The Koerner Office - Business Ideas and Deep Dives with Chris Koerner - How I Cloned Two Stupid Simple Apps to Make $30M⏐Ep. #256

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

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The barrier's entry is a lot lower and to build a business rate, making 10 grand a month, which is life changing for 99% of people in the world. I went to a website, kind of like a biz buy selling. There was a company for sale. And they weren't for sale for like 200 grand. And that's kind of one of my sales sets is researching and copying. I was like, you know what? I think I can build something similar to this.

Didn't have a mentor, didn't have a rich dad or anything. So I'm just learning on the fly on my own. And within two or three months, that business was doing like $30, $40, $50. We were probably doing a million a year. I just want to emphasize how valuable it is to go window shopping on bizbysell.com or whatever website. You can learn so much. It costs nothing. Sell it before you have it. Ain't know so that.

So I just came across this guy on Twitter. His name is Will Cannon. You may remember him from my episode on cold emailing here recently. Will is an expert in scraping and selling leads. And he's also an expert in cloning other software businesses. He's a serial entrepreneur, but specifically he's built two software businesses doing millions of dollars a year. He's a bootstrapper. He didn't grow up rich.

It's very scrappy. And he has an amazing story. So if you've ever been interested in starting a software business and you don't know how to code and you'd like to just copy what works, this is the episode for you. So my kind of story is grew up poor, a single parent hassle, mom and dad, dad divorced when I was one year old. Dad left. Never saw him again to this day.

We grew up with little, just me and my mom, roof, carpeted ahead, food in the mouth, but didn't have, weren't able to have a nice thing. So ever since I was a kid, I was like, okay, lemonade stand. And I remember in high school, it was like CD burners just first came out. So I was like, oh, my God, I was Napster and Limeware. So I was like, my friend got a computer with like a CD burner. I was like, you can make your own CD. This is amazing.

And so I was like, I would sell CDs at school, right? I'd have like a book late and I'd say, hey, write down your 10 or 12 favorite songs. They'd write them down. I'd go, oh, my download all the songs. I'd burn them to a CD. I'd sell the CDs for 10, 20 bucks a CD and I'd make 100 bucks a week or whatever it was. And at the time, I was like, this is amazing. So I've always been an entrepreneur from the start.

had a couple jobs, did work at Sears, selling warranties to people that bought appliances, worked in a collection agency. So started working at 16 full time. Right out of high school, me and my then girlfriend, who's now my wife, I said, like, what are you going to do? She says, I'm going to get my real estate license. I'm going to get to real estate. I said, okay, I'll just get into real estate too. Let's do it. And we didn't know, but timing was amazing because this was during like subprime mortgage, boom, right before the crisis. So got into that, got a license, started working for a company. First month of work for a company selling mortgages, I made that company $100,000 and I got paid $10,000. I thought I was the richest person on her.

It's like, my life has changed forever. Like, this is amazing. Like, I'm going to work here forever. One day I'm sitting there. I get up to use the bathroom. I get back to my guest and he goes, hey, where were you? I said, I was using the bathroom. He said, no, no, no, no, no, you need to be on the box. It was like, and, and I was like, I just made you $100,000. last month. Like, I know, I've looked at the numbers. Like, I made you so much. And like, you're like on me like that. And so, and at that time, they were like, the owners, they were like crazy. They had every Rolls Royce, every Lamborghini, every everything. And so it was like, it was like, well, I want the 100 Ket. I don't want the 10 Ket. So I was like, you know, I was like,

I called her up and she had her license. She was working for a different Worry's company. I said, hey, what if we just started our own like, Warriors company? And she's like, let's do it. Let's, like, let's do it. I had a broker license. So actually, I could take the next step. And so that, that was my last day. I called him, and left in the voicemail and said, hey, I'm done. We started our own mortgage company. And at that time, we didn't have enough money for an apartment and

an office because we were kind of just starting. You got a pick. We got a pick. So we started the mortgage company out of the apartment to start and then we started scaling it. We're like, hey, we need employees, but employees aren't going to come to our house. We got to get an office. So we got an office, but we didn't have, it was struggling

the first few months. It wasn't easy to have built it up. So we got an office and didn't have enough money for both and we said, you know what, we're going to just live in the office. So we're going to get an air mattress when the employees leave for the day, we'll pop out the air mattress and we're going to sleep in this office. And so that was a really difficult time, but it was exciting though because I'm young. I'm in my early 20s. I'm like, hey, let's build this. So started building it up and eventually got enough money for, you know, but the story there, which is crazy is showered in a bucket in the bathroom of our office. We had a bathroom in the

office, stood in a bucket. Jerry Rigged the handheld shower device to the office bathroom. Wow. This was with my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife, we built everything together. And so just crazy story coming from nothing. And then we started making everything, started making so much money. We couldn't believe it. We were like, what, you know, this mortgage boom time. So how are you finding customers? How were you finding all your mortgage customers? Straight cold calling. Just boiler room. We had boiler room. Literally at that time, people were you know, the housing prices were going crazy.

You could, anyone could get a loan. So you could get a loan. Yeah, yeah. Whatever. Any, anyone, you call someone up. If they had a pulse, they were getting alone. Yeah. Anyone was getting alone.

Hey, I've seen the big short. I'm an expert. Okay, well. So, yeah, I mean, really, we were just literally just cold call. Homeowners that meet certain criteria, we're calling them, hey, do you need 100K, do you need 200K? You have all this equity, you know, and they were, everyone wanted a new car.

Everyone wanted a new remodel, whatever it was. So, you know, it was difficult. It was an easy sale. It was product market fit. Timing. This is what I've learned going back. It's like timing is so important. So bought four houses, bought a bunch of cars, went crazy, and boom, 2008 happened. And literally went from, we were on top of the world back to nothing. I mean, back to nothing. I mean, within a matter of months, we went for making so much to basically nothing. And we were like, we were done. We were upside down on four houses that all went down.

down in value 40, 50%. It was really bad. It was four foreclosures. It was my cars repossessed. My prize possession of time was my S-class Mercedes, which I loved as a kid. Boom, watch the tow truck take it away. It was a really, really, really hard time. And we were like, hey, we just got to go get regular jobs.

Like, we're screwed. And so how this leads to kind of the story, which is at that time, when we were building the mortgage company, we're hiring a bunch of loan officers. And to hire those loan officers, we were buying lists of realtors and loan officers in California, and we were cold emailing those loan officers with a pitch to try to get them to come in an interview and come on our team. And so I had a bunch of lists.

I had a list of realtors. I had a list of loan officers. I had these lists. And I had people in my office adjacent offices to me at the time that were like, hey, he had that list of realtors. I'll say, yeah, I'll sell it to you. I'll give me 100 bucks or whatever. So it was like, it wasn't a big deal,

but I was like, okay, there could be something here. So I went to a website. Were you just buying this from other? people or were you scraping them yourself? Yeah, buying from other people. Just buying from website. Your middleman. Yeah.

So I went to a website. I saw on a website called, I think it was called BizBen. It's kind of like a biz buy sell. It could be still available today. I saw on a website that there was a company called list guy.com for sale. And all that company could be still in business today. And all that company did was sell lists. He had a realtor list.

They had a dentist list. They had a chiropractor list. Every industry broken down. There's a lot. And there's a lot of websites. to do this. I bought from a lot of them. Right. So I thought in my head, hey, I already have a couple of these lists. I'd have some internet marketing knowledge-ish. Maybe I can buy and acquire others.

Maybe I can find some more and I can build a website like it. So I saw that business was for sale and they were doing, I think, I want to say like $10,000 a month in revenue or something like that. And they were for sale for like 200 grand or something like something in this range. Wow. And I thought I think I may have signed in Indiana. I don't remember, but I kind of inquired. I started digging a little bit. And that's kind of one of my. My sales sets is researching and copying, if you will. It's fun, too. It's so much fun.

I love it. So I dig a little bit, and I was like, you know what? I think I can build something similar to this. And let's see where it goes. If it goes nowhere, we're going to get regular jobs. We're already applying me and my wife regular jobs. We're just like, hey, this doesn't work. Can I side note you for a minute?

Yeah. I just want to emphasize how valuable it is to go window shopping on bizbysell.com or whatever website and dig into businesses. Like, whether you want to buy it or not, you can learn so much. much digging into their due diligence stocks. It costs nothing. I'm not suggesting anyone like breaks NDAs or does something unethical or steals proprietary info, but you can just learn. I remember I did the same thing. I was shopping on biz by sale and I saw this company that it enabled people to buy shipping like e-commerce brands to pay for shipping with crypto. It was like they were doing 300,000 a year

and they were selling for like 600,000 a year. And I just thought interesting. Like I could copy this. I have a list of ecom brands. Like, they only have like half a percent of the market. Like, it just gets your gears turning, you know? 100%. Yeah. I mean, you can figure out what margins are in general for a certain industry. You can figure out where they acquire customers.

If they have more detailed analytics, you can find out what channels are more profitable for them. I mean, there's so much you can find out. I wasn't maybe as in depth about it at the time. I just thought, hey, I have some lists. This guy has lists. He's making some money. I think I could do it.

So we started that. So we started a website. It was called the data supplier. So we started that website and we're like, hey, we're going to buy a bunch of other lists. So we had a couple already. We're going to buy a bunch of others. And we're going to package things based on industry. And we're going to sell these lists.

And I want to say within a short handful of months, maybe two or three months, that business was doing like $30, $40, $50. It was just out of nowhere. How are you finding customers? Again, like at that time, it was kind of a gray hat SEO. So we were raking number one. email lists, realtor email list, every email list thing you can think of.

We started ranking number one in no time from our on the borderline, Greyhead SEO at the time. And then we were cold emailing people. So we were cold emailing businesses. I don't think we were cold calling at that point. We're just cold emailing and doing SEO. And that just started blowing up.

And so we were like, okay, we're on to something. We don't have to give a good job. This is amazing. And so that kind of parlayed into the agency. So that's a backstory of how we started to agency. That kind of parlayed into the agency that we had, which basically worked with so many customers.

So it's unfortunate 500, but a lot of them were small and medium size. They needed a clean list of their ideal prospects. We provided that. And yeah, that led to that kind of 10-year run-ish of being kind of self-employed and kind of just selling B2B data

and doing kind of cold email and cold calling stuff. Oh, man. That's amazing. So when you say you were working a ton of hours a week, you were basically just like manually scraping, manually putting together these CSVs, emailing people. And the whole time you're thinking,

this needs to be automated, this needs to be a SaaS, but it's hard. Like, it's hard to get over that hump, especially when you're making money. Like, you have to make a significant time and money investment to get there. Then when you get there, you don't know that it's going to work. You know, maybe people want that personal touch, right? What was the tipping point where you were like, all right, we're done with this agency model. We're going to go full SaaS. Did something happen to make you really make that decision for good?

Yeah. So, I mean, I knew it, I knew it the whole time because I remember in 2000, I want to say 11 or 12. So I started updating 2017, but five, six years prior, I knew that that's where I wanted to go. There was a site called, I think it was called Elance. So it's kind of like, there was like, I think that the time, yeah, I used to use it. It was Freelancer. They were freelancer and Elance. I think they merged or something.

Yeah, so Elant. So I found a team on Elance to build a first MVP of what I thought was going to be my first platform that was going to do that. I think it was called sales leads or sales leads plus or something like that. It was, we had the domain, you're ready to go. We paid them and they just took our money. They just literally took our money, didn't build a thing, couldn't even get in contact with them, couldn't get support, didn't even get our money back. It left such a bad taste in my mouth.

And I was like, look, we're making good money. It's hard work. It's a lot of, you know, but it's left the same time. We can have a life together. We can, you know, figure things out. Yeah, so it left the bad taste in my mouth. And it took another five years, which I'm looking back, oh, my gosh, if I ought to start it then. But you never know, but it took another five years for me to kind of get the guts up to say, you know what?

Let's try it again. Let's try it again. So I remember trying it again because the other one was going to be B2B and B2C data. At the time there was a company called Sales Genie owned by Info USA. They had both B2B and BNC. I remember. And so the second time around, I was like, no, no, no, it's just B2B. Let's focus on B2B, let's get away from the B2C.

Yeah, we just took time for us for me to want to pull the trigger. Obviously, that five or six years, we accumulated a lot more money, we had a lot more assets. So it was a little bit easier of a swing. Hey, this doesn't go well. It's not, doesn't wipe out everything we have. that's kind of what happened. And it was, it was also just the hours of just like, hey, I remember like Sunday nights, I was like, I had 100 email.

So I was like, I'm to draft everything before Monday morning. I was up late at night. I'm like, this is just not the life for me. So I was like, at one point, I was like, you know what? You got to just try again and then we tried again. Necessity is the mother of invention, right? Like you pushed yourself to the limit and that was what you needed to do to finally automate all this.

During those five years, like what were you making in profit per year? with the agency model. Yeah, it was probably, depends on the year. Some years are better than others, but it was probably high, six, low seven figures. Wow.

For those years. Really good living. Improfit. Yeah, really good living, but nothing too crazy. I mean, we're in Southern California and constantly things crazy, but yeah, still really good living.

I could have just done it forever. I, you know, it wouldn't have been, it's still not a bad business to this day. People can do that and start with that. So good living, yeah. Now, how were you ensuring, or were you ensuring that people weren't getting the same leads or like the same leads weren't being hit up a thousand times,

right? Yeah, there wasn't insurance and that was the, that was the great part of it. It's like, hey, if I have a list of realtors and let's say I verified that list and it's fairly valid, right? Customer A comes today. Customer B comes tomorrow. Customer C comes on Thursday. You're selling the same list over and over, especially if they want to, at that time, a bigger bulk list, right? So that's the beauty of it. You have a one-time cost to create it or build it. You have some small costs on going to keep it as accurate as possible at that time. You're reselling it over and over and over and over to, you know, to however many people. If 100 people come to your door tomorrow to buy it, you're reselling the same thing 100 times.

It's a digital file, you upload it, you send a link. It was hard, but it wasn't because there's also a lot of people that came. They don't want just every realtor. They want something very specific. So I'm manually manipulating CSVs. I had a team build a software to try to do it as where I can do it as well I can, but you're joining files together. You're appending data where it's like, hey, I have these fields, but now I want

to add a phone number, at an email, add a date of birth, out of whatever. So there's a lot of intricacies to building out strong lists. And then keeping them clean is the harder part. And that takes a lot of time and effort. Were you continually like revalidating the phone numbers in the emails or no? Yeah, the emails, yeah, which are easier to verify and they have a smaller cost that verify versus phones. Phones, we had a call center in the Philippines where we take a subset of the list. Let's say the list is 10,000 people. We take maybe 500, randomize it. So randomize 500, send it to the call center in the Philippines, they would manually hand dial every person and give us a disposition report. And that gave us a rough estimate of what that full list would look like in terms of accuracy.

And so we want to have a certain threshold there as far as number of disconnects, number of wrong number, wrong person, et cetera. But yeah, I mean, very fine, full numbers is a little harder. Now, what, let's just say theoretically, you have a list of 10,000 realtors. What did it cost you to acquire that list? And what were you selling something like that for? Yeah, next to nothing. I mean, I got sophisticated enough where I had relationships with so many people in the industry. I could get a list of and still can probably of every consumer in the U.S. with just about every data point minus, you know, maybe a few, but literally like your name, your data burg, your address, all your interests and hobbies, your phone number.

And I can, you know, 200, 300 million consumers for like a thousand bucks, like because of the relationships I had. So like literally next to nothing. So you're buying a realtor list for $100 to some small amount. And then you can resell that same thing for that same amount 20 times or an infinity amount of times. Yeah. And what would you sell them for? Yeah.

Per lead or like we kind of try to double end it. So I ran a company where, as I mean my wife were running this. So she had her own company and I had my own company. I had a company where I'd sell in bulk. So I'd say it's a realtor list. Every realtor in the U.S., it's $500. And you want California list, it's $200 bucks. Some just bulk list.

She'd have a business where she's selling on a per lead model. So it could be anywhere from 50 cents. Yeah. Retail and wholesale. Yeah. So and people would come to her and come to me, the same person. They'd say, I want this. And next week they'd go to her.

So she had her own business that was selling on a per cent model per cent per lead, depending on quantity and type and everything else. And I'd have a bulk one. And so we'd hit them from both ends. People need to understand, like, I've purchased realtor list a dozen times. You know, I've launched 80 businesses, right? So sometimes I want a cold email them, cold column, cold text them, sometimes Bismarck and North Dakota, sometimes everyone in California. I would reckon that most people that buy these lists from you never end up even reaching out to a lot of them, if not most of them, if not any of them, right?

Because like the initiative dies down or they can't figure out the cold email software or they lose steam. So it's not like if you sell a list 100 times, those 100 realtors are each getting beat up 100 times. It usually doesn't work like that, right? 100%. Yeah. I mean, we still see that to this day where, you know, there's a lot more to the list that goes into a successful outbound sales campaign, right? It's the messaging.

It's the timing. It's it. They have intent is there's all these other factors. It's how you're sending. It's your product or service. Like, you know, are you targeting the right ICP? There's so many factors that go into this that, yeah, I mean, most of a smaller SMBs or mom and pop shops aren't successful.

with these type of campaigns. And so there's a lot of factors that go into it for sure. Now, I know that you got tempted to start another agency to like actually do the outbound for these guys. Did, did you ever get tempted to do that or did you do that? Within the agency, we did. So we, we did some cold email stuff. We did some cold calling stuff. You know, it's more work. And we found with, there was enough revenue on just providing the list itself that we didn't need to, yeah, I was like, I was going to hire, have to hire these people and do all this extra work and then email servers and deliverability and there's all these things that go into it. And I mean, I have some friends now that do done for you cold email. And it's like,

you know, if you do it right and you're on top of your game, you can, there's 100%. There's a business in itself right there that anyone can start. But yeah, we just found there's enough money on the on the side, B2D data side. We can just focus here. We don't need to go and add all these extra things into it. Yeah. I mean, I remember I paid a guy on Upwork one or two thousand bucks to build my own custom bulk texting software built on Twilio. And then I paid another guy in Turkey to scrape Zillow every single morning for for sale by owner listings to get their phone numbers because that that was like the owner's cell phone number on the Zillow listing if it was a FISBO, right? And then I would bulk text all of them every morning and I would take the Zestimate

and then I would subtract like 40% from it and just say, hey, I see your house is listed for 100,000. I can close fast, all cash, $60,000 today. And 98% say, screw you or no. And 2% are like, let's talk, you know? And like, there's just so many amazing things that come from bulk scraping, bulk outreach. Like the world is just completely your oyster. And for guys like us, oh, there's a lot of rabbit holes to go down when you start doing that. For sure.

For sure. Yeah, that's amazing. So what happened with that? Did you end up buying a property store? a few houses in other states that we never saw in person and we completely lost our shirts. And it was a huge mistake. I'll never do it again. About this house in Mississippi for like 40 grand that, oh, I just, I've got stories.

Anyway. Yeah, because I thought about doing that too. I thought about, if you want to call it low balling. But yeah, I thought about that too. Like, hey, like, let's, let's scrape. Let's build out a list. And then let's just hit up everyone with a specific kind of variable percentage down from what they're listed at. We can append some or what we think the value is and then go 30%, 40%, or 7% lower.

And then what's the harm in reaching out to all these people and saying, here's an offer, or a regular leave, but if 1% except and the numbers were, boom. Here's the problem. This is something that I learned that makes me short, like open door is the fact that you just cannot replace that local knowledge. Like, if I'm a realtor in this random rural Mississippi town, I know that like that, that house is in a bad school district or it's about to be rezoned into a bad school. I know things that chat ChbT doesn't know. AI doesn't know.

The internet doesn't know. Like we think the internet and AI knows everything. But AI has not captured 99.9% of conversations, right? It's not there. It's not listening. It just captures what's already on the internet. But one-on-one conversations are not being recorded. And there's a lot of gold in those.

Right? So if you got Zillow trying to buy and sell homes, they lost their shirts. And they have all the data. you've got open door trying to do it for like 13 years now. I don't even think they're profitable. I could be wrong. Obviously, the stock's going crazy because it's kind of like a game stock, a game stop stock at this point.

But like it is just really freaking hard to buy and sell homes profitably unless you are a local, right? Yeah, I agree. Real estate is very local. And one more, you know, you might see like, hey, home prices are going up, home prices are going down. But there's specific local areas where they're, you know, they're doing the opposite. So totally agree with that.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So you're printing money with this agency. You switched to the SaaS. What did like your first three to six months look like on the SaaS model from revenue and profit wise? I think it was like $2,000 a month, $5,000 a month, $8,000 a month, $10,000 a month. It just started going. It just right off of that. Were you still doing the agency on the side? So like you didn't turn that off? At first, yeah. For the first, I'll have to look back. But like for the first six-ish months, I was still doing that. So you still have that kind of revenue stream. But then once we hit till I think like 10 or 20 MRR, it was like, that was in short or

that was four months, five months in. It was like, hey, this is recurring revenue. This is not recurring revenue. This is different. And so, yeah, I just started pivoting all my time into that. And we got our first customers through cold email. We were using our tool to build out list of people. We were cold email.

Eating your own dog food. In our own dog food, which we still do to this day. So you said your first months of up lead revenue, 2K MRR, then 5K, then 8K, then 10K within a few months. Once your MRR hit 10 to 20K, you shut down the agency. What happened after that point in the up lead story? Yeah, I mean, after that point, so me and my wife still running the business, didn't have any employees, obviously had to outsource debt team, didn't have any employees. And we're, so our son is three or four. We're driving him to preschool. I'm in the car, you know, we're in the car doing customer support. It was just, you know,

You're bootstriving it, right? And so it was like, hey, we're going to grow this business, and it's growing, and the revenues are growing. We have financial ability now to start bringing in some people. So that's when he started bringing in the people. So he brought in our first person on customer support. He's still with us to this day. And so, like, we started bringing people. We knew that if we're going to scale this business, we're going to need really good people.

So as Benin was about, and this is what most people find out is when you're starting to grow business is it. And, you know, the people are such, such a big part of it. So it was trial and error on bringing in people. bringing in a salesperson, bringing in this person, okay, that person doesn't work, figuring out processes for how to bring in all these people, how to train them, which I hadn't ever been in a big organization, so I'd have any experience in it. So just learning on the fly. So it became about people.

I mean, but look, part of it was our timing was right. I had a skill set to acquire customers profitably. So the revenue just kept going. I think within the first year, we were probably doing a million a year. A big part of that was by through cold emails, which I shared kind of the script that we used for that. And there was a bunch of follow-ups. It wasn't just one. Tell me about your e-signature business.

How did that come to be? How did you find customers for that? Sure, definitely. Yeah. So 2020 came, COVID, everything shut down. And, you know, I'm here in California. And it was, I honestly, part of it was I wanted to test myself. I said, I had, so by then, I believe it was three years old.

I don't remember we were doing a revenue at the time. Maybe we were at two million air, something, some small millions of an era. I said, you know what? I said, I want to see if I can test myself and if I can build another. fast company. So I started looking at what I should do. And I, what do I do? I go to G2. I start looking at all the categories in G2. I said, okay, I want to do something similar. So I want, sorry, explain to people what G2 is. Yeah. So back in the day, we're called G2 crowd. Now it's G2. And that's basically a review site for B2B software, so software companies. So you can go there and you can see different categories.

And then you can go into the categories and see all the different businesses, how they rank in terms and people reviewing them publicly. And you can see what people that have reviewed them well say about them. You can see what people have given them one star, two star reviews say about them, what they do bad. It allows you to kind of do some market research, allow you to see what's going on in specific industry. So I went to G2.

I knew I wanted something similar to what I did with Upleading and Zoom in, but I wanted a fragmented space. I wanted a big market, right? So I wanted there to be at least one or two companies that are worth over a billion, and I wanted to be where there's a lot of winners. So I looked at a bunch of spaces. I looked at you're saying like QuickBooks. I looked at that space.

I looked at a bunch of spaces and I saw the e-signature space. And so I thought that was interesting, especially because of the timing where you can't be face-to-face, at least at that moment. It's harder to be face-to-face to do signing. So people were sending Alaska electronically for e-signatures. Then I started looking at the market dynamics. I saw, hey, right now globally at that time, I think it was like this was 2020. 21% of documents, all documents worldwide that are signed are electronically signed. I said, what?

Wait, what do you mean? 99% or hand? And to me, it was like, what's that? Like, there's a room for this market to grow. But that was, that's, that's, I don't know if that's true. But that's why I found at that time that it was like, whoa, I was like, I thought at least 20% for you signed for 30% or something, maybe just because I'm in software. But so I saw that.

And I was like, okay, I was like, there's a market here. It's, the gap is going to change. It's going to be 991 and then 80, 10. And eventually it's going to fall. So I was like, hey, it's a lot. long road here for this market. But then here's what I did that most people don't do. Most people at this point say, oh, hey, I'm just going to build a software in Texas. I said, no. I said, I want to make sure, and I want it to the best of my ability, that I think I have the ability to acquire

customers profitably before I build the business. That's the hard part. But so I started doing, I started diving. And so what I found was a lot of the companies at that time and still today where a lot of their business was from these tools and templates. And HubSpot pioneered this or, you know, five companies before that, but they're building these free tools that they're giving away. And as part of the funnel of those tools, they try to get you to sign up for their software, or they're giving these free templates away. And so for the e-signature space, it was these online signature tools where, like, hey,

I can hand-draw my signature, or I can type my signature, and I can create like this kind of signature that I can use for documents. And on the template side, it was these contract agreements, marketing agreements, landlord agreements, all these agreements. So every company or most of the companies in this space in that space were doing this and they were SEOing for these phrases. And so I knew at that time I had an SEO advantage because at that point I had driven, you know, I don't know, tens of millions of website visits from all the sites I've built

through all this time. I've done a lot of gray hat. Black had SEO learned a lot from it to move completely to do just things by the book and had a lot of success doing things by the book, especially now for Upley. So I said, you know what? I think I have an advantage here and inquiring customers profitably. So let me try this. So found the dev team on Upwork. Same dev team at that, or sorry, well, we had a deaf team for the business that Uplied bill. We hadn't brought a team in house yet. So use that same dev team that we had originally found on Upwork to build MVP for signaturally.

I use the word or the company signutorily, in part for the S-U advantage of having more. word signature in the domain. And I said, you know what? Let's do it. So built the MVP and launched it. And the other side of it, she was like, hey, how do we price this? Right. The idea behind signaturely, because it wasn't just like I can acquire customer properly, I can build a signature business. It was how do I put a little twist off? So at that time, I started reading all the reviews on GTC. I started reading all the reviews on all competitors. So DocuSign was the biggest. There's Adobe sign, which they have now changed the name a bunch of times. But basically, it was doccian and Adobe are the two big companies, right? And so docuiting on. And I'm the two big companies, right?

Adobe's big docy sign just as Eastinger, they're big. Started reading all the reviews on them, bad reviews, good reviews. The thing that kept coming up was they're too complex. It was like very hard to use or they had a lot going on. Right. And so probably because they're building for enterprise, enterprise clients too, but you're not even trying to do that. They have their strategy there.

SMBs, there's a lot of churn. SMBs, they're price sensitive. Anyway, so I was like, okay, let's build something so simple, to use. So stupidly simple that your grandmother, your grandmother could use it, right? So, and that was our first time on the timeline was stupid simple signatures. Like just, and like, we're talking like bare bones simple, like upload document who needs to sign. No API, no contract lifecycle management.

Blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, no, it's like just stupid simple signatures. It's like the easiest tool that anyone could use. And so we ran it by a bunch of people, Rand's family, like, hey, it was like, we kept iterating, iterating, got the MVP going. And that was the, that was kind of the start of signaturely. And how is it doing today? And how did you get your first thousand customers? We started doing some cold email stuff. We knew we wanted to target some really small businesses. So started doing some cold email. And the SEO, as planned, took off. And so we had a freemium model. So you can sign three documents per month completely for free.

If you want to sign more than that or you need teams or blah, blah, blah, more access, business, branding, blah, blah, you can upgrade to a paid plan. And it started taking off crazy, but from a free level. So revenue wasn't crazy. Revenue wasn't like up lead where it's like first year, a millionaire are in the second year. It wasn't crazy, but the user base was crazy. They loved it. And they also didn't need, most of them didn't need to sign more than three dollars.

These were just like mom and pop shops that were using it here and there. And so we started growing and use. really quickly. I think we had over 100,000 first year or two. I put most of my time into up lead because that's the bigger business. So I wasn't putting a lot of time into this. And it was continuing to grow, but it still is today. So today,

we have 1.9 million users. I think we're going to pass two million any minute now, probably. But 99.x% of those are on a free plan. They're free users that use the platform, love the platform. And the platform and we get a ton of traffic. We probably get 800,000, 900,000 visits per month to the website. And a big part of that is the tools and templates that we built. Those drive a lot of traffic. Those people go through a funnel. So it's not a huge business in terms of revenue, but it's a big business in terms of a user base that loves it.

We eventually moved to a free trial model where you put your credit card, there's a free trial. If you don't cancel the seven days, you're going to build it. It's a free trial model. So eventually moved to that. It's a month to the revenue a little bit, but not drastically because a big point. portion of these people want the free. So we still have free a back drawer offer to a premium plan. So it's a great business. And I always looked at it like if I build up a big enough one day and I do want to sell, which I don't want to sell right now. And I get offered all the time. I don't want to sell. But if I did at some point, I would have this other business I could pivot to and put a lot of my time in it for an energy too. And that's already built as a base and it has some customers. And so I can then I

could push and really grow that. And that's how I look at that business. But yes, the great business and great customers and we're still building and we're excited to keep, you know, keeping it simple. You know, we still have an API now. We have things now, but still keeping it very simple and offering the best support to our users and helping them get document sign and moving away from Docty Sign. Yeah. That's amazing. What are some business ideas that you're seeing in the lead gen space, like stuff that's like tangential to what you're doing that you think someone needs to capitalize on, but you're too focused or too busy to capitalize on? Is there any other, like, agency plays you see?

Maybe it can be built on top of your software or alongside it, et cetera. Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, where our space is going eventually with everything that's going on is, you know, right now you're going into a Zoom info. You're going into an up lead and you're saying, here is my ICP, her title industry, et cetera, et cetera. Maybe you're uploading some lists of domains, you look like customers, et cetera. And you're running some signals and you're gathering some data. You're pushing those into systems and those systems you're sending emails or making calls. you're sending to your reps, et cetera. This is slowly getting automated in a way, right?

You know, in the future, it's you log into Uplead. Uplede. Uplight has access to your CRM, salesports, or how you use, we know who your best customers are, what they look like, you know, emails are being sent and eventually calls are being made on your behalf and your calendar is being filled with appointments

without you literally doing anything. Like, not even going into a software and saying, oh, here's my IP people, no, It's like just click a couple buttons, close your eyes, and meetings are on your calendar. Like that's where it's going and it's hard. You know, if people are building that and people are trying to build that, but it's not perfect yet. And but it will be 100%. You're not going to need to go have your, you know, SVRs aren't going to need to, look,

there's still going to be a, a market for that. You're still going to be able to make cold calls and get into accounts. And it's, but things are being automated in a way that. you know, it's going to look a lot different in a year or two or five than it is today for sure. So that's one of the things I'm seeing. I also have a lot to talk about about that, like the QuickBooks competitor, because one of the ideas that I had was around, there's a lot of services in and around being a QuickBooks competitor that are profitable outside of just the software itself. And these are things like, for example, for that business,

It's like payroll or health insurance or credit card processing. And you know what's funny is a lot of times those other ancillary services around the software are sometimes a lot more profitable than the software itself, right? Because if you think about it, think about like, let's just say you're going to build a CRM for, I don't, dentist or pick any industry, right? It's like if you have, if you created a CRM for dentist and maybe you use lovable or Chris or something like that, Maybe you use an outsource dev team, maybe you use Go High Level or some other software and kind of of why label it. You build a CRM for dentists and you build everything out for whatever the industry is. And let's just say you built a business where I'm giving this software away completely for free. There's no charge. This is a free CRM for dentists and I'm making it for whatever industry

and I make it the best CRM possible for that very specific niche vertical. But as part of that, you have to use my X, Y, Z, whether that's my credit card processing instruments, or my, you know, my payroll, my health insurance, because a lot of times those other services make more than the $100 a month you're going to make per user on the software. And so I think there's a big business there that hasn't been tapped because as software costs to create software is coming down, it's in some way race to the bottom. And if that is the case, how are you going to monetize that? Well, in certain areas, is like the CRM area or whatever, even like a QuickBooks competitor. There's other services in and around the software that you can make a lot of money on

and you can give away the software for free. So I think that, you know, I haven't really seen anyone doing this. I've seen like, for example, Squire. They have like, I think that's a CRM for barbershops. They have like all in one tool for barbershops. They rate, I think, $100,000, $150 million or worth a billion or whatever it is. And they're building the best software they can just for one vertical, just for barbershops. If you're a barbershop, you have to have this.

But the thing is, they're not even giving you it for free. They're charging for the software, but they're also getting all these other things, the credit card processing, the health insurance, the credit, the payroll, all the other stuff around it. They're building it all in one. I think there's a big market for building these all in one tools and giving software away completely for free, knowing you're going to make money on all these other areas. Yeah. Well, let's break it down real quick. Let's say you're a dentist and not unreasonable for a dentist to do a million dollars a year top line, right? That's very conservative.

Let's say it's 1.2 to keep the numbers easy. So a dentist is doing $100,000 a month. Let's just say they're pushing it all through credit cards. Okay. Let's say today that dentist is paying $300 a month for HubSpot. I mean, that could be reasonable, right? 300 a month for HubSpot. You come in there and say, hey, I've got a CRM.

It's better than HubSpot. In fact, it's a CRM only for dentists. In fact, instead of it being 300 a month, it's free. Cool. Awesome. What's the catch? Well, there's no catch. I just need you to bring your credit card processing over from whoever you're

with to me. What is it per month? 3%. Right. Same as Stripe or anyone. But what you do is you just white label someone else's credit card processing and do what's called interchange plus pricing, which means for the 10% of customers that use American Express, you're not going to make any money.

For the 80 or to 90% of customers that use debit cards or other credit cards, you're going to make between like 0.2% and 2.5% right? And so then if you're doing $100,000 a month in credit card transaction volume, and let's say you average 1%, you're making $1,000 a month from this client that their CRM is now free, their credit card fees didn't go up at all, but a small percentage of that is just coming to you.

And so you're making three and a half times what HubSpot was making for the same thing, but it's a win, win, win all the way around. Is that what you're saying? 100%. 100%. And then obviously you could layer on the other services, group health insurance, payroll, etc.

I mean, it's also a good idea for a company that's already like an insurance company or a payroll company or a credit card processing company. If I'm a credit card processing company, right, instead of just saying, okay, I'm going to go to this, walk in this restaurant, try to get their business and business. This is like a whole other section of area they haven't explored. I'm going to build a CRM for restaurants or I'm going to build a CRM for whatever and I'm going to give it away for free because I want their business. So it's, yeah, I mean, look, it's a no-brainer. Like you said, if you're a dentist, if you're a chiropractor, whatever, it's a matter of industry. And you have someone come to you and it's, hey, this. This is completely free. It's going to save you X, Y, Z a month. You know, you have to use credit

off pricing or you have to these other services, but the price doesn't change there either, or maybe in some cases you have some relationship where you can get even better pricing there. I mean, look, yeah, every single dentist that you approach isn't going to, but if a small percentage of those do, and then you're ingrained, right? They're not going to then go pay for a CRM after they're getting it for free, and especially if you're narrowing down to one vertical and you're serving that vertical really well. And there's probably, like, that's why why these others are doing well because there's no one that was going after barbershopped CRMs. No one.

I mean, there was, but there wasn't anyone doing it in a real way, putting all their time in their use, right? So it's interesting. If someone's listening to this and like, okay, well, first of all, I'm not going to start a credit card processing company. We're saying, you don't have to. Go Google white labeled CC processing service. I just did it.

There's dozens of them, right? You can just plug into their system. They'll take a little cut. You take a little cut. And then you're thinking, well, how am I going to build a CRM? You don't even need a vibe code. it. Just use high level. Right? Just use high level. You have a three to $500 a month agency account and you can have unlimited sub accounts for free. And oh, dentists is too oversaturated, copy and paste it. Do it chiropractors,

barbershops, whatever you want. So you don't need to build the CRM. You don't need to build the credit card processor. You can use the same service high level to do the outreach to find them. You could be eating your own dog food to find these customers. I love this. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's amazing. And let me also say too, you know, there's a lot of talk, right, on X and, you know, podcast, everything about how, and look, I love lovable on cursor and replant all these tools. I love them. And I think they're amazing. And I think they're lowering the barrier to entry to build software. And we're in a crazy time to pay.

So things are changing. 100%. Let me just say that first. But let me also say the notion, and this is coming from someone that has built SaaS tools to compete. with really big companies. The notion that you can just like, hey, I can build doxy sign in 48 hours. And I can get to 10, 20 million AR.

This is easy. I can, I can, you know, I can buy this way. It's a lot harder than it looks to get to scale in like millions of, like let's say five or 10 million plus an AR, right? Like, look, getting to 100K in ARR is completely different than getting to 10 million in AR. And I just want to say that for anyone listening, that, you know, because there's people that just think it's just really easy to do to get to scale. And obviously, everyone has their own

definition of success, right? Some people, 10K a month is, that's all I need. I'm freaking, I'm, mind is blown. And some people, they want to get to this next level. It's as someone who's tried and still trying, it's very hard because it doesn't, it's not just, it's easier to do now because it's not just the software, but there's things that come, there's other parts of the business. acquiring customers profitably, building a brand, there's all these other things that you need to do to be successful. And so I don't want to make it seem like it's just easy to do,

but it's a lot easier to build. And if you have a skill set around acquiring customers or you're willing to, do you have a drive to go learn? Like, that's my whole life, right? I'm learning from reading books, from watching YouTube videos, from listening to the podcast, didn't have a mentor, didn't have a rich dad or anything. So I'm just learning on the fly on my own.

And if you have the drive to do that, you very well can be successful. And it's a lot, the barriers entry are a lot lower now. Yeah. But also, let's not get it twisted and think that building a $10 million AR business is just easy. And I can build this no-code tool and boom and I'm up and running because, you know, there's a lot of talk around SaaS is dead and, you know, everyone's displacing. And yeah, like, SaaS is probably on a downturn, you know, compared to where it was in 2021. but at the same time, you know, people choose Salesforce, for example,

not just because, well, in part because they're the market leader and sales team just know them. Okay, great. But, you know, are you sock to compliant? Are you, you know, for doc, you say, like, all these things that go into the business that people should be aware of when they're going, and they're trying to start and compete against a big competitor. It's a lot easier said than done, but it's possible,

but it's a lot easier set than done to get to get from a massive steal. Yeah, I just want people to know that they don't need to build massive scale. 100%. Exactly, right. They don't. Like you just don't. Yeah.

The barrier to entry is a lot lower and to build a business rate, making 10 grand a month, which is life changing for 99% of people in the world. Like, that should be your short-term goal. And then obviously, yeah, try to scale from there. But like, barrier to entry is a lot lower than it was 100%. Yeah. Last question for me. What tools do you use to copy others?

Like if you're cloning another website or another SaaS, another business, are there any like cool tools or tricks that you like to use to do that? There's not a lot of tools or tricks that we use. Or frameworks. Kind of like your framework of you went to G2, you saw that everyone hates how complex it is, stuff like that. Like how do you look at cloning other businesses? Yeah, I think you have to, look, you have to know your angle.

Like, I don't think price can be your differentiator because eventually, like I said, there's going to be some software that's free. That's making money on the slavery service. So I don't think price can be a differential. I think you have to have that one angle, right, whether it's ease of use or something else. But also, everything's being copied. So just, you know, you come up with, oh, I'm going to offer X, Y, Z, and I'm going to do this, that other people aren't doing.

Well, now all the other people see that, if people want that, they're just going to do that. So features aren't, can you really be a differentiator? So I think at the end of the day, this is why it goes back for building the brand, because what I see, most people, they have companies in their mind that are shortlisted when are going to buy. And so if you're going to buy XYZ software, payroll, whatever it is. You already have QuickBooks and maybe one or maybe one other in your brand, in your mind. And so building a brand is such a key part of how you differentiate. On the copying side, yeah, like, look, anything can be copied now. But the harder part is acquiring the customers profitably.

Do I have a skill set or a way I can acquire customers profitably? And can I eventually get it to a point where I build a mini brand so I'm in customers' minds. And so I think those are the two areas that you should focus on. Look, if you're building a ClickBooks competitor, you can go on ClickBooks's site and you can go on G2.

And there's frameworks and things you can do. But at the end of the day, if you can't acquire customers' profit, it would be none of that matters. And if at the end of the day, you can't build a mini brand and be in some people's minds, none of that matters.

So I think those are the more important areas so much to focus on when they're copying is not just, because you can go on every competitor's website, You can run it through chat GPT or some AI to analyze everything and figure things out. But figuring out what your differentiator is going to be, your short differentiator, whatever that may be, and then figuring out and even pre-selling before you build. Like, for example, if you can cold email people right now before your QuickBooks competitor is built,

you can start cold email campaigns right now and see if you get some yeses. If you get some yeses, then go build it. Figure out how to buy your customers first before you go build the thing. of people like, I'm going to build this, I'm going to do this. And it's so exciting. And they get so much hype and they build it. And they're like, oh, what do I do now? Acquired customers. How do I do that? And like, no, just start the customer acquisition. Run Facebook ads test right now before you even have it. Throw up a landing page to whatever. See if you can get people to through a funnel right now before you even have the thing. And then go build it once you

have proven out you can acquire customers profitable. Amen. You're purchasing the choir. We don't have to wonder anymore. is like, I know this. This is easy money. This is great. No, it's like we don't have to wonder if people want our thing before we build it. Like, we don't have to. Yeah. Sell it before you have it. Sell it before you have it. Pay and then so that's, man. I mean, that's what I recommend. Will, you're the band. Where can people find you if they want to find you? Yeah. So just started a YouTube channel. You can push Will Cannon or it's I. We'll collab. We'll do a collab link on that. Perfect. We'll do a collab link on that. I build my

personal brand website. I am willcanon.com. Built that. I have all my playbooks they are completely free. So I wrote a playbook on SEO. I wrote a playbook on Code email. I wrote a playbook on Legion. I wrote a playbook on everything. And it's not just like a Chad GPT written playbook. This is like all my 20 plus years of experience building out all these businesses. I put everything I know into these playbooks and they're completely free. Not selling them. You have to give your email to download them and I'll put you on my list, but not selling them, getting them away completely free and go check me out. I am Will Cannon. Yeah, I'm on Instagram. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm everywhere. Yeah, hopefully people have value and I appreciate you

having you all, Chris. Absolutely. Thanks, Ben. What'd you think? Please share it with a friend and we'll see you next time on the Kerner office.