The Kevin Sheehan Show - Who's Washington's Coach in '27?

Episode Date: January 29, 2026

Kevin opened with quick thoughts on Bill Belichick's first-ballot Hall of Fame snub and then answered an email asking Kevin who he thinks the Commanders' coach will be in 2027. Nicki Jhabvala/The Athletic jumped on to talk about the two new coordinators along with early thoughts on the 2026 roster. John Ourand/Puck News joined Kevin to discuss the Washington Post Sports Section story and to answer whether or not Al Michaels will be back next year calling NFL Thursday Night games on Amazon. For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Cheon Show. Here's Kevin. I've got two guests with me on the show today. Nikki Javala from the Athletic. We'll jump on in the next segment.

We'll talk about the two new coordinators and we'll look ahead to free agency as well. And then my guy, John Orant, from Putt News. We'll jump on to talk about the Washington Post sports section going away. And I'll also ask John, if Al Michaels is going to be back next year calling Thursday night games on Amazon. The show's presenting sponsor is always, Window Nation. If you need new windows, all I ask is give them a chance to come out and give you a free in-home estimate. To do that, call them at 86690 Nation or head to windownation.com.

So the big story of the day, and it actually broke right after Tommy and I finished, recording the podcast yesterday is that Bill Belichick is not getting into the NFL Hall of Fame on his first ballot opportunity. I think the ballot should have come to voters with the box next to his name already checked, assuming that every voter would check the box on their own. But the box was left empty, and at least 11 out of the 50 voters didn't check it because you need 40 out of the 50, 80%, to vote yes, to get into the Hall of Fame.

So tomorrow when Tommy's on, we'll talk about this in more depth. I did have Gary Myers on the radio show today. Gary Myers is an NFL Hall of Fame voter. Longtime NFL columnists covered the NFC East for the Cowboys, for the Giants. I had him on the show maybe a year, year and a half ago after he had written the book about the 86 Parcells Giants.

He came on with me today. If you want to listen to it, he was really good. He voted yes on Belichick. It's in the third hour of the show, the 12 noon hour, right at the top of the third hour of the third hour of the show. You can find it at the team 980.com, the team 980.com. I will say two things quickly about Belichick. First of all, my personal view is, if you say,

snubbed Bill Belichick, you should actually have your future Hall of Fame voting responsibility taken away from you because you're not very responsible if you don't vote yes to Bill Belichick. He's got the greatest resume in the history of coaches. This would be like not voting Jim Brown or Lawrence Taylor in on their first year of eligibility or not voting Jerry Rice or when Tom Brady becomes. eligible. Look, if they're not going to vote Bella chicken based on maybe some pettiness with respect to

things like SpyGate and DeflateGate, maybe they'll do the same with Brady. Although I think the reaction will prevent that from happening. But I just, I can't believe that at least 11 people

who have that responsibility to vote based on the actual accomplishments of the candidates. Bill Belichick's got nine Super Bowl trips and six Super Bowl victories. I know you know this,

but it's three more trips than anybody else and two more wins than anybody else. Chuck Knoll had four in Pittsburgh in the 70s. He's got the third most wins, and the only two ahead of him, Hallis and Shula, both coached a lot longer than Belichick. Hallis coached 11 years longer than Belichick. Shula coached four years longer than Belichick.

He won two Super Bowls as a defensive coordinator, as we all know, the 86 and 1990 Giants under Parcells. If he had been one of those defensive coordinators, great defensive coordinators who just couldn't cut it as a head coach, he may have had a Hall of Fame worthy career as a coordinator. He was so good at that. I don't know. I mean, my first reaction to this was, my God, what could be in the mind of somebody that voted no? Well, spy gate, deflategate, pettiness, didn't like him. Media people didn't like him because he didn't handle the media very well and he was rude to the media. But the resume is just so overwhelmingly obvious.

I mean, he had a Hall of Fame career on its own after. spy gate. I just kind of feel like if you're a Hall of Fame voter who didn't vote for him, you're just not serious enough about the responsibility. And it really puts a stain on this process, which has always been under a microscope because of the secretive nature, the non-transparent nature of it. That's one thought that I have is that I just, can't imagine somebody who voted no being allowed to vote for the Hall of Fame again. If you don't get that one right, you don't really deserve another shot. Secondly, for a guy that the media always had a tough time with, for a guy that many

perceived to be a coach who others didn't like or others were jealous of, I was somewhat surprised, not totally surprised, but somewhat surprised with the overwhelming response today from coaches and players alike. Like the response being, this is wrong. This is stunning, shocking. How is it possible that Bill Belichick isn't a first ballot Hall of Famer? I'll read some of those responses tomorrow with Tommy. But, you know, the thinking is that the 11 voters were probably making him wait a year

because of spy gate. That's not their responsibility. Their responsibility is, is he a Hall of Famer? Yes or no. If he's a Hall of Famer, it's yes. It's not, yes, you think he's a Hall of Famer, but you're going to make him wait

because of SpyGate or Deflategate. All right, two emails to read. This from Ben 43440 in Darnstown. Maybe it's Ben 4th. 340. Maybe Ben runs a 4-3-40. Ben writes, I'm all in on Quinn if he wins next year, all out if he doesn't. And if Detroit couldn't do it this year with two new coordinators, with their talent, I doubt we will. Who's the coach in 2027, Sheehan? Right now, Ben, in all seriousness, Dan Quinn's going to be the head coach in 2020.

because they're going to have a bounce back year. They'll have a bounce back year where it will be a strong enough season where Harris won't fire Quinn after 2027. They'll have a good enough season where it will be obvious why they didn't have a good enough season in 2025. So the obviousness of it being they were too injured to have a good season in 2025. Yeah, that's my guess right now. Dan Quinn will be the coach in 2027.

I would say that if you're setting odds on it, there's a better than 50% chance he is the coach in 2027. And, you know, as far as the challenge with two new coordinators, yeah, Detroit took a step back with no Ben Johnson, no Aaron Glenn. You know, there were other reasons. Detroit did not have, you know, a playoff season. this year. They were obviously close. You know, they finished this season.

What did they finish? Nine and eight? I think they finished nine and eight. Yeah, nine and eight. So, you know, a game, actually a half game out of the postseason. Green Bay was the seven seed at nine, seven, and one. Yeah, I mean, look, I think that there's a challenge with two new coordinators, but not for the same reason you think it's a challenge, Ben, because let's think about it. Like this year, Chicago, New England, Jacksonville, all had new coordinators.

I understand they had new coaching staffs, but in those three places, when you think about it, they had the same personnel. I mean, Caleb Williams, Trevor Lawrence, Drake May, some key players on offense and defense. They had new coordinators along with a new head coach. Washington had a new head coach in 2024 and new coordinators. I understand that new coaching staffs are different. I can't think of, you know, a situation, other situations where there were two new coordinators, although there are going to be several of those situations this year, not just in the places that have new head coaches.

Washington won't be the only team swapping out two coordinators but leaving their head coach. but I think that the relevant part of it isn't two new coordinators, but two coordinators who have never done it before. So that's what I would keep an eye on and be most concerned about but also most intrigued with because I think there's a chance they made two really good hires. I mean, again, you know, position coaches, we don't know much. This from Kenny, Kenny writes, Kevin, for all that's been said about the Shanahan coaching tree, just one McVeigh has won a Super Bowl. All of the others have come up repeatedly short.

I think it would be short repeatedly, but however you want to write it, Kenny. So, yeah, Sean won the Super Bowl over Cincinnati, right? The Rams in 21. By the way, Cincinnati was coached by Zach Taylor. who was on Sean's staff. So, you know, extending out that tree from Mike Shanahan, Zach Taylor's on it somewhere, you know, off the Sean McVeigh branch. Kyle's been to two, lost both, right?

Both to the Chiefs. Kyle was the OC for Quinn when they got there when they got there in 2016 and blew the 28 to 3 lead. But Kyle hasn't been there. Matt LaFleur has only been to one conference championship game, right? The one that they lost to the bucks with Brady in 2020. Oh, Gary Kubiak. Now, he was not a part of the Shanahan Washington tree,

but Gary Kubiak is part of the Mike Shanahan Denver tree. And he won the Super Bowl with Denver when they beat Carolina in the Super Bowl, with Peyton in his last year. But okay, Kenny. I mean, most of them have won a lot of football games and been in a lot of playoff games. By the way, I read something about the matchup this year between Seattle and New England.

Did you know that it's the first Super Bowl in seven years with a defensive head coach in the Super Bowl? Belichick against McVeigh was Rams Patriots seven years ago was the last time we had a defensive head coach in the Super Bowl. That's crazy. Isn't it? I mean,

last year, Siriani Reed, the year before that, Reed, Kyle, the year before that, Reed versus Siriani, McVeigh, Zach Taylor, Bruce Ariens, Tampa coach against Andy Reed, Andy Reed against Kyle Shanahan, And then you had 2019 February 3rd, Super Bowl 53, Bill Belichick beating Sean McVeigh. The last time a defensive head coach coached in the Super Bowl, it was Bill Belichick in Atlanta in Super Bowl in Super Bowl 53.

And the last time you had defensive head coach against defensive head coach like you have this year with Vrable against McDonald. You've got to go back nine years, nine years. to Super Bowl 51 in Houston when Bill Belichick faced off against Dan Quinn. Patriots, Falcons. There was some news today as it relates to our team. The team's defensive pass game coordinator, Jason Simmons, is interviewing for the Pittsburgh defensive coordinator position. Simmons coached with Mike McCarthy back in Green Bay several years ago.

So Jason Simmons up for the Pittsburgh defensive coordinator spot. Anthony Lynn's interviews in Buffalo and Cleveland did not produce head coaching offers because Joe Brady's the coach in Buffalo and today Todd Munkin became the head coach in Cleveland. So Anthony Lynn presumably will remain as the team's running backs coach. And then Brian Johnson is kind of the one that's still kind of hanging out there, I think. Will he get a look at an OC job? He was the OC in Philadelphia. He got passed over if you want to view it that way for the OC position here.

Yeah. So there still could be some coaching, you know, moves. Like if Jason Simmons were to get that job, it might open up. the opportunity for Jones, our new defensive coordinator, to bring somebody in. There was going to be, I think, a press conference at the end of this week where Dan Quinn was going to announce and take questions on all of the coaching changes, but because they haven't finalized everything with Simmons interviewing in Pittsburgh and still, I think the Brian Johnson thing up in the air, I think they're going to push that back to next week.

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plus free vitamin D3 plus K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. This is a limited time offer, only available while supplies last. That's drinkag1.com slash Sheen. Drinkag1.com slash Sheen. All right. Joining me right now, Nikki Gibval. Maybe of course writes for The Athletic at Nikki J-J-H-A-B-V-A-L-A. Nikki's doing a phenomenal job, as always, covering our team.

So what would the chances have been three weeks ago if I said to you, they're going to end up with two coordinators who have never done it before? What would you have said the chances of that were? Yeah, definitely didn't see that one coming. Definitely did not. I mean, we knew they were going to get rid of one coordinator. I mean, that was effectively decided in week 11 when they shipped out of play calling duties. I think the Kingsbury move surprised a lot of folks, but it became apparent.

Like, you really got to listen closely to DQ, and I know you do, but I feel like with Dan, it's more of what he does. say than what he does say. What is the obvious that is missing when you ask him questions? When you ask him about Bobby Johnson and he goes on to talk about the assistant O-line coach and a quality control coach twice in the last year, that should be a red flag. When you ask him about play calling and the development of Jaden and he mentions David Blow and not the offensive coordinator, that should be a red flag. So I think that's what was noticeable.

And then I felt like they were on different pages when it came to a lot of the stuff with the injuries and how to develop. I'm not saying this is the reason that Kingsbury is not still the offensive coordinator. I think we still need to hear from Dan Quinn to really understand what went into that decision. But I think there was clear, I would say just a general discipline. Not a disrespectful disagreement, but just the general disagreement on some of the injuries that causes and kind of what needs to change going forward. Now, I still didn't think even if they, if we knew they were going to move on from both from the outset, you wouldn't think, okay, they're going to go to two first year guys because they just had Joe Witt, who was the first year guy, felt like it didn't work out. So, yeah, I definitely would have thought if they're going to move on from one or both, they're going to go experience, proven. And here we are.

Yes, here we are indeed. So, Nikki, the last couple of days I've described these two hires as being completely different from one another. You know, yes, they are first-time coordinators. They will be first-time play callers. But the way the team arrived at each hire is just completely different. In that, Blow, they knew the moment he walked into the building, he was going to be in this role pretty quickly somewhere. and they probably even thought it would be here. Whereas with Jones, they never anticipated that they would have an opening two years into their regime.

And then when it came about, you know, trying to fill the position, there were probably guys out there that they desired more. I do want to get from you kind of how you saw everything unfold with these two hires. But start with, do you agree that they just are completely different? from one another in terms of the way they arrived at each. Correct, yes. They're cheating. The writing was on the wall when they blocked them from three, you know,

a year ago. ...promotions with other teams. And he's an assistant quarterback's coach who's a year removed from playing. And not that this really matters, but it's not like he was a big name as a player. He played, like, what, five to seven games during his pro career? So, like, they really valued him, and they really thought he was good for Jayden Daniels and the other quarterbacks in the room. And you could see that Jayden respected them. They could be both, like, the brother type where they sort of banter pre-practice, but when they locked in, they locked in.

So they really did value Blow, and they made that very clear from year one. So you knew that was going to happen. I don't know that most expected them to, like, leap over, like, being a, full-time leading positional coach, leap over any play-calling experience, and get a job. But, you know, they value him, and Dan Quinn has said all along he doesn't want to see good talent,

you know, walk away. That was one of his regrets in the past. Okay, so there's a lot. Now, let's go to Widd and replacing him with Durante Jones. Yeah, I think most people are like, all right, let's get a big name in here. We need to improve the defense. Well, remember their circumstances.

You know, they're not the 12-and-5 team that went to the MSC championship with the rookie of the year quarterback that, you know, it may be a couple pieces away from contending. This is a 5-and-12 team that, you know, struggled to fully launch its defense needs a ton of pieces on the roster and could, you know, theoretically have a brand-new defensive staff. I don't think they will have a brand-new one. I think there could be, you know, a handful of changes, but there's a lot at risk, and this is year three for Dan Quinn,

so if he doesn't, you know, turn this around, it's very plausible that, you know, he could be in jeopardy and be out, in which case this new defensive coordinator could be out. So this person is taking risk. So if you're looking for a defensive coordinator, you're not going to get the guy who has options

and can sort of pick where he wants to go. So they're looking at sort of these, the up-and-coming coaches who maybe haven't gotten a shot, but have a lot of promise or well-respected or good at developing players. And that's what you hear a lot of when, you know, you call around and ask about Durante Jones. Yeah, specific to that job, the defensive coordinator opening,

that was a much tougher hire with somebody with choices than the offensive coordinator would have been had they been interested in, you know, going after Kevin Stefansky if he didn't get a job or waiting for Mike McDaniel, etc. there was more interest in the O.C. job than the D.C. job. Yes, and I always wonder, had those, had they flip-flop those two, right? Like, had they been able to hire the D.C. first, might they've been able to, you know, find somebody better if they felt like, oh, on the other side, it is a more experienced guy? I feel like they're in good hands there. Do you feel like the team overall is more stable?

I don't know. It's not to say that, Blow won't be a good coach. I think he'll be a very fine coach. Everybody needs their first shot. If he's a mystery, we don't know what he is. We don't know what his offense will look like. We just know who he's worked with. But they didn't have that luxury.

I mean, they value Blow and Blow was, you know, gaining interest from the Detroit Lions. And, you know, you wait too long. You risk losing your guy. Yeah, no doubt. I think there's no doubt that if they had waited, Blow would be an offensive coordinator in Detroit. right now, if not somewhere else.

What do you think will change offensively with Blow at the helm? You're right. We don't know, really, and we don't know how he'll operate under the glare that he's never been under as an offensive coordinator. But, you know, based on the conversations you've had with people, what do you think Quinn was looking for change-wise? I would think they want something a little bit with a more balanced attack. and I just, I hate even saying that because I feel like that's the cliche fan media gripe about

an offense is, do you want to balance run and pass attack? Like, it doesn't always work that way, and it's not like, that doesn't mean an equal number of russing attempts and pass attempts. That's not what that means. It's just finding more balance. So, you know, you can attack a defense more efficiently. You can catch a mouth guard a little bit more efficiently. The thing I don't say,

But that is they knew what Cliff Kingsbury's offense was, though. And I felt like it was more balanced than had ever been in past years just in terms of, you know, how much he divvied up the run game. But they also didn't have the personnel to really do a lot of things they wanted to do. No, they were all injured. Especially defense, you know, but, you know, offense too. I mean, they had, you know, one really good receiver, another receiver who was, I don't like the time of Gadget, because I, I think he's debos more than that, but he's also not like your true number two in the sense of workload. I think they tried to make him into that, and that's not what he's ever been.

So, they just don't have a person now. They had some young backs and once Echler, I mean, a young back with Echler, and losing Echler was killer for them. I mean, he brought so much to their offense, and yes, he was older, but he was, he could do a lot of things for them. So, yeah, they didn't have great personnel and, you know, tossing the injuries. It's very tough to achieve some sort of balance. Yeah, I mean, your offense is doomed when your starting quarterback starts and finishes four games out of 17. I mean, it starts there. I've said so many times I'm blue in the face that it's almost impossible to evaluate this team this year.

And look, I'm not knocking your preseason prediction, which was spot. on. You had it. No one else had it. That they were going to actually... I was wrong. I expected them to be much better than me. I know. You said eight and nine, I think. You said eight and nine. So you were three games off. But had they been healthy? I still think the defense wasn't going to be very good. So it may have been eight and nine with good health. What do you think they're looking for offensively in the offseason? I mean, they need to get another receiver or two or three. That group, I mean, I feel like there have been years where, like, oh, they're deeper than they were on the past,

but they've never been deep there. Not since I've been covering the team, which is the start of 2020. They've never been deep there. They need some key receivers. You've got to give them some targets. They need to get another tight end, a pass catching tight end. I don't, I mean, they have limited picks. I get it last year.

Like, you can only do so much to a roster overnight, but they need another pass cut. tied in. You need a successor to Earth. Benson, I think, can be a good player, but I don't think he's what they need right now. In terms of that role, I think you know, he can, you know, he's developing, but he's not ready to take

on that role. I didn't, I didn't see it, and they didn't see it, otherwise they would have given him more reps. And then, you know, a back, you need, you need that workhorse. You know, whether you have a true feature back or you have a by committee, you need that sort of workhorse.

And if you want somebody who's more dynamic who can catch passes out of the back field, but you need somebody who can really stabilize that group. I like the line. I love the move for Larry and Me Tensel. It was costly, yeah, but that's the investment you've got to make in finding a premier left tackle.

And I thought he had probably one of his best seasons, and he's already been a five-time pro bowler. I like what Chris Paul did at guard. I, you know, Sam Cosme was, just working his way back from injury when he suffered the concussion that sucks. But I thought Josh Connerly was starting to make progress. I like the line. It's just you got to give Jayden some help around it.

Yeah, no doubt. Defensively, what do they do with Bobby Wagner? I think you've got to move on. I think, I mean, you can't replace Bobby. Bobby is a very good tackler, exceptional leader. everything you want to kind of lead relatively new group of guys, young guys, like he's everything you want in a coach and a leader, right?

You're not going to be able to replace that in one guy, I don't think. But you also got to get younger on that side of the ball. And you need some help in coverage, and you need help in all three levels of that defense. A lot of help in all three levels. And I don't, if you have Bobby on the field, you're not getting younger guys on the field. It's just hard.

You know, the times that they started to get Jordan McGee involved more was late in the season when they knew they were already out of it, sadly. You got to bring in some other guys there. That would be my choice. Will they do it? I don't know. I guess it depends on how many holes they can feel elsewhere. Like if they feel like, okay, well, this is a bigger priority in getting an eddresser.

We absolutely need help at safety, which they do. we absolutely need a corner, which they do. Let's prioritize that, and then we'll address, you know, the linebacker. But it may also really depend on what Bobby wants, too. You know, maybe I don't, I didn't get the sense that retirement was right on the brink term, but I could be wrong. I don't know Bobby that. Well, none of us do.

You know, maybe he wants to go elsewhere, you know, to finish out of the year. We don't know that. So, yeah, I just, I could see him moving on from him. I also think they have a lot of work to do on that side. Offensively, I didn't ask you this, but you expect them to sign Laramie Tonsul to a long-term contract extension. Yep. So on defense, do you think they'll look at doing that with Frankie Louvo?

I don't know. Possibly, sure. Yeah, I think anything's possible, but I don't know that he had the greatest season. I think you've got a lot of work to do on defense, and I think you've got to figure out your identity on defense first. I feel like last year with all the injuries, they weren't able to best use Frankie Louvo. I mean, to get his speed and, you know,

to be able to play multiple spots, essentially, is what you like for them. But you don't put him on the line every, like, for much of the time, he's not, that's not what he is. And he wasn't terribly effective in that rule. But they needed it out of necessity just because of all the injuries. They needed some help up front. but if you can get the right personnel around him,

maybe he plays more like he did in year one, because I think he's a very fine player. It just wasn't in the right spot, and it's not, I don't say that like they didn't know how to use them. It's just they couldn't use them in the right spot. So that would not be a priority for me this off season, but that doesn't,

that's not to say they won't do it. Who do you think they discovered this year? It doesn't have to be one person, but I mean, there are a couple that come to my mind, but I'm curious as to who comes to your mind. Somebody that they didn't think of really was going to be a contributor or a significant contributor. And that player, by the way, is an unrestricted free agent, and they're going to go after to try to keep. Does his name Sarwa Traylon? That's one.

And what Berks? Yeah, 100% of Berks. And there's one on defense that comes to mind for me, too. um um um jacob martin exactly those two yeah i could see jac i could see them reigning jacob martin i don't think he's your feature past russia though no no no no no rotational your rotation yep yeah yeah and i think that's what they signed him initially to be um you know as more of that rotational guy to help out and like the others he was used more out of necessity and to the total credit like he came through big like he put up big

numbers. But I don't know that that should be as natural position or his natural workload, but yeah, I give him total credit. He really came through big, and he deserves another contract. I thought Jalen Berks was very good. I thought he was, you know, a welcome surprise. And I shouldn't say surprise because he first one, like, he knew what he was coming on. He just wasn't able to get there because of injuries and other reasons in the past. he proved to be very good for this team. And much needed. They need, I mean, maybe he can develop into that number two, maybe more,

because you've got to think, like, period is really based on his contract. He's really guaranteed one more year here. Exactly. And then what? Then you got the right to move on, or they got to rework that contract because there's no way they, I can't see him taking on that cap it that they've agreed to at this point.

Exactly. You know, the other player, actually, now that I think about it, Chris Rodriguez is a restricted free agent. He's going to be back. They need him. They need him back. And another one, to his credit, played bigger when they needed them. Yeah.

And he came into the off season and showed that he had really... Correct. He put in a ton of work in the off season. Slimed down, got faster. And this is somebody who has, you know, proven himself to two regimes now, which I think is one of the more impressive things. Like the coaches that stay on with multiple regimes, the players that stay on with multiple regimes,

those are the ones that I think are really quality players and have really shown a lot. He's one of them. I think he could be a really good player. I think he's just getting started in my mind. Do you think that Adam Peters and Dan Quinn have a grip on just how bad they were defensively? And the reason I asked that,

that I think I heard that from Adam Peters in his press conference at the end of the year, that he sort of recognized that. But remember early in the season, they seem to be so impressed with the results defensively against the Giants and the Raiders, you know, and then the Chargers without an offensive line. The Giants didn't have their best offensive line, and the Raiders, you know, weren't very good at all. And by the way, move the ball up and down the field. Actually, when you think about it, do they know that they, need five new starters if they can somehow manage that?

Yeah, I think I know. I don't think they're blind. I think they're all seeing what we see. I don't think they expected this group to be as, you know, bad as it was. Right. And I think, yes, you also got a factor in injuries. Yeah, Armstrong lies. You know, there were injuries.

I mean, there were issues that were problematic and have been problematic for years, even going back to the last year. regime, but like, the tackling was atrocious. The tackling was atrocious. You know, missing so badly on some of these and giving up the number of explosives they did, like,

you can't have that. Like, so yeah, I think they know, I don't think it, they expected it to be as bad as it was, but, and I think it really frustrated on that they couldn't fix it by the end. And they did, they did try things. Joe Witt did try things, but

it just, it wasn't working. I mean, you think after, after, you know, starting with Madrid, there was some improvement, at least initially. Well, that's the game Quinn took over. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So they did, they tried to, you know, change a few things. They changed practices. They, you know, change where Witt was calling plays. They gave Quinn the play calling. It's same issues. Yeah. So you got to fix the personnel and you got to really figure out your identity on that side. Do you agree? that the emphasis when we get to free agency

will be defense, defense, defense, and then we can go get Jaden another receiver, receiver, and that the spending will sort of reflect the seriousness of their problem on defense? I want to say I know exactly what they're going to do, and I honestly have no

clue. I'm just going to be straight up with you. I know they've already stated their priorities, right? They need speed. They need a pass rusher. I mean, Adam Peters is immobile now, and obviously he's standing right behind the edge rushers. Like, it's no secret kind of where their heads at. I think they could either draft one high. It's a good class for that, or you're going to have to acquire somehow.

I don't think you can give up more picks, but who knows, if Max Crowson becomes available, hypothetically, I'm not saying he is available. I'm just saying, you've got to get an elite guy there. And I think they know that's their priority. and then you kind of fill out your other priorities from there. I would say that safety, corner linebacker and the novice. So yes, I do think a heavy focus will be the defense, but that's not to say that the only, you know, at a receiver,

maybe they take a tight end high. They need one. And we've seen how important tight ends are again nowadays because the NFL is cyclical and what happened 10 years ago always comes back around. I mean, tight ends, you saw the impact they had. You saw what they did to the commander's defense this last season. They need one badly. So, yeah, I think plenty will be spent on defense.

But they also need to really help out their quarterback a lot. All right. Last one. Is Marcus Mariotta going to be back, or is there a chance he ends up following Cliff wherever Cliff goes? That's a good question. I think it's very possible that he goes where Cliff goes. you know, I came here

who's essentially following Brian Johnson. I would say, Brian Johnson gave him right in Philly. Yeah, but it's not to say, I mean, the guy's number two overall pick. He's no mystery across the league. This wasn't a, let's see what we have in Marcus Marriota. Everybody knows what Marcus Marriotto is.

Right. You know, like, and he was great for this group. You know, I don't think this team at all with Marcus or anybody else has the leverage that, they did last season. This is not, we have new ownership, we have a well-respected head coach, we are coming off an amazing season, like people want to come here. No, this is a team that has a lot of work to do and had a really bad season and could be overhauled in another year if things don't go well. So I think Marcus and the other free agent is going to factor that end.

Thanks for doing this as always. Hope you're well. Appreciate it. Of course. Thank you. Nikki Javala, everybody from The Athletic. Of course, Nikki used to cover the team for the Washington Post. And John Oran from Puck News has been covering this story about the post sports section on the verge of collapsing. He will join us next to discuss that and a lot more after these words from a few of our sponsors. Hey, guys, I've talked a lot about chime over the last year. It's just a much smarter way to bank.

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A. D. All right, joining me right now is my friend John Orand. John simply put, is the best sports media and sports business writer out there. He writes for Puck News. I would urge you to subscribe to it. I am a subscriber. You can follow John and get a link to Puck News at Orand underscore Puck on X. So I reached out to you for the primary reason of discussing this Washington Puck News. Post thing, but I do want to get into some of the NFL playoff TV stuff, the ratings, which I think were through the roof, and a few other things as well. But let's start with the Post story. It would appear that the Washington Post Sports section is going away. Tell us why. It's stressing. It's hard to talk about. And people that grew up in this area, and especially people that are journalists. You just look at the decision of at best, like, hollowing out the sports department at worst is just getting rid of the sports department entirely, and it's hard to, like, it's hard not to get a little bit personal or emotional about it. But because you ask,

I will try to take the role of, you know, Jeff Bezos and talk about sort of why we're doing it. And as you said, newspapers are, they've been on a downward trajectory for the past, what, 30 years probably or 40 years. And the Washington Post has made a lot of changes to the newspaper, you know, the buyouts and, you know, adding a robust website and all of these things. But at the end of the day, it still is, it's hard to make a lot of money from local news. news. I grew up. My first job, Kevin, was with the Gazette newspapers, which is dearly beloved and they closed up shop. The Northwest Current, my kids' first job was delivering the Northwest Current here, D.C. And that's no longer around either. It is hard to make money from local news. What the Post decided to do was, okay, we're going to really focus on national. And so

they put like really beginning reporters sometimes on, you know, the Wizards beat or, you know, the Caps beat and really focused on that national type of news. Well, so in 2025, they took a look. And if you want to get political news, where do you go? You go to Politico. You go to Axios. You go to any number of places. If you want to get news on the local D.C. teams, where do you go? You don't really go to the post. you go to the athletic or you go and, you know, there's any number of bloggers that blog on it. If you want, you know, local news, local news, there are plenty of, like, little local websites that have popped up that are, you know, able to give local type of news. And it was hard for them to support that. And so they've made the decision to, they're going to focus on the idea of D.C. being a company town and the company being politics.

they're going to focus on not local, but politics and things along those lines. And so that just makes carrying the sports department for them a little bit extraneous. So something that's a lot easier to cut. And it's basically trying to reinvent a newspaper and doing it in real time. And it's a, I mean, it is a tough. It's a tough move to make. There's going to be about 300 posties that are going to get laid off over the next week or so. And it's, you know, we don't know how that story is going to develop yet,

but it's right now. It's just not looking good for, you know, the international section, for the local section, for the sports section, for the audio section, as they sort of take everything else and focus it more on, you know, politics and what the Washington has a quote-unquote company town is. I read in your story in Puck that they've, you know, it's said that they've been losing around $100 million, I'm assuming a year. The newspaper business, just, I just want to make sure I'm right about this. But basically the two revenue sources are subscriptions, both online and print, and then advertising, right?

That's it. There still are some, like, you know, the old days of newspapers, when they were really making money, classified ads. classified ads, right. Go, going, but I guess you would throw that in with advertising. Right. So, advertising and subscript. So basically, the cost structure just far exceeded the revenues. And the cost structure being, it's primarily bodies, right?

Reporters, columnists? It's reporters, it's columnists. It's also the idea of, you know, travel, especially now that they want to be a national news source. Like, you've got to travel to get out there. get outside the beltway to do that, and that costs a lot of money, too. So they're losing all this money, hand over fist the last few years. Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post. People have said this.

I've seen it on social media. I don't know what his appetite would be for this. But if he wanted to, he could certainly keep the paper, you know, alive and well and everybody employed if he wanted to. Oh, yeah, yeah, certainly. I mean, I love spending other people's money, and so I would call them. and Jeff Bezos to do that. It would be a thing for him to do that.

But Jeff Bezos is like, think about if you're Jeff Bezos, he could easily do that and watch the post continue to slide, to watch costs and losses continue to escalate. Or he can say, like, I really want to save the brand of the Washington Post, and I want to do it by creating something. that's totally different because the Washington Post of Watergate isn't going to work in 2026

and the Washington Post of Cornheuser and Wilbon isn't going to work in 2026. And so what Bezos is thinking, he bought this, it's a great, I hate to talk this way, but this is, I'm trying to channel Jeff Bezos.

It's a great asset for Bezos, and he wants to keep it and have it propel forward and almost reinvent what journalism is, which is already being reinvented on TikTok, on Instagram Reels, on, you know, on streaming platforms and everything else where you get news quicker and better than you get even from the post website,

much less than the Dead Tree Edition. So do we know for sure that it's going away entirely, John, or is there a chance that there's a scale-down version with, you know, a few reporters and maybe a columnist? Pretty much, but I would also look at, you know, on local TV news, we're not seeing any sports departments there either. And they still cover the commanders, right? And they still cover, like, the Wizards when something happened,

like I guess they did five years ago, but when something big happens for the Wizards. So I would imagine that there are going to be. some sports reporters. I don't know who, and I would hate to speculate, but there are going to be some sports reporters that would be transferred to, say, the business section, or transferred to say the style section, and transferred elsewhere to where, you know, they can still report on something that having to do with sports, but the idea of going and reading the game recap from last night's Capitals game, that's going away entirely. the emphasis that the Post had on becoming more of a national newspaper, you know, specific to sports,

because I think we've all seen it as consumers of the post sports section. We've seen, you know, over the last several years, much more of an emphasis on national, much more of an emphasis on, you know, not necessarily mainstream sports sometimes. Not that they didn't have reporters covering all of the local teams, but do you think that that, emphasis to go much beyond local, ended up hurting the sports section? I think so. Look, it's hard for me to say because I'm a D.C. native, and I grew up on the post-sport section, and I want, I crave information on the local teams.

And so focusing on national took a lot of that away. But one thing that I will sort of caution you on, when you, you, say something like that, Kevin, is that Jeff Bezos is the richest man in the world, but he can't solve the newspaper problem as it currently is. So, you know, whether you focus local, whether you focus national, there's the same trajectory for newspaper revenues that's been happening for really almost as long as I've been in the business, for goodness sakes, but certainly for the past 10 to 20 years.

And then if you look at the New York Times, you know, they jettison their sports department. They took a bunch of those sports reporters and put them on the business desk and on the national desk or whatever. And they bought the athletic. So now if you're a subscriber to the New York Times.com, you get free access to the athletics. Right.

You know, that's their sports department. But they also have got, they have games. You know, everybody talks about word or connections and things like that. That's sticky and it brought people in. I mean, if it's the postword of mimic that, do you mean? two of those on the national basis? With that work, is there enough sort of like local support for the post to do that?

Because media, like everything else, is a copycat business. But I think what Bezos is looking at is the rise of Axios, the rise of Politico, he's seen the valuations of those publications as well and saying, like, you know what, that's probably a better place to go with the brand that matters, like the Washington Post.

I mean, right. The Times paid $500 plus million for the athletic. There's no athletic, you know, competitor out there for the Post to go acquire if they were even thinking about that. There's nothing that rivals the athletic right now. No, and in fact, the athletic is part of, well, what's the blame for what happened to the Post? Because the athletic, you know, under David Aldrich, they launched the Athletic D. And they cover all of those teams that we talked about, a very heavily. heavily. So if you want to get information on your teams, you know, most likely you're going to be an athletic subscriber, I would think. You know, I don't know how many people are interested in this part of the conversation, but I am. You know, the athletic at times was hemorrhaging. And so the buyout from the New York Times, I think, came at the right time. You can tell me more about that. But like just the idea, it's a tough business because for the best of the best, there's a huge. cost in terms of reporters and columnists? And then can you actually get enough subscribers

to create a legitimate, you know, profitable business model out of it? It's not easy, is it? Well, in fact, the athletic, I don't remember what cities they went in, what markets they went in that weren't big enough for them. Yeah. Didn't get enough subscribers. And they ended up having to pull back from them and say, like, okay, we actually are, when the athletic launch, it said, we're going to have a beat reporter for every single team in the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, and they ended up retrenching from that when they saw what the numbers were. And it's like, okay, that NHL team didn't bring in enough subscribers to warrant having a full B-writer cover it. So right now, right now, for, you know, I'm acting like the Internet was invented last year.

But the publications like the New York Times and the Post, they know, exactly what is popular. And believe me, if they're reporting on the commanders got enough clicks, you would still see them going after the commander. Sure. It just didn't. And part of the problem is that your podcast and the athletic and there's so much other stuff out there that there wasn't in the past and the post didn't do much in terms of being out in front with a lot of those, with a lot of those beats. I asked Tommy this question yesterday, maybe it's a dumb question,

but if the last 10, 20 years, our town had had just one winner after another, that we had the Patriots run with the Redskins. If we had, you know, an NBA championship contender year and year out, a World Series contender year and in year out, would it have made a difference? I think so. I think it could have made a difference with the sports section, certainly. But again, there are macro

economics about running a newspaper and running a media business that even success successful teams would be able to paper over a lot of that. But there are still the economics of the business that just don't work.

And so it's I would think that they would be pretty much in the same spot that they are, but there is a little bit more of a likelihood. that if we had, say, the Boston teams over the past a couple of decades, that the sports second could survive. We've had some of these conversations on the air and off over the years.

We're both native Washingtonians. But, you know, I've said this before, even though my business is to talk about D.C. sports. I don't live in a great sports town compared to really good sports towns. It's not what Washington is. And I think more so over the last call it 15 years, especially after the Nats moved to D.C. And became more prominent. We've become, I've described it, much more of a pro sports town than we ever were because there was a time, you know this.

It was the Redskins and then Maryland basketball was number two. I mean, for a long period of time because the other teams in town just weren't good or we didn't have some of the other teams in town. But the other part of it is this. and I'm curious as to whether or not you agree with this. Other than our football team, it's bandwagon. It's you've got to win to attract a crowd. Now, the caps have a hardcore niche, but it's not mass appeal.

But everybody else, it's bandwagony. Agree or disagree? I'll agree with you, but I'm going to, I don't like the word banwagoning. Okay. So I think D.C. is a great sports town because I think D.C. is a unique sports town that it's totally unique to D.C. And I remember going to, you know, you saw like an NBA playoff game in Sacramento, and they would put, like, T-shirts on the seats. And all of a meeting, was dressed in white. And was like, oh, wow, I went to a wizard's playoff game.

They tried the same thing, and nobody put on it. I know. I was at that game. I didn't put it on. I didn't put it on. I didn't put it on. No, because we're in East Coast market. It's not, it's not, Sacramento is not East, Midwest, but that Midwest smaller market mentality is not what we have. Yeah, and then on top of it, you want my hard-earned money? You've got to put a winner out there. I'm sorry, I'm not going to go support. You can call it bandwagon. I'm going to say, I'm going to call it a smart. stand base that doesn't want to support teams that just aren't very good. You know, you'd like put out a good team and I'll show up.

But if you're going to put out this track, I'm just, I'll watch it from home maybe, you know. Or I can do a ton of different things. So I think D.C. is a great, is a great sports town because it's unique to D.C. I hear what you're saying in the way you're defining great sports town, but we're not Boston, Chicago, New York, Philadelphia. I used that. I did use great euphemistically, but I do like the bandwagon thing because, look, I love all the local teams. I guess you could say I'm on a bandwagon because I go more often when they win. But you've got to draw me to the stadium. Come on.

What are your best memories? I shared some with Tommy yesterday on the podcast. I was one of those kids that basically the reading that I did was all about sports. And it started first thing in the morning when the paper got dropped off at the podcast. the front door and my father and I would race to get the sports section because that was you know and I was a young kid I mean I read it every day I it was a habit for me and I had my favorites and I I remember so much I delivered the post you'll love this I delivered the post and the star simultaneously when I was like 12 or 13 years old um but what are some of your post memories all right I'm going to I'm going to give you two one one is great and and you're going to remember this

the Redskins at the time had ended spring training in Pennsylvania. Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and they were coming home. And I opened up, I opened up, the spring training just ended. And I opened up the paper, and there's a Christine Brennan story about two players who were pulled over by police for going like 110 miles an hour on like 270 or maybe with I-70. and the only way Christine got that story was she happened to be driving and she saw these guys pulled over

she was like oh there must be a story there and they were like you're not going to write this and she still like she still just wrote the story I forget who I think it was a receiver I forget who it was I think it was it was the running back that they took in the third round

who they ended up trading to Cleveland and and the guy literally showed up late for camp because he didn't have a contract and then he showed up in a brand new Porsche because I think I was at that training camp working for Channel 5. Yeah. And I like, Aliphant, Mike Oliphant. I think it might have been him.

Aliphon. And just I remember, I remember reading it and I was just like, wow, what kind of story is it? Like, it was just such a unique story for me. Right. I just thought it was great. And Christine can do no wrong ever ever since then for me. I thought it was a great story. And then the second one I'll give you is not really a story,

but I've been working in the business for a couple of decades now. And I've been lucky enough to, I'm not friends with Michael, but we know each other and we've spoken here and there. I've actually been able to tell him that reading him through the 80s and the 90s, he's solely responsible, not solely responsible, but primarily responsible for me doing what I'm doing with the style that I do it with. I just, I read everything he wrote. And I just thought, you know, like the post-sport section back in the 80s and the 90s to me was the best sports section in America.

And he was the best newspaper columnist that I read. And I just, I loved the way he wrote an opinion column that was reported out. So it wasn't just him sitting in his living room writing an opinion, you know. that he would go to the next day and get yelled at by people. And I just thought that he, I still think he was among the greatest newspaper columnist of all time. And just being able to, being able to tell that to him, I think it's like really kind of cool. Yeah, that is.

You know, Len Shapiro was always a favorite of mine when I was, you know, not necessarily kid, but when I was a teenager and a young adult. And one of the reasons, and I've told Len this before, because I've had a on the show. One of the reasons is he was kind of one of the first to do and be interested in the things that you're interested in. You know what a big fan I am of yours. I think you do such a phenomenal job covering things that are interesting to me. They may not be interesting to everybody, but sports media, TV ratings. We talk about that stuff all the time. You and I love that stuff. And we kind of understand the importance to the organizations, to leagues, etc. Len Shapiro is one of

the first to kind of start writing a little bit about the media. Do you remember that? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it was Lund Shapiro and then, you know, Rudy Markski over at U.S. and Rudey, Mardski, Norman Chad. Oh, Norman Chad, his columns were that were, were, you, there was not another Norman Chad that existed in the country. And that, like, he was funny and he just kind of like, you know, the, the, I definitely

read Lund Shapiro a lot. because I have the natural interest in that stuff too. All right. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, I'll get John to talk about these astronomical TV ratings during the NFL playoffs. We'll do that after these words from a few of our sponsors. We continue with John Oran from Buck News. So let's talk NFL playoff TV ratings.

They were through the roof, weren't they? Oh, yeah. Going from a strength and strength on that. The thing to watch, though, is the Amazon numbers are just through the roof in terms of streaming. Netflix on Christmas Day had some terrible games. They had a bunch of teams that were already out of the playoffs, and they still provided a really big viewing number there. This year or next year, one of the next two years,

the NFL is going to open up its media negotiations early. And what I'm going to be, what everybody should be focused on moving forward is just not only what the viewership numbers are coming from, you know, the YouTube and the Netflix's and Amazon, but what kind of games they get? And because the whole business is moving away from linear TV and towards streaming. It already happened to the entertainment genre. It's starting to happen to sports. Football is sort of the last thing that's keeping ESPN and Fox and NBC sort of the whole.

Will the NFL take a bigger step towards streaming? Are they content staying on local over-the-air television? So that's sort of, when you talk about ratings, that's always sort of how I take a look at it. Because if you look at what Boxing CBS did for their AFC and NFC championship games, I think they were both over like 46 million viewers. You can't get that anywhere. That's on TV. And like, how soon is that going to end?

Like, TV is still the one place, broadcast TV in particular, that brings in these mass audiences. But if the NFL starts to migrate more and more towards streaming, like, it's a, that's the one league that's going to be really, you know, pushing this. That could make that migration happen a lot quicker. Is that one of the reasons? I think I read this, and maybe you tweeted it out, that Amazon got Bears Packers on that night game on Wild Card weekend, that that was a highly desirable game for everybody,

but they gave it to Amazon? Yeah, which was fascinating. So Amazon got it. Amazon put out a huge number for it. They set a streaming record for that game. Still, like, if all these broadcast sources after that, if it had been on broadcast TV, it would have gotten an even bigger number.

So it depends on how you look at it. But clearly, the NFL wanted to see, like, we're going to give you a big game exclusively in the playoffs. Let's make sure that there's no lag time. Let's make sure that people don't get knocked off. I mean, you remember Netflix's type of Jake Paul fight. Nobody could get on. And one thing I would say Amazon did it.

The tech worked. People watched it. I saw almost no complaints about lag time or, you know, pixelation or anything like that. And, you know, it was a, if it was a test, it was a very successful test. Look, the biggest complaints about Amazon have been about Al Michaels. I mean, whose fastball is not quite quick. or as quick as it used to be. Is he going to be back calling Amazon games with Herb Street?

Yeah, I think my old publication sports business journal reported that he's going to be back at least one more year, so he will be back next year. And one thing I will say, like, he has lots of fastball, and he's gotten a lot of grief online about this. The thing I really look at with announcers is like he still has that big. game voice. He still hear his voice and it's like it still is Al Michael's calling a game. And I think that media companies and TV networks still prioritize that part of it. So if he misidentifies a player or if he doesn't get excited on a game winning field

role or interception or something like that, they'll give up that because like when you hear that voice and you're a casual fan, it's like, oh, this is this means something and I should probably sit down and watch it. What's CBS going to do with the Tony Romo problem? There's not much that CBS can do. Tony Romo is under contract for a while, unless they, unless Larry Ellison or David Ellison decides to, you know, eat like tens of millions of dollars on a contract.

I think it's up to, there's like $70 million left on that. Then we're going to have Tony and Jim as the number one. Andrew Marchand actually had a good column. on this, which talked about Iron Eagle and JJ Watt. J.J. Watt. Yeah, I read it. They are. They are I mean, they're the number two

booth over there, but they feel like the number one to me. I do have to agree with that. Yeah, that's, it's such an interesting thing because you know, I don't know if you sense this. The last two playoff games, Buffalo, Denver and then the AFC title game

done by Jim, Nance, and Tony Romo. After all of the criticism, that he took for the Jacksonville Buffalo game, which was Wild Card Weekend, and people lit Romo up. And look, it's when everybody is sharing the same experience at the same time. That's what you get in the playoffs. You don't get that during the regular season necessarily,

because there are other games that are on, you know, you get your own team playing. I sensed, and I don't know if I've talked about this, I sensed that Tony Romo lost some confidence over the last two weeks. There was so much deferring to Jim Nance. Did you notice any of that? Did Andrew Wright? I'm curious if either one of you noticed that I think it got to him.

I think the criticism got to him. You know, he didn't have as much of a energy, it seems, as he's had in the past. But one thing I always like, look, you're a hardcore sports fan. Everybody listening to this is a hardcore sports fan. They all have their opinions about Tony Romo, and I respect that and that without question. TV executives care so much more about bringing in the casual fan. And what the casual fan hears is like not Tony Romo making a bad picture, or forgetting things. They just hear an excitement in his voice.

They hear like somebody, they hear a little kid having a great time and they want to be part of that party. and they, they're not, they're not, they're not saying like, oh, everybody hates him, but we're going to move it forward. They do polling. They have, they have focus groups and casual fans. They respond to Tony. He's a likable guy that people want to listen to. So I sometimes have to check myself when I'm watching because I'm watching as a hardcore fan. Well, and I also think, and this changed many years ago, the game itself, even,

to hardcore football fans matters so much more than the announcing team calling the game. Yeah, absolutely. But even with that, like, I'm watching Tom Brady, who was much better at this season. Oh, I agree. And he was talking about an upper seven

defense, and I was like, I've watched football for 50 years. I have no clue what you're talking about in upper set. I think I could figure it out. Like, if there was multiple choice, I think I would get it right, but I was like, come on. Yeah. By the way, college football title game between Indiana and Miami did a great number, right?

Oh, yeah, I think that I don't have it off the top of my head. I think it was over $30 million, which is really significant because it was $30 million on ESPN exclusively. And ESPN is, as you know, a cable channel, which is going through cord cutting and losing subscribers. So the fact that ESPN was able to amass that mass audience was pretty significant. Yeah, I mean, I bring that up because I think that there can be out of sight, out of mind possibilities. And college football has that, you know, 10-day, 9-day period from the semifinal games on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day to the championship game. But it was a compelling national championship game. Oh, I got to push back on that.

I see that. It never plays out. I mean, people will play out. What does it play out? The out of sight out of my part? The out of sight out of mine and the idea of like, oh, why are you doing a national championship on a Monday? Well, they don't want to go up against the NFL.

And if you're a college football fan and if you're a casual viewer, you're going to find it on the Monday. And they always do. I understand the reflexive action about like, oh, they've got to do something about it. But it has been working, at least from a media. Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that you and I talked about last year when they first went to 12. And you had the Friday night game and you had the three first round games. And the NFL was going head to head with those three first round games because Christmas was on a

Wednesday and you had that going on. We had that again this year. The skins and Eagles were playing at the same time that I think, you know, Madison was playing Oregon in those first round games. I really thought that when they went to the 12 team playoff, the NFL would get out of their way a bit for that first weekend, but they don't care, do they? Not only did the NFL not get out of their way, but remember, back when they scheduled the commanders versus the Eagles, it was an NFC championship rematch. Sure. It was a, the NFL put some very high-quality games up against those first-round games.

Yeah. And so that was the-Barrs Packers was the other one. That Saturday night, that crazy game at Soldier Field. That was the other one. It was less about, I think, like, screw you. And I think it was more about, like, you know, you've got to come to us and let's work together and try to figure out a schedule together. And the NCAA that they don't want to do that with.

College football doesn't want to do that with the NFL. With that said, like after the NFL and college football, what's the distant third from a consumer interest standpoint in this country? Because those are the top two. what's number three now? Is it the NBA or is it baseball? It's the NBA or it's baseball, I think. The World Series did really well.

Right. It's a great World Series. Yeah. And I do think it's sort of matchup dependent on the MLB or NBA, but I would put it as one of those two. It's so hard to say because how do you want, do you want to do it on an average viewership per game, or do you want to add it up?

Like you have 162 MLB games. They own the summer, you know, versus a... So it's really hard to say, and everybody can make their own point. But if you go to sort of the championship level games, sometimes it's the NBA, sometimes in MLB. And it's a... It would be one of those, too. Does college basketball draw anything before March?

Yeah, it does. It's hard now for linear TV networks to bring an audience. And so if you're getting certain, certain college basketball games that are, you know, getting upwards of, you know, one, two million viewers. You think that that's a pretty nice size audience in there. Mind you, when ESPN and CBS and NBC, when they make, when they sign their checks to the, to the conferences, they're doing it all for the, for football. So basketball is sort of almost thrown in there. But the audiences are good. It's kind of hard for you and I to tell this year because Maryland's audience is going through the floor.

But basketball still does pretty well. It's great TV because you get like, you know, these college students and their colors in the crowd and they're loud. Yeah. It's a, it's nobody would confuse it with the NFL or with college football, but it still does pretty well. And nobody would confuse it with the tournament and what the tournament does. draws. Of course. Yes. Yes. One more for you, and then I'll let you go. You've been so generous with your time. You always are. The $76 billion that the NBA's network partners spent, how's it working out? Are people finding the NBA games on Amazon, on Peacock, you know, all of these different outlets, and there are several of them. How's it going so far? Okay, you have hit one of my pet peeves because I hear from fans and from friends and from family complaining about it so hard to find, find, there's no evidence anywhere that any of these leagues are losing any audience by having everything sort of go across the different platforms or networks. And so it's a common complaint, and I hear the complaint, but people find the games and it might take a little bit longer to find it.

But no, there's been no evidence. The TV numbers for the NBA are doing really well, which a year ago when it was only on ESPN and Turner, they were doing really poorly. And so it's not just the NBA. You can look at women's soccer, the NWSL. you can look at NASCAR. People find all, they find the sports, although it is a complaint that I hear probably most consistently from friends. I think for me, because I'm not a big NBA regular season watcher unless my own team's good and they are not. There have been some times where I've been surprised this year, like an NBC Friday night doubleheader. I didn't know that that's what we were going to have this year.

They're getting ready to start it on Sunday night basketball is getting ready to start up. It might be this weekend. There was a release in my inbox that I saw. I forget when it is, but it's not this weekend. Actually, it can't be the following one because that's the Super Bowl. Exactly. Yeah, there is a double-header Lakers Knicks at 7 and Thunder Nuggets at 930.

Thanks for doing this, as always. It's great information. It's good conversation. Hope you're well. Let's do it again soon. Oh, are you kidding? Me? Anytime, Kevin.

John Orand, everybody again, at Orand, O-U-R-A-N-D-U-R-A-N-D-P-U-R-A-N-D-P-U-R-A-N-S-P-U-R-N-S-N-E-N-B-W-A-W-N-W-N-W-N-W-N-W-N-B-W-W-