The Kevin Sheehan Show - Young-Sweat Trade Talk

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

Kevin on the Wizards' season opener and the recent Chase Young/Montez Sweat trade reports to start. Nick Akridge/Pro Football Focus jumped on to talk Commanders trade talk, Sam Howell, the O-line, the wide receivers, and more. Mark Zuckerman/MASN was a guest to talk about the Phillies loss to Arizona and the inability for Bryce Harper to come through in the biggest game of his career.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You don't want it. You don't need it. But you're going to get it anyway. The Kevin Chean Show. Here's Kevin. Bullet fever. Happens to me every year. Bullets fever.

And this year the one. Bullet fever. Dr. Doctor and the Iceman. Bullets fever. Seattle was stunned. The Great Nils Lothgren, everybody, from 45 and a half. years ago, June of 1978, when everybody had bullets fever, that was the last time the NBA franchise in this city won a title. They're not going to win one this year. They're over under number in

Vegas at 24 and a half, the lowest of the 30 NBA teams. The NBA season opened last night with a double header, including the defending champion nuggets, beating the Lakers. Tonight the Wizards open up in Indy against the Pacers with pretty much a brand new team. Kyle Kuzma's back, Daniel Gafford's back, but in the starting lineup, Tyos Jones will be the point guard. Jordan Poole, who many people think could average 25, 26 points a game or more, will be in the back court with Tyos Jones. And their seventh overall pick in the first round of the NBA draft,

Balal Kulabali is expected to be in the starting lineup as well. This will be a year in which the organization takes a major step back in hopes of taking major steps forward in the future. It'll be interesting because on paper, the roster that they have now isn't terrible. It's not playoff good, but it is offensively a team that could score. a lot of points. And then they've got a couple of defenders in Denny Abdiya and Bilal Kulabali, who I think I mentioned to Tommy yesterday on the podcast. Kyle Kuzma, who I had on the radio show yesterday, said is genius defensively at 19 years old. But yeah, the wizards open up tonight. I'll be watching. I like the NBA, certainly in the postseason. I don't watch a lot of it

during the regular season, but I'm going to give these wizards a shot, see what they look like, see if any of those young players in particular. And remember, you know, a guy like Kyle Kuzma is just 28 years old. A guy like Tyos Jones is just 27 years old. A guy like Jordan Poole is just 24 years old. You know, it is possible that some of these players that they acquired, some believe as trade chips could be a part of what eventually becomes the result of this rebuild. You know, the acquisition, hopefully, over the next two seasons of many draft choices and trying to land on that superstar player. But it may cost you a pool or a Kuzma at some point along the way to get some of that draft capital. We'll see how the season goes.

I know most of you don't care. And for the most part, this show will not include a lot of NBA in October, November, December, January, February. Probably not until after March Madness is over. The show, as always, is presented by Windon Nation. Call them at 86690 Nation or go to Windonation.com for their best deal of the year. Two guests on the show today. Nick Ackridge coming up in the next segment, Nick is. with pro football focus. He's also a huge Washington Commanders fan. So lots of conversation about

Sam Howell, the offensive line, the receivers, the trade deadline, which I'll get to here in a moment. And then Mark Zuckerman will be on the show after that. Yeah, Bryce Harper didn't come through last night. A lot of you reminded me of what I've been saying about Bryce Harper that he is the most clutch team sport athlete in sports today. And he had a chance to come through last night, and he didn't. And the Phillies are out. Much more on that coming up in the final segment of the show. This review from Joey, Joey reviewed us on Apple, gave us five stars.

Thank you, Joey, very much. The title of the review is More Cooley or Doc. I love this show when Kevin Cooley, Doc, and Tom talk football. I can see why Kevin doesn't like hockey very much. Hockey players don't do much self-promotion, and the show that starts with 15 minutes of self-back-slapping for the great reviews is nauseating. That aside, I love this show. Thank you, Joey.

I don't think we really do 15 minutes. Usually I don't even read the reviews. unless Tommy's on this show, and I can read something that includes Tom, or if Coolie's on this show, I can read something that includes Coolly. But that one made me laugh. By the way, please rate us and review us if you haven't done so. It does help us out an awful lot. Subscribing to the podcast helps, and so does following us,

especially on Apple and Spotify. So I want to start with the trade deadline, which we are less than a week away from. October 31st, Halloween, a week from yesterday, six days from now is the NFL trade deadline. You know, a trade deadline that does not equal the NBA trade deadline or the MLB trade deadline. You know, the truth of the matter, as Ron would say, is that, you know, one addition on a team that can only have five, players on the floor at any given time can really change a season for a team mid-season. In baseball, you add a big-time pitcher or a big-time bat to a lineup. It can really impact the remainder of the season. Very rarely does a trade really make a difference eight games into the season

for football teams. Now, there was one last year that made a big difference. Christian McCaffrey, that trade made a big difference for the 49ers. And really, if not for the Brock Purdy injury in the NFC championship game, maybe the 49ers win a Super Bowl last year. But there's going to be some activity here over the next six days. You know, league-wide, a lot of discussion about players like Derek Henry, Sequin Barclay, Davante Adams, De Niel Hunter, who leads the NFL, in sacks. And yeah, at the top of the potential trade deadline storylines,

Chase Young and Montez Sweat. And we talked a little bit yesterday about Josina Anderson's tweet while, and she tweeted, that several identifiable teams have both interest in trading for Montez Sweat and or Chase Young and are willing to offer either of, a long-term deal ahead of free agency. Nikki Javala earlier today tweeted out the following, Nikki, of course, with The Washington Post. One team has made a trade offer to the commanders for defensive end Montez Sweat,

but none so far have offered for defensive end Chase Young, per a source, unclear of the terms for the offer for sweat. interesting. Nikki obviously covers this team very closely. So it is interesting that her source says nobody's offered anything for Chase Young, but that somebody's offered something for Montez Sweat. How about this from this morning's Jeremy Fowler, Dan Graziano, ESPN.com story. There were a couple of things in here that I found interesting.

From Dan Graziano at ESPN. Chase Young's name is a hot name right now, and teams have absolutely been calling the commanders to see what they want to do with them. In Young and Sweat, Washington's got two edge rushers slated to be unrestricted free agents at the end of the year, and the presumption around the league is that the team can't or won't be able to keep and pay them both. But under new ownership and with uncertainty surrounding head coach and chief organizational decision maker Ron Rivera, the commanders might not be in position to have decided what to do with Young yet. And it's not out of the question they could trade sweat as well. Then Jeremy Fowler reported the following.

Washington is given the impression behind the scenes that it would like to keep Young, who still needs a full healthy season to prove he's back to form. And by the way, he mentions that for right now, young is cheaper and younger. I don't know about the cheaper quite yet. He is with his current contract, maybe, in this year. But yeah, you know, he's not really that much cheaper than Montez Sweat. I think actually in this particular stretch of the story, he was comparing him to whether

or not you would want DeNeil Hunter from Minnesota or Chase Young. And DeNeal Hunter's got a much bigger current deal. The other thing that was in here was from Jeremy Fowler saying that he was told recently that games seven and eight were big for Washington's potential plans at the deadline. So I want to start right there. They lost game seven to the Giants. Game eight, I guess he is suggesting, might be important as well, because if they were to pull off the win over the Philadelphia Eagles on Sunday and be four and four, does that mean that they're not going to consider any offers that come in for

Chase Young or for Montes-Swett or, by the way, for other players? I mean, Curtis Samuel is an unrestricted free agent at the end of the year. So is Kendall Fuller. So is Antonio Gibson. So is Cameron Curles. So are many other players. They've got a lot of unrestricted free agents at the end of this year as it stands right now. And they've got a franchise tag that they could clearly use if they need it. I personally This is a muddled situation because of ownership right now, clearly,

and the fact that this is not their group. There's going to be more likely than not a different group in at the end of the year, but it should not stop Josh Harris from sitting down with Martin Mayhew and Marty Herney and Ron Rivera and saying, what are you guys thinking as it relates to the trade deadline? Because I want you to hear offers on all of our. players. We should be listening to any offer that comes in and then consider each one. Because whether or not the rest of the season goes well and whether or not you guys are back or not back,

right now as a group, we need to do what's in the best interest of the organization. And what's in the best interest of the organization is not losing a player in getting back nothing down the road. if that player isn't going to help us compete for a championship this year. We can completely eliminate any conversation, can't we? That any player on their team currently is going to be vital to some sort of championship run this year. That's why, to me, the Philadelphia game shouldn't matter. Because I actually believe there's a chance they could beat the Eagles on Sunday. But so what?

We've seen how this plays out with the game. this particular group. They'll give you a feeling like, man, they're playing pretty good football right now. And then you contemplate, well, are they a good team? Are they on the verge of becoming a good team? That conversation's taken place the last two seasons. Last year, when they were seven and five,

the year before when they got to six and six, I know I sat there and watched and wondered whether or not I was seeing something that was, you know, the development and the growth of a team that actually was becoming a good team rather than just having a potential decent record. No, I'm not buying into that this year even if they beat Philadelphia. This team is not going to win 10 games, 11 games, 12 games, and be a threat in the NFC postseason. They're not. Even if they beat Philadelphia on Sunday, this is a team that's going to be right around that 500 mark that we talked about before the season.

started. That's why I picked, you know, somewhat sticky, but I picked 8-8 and 1 for a second straight year because that's how I viewed this team. It's possible they could go completely the wrong way if things were to snowball because, you know, they're not exactly lighten the world on fire on offense or on defense for that matter. And they've got a schedule coming up that as of now looks, you know, pretty difficult. You know, games against the Eagles, two games against the Cowboys, a game against the Seahawks, games later in the year against the Niners and the Dolphins. So it's not like, you know, you look at it and say, even if they got it going the way they have the last couple of years, you know, let's just,

let's assume that nobody, these teams kind of stay what they are. And Washington comes up with an upset against Philadelphia, and then somehow Eaks one out in Foxborough, and they're five and four. They still have the Seahawks, the Cowboys twice, the Dolphins, the 49ers, the Jets on the road, that won't be easy. This is, you know, an eight-win team. They've got maybe if things start to come around and they play well enough, and we've seen them capable of playing well at times, this is a team that could win five out of their last 10, right? They're not going to win more than five out of their last 10. So Sunday's game against Philadelphia, I just don't think should matter.

They should be working the phones answering every single call that comes in. Now, Sam 40A wrote a story about sort of the pros and cons of trading Montez-Swet or Chase Young. And there was a quote in here, One senior NFC personnel executive who spoke on the condition of anonymity to evaluate another team said the markets for young and sweat will be depressed because both are on expiring deals and are unlikely candidates for trade and signs. He was especially skeptical that a team would commit to young now because of his inconsistency and injury history. He said Washington would probably receive offers of a fourth or fifth round pick, a third at absolute best. That's for Young. For Sweat, another NFC personnel executive, again on the condition of anonymity, said he could see an aggressive team giving up a second round pick for Sweat.

So, where am I? I don't want to trade Chase Young. I don't want to trade Chase Young. He is 24 years old. He is not even entering the prime years of his career. He's having a very good season. I understand these aren't game-changing plays. He didn't go in and wrecked the Giants so much that there was no way they could lose the game against sort of a third-tier offensive line in shambles. He's not Miles Garrett. He's not T.J. Watt. He's not Nick Bow. He's probably not Micah Parsons. I understand all of that. He could become one of those players somewhere down the road. I do think he's got that kind of a ceiling. But we have seen three and a half years and a lot of it's been injury riddled. And what we're seeing right now and what we saw at the

end of 2020 is a guy that can definitely be an impact pass rusher. They're hard to find. they are really hard to find. So my big takeaway here is I'm not trading Chase Young. And the idea that you could only get at this point like a third, fourth, or fifth for him, I'm definitely not trading Chase Young. I would pick Chase Young over Montez Sweat if I had to pick one or the other. And that is understanding what I don't know because that's a big part of this. what we don't know could be, you know, a mind changer for all of us on this conversation.

I do know that it wasn't easy with Chase Young in 2020, 2021, you know, even at the end of last year. And that, you know, the hope was at 22, 23, that eventually there would be some maturity, some growth. And maybe we're seeing that right now. And if we are seeing that right now, I'd like to see it play out. I personally would like to see him on the roster, whether you sign him to a long-term deal or you end up having to use the tag, but you're probably not going to get this group

to be able to pull the trigger on a long-term deal. That's going to be the next group that comes in in January. But I want them to have that opportunity to either tag him or extend him. There is risk. I get it. There's risk. He is proven to be injury-prone. And, yeah.

And by the way, I like Montes Sweat. He's excellent against the run. He is a guy right now that is like ninth in TFL's. I'm sorry, he's fifth in tackles for loss. He is tied for ninth in sacks right now in the NFL. He's actually having a good year, sweat is. And Sweat is definitely more consistent against the run. I like Montez Sweat.

also very kind of athletic freakish, you know, athleticism he has. I like both of them, but you're probably not going to keep both of them. So understanding that, young would be the one I would want to keep. What they end up doing, I don't know. Keep in mind, too, that compensatory picks, they are offset by how much you spend, spend in free agency. And Washington's got a lot of money to spend next year if they want to do it in free agency. They got the fifth most available cap space for 2024. So if Washington lost Montez Sweat or Chase Young to free agency, there's no guarantee even if those guys sign a big

deal that Washington's getting a third round pickback. Because it depends, you know, and there's a formula, it depends on the players they spend for. What I don't want to happen is. What I don't want to happen is I don't want this franchise, which is going to be retooling certainly a little bit when this season ends. Definitely as far as front office coaching staff, pretty good bet at this point. I don't want them to have a player of value walk for nothing. We have already been through that in this town, and it's not fun to watch Kirk Cousins leave for basically nothing. had a chance to get a lot, Trent Williams to basically walk for nothing when you had a chance to get a lot. That can't happen. That's where Josh Harris has to step in and make sure that the

long-term interest of this organization is an absolute priority here over the next six days. I wanted to read this tweet real quickly. I got from Marcus on Twitter. You can follow me on Twitter at Kevin Sheen, D.C. He wrote, and it's off of kind of the conversation that we had yesterday about Ron Rivera's presser from Monday where, you know, he was kind of positioning himself as, hey, don't look at the record, don't look at the losses to the Bears and the Giants. We're building for the future. and we've got this wonderful young quarterback. Marcus wrote, you nailed it.

Rivera's really compensating now. He knows the end is near. Question for you, do you really think he believes what he's saying about how, or is it, as you've said, wishcasting? Thank you. By the way, you can follow me on Twitter,

as mentioned at Kevin Sheen, D.C. So I kind of addressed this with Tommy to a certain degree yesterday. I think it all started in January, like Ben Standing explained back in March, April, May. I think Ben was totally onto it. I think that this was a bit of, you know, a look over here, don't look here, kind of like what he did the other day. And that was don't look at the Cleveland game and the way the season ended.

Look at the guy that started the season finale. Look at the way he played. By the way, 11 for 19. He was okay. And we've got our quarterback. He's our QB1 heading into the offseason. And that, I think in the moment, Marcus, was wishcasting. I think that that was very hopeful, but more wishful, without really knowing what the right answer was.

You know, they said all the right things, you know, Oh, you should have heard the D.Bs talking about how they turned around. The ball was already there. The receivers are coming out of their brakes. Ball's already there. Well, yeah, they were comparing it to Taylor Heineke's, you know, throwing of the football. I think in that moment, it was all about how do we make them forget how badly this season ended. And now knowing that we can't do anything big in free agency, we can't go after a quarterback in a big way because of the ownership situation.

let's really build up Sam Howl. But as I mentioned to Tommy yesterday, I think Sam really helped them out. Help them out during the offseason because he really showed a lot of promise, helped them out during the summer in preseason games, in their practices with the Ravens. There was nothing in watching him in the offseason over the summer

that said, uh-oh, we never had that moment. then when the actual games began, there has been more good than bad. So I do think this was wishful thinking to begin with, but I think they got a little bit lucky in that it could have gone the other way. He could have been horrible. They didn't really know, but as it turns out, they had a guy that had some skill and talent, which they knew, and he more than made something out of that skill and talent and work ethic and and coachability and some of the intangibles that he has. And even though we still don't have an answer on Sam Howell,

that's better than having the answer, no, he's not the guy. We don't know that for sure. It's not obvious that he's not the guy. There are things that are troubling, of course, and we've gone through all of those things. And Nick Ackridge will speak to some of that from a PFF standpoint in the next segment. But for the most part, we haven't seen a guy completely crap the bed. And therefore, he can continue to say, as he did the other day,

we got this young guy. And he's giving us an opportunity. And we're building for the future. And, you know, maybe I'm going to leave you with your franchise quarterback. I wouldn't wager on it even now. No chance. I think the chances are still less than 50-50. that he ends up being a long-term, you know, franchise quarterback answer.

Actually, a lot less than 50-50 that he ends up being sort of that franchise quarterback type. But a little bit less than 50-50 that he ends up being, you know, a starting caliber NFL quarterback. There's just a lot and a long way to go before we can say that or even wager that that is the probability. Because I don't think it is. But anyway, thank you, Marcus. Yeah, I think right now he believes that Sam Howl's got a chance. And that's probably much different than how he felt back in January. All right, up next.

Actually, let me just real quickly tell you about our good friends at the bullpen. The bullpen is the perfect place to watch sports outdoors. It's been the go-to spot for baseball fans. You know, if you're down at Nats Park and you're at a game, you go to the bullpen before, you go to the bullpen after. It's right there in the heart of Navy Yard. It's the place with all the crates and then all of the bars and all the live music and all of the people. It's such a great spot.

It's a great place to go hang out on a Saturday or a Sunday to watch football. This is something they're doing down at the bullpen for the first time. You know, get your guys together. your jerseys head on over to the bullpen. They've got all the NFL and college football action. You can handle drinks, lots of energy, live music. You can go to the bullpen DC.com to see their game schedule right now, but this is a very good destination for those that want to spend beautiful fall weekends, and we've got one coming up outside watching football. The bullpen DC.com to see their game schedule.

Nick Ackridge next right after these words from a few of our sponsors. All right, guys, this segment of the show brought to you by My Bookie, guess what's back for the rest of the week right through Sunday, a chance to get a 110% cash bonus on your initial deposit. That's right. They're going to more than double your money on your initial deposit, $50 minimum, $1,000 maximum. if you deposit $1,000, they're going to give you $1,100 additionally into your account. You'll have $2,100 in your account.

You have to use my promo code, Kevin DC. This is an offer that doesn't exist anywhere. It doesn't exist on their site unless you use my promo code, Kevin DC at mybooky.ag. Now, my bookie's line right now, I'm pulling it up for the will. Wizards tonight. Remember we've got the Wizards opener down to five at My Bookie right now. That line opened at like seven. And the current number for Washington, Philadelphia on Sunday is Philadelphia six and a half. totals at 43 and a half. So if you like Philly laying this six and a half, get it here. Get it at my bookie. If you like Washington, maybe wait a little bit. You might. get it at plus seven. I don't know where that line will go, but I can tell you this. I think Washington's going to be in the smell test again on Friday. This time as the team that I'm going to

tell you to bet versus last week when I told you to bet the Giants. MyBooky.ag, they've been great to offer up what they've been offering up, which is this 110% cash bonus on your initial deposit. You deposit 100 bucks. You're going to have $210 into your account. You've got to use my promo code, Kevin D.C. at my bookie.orgie. Jumping on with us right now, Nick Ackridge from Pro Football Focus. Nick's been on the show many times in the past at PFF underscore Nick Ackridge on Twitter. He's a data analyst for PFF. His favorite team is Washington. So even when he doesn't have the responsibility for grading Washington, he pretty much looks. He pretty much looks and scrutinizes those grades anyway. By the way, did you have the responsibility this week

of doing the Giant Game or not? Yeah, I did. I had the pleasure of grading the Washington offense versus Giant Defense. Okay, well, we'll get to that because I do want your opinions on what you saw on tape of the Giant Game. But I talked in the Open just about the idea that, you know, Chase Young and Montez Sweat are near the top of the list of the players being bandied about with respect to trade deadline deals. And I'm curious as to what you think, A, they should do and B, they will do. Yeah, so everything's been kind of in a weird position, just kind of with this whole kind of lame duck sort of year that we've had with Rivera in the front office and all that sort of stuff.

And no one really knows what they're going to do in the future. I mean, I think we all kind of have an idea that this might be, you know, Rivera's last year and, you know, changes are going to come to the front office. So then it's a question of, you know, do you want these guys making the decisions for the future and will it really kind of help you in the future if you're going to trade, you know, someone like Chase Young and Montcett's sweat for like a third or fourth round pick? Because that's really what you're going to get because they will still need to be paid. So then you just have to kind of ask yourself that question. Is it worth a third, fourth, maybe fifth round pick? instead of, you know, possibly just paying them or tagging them next year. And if it was me, I would kind of let it play out.

I don't think that, like I said, those mid-round picks are really worth, you know, these kind of rental years essentially is what you're going to be doing if you get rid of them. And we don't really see that very often in the NFL. It's not like the MLB or NBA or NHL or stuff like that where you have these rental guys kind of dealt at the trade deadline. It's a little different in the NFL. So if it was me, you know, me, I'd be looking to extend someone like Chase Young because he's come back and he's had, you know, he's looked as good as he was as a rookie. And there's some stuff on tape that's really,

really promising. And it's really what you wanted to see, you know, as he came back. That's my big takeaway as well. Like, for me, I just don't want to see Chase Young in another uniform next year. I want to see it play out with him. And by the way, I like Montez Sweat, too. I'd love to see him here. But does it make sense given even in consideration of all of the salary cap space that they have to play with in 24? Do you think it makes sense to try to keep both of them? It's tough just because you've already kept both of Allen and Payne. And to allocate all of that money to four guys on one position unit is really kind of tough to kind of wrap your head around.

I think Montes-Swed does deserve a second contract, whether it's a massive second contract that is, whether it's here or with another team. And I think we could kind of be looking at another Preston-Smith situation. I know everything Contest Sweat has kind of looked at through the Preston-Smith eyes just because, you know, Mississippi State guy and all that other stuff and whatnot. But if it was me, I'd be choosing one of them. I don't think you should look to kind of give both of them a massive extension.

I would be picking one. and I would go off the guy who's younger and is shown more flashes and more promise. And for me, that would be Chase Young. Do you think that if, you know, some of the reporting over the last 24 hours has been that teams would be willing to immediately look at a long-term contract extension with either sweat or young if they were to acquire one of those two players, if there was a simultaneous deal with kind of an understanding that there was a long-term deal that was going to be signed? Do you think Washington could extract more than a third or a fourth for either?

I think you could maybe get a little bit more, but again, it's not like you're the ones paying them, and then you kind of trade them off after that. So maybe you could get a little bit more if you could kind of get that promise of a deal getting done. But again, I think if they do get traded, I think, you know, Washington fans should expect, that the return is not going to be very, very big. It's not going to be just for someone, you know, who has half of a season left on their contract. And even if they are kind of, you know, traded and then signed to a long-term deal, I think you have to really temper your expectations with what you're going to get in return.

Yeah, and one of the things to keep in mind, right, is that while compensatory picks are a part of the conversation, because of the salary cap space that Washington has next year and the, and the prospect, it, they'll be very active in free agency. It's possible that it'll all kind of wash out, and you'll end up losing one of these two guys and getting nothing back in return long term. Yeah, it's just such a tough situation that put themselves in with, you know,

this is kind of the other side of drafting four defensive linemen in the first round. It's like you can't really pay all of them a second contract. I mean, you could, but then you're going to have a lot of holes elsewhere. So it's just a very tough situation. And I'm really intrigued with what they're going to do in the future with both young and sweat. Who's having the better year right now, Chase Young or Monta's Sweat? I would lean Chase Young.

Montes Sweat started off really, really hot, you know, with the first couple of games and whatnot. I mean, the first game against Arizona was one of his best games he's had in his career. Cooled off a little bit, but there's still some flashes of Montesad Sweat. He's always been a, you know, a consistent, reliable edge. rusher. You know what you're going to get from him. Freaky athlete. Great in the run game as well. And just for me, Chase Young has shown exactly what we've kind of been looking for ever since he's kind of returned from injury. And that's, you know, varying his pass rush and winning with something other than pure athleticism and speed. I mean, there's, there's some great examples

against the Giants this past week where he's, he's setting up, you know, the left tackle there. And again, you're playing a left tackle who was on his couch two weeks ago. So I would, I would like to see it with, you know, maybe better competition, but there's still some high-level stuff there where he's timing the snap up perfectly, winning with a speed rush, and then because of that, the tackle has to now kind of cheat outside, and he's countering with an inside move and draws a holding, and then he is back to the speed rush, and then he's winning with a bull rush, and it's really, really promising stuff to see, and this is the type of stuff that you wanted to see, and why you kind of made this a prove-it year for him, and these are the things that you're looking for on tape,

and the different ways that he's winning and kind of dominating the line of scrimmage. And this is what you want to see. And that's why I would lean towards Chase Young. I agree with you. I'm also interested as to whether or not you've given any thought to other players that teams may want. Other players that might not be back with your team next year. Look, part of the thinking on this from my standpoint and tell me if you agree, I just don't want to lose players for nothing when you could get back something for a year that I don't think is going to end up being a great season.

Like, I know it's the NFL, we all understand things change. They could beat Philly. They could be four and four. But we all kind of also, through these first three and a half seasons, understand where it's going to end. You know, it's going to end at eight and nine or nine and eight, eight and one. and this isn't going to be a team that contends for anything. So what about a Curtis Samuel or a Kendall Fuller who aren't under contract next year? You know, two players that have played well this year,

not to mention an Antonio Gibson who is, you know, a role player. I think I was hopeful that he'd become more than that. What about other players? Have you given thought to some of the other players that are not under contract after this year? Yeah, I mean, good organizations are honest with themselves. They know what to expect and they're not going to, you know, over-expect, you know, what can happen in here. And like you said, we all kind of knew really going into this year, they would kind of hover around 500. And that would have changed, you know, if you got incredible quarterback play from a young quarterback that no one really knew what to expect.

So around 500 is kind of what we've expected. is kind of what's happening right now. And like you said, I think that's kind of where they'll end up. So then you have to be realistic with yourself. And then it comes down to, like you said, do you want to just let these guys walk for nothing? And then you go back to the fact that it's a tough spot where we kind of all know what's going to happen with this front office and this coaching staff and whatnot. So you want them making decisions. And it's just such a mess right now.

And part of me wants to just, you know, blow it all up. But part of me wants to, you know, you've drafted good players, you've signed good players, you want to reward them and keep them on your team. And it's, I don't know, some days I wake up and say, blow it all up. I mean, after Sunday I was saying that. And then other days I'm like, you know what, maybe keep these guys rethink it. And it's just it's a tough spot that they've really found themselves in. And it's partly because they have a new owner, which we're all very happy about,

but it's also partly because they've consistently underperformed for a couple years now. Yeah, I mean, I think the whole blow it up thing, and I'm not so. suggesting that you're describing it this way, but you can't just blow things up because you have to fill a roster out with 53 players. And you've got some young, talented players that if you were starting from scratch as an expansion team, you would want on your roster. So they're already on your roster or potentially can be on your roster. You know, and we know who those players are. And that's what's intriguing to me about Chase Young is that we're seeing some of what we saw or we thought we were going to see for the duration, and he's only 24 years old.

You know, Cameron Curles. Yeah, I think people forget that. He's still 24 years old, and he's coming on a second contract. Yeah. By the time he's done with his next contract, he might not even be 30. So it's just that's the type of guy you resign and you keep around for a long time. Yeah, and there are things we don't know that maybe they know, and maybe, you know, I saw Nikki Javala's tweet a little while ago where she said they've had

a team reach out to them about Montez Sweat, but nobody's reached out to them about Chase Young. You know, there have been a lot of other things with him in his first three and a half seasons, but on the field this year, there has been that indication of what we all thought we were getting when they drafted him number two overall. But I was just, you know, taking the ownership situation, which you're 100% right on. Like, I hope Josh Harris gets in the room with Martin Mayhew and Marty Herney and Ron Rivera and says, look, guys, you know, there may be an opportunity here. I don't want to be at the end of this season and we lose three players to free agency that we could have gotten back, you know, a third, four, and two fourths for, you know, on the trade

deadline. So I would imagine that somehow, some way those conversations are going to take place. But if it were a normal situation, do you think Fuller and Samuel in particular, would be on the block and what would they bring back? I think they both had decent years. Are they having good PFF years? Yeah, I mean, Ken O'Four, it's one of the best years he's had since he kind of joined Washington. He's always been a really solid corner, but this time he's, and it could be just because, you know, teams are attacking other corners and whatnot, and we've seen that with Forbes, but he's having a

really good year. He's always been a very, very solid corner. So I think he could attract something on the market and something that is valuable. And like you said, if you're not going to use them in your future plans, I think it is tough to swallow the fact that you might let him go for absolutely nothing. But again, the NFL is so tough to kind of judge these trades because we just don't see it the way we do with other leagues. We don't really see trades for rentals very often. So it's tough to kind of really know what to expect when you're looking at these sorts of trades. All right. Let's go backwards a little bit, not just to Sunday, but to the first seven weeks of the season, because I think the last time you and I talked was on radio maybe a month ago.

So I want to start with Sam Howe, because I know you're, I'm pretty sure if my memory serves me correctly, you are a big fan of Sam Hal. So how would you evaluate him right now after seven weeks? But prior to the Giants game, it was rough. I mean, there is still so much to like on tape, but we're getting to the point where is it enough to kind of counteract this whole stack problem? And prior to the Giants game, the majority of the sacks were on him. Like, it was his fault. You weren't having, this offensive line is not great by any standard,

but they're not as bad as some of the sack numbers and pressure numbers have seen, just because of the sheer amount of times they're dropping back, the amount of times that Sam is running into pressures and sacks. I've kind of had to start to ask myself, is the other stuff worth all of these sacks? Because it's tough to get out of us. You know, when you put yourself in first and 16 or second and 18 and stuff like that, it's tough to get out of that consistently,

and we've seen that these past couple weeks. So it's starting to get to the point where, you know, he's not really figuring it out, and this has been a consistent problem throughout college. and now again in the NFL through six, seven games, we're starting to get to the point of, you know, this is just kind of who he is and we might have to accept it, and then you have to ask yourself, you know,

is it worth, you know, is the high-end stuff worth, you know, all of these negative plays with the sacks and whatnot? Why? I've asked this question of multiple people here over the last week, because I had Eric Eager on the radio show last week, and he made a statement which, you know, angered a lot of our fans, but got a lot of... Oh, yeah, I saw that one. Yeah, in which he said, you know, Sam Howell's a good backup quarterback. And, you know, his explanation was an explanation that, you know, I've talked about a lot before.

I'm sure you have and many others have, and that is, for whatever reason, this sack problem is something that typically more often than not doesn't improve dramatically. And for me, and I don't know if you feel the same way, but it is a fatal flaw. You can't lose 215 yards of yardage over a five-game period. That's not sustainable, you know, offensive football. You're just punting too much. You're creating, you know, opportunities for the defense, et cetera, et cetera. I think we all understand that. But the question that I asked him, then I asked Jay Gruden, that I asked Doc, I can't remember

who else I've asked. why is it a problem that typically there's no improvement with or very, very modest improvement with? There are a couple of examples. We pointed them out. Alex Smith had an early career problem and then became Checkdown Charlie, as we know. I think that was, you know, you guys used him as your PFF checkdown stat, the Alex Smith stat. But why is it something where guys can improve on an interception problem? problem. Guys can improve on, you know, other things, but the sack numbers typically don't improve.

Why? It's a processing speed sort of thing, and it's tough to really, you know, speed up that process once you kind of, you know, have it. And like you said, there have been examples where guys kind of completely changed their game. And, you know, and Alex Smith turns out to going to checkdowns too quickly, and then you have a different problem. And there are other quarterbacks. Can you pick it for an example right now who is someone who has two, of a process, and he's leaving clean pockets way too early. With Howell right now, it's the opposite.

He's staying in there too long. He's just kind of too slow to get off. Like once he's gone through the progression, nothing's open. He's got to go. And for whatever reason, and I don't know if there is a solid answer that is saying, this is the reason why. For whatever reason for him, it's just, it's not clicking. If something is just not clicking in his brain that says, hey, I've got to go.

And that could be from, you know, years of playing college in high school ball, where he is the best athlete on the field and he can make anybody miss and he knows he can make anybody miss and now that you're in the NFL, you can't do that anymore. I mean, in college, he was constantly, you know, forcing miss tackles.

He led the NCAA and forced miss tackles for a quarterback and he set records doing that and you're not going to do that in the NFL consistently. And so for him, it's going to need to, you know, essentially completely switch your mindset. And that's very, very tough to ask. And then it just kind of goes back to, to whether or not you can accept the sacks.

And like you said, it's tough to really kind of accept that when it causes so much damage. When I asked you about Sam Howl, you said, you know, up until Sunday, I'm assuming that it's because, and you did say it, that, you know, the sacks Sunday weren't the percentage of Sam Sacks that they had been through the first six games of the season. And I think, you know, even without grading every play, as you sat there and watched, you saw much quicker pressures and much quicker issues up front than we had seen in the past. Were you surprised, forget the reasons, offensive line, receivers, quarterback, were you surprised even with some extra man protection that Eric Bianamy consistently dropped

him back for eight drives of the first half? I was a little surprised, and I kind of tweeted out emotionally it happened. half time saying this is the worst game plan I've ever seen. Re-watching it, I don't put all of the blame on him. I think he was expecting, you know, simple execution. And for whatever reason, the offensive line

could not simply execute, you know, pass off on stunts. They couldn't get the line set up the right way. And I don't know if that's on the center or that's on the quarterback who sets the protections. We don't really know that. Right. That's important, by the way, what you just said. What you just said is important. Yeah, it is. Because

if it was Sam's job, to shift protection to avoid these quick pressures and he didn't do it, well, then some of those sacks are on him. Right. Yeah, and we don't know. I mean, a lot of times with veteran quarterbacks, we know it's them. They're setting the protections. They've seen it all. They know what to do.

They're telling the line where to go. With young quarterbacks, a lot of times it's kind of a mix. It's kind of a 50-50 where, you know, the center is setting the protections and the quarterback can kind of override it based on what he sees And as he kind of grows, he gets, you know, more, you know, comfortable with what defenses are throwing at him. So we don't know. But there were, there were too many examples of them, you know,

sliding the line the wrong way. And for pretty obvious, you know, blitz is coming from one side. And it was very frustrating. So I think for Bienimi, it was kind of a thing like they need to execute. Like, we have the numbers here to block this. They have to be able to block it. And they were simple sons that they just weren't picking up. and I think he finally kind of got that at half time.

Like, they're not executing, we've got to really change something. And you can make the argument that's saying, hey, you've got to make that change quicker. If they're not executing, you've got to adjust to it. But again, at some point, you need NFL players to execute on kind of simple assignments. Yeah, I get that. But they've had an issue with the dropback game for a lot of different reasons this year. And I just, I guess I was surprised to see that as a bigger, portion of the game plan in the first half than I expected to see it, especially since I think

the Buffalo game, they had gotten away from that. And when they went to that, it was a lot of times with more Max Protect. But anyway, the other issue, and I'm just curious, where did Sam grade out Sunday? He had a 44.7, which was one of his worst grades of the year. And that was kind of highlighted by three turnover-worthy plays. What we gave him there was that near-pick six was one of the worst, you know, decisions you can have as a quarterback. That was our harshest-graded play where he's trying to throw it away in the hand and just throws it up to Tibido. And that was, you know, one of the easiest pick-six if that didn't happen. There was another one in the first quarter where he just kind of threw it right to a defender and went right through his hand.

Right. I can't remember the third one off the top of my head. But there were still some other... The third one was the interception. Right, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. Yep.

Yeah, that was one he just kind of underthrew. And that was open. I mean, I don't think he made the right read there with, you know, the coverage they were playing it. But it was open if you laser that ball in there. He just kind of floated a little bit. But there were also some high-end throws there, like the two to Terry McCorn down the sideline. There was another one at the end of the second half where he hit a corner out to, I believe it was Curtis Sammon on the sideline, and went right through his hands.

It's a tough, tough catch on the sideline, but the ball was perfectly placed. So it was another kind of up-and-down game, but those turnover-worthy plays, especially to drop-pick six. It's going to really bring the grade down. Yeah, I thought there was some good place, too. Like, I thought the fourth and one that they converted on the final drive was, you know, he's backpedaling against pressure, and he makes a really good throw to keep the sticks moving. And even the last play, too. The last play, too, that was, I mean, we charted that as a drop.

It was behind, but you can ask any wide receiver, you can have to hand out to himself. He'll say he's got to catch it. Got to catch that. You know, it was actually probably the luckiest non-sack of the season because they were completely, and he was completely oblivious to Isaiah Simmons coming off that edge, had no idea. And Simmons just whiffed, basically.

Mm-hmm. You know, so the other thing I was going to ask you about is I thought that at times Sunday, he was the least accurate he's been. There were a couple of throws that were high. The first down throw on the final drive, which was their best drive of the game. He's really high to Terry. That looked like a catchable ball. And then the third down before the dots and drop, he's got to give Terry a chance in

in man coverage there in the end zone, right? Yeah. That one's tough. I don't know if it's a miscommunication, and he was expecting Terry to break out wide, but it was just a very, very strange play. But no, his accuracy has started to flip a little bit. I mean, we don't use just normal completion percentage.

We use adjusted completion percentage, which takes out drop to take out throwaways and all that other sort of in spikes and whatnot. And he had the two lowest adjusting completion percentages of his season these past two weeks against the Giants in Atlanta. And like you said, he's missing easy throws. And we saw it. I think it was one of the first throws of the game where he just completely missed an easy,

like five-yard dick route to Curtis Samuel. I'm not sure if that's something we really need to worry about. It's only been two games right now that's kind of really seen that drop off. But it's obviously not great. Just curious, how do you grade that intentional grounding penalty? I think we just went with a zero because I'm not sure that it was a penalty or should have been a penalty. I mean, Robinson was right there in the flat, but usually with those we just kind of cap it as like a minus. Because you're essentially avoiding a stack, but it turned into the same sort of stack yardage.

So we usually kind of cap that at minus point five if we think that he's throwing it away unnecessarily. but for ones like that where it's kind of open to interpretation, we usually just leave it at zero. It's funny because that play, I agree with you. Like more times than not, the receivers in the vicinity, like he wasn't right there, but he was close enough that they usually, like Kirk had one on Monday night where he just threw it into the dirt as he got blitzed on a screen, and the fullback ham is near it,

but has absolutely no idea it's coming. and they didn't call grounding. And on Sunday they called it, and I don't think Sam had any clue that Robinson Jr. was anywhere near where he was throwing the ball. That was a clear trying to get rid of the football. And as he said recently, find an incompletion versus a sack. It just happened that Robinson Jr. was in the neighborhood. Yeah, it was just another kind of blown block. I think it was by the tight end on that play where instantly walked.

lost the rep and Sam was in trouble right away and just kind of got rid of it. But yeah, intentional grounding is a very subjective call. Like he said, they usually kind of give them the benefit of the doubt there. Yeah. And that one was a little surprising. How are you grading Chris Rodriguez in these limited snaps, which are typically carries? I've already mentioned, like, if you're scouting Washington, when he comes into the game, there's like a 75% chance he's going to get the ball.

What do you think of him and how have you guys graded him as a running back? Yeah, I mean, it's tough with such a small sample size. I mean, he's only had 21 total snaps, and to your point, 14 of them have been runs to him. So it is a very small sample size right now, but it's, you know, they're positive gains. There hasn't been a time where, you know, he hasn't really gotten positive yardage, I don't think. So it's been promising to see it. Stuff you want to see is why you kind of keep drafting these running backs late. and see if they can turn into someone that can, you know,

carry the workload later on. But it's been promising to start so far. I would like to see more of a sample size to really kind of make any judgments on it. We're talking to Nick Ackridge from Pro Football Focus. So back to Sam again for a moment, given that you were super high on him, but, you know, open-minded to see how it played out this season, what is your hunch after seven starts?

Is he an NFL starting quarterback or is he an NFL backup quarterback? I think he's going to be one of those guys that can trick a lot of coaches. And what I mean by that is he's a guy that you're going to see the flashes and some coaches will only see those flashes and think, hey, I can fix the sack issue. I can fix this. And he might be one of those guys that turn into a career. journeyman type of quarterback. I think that is the lowest,

that's his floor right now. And for a fifth round quarterback, that's really great to be a journeyman backup quarterback. I think people took, Eric's comment the wrong way because they want, you know, whenever you talk about a young rookie quarterback, fans are up in arms,

they want to defend him because they want him to be good, so, so badly, that they will kind of throw out the bad to, you know, kind of, you know, make excuses for all the bad stuff. You know, the sacks. They're all the offensive line and whatnot. But if you really look at it, a fifth round rookie quarterback or a fifth round quarterback that only played eight starts right now, to kind of say that his floor is, you know,

a journeyman backup good backup quarterback is really, really solid. I think that if you can fix the facts, which like we've already talked about it, it's going to be tough to do, then you're looking at a solid NFL starter. But for me, I think it's just too, I think we've seen enough now that it's going to be something that's going to be really, really tough for him to fix. And I do think he just kind of, you know, turns into that journeyman sort of backup quarterback. Tell me about the wide receivers right now, not necessarily Jahan Dotson specifically, although I'd love your thoughts on him. But I thought earlier in the year, especially against Denver, there was a lot of space, especially

with Dotson, actually, in particular. And then in recent weeks, I know that I have read, maybe from you or others that, and Cooley came on here and talked about it after one of the games, that there just wasn't a lot of open receivers at times. What do you make of the, just give me your overall on an area that we all considered to be the strength of the football team or at least the second strength of the football team after the D-lined, the wide receivers, the pass catchers? Right. It's been very, very strange because there are a lot of examples of, you know, Howell missing them when he's taking these kind of stats, and there are a lot of open receivers. And Jahan Dotson is also still, they're getting open. I mean, there are still, there are times against the Giants where you couldn't really tell if they got open because the pressure was there so quickly, they weren't even out of their breaks at that point.

So it was tough to kind of really pin it on them, but there are plenty of examples of them still consistently. getting open. I mean, I think of the Giants game, and there was on one of the sacks that there was pressure so quickly off the edge that Sam had absolutely no chance, but Terry was open in an instant on a crosser, and if he had any sort of time, he can just easily layer that ball in there and we're looking at a 34-yard game. So it's tough to evaluate wide receivers when the quarterback play and offensive line play is not up to par. But I think that they are open. They're getting open. Curtis Daniel is having a pretty solid year right now. We'd all love to see more from Terry and obviously Jahan Dauphin.

But I think that they're getting open, and it's just kind of tough with how the quarterback's taking sacks. And now in this past week, how the offensive line was just quickly giving up pressures in sacks. They like Pringle, clearly, because he's out there and he's made some good catches. What is it about him that they like, do you think? I think just familiarity with the offense. I mean, I'm not sure how long he's been with,

was with Kansas City before, but they just know what to expect. And I think at times that's nice to have as someone that's going to come in and play like maybe five to ten snaps. You just know, you know he's going to run the right route and be in the right place. And like you said, he's made some good catches. So it's what you kind of want to see out of, you know, back up wide receivers. All right, let me finish up with this. Give me a player that we haven't talked about that you think is having a good season and give me one that's having more of a disappointing season. Based on our kind of kind of preseason expectations?

Yeah. I would lean on Kendall Fuller as one that's really kind of surprised me, but we've already kind of touched on that. Jamon Davis as well, he's shown a lot of flashes of him just kind of being quicker in the run game and understanding where he needs to fit and whatnot. So I would lean on those two on the defensive side as guys that, you know, I didn't really expect a massive year out of them. I think Kendall Flores having a career year right now, and Jamie Davis is stepping up and showing why he was the first round pick.

It's taken a long time, but there are still some flashes there. As for the flip side of that, I would say it's – I hate picking on Forbes, but when you're a rookie corner, it's – you know, and now we're looking at – he was benched within six games and playing five snaps. And I think that one – I was never too high on him, but I was never this low. I didn't think it would be this bad coming in. So I would say what's been his biggest issue? Tackling or coverage? It's been both.

Tackling with him was people wanted to talk about his size being the reason he can't tackle or people would talk about the size and he's not going to be able to tackle him in the NFL. But for me it was never his size. He was always willing to throw his body in there. The problem was when you watched him in college is he's just throwing his body. He's not wrapping up. He's not doing any of that sort of stuff. And we've seen that in the NFL now where he's just throwing his body at like receivers and in the run game and whatnot. And it's not working. So that's kind of been his problem when it comes to tackling. And then for

coverage, I wrote a very long article about it, how they've kind of, you know, used him in a spot that he's not familiar with after drafting him. And, you know, he played in a very similar system in in college to what they play these past couple years, and then they kind of completely switched it up, and now he's playing it something completely different. Explain that. Like, they're playing more man coverage than we've seen in recent years, right? Their man coverage, it's up the TAD.

It's up a little bit more. But I don't know if it's necessarily the man coverage. It's just the way they've structured their defense in years past. Kendall Fuller has stayed exclusively on the right side. He's almost always been on. on the right side, and that's no matter where the ball is lined up, whether he's to the boundary or to the field. He's always, always, always, always been on the right side.

And in college, Emmanuel Forbes was the same. He always stayed on the right side of the field. So going into the season, I expected one of them to either go to the left, whether that be Fuller or Forbes. But instead, what they've done now is both of them kind of flip sides. And now they're lining up based on where the ball is located on the hash. So Fuller has always been, I might be getting us backwards, Fuller has always been the field corner,

which means he's always lined up to the wide side of the field, depending on where the ball is. Which hash the balls are, right? Yeah, and then Forbes has been the boundary corner. So they're flipping sides constantly. And again, it's not a complete excuse for some of the lack of, you know, play that we've seen from Forbes, but it's, you know, you're taking him and you're putting him

in a system that he wasn't familiar with, despite, you know, the previous system, being a fit for what he played in college. And I kind of, you know, compare it to like you're taking a left tackle and then you're drafting him to play left tackle and then all of a sudden you want to say, hey, go play right tackle. And yes, he can do it, but it's kind of all backwards now. And then you're kind of putting him back to left tackle and you're going back and

and forth between left and right tackle. That's kind of what it's doing. It just changes the way you can, you know, changes the technique you have to play with and just kind of, you know, how you backpedal, essentially. Sometimes, you know, it's just backwards. You didn't. It's been a very, it's been very, very strange is all it is. You didn't mention Jahan Dotson.

I did not mention Jahan Dotson. So the problem with Dotson right now is, again, I think he's getting open. I've seen plenty of plays where he's open. The problem is right now is the drops. And I wouldn't say it's a massive problem, but it seems like it's a huge problem. problem because they've come in such big spots. Obviously, it's, you know, it's the last play of the game on the fourth down, should have caught it. Again, it was behind, but he would have told you you should have caught it. And there was another big one the last week where it could have been a 30, 40-40-yard gain

on a perfect throw by Howell. So I think those drops, hopefully they don't get it to his head because drops aren't that big of an issue. They weren't in college. They weren't last year. I still don't think there's that big of an issue now. They could turn into that if he kind of lets this get to his head. but I'm always worried about a receiver if he's open or not, and I've seen him getting open. Nick Ackridge, everybody, at PFF underscore Nick, A-K-R-I-D-G-E. He does a great job for PFF. Follow him on Twitter, and he's a fan of the team. And so he's involved, whether he's actually involved work-wise.

he is involved certainly personally in how they're doing. I appreciate you doing this, and I'll talk to you soon. Yeah, no problem. Up next, Mark Zuckerman will jump on with me. We'll talk about Bryce Harper coming up small last night, and a lot more about the Major League Baseball playoffs, right after these words from a few of our sponsors. This segment of the show brought you by Windonation.

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Hitters count. Harper, a high fly ball to center field. Thomas settles under it and Kevin Ginkold delivers two big outs for the Diamondbacks. That was a big moment in Bryce Harper's career last night. and for those of you wanting me to admit, hey, Sheehan, what happened to the biggest clutch player in team sports? He choked big time in the moment. If that's what you want for me, fine. He didn't deliver in that big moment. That is the truth.

Two men on, two men out, four to two, bottom of the seventh. And it did feel like in the moment that that out eliminated the Phillies from the postseason, even though they had two more innings and six more outs to play with. But yeah, it was a big moment in Bryce Harper's career last night. And despite, you know, basically delivering in every other moment, the biggest moments are always out there when you haven't won the World Series, which he is not. To talk about last night, to talk about the night before,

to talk about the World Series upcoming is my good friend Mark Zuckerman from Masson's sports. You can follow him on Twitter at Mark Zuckerman and listen to his Natsch chat podcast with Al Galdi. You can get that anywhere you get a podcast. So let's start with last night. I'm a big Harper fan. I don't know where you are in this, you know, you're more of a reporter. I'm a big Bryce Harper fan. I think he's delivered over and over again in big spots, including, by the way, with the nationals in their postseason games.

I think that sometimes gets forgotten. Did you expect him to come through last night in that spot? Because I did. Yeah, I did because I think, especially in the last two octobers with the Phillies, more often than not he has come through. And that's the thing. I mean, last year he was brilliant. He did provide against the Padres, the game-changing series-changing home run that

essentially won them the pennant and made him into a new legend, I think, in Philadelphia sports lore. and really through the first multiple rounds of the playoffs this year and earlier in this series, he was doing the same thing all over again. So, yeah, you kind of feel like, okay, well, he's going to do it. Now, the guy he was facing Kevin Gingle, who nobody across baseball, myself included, knew much about, has just burst onto the scene here in the postseason and become like the most unhittable reliever in baseball somehow with a devastating slider.

I mean, he got out of that jam. He didn't create it. He brought it to get out of it against Turner and Harper, and then retired the side in the eighth and become a huge weapon for them. And I think we have to remind ourselves, even the very best players of all time still fail more often than they come through. And nobody has to get to my knowledge hit over 500 over the entirety of a season or their playoff career.

So, yeah, I expected it, but I don't think we should be shocked that in that one moment, he just didn't come through. I mean, I think that's so, like, I mean, obviously most of the people listening understand that in baseball, you know, hitting, getting a hit one out of three times is really good. So that means twice out of three at bats, you're not going to do much. But what happened, really, was that over the final two games of this series, he was O for Seven. and you know you had two chances to eliminate the Arizona Diamondbacks. And when they won game five, I didn't think there was any chance they weren't going to win the series.

When Altuvei hit that home run on Friday night, I didn't think there was any chance Houston was going to get eliminated. But despite, you know, five home runs, 12 RBIs, 12 hits, 12 walks drawn in his first 11 postseason games this year, over the final two, he was, Ofer, and it was not the Padres game from last year, which was a game five. This was facing elimination in game seven, and he was Ofer, and I think people are going to remember that. Oh, of course. And I think you and I have been around long enough to know that the average Philadelphia sports fan is not your average American sports fan. Short memories.

And it's going to treat these things a little differently than maybe the rest of us rational people out there would. And it's fair. Look, you know, they paid him all that money. They have hopped on his shoulders ever since he got there for one reason, for him to deliver for them in those biggest moments that ultimately lead them to the Promised Land. And as of yet, he hasn't quite gotten him there. You know, it felt like, I think more so in Game 7 than in Game 6. It felt like not just Harvard, but Turner, Schwerver, Castellanos, all of their big guys. It's, felt like they were feeling the way to that moment. And, you know, you said you never expected the dimebacks to come back after losing

game five. I'll agree with you on that. But once they won game six, I actually feel like it flipped in their favor because all the pressure in the world was now in the Philly. Right. In game seven, in their ballpark, as opposed to dime back who nobody ever believed would even be in that position. And just watching that game last night, it felt like the dive backs were playing free and

easy, and it was the Phillies who were tight. Now, you know, nobody knows other than the individuals what was really going inside, on inside their own heads. But just watching it from afar, it felt like they did finally for the first time let the moment become too big for them. Now, Bryce is as good as anybody at not doing that, I think, over the course of his career, but he is human and every once in a while in a spot like that, it may happen. And to me, the fascinating thing will be next year and beyond, does he use that as fuel to try to now get over that elusive hump that He's been really his whole career going back to the Nationals, still searching for that World Series trophy,

that ring that he was looking for in 2015 with Max Scherzer. Does he use that to fuel him or does this kind of weigh on him? And I think knowing him that I don't, I think eventually he's going to get there. Or if they don't get there, it won't be because of him. It'll be because of other guys. Well, look, they were playing in that game last night primarily because of him because they beat the heavily favored Braves, and he had an unbelievable series. But you know, it's interesting, as you said that, last night, going into that game,

I felt like, not that I want to refer to them as a front runner, but I felt like it was really important for them to get the lead. They did have a two to one lead, and when they snagged that two to one lead, I thought that they might be off and running at that point. But there was kind of a tightness in that team and in that ballpark last night, as loud as it was. was when my when um when Arizona scored first you know and they got one in the top of the first and I just thought you know like like you said the pressure had shifted back and in a sport in which you I mean this is going to be very um I don't know what it's going to be but you can't necessarily get your nerves out physically like in a football game or in a basketball game a couple trips

down the floor or going down to cover a kick or you're you get you get smacked upside the head and it's like I'm in the game baseball's this non-contact sport and you're at the plate and there's a lot of tension you could feel it I think watching it last night that they were tight yeah I think I think you're right and I think you put it a good way and I forget exactly what the stat was but I think they mentioned in game six at some point when timeback took the lead. I think that was the first time the entire postseason, the Philly trailed at home. Yeah.

I have that right. When I'm talking about how the crowd had finally, like, failed off, those crowds were insane. And, you know, were, like, on their feet the entire night, every one of those games. Well, it's a whole lot easier to feel that way when your team is ahead or at least all of a sudden you're trailing, and it does suck the energy out of the place, and now you have attention in there that is, you know,

had become uncommon to everyone around there. So I think there's that. I think the other more of a baseball point to all this. And I've thought this about the Phillies for the last two years, and a lot of ways it has shocked me that they have had as much success as they have had in the postseason, which is this. They are built to win on the home run. I mean, it is clear that that is their offensive approach.

And when they hit them, it's great and they win games. But when they don't, they don't have that ability to just drive in a guy from third base, like the Diamondbacks did so well. Like the Nats in 2019 did well, in addition to hitting home run. They also had the knack for the clutch hit. And it felt like, as that was all playing out, it's such an all-or-nothing approach. And when it works, it's great, but when it doesn't, it leaves you looking like they were last night. Not like they were shut out, it's not like they didn't have the opportunity.

There were guys on base almost every inning. But if you don't have that ability to get the bat on the ball and poke a single left field and driving a runner from second. Home runs are great, and the stats show you hit more home runs, you win, but they aren't always there, and they certainly weren't through the last two nights. And I do feel like all along that's been kind of the Phillies' one fatal flaw, is that they rely so much on the home run that there are times that you need something else to drive in a run. I also felt like, you know, after Nola and Wheeler, it was a problem,

although Suarez pitched well last night, but then Kimbrel, if you really want to go back, I mean, it's the lead they gave up and lost six to five and in game four that ended up being a big difference, which was a Kimbril sort of meltdown. But real quickly for you, watching Arizona last night sort of manufacture runs, you know, with stolen bases and sacrifices. And can you win enough games over the course of October? to win a world series that way in this day and age or not? It is a little harder, sure, to do that.

But I do think it is a quality you need to have. Now, the best teams are going to have both. I think that the 2019 that's a great example that, obviously we remember the huge home runs by Soto and Rendon and Zim that were necessary for them to go all the way like they did. But think about also how many. of the clutch hit, Soto in the wildcard game, the clutch hits. In the World Series, how many times they tacked on runs with guys like Adam Eaton,

and even Rendon as well, and Soto, and Cabrera, all these guys who delivered in those kind of situations. I think you need both of them to do it. Now, can you win just with, you know, basics and sacrifices and stolen bases? It's hard in today's sport. the royals, and it's almost a decade now since they did it, they were that kind of team. Great at contact, you know, pushing the envelope and making things happen.

The dimebacks are a little bit of that style. They hit a few home runs, but not as many. It's going to be tough, and it is an interesting dynamic now in the World Series Them versus Texas, because the Rangers do hit home runs. That is a powerful lineup, and so it's a little bit of a dichotomy between the two. So, I mean, I think the dimebacks won the World Series, if they hit zero home runs, probably not. but if they hit a few in the right moments, and then more importantly than that,

if they are able to manufacture runs the way that they did last night by being aggressive on the bases, by getting the bat on the ball when they needed to, you know, I do think they have a chance if they have that balanced attack. Tell me why Bruce Boci is so good everywhere he is. You know, it's funny because you hear him speaking, he's got this deep, grovely voice, and it almost sounds like he doesn't come across as very intelligent, and that's the opposite, of course. Number one, he's really smart.

And his, certainly going back to his time in San Francisco, as you saw, willing to use relievers and pitchers in a way that I think now is becoming more common. But at the time was a little revolutionary. The whole Madison Bumgarner out of the bullpen, the idea of bringing in your top relievers earlier in a game, not just waiting for the eighth of the ninth of it. think back to the 2014 series against the nationals,

when Matt Williams was the one criticized for managing paint-by-numbers. And, well, this is our seventh inning guy. Right. It's our eighth inning guy, and it backfired. And Bochy was more having a feel for the moment and knowing who to trust. So I think there's that. He also just has this calming effect, I think. He doesn't get high, doesn't get low.

And because of what he's done in the game now, maybe this wasn't the case initially with San Francisco, but certainly when he arrived in Texas, with a team that had some big names and some star power, but obviously it had not won anything in quite some time. He brought instant credibility. Kind of the way that Dusty Baker did in a lot of ways, that you walk in the door,

and everybody knows who you are and knows the success you've had, and they're going to trust you. So the calming influence, the track record, and the fact that he really is a smart, in-game X's and O's manager. You put that all together, and I think, you know, obviously he's a Hall of Famers, and before he took this job, and now it's a slam-down. I think that he gets it.

That performance by Garcia in the series and then in game seven is just all time. It seems like, I don't know what it is, whether it's the Altovae, you know, from earlier in the series or the Garcia throughout the whole series with the RBI record and the incredible game seven. We've just seen some incredible individual performances in this postseason, right? Yeah. And what I love about this is, and we see this every year, somebody who may be, on the national stage is not well known or known at all. Bursing onto the scene like this, think of Randy Rosa Rana with the raise a few years ago, Adoli Garcia now, Catelle Marte with the Diamondbacks.

I love how this offers this grand stage for good players who may be fans of their own teams know them to now be seen on the national stage. One Soto was that guy. The world didn't know who Wontoto was. He did. The world didn't know until October of 2019. and to see the way some of these guys rise in the occasion, what Garcia did was insane in that series,

and all the credit in the world to him for coming through when the emotions were running really hot. And I'll admit, I thought, whether he was hit intentionally or not in game five, the way he handled that in the way that he instigated, really, the bench is clearing. I thought that was going to backfire on him big time, and instead he took it right back.

and completely stuck it to the Astros every chance that he got. I mean, that was one of the most, to me, remarkable individual, you know, middle finger to the other team that I've ever seen in a postseason series. I mean, he owned him by the end of that series. That was remarkable. All right. Who do you like in this World Series? First of all, I mean, you know, I'm going to watch it.

It's, you know, a tradition in October to watch a World Series since I was a kid. but this has to be a bit devastating for Fox executives. They clearly wanted a star like Harper and a team like Philadelphia in it. These are not too small markets, although Phoenix isn't a top 10 market, I don't think. It's probably top 20. But it seems to be a letdown, I think, for a lot of sports fans maybe, that we're going to see Texas, Arizona. maybe not a lot of baseball fans. I don't know.

I don't know what to make it out, but who do you like in the series? Well, to the first point, and I agree with you. The people at Fox and probably some at MLB are saying they're a brace for very low ratings, and there's going to be a narrative from people out there about, oh, nobody likes baseball anymore.

Look, they can't get good ratings unless the Dodgers or the Yankees or the Red Sox are in it. And you know what? Fine. But to everyone else out there, who cares what the national TV ratings are? If these are two really good teams with great, growing stars who maybe they aren't as well known right now as Bryce Harper and Kyle Schwabre are.

Well, maybe by the end of this series, you're going to start to know who they are, and in the coming years they will be. You know, Jose Al-Cubei, people around baseball knew who he was, but until the Astros won that World Series for the first time in 17, he wasn't a superstar that everybody on the planet knew, so maybe one of these guys turns into that. So, you know, I love it. I think it's a great matchup. I love to see the parody of the sport has now the nine champions. 10 years, 14 different teams have made the World Series in the last decade.

This is more than any other sport has. And for some reason, people view baseball as struggling the way that other sports are not. And I'd say, hang on a second. This is good for the sport when you have more teams winning, more fan bases, falling in love with their teams. I think that has long-lasting ramifications that matter way more than what the national TV ratings for the series are. So that's my point of that.

As far as the actual series, I feel like, just like in the past ones, the Texas should be favored over Arizona. The thump they have in their lineup is legit and has been all year long. And we know that Arizona doesn't really stack up in the same way. They go about it a different way. What's funny, the Dimeback's top pitchers, Merrill Kelly and Zach Gallen were not great. They didn't win one of their four games, I guess they want, against the Phillies.

Whereas the Rangers have done better with their top guys, Montgomery. Now, Max Scherzer is not Max Scher anymore. Whether it's the injury or just old age or a combination, he's not that guy. So he, to me, is not the X factor thinking, oh, they got Max, so watch out whenever he pitches. He's secondary to the staff. He was pretty bad in both of his starts. Yeah, exactly. And you could say, well, he's coming back from the injury.

Okay, yeah, that's all true. But this goes back a few years now. Really, since he left the Nats, he wasn't great with the Dodgers. he wasn't great with the Mets. He's not who he used to be, and he gives you everything he's got, and that's what we all love him, but he's not what he used to be. We all know it.

I don't know if he knows it yet or not. I think I take the Rangers in seven, but I will just tell you, I've been so impressed with Sionbacks, and they're resilient. They aren't phased by anything. They can come back, and their bullpen, the back of their bullpen has been like that,

whereas the Rangers actually was shaky. So I could absolutely, see a scenario where the dimebacks win a lot of close games by winning them late. But I think the Rangers' offense and home field advantage is a little too much, so I'll say Rangers in seven. You know, I kind of forgot this, even though I do know this, that you are from that area of the country in Arizona. Are you a Diamondbacks fan?

So they arrived in 1998, which is the year I graduate in college. So I wasn't really living there anymore. I was there that summer as an intern covering them, actually. decent amount that first year. They were my second team kind of for a while. I grew up as a Pittsburgh Pirates fan. It's been a long time since I lived there. My family, a lot of families still there.

Some of them are really into it. Some are kind of indifferent to them. I haven't felt a connection to them in a while, but I will say that watching them over the last several weeks, it's been cool to see. I've kind of gotten into it. Again, I know it's a big deal for them and for the city, which the 2001 Dymax team is still the only professional sports team never win a championship in Arizona. The Cardinals obviously haven't wanted.

The Sons have come close, but haven't the coyotes, never been close. This is a big deal for them, and it would be a big deal if they win it. So deep down, would I feel better if the dime back for one as a fan? Yeah. But the Rangers obviously have never won it either. They've been around the longest going all the way back to the senators in 1961. And while there are fans here who maybe don't ever want to root for that franchise to finally win, I think it would be pretty cool for them to win.

first time. Yeah, I don't care about, I mean, that's 1971 that they left to become. And we got our title here. Let's get a world series here. I mean, well, and not only that. So, you know, Houston ends up losing a best of seven in a series without the home team winning once to Washington in 2019 and to Texas, who was formerly Washington in 2023. A lot of people listening have no idea that the Texas Rangers, moved from Washington, D.C. as the Senators back in 1971. By the way, Phoenix, the number 11 market in the country in terms of TV size. It wasn't when I lived there, I can tell you that. No, it wasn't. No, it was like, you know, it was like that show on CBS for years, Alice, which was based out of Phoenix. You probably remember it. It was like, you know, that was the It was like a little dust town, right? It was like a little dust town. It was the beginning of like,

you know, this idea that Sunbelt, you know, I don't even know if that's considered the Sunbelt. I guess it is, but it was the move from the Rust Belt to the Sunbelt era in this country because people said... And that's exactly what my family did. We moved from Pittsburgh to Phoenix in 1978. There you go. There were a lot of others in the same thing. There you go. All right.

Thanks for doing this. Hope you're well. Again, at Mark Zuckerman on Twitter, Nat's chat podcast with Galdi, Mass, and Sports. for everything that he writes about. We'll talk about the Nats sometime before next season. Thanks for doing this. All right, thanks, Kevin. Mark Zuckerman, everybody.

Always love talking to him. One last thing before I leave, because I told you in the open, I would respond to many of you who have had a problem with me rooting for Bryce Harper, feeling the way that I do about Bryce Harper. He has become one of my favorite players in sports.

It's true. And you just don't understand it because you know that I'm a Nats fan and I'm a D.C. sports fan. And my God, how could you do that? The Phillies are, you know, the arch rival. And I just, I don't feel that way about the Phillies, nor should I feel that way about the Phillies. Anybody that feels like the Phillies are this arch rival and you're thrilled that they lost last night, it's just, it's such a reach. You are trying way too hard.

Nobody in Philadelphia thinks of the Washington Nationals as a rival team. Wouldn't even occur to a Philadelphia sports fan that the Nats are somehow a rival. So why would I feel that way about them? My team has never played in a pennant race September series against Philadelphia. has never played in a playoff series against Philadelphia. It's just so fake. Like you're just trying way too hard. Or if you feel like the Phillies are really some arch enemy rival,

I would suggest that there's a chance you've never actually rooted for a team with a real legitimate rival. That feeling of having a true rival is so. so intense. It's very emotional. And it's based on what happens on the field primarily. You know, it's not based on one team trying to block another team's fan base from buying tickets to games, which is what the Nats tried to do several years ago. We're not going to let the Philly fans take over the park because there are rivals. No, they're not. I would have sold him as many tickets as possible if I had been in charge of revenue.

It's not because Bryce Harper left and went to another team. That didn't all of a sudden create a rivalry. It's certainly not because Montreal, which is where the team came from, at one point may have had some sort of rivalry with Philadelphia in the 80s or the 70s. Rivalries are based on, you know, a history of important games. games, moments that you will never forget in big games. Controversial moments are often a big part of it. You know, the rivalry feeling is based on a longer history than the team's even been around for,

really, for the most part. You know, I guess that there are intense short-term rivalries that develop. Remember a few years ago kind of Seattle and San Francisco in that NFC West, They had some big games, NFC championship games, playoff games, big regular season games at the end of the year to decide the division, et cetera. You know, you've had some of those pop up over the years, but I just don't see where somebody could really be worked up over the Philadelphia Phillies as a Nats fan.

To me, that's sort of part and parcel to what, unfortunately, a lot of the teams in town have as a significant percentage of those that would call themselves fans. They're just kind of bandwagon jumpers. They want to feel a part of something. If they were a true rival, you'd feel it. And by the way, let me mention this.

Because I have been a fan of teams with real heated rivalries. The Cowboys were a heated, hated rival. The feelings were bloodthirst whenever those games happened. Same thing about the Giants and the Eagles at various times, but nothing like the Cowboys. If you've been a longtime Caps fan, you've felt it with the history that you have with the Pittsburgh Penguins. As a Maryland basketball fan, I felt it and there was nothing like being in that arena for a Duke game. And by the way, Maryland wasn't even Duke's chief rival.

We were a rival, but we weren't Carolina, but still the intensity of the two fan bases, of the two programs, the two, the games, and there were just so many massively important games played over a long period of time. Like, you really know what a rivalry is, and the feeling of that if you've rooted for one, a team with a legitimate rival. The Nats don't have a rival, a real traditional rival. They don't. Oh, I know what I was going to say. Sorry, I lost my train of thought. But the funny thing about rooting for the Phillies and some of you having taken exception to that is that the irony of that is that when you are really part of a fan of a team that has a true legitimate rival, Weirdly enough, you want that team to do well because the best moments in a rivalry are the head-to-head moments when both teams are at the top or near the top because that makes those games bigger.

I can remember always thinking, I want it to come down to Redskins Cowboys. I want Redskins Cowboys in the NFC title game, which by definition means I'm rooting for the Cowboys to a certain extent to win alongside of us. I can remember, you know, with Duke, it's like, God, I hope they win their Sweet 16 game. I want to rematch with them in the finals. I want to rematch with them in the final four.

I want to be on that stage again where that rivalry is highlighted and we have those feelings again. Where, yeah, so anyway, I'm not saying that, I'm rooting for the Cowboys because I'm not. As long as we suck, I want them to suck too. And I don't have the same feelings for the Cowboys anymore because it was a rivalry that was 30, 40 years. But like with a lot of things dealing with the Dan Snyder era, it faded a little bit. Maybe it'll come back.

Who knows? But anyway, to those of you that reached out in the last couple of weeks saying, man, what's wrong with you? I thought you were a Nats fan. How could you root for Trey Turner? Bryce Harper and the Phillies. Well, because I don't view them as a rival. And I actually don't understand how a guy that provided so much here, you don't understand the idea of, you know, continuing to follow that guy's career.

Sort of like, you know who, the quarterback of that team that plays in the Twin Cities. Enough of that. I'm done for the day. Back tomorrow with Tommy. You like that! You like that! Thank you.