The Kevin Sheehan Show - Wilbon On Wild NBA Weekend

Episode Date: July 8, 2019

Kevin opened with the Women's World Cup win. Mike Wilbon called in next to discuss Kawhi Leonard's move with Paul George to the Clippers and the rest of the wild weekend in the NBA. The show finished up with Todd Dybas/NBC Sports Washington joining Kevin to discuss the red hot Nats. <p> </p><p>Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a></p> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You want it. You need it. It's what everyone's talking about. The Kevin Sheehan Show. Now here's Kevin. All right, I am here. Aaron is here. This show is presented by Window Nation. If you're in the market for Windows, call 86690 Nation or go to Windonation.com and tell them that we told you to call. We decided, by the way, and actually, we didn't decide. I decided at the last minute that we were not going to do a show on Friday. It was the day after the fourth. Many of you were off of work or out of town. and it was a quiet period for sports. And I don't know. I guess I just decided Friday morning right here, and I texted you and I said, you know what?

We don't need to do a show today. Yep. And that's the great thing about a podcast is we didn't have to do a show. We've been consistent since we started Monday through Friday pretty much. But for those of you that were planning on it, sorry about that.

We just decided we weren't going to do a show on Friday. And I went out and played golf instead. We're back today. By the way, Tony Kornhizer, used the studio this morning for the podcast. And since he and the crew left, Nigel and Michael and the whole group left, we've been having nothing but problems with the studio since they left. But we finally got it up and running.

But he would complain like hell if I had used his studio and left it the way they left ours. Actually, they didn't leave it in bad condition, but something wasn't right here as we started. But Tony, you're invited back whenever to use the studio. We had fun actually this morning. For those of you, by the way, who have said, is your podcast over since Tony closed the restaurant? No, it isn't. We haven't used that studio since October.

Yeah. Something like that. It was a great studio, great spot to launch the podcast from, but we wanted to start earlier, and we had to wait for Tony to finish, so we went and got our own studio. Mike Wilbon's on the show today. We're going to talk all about what happened since the last time we did a show, which was last Wednesday, and that is everything NBA related. Kauai Leonard to the Clippers with an amazing trade. Paul George goes from OKC to the Clippers for as many draft choices as I can ever remember,

probably only the Herschel Walker trade in terms of total number of choices exceeded that. But Mike will join us here shortly. Todd Dybis will join us as well. Todd's, I always enjoy my conversations with Todd over the years, whether he was covering the Wizards or the Nibus or the Nibis or the Nibis. Nats. He's covering the Nats now. We'll talk about the Nationals run here before the All-Star break in their position now as the number one wildcard team in the National League. We'll talk with him a little bit later on in the show as well. I did watch the World Cup final yesterday,

and I enjoyed it. You know, for those of you that were super upset with what you perceived to be condescending discussion and remarks about soccer and women's soccer in particular, I would answer by saying very little of it wasn't tongue placed firmly in cheek. Most of you get that. Tommy and I love to get some of you riled up on soccer. Now, some of it we really are being truthful about, but a lot of you take the bait almost every time. It's awesome when you do. With that said, I was serious last week, Aaron, when I said that in watching the game against England,

that I personally, and I'm not an expert on soccer, I don't understand really the beauty of the game like many of you do, but I said that there isn't that much difference watching on television between the women and men like I see when I watch, say, basketball. I think there's a significant difference in the game, and the experts out there responded to me directly on Twitter explaining that the difference is as significant in soccer as it is in basketball.

So I stand corrected, and I didn't say that with any sort of, you know, a real understanding or conclusiveness. I offered up that I would be, that I potentially was way off on that. Many of you who really know soccer said that there is a significant athletic skill, et cetera, difference between the men's and women's game.

I'm just saying when you're watching soccer on television, I can't as a, you know, casual observer of the sport, tell like I can in basketball. But I'll defer to all of you experts on that. Four things from the game yesterday. Four things I wanted to get to. One, boy, the concussion protocol in women's soccer, is there one, actually? Apparently not. Because the two girls, the two women that collided head, you know, it was, you could see it on replay.

It was head and head, and neither moved on the ground for maybe 20 seconds. There was no movement. And they left the game, I think, for a total of 30 to 60 seconds, and then came right back into the game. And they just stood on the sideline. Now, maybe all of the concussion testing was done while they were on the ground. Now, the American player didn't come back after halftime because she showed concussion-like symptoms at halftime and didn't come back for the second half. But she did come back in at the end of the first half.

I thought that was very interesting. I mean, you put those two concussion, you know, handling side by side, the NFL and women's World Cup soccer, and they're handled much differently. The second observation is I thought that the penalty that they called on the Dutch that led to the penalty kick that Megan Rapino scored on to give the U.S. say one-nothing lead. It was a high kick in the direction of Alex Morgan. I don't know anything,

but if that's a penalty, it shouldn't be. It didn't appear to be anything that was intentional. Like she was trying to reach her leg towards the direction of the ball, didn't get it there, and it hit Alex Morgan up high in the shoulder area, but it wasn't even that violent of a of contact. and it wasn't called on the field. It went to replay, and they came back with the penalty, and it was a significant one because it led to the penalty kick in the box, which I'm going to guess I have no idea if I'm right or not, I'm going to guess is a much better than 50-50 probability on scoring on that penalty kick.

I think I could score on that penalty kick. I don't know about that, but definitely better than 50-50 chance. And from what I got from the soccer people is that by the letter of the law, absolutely was the right call that, you know, you kick high, you miss, and you hit someone like that, that is a call, but it was a little bit of a soft one. Okay, well, then I would also put it in context in which I believe the game, and I was watching this game, was a game, and I'll use the, you know, the NFL NBA description, a game in which the referees were letting them play.

Yes. A lot wasn't called that looked a lot worse than that. So, and it wasn't called, but it went to. the replay and they came back with the penalty kick. Now the U.S. did get, they ended up getting another goal by the very young player who's, you know, a growing superstar. I'm sorry? Rose. Oh, I thought it was Lavelle or something like that. Or Rose Lavelle? But I know she's young. Yes, Rose Lavelle. Okay, thank you. I didn't know what her first name was. I knew what the last name was. And you knew what the first name was, but I just didn't think that that was a penalty. In the same way that

I didn't think England's goal that got nullified by the off-sides. I thought that that was really, you know, before replay, that would have never been called. Anyway, the third point that I wanted to make, and again, this is casual observer. Unlike the England game and the game against France, which I watched the last, I don't know, 15 minutes of, the U.S. appeared to be the much better team throughout this game. You know, so if it had gone to zero-zero and extra time or overtime or whatever they call it and then the penalty kicks it would have been you know like the hockey game where the goaltender stood on his head you know i just thought that the u.s women appeared to be the much better team throughout and then the fourth point on this world cup is this

the complaint about equal pay with men now i i went back and read a little bit about this i guess that the you know the women have been asking for substantially you know equal pay for equal work. They want equal, you know, playing, training, travel conditions, promotion to their games, support and development for their games, et cetera, as the men do. And during the celebrations post-World Cup victory yesterday, the crowd in France, started chanting equal pay. This is something that the U.S. women in particular have been asking for a while. Now, I don't know anything about the other countries and how the Dutch women compare to the Dutch men in terms of attention or the English women and the English men's World Cup team. In this particular country, the U.S. women should get equal pay, if not more than the men, or equal support, if not more support than the U.S. men do.

Again, I don't know about the other participating countries, but the U.S. women's team. outdraw the men by a lot. Many more people were watching that game yesterday. The game against Japan in the 2015 final, I think, is still the most watched soccer match or soccer game in the history of this country. So I haven't seen the ratings for yesterday. They're not out as we're recording this. I have not seen them yet.

But the women are much more visible. They're much more known. They are much more popular culture icons than any of the men's players. I believe that to be true. I know that they outdraw the men by a lot, like it's not close. So they should get, I think they should get more support financially and otherwise. Anyway, I enjoyed the final. I've said this before.

As much as we tend to tongue, you know, place firmly in cheek, make fun of soccer, and a lot of the time some of it is, you know, not necessarily tongue in cheek. It's the way, you know, I feel or Tommy feels. It's not a sport that, you know, is popular in this country. We understand where it's place is in this country. But I enjoy the World Cup. I've enjoyed the Men's World Cup for many years now. I think it is a spectacle of an event, and I totally appreciate the athletes.

athleticism, the skill level, et cetera, of the players in this sport. I do not agree that it is a game that has much more action than an NFL game, you know, or an NBA game. Soccer people like to tell you it's continuous. And it is in that the clock never stops and there isn't stoppage of play, et cetera, and there aren't timeouts, all that stuff. But there's a lot of standing around. You know, there's a lot of, you know, kicking it backwards and a lot of what I would describe is non-action. So when people tell you, you know, it's continuous and an NFL game has, you know, whatever the math adds up to, 12 minutes of actual action, I don't know, what happens in those 12 minutes is, in my opinion, exceeds what you see in a 90-minute soccer game or 90 minutes plus whatever. It ends up being 90 minutes.

And, of course, the lack of precise timing in that game is, is a completely mystifying to me. I don't understand it. I've never understood it. I don't know why they don't have a clock that rolls backwards, and you know exactly how much time is left in the game. You never know how much time exactly as you're watching it. We're playing it for that matter.

You really don't know exactly when the game will end. That is determined by the referee, and it appears to be arbitrary from my standpoint. By the way, the best sporting event of the weekend was not the Women's World Cup, but it was 15-year-old Cocoa Gough's comeback win in the third round of Wimbledon on Saturday. To advance to the fourth round, I think she becomes the youngest player to advance that far since Capriotti did it, I think. And she's playing right now in Wimbledon's fourth round against Halep. And Halep's a favorite to end her run there.

But she was down a set and five, two, and multiple match points and came back. and she's going to be quite the player and quite, you talk about going from no name to superstar in a matter of less than a week. You don't have to be a sports fan to have seen the coverage of Cocoa Goths comeback win in her run at Wimbled and she beat Venus Williams to start.

And I watched that match and I thought it was very exciting on Saturday. Michael Wilbon coming up, quick word on Window Nation first. Window Nation is, for many of you know, it's personal for me because I've known Window Nation for over a decade. They've installed Windows in my home twice over the last 10 years. Several people I know personally and many, many of you who have listened to the radio show or the podcast have used Windonation. And I've said this before, but it's true. I've not once, not once in the over 10 years that I've endorsed Windonation.

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of experience. I've trusted them into my home and I promise you that you can do so as well. Now right now they've got a great deal going. Buy one window, get one free with no limit. Plus, no down payment, no interest and no payments for the first 12 months. Call 86690 Nation or go to window nation.com. That's 86690 Nation and tell them that I told you to call. All right. Let's bring in Mike Wilbon, who was on with Tony this morning, but, you know, when I texted Mike last night, I didn't know that he was going to be on with Tony. And I was on with Tony this morning, but you said you'd do it anyway, which I really appreciate because I, when I thought about what happened at the end of last week and into the weekend, you were the

person that I wanted to talk to about it, because I know that you've talked to all of the significant players, you know, from coaches to front office people to players themselves. And I just think it was, it was such a shocking turn of events. Not that Kauai ended up with the Clippers, Mike, but the Paul George trade, which I don't know that anybody even rumored it or, you know, threw out a possibility of Paul George to the Clippers. How did it all come together? Well, it starts with Kauai Leonard, Kevin, calling Paul George and saying, is there any chance we want to play together? The one thing I don't know, and I have talked to pretty much all the principles around this circle, the one thing I don't know is whether Kauai knew that perhaps Paul George was unhappy a little bit,

and like everybody who plays with Russell Westbrook was just sort of tired of it. I don't know whether he knew that. but it wasn't just the clippers pursuing this trade for paul george so was toronto but remember the clippers had assets they started building them back in the winter when they traded to bias harris yeah and they so they had all these draft picks Toronto didn't have that because they were just trying to keep him based on look what we got right here look what you just did look what we've been able to do with you and so So it really didn't even come down to which city as much, and that's what we all thought.

And this is why we all – I kept saying that every day, Kevin, no one knows what Kaua Leonard is thinking. Because the city, of course, put Southern California in it anyway. But he could have done this with Toronto. If Toronto had been able to do this deal, he could very well still have been there with Paul George. you know there's a lot about this that i want to get to but i don't want to forget this one thought because i read it i think yesterday i think zach low wrote about it on esPN dot com and that is that kawai leonard's first call was to kevin durant to try to get kevin durant to go with him to the clippers and one of the one of the quotes in there and i'm paraphrasing at this point because i don't

have it up in front of me is that kevin durant essentially said that you know there wasn't a significant relationship between he and Kauai Leonard, but the story indicated that Kauai Leonard was quite the one-on-one salesman in trying to convince Durant first. Is that correct, that Durant was the first player that he reached out to to try to join him, and then it became Paul George. Well, it was certainly Durant before Paul George. Now, I'm not aware as to whether there was another player before Durant. I had not asked about that in all these various conversations.

But Durant was certainly before Paul George. Now, Kevin, I wouldn't call it a significant relationship either with Paul George. They grew up in Southern California at the same time, were aware of each other, played against each other in college, knew each other from going against one another, from being opponents, not from being buddies. and that's interesting and here's where else to place Kevin those guys want to be

coached so Kauai wasn't looking at the Lakers with some great you know envy of I want to be with them because wanting to be coached I don't know that that's certainly not LeBron's thing

and I don't know that it's Anthony Davis's thing either but it is Paul George's thing and it is Kauai Leonard's Interesting. And this is why they look at that roster and they see Doc Rivers, and that becomes even more attractive to them. And so the Lakers were not as attractive to them, I'm told. And they also like Toronto because Kauai Leonard really did like Nick Nurse.

You know what, Nick Nurse, other than the two inexplicable back-to-back timeouts he called in game 5 when they were on an unbelievable role and should have put Golden State away that particular night. I thought he did a great job. Now, personally, I think Dwayne Casey with Kauai Leonard would have had the same result. That's just me because I think Casey's a good coach too. But it's an interesting comment that you make, and it's one of the reasons I think I love Kauai Leonard so much, is that he is coachable, wants to be coached.

Yet, Mike, the thing that I never thought he would, work on by himself, and that is putting together, you know, a combination of him and another superstar. He did that. He did that. Well, because he sees that here's what, I mean, look, it becomes necessity, Kevin. Well, he could have what he was happening in L.A., but he didn't want to join it. Joining that wasn't his thing.

You know, and again, and Toronto, he very well could have stayed there. If they had assets and they don't, or if they had given up everything, if they'd given up everything to get Paul George, they wouldn't even have, they wouldn't have the team that the Clippers now have, by the way. Right. But, yeah, but he sees what the Lakers are doing. He sees what Brooklyn is doing. He knows he wants to win again.

That's what matters to him. How's he going to win? How's he going to win wherever he is? Whether it's Toronto or the Clippers, he's got to play with another star player now. The only thing I would say to you is I do think had he stayed in Toronto with no Paul George deal. I think one of the underrated things about what we saw in the postseason, Kauai Leonard's run was historic in so many ways. But that was a good team around him. They had good players.

That was a good team that could have contended again next year. It would have contended, but he also knows that they needed a bounce, one of the great bounces in NBA history, to beat. Philly in game seven, and Philly sort of retooled. And I'm going to tell you something, Kevin. A lot of people think, well, they let Jimmy Butler go and they let JJ Reddick go and they're not going to be as good. Players believe that Philadelphia is better. I see Vegas is too because I just saw where Vegas has Philadelphia winning 60 games next year and be the only team in the league to do that.

But I think they all look at that and think that even Toronto had to get better. And how could they do that? Now, I believe Toronto could have gotten better, marginally better, and how much better do you need to be when you win a championship, which is your point. But you look at what's brewing as you get all these tag teams. And it's like, wow, you know, even a guy like Hawaiian leader believes, okay, I got to have more.

There's got to be more for me to take those guys down. Those guys right now starts with the Lakers. it starts, first of all, it really, to me it starts with the Clippers. I think the Clippers are better than the Lakers. I think the Clippers roster is better. I think that Paul George and Kauai Leonard defensively are the best tandem than Michael Jordan and Scotty Pippin. And then you throw in Beverly, the three of them is defenders.

That's right. Yeah, it's, I mean, there's so many, you know, so many things that happen because of this happened because this happened. And I want to get to it, including your thought about Philadelphia, the players that feel that way about Philadelphia. But just one last question specific to George to L.A. with Kauai. Was Toronto close? It sounded from the people I talked to, and again, it's people who are directly involved, that Toronto was close. I don't know if it was razor close. I don't know if in the final analysis, Kauai had to just sit for two hours in a dark room and think about it. Now, what I would say probably wasn't close.

When you look at the hall that Oklahoma City got, I don't think, none of them looks at that and thinks Ronald could have produced that. Right. And they have had to have given up their best player, their most improved player in the league, and then who would Kauai have with running with him other than Paul George? I mean, you wonder just sort of what would have been left of what Skeleton would have been left of Toronto. But I was told that it was close in terms of Toronto trying to make that deal. And Toronto was never out of it.

The Lakers were out of it. Toronto was not. The hall that they got was Herschel Walker-esque, you know, the Cowboys Vikings deal from many years ago. Even more so. The fact that it's five first round. rounders plus the two players, Shea Gilgis Alexander, who by the way, I think is a budding star. And then the ability to swap for better first rounders, too. It's really an unbelievable job that Sam Presti did. You said it, and I didn't know this, and I don't know that. I mean, I'm an

NBA fan, as you know, and I did not realize that Paul George was unhappy in OKC. In fact, I thought the combination of George in Westbrook was one of the more comfortable. combinations for Westbrook that I've watched. It was. It was, but was it comfortable for Paul George. So apparently it wasn't. Apparently not, Kevin. I never know. I did not hear the word unhappy, but I did hear that Paul George, look, everybody at some point who plays with Westbrook comes to a realization, sooner or later, and with Paul George, it was sooner. And the realization is,

wow, this guy's great, but I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do And what Presti realized, and by the way, who has more faith in himself to make those draft picks work in today's NBA than Presti? And the answer is nobody. And look, he's going to have to really strike big to build a team again that way in Oklahoma City where they're not going to get, you know, free agents. They got one, you know, with Paul George got in there, the same briefly. Yeah, but the Westbrook part of it, man. It's, you know, because Kevin, the next, as we spin this forward, you know, Paul, Russell Westbrook is not going to be a member of Oklahoma.

All right, so that's where I wanted to go next. So what do you think happens? Because one of the first things I thought about was, boy, maybe this is an opportunity for the Wizards to deal Beal to OKC for some of those picks. Not, um, but you think Westbrook is going. of it that way. I thought, well, look, Presti's so good with the picks that I'm not going to rule out something like that, but I don't think he got them to do it that way to build it, to rebuild it very quickly around Westbrook. Right. I don't think that's the first thought. Now, again, Kevin,

Presti's so good that way, maybe it could happen. I started wondering about the, I started wondering about the Wizards potentially being able to get Russell Westbro. There's that too. Because then you, so for Oklahoma City, that might have some attraction because John Wall's not going to play this season. If he does, it'd be at the end, it wouldn't matter. And that helps them tank and lose and start over. It helps the process of bottoming out.

But I don't know if the Wizards would take on Russell Westbrook. Why would Westbrook want to go to the Wizards? he knows he can't contend here cannot cannot contend here the wizards have it's amazing to me Kevin and I know I know we don't want to necessarily get too much

new wizards right now yeah but but so when I found out that the bulls were on the verge and it hadn't happened yet the bulls were going to get Satteransky because they were asking about them I was like nah the Wizards are going to let Satteransky go

not not for 30 million dollars They're not going to let him go. And it was like, wow, the Bulls are overjoyed at getting Satiransky to actually start at point guard and play alongside Zach Levine because they have drafted Kobe White. And now he doesn't have the pressure of having to come into the NBA and start day one. But I'm like, why did the Wizards let Satteransky go? Okay, that means the Wizards must want to bottom out. and I mean bottom out. I mean, be one of the two or three worst teams in the NBA.

But I think if they really wanted to bottom out, they'd be looking to trade Biel because that's where you're going to get the most back. That's true. And I don't know. You're right. My contention over the last two weeks, or what I've said is, it's typical. I think they're small-time thinkers. You know, going back to Abe, Abe was a small-time thinker.

Ted gets a lot of credit for the hockey. team. He's a small-time thinker when it comes to this basketball team. And it just, it's frustrating. But personally, I think the big thought, thinking big would be to trade Beale and start collecting. He's the most marketable asset. You have walls untradable because of the injury in the supermax deal. The word untradable is totally fair, and we all believe that. But apparently, Kevin, one of the things that was out there, and again, the Wizards have become so irrelevant, that even you know, sort of

encamped, I mean, in this environment for, in my case, 48 hours, where you have access to talk to everyone about everything and people are very willing. I didn't even ask about the wizards. They're so irrelevant.

I didn't. I didn't ask. Now, I did hear, and I don't know because I didn't follow it up. I did hear that Miami was interested in Wall and Beal. Yeah, I read that last. What was that made? Yeah, there was a story, and I can't even remember I read it that Miami might be interested in Wall and Beal.

And look, you know, Butler and Beal together would be interesting. By the way, just so I don't lose this thought. I know people are positive about Philadelphia's roster, but to me, watching them in the postseason, which is when you really do learn about what you have in those games, without Jimmy Butler, that series would have been over in four or five games against Toronto. Well, that toughness is what you worry about the Sixers. Right. A scorer, a go-to guy.

It's not just his toughness with the opposition. How about his toughness with Embed and Simmons? Because as we know, Jimmy Butler's unafraid. And people get so squeamish now. They've got squeamish in a couple of cities about Butler and young players. I think that's necessary. They're coddled. already, they don't get coached hard in college for the most part.

If they do, it's a year max, if they do. Embed was with Bill's self. But Simmons wasn't, and Jimmy Butler was able to... I was there one night in Philadelphia in that series, in the series of Brooklyn. Kevin, when Jimmy Butler just said, I got to stay with Embedle's, look at him B. He said, I got to stay with him and make sure they just,

certain things don't happen. And this is a big, brothering that the Sixers now don't have. How much is that loss in addition to shot making, in addition to defending the general overall toughness of the Sixers? Is Simmons have that? Does the Speed have that? I just don't know who you go to to get a big bucket late in the playoff game.

Well, you're going to have to go to Embed. And I know that's different. That's an old-fashioned way of thinking that you even go to a big man, because that's not what the NBA is about now. Josh Richardson, what do we think of him? How good is he going to be now that he's not in a place where he was irrelevant? And Tobias Harris, I mean, they're paying him $100 and whatever million to be a guy who can take that last shot. Again, I'm with you about Jimmy Butler's defection.

He's a badass. Yes, he is. He just is. But, you know, but Kevin, there's some people who appreciate Butler more than others, And others who say, oh, they're going to be better without him. I'm skeptical of that. All right, back to Westbrook. So you're convinced he's going to be moved.

Where is he going to be moved to? Well, the early two teams in the discussions who've acknowledged almost at their discussion, discussing this, are Miami. And I'd be shocked if he, I mean, to me, there's a few people who are more, who are less Pat Riley guys than Russell Westbrook. but Miami said to be involved in this, and so is, brace yourself, Oklahoma City. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Houston, the Houston Rockets. And I'm thinking, with Hardin together. Yes. Look, one thing I thought Westbrook did, and I don't know, I've just been wrong about him over the years.

He's been one of my favorite players to watch. I don't think I've ever seen a player try harder than Russell Westbrook tries, but that's beyond it. He hasn't been able to get it done. They had a 3-1 lead against Golden State, and it was Durant, by the way, who went 10 for 31 in a close-out game at home in game 6. But Westbrook, to me, with George this year,

actually did, in big spots, defer. Now only that, I thought Russell Westbrook had actually changed fundamentally. his willingness to involve, and particularly the young teammates, like Grant. I mean, I remember saying to a couple different coaches in cities that I was in to cover games, Westbrook looks fundamentally different to me. And they said, yeah, he is. It's no longer a pass-as-larser situation.

He has, you know, I don't know that he's become a big brother to anybody, but he certainly was a much more willing and creative playmaker. So maybe that is the sort of calling card of now this last third of Russell Westbro's career, this final like four years or whatever. Maybe he could play with Hardin, who he once played with anyway. That would be fascinating. Hardin was such a different player then. Of course.

Hardin wasn't even the James Hardin, we know. He was coming off the bench. So that is out there. That was out there immediately. and the other thing is the Miami Heat certainly have interest in Chris Paul. So who can make a three-way deal? What can be made to happen to get Russell Westbrook and to get him out of Oklahoma City? I'll tell you what, if he doesn't get traded without a second, you know, really good player,

although, again, I think Shay Gilgis Alexander is going to be a star in the league. But they're playing the same position. Yeah, exactly. they're playing the same position, and he's only, what, 20 years old, maybe? 20 years old, yeah. So it's going to take time. But if he were to stay in Oklahoma City, he will easily average a triple double next year, and he will probably take an average of 30 shots a game.

Yeah, he would. And, you know, it's funny because Tony called me at one point this weekend, just in, you know, in the typical fascinating Tony bewilderment way, to say, what the hell is this? And Tony says, he makes an observation, which I think is really important. And Tony says, isn't Russell Westbrook of a guy at this stage who can only play with unknown players, unaccomplished guys who he can set up and make because that's the way he has to play? And I said, Tony, maybe he is best that way, but that's not going to help him contend in today's day.

No, not in the West. I mean, there are too many good teams. Look at the West. Okay, so right now, where would you have Oklahoma City in the West, Kevin? Well, I haven't thought about it. They're in this seven to ten range. I was going to say more like 8, 9, 10. To me, they're behind Dallas.

Well, of course, because, I mean, the hope of Donchich and what they put, what they're putting together there, I mean, hell, I think Phoenix is going to be so much improved next year. Yeah, I mean, it would be so much better as well. And Memphis, you know, I don't know how many years away we are from, you know, them being significant and being a contender. But I don't know. I mean, I was shocked that they got, you know, that they were out so quickly against Portland, but they were also banged up a little bit in that series this year.

But yeah, I mean, they're not a contender. They wouldn't be a contender in the East. No, they probably wouldn't. Not in the top five anyway. And in the West, it's just so much. My top four in the West right now, and the rosters are not finished. But my top four in the West right now would be Utah, Denver, Clippers, Lakers. The Clippers and the Lakers do have some assembly.

Are you talking about regular season wins or Western Conference champions? No, no, no, regular season wins. Okay, yeah, that may be true, but to me the Clippers are now the favorite to get to the NBA Finals and winning. In the postseason, I'd take them. Yep. I would take them. And so Oklahoma, so this is what Sam Presti is looking at when all of our questions initially late Friday night were, what the hell is Oklahoma City doing? Well, he's assessing and recognizing how difficult is going to be to simply be on the map in the West.

Just be alive. He's behind Golden State. He's behind Dallas. He's behind the four teams we just mentioned. And that's, I didn't mention Portland. That would put him eighth at best. Well, you didn't mention San Antonio either. And I mentioned San Antonio.

So Oklahoma City basically threw up both hands and said we had to start over. By the way, are you a believer that Golden State isn't a playoff team next year? No, I'm not. Me neither. And particularly not. And I love Bobby Marks. I think he's really good at his job, and I've had him on the podcast. He's the one that said it last week.

Golden State's not only going to be a playoff team, but if Clay Thompson is back and healthy, you know, then they're going to be a very tough out in a postseason best of seven. Yeah, I think when you look at the acquisition of DeAngelo Russell, and you put Russell out there with not just Steph Curry and Draymond Green, but with Clay Thompson. And by the way, another thing I did was told directly this weekend, Kevin, was that there's, you know, there are reports out there continuing that DeAngelo Russell would be part of some further terms.

trade. No. No. I was told directly by multiple parties involved in this deal and involved with him that he is in Golden State because they loved him. And they think he's a great fit with Curry and Thompson and Draymond Green. So now you're back to four All-Stars again for Golden State. That's right. So yes, I'm with you that, you know, I don't have any belief in Curry. I mean, I'm sorry, in Thompson coming back in full in February, but if he does, look, it's a red shirt year for Golden State. They could tinker. By the way, another great acquisition. Willie Collie Stein.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Willie Collie Stein is the active embodiment. He's like, you know what he's going to be for them under the influence and practice every day of Draymond Green, Steve Kerr. He's going to be a larger young, Willie, uh, Draymond Green. Well, look at the way Louie's developed. Yes, and so... But Willie Colley-Stein, to me, it has a skill package that says, wow, he's going to blossom in Golden State.

And Sacramento, which we didn't even mention, Sacramento's better. So it all speaks to Russell Westbrook and Oklahoma City and why that whole thing is about to be G6. You know, one of the things that I saw this weekend, and it made me smile because I've always been a huge fan, and I really think he may be the smartest, highest IQ basketball player in the league over the last 10, 12 years, even beyond that, is that Rajan Rondo's back in Los Angeles with the Lakers. And, you know, all of the stuff I read, you know, late in the season about Rondo being much more of a mentor to the younger players than even LeBron was. Like, he showed up with baked cookies when he was injured, you know, before they went on a road trip, which is so. not what you think about when you think about Rondo and his, you know, his relationships with his

teammates over the years. But this guy's going to be a coach one day. And on this roster, he may be more of a coach than anybody other than LeBron. Kevin, let me tell you. So Rondo, again, having access to an entire league in a space of about 200 feet, which is what happens in the summer league, I just said to Rondo Friday night, why don't you just coach it? He starts laughing. And, Rondo, first of all, the importance here is, and first of all, there is the mentoring you're talking about. There's no question about that. But there's also the ability to push LeBron. Yeah, because he's fearless.

He's completely fearless. He pushed LeBron last year. Right. He pushes LeBron all the time. Look, you know, if he can push Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen and Paul Pierce, he doesn't give a damn about LeBron being prickly. he doesn't care. And he is going to be a coach. And it's unlike, say, Vince Carter and Paul Pearson guys who were always uncertain whether it was media or coaching.

And those guys would tell you, you know, Vince Carter, I asked on air recently, Vince Carter's another one of those guys who you think could be a really good coach. And Vince goes, no, no, I'm not doing it. There's things I don't like about having to do it. I'm going to be in media. Rondo is the guy who just sort of nods and says, yeah, yeah, this is what I'm going to do. And you can't be a player coach now so people don't have to ask about that. You can't do it.

It's against the rules I think because of cap circumvention possibilities that they fear. Believe me, I was asking Lenny Wilkins about that this weekend on a panel that I had because Lenny Wilkins was, if not the last, dear coach, certainly the last really good one. All right. And so Rondo, everything you said about Rondo is going to help the Lakers in ways that I'm sure. The question is, how is Frank Vogel's relationship going to be with Rondo? What's that going to be like when you know you've got a guy on your team who both knows the game nearly as well, if not as well, as you,

and is completely fearless with handling of players? What's that going to be like? And so I think it's all a plus, but we have to see what happens in terms of how Vogel deals with that. Here's the one thing I haven't asked you about, and that is the Brooklyn thing, and how the Durant, you know, Kyrie Irving thing came together and what you think of it. First of all, how did it come together? And then secondly, do you think it's a recipe for a future title? No, I don't.

Now, Kevin, I was told in January, I think it was January, it could be December. I was told six months ago at least by head coach in the NBA to my face before a game one night, that he thought and would perhaps be willing to bet because it was so far out that Durant and Kyrie would wind up in Brooklyn together. And at the time, I just go, what? And I said, why? And this is the reporting nature in this coach. He's the reporter of him in him.

And he said, he has simply heard from so many other players that this was going to happen. Why? Because those two talked about it. Remember when we found out that they were having dinners and all that stuff was going on? Well, they also, it wasn't like they had to, it was sourced. The source was them because they would talk about it to other players.

You know how players talk pregame? Yeah. They're standing around. They get there to the gym at 4 o'clock, and there's like the batting cage now, and they're standing there talking. and the reason, and again, the why that I just didn't understand was this. I was told this, that both of those guys thought the championships they had won were not theirs. They were not primarily responsible. Well, I mean, Kyrie Irving closed out game seven against the Warriors.

Of course he did. He was the alpha in that game. But look what he did. Then he forced himself out. I know. Okay, so he forced himself to Boston. And we didn't, I don't remember hearing the. rationale then that he didn't feel that championship was his.

He felt it was LeBron's. Again, I'm being told this is not my thinking. The two most hypersensitive to criticism and social media criticism people in the league. And Kevin thought the same thing. I'm told that the championship, he was great, he was grateful, he was appreciative, all of that. But this really belonged to Steph and Clay and Draymond. It was their team. And you know what? So I thought at the time, you know what, this rings true. It just rings true. It just seems like it's what they would actually think and tell people, but it was so far out, Kevin. It was six months out. And I'm like, so much can happen between now and then and guys can get disgruntled. They cannot be as tight as they are now, blah, blah, blah, blah,

blah, and lo and behold, it happens. It's crazy. And I don't think, I do not think there's a title in their future. I don't mean because the West is tough. I don't mean because of that. I just don't like the, I don't, I just, for one, you know what, the Knicks got savage because they didn't make a max offer to Kevin Durant. I understand why the Knicks didn't.

They're going to get Kevin Durant the Nets for two years while paying him four years max salary. because next year's a redshirt year. And the first year back after Achilles, who's been great after that? The answer is no one. So they're not going to get – they're going to get a guy who maybe is an all-star, maybe not, but he's trying to come back and find himself in that second year. Is that conducive to winning a championship? No, it isn't.

So then they get Kevin Durant at whatever he's going to be, 33 and 34, in the third and fourth seasons. I don't blame the Knicks for not offering him to Max. I don't. You know, it's interesting, and I've talked about this on the podcast last week after it all went down. I do not have any problem. In fact, I salute Brooklyn for going for it, because in the NBA, if you don't have top five players, you don't contend, period. It's the sport where you have to have one of the best five players.

We saw that clearly the best example of all time. is what happened this past season in Toronto. But at the same time, I agree with you. I don't think it will result in a championship just because of the nature of the two players and the Durant risk coming off the injury. But in Brooklyn's case, not going for it means that they have zero chance. That's why I'm critical of Ted in his approach,

you know, this analytical tech-speak, you know, business approach to, you know, being patient. The NBA rewards almost being overly aggressive, if not impulsive, versus, you know, being super patient and analytical. Mike, I said on the podcast last week, I go, Dan Snyder would be a better wizard's owner, and Ted Leonis would be a much better Redskins owner. That's a great analysis, Kevin. That's a, yeah, listen.

Snyder might succeed as an NBA. Yeah, because you can do it now. Yeah. And by the way, it's hard not to look at Balmer. Balmer's excited nature, which could be compared to early Snyder, still sort of belies a different, you know, what's underneath. But to your point, there's only one franchise that's really gotten there to be in contention and be really close on the precipice by doing it the old-fashioned build win. That's Oklahoma City. And they didn't get there all the way.

That's okay. Sam Presby did it the old-fashioned way. He did draft picks and true trades and acquisition. He did. Everybody else, look at the Clippers now. Brooklyn, yeah. It's a great example of just saying, okay, here's what we're going to do now.

Now, Sacramento, perhaps because you're not going to be a player in this, Sacramento, I think, has a shot with drafting and true trading. A shot. but they're not that they're not that close yet um and so yeah you you raise a great point ted's doing this like it's a small market like Washington's a small market like he yields a small market team and you know this is why this is why I was out of town I've been out of town the whole spring um this is why when the notion came up of getting messai ujuri it wasn't going to happen because messiah knows that the wizards don't do business that way right right and he'd have to

convince the franchise, starting with Ted, to do business a different way. Yeah, Ted would have talked him out of the one-year shot with Kauai Leonard. Exactly. They don't, he's not, that's not his personality to take those kind of gambles. And now you get guys like Maasai, Ujuri, and you get David Griffin. Look what New Orleans has done in a short time. New Orleans from scratch is light years ahead of the Wizards now. And some of that's just, by the way, David Griffin was available to hire.

Right. He was available. Hey, one more thing, and I just thought of this, because I don't know that I haven't seen anybody give a real answer on this. Is Kevin Durant super upset with Golden State? What was the, what's the takeaway from that? Did they force him back against his better judgment? That's not what I was told.

I was told it on the record, so I'll go back to a conversation I had. I think the post may still be up for me doing this. the night that they lost the championship, I asked Draymond Green about Kevin Durant's willingness to play. And Draymond Green was spectacular. His answer was just, he said there's only one other guy. It's an obscure guy that he either grew up with or played with at Michigan State. And he said there's only one other person I've ever met my life who is ready to play

and wants to play as desperately as Kevin Durant. And he named the guy. And I have the guy in the report. I don't have a notebook now because it's an obscure, obscure guy. And I don't think the guy ever played in the NBA. And he said, Kevin Durant, he said, we'd have had a bigger problem on our hands. If we, if the club had said to Kevin Durant, you cannot play. Okay.

This is from Draymond Green. He's in the room who's talking to him. And I took that answer because I started Kevin by asking Draymond Green. I said, do we all get this wrong? He said, no, no, he wanted to play the narrative. that the Warriors are at fault for this is ignorant, was the word he used, was ignorant of the facts. And so am I going to, like, think that Draymond Green is lying to me?

No, I'm not. I just thought in the moment the just the surreal Bob Myers press conference, the discussion, the Kerr discussion that it came off as almost guilt. Everybody thought that. Look at all the players who went, ex-players particularly all went crazy. Right. And my friends and colleagues, and for a while, you know, I mean, Jalen and J. Will and guys who have been in locker rooms all their lives and they understand how this happens. They've had injuries.

They know what the pressure is and the culture. I get the pressure of the culture. But again, now, this is not my opinion because my opinion, I hadn't formed one yet. I just wanted to talk to somebody who I knew knew. Right. And in this case, again, asking Draymond Green. Like my first response, Kevin, was why am I not going to take Kevin Durant at his word? Kevin Durant said he wanted to play.

Why am I not going to believe Kevin Durant? If anything, what we know over the past few years, Kevin Durant's involvement, engagement, and social media, his willingness, Kevin Durant will pick up the phone and call you and tell you, hey, that take is wrong. He will do that with reporters, with media people he knows. He did it last week with Stephen A. On the air. will do this. He is not,

Kevin, no one's going to tell Kevin Durant what to think or say. So when Kevin Durant says, I want to play, why am I not going to believe him? See, those guys, former players, they never told me why I should think Kevin Durant was covering for somebody. And so, by, and to me,

asking Draymond Green, so I went to him and my question was, you know, what do you, I think my exact question was, what do you say when you hear people saying that they, The Golden State Warriors are at fault from the top down for Kevin Durant re-injuring himself tonight. And that's what, that's what I, that's what I, that's, you know, the one, Jay Williams, who I guess is good friends with Kevin Durant. Yeah.

So the one thing that he said, you know, I think it was the day after or two days after the Achilles injury, he said that the Warriors handled it all wrong during the process, saying that, you know, when we were going game by, game. Like, you know, is he going to be available for game two, game three, game four. I agree with him on that. But here's why I disagree. I thought it was, look, if I'm Kevin Durant, I say, you tell them whatever you think you need to tell them to give us a competitive advantage. If they have to prepare for the possibility that I might play, and that helps us, I don't care what people say if I don't play. You know, that's a good point, Kevin, but I thought, you know, I hadn't thought of it that way. I hadn't thought of it that way.

My thinking of it was, first of all, Tony and I sit on PTI every day because we both believe this. We didn't believe Kevin Durant would play again in a world. Well, I didn't either. Yeah. And so part of mine was just say he is shut down. First of all, you stop the conversation in and around your own locker room. You just shut it down. But you –

And all the wild expectations, you shut those down. And then if Kevin Durant comes out there like Willis Reed, God bless him. And he almost did, by the way. But I would have said Kevin Durant is out indefinitely, and we don't think it's possible for him to come back, all the while working to get him back if he wanted to do that. And again, from what I was told, he wanted to do that. I just think that ultimately it's a team sport, and if the Warriors thought there was some even minimal competitive advantage to making Toronto believe that he might play the next game and preparing for that, then I don't care if I, you know, create the environment that people think that Durant isn't coming back and he's ready to play. I mean, and that's where his sensitivity plays into the whole thing, and I think that that's maybe where a lot of that, at least perceived guilt from the outside.

I mean, watching Bob Myers. You know what, those NBA finals over the last couple of games, and it drove me nuts, Mike. It was like the Warriors were more involved in Kevin Durant's injury than in trying to win an NBA title. This is why they should have shut it down. Maybe. You're making my argument now. Well, maybe I am. This is why they should have shut it down.

And, yes, I sort of believe, well, because there were so many people, and again, Hall of Fame former players. But as it turns out, there was a chance he was going to play. But again, I wouldn't be trying to alter reality. I'm trying to play with perception. You're saying you wouldn't have cared what the perception was. I would have. Because I think the perception probably didn't even help the Warriors,

because they appeared so preoccupied with it. But there were so many people like Hall of Famers, like Charles Barkley, saying they're not going to win without him. They can't win without him. And so I think all of that. was what dominated the conversation over the past, over the, actually it dominated the whole series, whether or not they could win without them.

And I just, I would have gone the traditional other way on that. You know what? I'll leave you with this last thought. I, you know, I love the NBA, and all of what's happened over the last week is not for me, but I know it is for many. It's nowhere near equal or in the same ballpark of what we saw after the first round.

I thought this past postseason after the first round was one of the better and more exciting and compelling post seasons in a long time, in part because I'm a huge Kauai Leonard fan, and watching him in every one of those games against the Bucks and then the Warriors, the Sixers first, was an incredible watch if you're a basketball fan. It's amazing to me how the sport is as much about what happens off the court as what happens on it. It drives me nuts. And you know what? The truth of the matter is I think social media distorts that because the ratings, I know they weren't great,

but they still trump the draft night. Well, but you know what, Kevin, and this is where, you know, it's interesting, deal with the NBA because you have to deal with the NBA. Because you have to deal with the NBA right now, you have to deal with China. I mean, it's literally. Well, you're equal.

So the shows that we're on appear in China live. So 8 o'clock in the morning. Do you know what the numbers are? You have any idea with the numbers for the pregame show in China is the... I can only imagine. Yeah. 22 million. Jesus God.

Can you imagine if Hachamur and the Wichens? Oh, my. If he becomes a popular guy? Yeah. And so the games, Kevin, are getting in the 40 million plus. That's amazing. I think I read that the Warriors Rockets game six got 60 million. And I make this point only to say this.

In the United States of America, people are invested in all these, in this garbage that is known as ratings because they don't really want to know. We don't really know because we don't want to know. How in the age of technology could we not know every single eyeball? Because they do in China, they have a much greater and more sophisticated way of telling us what the numbers are. How many people are watching at what time? We're guessing at it like it's the 1960s. Nielsen ratings? Are you kidding me?

What are we trying to figure out who people are watching? Laughing? This is a joke. So I don't know who's watching. I don't know how many handheld are on. I don't know how many people are watching in sports parts or other places where the measurements are like something from the 60s. The league is more popular than it's ever been, in part because of the drama on the court. But yes, as you say.

It is just, it is conducive because of the fame of the personalities, the unique and global celebrity driven by social media, it is in a different and better place. Baseball would kill right now, Kevin, to have the off-field interest of the NBA. Right. And I'm like you, I love the games and the action, but I will say this in closing. people often say, oh my God, there's nothing like what just happened. And they usually, it's exaggerated, it's dramatized. Kevin, this wasn't. I mean, it's sit there at 2 a.m. Eastern time.

Well, we were all waiting on Kauai. That's insane. And so I don't know what the numbers are. You know, part of the numbers are we don't know who's watching in Canada. What? What is Canada? Canada is some dark continent. You can't figure out how many eyeballs are.

I don't care if you get to take advantage of them from an advertising standpoint. You don't know who's watching in Canada. There's a stupidity. And it speaks, I don't know what it speaks to about the ability to assess who follows what in this country with television. But I don't believe the numbers that are reported at all. We could have a half-hour conversation on what you said about the Chinese knowing exactly what the numbers are and then deciding who's a bigger long-term threat. Chinese are the Russians. But we'll save that for another day.

We'll save that except for a footnote. Adrian Wojnerowski is so important in China because they see, they see Wage and they know him. He is so important that his, he has a show, he has his own show in China, which gets more than 20 million people live. Oh, my God. I didn't know that. I'll just leave you with that. If people think that... I did hear about Wohombo. Oge's Twitter followers during this particular offseason. Yeah, Twitter followers and, but his, he has a YouTube shows, I think, multiple. I think multiple.

I'm not certain about multiple, but I know he has at least one. And I said to him, Woge, your agent has to be the happiest person in America. Because, I mean, what is Roge worth if he can get that kind of play? And again, in international streams, why did the Red Sox and Yankees just play in Europe? because all of these commissioners and owners know they're not new revenue streams in the United States of America, but there are elsewhere. I think Wode should go talk to Stefan Marbury and figure out how it worked for him over in China. I love doing this with you. Thanks so much. I'll talk to you soon.

Kevin, you're welcome, man. Talk to you soon. If you are looking for new office space and you live in the Bethesda area, Upper Northwest D.C., Chevy Chase, somewhere in that area, I want you to consider launch workplaces in Bethesda. It's brand new. They've got a beautiful new space providing fully furnished offices, conference rooms, co-working desks, high-speed internet, complimentary drinks, a cafe. Free parking and plenty of it. Get more work done today by moving your offices to launch workplaces in Bethesda. Call today for an exclusive free two-day trial, 240-86714 or go to launchworkplaces.com. They have other locations around the area, and you can find them also at launchworkplaces.com.

All right, let's bring in Todd Dibis to finish up the show this morning. Todd's always been one of my favorites. I love talking to him about basketball, which I think is something that he's covered very well over the years. But he writes for NBC Sports Washington, and he's covering the Nats right now. And the Nats have just completed an incredible run from 19 and 31 to 47 and 42, where they are now. I think it's 28 and 11 here over the last month and a half. And they are currently right now the number one wild card team, an incredible turnaround. It's, you know, you wrote, it's a six-week journey that resuscitated their season. What's been most responsible for it?

You know, I think three things. One certainly is health. When I wrote that story that you're alluding to, I went back a couple weeks prior to when this rebound began. And so I was back in early May in Philadelphia, and Wilmer Diefo was hitting second, and Adam Eaton was hitting third, and Kurt Suzuki was the cleanup hitter, and Jake Null was in the lineup, and Andrew Stevenson was in the lineup. Victor Robles was the leadoff hitter. And just you look at that lineup and roll your eyes and think, you know, no one ever thought that this would be the lineup the Nationals would put out there.

this season, unless maybe it was September and all was lost and you're just playing out the strength somehow, but certainly not against the division rival in early May, but that's the situation they were in. Two, the bullpen has moved back toward league average or has been a league average bullpen basically for the last six weeks. Now, no one's going to have a parade because of that, but it's so much better than what they were. It just makes everything else more reasonable. Three, we've seen some guys who struggled early get going. Brian Dozier, Juan Soto, in particular, come to mind. And then four, where they put their money has really come through for them the last six weeks. And that's the top three guys in the rotation. Max Scherzer,

unbelievable June. He, I mean, that run started, his run started right when their run started as a team and continues here into July. Patrick Corbyn's been pretty good. Despite, some up and downs, and Stephen Strasbourg has been very good, especially if you look at some of his deeper peripheral numbers. So they paid a lot of money for those three guys, and they're coming through here at late. Yeah, I mean, I think I read this morning over the last seven games, the starters have a 1.35 ERA with 65 strikeouts. In fact, the combination of Scherzer, Corvin, and Strasbourg, you've got three pitchers with at least 125 strikeouts prior to the All Star break. That is apparently history making. It has never happened. So the starting

pitching has been incredible. I also look at this and I look at, you know, this, when they lost those two to the Braves a couple of weeks ago at home, you know, after taking that first game, and that Saturday night loss in particular was galling because I think they had a four-run lead in that game. I think it was eight to four at one point. And then you looked at this schedule approaching the All-Star break of the Marlins six times and the Royals and the Tigers, terrible teams. I think it's like four of the five worst teams in baseball. This was the opportunity and they really, this run, Todd, was so huge to get them to where they are.

It's almost like the schedule and the Marlins in particular have been an elixir for them this year when they've been struggling. But how crucial was it that this portion of. the schedule came when it came? Yeah, enormous. And, you know, they were still losing to these types of teams earlier in the season. And the main reason they were doing that was because they were not playing mistake-free baseball, at least, you know, 80% of the time, they were screwing things up and helping the other team. And lately, that has done a 180, where 80% of the time they're now just playing clean baseball. And as you mentioned, they have way more talent on the

roster than those teams that they've been playing recently. And subsequently, you see them stomping those teams. And, you know, at the beginning of the season, when we were kind of trying to project out the National League East, one thing we all talked about quite a bit, and I know I did, was the record against the Miami Marlins, the Miami Marlins may decide the division. And it may decide postseason birth. And that's because if you go 15 and 4 against them, then you're 11 over against a division opponent, and you're going to put yourself in a very good situation as you duke it out with the other good teams in your division.

But if you win only 10 times and just kind of go just above 500 against the Marlins, then you're probably going to be in some trouble. So we saw a national to drop an early season series to the Marlins, and remember Max Scherzer's bad start, basically the only really bad start he had all year was in Miami earlier in the season. And then recently we've seen them, you know, get fat on these guys, and rightly so, to get themselves back into this race. And to your point, correct me if I'm wrong,

but I know the Phillies in particular have actually struggled against the Marlins. Like, I don't know what their record is against the Marlins. I guess I could look it up real quickly, but I know in some of the recent series against the Marlins, the Phillies have really struggled. and the difference between, you know, the Phillies being probably two games out versus six and a half out is probably the way they performed against the worst team in baseball, or one of the two worst teams in baseball. Yeah, and that's exactly right. So, you know, we saw this last year in the American League East where you saw two good teams at the top

beating the crap out of the rest of the division, in particular the Baltimore Orioles. and we're seeing some of that again in the ALEs this year. And we've seen this in the past, too, in the NLEs, when the nationals were, you know, a 90-plus win team, 95-win team, you know, you're hammering on the Marlins to boost your win total up to that point. It's just everybody figured the division winner would be more around the 88 win, 90-win mark this season. So what you did against the Marlins was all that much more important

because things were going to be much tighter in just. general. Six and seven, by the way, the Phillies are against the Marlins this year. Yeah, that's not going to work. So I was sitting in on Kornheiser's podcast earlier this morning, and he felt yesterday's win, you know, after blowing a two-nothing lead in the eighth, and then coming back with three of their own, that that was a real tone-setter and a crucial game, you know, and it's one of 162, and they've got 73 or 70s. 74 left, whatever it is. But he felt like a loss after blowing a 2-0 lead and losing it with your bullpen would have been a real hurtful loss. Do you feel the same way? Yeah, I feel similar in particular because that would have been, you know,

a couple in a row, and you just, I'm sorry, two or three in the series. And that would be against the Royals, again, another one of baseball's bad teams at this point. So, yeah, I thought it was a good win. And you know what I thought it was, Kevin, was really a human nature win. They beat human nature as much as they beat the Royals because you've been in a really good surge for six weeks. The All-Star break is mere minutes away in that situation.

And you can kind of fold it up and say, we just kind of let this one slip away late, whatever. We'll move on. Everybody pack up. Patrick Corbin's going to the Hampton's. Juan Soto's going to New Jersey. Max Scherzer's coming here to Cleveland for the All-Star game. All those sorts of things can creep in your head.

Instead, a very big rally, an aggressive rally, a rally that hilariously sent Max Scherzer out to the field in the eighth inning, and I hope to talk to him about that today down here in Cleveland. And then Sean Doolittle, who is on pace for 70-plus appearances, and is on pace that set a career high in appearances, which is something everyone should keep an eye on. The rest of the way comes in and finishes it off. So an excellent win for them.

Just kind of put a bow on everything they've been doing since late May. All right. A couple things to get to. First of all, do you think, given this run here into the All-Star break, do you think by the time we get to the trade deadline, which is, what, July 31st, the end of the month, will they be buyers for bullpen help? I do, and I think this run determined whether they were going to be buyers or sellers.

They could have been significant sellers all the way down to maybe even do little if they thought that. I never thought Max Scherzer would get traded no matter what, and I'll always believe that. I know that was kind of floated around a little bit in the Internet land, but guys like Brian Dozier, certainly Howie Kendrick, Matt Adams again, maybe even Jan Goams, and, you know, there's a lot of guys that they have that they could have traded veteran guys who would be rentals for other teams and serviceable parts for teams that are trying to make the postseason. And you could have seen, you know, four, five, six of those guys get moved. But now no one's going anywhere.

I would expect them to bring in bullpen help, certainly is the top priority. The challenge for them is they are far from alone in that need. And this is a whole separate podcast, whether the amount of bullpen usage that now exists in Major League Baseball is actually possible. If there's actually the number of relievers on the planet who can do this well enough that you can use bullpens this way, I think that's up for debate at this point. We've seen a lot of bullpen trouble across the league. But nationals will definitely be looking for bullpen help. A lot of other teams will definitely be looking for bullpen help. and something that's going to help us as people who watch the game and reporters,

the deadline is actually a deadline this year. There is no doing things in August anymore, and actually this is an idea that would have served the nationals well last year, and they probably could have made better decisions July 31st instead of lingering and hanging on the guys for too long. Any concern about Max Scherzer's back? Legit concern. No, I don't think so.

Is this just a way to get out of the All-Star game? No, I don't think so. I think he would pitch if he felt fine. I really do. As you know, he's pretty dialed into everything he wants to do. And when he sets his line to it, he goes out and does it. And there was nothing leading up to that that indicated to us that, you know, he had any intention of not pitching in the All-Star game. I think we're all taken by surprise. That was a 10.45 p.m. announcement on Saturday. after we were all at the park all day, and there was nothing indicating that, you know, he thought for a second about not pitching. In fact, they kept saying over and over again, you know, that he would, and that kept coming

up because we were discussing the Anthony Rendon situation. So, no, no concern. I mean, you know, he's thrown a lot of innings. He's 35, but we said that stuff at the beginning of the season. Look what happened. I mean, this guy is as professional as it gets. And that in particular applies to his off days. We're talking to Todd Dibis, who covers the Nats for NBC Sports, Washington.

Follow Todd on Twitter at Todd underscore Dibus, D-Y-B-A-S. What do you know about Anthony Rendon's contract extension, the state of those talks? Yeah, I think things are percolating a little bit. Scott Boris was in town over the weekend. we saw him with the learner family. Rendon is going to be in D.C. the entire break. And to me, this is something, Kevin, that they really need to get done. I don't say that often about organizations across any sport, really.

But in this case, it couldn't be more apparent. Rendon's value, they've gotten a good look at, hey, this is what we look like without Bryce Harper, and Anthony Rendon and Juan Soto is surrounded by good parts. really good foundation. And in particular, when you look at third base with the organization, you know, there's nothing there that you would be like, oh, we'll be fine. It's not this kind of situation where you looked at should they retain Bryce Harper and then you look at their outfield options and go, okay, well, if he's not there, you know, these all make sense. And you've got some pretty good players out there. That's not the case at third base.

So to me, you know, for PR reasons of not, you don't want to not pay Harper and then not pay Rendon and back-to-back seasons. And certainly for on-field reasons, you want to retain Anthony Rendon. He's your best player who's not named Max Scherzer. You know, he just checks all the boxes for you. And he's someone to me who clearly should be paid. It's just a matter if the learner family. is going to want to creep near that. What I assume is going to be around Nolan Aeronado's number,

because that's probably where Anthony Rendon and Scott Boris are near. We don't know that. That's conjecture by me. But it would seem to make sense that that's what they're looking at. And, of course, Scott Boris, just more and more leverage with each passing day. Rendon in the All-Star game finally, you know, top five in OPS and the NL, just an outstanding player. or so, you know, they're willing to wait until they see math that they like.

Where is that, Aaronado number? Is that like 30 million? What is it per year? Is it 30 plus million per year? Let me take a look at his numbers. I don't want to get out of here. His was 8-260. Okay.

So it's a north of 30 million year. Yeah, Rendon's 29. So that eight part of that needs to come back to six. but I think it's the average annual value is where they're kind of looking at that as a model. All right. Last one, and I'll let you run. I don't know how much you've looked at Atlanta's schedule, Philly schedule, the Nats schedule, some of the other contenders for the wild card. But where would you sort of size up the Nats chances here at the All-Star break to be playing in the postseason? I think they're pretty good. You know, and I think we're just talking about how they went through

a stretch of the schedule against bad teams that helps them kind of give back in it. Well, at the end of July, they're going to go through another stretch of the schedule that's going to determine a lot of stuff. Colorado is in D.C. for four games. Then the Dodgers are here for three, and then the Braves are here for three. And that comes after four in Atlanta. So, you know, a big time end to July against some quality teams for the nationals. you know, again, the starting pitching for them has always been the foundation. That's what

Microsol wants to do. And that's why I feel like they have as good a chance as anybody, because what ails them primarily can be fixed, and that's the bullpen. That remains spin. It has to get better. It's just a matter of how much it will cost the nationals to make it better in trades and maneuvers before the deadline. It is odd, right? Or perhaps it isn't, you would know that they end the season with the Indians. I mean, they have the five games with the Phillies because of the one game that was postponed and rescheduled.

They have five with the Phillies there in late September. But they end with the Indians who will probably be in a wild card position themselves. Yeah, and then at the start of September, there's a run of seven to ten against the Braves. You know, and in between is at Minnesota. And at the start of the year, when you looked at at Minnesota, you kind of shrugged at that, but not now. You know, that's a good team. And the Cardinals, who knows what state will be in at that point in September, I would expect to still be hanging around to some degree.

So it's going to be a grind. That's the term we always hear about baseball, and it's more than applicable here. Todd, thanks so much. Always, you know, enjoy catching up with you. We didn't talk any hoops today. I did that with Wilbon for a while. appreciate the time. I don't want to talk about that roster. Have you seen that roster, Kevin?

It's not very good. It's not very good. Who's playing defense on that team? It's two, it's two, it's two years without, without any hope of the postseason the way I see it, at least two. And that's a shame because I thought we were in the midst, you know, just a few years ago, I thought, you know, I think you felt the same way. We were in the midst of a decade, you know, of being in the postseason and potentially even having a shot here and there of making. a decent run, but it's not going to happen. Todd, thanks. Really appreciate it. Thanks, Kevin. All right, that's it for today. Thanks to Mike Wilbon. Thanks to Todd Dybis. Thanks to

Aaron for producing the show today. Listen, any way you want to listen to podcasts, iTunes, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, tune in, Stitcher, Google Play, run all of them, but you can also listen at the Kevin Sheehan Show.com. So mention that to people as well. If you're listening, on iTunes, don't forget to review us. That helps a lot. Have a great day back tomorrow with Tommy.