The Kristian Harloff Show - AQUAMAN 2 IS ROTTEN AND IS A YOUNG AVENGERS FILM A BAD IDEA?

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

AMAZON LIST: https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls... Welcome to today's Big Thing where we dive into the depths of the latest DC blockbuster, #Aquaman2. Join Kristian and Coy as they navigate the turbulent waters of this Jason Momoa starrer and discuss what went wrong. 🌊🔱 From the depths of Atlantis to the heights of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, we also discuss why #YoungAvengers might not be the superhero landing we're hoping for. 🦸‍♂️🦸‍♀️ Remember to like, share, and subscribe for more deep dives into your favorite films! 🎬🍿 #FilmReview #MCU #DC #JasonMomoa #Aquaman2 #YoungAvengers IF YOU ARE ABLE TO SUPPORT THE SHOW! AG1: If you want to take ownership of your health, it starts with AG1. Try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3K2 AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. Go to http://www.drinkAG1.com/BIGTHING ROCKET MONEY: Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions – and manage your money the easy way – by going to http://www.RocketMoney.com/THING DRAFTKINGS CASINO: Download the DraftKings Casino app NOW and sign up with promo code BIGTHING and play FIVE DOLLARS to get ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS IN CASINO CREDITS! That's promo code BIGTHING PATREON: Become a Patron!: https://www.patreon.com/TheBigThingShow

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and I've done my non-spoiler review for it. I've done my out-of-the-the-the-the-the-tear reaction for it. Aquaman in the Lost Kingdom, not good. And the Rotten Tomato score seems to say that as well. But at this point, when we're taping it, a lot of the audience reaction isn't in yet. Curious if the audience is going to, to say, ah, you guys are too hard on it. It was fun. It's usually what happens. Most of these movies.

Ah, it was fun. I'm over giving things a pass being fun. I want a little bit more. I think we should hold a higher standard to these movies if they're asking us to pay our earned dollars for it. So, that's a conversation we'll have. We'll talk about all this in general. Koi and I have seen it. We'll do a non-spoiler review. It is one of the, it's also telling that there's, they were in plus ones, the embargo lifted at 7 a.m. in the morning. on day of release. They knew. They knew what was coming.

It wasn't a surprise to them. The other news that I don't think is good, and I'm sure my colleagues will disagree with me, and I don't know how true it is, but apparently they're going to make the Young Avengers a movie instead of a television series. Colossal error. Colossal error.

And again, I don't know if my co-hosts agree or disagree, but I will definitely argue the point that I think this is a very bad move for Marvel if they decide to go that route. especially right now. Other things going on in the news? There's a few other stories that we'll get into for sure here today. But for the most part, those are the ones that I really wanted to discuss.

And there's something called Zatana, which they'll know what it is. I don't know what they do. And we'll talk about that and other things. So it is capes and cows. It is probably a shorter episode today, but we'll discuss it as we get closer. We're going to do a spoiler review of Aquaman, myself and Coy, and we are going to do an episode next week that'll have myself, Coy, and Winston, talking about just all of the comic book movies in general and shows that have been out.

We'll discuss them whether we like them or didn't like them. So we hope you join us for that. Apple Podcast, Spotify, anywhere podcasts are found, that stupid thing floating around in the air right now? I don't think it's stupid. I think it's a nice thing. I don't know why I said that. I love the subscribe button. Why?

Because it makes you guys part of the show. And we're trying to get to 200,000. Got that 100,000 around. right there because of you guys we got it fast let's try to get to two all right it's capes and cows let's do it it's me it's winston it's coy here we go what's up everybody welcome back big thing capes and cows christian harlof Winston A marshal boy jandro oof oh that new lens yeah listen man that's crisp look how good we look that's crispy That's good, right?

That's crispy. A wide. Look, Winston, I am going to be honest with you. Uh-oh, what I do? You dodged a bullet, homie. He dodged a bullet. You know what? It's funny, man.

I remember being salty. Not at you. I was just like, let me just want my brother come up in here. This is all bullshit. They got, you got two. You got one black dude is the antagonist. You got like another dude who's like, of color. I can't even come up in here.

There's some bullshit. And then you told me what it was like. And I was like, good. I was writing jokes. motherfucker. It's the truth because we saw it and look, and this is what I say is that

it always is telling us. I ran to Bibbiani last night as we were walking in. Ironically, he loved it. No, he did not. He did not. The one superhero movie. He usually likes the campy like, you know, bad

movies that everybody else doesn't like. Sure. Even he was like, it's, he's like, it's not how bad it is. It's how incredibly bad it is and how whatever his line was, just, and I agreed with them. I agree with what he was saying. It's just, it's comically bad, is what he was saying.

And not in a fun way. No, it's, and my line again last night, as I saw it out of the theater, was that I grounded my six-year-old because I found out that she wrote it. It really is, seems like it's written by either AI or some, like, it's that bad? The writing is so bad, dude. It's near, okay, you know how in comics sometimes there's, especially Black Manta, because he's so sassy and spiteful. There's those, like, comic-y monologue villain bad guy lines.

it's those but from everyone. So then when he says them, it doesn't feel out of place. And if they had made it so those lines were like zingers that Black Manta said, it would be like, oh, they get the memo. Instead, no one speaks like a person and it's almost unintelligible

while somehow being boring. A hundred percent. It is boring. Somehow. It's a boring movie. Like, I close my eyes at one point, and I said, should I take a nap? And I can't take a nap.

It's a movie where I love all of the pieces. And I want to make that very, Very clear. I'm a big fan of James Juan. I'm a big fan of what Mamoa has brought to a character that to me, much like what Snyder does with his DC characters, Mamoa's Aquaman feels like a great elseworld. Like I'll never feel like that's Aquaman, but I'll feel like that's an Aquaman that I enjoy. So I love him. Yeah, but he's not doing him.

He's not doing his. He's Jason Mamoa. But even in that, they're not letting him, it feels like they filmed a lot of Jason Mamoa and then edited around it as opposed to like letting it be what the first one was, which was insane. And they also, so I love Juan, I love Mamoa. I love the supporting cast. I think the first film assembled a really fun, interesting supporting cast. I think that Patrick Wilson is so slept on. He's probably the best thing in the movie. He is, but I'm a huge fan, not just small, but like I see everything Yaya does.

Like Yaya Abdul Matin the second is, I think one of the best actors working. And he's wasted. And they not only waste him, they waste him in a new way. Oh, isn't like he's wasted, isn't there not using him to his full potato? No, he's hammered drunk. No, no, no, no. He's blackout drunk. No, no, no.

It's not the character. But I wouldn't blame him. I wouldn't blame him. Yeah. I wouldn't blame him. But like how do you waste yaya again? Like that was the biggest insult to me was like, the first one was like, okay, we're setting them up.

And then they were going to do the trench, which we found out later was going to be like a black man to movie. You've had your ability to go like let's put the trench elements we wanted to into this and do a sequel that feels like the villain is, nope. It adds to the same overall problem with this movie, a lot of them. But one of the other ones is that it's generic and it's predictable. Like there's so many moments. So like, okay, that's supposed to have.

Oh, there it is. That's going to happen. Oh, there it is. And then a moment that'll definitely, oh, wait, Jason Moe's got something serious to say, but you know he's going to tag it with a, yeah, dude. And he does it. And it's like, okay, you knew that was coming. And it's like, again, I really like Jason Mamoa a lot.

I think he's a movie star. And I think he's got so much personality. And to me, he was the best thing in Fast X. And it was because he was able to kind of go over the top, kind of cartooning, this kind of, you know, the cartooning Joker, Heath Ledger version of what he was doing. And I thought it was great. And he has me. He's having as much fun as he can, but they really did go into this all in on just

Mamoa surfer guy thing. And you can't rely on that for everything. It's what happens. The Rock is starting to run into that too. So you've got to be able to change it up and say, well, who is this character? And you know, that's why he's in 824-Hil. Well, that's, but that's exactly why I've said, like, the Rock is the biggest superstar in the world.

But there's a reason why I was saying when we talked about the best wrestling actors that have ever been. We started putting both Sina and Batista above him just because the rock is playing the rock now. There was at least at the beginning when he was doing a multitude of different roles. It felt like he was switching it up. Faster and those things.

But now they get repetitive. I don't love the fact that we're running into that territory with Jason Momoa because I love him too. I think he's a great actor. I don't want to just be like, oh, and then Jason Memoa in from now on. And I think that they just relied on it because they didn't have anything else because the script is so poor.

And the stuff that they really wanted to focus on was the relationship with his brother, which could have been good. And the idea of, again, family and that he's trying to manage being the king of Atlantis with, you know, also. But they didn't show us that they told us. No.

And then it's like these other things that it just, and people ask, you know, what about Amber Hurd? She's in it. She's in it, but it's like, they definitely take her. Definitely cut a lot of her. They cut a lot of her, but she's in it. And there's some things like there's, again, we'll get into it on the spoiler discussion.

But someone's like, I'm not seeing this movie because it supports Amber Hurd. It's like the same thing where everything, if you want to see the movie, you see the movie, and it's like if someone's, there's tons of actors, directors,

producers, craft services, people who did things that are maybe bad. Also, she already got paid. Yeah, but you also don't punish the rest of the 99%

of the, if you want to see it. You don't group punishment. And this isn't a football team. Right. Like it's one, it's one thing to do that as a coach when you're like trying to teach a lesson

to your high schoolers being like if you fail, we all fail. It's another thing. thing when this is like an actual business and so many people put their heart and soul into this I just never agreed with it even when and like and I don't and I and I think that it was it's the right move and even if it did well it was the right move that you can't bring Ezra Miller back but I still think people should have seen it that you were excited to have

Michael Keaton back yeah if they wanted to see all these other people just by that buy it's worth the movie love she was incredible yeah and I don't mind someone saying this though I don't mind someone saying, I chose not to see it because I don't want to contribute to Amber Hurd. And you have the right to say that. But don't, the comment that I saw was, if you see this movie, you support Amber Hurd. And it's like, you can't, you can't say that. You can't tell me who I'm supporting because I could be going there to support Jason Mamoa.

I could be going there because I just want to see a movie. It's also, I think the other difference, too, is if you're talking about stuff like it's weird to listen to R. Kelly music because that is he is the star singer of it. He wrote it

I don't know the producer's name. You know what I'm saying? Like there are other people involved sure, but like he's marking it off of him. He is a majority of that. So I could even understand it a little bit more with the flash to be honest with you

since Ezra was the star of that. Yeah, but it's still, but it's still like you said what, Keaton coming back, There was way more to it than just Ezra. Right. So that's a little different.

You know what I mean? It is for sure. And either way. And she has such a small part. She is not the problem with the movie. I'll tell you that right now. And the movie is just, it's very, as Corey was saying, it's, I love James Juan. I really, really like Jason Mamoa, Patrick.

Well, everybody who's involved in this movie. But it's, it's, James Juan, if this was the first movie I ever saw his, I believe this is not a good director. Because it's not directed well. No. It's not directed well. It felt like three movies that got made. One was made by a studio. One was made by a director of the vision.

And one was made by a studio again. And then they blended them all together. So there were moments that you could see Vision. And there were moments that felt like a good studio movie, but most of it felt like studio interference. It feels like, I hope, I hope this is the end of all of that for everybody. I think the DCU is going to be,

my problem is the DCU I'm so looking forward to that this feels like such an unceremonious goodbye to something that I did enjoy. Especially the post credit scene. Oh my God. There's no spoilers here, But the post-credit scene had an opportunity to say, like, if James Gunney, he was like, okay, we know this is the goodbye. So here is the goodbye that we're going to give you, regardless of what you thought of the movie, here's a really big scene of the goodbye.

And we shot it just to say goodbye. The end scene is such a piss in the face. Yeah. It's such a piss in the face. Why did we move this back a year? Great question. I've got many questions because the CGI didn't get better. I guess because I thought maybe because, I don't know, was with the strike or, I mean,

got pushed back a couple times, but most recently, I guess the strike they wanted him, I would have promote it, and it's probably, because it's, it's only tracking to do 35 to 40 million and I wonder if the reviews are going to hurt it. He's been everywhere promoting it, but then they didn't have any sort of premiere, so it's like that would have been an opportunity for other people to promote it.

I'm confused because I remember wasn't this supposed to come out last December? Yes, I'm pretty sure it was. So I don't know, I mean, maybe they didn't want to go up against Avatar at the time, which is probably smart. Two water movies and one is a job. And there's one scene that, like, There's moments that feel like, because Aquaman also felt like, I'm not saying it copied Avatar,

but I'm saying the world they built, Atlantis feels much like the Navi planet. There were a few times that they were like, oh, that looks like they took that shot from inspiration. Yeah, so that would have been tricky in the same theater. But the other answer to that question is, it clearly wasn't ready. They did more reshoots. We were talking about on this show. They did reshoots that they did. Which I don't think helped it because the movie felt like it had a lot of additional photography.

Well, who knows what the reshoots were? Which ones were what? Because, I mean, the stuff that, like, the relationship between Wilson and Mamoa, to me, is the best stuff in it. I just wish that was the, I wish that movie, like, it was defined. And I said on the out of the theater, actually, another comment that I saw that I pushed back against. So, like, and I'm not going to give him the troll voice, because it wasn't a troll voice comment. It was just a comment that said, it's unfair to compare this to Godzilla minus one, is what I said. And I compared it.

I said, not compared the movies themselves, but I said, this is what I wish studios would take a look at Godzilla. and focus in that you can do a blockbuster with real characters and make us care and not just give us this fluff that's empty. And I said it is totally fair because they should have a higher standard. Because just because it's a movie about a superhero in the freaking water doesn't mean that it can't be something dynamic. Well, I think the thing that people forget about movies and TV and storytelling as a whole, Aquaman, Atlantis, Black Manta, those are set pieces. That is the wrapping paper to what the actual gift is which should be the story of the character development Yeah so you a thousand percent it's fair to compare it to Godzilla minus one just like I can compare

Parasite to you know I'm trying to think what stupid movie came out the same year as Parasite like But you know what I'm saying like they could be Completely different but if the core of what you're getting at is working Yeah, then you're good if there were five bad Godzilla movies in a row and someone like then Godzilla minus one came out and everybody's like oh you know it's just a godzell movie, then you watch minus one, you're like, no, but it doesn't have to be. But they're saying. But there's something I'm saying, there needs to be a elevating factor for people to understand,

which there shouldn't have to be. Like, we should just make good movies using these parts. I got a huge argument with someone years ago about Medea movies for that same reason. Like, I don't like those movies because they're, they're, for me, a lot of them are actually very poorly produced, both like the writing.

There have been times with editing where I've seen continuity of it, like, where someone is like, hey, dog, you know what? and someone like sits down and they cut and they come back and they sit down again. I'm like we can have like even if you want to support say black cinema or superhero films or whatever you can still have a standard. And if it's not meeting that it's okay to be critical of it and it doesn't mean

that that doesn't. It made me start thinking about the overall DCU right? It's that what's the tone going to feel like? Because I think that if Gunn did something along the lines and again using like Godzilla minus one but something imagine at every movie actually instead of the big spectacle that they've always leaned on and studios make you do because they think that that's what the audience needs and shovel the popcorn in the face. What if you actually put a little bit more into that what he was good at, the kind of smaller filmmaking feel into it. He still spent a lot of money on it, but make it feel smaller, paying attention to the characters developing.

And then when, and that's again using Godzilla, when the big moments happen, they earn it. So when it happens in the beginning of the movie, what happens in Godzilla, boom, big, huge scene and then it is also adjacent to the fact of what is happening emotionally to the characters and then you hit it to the middle and it's like oh we've had all this lead up with the characters and you care so much and then boom another big moment happens yeah they earn it what you're what you're describing is a good movie yes but uh i i was raised in the theater yeah um but the big thing that was always told i don't love musicals but i thought it was a great lesson just for again excellent storytelling all those musical members are happening because they can't any

Any musical, any musical. The musical numbers need to be earned. And so the idea is that something is happening and it's gotten just to a point where you can no longer express yourself with just words or just with that. You have to sing it out. You have to dance it out.

It should be the same thing with action sequences. It's a situation where it's like, damn, the only way we can deal with this right now, Godzilla is running. It's like the monster is coming. The monster is coming. The only shit, we screwed up and then boom. You have to earn it.

You have to earn it. Look at Daredevil. Look at, like, Netflix had like a long-form show that always earned those big action set pieces by caring about the character. Right. And I, like, Winter Soldier, the good ones, Black Panther, the good ones earned their spectacle by being so emotionally driven you care about the spectacle. You feel disrespect as an audience member. 100% feel disrespect. And that's the main thing with these movies in general.

People are going to ask right away, and this is a conversation also. Well, is it better than the Marvels? Is it better than the Marvels? Here's what I would say about that. I think that the marvels, when it works as a movie, is better written. But I think that Aquaman 2 is way more consistent in the tone. It's just a boring tone, but the movie itself. It is one movie.

It's one movie. It knows what it is? And if I had to, like, what movie you're going to watch? You got to watch one of them again. I would probably take Aquaman 2 if I was going to say out of the two of them. Because I'm telling you, more than most, the musical scene ripped me out. of the Marvel's and I never really recovered and then the stupid cat scene and I just never recovered

So here's my question. You said you were going to take a nap during Aquaman 2. Yeah, I wasn't. How long of a nap were you going to take? I don't know. I couldn't officially do it because like again I felt like I wasn't doing my job. I understand that but the reason why I ask is because if you needed to you could close your eyes for three minutes for the musical scene and another 90 seconds for the cats. It sounds like this entire movie made you want to jump out a window. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's because the only thing that really the Marvel's had was the chemistry

between the three actors and Ms. Marvel is fantastic. She's better than the pieces of this. Yeah, it's, I don't know. I would, I would, I would ask the person that gave me that scenario what I did to them. It's really interesting, we'll talk about this more on our year-end episode,

but it's interesting how two of my favorite comic movies at all time came out alongside two of my least favorite. I honestly consider... What's the second favorite? Crossed Spadavers and... Guardians 3? Guardians 3.

I already forgot that was this year. That was this year, man. Spoilers for our Friday show. Thank you. But we're talking about like what this tone is of superhero movies. I'm excited to talk about that in our episode because those are two examples of how to do it right and two examples that I'll do it wrong in one year from the same two studios. Crazy.

Crazy. Anyway, so I'm very curious to, if you've seen the film at this point, are you going to see the movie? Do you care anymore? Do you agree, disagree with anything that we're saying here? Please go ahead. Let us know. One of the things I'd like to say, and I said this the other. day and I want to give a shout out to my glasses who are screwed up. I want to give a shout

out to Ali Bahwan who I'm looking at this wonderful monitor right now and I have this lens Ali we put people asked do we have an Amazon gift list for Christmas and stuff and we do and you'll see it in the description but Ali was Ali was so was so just completely generous so thank you and the same to first rate Nate and others who contributed because the computer is has been ruining the show. Ruining. There's an entire episode of Caps and Cells that don't exist.

There are two entire episodes that don't exist. Yeah, and this one, and this one could be glitchy. Yesterday's episode was glitchy. Again, I don't know. I'm hoping that it won't be, but that problem should be solved soon. But people like Ali and people like first rate need and other people who contribute

to the list helps tremendously, so thank you so much. If you want to help out show, I'm going to tell you about one of our wonderful sponsors right now. I'm going to tell you about Draft King's Casino. Listen to this. Unwrapped the first of many presents this season with holidays on the house from Draft King's Casino.

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See terms at casino.draftkings.com. slash players choice for eligibility, terms, and responsible gaming resources. All right, thank you to Draft King's Casino. Happy to have Draft King's Casino back, and you guys can go check that out right now. Okay, let's continue on with Aquaman, and let's talk about this Rotten Tomato Score, man. Let's see what the update is. And this is, again, it could be different by the time we air this. All right, here we go.

Aquaman in the Lost Kingdom score has been revealed, and it is one of the DCEU's work. first yet. The first wave of reviews have been counted for Aquaman in the Lost Kingdom, but does the sequel starring Jason Mamoa and the DCU's time on a positive note? Not based on Rotten Tomatoes score. The review embargo for Aquaman and Lost Kingdom lifted earlier today, and you could read our Roundup here. And the final DCU movie is off to a disastrous start on Rotten Tomatoes. Considering the fact that Aquaman exceeded expectations back in 2018, becoming a $1 billion hit. We'd hope that this sequel might send the franchise off on a high.

Unfortunately, a terrible year for this shared world got even worse. As Aquaman and Lost Kingdom debuted with a 36% score. You're doing an update, are you looking at it right now? 38%? 38% 38 and who knows what it is by the time this airs. This makes it one of the DCE's worst review titles and is currently sandwiched

between Batman v. Superman, Donna Justice, at 29, and Black Adam at 38. The first Aquaman was 65%. Earlier this year, Shazam was 49%. the Flash 63%, Blue Beetle, 78%. More reviews will be counted in the days ahead, though it will take a lot of positive verdicts

to push Aquaman in the Lost Kingdom to fresh territory. Based on opening weekend projections, many fans prepare themselves for this after reports of dismal test screenings and issues behind the scenes, which led to multiple rounds of reshoots and edits. So here's some of the actual reactions itself. So the trade's deadline, largely negative verdict,

which warns fans the movie struggles with inconsistent character portrayal subpar CGI and a lack of narrative direction. They also add, it's a film that has its moments but ultimately struggles to find its footing in the expansive ocean that is the superhero genre. Variety says the stakes are high and yet somehow not worth holding your breath over. The Hollywood reporter praises Moa but cautions. For the most part, Juan sticks to the video game aesthetic of his first film. Rupert Gregerson Williams returns as the composer as his score engages the audiences

and it fills emotion. Rupert Gregson Williams returns as a composer and his score encourages audiences to feel emotions the story doesn't inspire. Even the actors seem worn out by the ridiculousness

of this sequel. Surprisingly, the playlist was impressed and awarded it a B-minus, wrapping up their thought, they note. On the other hand, the DCEU goes out on a high note

and an in-style, even though this lacks substance at times, which is satisfying James Wan has delivered. However, Collider says Aquaman in the Lost Kingdom has 2.5 out of five and tells DC fans this isn't the wet fart of an ending that it seemed like the DCEU might be going out on, but it also shows that a decade in the DCEU never quite learned the lessons that it needed to. IGN, 6 out of 10. Aquaman in Lost Kingdom shines as a buddy comedy but gets dragged down by shoddy effects and a dull first act. It also says it seems that James Wan drowned in the sea of baffling plot lines. Let's hope this is the least of the, the,

Let's hope this is the last of these sequels. This franchise was a sinking ship. People keep farting all over it. What I will say is the one thing that I saw that I thought was very interesting, and I think telling, people always ask, like, what goes into rotten tomatoes, right? And I think a lot of times they'll see this score, and I talk about this all the time. If you see something, it's a 68%. Yeah.

and you're like, oh, or let's say 80%. You know, like, everybody loved it. It's not necessarily the case. 80% of those people said that it was passable. 80% of those people said it was over 3.5. That's all that is. Three out of five. So it's like, oh, but when you see it as an audience member,

you see the tomato everyone love it. It's positive. This is a perfect example. This tweet, this review is from Mike, Mikkel Zerilla, from a spinoff, who is an accredited critic on Rotten Tomatoes with a fresh score, which says, is it a good movie? Not at all.

But it can be entertaining enough to not make you regret spending two hours of your time on it. So it says, it's not good. It's not good, but I didn't hate watching it and I didn't feel like wasted my time. But it's a posit, but it goes into the 30. 3.5, it's a 7.

Yeah. It's a 7 out of 10 for him. That doesn't make it an 80%. It makes it hit. And that's what tricky is we're colorizing a black and white scale. And 38% of that liked it. Yeah. That's one of the ones who liked it.

So 38% might have given it exactly 3.5, which is, it's really tricky. The Rotten Tomatoes, I do think helps people overall look at a broad strokes thing. I just don't think enough people understand it. Yeah. I also think, though, knowing exactly what that is, I think that does change things. but for the most part, based off of what y'all are saying, this is still spot on as far as the 38. That sounds about right.

Like, there's, there is a little bit of enjoyment to be had for various of reasons, but not nearly enough to make it worth your time. To me, I give it two out of five, so exactly, like 40%. So that, no, yeah, you'd be in the negative. Oh, yeah, if I was a tomato score. Yeah, tomato score.

And like so, but to me, that kind of review, if I was going to say, look, it wasn't one of the, of those movies. I was bored, but it wasn't one of those movies. I'm like, oh my God, I can't stop. This is awful. Oh, I wasn't, it wasn't that. There are times when it just feels like work. I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, okay, I've seen this a million times over and it is so lazy. But, you know, it's whatever. I'm glad to have seen it the ones. I wish it was better. Yeah, that's it. It's like, you know, so, but that kind of review, I could, I could see myself saying a lot. Look, it's entertaining. the end was entertaining if you like watching the same

kind of things over, you can enjoy yourself, sure. And that's a positive review. Yeah. I mean, that's a, this guy, that's a negative review. It's a low bar, Michael. Is it a good movie? That's a neutral. That's a neutral review. You're not, it's not a neutral review when you say, is it a good movie,

not at all? Because that thing, that tomato is supposed to signify a good movie. So if you're opening with is it good, no, that's not a positive. But that's not at all is strong. But then to that point, I don't put that necessarily on the tomatoes. I put that on the dude.

100%. If that's how you really feel, then why is your score so high? Then you make it 2.9. Yeah. Because it's like because you said it's not, or 2.5, it's not a good movie. And they're asking you, if click on a tomato or rank it three, if you think it's a good movie enough to get this. And he says, it's not a good movie. Then that is a thousand percent on that.

Absolutely it is. Absolutely it's on him. But, yeah, there's a lot of different things in general that I think that this is just the end of it. And I really, once you see the post-credit scene, and we'll talk about more on our spoiler, the post-credit scene to me was like, they dropped the ball. They could have said goodbye in a different way. And I know most people were just like good riddens, don't let the door hit you on the ass. But like, it's, it's, they should have, they should have given something. You should have given something.

That's disappointing. It is. All right, I guess we're going to have some more stories that we're going to get into. We'll do this story, and then I'll tell you about some other sponsors, but let's do this story. Here's another story. This is Mark Cassidy, everybody over at comicbook movie.com. Marvel Studios is rumored to be developing a Young Avengers as a movie. Despite previous reports indicating that Marvel Studios was planning a Young Avengers Disney Plus series,

a new rumor claims that the project is now being developed for the big screen. Nothing has been announced yet. The Marvel's pretty much confirmed that Marvel Studios is planning some sort of Young Avengers project. Previous rumors have pointed to a Disney Plus series, but now we're hearing that the junior roster of Earth's Mightiest Heroes will actually assemble on the big screen. Right at the end of it, they have a scene that we all saw, and according to Daniel Rickman, Marvel is indeed developing a Young Avengers as a movie. It sounds like a series was the plan, but it said that Kevin Feigy would rather showcase significant events in theatrical settings. We're not sure how well a Young Avengers movie would be received by a general audience. when even established heroes are struggling in the current box office,

but Marvel Disney will likely be hoping that things have turned a corner by the time that this is ready to enter production. Kamala mentions Cassie Lang, aka. Stature in the Marvel scene, but who else will be on the team? It's probably going to be a while before we find out. And then, Imman Volani said, people really love these young Avengers, but I don't know if they actually read these comics,

not that they're bad. The chemistry between Kamala Miles and Sam is too good. I would love to see that trio in the MCU. Neither of those characters exist in live action, but I'm praying for it. I love Sam Alexander, one of the first interaction that they had. Also, when Sam tries to reveal his identity,

and Kamala was like, get it away from me, I love it. Man, she knows her stuff. She does. There's a couple things that she says that I go, maybe you can do that, but for the most part, I think this is a colossal error, depending on when it comes out. if they decide to do this soon

then that that's a really bad bad move they don't have as they mentioned as mark mentions in this article everything is just not delivering right now the marvel's delivering as much as i love manvallani that movie is is coming off of one of the the worst performance ever of a marvel movie and you're going to lead with one of the stars of the movie

as you're young avengers the other side is the other Young Avengers have not really been established yet. Now, the only counter argument I have to myself here is that if they, by the time they release this, do the fourth Spider-Man movie, establish a live-action Miles Morales, and then Miles Morales is going to be, you know, and depending on how the reaction goes to the casting and how the actor plays the character, and then it comes out, maybe. And depending on how the box office is out, it's not Spider-Man, but don't make it. this move yet until you have the receipts to the rest of the stuff because it's don't just do it

because like oh I like I like these I like these characters the audience is not responding to it the business behind this is not making sense it's not they're not responding to it so the TV show to me would make a lot of sense because if you build to it in the way that Mandalorian now was rumored to be a movie and now it's shot down it is let's use like I don't know sex in a city right? Sex and the City was established over five, six seasons,

whatever was, and then eventually became a movie and both movies did pretty well to the fan base wanted to see them on the big screen. And you can do the same thing and like whether it's the Mandalorian they were going to do it

or these other, the Sopranos did it, I think a little too late. Yeah. But they did it. Establish the characters and let the audience really get to know them

and then give them a movie. Mm-hmm. Here's why I push back on that a little bit. The movies have recently been very hit or miss, a lot of bad ones, right? The TV side of things have been abysmal. And I think the idea, like...

Abysmal and Loki 2 was an abysmal? Cool, and Wanda Vision. Great. That's two. Locke's season and one, Lokes in two. Winter Soldier did... It was mid. It was okay. It was okay. Yeah, but that's your opinion on it. It did well. Sure, at the beginning, because everybody was hyped up, and now with people having hindsight on it, they're like, it was... fine. But then keep going. Hawkeye, we had moments that we enjoyed.

Most people didn't like it. They really got pissed off because of Kingpin. Moon Night started strong trash. The Secret Invasion started strong trash. Like Miss Marvel, we loved it, but a lot of people didn't watch it. She-Hulk. We enjoyed it at times, but it had issues. I think specifically what they're doing

is they're still going to be doing TV, but if it's something that they specifically want to do and keep in mind that at least from what we know right now, with majors being out, that the Kang situation is over, and we already talked about how they might potentially be in Thunderbolts as like a foil to the Thunderbolts or something like that,

you're setting yourself up for a situation of if we have to replace Kang Dynasty as is anyway, then maybe that is a situation, or if we have to make a shift, it gives you another little avenue to kind of approach things. Sure, but it's not, but I'm looking at the business side of thing. Sure. Who's the audience right now?

I was going to say the big issue, and I think that the way the suits are looking at it is the word Avengers. And the problem is they see Avengers and they go, movie and the audience is going to see the word Avengers and go, who were these kids? Right. And Young Avengers is exactly that. Who are these kids? And if you like them, you're invested.

But the Young Avengers comic did really well because it's an audience that wants that. Whereas I don't know if there's an audience in movies that wants to see these characters, because if they did, they would have showed up for the Marbles. Especially right now. Because the best of those, in my opinion, and I love Kate Bishop, but I think the best of those Young Avengers is Amon Valani. So as much as I would love for this. them to get the budget worthy of a movie. I'd love to see $150 million young Avenger movie.

But they won't do that. They'll spend $200,250. Yeah. And then my concern is they'll drop $200 into it. And then when it doesn't make the $400 it needs to, then they'll blame the kids. They'll blame the lack of marketability. It'll be another thing that they can go like, oh, we failed. I get it.

And then they'll do it again. Well, apparently. I get it. I think what gives me pause and I'm like, I think it'll be fine. this isn't something that they're all of a sudden it's going to happen tomorrow. That's the question is when. That's what I started with.

I'm not that young. No, no, I read, but I hear what you're saying. But even let's say you got it like, if they're not even at pre-production, yes. They're just kind of toying around with things. We all know that it takes at minimum two years, but knowing that they're trying to re kind of tool everything, this ain't coming out for at least three or four years.

Well, that's what I said. Again, it depends on where it fits in the overall scheme of things. Absolutely. It's got to be after Thunderbolts just because that's out soon. And like you said, I do think there's going to be a Thunderbolts element with Young Avengers. And it would be a cool way to do a Thunderbolts follow-up. I think that could work. And I think that would warrant the budget.

I think that would warrant these characters having their time to shine. It could lead into Secret Wars in an interesting way. If you have another team, that way you've got more spectacle on screen, that could all work. My concern is how much money they throw at it. Yeah. And it's also, look, this is also speculation. It's not an announcement by them. And so that's why I would say, do not announce this until you've got to be able to tease it.

Let the audience marinate with it and find out if the audience is going to respond to it. They got to stop announcing stuff in general. Yeah, because it's like they're just right now I'm telling, I'm more so saying if this is coming out in the next one to three years, it's a bad move. Now, if you're able to build it, I think, again, a television series in the next one or three years, I think it makes sense. since it gives you chance to build it. If it's going to be a movie and it comes out in like, you know, five years or whatever it might be, you know, after you've built out a little bit more and you've peppered those characters inside of the movies, then let's see, but I still don't know who the audience.

I can already see because a lot of people were saying that if we're really going to do the X-Men, for example, that definitely one of the major event movies that needs to happen, like post-Secret War, since that's really what's on the docker right now, is an Avengers versus X-Men movie. And I can, and I can. And I can even see a situation where the young Avengers and the X-Men, typically, which are the younger members of the X-Men, they're all like, bro, why are they? What are they? You know what I'm saying? Like, I already see an avenue where some of that goes.

And who does she fight with? Including, exactly, because that happens with Beast. That happens with Logan. That's a whole other example of like, well, she's an Avenger, but also she's a mutant. And so all of that is something that I can see happening. And I guess that's my whole thing. Like you said, this isn't an announcement. This is all speculation.

None of this would be happening short of, like, four years. Well, would you agree then that if it was announced that it's, that they're going to do fantastic for next year, and then the next movie following is Young Avengers? Like, six months later. So you're talking about, within the next two years? In the next two years? Within the next two years.

Let's say it's supposed to come out. Let's say that they're able to make it work and it's going to come out in 2025, which is very unrealistic. Right. Because they would announce it already and all that stuff. Very unrealistic. But if it was 2025 or even 2026, early 2026. Unless this whole thing has been secretly worked on this entire time, so it's actually been fully developed. And then I would also be nervous

because of the era we're coming out of right now. That would bother me. But we said that about Superman. It was insane to think that because of the strike that all of a sudden you were just going to force Superman legacy out that quickly. You needed to give this time to marry to get your casting right, to get your script right, to get all of that. If they're doing all of that, it's fine. I don't have a problem with it, but that's the problem.

I don't, if what we're saying is this is already in motion, then I have a massive problem. Right. That's more so what I'm saying, because I just don't think that they've given the audience enough time. Because again, like I said, I don't think Marvel knows who their audience is right now. That's my, that's one of the biggest. I don't think Gen Z and younger really care to the scale that I think they want them to. I think that they need to age up things like Deadpool because the people that have been loyal to the market are 15 years older. we've been in this for a long time.

0.8 was 15 years ago. They need to start marketing to people that have been with Marvel, not the people they're trying to get new ones. You need to cater to new audiences, but you also can't rely on them completely. It almost seems one second once. It does seem like what they did

was that they said, we had this audience for a long time that was with us, but we are trying to capture a new audience, so we're just going to go after them for a little bit. And they'll just assume we're going to stick around. You guys, you guys will love this. And they're like,

we're not loving this. But we're not loving this. It's okay, but we're gonna try to get them right now. That's my concern. And it's like you can do it all. But they were for 15 years or for 14 years. That's exactly right. But now they're not.

And it's, yeah, I don't know. What you're going to say? Well, what I was going to say is, did you guys remember a couple months ago there was a study that came out that was saying that like Gen Z and Gen Alpha, like they don't want sex scenes. They don't want anything. They just want to see friendship.

Yeah. I have a feeling. I genuinely have a feeling. I genuinely have a feeling that somebody saw that article being like, okay, we hear that. How do we fix that, especially knowing we're trying to get that said audience? And they were already, it's clear.

They have left too many breadcrumbs that the Young Avengers were coming in some form of fashion. And we even said it right here, I guess apparently it was supposed to be a TV show at whatever point. I genuinely think knowing that they're trying to get the movie box office back. Yeah. If they're serious about this, somebody read that article and goes, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin.

That person should be fire. Bro. Friendship. We want friends. Look at that. At the end of the Marvel's, let's go have, let's go have Miss Marvel. Go find, you know, Kate and talk about Cassie. And then we're really going to do it.

And now it's not just that. It's Avenger. Think about it. The Avengers. How, look at 2012. What, look what the Avengers did. And it ultimately became end game. And then, and then we take the keys.

Kevin, if I get, mom, get out. Played my toys. Let me have this. Anyway, yeah. Yeah. No, that's what that's the fear. You just described the fear. Is someone seeing the word Avengers and some seeing this team being like they're ready?

No, no, no. The fear is that that's a great idea. $400 million. Yeah. But they can't do that anymore. Like they used to be, like so again, at this movie back in the day in 2014, and they're like, hey, we just had Guardians. And that really worked because no one knew who they were, but it's continuing off of everything that we're kind of setting up here. Let's try this young Avengers thing now.

at that point Marvel was putting out everything and you're like, give them a shot, they know what they're doing. They knew where their audience was. They don't know who to market to right now. They just don't.

And this would be, to me it would be a terrible decision, but I'm curious what you guys think. Do you think that if they did a Young Avengers movie now or within the next two or three years without really setting them up and that was just kind of the big thing

instead of setting them up through TV and just putting it out as a movie, could it work? Where do you stand on it? Let me know. Tell you where I stand, it's almost Christmas time, man, and you want to get yourself or someone you love a good gift. A.G.1.

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Another way to really, really help out the show, reward yourself in the process of doing so. Like I said, when I do live shows and people are donating super chats and everything, I am so grateful for it. but I always say, like, to me, people go, how can I help out the show? Get one of the sponsors. Why?

Because you're getting something for yourself, and you're getting something good. So I always put the links in the description, and I always pin the comment. All right, let's get to one more, well, two more stories here, and we'll move past this conversation today. This is a rumor.

Marvel Studios president, Kevin Feige, wants to bring one Sony Marvel character into the MCU, while fans and moviegoers have, grown increasingly indifferent to the multiverse concept. It's too late for Marvel Studios to change course, and the Multiverse saga won't conclude until Secret Wars arrives in a few years from now. They're still fun to be had with the idea of alternate realities, though,

and some rumored details about Kevin Feige's plans have found their way online. According to Scooper Cryptical for a qual, the Marvel Studios president is looking to bring a villain from Sony Spider-Verse into the MCU. There's no word on that, though it's said they'll have a cool but disheartening rule. Your guess is as good as ours as to what that means. However, you might want to recall that Spider-4 is rumored to bring the vulture back to Earth 616. Still, we can't help but hope the rumors refer to Venom.

In other good news, in other news, we may have some intel on how some future animation, live-action crossovers are going to work. The multiverse's dynamic nature will see characters seamlessly transition between animated and live-action forms as T's that go on to use Spider-Man across the Spider-Versersers as an example. Apparently Donald Glover appeared in live action rather than animation because he was trapped in a cage by Spider-Man 2099,

which allowed him to retain his original form. What this could mean is that if we see any animated characters make the leap to live action in the next Avengers movie, they'll become live action. I'm getting tired reading this. It's exhausted. As they said in the beginning, this is exhausting. The MC, the Multiverse thing, and you guys know me,

I'm a time travel like nerd. When it comes to multiverse stuff, is the thing that Marvel has almost kind of, because I was always very curious. I had this whole thing in my mind. I have this thing that I've created called line jumping, which is essentially what Loki did now. And line jumping was always like,

if you can close your eyes for a second, you can transfer your consciousness into a moment in your life and live a different timeline for 30, 40 years, but then you're like, oh, you know what? I want to come back to the moment right now, and I do it. Essentially what Loki did in that.

And I was like, oh, yeah, okay, now Marvel's doing it. So when you bring up the multiverse now, everyone goes, comic book stuff. And multiverse is like a, is it just a way more medium than that. It's a thing. So when they had the success with No Way Home, everyone's like, oh, this could really work. Yeah.

And the multiverse of madness, you forget how hyped people were for that because of the success. Made so much money and then it wasn't. But because of the success of No Way Home, you're like, oh, what are they going to do now? And that was the first indication of, oh, this is messy because it didn't tie it. What if they, even what if season one, they handled it really, really. really well and everybody thought that's going to be that's going to tie in that's going to make it meant nothing so and now it's been so sloppy I read all this about animated characters coming in and then they're going to do this and variance and I'm like this sucks now get rid of it just

end it it's not working but they're not going to because he said it they're too invested in it I think secret oars ends it I mean I don't think that carries on after so I mean that's what two years I don't think there's a lot 2026 You think they're going to actually push that? I think the first one will come out late 2026. I don't know. I think honestly, I know they have backup plans, but I think shifting away from Kang and getting rid of Jonathan Majors, I have a feeling that this is going to...

2027, 28. Things are going to get pushed. I don't know if people are going to be, like, still in. Like, I'll be, I mean, I'll be in because it's what I grew up on. But people my age, I don't know if they're still going to be in. Which is why they have to do what Young Avengers are going to bring in the kids. I understand what you're saying. Go back to that.

Wait, you said, do a Young Avengers to bring in the kids, right? So the argument was, let's do, and all, like, basically three women. Yeah, that's four years. But let's do three women to lead a movie to bring in the Barbie audience. And that did not work. Women did not come out to support that movie. Yeah, I still stand by the fact that there is, it wasn't going to be a cure-all, but the sheer number of women that had no idea because the marketing

on that was terrible because you're still in the middle of the strike and so you can only kind of put out the occasional kind of there's a there's a whole multitude of things that why that didn't work that notwithstanding um i think the big thing just talking about the multiverse you're exactly right you had too many people try and explain it too many different ways you had loki and everything that's happening with the different time branches you had america punching through multiverses and all that kind of stuff You kind of had the idea of Dr. Strange opened it up a little bit for Peter at one point. You have done too many avenues in which we access this. And that to me is where this has gotten too confusing.

There's not, I understand having read comics that there are this many avenues, but you have to understand that you can keep some of the complexity, but you do have to dumb it down a little bit for moviegoers because, not because they're stupid. No, because it's overwhelming. It's just a lot, especially when TV shows are also involved. It's one thing when you're that person that's read every single comic so then you can connect those dots. People aren't necessarily trying to do that with movies.

They will up to a point is what we're learning. And like you can do all of phase one and phase two and these are kind of loosely connected and someone might pop in to say hi. But now that it is this, it's as complicated as the time branches in Loki show. Right. People as a general whole can't do that. Yeah. So I don't know, man. It's exhausting. But when it comes to this story itself, Koi, with Spider-Man, I happen to agree with them. I hope it's venom. I hope that they use venom in a way. They already did it. If you remember at the end of No Way Home, his little his little simbia popped in. Yeah. That's the same as vulture popping up Morbi. It's very like, all right, well, I guess.

Well, no, but I'm saying you've opened the door. That's why they didn't do it because they're like, and now we're going to do this. They did it as a, and now this is open if we want to walk through. A counterpoint would be, I'm excited that they're confirming that they'd be live action, not like the animated beast in Marvels. But I would like to have characters look like the medium they're in. I enjoyed the hell of that Donald Glover Cambio, as you guys know. I think it would make a lot of sense to have like DC is doing actors voice, their animated counterparts that when they transfer over, they're in live action. And this seems to be confirming that to a point.

So I get that it would be confusing. I get that people are overwhelmed. I get that all those things. But if you're going to do it, this at least looks like they're looking ahead enough to go, okay, we need to make sure this is as digestible as possible. It's true. Loki Season 2 is what still gives me hope

that somebody understands how to do this right. Like they did that very, very well and explained it well. And even because we had a conversation, people didn't get it. It's because we did, we did, one, I was me and Brett, and we said, is Loki season two confusing? because the article was about the showrunner saying it's confusing on purpose until it's not.

And they're like, well, it's not too confusing if you were smart. Well, then you just called the showrunner dumb because the showrunner said that it's confusing on purpose. And by the end you get to it, it's not confusing because it's written very well and then you get to the end. And that was the point of it.

And if you can do that in a movie and you can do that to where, because Multiverse didn't do that well, a lot of these other things that have done and have not really done it well. And I think that, Yeah, they just got it, it goes back to the Aquaman conversation. Right.

Dude, some of my favorite movies are excessively confusing until they're not. Right. Inception. Anything everywhere all at once. Inception. That was actually then my beef with Tenet. There was never a point at which it stopped being confusing. And it almost felt like Christopher Nolan was trying to out Christopher Nolan himself.

Yeah, because Memento when you watch it is like, okay, what's happening? What is happening? But once it buttons up, but Tenant, it, I took three times for me to like fully grasp the tenant. You know what I'm saying? be a situation, but by the time we're about in the middle of Act 2 when things are really starting to pick up, it should click. And as soon as that, if that happens properly, then you can be as confusing as you want. I'm okay if you have this Act 3 as long as by the time the credits roll, I feel like

I was justified in my ignorance. As long as I feel validated that I'm not stupid. Can you think of an example just because using everything everywhere? I'd say Memento versus, have you ever seen Enemy, the Jake Jillenhall movie? I have not. So Memento nails that third act. Whoa. And it gives you just enough to, like, there's not a lot post revelation in Memento.

Whereas Enemy is an entire mystery movie. And then they tell you kind of what it is in the last five minutes. And then it cuts to credits and you get no validation. No, no, no. And it doesn't actually solve any questions. Kind of like what you're describing a tenant. So I'm okay to third act a la Memento where it's like, I don't have a lot of time after the answer. As long as I don't feel like when the credits roll, I was dumb.

I get that. I guess you have a much shorter runway if you want to do. do that, but like, you do, it's on risk. The, the maximum amount of risk with minimal amount of effort to correct it is to make sure by act two. So I remember the beginning of inception, you're like, okay, this is kind of cool. Okay, what do they mean by, huh? Like six cents. That's the second act. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? Like just enough that by the time you hit that point, you go, oh. Because they fully spell it out of the third, but you can figure it out of the second. Okay, I see you're saying. All right. Look, there's a lot. There's a lot that we talked about here

Today. Aquaman didn't deliver kind of the end of the DCEU. I'm very curious. Here what people are going to say in general about it. The critics reviews, the stuff of the Young Avengers, the multiverse being confusing, all of it, guys. It's one of the last few episodes that we're going to do here at Capes and Cals in 2023. We're going to close out the year with our episode of just the things that we, just the comic book movies and comic book things that have come out. We'll talk about that, and that'll be coming out next Friday. Is that still Friday?

It's still December? I think so. I think so. It's still December. Once time. It'll still be, exactly. So thank you. Thanks for joining us here today.

If you haven't already hit that subscribe button, please join us on the road. I'd like to thank my two co-hosts here. Winston A. Marshall, where can they find you? Find me at the Swaggy Blurred on the platforms, man. I've been doing my breakfast AM Newses again, which has been cool. I've been doing my CPT reviews. It's been cool. So come find me on the YouTube's on the Twitters.

I'm not going to call it X. Mama call it Twitter. I'm going to call it Twitter. Instagram, TikTok, all that good stuff. Got nothing but love for you. Happy holidays. Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, YouTube, at Koi, John Rowe.

I'm taking a break for the holidays, probably, but I'll be back on those in the new year. Excited to share stuff with you. There's no break here for me. We will have stuff up. But Monday, obviously, we're going to be off for Christmas, so there'll be no material on here on Monday.

Which I don't even necessarily know if it's true. I might actually put the spoiler review up on Monday, and who knows people are going to watch it, but I probably have to put it up because I don't know where to put anything else. I was going to say, I assumed it'd be up on Monday. I'll probably put it up on Monday. So, Merry Christmas.

You get to watch us piss all over the freaking awkward. And then Tuesday, Tuesday we'll have UAP Tuesday. Wednesday will be, I don't know where I'm going to air the episode of myself, Roka and Merle. That could either be Wednesday or Thursday. So look out for it. And my top lists are coming out too. Top 10 movies, top 10 TV, most anticipated, all that stuff's coming.

So thanks for joining us here today for Winston and Kuwait. I'm me. You're you. Bye.