The Koerner Office - Business Ideas and Deep Dives with Chris Koerner - Building AI Tools to Defend Against AI Tools⏐Holdco Bros Discuss! Ep. #131

Episode Date: February 14, 2025

HoldCo Bros are back! In this episode, Nik and I discuss the world of controversial self-help gurus, specifically focusing on Dan Pena. We dissect Pena's background, from his early days in Florida to his claims of a massive oil empire and his now infamous $30,000 mastermind seminars. We analyze his aggressive persona and tactics, while trying to understand what makes him successful. We question the real value of his teachings, including his QLA principles, and if his advice is actually useful or just pure motivational hype. We also discuss the difference between gurus that just motivate you versus the ones that have a concrete business plan. Finally, we explore how AI is changing things and whether businesses can be created to protect consumers from all the spam that is going to come with the new technology.Learn more about Nik here: http://linktr.ee/cofoundersnikShare your ideas with us:[e-mail]@cofounders.comTimestamps below. Enjoy!---Watch this on YouTube instead here: tkopod.co/p-ytAsk me a question on or off the show here: http://tkopod.co/p-askLearn more about me: http://tkopod.co/p-cjkLearn about my company: http://tkopod.co/p-cofFollow me on Twitter here: http://tkopod.co/p-xFree weekly business ideas newsletter: http://tkopod.co/p-nlShare this podcast: http://tkopod.co/p-allScrape small business data: http://tkopod.co/p-os---00:00 Introduction to Controversial Gurus00:58 Meet Dan Pena: The Trillion Dollar Man02:09 Dan Pena's Predictions and Background03:59 Dan Pena's Business Ventures08:32 The QLA Principles Unveiled12:55 A Personal Encounter with Dan Pena's Team17:32 Unshakable Belief in Entrepreneurship18:18 The Fyre Fest and WeWork Examples19:33 Alex Hormozi's Tactical Approach20:14 Sales Gurus and Their Strategies21:38 Dan Pena's Podcast Invitation24:36 AI and the Future of Outbound Marketing26:53 AI Tools and Consumer Defense35:15 PhD-Level Autonomous Agents36:45 Productizing AI Prompts39:20 Exploring Custom GPTs40:12 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

He founded a company called Great Western Resources, which was an oil exploration company. It sold for $450 million, 10 years later. His next big great venture is hosting masterminds to insecure dudes that want to be less insecure for $30,000. He's made $36 million selling these masterminds. What? He's known for buying a castle in Scotland for $650,000. Supposedly that castles were $32 million today. They used their own AI boys agent to raise $8 million, without ever.

speaking to an actual investor themselves. For those that listened last week, we talked about a guy named Frank Kern. That was a somewhat controversial internet marketer. The guy who taught Cardone and Tony Robbins how to be Cardone, Grant Cardone, and Tony Robbins. I got another guy for you today, Nick, and you know who he is and you love this guy. You ready? Okay. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, I love gurus, dude.

You're a guru guy. Okay, you ready? Yes. Dan Pena. Oh, tell. Tell me what you know about this guy. Oh my gosh. Because I went deep.

It's been a while since I've done research on Dan Pena. But if you've ever seen any of these Instagram videos of the guys who are like pumping up the sales guys, you know, there's like a trend right now where they want the hardcore guys. Andy Elliott's like this. Andy Elliott. You're going to have a six pack to work for me, bro. Right. Take your shirt off. Dan Pena.

Dan Pena, is it? He's 70 years old. Hardee lives in Florida and is just always spitting the most dramatic. He's actually 80 years old, believe it or not. Is he born in 45? It's very much like, just fucking do it. What does it matter? You're lying.

He wants, there's a quote of him on video. He's like, listen, this whole Bitcoin thing, I know who Satoshi is. I can't tell you. But when it's going to, when it comes out, there's going to be a lot of instability. I know. I know personally who he is. I'm like, oh my gosh, these guys. Anyways, that's Dan Pena.

I'm glad you said that because I'm going to switch up the order of what I was going to talk about. And I'm going to talk about Dan Pena's predictions of the future hosted on his own website, Danpena.co.uk. You ready for this? Still? Still. Someone needs to update the website.

If you're listening to me, please go update the website. Dan told us that Trump would win in a landslide victory this year. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Dan also told us, so no one listened. Dan told you so, no one listened. There's a YouTube video to click on and the YouTube video has been removed. Okay? Not sure what that one was. Bad link. Happens. Dan predicted that Rick Scott would be our next U.S. president.

So still holding out for that one. No, this was years ago. Still holding out. It could still happen. Hey, he's one for two. He's batting 500. That's a great batting average. That's okay.

Dan predicted that cybersecurity would be a hot deal. That's bold. A hot deal. What? You don't know what a hot deal is? It's going to be a hot deal. Yeah. That's the best prediction you could make.

It's just, it's so broad. So, hey, he's two for three, though. I mean, it's a hot deal. He's about in 66. He predicted that Iran and Syria would be flattened by the U.S. Okay. I mean, Syria's flattened. wasn't flattened by the U.S.

But okay. It's not there anymore. Hey, it's geopolitical. It's not the United States. He can't be an expert in everything. And he predicted that the greatest Mexican drug cartel boss of all time El Chapo Guzman would pay for the border wall. And he obviously did, right?

In his defense, he did. He cut a check. I'm pretty sure he, I might have been all cash. I can't remember exactly how he was paid for it. Huh. So that's Dan's predictions, but we're getting ahead of ourselves.

So I'm going to give you a little background on Dan, okay? You ready? born in Jacksonville, Florida, 1945. He threatened to kill his teacher by dropping a glass aquarium on them. And he talks about this in all his mastermind seminars. Do you know why? Do you know why? I don't know.

Because he was abused by him. But wait, there's more. Not physically abused, but he put a dunce hat on him and made him sit in the corner. Makes sense. Mm-hmm. Okay. So he threatened to kill him. He literally was.

went on a balcony over his head and tried to drop an aquarium on his head. And now he brags about it. Stable genius. He's not even telling that story as like that I'm reformed. No, he brags about it. It's literally a negotiating tactic. It's like then anybody who negotiates with him, we're like,

I've got to fucking drop an aquarium on my head. Yep. So as I tell you these stories, I want you to start thinking of some frameworks of Dan Pena that we can apply for the betterment of ourselves and society. Okay. Okay. Again, you and I never talk about this stuff. I have a story for you after this that we did not plan for. Okay. And I've got to, but wait, there's more. So how's that for a rehook? Okay. So he founded a company called Great Western Resources, which was an oil exploration company in 1982. Supposedly, now, there are very few details or, quote, proof that he actually did these things. But we do know that this was a real

company as far as what his ownership was in it or if he founded it or not no one really knows. It's sold for 450 million 10 years later. Wow. Yeah, 1986, $450 million. That's a lot of money in 1986. 96. 92. He founded in 82, sold it in 92. Oh, okay. But he was also ousted from that company. Details of blurry. Maybe 91, maybe 93. We don't know. But it was listed. This company was listed on the London Stock Exchange. That is provable. We just don't know what his ownership was in it other than what he's told us. Okay. This was given it a seminar.

One of his many mastermind seminars that cost $30,000 to attend. My favorite quote is, if I leave here with anyone liking me, I have failed. Okay. Can you dive in on that for me? Oh my gosh. It's a reverse psychology sales

tactic, right? Like you're anchoring people in the very beginning and you're getting them to buy into the Kool-Aid. Like, oh yeah, this is going to be freaking hardcore. I'm going to hate him by the end of this. And it's very good framing for the kind of seminar that he's going to put on, right? Yeah. He's establishing himself as the authority.

I'm the authority. You're going to hate me so much by the end of this because I'm going to freaking whip you into shape, right? And the people who are on the receiving end are like, yeah, this is going to be so good for me. Oh my gosh. This is, this is fantastic. Like they're just in this reciprocal feedback loop that he's setting up. So anyways, yeah. Nucase.

Keep going. So he's no. $30,000. $30,000. He's known for buying a castle in Scotland, age 39, for $650,000. Do you know what that is worth today? Or not what the castle is worth, but after inflation, $6.50, I'm going to guess, a 1.5. Extremely close.

1.4 and change. Okay. Wow. Okay. So supposedly that castle's worth $32 million today. But I just think it's funny because he, this is like his claim to fame is that he bought a castle. and that's like that's like buying like a three bedroom house in Palo Alto today like at that price

right that's a great that's a great deal at a castle he renovated the castle and that's where he holds his masterminds which he has been holding for 30 years now so after he makes a half a billion dollars he makes yeah it is that is you after he makes half a billion dollars with a bee supposedly according to him his next big great venture is hosting masterminds to insecure dudes that want to be less insecure for $30,000. He's made $36 million selling these masterminds. What? How do you know?

That is quite provable because he has two or three a year. He has 20 to 25 people per and they're $30,000 each. So assuming they're all sold out and he's had that many per year for 30 years, $36 million. But don't you want to know what framework he teaches at this mastermind, Nick? I would love to. Yes. What does he teach these people?

I'm in the business of saving all of our listeners $30,000. So you're about to get $30,000 worth of value from the trillion dollar man himself. And I'll get into that nickname in a minute. And it's the QLA principle. And it's these are actually, Nick and I'll say this, these are mind-blowing principles that you've never heard or thought of before. So are you ready for these? I'm, yes.

Number one, you ready? Reshape your mindset. Okay. It's a good place to start. Your success. It starts between your ears. I'm going to like sit for 10 minutes and let you think about that before I go to number two because your brain is between your ears very good wow you got that quick number two set big audacious

goals wow have you ever thought of that oh no like i usually think to set really small goals you know in his defense that's actually that that's a pretty good that's a pretty good thing to teach keep going it's good number three build a dream team hire smart people i don't think i've ever heard anyone say that before number four identify and acquire businesses we're just like getting straight there we go we go like Be smart. Make good decisions. Go acquire businesses. Wait, wait. What? How'd you get there? I think you skipped a few things. No, no. It's like, it's like, all right, I have no money, but I financed everything to come to this mastermind. $30,000. Oh, I'm going to get to the no money thing. Don't worry. What's step one? Step one. Got to get that grind set. Uh-huh. Written into do. Can do. I got that. Got that grind set.

Step two. Uh-huh. Set big goals. Easy. I'm going to be a billionaire. Okay, okay. All right. What's next? What do I need to do next? Step three, assemble a team. Step four, identify and buy businesses. Okay, I can't even pull forward to pay for the team. How am I identifying and buying these businesses? Step five, cash out refi, start a course. Sell it to millions of people. But wait, Nick, he does get more specific. He especially encourages first time entrepreneurs to acquire businesses. Okay. And they should be distressed ideally and underperforming. No way. This is really, this is this framework? I swear. I swear.

Yes. Okay. Okay. Number five. Okay. You're going to finance this business with no money down. How? Seller financing, obviously.

And government grants, clearly. Number six. Number six, you're going to grow the business. You're just going to grow it. You're going to say grow and it's just going to do it. Okay. That's how it works. Number seven, you're going to create a money.

money machine. I don't know why that wasn't step one. Honestly, if that was step one, it could have saved us all a lot of time. Is it a 3D printer? Is it like what the money machine is? Yep. Step 8 of 8, repeat and scale. That's it. Oh, $30,000 in three. What would he do? What would he do if you're coming to? You're like, I want to join your course, but I can't afford it. And he's like, it's $30,000. You got to figure out how to freaking make this money. Okay, okay, okay. What if I sell or finance it, Dan? There you go. Will you hold the note? Step four, will you hold the note?

Are you going to sell or finance it or what? No, no, no, that's not what this means. That's not what this means. But you're saying it's a $30,000 investment in my future, right? Like it's going to set me up for success? Absolutely. Perfect. Sell or finance it, Dan.

Do you know why he refers to himself as the trillion dollar man? I don't know. Because people that have been through his course have created a trillion dollars worth of value before or after they went through the course. before or after either one either one imagine how much value jk rowling created by selling hundreds of millions of copies of harry potter think about it think about all the money that those readers made wait did jk rowling go through it no i'm just saying like that framework of like if you made money if you shook my hand once and then you made a million dollars i created a million dollars worth of value is there anybody out there

who's like admitted to going through Dan Pena's mastermind? Yeah, there are several YouTube videos of guys that went through it and make fun of the entire thing. It's quite hilarious. Really? In fact, one guy started convulsing and urinated on himself and threw up on himself during the seminar and Dan Pena made fun of him the whole time as it was happening from the stage. So that's pretty funny.

Yep. I mean, in Dan's defense, what's he supposed to do? Call a medic. I don't know. So what good can we take from these principles? in all seriousness. What is there to learn from? Like, why is he successful, Nick? Well, before we get into that, I have a story for you. Okay. So I sold a business a few years ago. And the people that were really interested in this business were private equity people.

I got a lot of inquiries, a lot of people reaching out, right? It was a good business. We had grown it. It was profitable. It was great. We were exiting. One of the groups that reached out was Dan Panias group. And so they said, I think I remember this. Yeah, before the call, I get, it wasn't even a SIM, right? Because like the SIM is what the seller would send them. Explain what a SIM is. So a SIM, CIM, confidential information memorandum. Usually it's what sellers provide to prospective buyers to tell them about their business. They're how long the business has been around here. The key customers is how much money we make. These are the contract. Like just everything about your business that a buyer would want to know initially. And then you hop on a call and you kind of dive into more. Well, they sent me. like a sim for their investment team. And front and center on their investment team was Dan Pena. Right.

So this is like Dan Pena's fund. And I looking back, I'm like, I don't know if they were just, if he was just being used as like, hey, this media personality. He might not have had anything to do with it. Well, I think he had something to do with it. But I don't know if it was his money or if it was like, I'll lend you my likeness and you can leverage that. Right. Anyways. So I get that.

And I'm like, I was going to not take the meeting anyways, but I'm like, Dan Pani is involved. I got to take that meeting. bro. And this is after you had been down like the Instagram Reels, Dan Payne your rabbit hole. And we've been sending him back and forth. Yeah, I was calling you. I called you about this. Because I was so excited. I'm like, Dan Payne. So I take the meeting with their team. Dan, Dan wasn't on. Probably be better if I was like, Dan Pania was on, but he wasn't on. I want you to guess how the negotiations went. It was a joke. I don't know. They went exactly like you would think a Dan Pania negotiation would go. Hey, tell us about your business. Well, we're doing about $6 million in Top line. One.

1.5 million in bottom line market comps are three to five times so we're looking between five and eight million dollars and of a purchase price you're not going to get that like initially out of the gate you're not going to get that like what yeah you're not going to get market's not going to pay that here's what we're willing to offer a million dollars financed over X period of time and seriously and you stay on but you can earn an additional five minutes million dollars if you grow this business to a million dollar business and with dan's brand and with our backing and i was like is this for real is this like just like that i said on the call i'm like this this is this is for real they're like are you kidding me have you seen what dan's done like and that's

that's how this conversation it was the weirdest conversation they thought they could just come in bull in a china shop and i'm sure that they do buy businesses like that i'm sure there are some idiots out there who are like okay yeah i guess i'll sell but i was like yeah it went exactly like i would have thought a Dan Payne Hillhead negotiation strategy would have gone. It was so dumb. And tell us what that ended up selling for? Well, I can't tell you the exact number, but it sold for the range that I, that I named in the, in the beginning. And it didn't take all that long. No, it sold really, it was a great business. It sold really quick. Yeah. So some of these, some of these guys is like, it's just a spray and prey kind of tactic. What can we take from Dan Pena? I mean, I think there's a

couple things. I think the reason I'm so obsessed with gurus is because I'm infatuated by this level of confidence that is irrational because I don't have it. I just don't have it. You have a lot more confidence than me, but you know, but you are nowhere near that level, right? It's these guys who have like this God level complex and they are so confident that reasonable people like us look at them and say what he's saying sounds unbelievable but he's so confident he surely can't be lying about it right it's not a lie if you believe it and in many that's what george constance has said in many instances though that fundamental belief and drive has created value for them like a perfect example of this jesse tinsley he texted me like two weeks ago i'm going to buy tictock ho ho ho

And I'm like, you just bought bench. TikTok's like a $20 billion company. And then there was like he just wills it into existence. Somehow he gets a meeting with Mr. Beast. He's convinced Mr. Beast to help him buy. Like he's literally in talks. I mean, I haven't seen the talks, but supposedly he's in talks with the U.S. government about buying TikTok because he just spoke it into existence.

So I am infatuated by these people who have an unshakable belief in themselves. Many of these gurus use it for evil, right? because they're just like trying to extract as much value out of people. But it's also a very strong trait in some of the best founders and entrepreneurs, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk, like these guys that have just gone on to do great things, this like self-belief that is unshakable. And you know what? Like you only have to be right once.

Like you could make these bold audacious claims and be wrong every time. And then once you're right, that really carries more weight than any of the wrong predictions that you had in yourself or what you were building. Like Elon Musk. he went and he just said, all right, I sold this company. I'm going to buy a castle in Scotland. Like there's tangible proof that he can point to to say like, yeah, I'm successful. I got a castle.

So anyways, I think the unshakable belief is something I admire and I'm both terrified of at the same time. It's true. And some of these people. It's like the Fire Fest guy. Yeah. Dude, that's a perfect example. Because so many of us fake it until we make it. We're like, no, I'm going to do it.

Adam Newman. We work. Adam Newman. Made out like a bandit. Until the day he dies, he could raise as much money as he'd ever want, despite his history, because of that unshakable confidence. Elon Musk. You've read his biography. How many times did he promise a rocket was going to take off or that we can have full self-driving or we're going to have robots on, like, whatever it is, he's promised all these things.

And while he may not have hit every single timeline, look at what he's accomplished. Like, he's still able to point to some of these things. So, again, it's a trait that I both fear and in admiration. You know the big differences because like Alex Bromosey makes a lot, if not most of his money from conferences. A lot of people don't know that. Okay. So like they're both making millions of dollars doing the same thing.

But what makes one of them, I don't want to call him a fraud because I don't want to get sued, but he has a poor reputation. And the other one, Alex Romozy arguably has a great reputation, despite the fact that he's making millions of dollars selling courses and masterminds and high ticket X, Y, or Z. in my opinion it's because one of them is very specific Alex Hormozie he's written books his books are extremely tactical you're going to go to meta ads manager you're going to click on this you're going to use advantage plus you can use broad targeting don't tell meta what your audience is and like it's very specific granular because he's sat down at a desk for 18 hours straight and done all these things right whereas yeah the other guy is just talking like platitudes that are super broad and high level. Yeah, it's the difference between the steak and the sizzle, right? Like, or the, you know, the bark and the bite. They both are salesmen. They both talk a big game. They both are like, I can change your life, blah, blah, but I think one of them delivers more tangibly for the target

audience that they have. So video is cool, but you know what's better? Longform audio via podcast and my newsletter. TKO pod.com. Go there to subscribe for free to my newsletter. It's one email a week, very tactical. And then go to my audio podcast, three episodes a week, stuff like this. You're going to love it all free no sleazy sales bitch tkopod.com a lot of those sales gurus strike me as very motivational hey this is the kick in the pants that you need hey oh just do it just freaking grow up and do it you're doing a little baby and that's needed for many people but bromozy is very tactical it's like yes you're going to get the motivational thing but if you go and you pay for his course or you go and you buy his book it's also like oh that's a really good strategy oh holy crap

like that you can scale a business this way. So like I agree with you. It's it's in the product offering itself. And I think that that goes for any entrepreneur. You've got to be good at sales, but you've got to make sure that what you're selling is actually backed up by a good product. Otherwise, you're going to get the first couple sales and then you're constantly going to need to be churning through people. Like there's a reason that Dan Pena puts out content that is divisive or controversial. It's because he needs his name out there enough in order for people, to keep coming to his courses, whereas Alex isn't necessarily putting out the controversial stuff. The word of mouth from people who have gone to his conferences or the word of mouth

from people who are sharing his posts because of the goodwill is really doing the work, the legwork for him. And that's the type of business that you want as an entrepreneur. You want the goodwill to be doing the legwork. You don't want to just be Nick Huber is an example. Like I worry about following down sort of this pain path, right? It's like, well, I got views. I got clicks.

But is that the best way? Yeah. It is for him right now. Yeah. You ready for the grand finale of this segment for Rutaibo on it? Absolutely. Yeah. So during this deep dive, I learned that Dan Penae will basically go on any podcast that asked him. And so I emailed his publicist and invited him on the Holt Cobro's podcast segment.

And we. I'm so excited. I don't have a yes yet, but I'm confident I can get a yes. And we will have him on here and ask him all kinds of hairy questions. At least you will. Yes. You like the awkward stuff and I don't. Look, if he's generous enough to come on and give us his time, I'm not going to be rude to him.

No, not rude. I'm just talking about like hard-hitting questions. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. I will ask him things and he'll probably, I don't know. A lot of those guys, like Donald Trump's like this, he can take a good ribbing. Like, he's very conversational. But if he feels like you're attacking him and adversarial, that's when he's going to start just like hitting back on things, right? So, yeah.

I would be curious to see what he's, what like Dan is like, an. conversational setting. Well, I think one of the questions needs to be, listen, and you can use the Trump tactic, a lot of people are saying, and they are on the internet, a lot of people are saying that you don't have $500 million, that you never sold this, but that you didn't have much ownership in this business at all. In fact, where you made most of your money is the $3.3 million lawsuit settlement you got for wrongful termination. A lot of people say that. Do you have any hard proof, a document, any sort of evidence? Because this was pre-internet that you actually made all this money to prove the haters wrong. And he's probably going to say, I don't care about the

haters. He's probably going to like talk around it. I'd be very curious to hear his answer to that. The second question is, if you're so successful in business, why do you make all of your money selling courses? Why aren't you starting other businesses? See what he says there. I probably wouldn't ask them those direct questions. I guess I'll have to do it. I would ask him things like, because it's so foreign to me, how do you reconcile like not having the things that you say you're having while you're doing it, even though you've eventually achieved it, right? It's like it's the fake until you make it on steroids where you're projecting this

ultra successful person. But if somebody came in and actually audited you, they would look at it, sit down and look at it and be like, eh, it's actually not true. However, you needed that level of confidence. Like how did, how did you, I don't know, I think he, I know, I'm not sure he's been divorced. I think he might be. I think he's been married the whole time to the same woman.

Right, right, right. So I would ask him, I'd be like, does your wife look at you and like damn that's not true or like how does that conversation go like that's i would be very curious about that particular piece of it because i could never do that i would i'd never be able to live with myself but i'm sure he's got his like his way of convincing himself that it's fine so anyways and we're going to have to pay a lot of money to mohamma to edit that episode because he can be he can be a little brash that's going to be self money all right All right, AI idea of the week.

I was listening to your conversation with James Camp, where you guys are talking about AI. And I really enjoyed it. I thought it was like an awesome conversation. But one of the things that popped into my mind as I was listening to it was, if AI is going to make it so much easier for us to do outbound, to like reach out to people and have agents that are having conversations, it's probably going to be a hellscape for you, the consumer in the future. You're just constantly going to be getting inbound, inbound, inbound. but like people asking you for things. And so I started thinking about it, not from the business perspective of going outbound and generating,

but from the consumer's perspective and being inbound and filtering. Do you think that there's a space for AI products to be built that assign value to information that's coming in? Or that interact with the inbound such that you don't actually have to interact with them? My episode of James Camp was split into two episodes. Did you listen to both of them or just one? Did you hear this segment where we talked about AI calling, AI receiving? Is that what you're referring to?

Yeah. And then you talked about agents just having conversations with agents. Yeah, yeah. But this is what I'm getting at is like I think that there's a lot of focus right now on business owners. It's like, oh, you can develop your own agent. This is how you train them. This is how you do it. So it's almost like the AI business is a services business to help business owners get up to speed on AI.

Like I did this tweet. I asked, who's making real money with AI right now? There were some decent answers. Like, there were some fine answers. But mostly what I'm seeing is people are making money off of AI by selling services educating on AI. Right? Like, hey, I can help you automate something or I can help you implement something.

Or I can help you understand something. Time saving services. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like they're consulting services essentially on educating you on how to use AI. And those are great services. But like actually having AI in your business, there are only a few examples. One of them was answering calls after hours and, and logging them into the CRM.

I thought that was great because you can't always have people on call. One idea that I really like is this Crush the Memory Stick that Eric Kaiser has. He's going to come on the podcast and talk about that. But by and large, the main use cases right now for AI are time savings and some automation, right? Anyways, but we're largely thinking out from the business owner's perspective because we are business owners. But I started thinking about it from the consumer's perspective. And I don't have an answer, but I wanted to brainstorm with you on this. Like, how could you create a business around educating the end consumer?

People like you and I. And when I say you and I, I mean just regular people on how to create their own agents so that these agents can become time savings for them, so that they can become an agent that will have a conversation with another agent, right? Like, how do you get them to understand what information is needed to train these agents and these models? How do you get them to understand what they're willing to assign to an agent versus what they're not willing to assign to an agent? Because like I said, it's going to be kind of a hellscape if all of a sudden agents can be reaching out to us all day. There's got to be like the defense from the other side that is answering these agent queries. I look at this a lot like I think about cybersecurity, like in the 80s and 90s.

I feel like there's always we're going to oversimplify it and call the good guys and the bad guys. since the dawn of time there's been a push pull between the good guys and the bad guys. Let's talk about cybersecurity. Computers come out. The internet comes out. The bad guys, quote, were the party that was the most sophisticated at the time. Right. So these early internet companies kept getting hacked because, frankly, randos on the internet

that knew more about how to hack, they knew more about it than the companies. And of course, because the founders of the companies, they knew how to build a business, how to market a business. they didn't know how to protect their business against cyber threats, right? But then as more time goes on, then cybersecurity becomes like Dan Pena, it's going to be a hot thing, right? Cybersecurity becomes more of a hot thing. McAfee comes along. The bad guys start helping the good guys, so to speak, and companies are better protected against bad actors around the world.

Okay, so that push pull becomes a little more evenly weighted. There will always be hackers. There will always be people defending against hackers. But who's first, right? I look at it the same way. In this sense, the marketers and the business guys are first. We're first, right? So consumers are going to be getting spammed first from people like me with robocalls and emails

and text until, you know, enough months or years down the line when the consumers have enough tools to defend themselves against the marketers and the spammers like me and you. So I just think we're so early on in this that, yeah, for a while, it's going to be really annoying. And I'm also a consumer and it's going to be annoying for me. So what you're saying, I think, is there's an opportunity to create defense against the dark arts, right? Defense against all the marketers out there that are going to use AI to spam them with ads and sales pitches at all times.

Well, and the reason I'm talking to you about it in particular is because who are going to be the best people to think up ways to stop this stuff from happening? It's the same people who are going to think up ways to do this stuff, right? Like it's, if you're sitting there and you're like, okay, this is exactly how I'm going and I'm scraping data. This is exactly how I'm going and identifying who a good lead is. You can think of the other side of the equation and think, okay, if I'm getting this information from here,

how would I make sure my information is not included on this? So in my mind, the supplier and the, I don't even know what the right word is, but you're like the pharmaceutical companies, not pharmaceutical companies. You're selling the disease and you're selling the cure. Oh, invent the disease, sell the cure. Yeah. There it is. There it is.

Yeah, yeah. So that's more why I'm bringing it up is because if you're already going through the thought process of thinking, how can I automate XYZ things? I think there's also the other side of the equation of like, how do I stop those XYZ thing from automating to me? And then in that, is there something? How can I detect like a caller that's AI prematurely? So they don't waste my time. Right? Yeah, exactly. Because I think those solutions exist for like text and for things that were generated by chat, GPT. Chat GPD has their own product for like educators to use to make sure the essays weren't written by chat GPD. And then there's a whole ton of rappers that do the same thing. I was actually

doing research on this before this podcast. It's still insanely early. And I don't think that these mechanisms exist for voice or for video or for other types of AI generated nonsense out there. Like on Instagram, there's people copying my ideas that are using what is it, Hey Gen. What the video avatar creator. I don't get talking about, but yeah. They're using AI tools to have these AI people talk about business ideas on Instagram. And they talk like this and it's robotic.

And if you look closely at their lips, it doesn't match. And you can, like if you're looking for it, you can tell it's AI. But then I go look in the comments and nobody, not one comment is like, this is lame. This is AI. This is like nobody knows. They don't know. It's certainly. And on Instagram, when you go to post a reel, there's a toggle button there that says like

AI. that this is AI. And who would ever use that? Why would you toggle that? Why isn't Instagram detecting it? Should they? There was news about a month ago about meta creating AI avatars of people. Did you see that? No, I didn't. Oh, man. Let me talk about that real quick. Because this is really interesting. We talked about frameworks with AI last week. And I talked about kind of my framework as I'm looking at businesses. But I think I think there's opportunity to go the opposite way. like I was talking to somebody about content. Right now in content, very popular to like, quick, get to the point.

Zip, zap, zip, zoom, camera angles, changes, whatever. But then you can go the opposite way and like, all right, I'm going to talk a little slower. It's going to be a little longer video. And you're essentially, you know, zinging when everyone else is zagging. So there are probably businesses like that where everyone's thinking, oh, AI, AI, AI, I'm going to go the opposite way. And it may not be as big of a market. But it could be a really great business. Yeah.

So Neta created these AI avatars, basically influencers. And there's a little, there's a little disclaimer on the profile that's like, I'm AI, but it's hard to see. So this was in a Mashable article. One of them was called Live. And her profile says, proud black queer mama of two and truth teller, heart emoji, rainbow emoji, your realist source for life's up and downs. Let's chat.

And then all of the pictures she posts on Instagram are all AI. generated. She's not a real person. Her face. It's all AI generated. And they shut it down after like 48 hours. There was another guy, Grandpa Brian, a black retired businessman and Carter, a dating coach. The discovery of these profiles led to an outroar on Twitter, Blue Sky, and meta-owned threads. There was 28 AI profiles and it ended up deleting all of them because of the outlash. Backlash. Were there videos or were these just like Facebook pages? There were Instagram and Facebook pages. Jeez Louise.

And you can message them. They posted stuff. They would reply to your comments. And it's all fake. Maybe that's a part of it is like there's a package you could help someone. You could sell to somebody to help create their own personal assistant. And you use something like, gosh, what was the software you used that tracked everything across your Mac?

Oh, rewind. Rewind. And it's like, all right, record your conversations for two weeks. And then we will take that data, put it into a system. and create your digital assistant. And maybe it's longer than two weeks. I don't know. Then what spits out as a digital agent that works on your behalf,

that's your assistant. Did you hear about that startup called Bordy that raised $8 million with AI? No. Is that the one you posted about? Yeah. They have this networking feature where AI will call you and like ask you questions. Like, my name's Nick.

I live in Boise. This is what I do. And it's like, hey, I know just the guy for you. And they'll connect you with real people. It's an AI voice engine. And so they use their own product to raise $8 million without ever speaking to an actual investor themselves. Oh, my gosh, really?

Major asterisk. Like, I guarantee you they didn't actually sign the docs and accept the wire before it like, I'm sure it was just like, yeah, we'll invest $8 million. We raised $8 million. You know, it is more of like a verbal thing. But still, pretty crazy what we're what we're getting to. Yeah. Okay.

I've been doing this thought exercise that I think would be really interesting. AI is just advancing so fast that by the end of the year, supposedly, we're going to have PhD-level autonomous agents working on our behalf, supposedly. That's the thought. What I would do, if I was anybody, I tried to do this yesterday. I'm trying to do it today as well. I just spend an hour and think, what would I do with somebody who had a PhD level of education that would work autonomously?

What would that, like, it could be your current business. It could be a business that you want to start. But what would that do? What would that free up and start thinking about how you would actually use them, even mapping out the processes? Because you know this. There's only a short window of time for you to take advantage of these arbitrages. Everybody's going to catch up at some point. But when they first come out, when they're finally available, if that's when you start thinking about how you're going to use them, what tasks you're going to give them, how they're going to communicate back to you, what they're going to do, what the metrics of success are, how you're going to communicate to them, when you check in on them.

like all of those things. If that's the first time you're thinking about it, then you're going to be three to six months behind people who are like you and I thinking about it today. And we are going to be able to exploit the opportunities in that short window of time. And it is. It's going to be a very short window of time. So I would be thinking about like, okay, what would I do with somebody with a PhD right now?

What would you do? How would you use them? Either to start a business or grow your business or whatever. Here's another framework that goes in line with that. I completely agree with that. go to your to your chat GPD thread and ask it to tell you what all your your prompts have been. I just did this. What are all my prompts in this thread?

They're there. Okay, cool. I remember. Now, start thinking of how can you productize your prompts? Because I was just looking at all these AI tools to prepare for this. And you know, my favorite meme is the format of the astronaut out in space looking at Earth. Oh, yeah. And another astronaut behind him with a gun pointed his head.

And it says always has been. Always has been. Yes. So there's one that I saw. and he was looking at the earth and the earth was like split open and it was cake. You know, like, is it cake? And the astroar and says, wait, is it all cake? And he says, always has been.

Okay. So I'm looking at, I know, I'm looking at these thousands of AI tools and they're, they're all rappers. They're all chat GPT wrappers. And really, if you boil it down even more, they're all prompts. It's all prompts. Productize your prompts. So go ask chat GPT what your prompts have been or go scroll and look at what you. your prompts have been and then think, how can I convert that prompt to an agent or how can I

convert that prompt to an app or to a tool, a product or a service? I was looking at this AI tool and they're getting thousands of downloads per month. It's an iPhone app. It's called sugar-free. And all you do is you take a picture of an ingredient panel and you upload it and it's like, oh yeah, this random ingredient here, that's actually sugar. Like it's carbs, but it turns to sugar. like these things that you've never heard of you can't pronounce that sugar that sugar that sugar that's literally one prompt that's it i was going to ask you so i like i've been spending a ton of time on prompt base i thought it was super fascinating and i've been taking notes of like hey what are all the prompts that i'm looking for that are not currently on prompt base and like i could make those my own prompts and sell

them on prompt base i think that's one easy way to do that but these prompts are cheap they're like between a dollar and five dollars maybe they're 20 dollars if they're like very hyper specific but whatever, but they're cheap. When you go to buy it, it's like, you'll get 50 free credits with this purchase. Why would I need any credits? If they're giving me the prompt, don't I just put that into my own Chad GPT? Or do I have to continually pay for the credit usage? Is it like a Razor Blade Razors model? I don't know. I've never used prompt base. I've never bought anything from it. Okay. I may have to buy something just to see. So take your prompt. You can sell it, cool, or you can turn it into an app because it's just like Chad GPT can do all of the.

these things that these apps getting millions of downloads are doing. Doesn't matter. It's 100% true. And like, I've started getting way more into GPTs. How like how many custom GPs do you have? Not a lot. Three or four. Three or four. I met like three. And it takes a long time to set them up. And I was talking to Zach today. And he was like, um, actually, that's not the best use case for GPTs. I'm like, really? And he starts telling me that, you know, what's actually a better use case for them and how to use them. So I still think there's so many ways that we don't even know the best way to use this stuff. And it's because we can't spend 20 hours a day trying to figure it out.

Zach knows a lot more than I do about that. He's doing some cool stuff, man. He was at my house on Sunday. Was he? Yeah, we had him over for breakfast. They were driving to Atlanta. Oh, sweet. No.

Hot Atlanta. That's right. All right. Let's call it. That's it. All right. What did you think? Please share it with a friend and we'll see you next time on the Kerner office.