke, isn't, to get every rep

if there is no doubt in their minds he's the starting quarterback. Yeah, I agree. I'll give Rivera's benefit of the doubt on the optics thing. I mean, he'll, like you said, actions sort of speak louder than words. He says a lot of things. He's not, you know, whatever. I mean, you know, coaches say things and so on. So we'll see, we'll see what ultimately what happened.

And, yeah, you know, Fitzpatrick is the one who was getting all the reps with the ones in a minicamp in OTAs, which is why when people were, anybody was saying that the Heineke looked better. I mean, well, yeah, but Chase Young was ever on the field when He was out there and William Jackson and so on. But so there's that aspect. I will say this. thought about this until sort of re-doing, rethinking about everything here in last few days. And you're right. Day one, free agencies, the tampering period opened, and they signed Ryan Fitzpatrick.

And I have said, and you've said, and others have said, well, that's a sign right there, too, right? Like, they didn't wait five days to do something. This wasn't like an afterthought. They went after Ryan Fitzpatrick. And Rivera has said that, you know, after Stafford, Fitzpatrick was an easy pivot for them to go to. But let's also not forget this. before that, so after the, in between missing Stafford and signing Fitzpatrick,

they did resign Heineke. And what I think, I remember thinking at the time was, boy, that seems kind of odd in that, was Taylor Heineke, did he have a market? Was there a rush for people out there to get him?

I know in talking to people around the league there was a sense that he had a minimum, earned himself a backup job, which is not nothing, but like, you know, in terms of like, do you really have to sign him in February?

Because what if another opportunity opened itself up? Now you maybe have taken away a potential roster spot. You know, part of the thing with even drafting a quarterback was, okay, cool, but now you're cutting somebody or getting rid of somebody who is a proven NFL quarterback. I have proven maybe it's a bit much. You know, it looks to be an NFL quarterback.

That's not something you just do sort of automatically. So Heineke's at least taking up space. But I guess the more if we go on here, it's not that he's taking up space. They actually seem to buy that he could be somebody. Now, again, whether that means he's QB1 or it just means, hey, he's an interesting piece to have, and he's shown the gumption that we need. You know, I kind of look, what Hineke intrigues me is that I love the basketball guys who come off the bench who just bring energy no matter what's happening. They're almost the irrational confidence guys, as I think Bill Sima uses that term, like the guys who doesn't matter how bad your team is playing.

This is the guy who brings energy. Heineke feels like that guy. And actually, so does Ryan Fitzpatrick. That's always been his charm as well. No matter how bleak things are, he comes in and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, he feels like that. can do something. I will just say also this on the quarterback thing. I don't know if I said this on my podcast or your radio show or talking to my cat.

I don't know. But the one thing for Ryan Fitzpatrick that I would be worried about is, even though I'm saying, I think he's QB1, you know, at some point when you are put in a box of whatever that box is, right, it is hard to shake a reputation. I mean, just to use my own self. For years, I was the guy that everybody on the radio would bring on to talk any topic because I was covering almost every team. And it took a long time for people to be like, oh, wait, he's actually only covering the football

team. Even now, people still want to talk to me as you do, which I like talking about the Wizards or whatever. But I'll get Georgetown questions once in a while. My point is, like, it takes a while to shake a reputation or a viewpoint that people have of you. And Fitzpatrick is a guy with a viewpoint perception is you can bench him. You can actually do this.

This isn't complicated. There are other players that we see really, oh, man, how are you going to bench that guy? This seems like it could be a problem. that's part of the issue we have. We debate with, like, the safety spot. Really, you're going to bench Laining Collins? That doesn't seem like it's going to go well, because why would you've never even considered it before?

You know, like, we've never landed Collins is a starter. It's like the star. You're not benching that guy. But if you can bench Fitzpatrick in your head, then it becomes easier to consider other things of other things warrant consideration. And I guess it seems like there's at a minimum fronting that Heineke does, and perhaps there's more than that. I think you're right that Ryan Fitzpatrick has proven over a long period of time that you can bench him and he is still about team and he is still going to be ready when he's called on again.

But I don't think they paid him 10 million bucks for one year and we've even heard Rivera refer to the possibility that we didn't sign him for just one year. We think it could be a couple of years. I don't think they signed him because he's easy to bench. I don't think that that went into the thinking. Now, it could come into the thinking, you know, if he doesn't clearly beat out Taylor Heineke or if at some point he's playing poorly. And, you know, it might even come into play if they decide, you know what, we're going to try something different here.

We're going to play them both. We're going to play them both. They were so even in training camp and we really like Taylor and we're going to play them both somehow. Who knows? Look, one of the things that is without question. in a fact. If Taylor Heineke really is a guy that was overlooked for seven years and was picked off a scrap heap like Kurt Warner was,

although Kurt Warner was playing in, you know, in the Arena League, right, the Arena League. And he is the real deal. And the 15 pounds of muscle that he put on makes him less injury prone. It would be the best thing for the organization. The best thing for the organization would be to find their long-term guy and a guy that they didn't barely even sign. You know, they gave him what, 750 grand and guaranteed money? Like, I know that they were quick to sign him,

but they were quick to sign him because, you know, at the very least, they were thinking, we need, you know, we were intrigued by him, and he can be a backup, and he's super cheap right now. he's not that much more expensive than even the exclusive rights-free agency contract that Kyle Allen got from them. I mean, what's he making? A million bucks this year, and Kyle Allen's making $875,000. I think that's what it is. But I do understand this idea that, okay, they could be super intrigued.

They really liked what they saw. By the way, his strength is really as an extended. the play improvising quarterback, which, by the way, Ron Rivera talked about one of the things that he likes in a quarterback and one of the things they always loved with Cam Newton. And it would be phenomenal for the organization. If he clearly beat out, won the job, even if it's not for the opener, but it's early in the season, and it became clear that they've got their starting quarterback for the next, you know, five to seven years.

because he is 29 years old, right? I think he's 28. Yeah, he's not, he's not a kid. He's not, you know, he's not 38. But it would be, you know, he's even beyond whatever the age, Kurt Warner was, if you're looking for sort of the rack to riches story, crowding Kurt Warner was younger, right? I think.

He wasn't that much younger. I mean, I think actually Kurt Warner may have been close to 30 when he got. Oh, was he that old? I'm going to look that up because he retired at 40, and it was basically a 10-year run, a 10-to-11-year run. You might be, you might correct. And like I said, I mean, just to sort of, like, you know, because we're talking this out and all that, like I said. 28, you're right.

28. Warner got the start when Trent Green went down in 1998. He was 299. He was 28 years old. So anyway, like I said, I maintain that I think Ryan Fitzpatrick starts. I, again, wasn't prepared to really even go into this conversation that much. for Barry in part because I was like, yeah, okay, whatever. You're just going to keep telling me about this quarterback competition that I don't personally

buy, so I would rather spend my time talking about other things. So I still believe it would be Fitzpatrick. Yes, they did sign him to vote to the bigger deal. And that's part of it. My actual question that I was prepared to ask, what I was actually going to say to Rivera, because I was, at least in my pregame notes, because I was feeling cocky, I was going to say to Rivera, okay, look, I'm not even going to ask you about QB1 because honestly, like, I get.

what you're selling, but I don't buy it. We look at the contract, look at the experience. You should have you know what? You should have said it that way and the reaction would have been really telling. You know, well, whatever. You did a great job in the interview. Don't get me wrong. But the fact that you thought about

asking it that way or presenting it that way would have, the response would have been really interesting. Right. Well, like I said, he kind of threw me. I gave him a quasi, you know, open-ended softball to just say, more or less, you know, who is going ahead to training camp, who is somebody you're looking forward to seeing? And, you know, he went, you know, I'm waiting for him to talk about, you know, I don't

know, William Bradley King or Beambi Brown or Curtis Samuel, who hadn't been practicing, whatever. Now he went straight to the quarterback. So, yeah, that's kind of, I guess, not through me, but had me change course with where we were going. But, yeah, no, it was interesting, for sure. I mean, that's why these things to me are always fascinating. It isn't always what they say, but what don't they say, in this case, not mentioning Kyle Allen,

how they say it, who brings up, you know, when given an answer, where do you take it? You know, sometimes you work, hey, I didn't ask you that question, but sometimes where they go is more interesting anyway, because it's one looks to their mind. It doesn't matter what I want to ask. So, yeah, it's all interesting. And, yeah, he gave a good answer, gives it something to ponder ahead of training camp. But like I said, at the end of the day, you know, if you're telling me, Justin Herbert, Week one is facing a quarterback on the team that's not Ryan Fitzpatrick, I would be surprised. I would be shocked.

There was something else that Ron Rivera told you that I want to get to about something you and I have talked about related to the defensive line in the future of the defensive line. We will do that right after this word from one of our sponsors. Ben Standing, who of course writes for the athletic, comes on the podcast and the radio show with me a lot. had a really good interview with Ron Rivera on his podcast, Stand a Groom Only, you can get it anywhere. You get a podcast. He also addressed something that you and I have talked about

that you've brought up and initiated as a topic in the past, either on the podcast or radio show, which is the issue of how you keep all of these young defensive linemen that you're going to have to sign to contract extensions. What did he say when you brought that up? Yeah, you know, his basic take, well, I'd be just to sort of preface it for anybody who hasn't heard the interview yet, but like I started the interview talking about the fact that we always ask some questions based on the fact that he's the coach of the football team because that's the prison we get this person from.

But he's more than that. He is the guy that has final say in the front office, and therefore I was sort of curious, you know, how he's been, how he's been maneuvering that in his brain as he looks at these different circumstances. And even the question that led to the quarterback's answer was about when you, go into training camp, both from the perception of the head of the coach, but also the head of the front office, what player are you kind of looking at? And so

the same thing to go in that line with the defensive lineman, it was like, look, obviously, as a coach, you want these guys on your team for as long as possible, assuming that they all continue to improve and play to their abilities. And if they do, obviously, you'll have one of the best defensive lines in the league, not just on paper, but in reality.

But realistically, how do you keep all these guys? starting with John Allen right now, they're going to be up for extensions one year after the next, plus there's Matt Ionitis, whose contract is up after the 22 season, and also a Ionitis salary cap

hit jumps up next year. How do you do that? How do you maintain all these guys? And I know I've seen people say, well, who cares? Just sign them. It's not that easy. There is a salary cap.

And I don't think it's realistic, personally, to say that you're going to just keep, you're just going to keep them all, because, you know, if you're putting all the money into this one position, He mentioned that they're fortunate right now. They don't have an expensive quarterback. That's true, but the defensive line is going to be the expensive quarterback pretty soon

if everybody starts getting extensions starting on Allen. And he basically said, you know, without obviously tipping his hand in any one direction, look, you've obviously liked to keep them, but you need to have fair contracts because, and obviously that may sound obvious and simplistic, but at least it made sense to say, look, we can't, you don't know what, we just had a pandemic. The salary cap went down. We don't know what's going to happen. Sure, it's probably going to keep going up.

But, you know, you have to have spare contracts to ensure that you're doing what's best you can, not just for keeping some players, but for the overall roster management. And, you know, like I said, I don't let very know that he tipped his hand in any way with it with John Allen or anything else. And yet, he does have plenty of time to wait on Chase Young as an example. But you can't just make these decisions in isolation. If you give John Allen an extension, I personally, Ben Zandig would say that means that at least, one of those other guys is gone, if not two, if you include Matt Ionitis, because you can't realistically pay three defensive linemen or four defensive linemen, I should say, you know,

$18 plus million of annual average salary, because it's just, that's overweighting at one spot, even if they're all good. So, yeah, I do think that's something to keep an eye on here, especially now that we're dealing with the John Allen extension. I would presume he'll get one, but it's, again, if he does, that says something perhaps about what's going to happen with the other guy. Yeah, that's definitely an interesting thing to keep an eye on. I think a lot of it will have to do with, you know, the overall salary cap increases over the

next few years, especially with the new TV deals, you know. And, you know, whether or not they have guys who want to be a part of something special for a longer period of time or whether they have guys that want to break the the bank. And they may have one or two of those guys that have the ability to do that. A lot of that will come into play. I enjoyed his answers to those, to your questions, and you sort of elaborated on some of them, but go listen to the interview with Ron Rivera. There was a lot more to it on Ben's podcast. He asked him about, you know, landing Collins and his role and some other things defensively. It's totally worth the listen.

All right, go start your vacation, and we will talk when you get back. I will just plug really quickly. You know how I just said that it takes a while for people to assume that I'm only urge to view me as a football team guy. Well, then I screw up by doing today. I wrote a story with Fred Katz and David Aldrich about the Wizards coaching candidates because I'm an insane person. So you can read that on the athletic, too, because obviously the Wizards and he didn't

coach. So go read that. All right. So tell me real quickly, give me your top three. Well, basically, we just have some fun with it, we did a draft. That way it gets the way to sort of talk about a bunch of different candidates. We drafted four people. I had the third pick of the group.

So my first pick was Kenny Atkinson after Fred had already taken Sam Cassell, who on Fred's podcast. I'm sorry. I got confused. I thought you were saying you were having a draft of like the, teams that have the opening. So you were just drafting for the Wizards. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Yeah, yeah. Just drafting candidates for the Wizards. And, you know, one, look, I was an advocate of moving on from Scott Brooks for all kinds reasons. And when you lay out the candidates, obviously any assistant, who knows, no matter

who it is. Any assistant on any team, no idea. I mean, people could say that person will be great. Nobody knows until they're actually in that spot. But even just from sort of the retread. get people between Kenny Askinson, Dave Yeager, Mike Dan Tony, there are a lot of candidates that, like, it's almost comical that was even anybody that's debating that they shouldn't have made a switch,

not saying the Wizards will get these people. But if they want to go to the experience, right, like I said, I think Kenny Atkinson, is somebody that, to me, is intriguing. Also, Steve Clifford, yeah, Steve Clifford hasn't had, like, the best records, but I really have always liked him, for sure. And then, you know, you go down on the,

the assistant coaches, you know, on my team, I did draft Becky Hammond. I do think, I would almost be surprised at this point, especially considering the number of openings, if there isn't the first female hired as a head coach, whether it's her, Carol Lawson was discussed in this exercise as a possible candidate. And then, you know, there's a bunch of other assistant coaches down the line for sure.

So, you know, I guess what my point is, like, the Wizards have, there are a lot of teams to need to coach, but the Wizards certainly have their share of, options that if they make a reasonable move, which I think if Tommy Shepard's in charge for real, they will. They'll have that opportunity that they should be in a good position to get somebody who hopefully takes them to another step. For those of you that didn't listen to the podcast yesterday, go listen to it.

Jay Wright, his name came up from Tommy, and I asked around, and I know that Tommy and Jay Wright know each other pretty well. I think Jay Wright would be insane to leave Villanova, especially for this job, personally. But it's one of those things right now. If you had held, if I had been a part of the draft, I would have probably gone with some crazy names like Jay Wright just to be out there a little bit. But I hope that Sam Cassell interviews well. I hope he gets an interview. I hope he interviews well.

I hope he is who I think he is from a basketball X as an O's standpoint. I want somebody that offensively can scheme it up, can create movement that is less iso ball. I also don't think, Ben, and this will be the last thing, and then I will legitimately let you run. You brought this up. I think of the job openings right now. You know, it's in the second tier. Like, it's clear to me that Dallas, you know, Boston, and New Orleans are the top three job openings. You have to have, you know, high-level talent or you're not going to have a chance to contend.

You have that in Boston with a potential top five player in Tatum, Zion and New Orleans, and Luke in Dallas. You know, the Portland, Orlando, Indiana, and Washington situations are, you know, what they are. They are, I think the Westbrook-Beal thing is in the eye of the beholder. I think there will be coaches that will say, first of all, somebody that hasn't had the opportunity, and this is their only opportunity, they're going to take the gig. Somebody that has a choice is going to look at this, and they're going to say, I know I can win 45 to 49 games and finish, you know, in the top five, you know, probably between four and six in the east and be in the postseason and maybe even have a chance

to win a series, but I also don't know that I can perform well in the postseason with the roster as constructed. And then some others may say, no, I can coach Westbrook up, I can slow him down, I can get more out of Beals all-around game, and I'm a believer in Daniel Gafford and Rui Hachamura as two guys that are going to be stars over the next couple of years, or certainly Rui. And oh, by the way, we're going to go get Tim Hardaway Jr. to add, you know, a really big time shooter to put, you know, around Russ and Beal as well. And the job could be very attractive. But not everybody is going to be looking at it saying, ooh, Westbrook and Beal, that is an opportunity. Not everybody will look at it that way. 100% I mean I I kind of view it as like you said

It's not you know It's a step all of those other teams that don't have You know there's no don't get you know There's no don't there's no Tatum here Ascending talent Who could be stars in this league for the next decade But you know I mean

Beal obviously is great But the Westbrook part of it I think in particular is You know problematic as you're sort of laying out If you're if you're a coach Like I always believe you want to be more like a Joe Gibbs Gibb to adapt your talent than a Steve Spurrier Or I got a system and we're just what we're doing, but at the same point, you want to implement what you want to do somewhat,

and Westbrook is going to be a big challenge for any coach to do that, which is why I thought maybe Scott Brooks had a, had a chance to stay. But that's why I was looking at more like guys like an Askinson or a Clifford guys, who I think are pretty good, but their options may not be as high. Where some other people, like if you have multiple options, I just can't imagine that the Wizards would definitively be higher on your list, But at the same point, you know, there's also, like, you're outside the box, thought of Jay Wright.

I had not thought about him. I did in my head ponder Calipari, but I don't see the Wizards paying what it would cost to get him. I even pondered for half a second Patrick Gwing, even though I'm sort of dismissive of Georgetown as like a turnaround program the way people are because of a big East tournament. At the same time, Patrick Gwing does have the credibility as, you know, who he is. He has now been a coach, at least at that level, and he was a long-time assistant. Again, I'm not really saying him.

I didn't think about it too much. But in terms of the outside of the box thing, I think that to me is the most interesting part of this. Like, even for myself, I have to stop now thinking that I know what's going to happen based on my years of covering the team, which I think largely I think I've been very good in terms of my assumptions what would happen because I do.

No things, but if Tommy Shepherd is really in charge, we've already seen that when he's made, in terms of his roster moves, he has not followed Ernie Grunfeld's path, even though he was Ernie Grunfeld's number two for many years. The Wizards have done a lot of creative things, or at least done them more often with the roster over his time than they did previously. So we'll see. I don't know what his position will be.

Could they, you know, going with a Clifford act, I guess you could say it's like bringing back a version of Scott Brooks. By the way, you know, the Wizards, the last time they hired a coach who wasn't essentially a retread was Leonard Hamilton in what, 2000. Every coach since has previously had head coaching experience. So, you know, maybe if nothing else. Just do something different from that perspective. Doug Collins. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, and Tommy's been around for most of that, not all, but most of it.

So, you know, I don't know, maybe his mindset is that, or maybe he says this is the time to be bold, be different. And that's where I think going, you know, outside the box, like you said with the Jay Wright, or, you know, the assistant coach, whether it's Becky Hammond. And I pick the different assistant coach. I'll let you read that one to see who I pick. But, yeah, I think, you know, there can be good. Like I said, there's 12 names.

I didn't mention all of them because I already forgot who was David and Fred picked. But yeah, it was a fun exercise, and we'll see what happened. All right. Stop talking hoops. People are going to get you confused with what you really are, which is an outstanding reporter for the Washington football team. Have a great vacation. I'll talk to you in a couple weeks.

Thanks, man. Ben Standing, everybody. When we come back, Dwayne Haskins spoke yesterday in Pittsburgh, and I'll recap the Brooklyn, Milwaukee game from last night. Right after this word from a few of our sponsors. I'll finish up with two quick topics, the NBA game from last night, which I'll finish up with, and Dwayne Haskins, who spoke for the first time in Pittsburgh to the media.

I think it's the first time. But in the wake of minicamp finishing up, they were requests to talk to Dwayne Haskins. So Dwayne Haskins, as a Pittsburgh, Steeleer quarterback talked to the media, and a lot of the questions dealt with what happened in Washington. And I actually watched it. I wanted to see his demeanor. You know, there were criticisms of him in the past about coming off as aloof. I always felt it was maturity and age, but I wanted to see what he looked like, to see if he was comfortable. And I was impressed.

Like I think that he, at least based on what he said and the way he handled himself, that, you know, this is a new opportunity and he doesn't want to blow it. He said, you know, a few things that were interesting. He said, the experience in Washington was, quote, for sure, humbling, closed quote. And then he said, quote, I don't want to get into it as far as how everything went down. I just wanted to be in a place where I felt like I was wanted and I feel like I'm wanted here. So I'm just thankful for the opportunity to be somewhere where I just feel I can be myself, I can play ball, and not have to worry about all the other stuff, closed quote. He said in continuing to talk about Washington, he said, quote, it's in the past.

You have a relationship with your ex and kind of want to leave it there. You want to move on and be with the new person and enjoy who you're with and try to let that past go, closed quote. he was asked if he was surprised that he was released when he was released and he said I wouldn't necessarily say that I was surprised it was just part of the business I wasn't necessarily the people that were brought in by the new coaching staff and understanding that this is a business and realizing that as the season went on things weren't going the way that we both wanted them to go being able to be here now

in this spot we can work hard and be able to figure things out together I'm just grateful for the opportunity Washington gave me, but it wasn't completely surprising, but it was also definitely unfortunate to be able to be released the way that I was. But just coming here to Pittsburgh, I want to prove myself to the coaching staff and my teammates about how much I love football. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be here and show them that my mind is in the right place and I'm willing to work to be able to show my talents and be able to work and earn a spot here. I tried the best that I could in Washington, and it just didn't work out the way that I wanted it to, but I'm grateful to be here in Pittsburgh and just thankful for the opportunity

to have another shot. He said, my expectations are to make everyone who decided to take a chance on me look good and just work as hard as I possibly can and let my work speak for itself. Just closed quote. it was very much, and I watched it was like nine minutes plus. It was very much a, that was in the past, I'm here, I've got to prove to them, and I want to prove to them that I can do this. They took a chance on me, and he said something about, you know, this is a day-to-day process, and I just have to be prepared and give the best version of myself each and every day. So, you know, I hope he got some, you know, good advice. I hope he learned from the situation here. I hope he doesn't dwell on the past and but learns from it.

And the bottom line with a guy like Dwayne is nobody questions his talent. Nobody questions whether or not like in a game situation he's going to fold versus being up to it. The bottom line is he just wasn't very mature in his preparation. He wasn't ready to go out there. He wasn't prepared enough, and no one in Washington helped him become a professional. Now, a lot of that is on him. Hopefully in Pittsburgh, they will allow him and teach him, you know, what it means to be a pro and how pros prepare for the opportunities that they have.

Lastly, I just wanted to mention about the NBA game last night. Milwaukee tied up their series three games apiece. Yannis was great. I thought it was the best game that Yannis has had. I thought that he specifically didn't settle. I also thought Brooklyn looked tired defensively, which created more opportunities for him to go downhill and get to the rim. For the first time in this postseason, Yonis didn't attempt one three-point shot. He also shot six. 60% from the free throw line, which is amazing for him. That elevated, by the way, his overall free throw percentage in this series to 40%. But he ended up with 30.17 rebounds, just three turnovers, and good decision-making offensively against what I perceive to be a very tired Brooklyn team. You know, you were expecting Kevin Durant to strap the team to his back like he did in game five. They guarded him. Similarly to the way they did in game five, they continued to view Hardin as James Hardin, and he wasn't still even last night. He was nowhere near back to 100%, even though he had a better game.

He scored 16 points in the game, had seven assists. One of the big things in having Hardin back the other day was his ability to sort of take over a lot of the ball handling responsibilities so that Durant didn't have that. What Milwaukee didn't do a lot of what they did on the other night in game five was they didn't switch Brooke Lopez onto Durant and single cover him. There were more, you know, PJ Tucker on Durant exclusively with Janice, you know, also getting in there and a couple of other guys. They ran a lot of guys at him, more guys at him, and he looked tired. And it's justifiable that he looked tired. He played 48 minutes the other night in that historic. performance. And that was 48 hours after you got the crap beat out of them in the game five loss,

or in the game four loss, excuse me. But Milwaukee won the game 104.89. It wasn't much of a game. It was really the first night of these NBA playoffs that didn't have something dramatic happen. And it sets the stage for a game seven tomorrow night in Brooklyn where it looks like Hardin will be available, but Kyrie Irving won't be. And Milford, Milwaukee is a one-point favorite on the road in game seven at Brooklyn. I was a little bit surprised at that. I thought it would be Brooklyn as like a one-to-two-point favorite after what Durant had done at home, and also considering that James Hardin is now going to play his third game after being back,

even though he's not at 100%. The two games tonight, I'm looking forward to Atlanta, can put away Philadelphia. I like Philadelphia laying three on the road to force a second. seventh in deciding game. Utah is a one and a half point favorite in L.A. to try to stay alive and force the seventh game against the Clippers. No Kauai Leonard tonight. That's been decided. But the news about Kauai's injury, which at one point was reported as a torn ACL, there has not been confirmation of that. And in fact, you know, they made it a point to say that he was out for tonight game but has not been ruled out for game seven. So if there is a seventh and deciding game on

Sunday, if Utah is able to even up the series, maybe Kauai will be able to come back. Leonard did travel with the team to Salt Lake on Tuesday and then came back after he was ruled out. It'll be interesting. You know, the Clippers have never been to the Western Conference finals in the history of their franchises, which is 50 years. It's the longest a team has gone without reaching the league's semi-final round in any of the four major sports, professional football, the NBA, Major League Baseball, and the NHL. They are the only team, or the longest, I'm sorry, it's the longest it's been since a team has reached that stage. for Washington football, it's been 30 years since they were in a championship game into the final four.

For Washington's basketball team, it has been 42 years, but not as long away from this stage as the clippers seek to get there tonight. Sort of rooting for them, what's really interesting is if they win tonight, game one of the Western Conference finals would be on Sunday, and I think based on the protocol that Chris Paul is in, he would not be able to play in that game. Now, if a seventh game is played on Sunday and game one of the Western Conference finals was next Tuesday, or this coming Tuesday, I think Chris Paul would be able to play in the game. But anyway, it'll be interesting to see what happens tonight. I'm looking forward to that game, and it would be great if Kauai Leonard is not out of the playoffs and can come back for the Western Conference Finals.

Who knows? All right. Other than that, you know, there's no big NFL news anywhere. There's some talk coming out of Green Bay about how great Jordan loves looking. I think that's kind of hysterical. I think they're handling that all wrong. The golf yesterday, you know, finished up with Louis Oostezen, finishing his first round early this morning and Russell Henley sharing the lead at four under, but some big names there,

you know, really close. Rory McElroy shot one under, Brooks Kefka shot two under, Matsuyama, the Masters winner shot two under, ROM shot two under. Molinari, who remember one of major a few years ago, was up there, a shot back. So some interesting golf. Mickelson off of the PGA win, shot a first round four over. He's going to have to play pretty well. well today to make the cut. All right, that's it for the show. I thank Ben Standing. And don't forget, subscribe. It doesn't cost you anything. Helps us. Rate us and review us wherever you can, especially on Apple podcasts. That always helps us. And it takes, you know, 30 seconds to a minute to give me five stars, to give the podcast five stars and write, you know, a one to two

sentence review about how much you like the podcast. I've explained that to you before, but basically what that does is we had a lot of the reviews and ratings when we first launched the podcast and it gets you way up there in the rankings. And when you're way up there in the rankings, you can generate more advertising. And more importantly, you can sell the advertising for a little bit more. So anyway, if you can do that for us, that is helpful. It's appreciated too. Thanks to all of you. Have a great weekend back on Monday.