The Kevin Sheehan Show - Why Not WR Brian Thomas Jr.?

Episode Date: June 19, 2026

Kevin opened with a Len Bias story 40 years after his passing to the day. He then responded to an emailer who wonders why the Commanders haven't targeted Jacksonville WR Brian Thomas Jr.? Evan Washburn/CBS Sports joined Kevin a few days following his one-on-one interview with Dan Quinn. John Ourand/Puck News jumped on to discuss the NBA's great playoff and Finals ratings along with the World Cup, the NFL, and a lot more.   For all your football betting needs: DCRELOAD at MyBookie for a 50% Deposit Match   Chime is not just smarter banking, it is the most rewarding way to bank. Head to www.Chime.com/SHEEHAN. It only takes a few minutes to sign up.     Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it, but you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Here's Kevin. Two guests on the show with me today. Evan Washburn from CBS Sports will jump on next segment. Evan is one of the best sideline reporters. He does NFL games for CBS, college basketball games for CBS,

and he was out in Ashburn earlier this week for a one-on-one sit-down with Dan Quinn. Following Evan, my friend John Oran from Puck News will join me. John is the best when it comes to sports media and sports business. We'll talk about the NBA finals, which drew a massive audience. We'll talk some World Cup as well. The show's presenting sponsor, as always, Windonation, 86690 Nation or WindowNation.com, if you need new windows. This from Terps, Fe 34. Terps F.E.34 writes, Kevin, I loved the stories about Len Bias. I can't believe it's been 40 years.

You and your guest did a nice job reminiscing. I'm glad you mentioned that the Terps beat Villanova in the 85 regular season before losing to Villanova in the Sweet 16. That regular season game was one of Lenny's best. Yeah, if you missed Wednesday's show, Dave Ungradie, who is written multiple Maryland sports books, including Born Ready, the book about Len Bias' life. Dave has a podcast series out right now called 40 for 34. It's 40 stories about bias. I actually narrated a few of those stories. He asked me to do that last year. 40 stories about Len Bias. And he told some of those stories on Wednesday show. If you're a Maryland basketball fan, if you're a Len Bias fan, I think you will enjoy that conversation as Terps F.E.34 did. You know, the 85 season was Len Bias's junior year, and Maryland played Villanova twice in that season.

They played them in the regular season at Colfield House, and then they met in the Sweet 16 in Birmingham, Alabama. Remember, the 85 season is the championship season for Raleigh Massimino and Villanova. They got to the final four, and they shocked Georgetown in that final, 66 to 64. The reason I actually brought up the Villanova game during Wednesday's show in my conversation with Dave, is that one of Dave's 40 stories was about the matchup in the second round for Maryland of that NCAA tournament against Navy. That was a matchup in Dayton, Ohio in the second round, and it pitted bias against a young and developing superstar David Robinson. And Dave told the story about how Lefty at halftime made a defensive switch and put bias on Robinson in the second half. and that was something that Lefty had always emphasized with bias from the time that he arrived in College Park was,

you've got to become a better defensive player. And bias worked on it, worked on it. And by the time he was a junior, lefty made the switch because Robinson was unstoppable in the first half. And Navy built an 11-point lead in that second round game. Maryland was the higher-seated team. Navy had a first-round upset that got them to the second round. They upset LSU in the first round, and Maryland was supposed to win that game, but they were in big trouble, and then Lefty puts bias on David Robinson, and Robinson has two total points in the second half,

and Marilyn roars back to win, and then they advance to the Sweet 16, which is why Villanova came up in the conversation, because what was interesting is after bias played so great in that win over Navy, leading Maryland, to a comeback win and into the Sweet 16, Maryland then lost to Villanova in the Sweet 16 on a night that was probably Len Bias's worst night as a Maryland basketball player. He was four for 13, and Maryland lost 46 to 43 in a Sweet 16 game. Now, no shot clock back then, but a hideous offensive game for both teams. And literally Villanova goes on to win the national championship, but needed bias to have one of his worst shooting performances of his career.

And they barely survived that, and 1-46-43 went on to win the national championship. But here's something interesting for you, Terps F.E.34. So that regular season game that came, you know, a month earlier at Cole Fieldhouse, was indeed one of Bias' best games. In fact, it was his best game up until that point at Maryland. And I found the Washington Post story about that game written by, on January 27, 1985, written by John Feinstein, John Feinstein, one of his first jobs. By the way, Wilbon had the same gig when he got to the post was covering Maryland sports. And this is what John wrote about Maryland's 77 to 74 win over 14th ranked Villanova on that Sunday afternoon in College Park. He wrote, the Cole Field House clock was ticking down to six minutes and 15 seconds and 14th ranked Villanova. was making a run. Maryland's 52 to 40 lead with nine minutes and 33 seconds left was now 56 to 54, and the Terrapins looked rattled. The sellout crowd of 14,500 is standing. Keith Gatlin bounces

down court and puts up one finger. Len Bias goes to the low post. He crouches and glares at Gatlin, as if to say, get it right here, right now. Gatlin passes to Bias, who has two men on him. He dribbles once, turns, and leans into a bank shot. Automatic, the crowd comes back to life, the tension on the Maryland bench eases, and a Villanova Falathon later, the Terrapins have their second victory of the weekend, 77 to 74. In 38 minutes, Bias had 30 points and 13 rebounds, both career highs. By the way, I don't know if you took note of what John Feinstein wrote, that Maryland had their second victory of the weekend, 77 to 74.

This is really strange, but it used to happen back then. Maryland played on Saturday, January 26th in Cole Fieldhouse against Notre Dame and beat the hell out of the fighting Irish, and then came back the next day, Sunday, January 27th, and played 14th-ranked Villanova and beat them. I mean, back-to-back games in late January. You get that, you know, in November in these tournaments,

but you don't get that in the regular season once you're into, and those are two non-conference games. So the Terps went out of conference, in late January and played Notre Dame at Coldfield House and College Park on a Saturday and Villanova the next day. By the way, in John's story, Maryland was just outside the top 20, and they would bust into the top 20 after the weekend that they had. And lefty was asked, where do you think you'll be ranked?

And he was flicking ashes from a victory cigar, and he said, quote, probably number two. And he said, actually, I don't know, you know. But I definitely think we deserve to be in the top 10 with the teams we've beaten. By the way, there's a quote from Villanova's Ed Picney, one of the star players of that Villanova team and that eventual Villanova national championship team. By the way, Pinkney in that game had 29 and 16. He said, quote, there's a thin line between a fine player and a great player.

bias crosses the line to greatness. When it was close, we knew we was going to get the ball, but what do you do to stop him? Once he gets the ball, he's either going to jump over you and hit his shot or take that great first step and dunk. You know it's coming, they know it's coming, everybody knows it's coming, but still you can't stop him. Closed quote.

Yeah, he was, He was something else, man. He really was. And I remember that regular season weekend. I remember that game. He had a dunk in that game over Ed Pinkney that was insane, that brought the house down. But that was a big win for Maryland. And they went on in 85 to have a good season.

They won a first round game over Miami of Ohio, who was led by Ron Harper. The Ron Harper, who's got five NBA rings with the Bulls. Ron Harper had 34 in a 69-68 overtime loss in the first round, so the Terps barely survived their first round game, and then had to come back against Navy in their second round game, and then bowed out to Villanova with bias shooting, having his worst shooting night of his career in the Sweet 16. The rest is history because Villanova went on to beat North Carolina in the Elite 8.

Maryland would have matched up against Carolina in the elite eight that season, and they had beaten Carolina in the ACC tournament. But it was Nova. Nova beat North Carolina went on to win the national championship. 40 years ago today, bias passed away. I just can't believe it's been that long. All right. This from my guy, Seth in Potomac.

Seth writes, Kevin, one of your callers, really pushed you on the lack of a true number two wide receiver and why Adam Peters hasn't done nearly enough. With Ayukes still in the picture and hanging around, why isn't another former Jaden Daniels teammate talked about more? Isn't Jacksonville still trying to trade Brian Thomas Jr.? Why not him? Thank you for that, Seth. We have obviously talked a lot about what Adam Peters has done, what he hasn't done, what he tried to do, but didn't get done. Yeah, the wide receiver position, the number two wide receiver position has been a rather big topic here in this offseason. And we've talked about Brian Thomas Jr. I mean, started talking about

Brian Thomas Jr. at the trade deadline last year. Now, Washington in that moment wasn't really a buyer because the season was starting to implode. But Brian Thomas Jr. was reportedly on the block at the trade deadline in his second season following an outstanding rookie season, which was really strange. Red flags all over Brian Thomas Jr. last year being made available by Jacksonville at the trade deadline in year two on a rookie deal following an outstanding rookie season. It didn't make sense to anybody that was paying attention. Now, for those of you who weren't paying attention or just need a reminder,

Brian Thomas Jr. was Jacksonville's number 23 overall first round pick in 2024. Same draft, of course, where his college quarterback, Jaden Daniels, went number two overall. Brian Thomas Jr. and Malik neighbors were Jaden's top two targets during Jaden's Heisman campaign in 2023. I actually went back and looked at their numbers. Insane, especially when you consider, you know, they only play 12 regular season games. They had a bowl game as well. But in that 2023 season, Jaden's Heisman Trophy winning season, Brian Thomas Jr. and Malik neighbors combined for 157 catches, 2,746 yards, and 31 touchdowns.

Now, Brian Thomas Jr. had 68 of the catches, 1177 yards, and 17 of the 31 touchdowns. You know, this LSU wide receiver, you know, parade of greatness was in effect that year. And then, by the way, in 2024, neighbors and Thomas Jr. had outstanding rookie campaigns. for Thomas Jr. in Jacksonville, I mean, he killed it as a rookie. 87 catches, 1,282 yards, 12 touchdowns. You know, after that rookie season, it seemed like he and Malik neighbors were going to join Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson and all of the great LSU receivers. You know, they were, you know, heading in that direction of elite greatness.

But 2025 last year. was a major step-back season for Thomas Jr. in Jacksonville. Hence, the attempt to trade him. Remember, Jacksonville last year is having a great season, a 13 and 4 regular season. They are a contender. They're going to the playoffs, and they tried to trade their best receiver from the year before. Now, he did miss three games last year, so he played in 14 of the 17 games, but he really struggled, mostly because he had a difficult time hanging on to the football, catching the football. He ended the season last year with 48 catches compared to 87 as a rookie, 7707 yards, and two touchdowns. So a major step-back season, and he became an after.

afterthought for Trevor Lawrence and the Jacksonville offense later in the season. And the reason for that was he couldn't catch a cold. He could not catch the football. He had a 6.6% drop rate last year. What does that mean? It's twice the average for high volume receivers last year. It was. 6.6% drop rate per ESPN was twice the average for high-volume receivers in 2025. And the drops happened primarily in the middle of the field, in breaking routes across the middle. On throws between the numbers, according to ESPN, Thomas had a catch rate of 48.4%, which was the fifth worst among high-volume receivers.

As a rookie, as a point of comparison, his catch rate for similar throws, 79.4%. So drops were the issue. You do wonder, though, really drops halfway through the season and we're going to try to trade this guy? Really? I don't know, you know, all of the reasons why they tried to trade him and why I think they were still trying to trade him up until the draft. this year. I mean, he is still fast, he still has great size, but they basically stopped running him on over the middle of the field throws late in the season and into the postseason. He is still capable of stretching the field because he's got great speed. You know, he has great vertical speed,

but clearly Jacksonville lost a lot of confidence in him, so much so that they wanted to trade him. in year two after a great rookie season. That's where I would wonder why. Why did they want to trade them? You know, the drops are one thing, but that can't be the whole thing, not for a team that's contending. None of it made sense. You know, they went out, Jacksonville did,

and added a receiver at last year's trade deadline. They traded for Jacoby Myers, who was with the Raiders, and he played well along with Parker Washington. They were essentially Trevor Lawrence's top two targets down the stretch and into the postseason. Thomas Jr. did have a touchdown catch early in that playoff loss against Buffalo, which, as an aside, I thought was the best start to finish playoff game last year. But when people have asked the question like Seth did, why not Brian Thomas Jr., isn't the easy answer a question? Why would Jacksonville want to trade him? And then why apparently nobody else around the league was interested in trading for him

when Jacksonville was making him available? I think those are the questions you have to ask as a fan. He's an athlete. He's fast. He's got great size. He's still in Jacksonville. And the talk down there through the spring was at first, They're still trying to deal him, but since they weren't able to deal him,

now the talk is about a bounce back year for him in 2026. I guess it's possible that they were asking too much for him, and that's why they couldn't trade him. But there are red flags around that one. And yes, there are red flags around Brandon Ayuk and Tyree Kill and Stefan Diggs, of course. But in the case of Thomas Jr., you would have to trade for him. And it doesn't seem like they're going to do that

or that Jacksonville is going to release him. Not entirely sure about the Brian Thomas Jr. saga, but it is a weird one. I mean, you don't typically have a player that plays the way he did as a rookie and then halfway through the following season his team's trying to trade him. That reeks. All right. Evan Washburn from CBS Sports next after these words from a few of our sponsors.

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sports. You know, Evan, from his sideline work on NFL games and also college basketball NCAA tournament games. He does a great job. I think, by the way, last year, you were with Ian Eagle, right? And maybe even JJ Watt, wasn't he part of

Ian Eagle's pairing? That's correct. Yeah, I and I have been together for and this might be our 11th season and JJ joined us last year and it was great to have him. He did an unbelievable job. Yeah, I thought he was really good too. And Ian Eagle is certainly one of the best, and it's a great group for CBS, the number two group with you a big

part of it as well. By the way, you can follow Evan on X at Evan Washburn. Evan's actually a local for the most part. Grew up in Annapolis, I believe, and still live in the area, right? Correct. Yeah, grew up in Annapolis, went to Severn school, and been in Baltimore now for, man, I think it's a little over 15 years. So, been in and around the DMV my entire life. Are you a fan of any teams? Well, it's interesting when I'm 41, and people often ask, you're a Ravens fan, because if you're Annapolis, you're kind of splitting between D.C. and Baltimore. I remember growing up,

well, the Redskins, because the Colts had left, and my dad was a Colts fan, so he just kind of moved over to the skins, and then, when the Ravens showed up when we were in, I guess, middle school and had tickets so would go to games. But I wouldn't say that I was living in dying by every game or down. And then, as you know, once you get into the business, you kind of get behind the curtain a little bit, it does take the fandom out. But you root for people.

So there's plenty of people in these buildings, whether it be D.C., Baltimore, Pittsburgh, that I root for because I know that when those teams do well, life's a lot better for them. Yeah. Evan, by the way, went to the University of Delaware, played lacrosse there for all four years. All right, have you looked at, by the way, week one? Because I think I've picked out where you're going to be. I'm assuming you don't know yet. I like this. You don't know yet, right?

No, we won't know until probably the third week of August. All right. So I'm assuming, you know, Nance and Romo will have Packers Vikings at 425 because that's the big CBS 425 game. And so I've got you with Ian and JJ Watt in Houston for Bill's Texans. You've done this before. I would agree. I think that that's a good bet. It's a fun game.

Our entire crew plays. So announcers and producer-director, all the behind-the-scenes folks, we look at the schedule when it gets released, and we all put together our 1 through 18, weeks 1 through 18, our prediction for where our crew's going. and it's kind of a fun, you know, everybody put something in a pot and then the winner at the end of the year, whoever had the best percentage, if you will, of those predictions. And it's gotten a lot harder with this fractured schedule and random Christmas and Black Friday games. Right.

But I think the consensus of the group was, yes, Texans bills, which we've ended up doing the last few years, so it'll be fun to do another chapter in it. Now, I'm looking at Washington's schedule. they've got two CBS games currently on the schedule. The last three games of the year, Flex games, TBD games. There's some Saturday, Sunday, possible choices there. But the two games right now earmarked for CBS, Sunday, December 6th at Tennessee. I bet you're not there.

But maybe Sunday, December 13th, Houston in Landover, that's a possibility. I like it. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think both D.C. and I would put Houston in this category, they fall in my, it could go one of two ways this year. And they could be a team that finds itself in December as the prime one o'clock window game or one of the, I mean, as we know, it's kind of the map, if you will, the coverage map. And depending on the quality of the team and the matchup, they dictates more of that coverage map. So DC and Houston could be, one of those that's definitely taken a majority of the country at 1 p.m. late in the season. Yeah, you know, you, I'm trying to think of, I love playing these schedule games, too,

and I've been doing this for years on my show. I actually, you know, it's become super popular. I'm actually thinking about hanging it up now that everybody's doing it. But for 20 years, I've been doing like a mock schedule before the schedule comes out. I love it. Yeah, and so I love these games. And then I love figuring out, you know, which network. in which network teams we're going to have. But I'm trying to think of the playoff games that you had,

because obviously Ion's the number two team. Did you have Buffalo, Denver? Did you have that overtime game? Were you there? So I was. So the way it works for me, our crew every, I think it's every other year. Again, it's all changing now with more people involved,

whether it be the streamers in Amazon, ESPN's larger role in terms of playoff coverage, and now having a Super Bowl. Every other year, let's call it, our crew, so I and JJ now and myself would have a wild card game, and then sometimes a divisional game as well. And then whenever our crew is not doing playoffs, I would join the A crew.

So I had Buffalo. So I was in Denver for the Patriots Broncos AFC championship game. I was not there for Buffalo, Denver, which would have been the divisional. So were you in Foxborough for the divisional round? I think I was actually doing, I think our crew didn't have a game, but instead of adding me as a second sideline, I was doing coverage from an NFC site for our pregame show. So whenever we have AFC champ, we always have AFC champ. So AFC champion, whenever we have Super Bowl, it's a guaranteed two sideline situations.

Tracy Wilson and myself. And then other playoff games is kind of TBD. Sometimes we have the game, so we'll just do it as a normal crew, or they'll add a second. or you're doing NFC coverage. How about that conference championship game in Denver? Like I keep thinking about last year just in that the Seattle, New England matchup, even when we got to the postseason, was very improbable from my standpoint. I actually thought the Rams were the best team in the league, and their special teams

heard them twice against Seattle, including in the NFC title game. and I really thought Houston was one of the best defensive teams I've watched in recent years and I thought they might end up making a deep run. But when we got to that AFC championship game and Jared Stidham is starting for Bo Nix and the snow comes in in the second half, that was a wild game. In part, right, Evan, because the snow really wasn't predicted to come in that soon or that strongly. 100%.

It was unlike anything, so that was year 12 of doing sidelines, I guess 14, if you fact, some college football. So just kind of being in the elements. And we've had some crazy cold games, some crazy wet games. But you're right. I think for both teams, it was the fact that it was not predicted to be that impactful to the play. But anyone who's spent time in Denver knows things can change dramatically quick.

I don't think, and I don't think either team necessarily used it as an excuse for the outcome, but it definitely impacted what you could do schematically. So, and it gave, I think, New England an edge because they seemed to figure out quicker what they could and couldn't do. And Denver, on top of figuring out, hey, what is Stidham capable of? Now we got a factor in, all right, what is Stidham capable of doing in the Bonix plan, but now with an incredible snow blizzard snowblow situation where it was that situation too, and it was cool to be a part of trying to help the viewer understand it.

Depending on what direction you were going, it was wildly different in terms of the impact who's going to have on the ability to throw the ball and really do anything because it was directly in your face going one way. It was directly behind you, so it wasn't as impactful going the other. So it was cool. It was wild, and I definitely think it gave New England an even better opportunity to win. Yeah, it was certainly a memorable title game because of the changing elements. All right, so one of the reasons I reached out to you, actually the primary reason,

is you got together with Dan Quinn the other day for about 20 minutes or so, and I was curious as to what you kind of thought were the big takeaways. You know, when you sit down with coaches and you do it all the time. and you're part of the crew, I'm sure, that goes in, you know, a day early and gets to talk to quarterbacks and coaches as part of the broadcast team. But what did you think was interesting about what Quinn told you the other day? So just a little context. It was part of an overall series that I've wanted to do for a number of years,

and finally was able to get greenlit through our commitment to the YouTube platform about process. And I've heard the term process, as you have. have all these years talking to athletes and coaches. And I would say for the most part, it's always fallen in the category of a cliche, but I felt like there was an opportunity to maybe get a little deeper into what that actually looks like. And so I used process as a broad theme for a series, but separated into three categories for three episodes. So I looked at it, the physical process, the mental process, and the emotional process of an offseason for an coach and or a player.

And for the physical, kind of obvious, what do you do physically to prime your body for the season? I wanted a quarterback. We did it with Sam Darnold. He took us through a throwing session in the offseason. It was really a how-to of throw the football. It was really interesting and enjoyed it. The mental I wanted to do an NFL head coach in their process of how do they review

a season and going into that self-scouting process, and how it impacts the approach going ahead the following year, whether things ended poorly or positively. And then lastly, it's the emotional that one will release next week. That's how does a player refill the emotional tank after a long season. Basically, what's their joy off the field? We played golf with Kyle Hamilton, and it was a great time. So back to DQ.

So he was who I wanted to have. For process. For process, the mental. Yeah, the mental. And largely because every time I have spent time with him, as you mentioned in those production meetings, he inevitably is so open and not about like, hey, we're going to run this play on third down or we're going to run this defense against what they do, just more about how they build out their culture and the foundation and to use his term, the standards and those things. So I thought, well, if I can get an hour, which is what we got, and a little over an hour with him, I think he'd be great for this. and he was. And to answer your specific question, the biggest takeaway was how much 2025 definitely impacted him,

as you imagine it would, the disappointment of it, in the decision-making that he's brought to 2026 when it comes to everything this coaching staff is going to do to make sure that that doesn't happen again. And that sounds obvious on the surface, but the level of detail that, that, that, this guy brings to who's obviously on the staff, but how the staff's interacting, how they're meeting, how they're reviewing film, what the film's supposed to look like, all those things. That was, I think, something that consistently came up no matter what I asked him. Yeah, I played a portion of it on my show yesterday, and it was the part in which you kind of

asked him to, you know, evaluate 20-25 and, you know, what you're doing to, you know, kind of correct it. And he said, and you set it up with, you know, this was the most injured team in the league in terms of week one starters. And, you know, look, they didn't have their quarterback for essentially he played four games start to finish. When you lose your best player and he's a quarterback for 13 of the 17 games in terms of playing start to finish, you're pretty much doomed in the NFL, and they were certainly doomed. But I thought his answer was an interesting one in that when he was on with me two months ago, I asked him a similar question, and he said, look, you know, you kind of clean the slate

because you know that, you know, there wasn't a whole hell of a lot you could do, but you have to go back and find out why your team ended up being so injured. You know, was it our process? Was it our training? Was it our, the way we handled the injuries? Was it our practice schedule? And he didn't tell me what he told you, which I thought was very interesting. And that is, he felt right from the jump that they weren't as sharp, they weren't as urgent,

they weren't as competitive, they weren't as connected was a word that he used with you. And wasn't as desperate, exactly. I thought that was interesting. and you know, so give me what you kind of took away from that, because they were doomed once Jaden was done for 13 games. They were never going to win more games than they lost without their best player on the field, not to mention all of their other best players who were out for significant portions of the season. And yet, maybe the season was in trouble even before the injuries.

I think what I took from it was just, and it's something we all know because we say it, but it was a healthy reminder. The margin for error in this league is so, so slim. And we talk about each game coming down to often a score. But the fact that I don't think he was selling me a bill of goods, that he really feels like now with, again, context, the ability to review, he could see in an OTA film practically a film of an OTA practice and whatever that is, call it April or May.

And he put it right next to an OTA, April May practice from the 2024 season, ahead of the 2024 season. And they could see as a staff the stark difference in the desperation, in the execution, in the intensity, all those things. That's a reminder of the things that are happening in that building right now will dictate whether or not that team wins or loses more in 2026. Yes, he's not going to make the point, even though I do think coaches and players mistake, there's explanations for the things and there's excuses.

It's a right to give an explanation that our best players were injured and we were without them. That's an explanation as to the why. But what I appreciate about Dan is he feels like it's deeper than that. And that's taking real accountability because it's really easy to talk about the injuries because I think it's a real reason why they struggled. But he's looking at it like even if we're healthy, there were things that I didn't like about our process and what we did as a staff last year. That's why we looked at that tape and why they burned and went through that exercise of burning aspects of their process and the things they did as a staff as sort of a cathartic experience getting ready. for 2026.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, the fine line between winning and losing in the NFL is finer than in any other professional sports league. And, you know, we as, you know, commentators and as fans, we understand watching this league that injuries are a legitimate reason

for why a season went the way it went, but you don't want your coaches using it as excuses. And Quinn didn't. You know, even when I asked him, he said, well, it's not about that. It's about finding out why it happened and going back and learning. And I think the big takeaway from that part of the conversation is what you just said is that it was for him, you know, even without the injuries, there was something that was off. So with that said, they got a new offensive coordinator and new defensive

coordinator. Do you think he senses that that's not going to happen again, that things are connected, things are urgent, things are desperate like they were in 2024, as much as they can be in April, May, and June? I think that he's been around it long enough as we have and you have to know that you don't know right now. You can't say with 100% conviction that this will be different. But what I took away from it, and I witnessed it in the approach of that day, because we were in the building for a few hours prior to talking to folks, getting ready for Dan to be available to sit with us. And it's clear that their level of intensity in what was the first week of June

and has been the case up into that point, and I imagine will be up until they break before training camp and then throughout training camp, they're going to be able to walk away, and he made that point, too, in the interview. They will have exhausted every aspect of the process so that, the results will be what they will be, and they will not feel good about it if it's not good, but they will at least be able to sleep at night knowing, hey, we did everything we said we were going to do,

we did it with intention, there was no ambiguity. As he puts it, you're going to know how we'd get down the second you walk into this building, the second you watch us practice, the second you watch us play. And it feels like they kind of lost that a little bit last year, and they're going to do everything that they're physically and immensely and emotionally capable of

to at least make sure that doesn't happen. Whether that means they go back to an NFC title game or they're winning the division, again, that's what makes his league so entertaining. We have no idea. All right, let's take a quick break. I've got more with Evan. I'll ask him about the confidence in the building

about Jaden Daniels after a tough injury-riddled season and we'll get Evan's thoughts on what kind of team he thinks Washington will be in 2026. We'll get to all of that and more after these words from a few of our sponsors. If you get a chance and you haven't done it already, rate and review this podcast. It's really a big deal for us to get ratings and reviews. It's really easy to do, especially on Apple and Spotify. Just click the star account for the rating. You can give us up to five stars if you think the show deserves it. Obviously, that's the best case for us. You can also write a very quick review. One sentence is all that's needed on Apple. Following this podcast is a big deal as well. Just hit the plus button or the follow button.

We continue with Evan Washburn from CBS Sports. Do you think that there's any less confidence in Jaden Daniels than there was at the end of 2024 in that building? I'd be guessing if I would be complete because I just, that really wasn't a big topic. It's funny, I didn't ask one. I mean, you saw we trimmed what was probably a 45-minute interview down to whatever you saw about their 20. So I didn't ask one, Jade and Daniels question, because it was really pitched to Dan, and it's what I wanted to do is it was more of a view in the, again, the idea of process. But again, it would be speculative, but having kind of done this as, as, as.

as long as we have. I don't think anything that came out of last year would give me pause about what Jaden means to and can continue to be for that team. Health is a real thing, and I think we'll know pretty quickly if those unfortunate aspects from a health perspective are behind him. It doesn't mean he's going to be clean the rest of the way, whether it's this year moving forward, but I think there's still just an absolute rock-solid. comfort, if you will, that they know they have a guy, which is what every team in the league

is chasing from a quarterback position. Out of the 23, 24 minutes that got cut, what did we miss that would have been really good that you wanted to be in there? Well, some of the stuff we popped up on social, we did a little bit more retrospective, like just having him tell fun stories about Cam Chancellor. We got into things like the Marcus Mariotto play where he gets decked on the sideline, and I was kind of joking with him about, I mean, I kind of wish I was working that game as a sideline reporter because I would have loved to have tried to get something out of him going into half,

because I'm not sure he remembers going into half. Right, right. Stuff like that. And just kind of getting into his journey as a defensive lineman from Salisbury. It's funny thinking about where I grew up and living in this area. I think people forget. He spent a pretty pivotal portion of his life not far from where I am right now in Ocean's, City. I think he spent some time at Secret's on. I think he spent some time at Secrets

on. I'm pretty sure he did. Yeah. He's talked about it. Oh, good. Yeah. I should have gotten into that. I had I had we had done this interview prior, I would have come with Fager's questions. But no, I was just some of that stuff, which, again, will hopefully be repurposed in other ways. And we go, we did like a tour of the office. Some of that pops up on the front end of the the piece where, you know, he's got that cool painting that his wife gave him of Abraham Lincoln decked out and all this like blinged out, commanders gear and stuff like that. Like the other part of it, Kevin, which I know you do in your side of things, and what I hope we can do for fans is the personalities of both players and coaches is something I'm always fascinated with.

Because as special as they are in their craft, they're just human beings. They're just like us. They do a lot of the same stuff. They have a lot of the same insecurities, vulnerabilities, passions, whatever it might be. And walking around his office and having him show me like the Hawaii stuff, which I know didn't make the piece. And we were trying to find a way to get it in there. It just didn't really fit with the flow. But like how important going to Hawaii for him in the office.

The way he put it is like, I'm in the red when I go there. And now when I come back, which is right before training camp, like he's in the green. He's primed and he's ready. And like it's spiritual, it's physical, it's all the things. you know, that we're talking about with process. And so that was probably another big ticket item that we didn't get in there that I thought was really cool. Like he's in a rowing club in the morning.

I'm going to mispronounce the boats that they row in Hawaii or wherever his place is. But he was talking about how cool that is for him to be a part of that community in the mornings and stuff. Do you think he's feeling pressure heading into this season? Oh, yeah, for sure. And not in terms like a hot tea type pressure. I think, look, this is his life. I mean, he's all ball all the time. I think all coaches, to some degree, are,

but I would say there's a spectrum there. Sometimes it's dictated by, is he a young coach that's got young kids, and he's got some other things, he's got to manage. Like, Dan Quinn is like, this is, I mean, he was talking about his schedule, and he's not, I don't mean it, like an unhealthy way, but, like, this is what he's 100% in whenever we were talking, in first week of June, it felt like at times I kind of, I've, like, is this too intense?

Because I did want these to feel a little light, these pieces. Like, definitely with Sam and with Kyle, it's got a lighter tone. Like, Dan, as you watch the interview, like, it's, it was, I took it away from it. Like, this is a guy who's feeling it. Like, he's ready to go with 26 because not does he just want to put 20, 25, him. He wants to put into practice all of the things that he's done the day that season ended to now. And then obviously in the week one.

So I do feel like there's a pressure. He feels a pressure. Any of the guys in that position do. But I also think that's kind of what he's attracted to. I mean, this is what he wants to do more than anything. It would appear, and that's important if you're in that role. What do you think about Washington in 2026? I touched on it when we're going through some of the matchups.

I really do feel like they're a team that there's always, always, and it's the beauty of the league. I do say each year I'm involved in it, I feel like the less I know when it comes to who's going to be good and who's not. But you do, when I'm setting up my training camp tour, I kind of look at the league and go, all right, who do I think I'm going to have to see a lot of, and that means they're going to be on the better end or higher end of wins and losses.

And I would say Washington definitely is not a team that I would cross off a training camp tour list where I'm just like, I'm just not going to see them. So it might be a waste of a trip just when you have limited time. Washington, to me, is like, I could go there. I can invest time. Like, they're going to be in the mix, and I would feel confident in doing that. But I wouldn't be shocked if it still was a grind. I think they're going to be much improved from last year,

but that's, I don't think, good enough for that fan base and even for that building. So they're a question-marked team for me. as much as anybody is, or I should say everybody is, but they're one where I wouldn't, like, put the house on, like, they're back in the mix, uh, winning that division. And, but if you told me they were, I would totally understand why, because I just kind of lived it at least for a day. I mean, they were horrible defensively last year, even before the injuries. Yeah, the coordinator thing is going to be, and I do, and I was in the piece, too, and I appreciated it, he was like, look, I'm going to be, I'm bold, like, this is what I want.

Yes. That is a massive, maybe that's why I'm so waffling here. I just don't know what David Blow is going to be like as a play caller. You know, Durante stepping in the defensive side. He's been in and around great defenses. He hasn't called one. So, you know, Dan's can obviously have his impact there, as he always does. So it's just those two positions are important, and we don't really know anything right now. You know, you said something just a moment ago, and I just jotted it down. said, you know, they're going to be better next year, but being better isn't good enough for the fans, and it's not even good enough for the building. What did you mean by the building? Do you mean ownership? Do you mean general manager, or do you just mean the entire building? Because when I asked you the question about pressure, when I asked you the question about pressure,

there are a lot of our fans, and you know our fan base, that think that Dan's entering this season on a very hot seat. Yeah, look, I get that. That comes with the market. it and the way things go, really just in the league in general these days. No, I meant the pressure because I think the internal standard for what Dan wants and what Adam Peters wants and what everybody wants is to be better and to be relevant and to not have to deal with what they dealt with last year. So, yeah, speaking to the organizational pressure or management or ownership, I would have no idea. But that's just the life in the league, man.

people quickly forget what you did a year ago or two years ago. Thank you for doing this. I know you've got to run. I always enjoy having you on. You do such a great job, and we'll do it again, hopefully, before the season begins. Good job on that thing. It's called The Process. You guys can get access to it through either Evan's X account, which is at Evan Washburn,

but just search for it on NFL on CBS on YouTube, and two of the episodes are up, and they look really good, and the one with Dan was excellent. Thanks, Evan. Thanks, Kevin. Talk to you down the road. Evan Washburn, CBS Sports, everybody. We'll talk next with my friend John Orand about the NBA finals and the audience for the NBA finals, the audience and the business around the World Cup on Fox.

John's next, after these words, from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show is brought to you by MyBooky. If you want to bet the World Cup, the place to do it is at My Booky. It starts by going to MyBooky.ag. You can also go to MyBooky.com, both work. And when you make your first deposit,

use my promo code, Kevin D.C. And your first bet will be covered up to $500 with MyBooky's bet back bonus. That means that you make your first bet. They'll allow it up to $500. And if it doesn't win, you get your money back if you've opted in to the betback bonus using my promo code, Kevin D.C.

My bookie, by the way, has all of their NFL 2026 futures numbers up. The week one lines are up. They've been up for a while now since the schedule came out. Washington at Philadelphia, the Eagles are four and a half point favorites, and the total is 47 for that week one Sunday, September 13. 425 game at the link. The biggest favorite in week one, the LA Chargers are 10 and a half point favorites over the Cardinals. That's also in the late window on Sunday, September 13th. Almost every other game, though, is basically four or less points. I guess there's a couple of seven-point lines. Detroit's minus seven over New Orleans in week one. Jacksonville's a seven and a half point favorite over Cleveland. But every other game,

after that is four or less. A lot of close matchups, at least on paper, heading into week one. My bookie's got everything you need. Use my promo code for World Cup betting. It's Kevin D.C. You'll get up to that $500 betback bonus. All right now is my friend John Orand from Puck News. He's simply the best when it comes to sports business writing.

and reporting in sports media, writing and reporting. You can follow John on X at Orand, O-U-R-A-N-D- underscore puck. All right, I want to start with this. The NBA Finals, what kind of audience, John, would the NBA finals have gotten?

The Knicks and the Spurs, had there been a game six or even, can you imagine, a game seven? Oh, that game seven, with the it was so unique because it was the New York market

and it was a really likable New York team with one of the star players in Wemby because San Antonio is not a big market

but as a big star player I mean that would have approached championship level but not the Super Bowl of course but NFC AFC championship level number

wow for the NFL I would bet but you know what's so unique about the NBA is that that it's not market dependent at all. Wemby, people tuned in for Wembe and watch him. You know, Janus in Milwaukee.

You know, you have a lot of examples of small market teams with these big stars that people tune in for. And so adding in the New York market on top of that really helped matters with the NBI. I mean, they're so thrilled by, I mean, they wish they had a couple more games, but they are so thrilled by the whole playoffs. You know, it's interesting what you said. Janice and Wembe is foreign players in the NBA finals, drawing big audiences. Yokic did the same thing in 2023 when Denver won it,

even though it was a less appealing matchup, Denver, Miami, versus what we just saw with New York and San Antonio. And it just made me think about something. And I just want your thoughts on this. I was a big tennis fan for much of my life, but not so much over the last 20 or so years. And tennis really has kind of died out in terms of interest level in the U.S. It's nowhere near what it was in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. And I think a big part of it is that there was never during this heyday of men's tennis,

you know, Djokovic, Federer and Adol, there wasn't a big, American star. I mean, Roddick was there briefly, but there wasn't a consistent championship contending American male star. We had Serena on the women's side, but I think the interest level in men's tennis died out in this country because there wasn't an American star, and yet in the NBA, it doesn't matter, and it hasn't mattered. Are you watching the Rafa documentary series on Netflix? I'm not. My wife is watching the movie. that and she's like, oh, who wins this match? I'm like, I have no idea.

It was, it was, uh, Rotha versus, uh, Federer. Right. And it was, uh, you're right. Uh, I, but tennis is a, you know, it's not a team sport. And, and Yokic is in Denver, and he's representing the Denver Nuggets. And the Denver Nuggets have a, you know, that, that's a slice of Americana right there. And, and, uh, and Wembe is in San Antonio, and they have a long history of, you know, David Robinson and 10.

Duncan and star players there. So it would probably be different if the NBA was like a one-on-one league, and all of a sudden you have these international players that sometimes played in America, but usually played in other foreign cities. Tennis has his own set of circumstances that are tough, but I can tell you that the NBA is not seeing any sort of – I think they wish they would like to see an American star, sort of step up, but they're not really seeing any kind of step back because the stars happen to be

international. They're playing for, you know, U.S.-based teams. Tell me about the NBA right now, because they're just coming off, as we've discussed, the most watched NBA finals since Jordan was in his final NBA finals in 1998. And yet, for me, and I think for you, and a lot of, the listeners. It's an impossible watch during the regular season. Is it a sport kind of like college hoops that's gone the way of people will start paying attention in March for college basketball and in April and May for the NBA, but the regular season struggles? Well, that is a problem and the NBA recognizes that it's a problem. And that's why they do. Everybody makes fun

of the NBA Cup, you know, that little tournament that happens in November and December. The Knicks won the double this year, Kevin. I know. They should celebrate that. Didn't they beat San Antonio? I mean, I'm pretty sure they beat San Antonio in the final of the NBA Cup, right? It is so funny that I can't answer that question. I may not, but that tells you right there.

I'm not even sure. Yeah. But, you know what? I don't know if it's a second season or third season of the NBA Cup. it has a potential to grow. And while it's going on, I pay attention to it. The courts are different. It feels different.

It doesn't necessarily feel bigger. And I know that, you know, Dolan didn't want to raise any kind of championship banner for winning the NBA Cup. But it has a potential to make that aspect of the regular season a little bit better. There's been a lot of talk about possibly culling the number of games down, you know, instead of having 82 going down to 60 or something. anything like that, that almost certainly is not going to happen. You're not going to see Ted Leontas agreeing to say, oh, yeah, we'll give up 10 games of ticket revenue and selling beers and sodas and hot dogs and things like that.

So that's unlikely. So they're trying to do different things to get the players involved. I mean, that's why you can't be an MVP if you miss so many games because they don't like the whole load management aspect of it. but you look at these playoffs and you look at how hard they play for the full game. And that's what the basketball should be like. That's what we want to see. And you certainly don't get that at a wizard's game in November.

It's so good. The NBA playoffs are, and this was particularly a good year. I mean, the TV deal was like $70 billion plus, right, for 10 or 11 years or something like that. And because you and I talked about it when they did that deal a few years ago. And it seemed like an awful lot. I'm wondering how that deal's going for all of the networks, ESPN, you know, Disney, NBC, Amazon, etc. $76 billion from those three. Just an incredible number going out 11 years.

Right now, and this happens. I've been covering this stuff for a couple of decades. At the beginning of these deals, they always look terrible. And there's almost no chance that NBC is making money off the NBA this season. The same with ESPN, probably the same with Amazon, even though Amazon pays the least out of the three of them. But always, always, I would say 95% of the time at the end of this deal, people look back and say, oh, boy, that's a great. great deal for the networks. And so the numbers end up looking a lot better. NBC came in and paid a ton to move Turner out and TNT out. So that's one that people point to, but I kind of hesitate.

It's too early to say whether they overpaid or not. Like I said, everybody wants me to write the story every time there's a right deal about how somebody overpaid. And I always hesitate because Let's wait for another five, six years, and we'll have a good idea then. How did the Ernie, Shaq, Barkley, Kenny Smith, inside the NBA show do on ESPN? I think it did all right. It was more – that's one where I would focus a lot less on the viewership of that show, and more about – this is like Monday-Money-Make-Buffball bringing over, like, Joe Buck and Troy Aikman to do it. And all of a sudden it's like, oh, we have a professional booth.

For ESPN, this was a nod to the NBA to say, like, we're taking this, not only are we taking this seriously, we're investing in it, and it's going to be a really professional product with known people. And it's also a message that they wanted to tell to their advertisers, this message they wanted to sell to the viewers as well, as opposed to the previous 10 years where you never knew who was going to be on the halftime show. those half-time show segments sometimes were like 30 seconds. It was impossible to get a word in edgewise. So when I look at Inside the NBA, I'm much less concerned about the viewership than the way that the NBA will view ESPN. And ESPN, frankly, had to step up because, you know, NBC studio show needed a little work. But Amazon, I thought, had a great one, you know.

And so Amazon coming in as a new. NBA broadcaster, you know, and ESPN had to make sure that its half-time show is at least comparable or as good as a, as, as, was that the one, was that the one with Dirk on it? Neviski. I thought he was great, wasn't he? Yeah, I thought he was good, too. Yeah. Hey, I, I, you know what I'm, uh, fixated on Kevin that I'm, I'm curious about the, because,

you know, you're in the D.C. market. The, uh, Redskins commanders under Dan Snyder. were never going to win a Super Bowl ever. There was a culture involved with the commanders that made that just an impossibility. I think you also see that in Dallas now. Like Jerry Jones, you know, will always have sort of a winning team, but that's a team that just never wins in the playoffs, and it's part of, you know, the culture of that team.

The Knicks had that same culture under goal. Yeah, I know. And somehow, like, and it's not a matter of Dolan figuring out, like, oh, I'm going to step away and look away. Somehow, he was able to change a culture of that team, and was it Brunton that changed it? Was it, you know, was it Leon Rose coming in, who changed it, or what was it? I had actually Brian Winfors on my pod, and he, love him. He suggested, he's great, by the way. But he suggested that Dolan made a couple of really bold moves that,

Herclidou would have blown up in his face, but this time they didn't. Like, it was Dolan's decision to fire Thibodeau. Like, you know, a playoff winning coach, and Leon Rose didn't really want to do it. Could have blown up in his face, but it didn't. They got Mike Brown, and we see what happened. I think that Dolan also, you know, put the brakes on getting honest to come to New York. and trading for Yannas, you know, sort of a bright, shiny star player. But just the idea that there's a franchise that can get out of that, you know,

tragic story arc is that that's one of the most amazing parts of these NBA finals to me. I comped for many years, Dolan and Dan Snyder, and the state of the New York Knicks fan base ended being, you know, similar to what we had gone through for all of those years. And here's the thing, too. It's harder to win a title in the NBA than it is in the NFL. You know, so, yes, I'm surprised by that as well. All right, so World Cup, tell me, you know, how it's doing from a television standpoint in the U.S.

Oh, great. I mean, as good as everybody would have expected. The World Cup, and you're going to see this, too, Kevin, before the Olympics. before the first kick, before the opening kickoff of the World Cup, you have reporters that can't report on games yet. And so what are they report on, they report on, you know, the ticket prices, or they report on the problems of getting out to the stadium, or they report on how this World Cup is not,

the United States, Canada, Mexico, are not ready to host a World Cup. and then the games start and the focus is on the field, and you see these PAC stadiums, even with the ticket prices, as high as they are, the PAC stadiums filled with, you know, foreign fans and everybody singing and joyful, and it's coming through on the TV ratings.

You're going to see the same thing, L.A. 28, L.A. is not going to be ready. Transportation is going to be too hard. The traffic is going to get choked up, and people aren't going to be late in the, the torch is going to be lit, and everything's going to be fine. So my advice to people, when it comes to the World Cup, is sit back and enjoy because the ratings for this, you know, they expanded the World Cup this year.

People were wondering about some of these early round games, you know, whether they would be, you know, getting thousands of viewers or millions of viewers, and they're getting a ton of viewers. And it's been very good for Fox. it's been very good for Telemundo, and it's just going to get better. The World Cup, I mean, every four years, and it's been a really big, good event every four years, regardless of where it is. I mean, it was in Russia. I was in Qatar, for goodness sakes. I think the U.S. can handle it.

I feel like the take that I've had on the World Cup and on soccer in particular is like the default for the typical American sports fan, this. I hate soccer, but I really kind of like the World Cup. That's how I felt all along, and I've watched this thing like the last three or four, and I enjoy it. And I don't like soccer, and you couldn't pay me to watch an MLS game during the course of the year. But there's something about the World Cup and the importance that it has to the rest of the world and the pageantry of it. It's kind of fun to watch. I've been watching a lot of it. And the play on the field is so good as well.

No, let's not go crazy. Let's not go nuts. I can't identify that. I can identify a messy, all right, and I watched that the other night, and I talked about it, but for the most part, I'm not exactly sure what's going on half the time. I know that the flopping thing is still just impossible to watch as an American sports fan. come on, we just talked about the NBA. I know that, but at least, you know what?

It's bad there, too, but the rolling around on the field for minutes at a time, and when you see the replay, there's literally no contact, that's just too much for me. But it is entertaining. I mean, I've told my listeners this. I am going, John, to the World Cup final on July 19th. That's kidding me. Wow. Impressive.

My brother is, he's lived in Costa Rica for a long time. He's a big soccer guy. He's bringing his son. He had a third ticket, and he is like, you'll go, right? I know you don't like soccer, but you'll go to the World Cup final. I'm like, of course I will. You'll never forget that. Yeah.

I wish you would like soccer more because we would have a fun thing. We talked about inside the NBA. Yeah. This Fox studio show, true soccer fans, they have Alexie Lollas on. there was a very polarizing. Oh, I can't stand him. I cannot stand him. Why, is he polarizing?

That he's people either love them or hate him. Okay. They have a Keri on Rees, sort of the, you know, yeah. And, uh, Lotton, I never know how to pronounce his name. They get together. They make fun of Alexi. Lexi gives it back.

And it's, it's really, rollicking, all right. It's this rollicking pregame show that true soccer fan. hate because they want people talking about like, oh, look at, look at that path. He's got his foot, you know, the curve to just the right way. And they just kind of, they're not quite hot takes, but it's like an inside of the NBA type of thing to me. And they just go out each other.

And I would suggest that you watch it. It's kind of fun. Well, you know what I've noticed? Actually, my wife and I were watching it the other night. And, you know, we caught it from the pregame. And then immediately they go to halftime. Like once you get to whatever the time is, because it's completely random and not very precise. Another thing that I hate about the game.

But it seems to me that every single lead host on FS1 and on Fox for these studio shows is female. I know where there's, it's female. Oh, I thought you were going to say they're English. Well, they are English. I like the one with the French guy Tiri, Henri and the other guy She's very good. She's very good. Yeah.

Yeah. But you know what? Lallis is the guy that just drives me nuts and he's driven me nuts in previous years. But, you know, I think every hockey announcer is great. I've come to the conclusion over the years that in sports that I don't know anything about, I tend to really like the announcers and analysts.

and it's probably because I don't know if they're giving me really good analysis. But I do really like that Rebecca Lowe. I think she does a great job. No, Rebecca Lowe is fantastic. And she does a Premier League for Peacock and NBC and is known as probably one of the best one of, if not the best soccer house in the country. Can I ask you a question? I don't know the answer to this.

In this World Cup with 48 teams, how many MLS players are in it? I know Messi is, but how many MLS players are actually in the World Cup? Do you know? I don't know off the top of my head. I know that MLS has put that number out, and I think that you would be surprised that there are quite a few. Okay. And one of the things about MLS is, I know you're not a big fan

and you say you don't want to watch it. They're getting ready to do. It only launched back in 96 or 20 years old now, which is very young in terms of a league. And they're ready to do what they call MLS 3.0. And they're going to open the books. And, you know, MLS right now is probably a top 10 soccer league in the world. Top 10.

Yeah. I mean. Right around there. But if they open the checkbooks and bring in some really good player, they can vault into the top five. And if it becomes the top five, it's going to become a much, a much, easier games for Americans. I think it has a potential to become a lot more popular, especially after a full of watching the World Cup in all these huge American markets.

I learned something about John today. John is a soccer guy. He's into soccer. I'm a good actor. I play a soccer guy in my newsbutter. Let's wrap this up with a couple quickies. Number one is this. What's the WNBA doing ratings-wise? Has the Caitlin Clark effect, you know, sort of been washed out at this point or not? And WMBA is still doing very well. It's hard to talk about ratings, Kevin, just because like, Nielsen made all these changes. So everybody is having their best season since the late 90s or the 90s. But the NBA and the WNBA and the networks that have the WNB, They're very happy with Caitlin Clark.

They're very happy with Paige Beckett in Dallas right now as well. And they're in the process of building some big-name stars. And even though you probably don't talk about the WMBA a ton on your show, the numbers are doing not great, but certainly not terrible. All right. Last one. I'm pretty sure I've not had you on either the radio show or the podcast since the NFL schedule came out. I think we've talked about it off the air.

But give me and all of my listeners your big takeaways from the NFL schedule that came out last month. Okay, number one takeaway, this, what I call the Blackout Wednesday game, the Wednesday before Thanksgiving is going to be massive. it is going to get huge numbers, and it's going to be on Netflix and just kind of wait, because when that happens, I think the viewership numbers for that are really going to make your jaw drop. Other than the actual schedule that came out, one other thing that that really fascinated me, and this happened just before schedule, really, Netflix getting five games, those games are going to go to YouTube.

Yeah. Somehow Netflix came in and got them, and I think of YouTube, you know, having a Sunday ticket on YouTube TV and YouTube as well, YouTube channels, not being part of the NFL schedule this season, was really one of the biggest surprises to come out of... Wait, explain that. I'm sorry.

I'm not following that. I thought I was at the beginning, but you lost me there. So the Netflix games will be available on YouTube if you have the Sunday ticket? You know what? I don't think that Sunday ticket has Netflix games. I think they're going to be with Netflix. I was saying YouTube has Sunday ticket. You know, so they're not out of the NFL entirely.

But YouTube was bidding on those five games, which included opening game in Australia. It included that Wednesday game before Thanksgiving. and everybody thought, myself included, that those games were going to go to YouTube, but at the last minute, Netflix came in, took those right, and YouTube was left without any regular season games coming up. They only had one last year, the opening game in Brazil with Mahomes. But that to me was a really big deal that really I haven't been paying enough attention to. Interesting, your thought on the Wednesday night Thanksgiving, pre- Thanksgiving game.

It's Green Bay and the Rams, by the way. I don't doubt that you're going to be right about it, but I don't love that they're playing on that night. That's always been a huge family and friends night, and a big night out if you're in your teens, 20s, even 30s. But you're right, man, when everybody's gathered together around the holidays, football reigns supreme. It's going to be family friends with a TV on, and everybody's going to be counted. It's going to be teenagers. Guys coming back from college in bars, and they're going to be counted as well.

The number coming out of this is going to be really, really big. Thanks for doing this, as always. Enjoy U.S. in Australia today. I'm going to be into it. I bet it'll do a massive number. I'm sure it will. Oh, I can't wait. It'll be fun.

John Orand, everybody. at O-U-R-A-N-D- underscore puck. It's definitely something. If you're interested in sports business and sports media, John is a must follow. All right, that'll do it for today. Have a great weekend. I'll be back on Monday.