The Kristian Harloff Show - Are we getting a PRACTICAL EFFECTS THING in Marvel's Fantastic Four? First look!

Episode Date: August 30, 2024

In this episode we discuss the very first image of the MCU THING from Fantastic Four! Will this actually be a practical effects suit? Will it be a combination? Or is it a rouse? Sean Gunn talks his involvement in the DCU. Thunderbolts, Captain America, Daredevil news. Are we getting the West Coast Avengers? This and more on todays episode! #MCU #DCU #MARVEL #superman #gunn #fantasticfour #thething #superhero  OUR SPONSORS: BILT: Earn points by paying rent right now when you go to http://www.joinbilt.com/BIGTHING THIS EPISODE SPONSORED BY BETTERHELP: Visit http://www.BetterHelp.com/BIGTHING today to get 10% off your first month.

The Fantastic Four, the thing. We're getting a practical thing, we think. Is that going to work? We'll talk about that much more on this episode of the Capes and Cowles show. Let's do it. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, Christian Harloff here. Winston, a Marshall, Coychondro. It is Capes and Cowles, big thing.

We're going to be diving into so much right now. And look, the idea of not only seeing the... first images of the thing and what that's going to be and the idea of whether or not they're going to use practical effects and if they are going to combine that with CGI and what that means overall, I think it's important to go over that and then we'll also be discussing how this is going to move it forward in the MCU, but in general what makes a good shared universe and how do you continue to do that? How do you continue to make that happen? What is the MCU doing right? What is the DCU starting to do, right? Because we're going to cover that story with Sean Gunn today and how

that is the different characters and how much that they actually care. And by doing that and having a team together that actually cares about what's happening inside of the narrative, are they on the right track? And should other franchises kind of take a page out of that? Because combining that and jumping back to Marvel, the other thing that I think we're going to discuss guys is the fact that we get into this new promo that was shown from the MCU. and the stuff that they're showing with the, not only the, what is it, the Thunderbolts, and then they've got stuff from Daredevil, and then they have other things from their first kind of real images from Red Hulk,

they show Ironheart stuff, they look like their plan. What they did so well for a while, that plan, guys, was the one that is coming back into play. And again, what DC is doing and other things. And the other thing that gets me nervous, which we'll cover in a second here, is also the, like, when they start introducing new things that nobody really knows about, right? Like, I know that the West Coast Avengers

is a thing that's being teased, that that's going to happen. And I guess they kind of teased that earlier, but are they going to make that work? So there's so much that we can really dive into today. So without any further ado, gentlemen, let's get into it. So we are back. If you guys watched the show yesterday from Roxy and myself and Brett,

we made the announcement that's starting, Sometime soon in September, the show itself will be called, not the big thing anymore, it will be the Christian Harlov show. However, the Friday episode will be Christian Harlov presents capes and cows, so you guys still know that we're going to be myself and my two co-hosts here, both Coy, Jandro, Winston A. Marshall, will be giving you everything we've been doing. Just the branding of the show is no longer the big thing.

It'll be Christian Harloff. And we're going live, guys. That's going to be fun. And Winston joked about it, and he's not wrong. We've got to make sure that we've been our best. behavior. No edits can save us now, Coy. But the internet loves the Snyder cuts. All right, guys, so we have a lot to discuss.

And the first thing is this thing, man. The Fantastic Four. All right, the Fantastic Four, the First Step set video reveals a first look at the thing and he's entirely practical. New photo from the set of the Fantastic Four, First Steps, has found its way online. And it features a look at Edmund Mosperop Bach Rock's thing. The biggest surprise being that he's practical, not. VFX. So in 2005 and its sequel, 2007's Fantastic Four, Rise of the Silver Surfer, Michael

Chickless, donned a practical costume to bring the thing to life on screen. It worked for the time, but in Josh Trank's 2015 reboot, Jamie Bell's take was realized with visual effects. So now we have a first look at the Fantastic Four First Steps, Ever, Lovin' Blue-Eyed Thing. Shockingly, he too appears to be practical. Well, as of now, we don't know if there's an actor presumably if it is Bach Rock in the suit or whether this is simply a stand-in meant to serve as a reference for actors and visual effects artists. Based on a few seconds of footage we have, it does seem like someone's in there.

This being a stand-in perhaps makes the most sense, though a practical thing whose face for example is enhanced with VFX could suit the Marvel Studios reboot. Still, it's worth remembering what Moss Bach Rock said this year. He said, in the past, I think they've done a suit. Michael Chickles wore a suit that apparently

was really uncomfortable, and I think we're past that, the actor said. It's a little kind of like cosplay, kind of amateur, that kind of stuff now with the technology that we have asked about his preparation he said I'm playing Ben Grimm who becomes the thing who was a man encased in rock I've just been looking at rocks what am I doing I don't know I've been reading a lot of comics it's kind of nice they gave me this kind of Marvel unlimited thing so I can just go on my iPad and go to any comic book that Marvel's ever released and that's kind of cool so there's the

shot itself you see them building it up it makes sense that they're that they're doing that they have somebody in the suit okay makes sense there's a lot to into this, right? It's like, that's pretty elaborate to put together if you're just going to use it as you could use, you could use, you know, those things that they use for Lord of the Rings or Star Wars or something that, or Planet of the Apes that this is what, or Avatar, this is what is representing the thing. And you don't actually build out a thing costume. I think it, they hit it in the article, Coy, I think that this is actually the suit, but I think they're going to enhance it with C. I think what they need to do is Jurassic Park style, which I think holds up better than anything

today, which is insane considering that was 90-something, is you make it practical 80% and then 20% augmentation. You blend visual effects and practical effects. And if you look at even like Thanos, they use mainly visual effects, but they had a physical representation of like the size, the scope like you're talking about with Star Wars. But if you've got something as tangible as the thing where he's going to be. interacting with everyone. He needs to feel like family. There's a certain element of Thanos being larger than life that you can escape some of that. But thing needs to be able to

feel like just as practical as anyone around you. So you want the lighting to be perfect. You don't want there to be like those weird hard lines that make it like stand out of frame. The thing is so essential to buying any of the fantastic four. So I think it's really smart to make something practical that that is as elaborate as you've talked about and then modify with visual effects on top of, but with today's modern technology. So I think that what Evan Moss-Brock might have been accurate in saying like we're not going to go that way but it might have turned into some blend of the two to get this and I think that's going to land way better what do you think Winston I mean I 100% agree um I think that like one of my main beefs that I've had with like the

idea of like AI for example in like a similar kind of uh narrative is the idea of oh you're just letting AI write your paper AI just major script AI just what it like that's to me nonsense it should really be, like Coy said, 80% your work, and then this is the hammer. Instead of a screwdriver, you're using, like, a power drill to screw the screw it. That's what it should be.

So it really should be build a suit that makes sense that the person is actually moving around, and then you are able to add the little things that make it feel even more just like popping out of a comic page. And not just with comic books, but in general, when you also throw in the fact that

you know, for people that are paying attention to box office right now, Alien Romulus is crushing, and it had a much smaller budget. That's because you're not paying a billion dollars to do a VFX. Right. You still have them, but you worked within a budget that makes sense of doing practical things, and it looks better. It feels scarier. Like, it just has more to it.

I want 100% agree with what you're saying, and I think we can elaborate even further with, like, the volume is a great example. And I'll bring up Star Wars because Christian hasn't yet this episode, but like the volume when used in the background, we see a lot of DPs not how to shoot it and then it's just like this weird still frame and it feels really stagnant.

But a lot of people don't realize how much of the Batman was shot in front of the volume because Greg Frazier shot his movie using that key to find his frames and was able to make an elaborate film. But that was that 80-20 split. The Batman doesn't feel stilted by it, feels enhanced by it. But I feel like a lot of these TV shows

feel like they can't move because of the volume. Yeah, it's true. I mean, like you look at House of the Dragon, they balance it. It's a good balance of the volume for sure. But I think that I'm hoping that this is actually a practical thing. With CJ, you should absolutely enhance a suit with CGI if you can. 100%.

Do you make it look better? And if there is, as Evan was saying in that interview, where it just can come off a little campy, yeah, you didn't have the type of technology back then to be able to fix it in the way that they can today. So I really do hope that they do that because I think it also will help the other action. actors around them. Now, you do have that thing where, as I just mentioned, you can be like,

well, here's some people in the suit. And they got the ball. Like, look, I bring up Avatar again. Avatar, when you look at the behind the scene stuff, and you look at Zoe Zaldana and Sam Worthington, they're in it. They're locked in. But they're still in the gray suit with the things all over their heads and everything, too. This is something to me, if I'm standing next to a big freaking orange hulking thing, I'm getting into it. a little bit more. So absolutely. I guess it also from the body horror element that people.

What you call me? You heard what I said. So like just the idea of the body horror element that Ben really has to go through for a while before he starts to feel comfortable in his body, you need that actor to feel like this is terrible. I can't fit through a door. I am crushing, you know, the bed, like whatever. by having the practical, not the CGI of just sitting, it's not that, you know, Evan isn't a good enough actor

that he could do it without it, but there is just something about that that's just going to hit differently. And you'll be able to tell in little subtle things in his performance by making him have to deal with that. I am getting excited for this movie, though. More and more, I was already excited for it, but I'm getting excited.

I love the cast. I love the idea of what, you know, they're going to finally do with this cast. I love that it's period. I love that it's not an origin story. I love that it's in a different dimension. I love they're able to kind of play in a different place and introduce new things because they are really going to lead with this group.

They're going to be crucial to the MCU moving forward. But am I wrong to be getting excited for this story? Should I wait? I think we're in a really unique position with Marvel with this next wave because it is post, oh no, how do we fix this? And also with the time to reevaluate things. I think the next few films are that make or break we keep talking about. And I think Fantastic Four was a lot.

lot like X-Men where they've been they know they'd get these rights back at a certain time. They've known they're building up to this. So it's not quite like Cap where you have to reshoot the film and kind of juggle things. It's not quite like Thunderbolts where I feel like those reshoots were like 30% of the film to adjust. I think Fantastic Four was a lot like X-Men where once you have these Fox characters, they've been hedging their bets. They've known the importance of this.

They've been leading up to it. And then you've got the added sauce of, oh, no, this has to be the most important thing. I think what's so interesting is you've got Superman and Fantastic Four both playing a game a chicken two weeks apart in July next year. And both of them aren't going to blink. So they're both like, we got to come out and make an A product because these are reestablishing our brand, establishing the DCU, reestablishing the MCU, and both properties really need it. Now, nothing is as important as Superman to, I would say, the studio system because without Superman

doing well, DC doesn't do well, without DC doing well, WB doesn't do well, without WB doing well, we lose a fifth for major studios and then the entire industry can crumble. That's my fear. Whereas Fantastic Four is a giant, giant weight on the entirety of the largest cinematic universe operating right now, which almost singularly helps keep movie theaters open. So to not be hyperbolic, next July is like the craziest thing since Barbenheimer, but we know it going in as opposed to going into Barbenheimer. We just thought they were going to be two big tent pole movies. These have the weight of we have to be big. We are going to be busy. We are going to be very busy next year. No, I mean, next year is going to be crazy. I'm telling you, this, this show in

particular is going to be very busy next year with all of the DC stuff coming out you know whether it's the Superman movie the animated stuff the news in general with that you've got three well they say four but three movies in for the MCU you got some TV stuff what do they have TV wise next year let's see iron heart oh right and then Wonder Man wonder man Wonder Man which didn't get the confirmation update we thought we will but it's still on schedule Maybe the vision Oh, right. You've got a lot of information about that show coming out.

It's not in yet. And Born again has, doesn't drop this year. Oh, that's next year too. Born again is spring and what if season three. So there's five potential. There's a lot of stuff going on there. I think they were the 97 as opposed to drop next year. Oh, yeah, confirmed that within a year of the last one ending.

So six. Well, we're going to be busy. We're going to be very busy. And so I'm telling you guys, people are going to be able to pay their rents because we're going to be doing so much stuff. Hey, come on. And I'll tell you, you want to pay some rent and you want to do it in a way that you're going to get some rewards on it.

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Make sure to use our URL so they know that we sent you. You got to joinbuilt.com slash big thing to start earning points with your rent payments today. All right. Thank you to our friends over at Built and Bealth. our help. Thank you once again to our wonderful sponsors who've been part of the show. I always put the link in the description so make sure you go and you check it out. Okay, you know guys you mentioned before a few times through that conversation we were having about Fantastic Four, Thunderbolts came up, Daredevil came up, you know,

so there's a couple of new reports on both those plus Captain America and look at the new, the official look of the Red Hulk. Let's get into that. Marvel Studio shares its first official HD look at Daredevil Born Again, Iron Heart, Thunderbolts, and Red Hulk. Marvel has officially released a new promo celebrating the company's 85th anniversary. It includes HD footage from Captain America, Brave New World, Daredevil, Born Again, Ironheart, and Thunderbolt. Earlier this month, Marvel Studios tweeted and deleted a new promo celebrating 85 years of Marvel. It was mysteriously pulled after a few minutes.

Fans wasted no time, taking screenshots on a shortened version. version of the video which later did the rounds online. Thanks to Entertainment Weekly, we now have official HD version of the spot, which contains new footage from Captain America, Brave New World, Daredevil, Born Again, Iron Heart, and Thunderbolts. Trailers for each of those leaked online following Comic-Con and D-23, though it's always preferable to see shots like this firsthand rather than through the lens of someone else's camera.

So what do we see? There's a great shot of Florence Pugh, no Julia Roberts, but she's still Florence Pugh, as Elena Bolova. Sebastian Stan as Bucky Barnes, Wyatt Russell, as John Walker, Hannah, John Kaman as Ghost, and David Harbor as Red Guardian in Thunderbolts. Then we have a blink and you miss it. Snippet of Charlie Cox.

Then we have a blink and miss shot of Charlie Cox, suited up in the red costume in Deer Devil Born Again, and Dominique Thorne's Reary Williams taking flight in Ironheart. The best is safe for last. Do we have Ironheart in here? They didn't put Ironheart in here. So you know that Terran sent us this thing, right? Do you want to watch and react to it?

No. Okay. Where is it? They don't have that thing in it. All right, that's fine. They did not post the image of the Iron Heart one here, but you can see it in that celebrating of 85. It's up there right now.

And then you got the best to save for last. Though, all right. But now you're getting a lot of error now. Coy. Air? It's better. It's a little better, but it was like, I was getting way more,

getting way more background noise than I did before. Let me just check that. How's my frame otherwise? Let me see it. Let me see if you are, oh, I have to redo you. Oh, I'm so sorry. Yeah, my phone literally overheated as I left

and it did that red thing, like, let your phone cool. So I'm like, well, shit. But my iPad actually looks better on my end and I have the same setup. Yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. This won't take long.

Okay, great. Sorry about that, guys. All right. On the N.V. Okay, you're back. All right. So let's see. So let me just get this shot of Harrison Ford.

We did it, okay. The best to say for last, though, which is now likely to be a familiar look for many of you as Harrison Ford transforming into Captain America Brave New World's Red Hulk. I often look back onto the early 60s in the famous Marvel bullpen with Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, creating Spider-Man, Avengers,

The X-Men, and Fantastic Four. Marvel Studios president, Kevin Feige, can be heard saying in the video, House of Ideas, it's called that for a reason. So you can actually see the new promo. I'll post that in the description here. But all these things kind of popping up. You got the Red Hulk.

You got, I didn't get a chance to see the Ironheart one, but you saw the Daredevil one. You see the Thunderbolts. We just mentioned it before. You know, this is a massive, 2025 is going to be massive for them. But Winston, out of that and that promo in general, what stands out? Um, I've always said that, like, I mean, the two things that I care about the most, I think Red Hulk is such an interesting character and a reput Harrison Ford, uh, which is great recasting in my opinion. Uh, you know, obviously RIP to William Hurt. Um, that has me the most excited. And then Ironheart. I, I know that you felt that Riri was a little shoehorn in the Wakanda forever, but I thought that, you know, Dominique just did such a fantastic job. And I just became instantly fascinated with where this character was going.

Those are the two things that immediately stood out. I'm obviously excited for Daredevil Born Again. But I think I already kind of know, especially since they've already told me, that this is a continuation that makes sense for the MCU. I already know what I'm getting. So I'm not pressed to be like, ooh, what's next? I know. If they're being true to what the show was previously, great.

I'm excited for more. I want something new that has me peek. So those are the two that stand out to me and especially not having gone to D23. I know Koi already got a chance to live with a lot of this footage. That was cool to see. Yeah, Koi, they keep these things that we've seen, you know, the trailers and stuff that you saw at D23.

I mean, we've had this discussion on the show before. Like, these things get leaked. And now high-deaf things are getting leaked to this thing. This thing got posted earlier than it was. supposed to. I mean, is it even worth it to try to hold things if you have them anymore? I think it's really interesting because you need to make things exclusive for people that are paying to go to these events, but I also think there should be like, we've talked about having a trailer and then a scene. I think a scene out of context leaked online is going

to do way less numbers than our trailer because a trailer is made to be presented. I would start doing a one, two punch and have a trailer in the format of the presentation and then a scene and then put out the trailer. That way you get your cake and eat it too. You get all the press. You get all the buzz. You get the finished formatted thing. But then the people in the room feel like they got to see something special. I would also start pivoting to more live stuff. I mean, we still to this day talk about Loki in that room. Tom Hiddleston being Loki. That can't be replicated on camera. We can watch it and be like, ooh, cool. But the people that were in that room got to live a thing. So I think they need to really go back to more of an amalgamation of trailer, footage, live

experience. Like I got to see Deadpool and Wolverine in the same room as the creators of the thing. And I'll never, you know, be able to replicate that. I think more of those experiences might cost a little more fly-out actors, but everyone in the room won't feel shortchanged by it being like, and public. So I think you do need to get this footage out because I hate the fact that like Thunderbolts, images are all over the place. I've avoided the trailer, but how many things have I seen scrolling on Twitter just because of the nature of the internet? I will say this though, because I don't know, The reason, Winston, I don't know if you've been paying attention at all, but the last two weeks, Roke and I have been going back and forth on Monday episodes about prime Julia Roberts versus Prime Florence Pugh.

And I will tell you this. You guys know where I stand on Julia Roberts, but I will tell you this. In this picture, Florence Pugh looks smoking hot. I know. I mean, that's a pretty good picture. I'll tell you that. Hey, bro, you're not going to even like this, but the order going to go. If we're going to talk about star white ladies, it goes, Florence Pugh, Sandra Bullock,

Julia Roberts. I know you love you some Julia Roberts. And she is gorgeous. But Sandra Bull, if you're talking 90s white ladies. I'm going to give me an argument that, to me, that is an argument I'm going to have between Julie Roberts and Sandra Bullock. I don't, I think Florence Pugh is a phenomenal actress. I think she's great.

I'm not, she's attractive. She's pretty, but in that picture, look out, look out. Anyway, as Sylvia Dante would say,

I don't know, pretty good. Pretty good. Either way. And by that you mean your daughter. Yes. My daughter, my daughter, she's hilarious.

What did she? She said something the other day was just like, unbelievable. So let's get back to these pictures, though, man, because both, joking aside, the Thunderballs picture of them,

that tone that they're trying to set. I still haven't seen that trailer. Nobody here has seen that trailer right now. Nobody's seen that at all. And well, yeah, because we had the big conversation last week about whether or not we thought it was going to be out in December

or whether we saw, that was the whole debate the three of us have. We still don't really know. And Winston made some good points on that over when it could come out. But what about? The Red Hulk, we've seen so many damn times. It's not that.

Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, Corey. I've got a cool thing where I finally have a comparative like you do. You talk about your friends like back east where you now are, but you have your friends that are outside the industry that you can kind of like ping to see how like the temperature is. My dad is a huge comic book fan. He got me into comics. Like he's a big reason why I'm in this world.

So he cares about the source material, but he's not on the internet because he's happy. So he actually didn't have any access to any. We just saw Deadpool-Moverine yesterday. He didn't have a single thing spoiled. It's been out for like five weeks. that off the internet. So I got a cool moment where we were watching the Brave New World trailer, and it was that first trailer where he's just the Red Hulk's a pop at the end of the trailer.

So he didn't have any knowledge whatsoever. So I was sitting there watching it getting to be like, cool, espionage trailer is my dad? Because that's like the most USA networks looking movie. It's like, yeah, guy stuff. But I was like, is this pop going to register at the end? And that was as big of a pop for him as like Channing or Wesley in the movie. Like he got so loudly excited at that one. So I think the audience.

is if he's any barometer, we'll be ready and excited for Red Hulk to that scale. That's good. Well, Winston, hold that thought because I just thought of something. Winston, did you hear what I heard in that whole thing? Some about pop? Somewhere, there is a genre that exists and loves comics and hates the internet. What happened?

No, no, not what happened. How do we get him on the show and replace you? That's what I'm saying. Like, how did the apple stray so far from the tree? I don't understand. Is that your mama side? generational. Hey, hey. It's generational. You guys know how much I hate the internet. I don't think Koi's dad's much older than I am. I think I think that that's probably what. It's generation.

There's wisdom and age that I've not yet gleaned. No, clearly not. But nonetheless, I think that that's a good point that you make though with your dad is people going to get excited for it, whether or not we've seen it a million times over or not. People will still get hyped. I think that to go back to our previous conversation, what we were talking about, about with the fact that we're going to be busy because there's just so much stuff coming out to reiterate what we've discussed. It is crucial for Captain America, Brave New World, to get people like your pops and other people excited about this because it needs to be a hit for them in order for them to go Deadpool Wolverine, Captain America, Thunderbolts,

fantastic for Avengers. You know, that's what they need to do. A new ten-foil hat theory. Do you remember a while back, like six months ago, when there was that rumor about Deadpool Wolverine having an insane post-credit scene that would blow our minds that was like, that rumor was everywhere. I think they moved the post-credit scene from Deadpool and Wolverine over to Thunderbolts

so that it gets that extra push that Deadpool didn't need. And I think that might be as early as that movie. I think we might get Downy Doom footage as a post-credit scene that would have originally been on Deadpool. And now they get butts and seats of Thunderbolts because Deadpool didn't need it. Well, I think that the post credit was the thing that... Thor.

Huh? The Thor thing. Maybe I was going to say that Ryan released on social media that they just cut it of literally of Gambit and then the portal thing. I'm sure you guys have seen that at this point, haven't you? Yeah. But I think that was in the last... In the post credit scene, that scene is in a small TV on the bottom left. So the scene that we saw full size, that scene was playing during his Chris Evans scene.

So I think that the post-credit scene, if it's mind-blowing, changes Marvel, might have been the Dr. Doom announcement. They realized they should do the day-in-date with Doom at SDCC. Because remember, that came out Thursday. And then, you know, Saturday was the Doom reveal. What if they already filmed something with Downey Doom? And they put that on Thunderbolt so that people that were like, wist-washy hear that the biggest post-credit scene in MCU.

Like, they might have just moved it. Maybe. The only reason why I think that might have been tricky is because the whole conversation, If you're watching, you are a casual fan and you're watching that scene with Happy. And then Downey does show up at the end. It's confusing. Fair. And also that there was the conversation that Downey was asked to be in that movie.

He was asked to be in Deadpool 3 and he turned it down. So I don't know if they necessarily had that planned out. And I think that I don't know why you ruin the reveal of Doom not in Fantastic Four. I hope they save it. It wouldn't make any sense, honestly. unless you were like you've you've found a way to get Julian Julian's I don't follow his career he's still with us right he didn't he didn't as far as I'm just making sure that I'm not like oh you know

Julian you know you don't want to bring him in and then here comes Robert and just like nip tuck baby nip tuck that I will know I remember great great show but the show's been off the air for a long time yeah they're doing they're doing a reboot oh okay but but I just I just just in the sense of like Like maybe that was it. You're seeing all these variants anyway. And then he obliterates that doom or obliterates the fan four stick doom. And then here he comes in instead of like a council of dooms, like kind of making fun of the council of pangs if you're deciding to go away from it.

You know, it's like there was only one doom. Like something like that. I thought that could have also been interesting. But I think it makes no sense to ever introduce doom except through the Fantastic Four, but then show how he. affects the rest of Marvel. All right, let's jump to DC. Superman, Sean Gunn teases a new take on Maxwell Lord, says comparing the MCU and the DCU roles is apples and oranges.

Sean Gunn, who is one of the few actors to appear in both Marvel and DC movie universes, weighs in on making the jump from the MCU to the DCU. Sean Gunn played Craglin in the Guardians of the Galaxy movies, taking the former Reaver from a supporting player to a full-fledged member of the team over the course of the trilogy. Gunn also played Weasel in the Suicide Squad, and he's set to reprise the role for the Creature Commandos animated series before making his live-action DCU debut as Maxwell Lord and his brother James' upcoming Superman reboot. While speaking to the rap at the Fan Expo Chicago, Gunn was asked about making the jump from the MCU to the DCU, and he feels that because he's now part of a very different shared DC universe under his brother and co-D.C. Studio CEO Peter Safron,

comparing his experience is like apples and oranges. He said, I came into the whole process of working at Marvel once the machine was kind of already up and running smoothly and doing well. DC, I've done Suicide Squad, but now they're kind of overhauling it and it's new ever since my brother took over as head of the studio. It's sort of been a new process for them. So it would be, it's really kind of true like comparing apples and oranges. Underneath it all, working with my brother is more similar than it's different to other things. So the fact that I was working with James in Marvel and James in DC makes it actually, there's a lot more similarities in. terms of process. Gunn was also asked about his take on the villainist Maxwell Lord, who he declined

to go into too much detail. He did reveal that this version of Lord won't be based on any live action portrayals that fans have seen before. It's all from written materials with things that we're figuring that we're looking at. Superman also stars Corrin Sweat, Rachel Brosnahan, yada, yada, yada, that's it. All right. So you see this, you hear this. Start with you, Coy. What do you make of these comments by Sean Gunn? I think it's really smart to get ahead of the comparing to other Maxwell Lords, especially with Pedro Pescal playing him so recently. And the Pedro Pescal take was a lot more 80s cheesy villain than I think they're going to go. I think it worked for the take they were going for. I don't think it was a bad performance.

I just don't think that's how most people interpret Maxwell Lord. Maxwell Lord's a bit more nuanced. He's a bit more. He's very much about himself, but he's not necessarily a villain. And I did feel like the Pedro Pascal take was a lot more villainous, a little bit more on the nose mustache twirley. Again, worked for the 1984 take. But Maxwell Lord is involved with like Justice League International. Maxwell Lord is more of a businessman that wants his best interest in heart. So I think in not saying anything about his take, but also saying like, well, don't count on those that you've seen before. It's kind of a clean way to say I'm doing something different without giving too much a way because it's a year away.

And I also think that I know people don't love that James works with the same people. But as we've now seen with Deadpool and Wolverine, those guys are three best friends. And why wouldn't you want that if you did have any sort of power to? And Sean Gunn was an actor of his own, like, you know, he was in, I think, Gossip Girl and a few other things before the James Gunn directing. Killmore Girls thing. I know it was a G-girl show. Killmore Girls before the gun. You have your white lady shows, Corey.

It's on me. I mean, all quippy dialogue blends together. together. But I think before guns started directing all this stuff, he was his own thing. And I was really surprised. I hosted him at a fan expo and we talked about Maxwell Lord tiny, tiny amount. And he hadn't even been confirmed yet, but I was like, hey, man, I don't want to know anything that isn't announced, but like, what do you think of the character? Like, let's just talk about Maxwell Lord, because it was all but known. And I love that his take seemed to be he's self-serving, but never at cost of others intentionally. He just only

thinks of himself. And that makes them more interesting than just being a poor man's Lex Luther, because Lex Luther thinks he's doing the right thing. Maxwell Lord thinks he's doing the right thing for himself. And I think that's going to be fun. So I think Sean Gunn's nuanced of enough an actor to play that. And I think that's what he's trying to say by not saying, don't think we're going to see another Pedro Piscale. Winston? Yeah, the 84 Maxwell Lord, like, felt very Batman 66, you know, felt very, Oh my God, I had a perfect analogy for it of just of the ridiculousness of it where like, I agree with coy.

It fits for what you're going for. But it's just not in my opinion. Oh, Justin Hammer. They essentially made him Justin Hammer of the GCEU. And I just don't think that that works when you go and look at like the history of them. But again, variance, multiverse, all that kind of stuff. You can make the argument. that's just in that universe, that's what it looks like.

But I do prefer what Koi was alluding to a Maxwell Lord that, like, is evil at times by the nature of just the things he's doing, but not because he's Lex Luther. And I am the greatest thing ever. And I'm going to do evil because I can and blah, blah, blah. It almost falls a little more towards doom with a little less ego of like, I'm the only one that feels like I can make this happen. You know what I'm saying? and Lex likes to say that at times,

but then straight up, it's just like, I don't care. Like, that's the difference is that Lex genuinely being that insanely smart, his ego always gets in the way. And for Maxwell, it can, but like he, like Coy said, Justice League International, the fact that like if you go look at anybody that's seen Justice League Unlimited before and that take,

and now he's actually watching over, oh my God, that I'm trying to think of the name of the team they have Wind Dragon and essentially their version of the Wonder Twins and stuff like that. He's essentially, I want to say they called them the ultimate. Yep, they were the ultimate. Wow. Look at that.

Deep cut. Nice point. My brain going, man. But that same thing. He was trying to make things work out and then it was like, ooh, I actually may have done the wrong thing. Like Maxwell has layers. I didn't really necessarily feel the layers

there in 84. So I, Sean Gunn will crush it. I'm not worried about that whatsoever. And anybody that gets upset about people working with their friends or with other artists that they've worked with before, then talk to me about Scorsese and DiCaprio. And same thing with, you know, De Niro and things like that, where they have made incredible films, things that we're still talking about to this day. Like, it makes perfect sense that you would use people that you know are going to do good art. Also, don't watch any YouTube channels because that's how this came together.

It's totally true. But look, let me start, let's start with that first, is that if I'm James Gunn, and I have a, and my brother is an actor that is around all the time, Thanksgiving, Christmas, and I think that he's a good actor, and I like working with him, and I like being around him, I don't care what the internet's going to say, I'm going to put my brother in movies. And especially if he's doing a good job, right? but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's unfortunate for Sean Gunn because any time he gets a role in one of his brother's movies regardless of how good he was good in the Guardian's movies you're going to say he's putting his brother in another movie

where he could have put, I mean the truth is he could have put somebody else in that role he could have and he could have found somebody that probably needed a job in order to do it Sean Gunn doesn't need to do it but Sean Gunn is probably going to be pretty damn good in the role What I take from all of this that is very encouraging, and I think as a DC, if you're a DC fan, you should be encouraged. This is where Marvel was when they were started.

This is where I'm constantly talking about Star Wars needing to be, and they're nowhere near where DC is right now. DC has a bunch of people together that care about these characters. They care about where the story is. They care about the lore. Now, this is to me an obscure character. This is an obscure character that I don't know. Not to you guys, because you're familiar with the comics and everything, too, but to the casual fan in general, this is an obscure character, but not to them.

They're treating this character and visualizing and rationally this character the way that you two guys do. And everything that you just said is probably conversations that they're having together about, oh, remember when he did this and this issue, and could we make this happen here? That's the type of, whether you're an actor in the movie or whether you're the executive in the movie, That's the kind of team that you want in these properties. And if you're in, you should be encouraged by these conversations. Even if you're skeptical of it, you should be encouraged because that means they're putting love into it.

For those that, you know, are on YouTube a lot, I'm a big fan of the theorist channels. So at Game Theory, Film Theory, Style Theory, Food Theory, they did one specifically about Star Wars, since you've kind of opened that door here. And one of the things that isn't being handled properly and has been an issue was it's not just, just, hey, we're just kind of doing whatever and like we're retconning things and whatnot. It's the idea that if you look at the success of, say, the MCU, there was very little time jumping. It was kind of like it was this and then this, or this was happening at the same time. You might get the one, hey, let's talk about cap because it's relevant right now, but you've got steps that go to an ultimate byproduct at the end, right? Star Wars, part of the problem was, especially for those that aren't die hard, so they know a lot of it.

You not only are just throwing random things in, it's like, well, here's, you know, episode seven, but then here's solo. But then here's, you know, episode eight, but then here's Rogue One, but then also Mandalorian and your time jumping everywhere and your counteract. You're not making things connect necessarily the way that you need to, and you're losing people in that regard on top of your writing stuff that isn't coming together. cohesive, it's not good writing and things like that. I think that's the more important point, to be honestly. I think that's... I was just going to say it's a collective. I think you're... The main thing

is the writing. But if you're going to throw in confusion on top of that... Yeah, it's got to be well thought out in order for you to say, like, I think we're saying the same thing where it's going to be timed out, even if you're going to go back in the past, it's got to all... There's got to be a rhythm to it. There's got to be a reason

why you're doing it. Which is why I brought up, say, both Captain Marvel and Captain America when you did that, it made it direct, it was like, oh, here's the Iron Man movies. Here's Hulk. Here's Thor. We're clearly going to the Avengers. You can't just say, ta-da, here's Captain America.

You got to explain, okay, well, here was the first Avenger. He showed up. And then the end of the movie is, oh, Cap, we pulled you out of the ice. As most of us know, we pulled you out of the ice. There's some crazy stuff going on, man. Like, it made logical sense. I think the Star Wars thing also is a lack of feeling like it builds on each other. And I think that's what we were feeling with D.C.

Sorry to interrupt. I just, this, this really struck me when you were saying we just did. The DC universe at the end, people stopped going because they didn't feel like it added up to anything because none of it felt cumulative. And I've been feeling like that about Star Wars because I really do like when I love Star Wars. Like when Star Wars hits, it's such a special experience. Like I can't get over how cool it is when a lightsaber turns on and you feel that. Like the sound of a Thai fighter will always be one of my favorite sounds. But I haven't felt that cumulative build like you get with the MCU.

And like a lot of people are feeling as the DCU, EU went away. You need this cumulative feeling to feel the power of many. Yeah. Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no. Don't do that. But, like, that's why that show, I think, didn't feel like anything.

Because that show never felt like it related in any way that built on what we'd gotten to before, except for, oh, look, that's a Sith. I have to Google who that is. It actually took away from some of it, too. And it, but that's a whole other conversation. Hold on conversation. Let's get to this story here. All right, this is a rumor. Vision Disney Plus series could feature a member of the West.

Coast Avengers? Following on from reports that Elizabeth Olson might return as the Scarlet Witch for the Disney Plus Vision series, we are hearing that members of the West Coast Avengers might also appear. We've got word that Avengers Age of Ultron star James Spader is set to return as Ultron, and the trade report strongly hinted that Elizabeth Olson will reprise her Wanda Vision role as Wanda Maximoff, aka the Scarlet Witch. Daniel Rickman followed up the claim, claiming that Olson was a lock for a Marvel project that will be filming in 2025. It's worth noting that Avengers Doomsday is also beginning shooting next year. And it mentioned that the Vision show will have elements of the West Coast Avengers. Well,

now the Scooper is reporting that the member of the West Coast Avengers might feature in the Wanda Vision spinoff. This chapter of Earth's Mightiest Heroes was formed by Hawkeye in the 80s. And while numerous members have come and gone throughout the year, the original lineup was Vision, Mockingbird, Wonder Man, Tigra, and Iron Man with Rodi in the armor. If this is accurate, it obviously suggests that the groundwork will be laid for the team's formations down the line and possibly even a West Coast Avengers movie or series. Found out earlier that this year that the show had been revamped with Star Trek Picard executive producer Terry Matlis now on board a showrunner.

The series is currently on track for 2026 premiere. Matlis, who worked on Picard, is said to have greatly impressed the top brass at the studio. Marvel Chief Kevin Feigy, who is an avowed Treki, even recently appeared with the Metallis on a two-hour episode of the Star Trek podcast trexperts. Betney will reprise his role as vision and the story is expected to folk on ghost vision exploring his natural purpose in life. The finale of Wanda Vision revealed that the vision we've been spending time with over the course of the season was actually one of Wanda's constructs but the real white vision

was rebuilt by sword and programmed to track down and kill the Scarlet Witch. This version of the character a way to parts unknown towards the end of the episode after declaring himself to be the true vision. As for Wanda we saw the power sorceress as she was laying waste to the Illuminati and bringing a mountain town on top of herself in Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness. Previous Vision Quest rumors claim that Vision's children Vin and Viv would make their MCU debuts in this show, but we have no idea which, if any, ideas actually came to be. All right, so there's tons of stuff inside of this vision thing.

The Vision show has really taken on a new life recently, I guess, pun intended. but like there was a brand new report that came out as they mentioned that not only is she coming back that she might not even play Wanda and that she might be playing something else but there's more and more reports like it was like when you look at the we always check comic book movie for the stories that we're going to go in and and as of two weeks ago I don't know if they saw anything about this vision series now it's every other story so to me is when there's smoke there's fire this is going to be this is means that it's been ramped up they're really really pushing this forward. They're having all the old dogs back. They want to really get that familiar. And this is, again, going into, we got Downey back, we got the Rousseau's back, we got Hugh Jackman back. Now, the obvious thing to say is, oh, man, they're not confident in it, and they're relying on member berries. Yeah, they want to make money again. And they want people to be on board,

they want people to be happy. And look what Deadpool Wolverine did, regardless of what you want to say. It is a strategy that is working for them. Even you look at no way home. And so bringing these people back. But, Coy, I don't know, man, tell me about this. We hear with this Vision series and the West Coast Avengers, that seems confusing to me, the West Coast Avengers thing. So I think they're going to blend West Coast Avengers with New Avengers because they showed, remember just once, that New Avengers lineup where they were in the more modern building. And like they had that like team right before they went off and split up in Civil War. That was effectively like, the team that I think is going to be

West Coast Avengers. Now technically that building's in upstate New York because Spider-Man goes there, I digress, but I think that kind of idea will be moved to the West Coast, that way they get that flavor, so we have two Avengers teams in the way they want. I think that also might bleed into some of the Young Avengers' ideas of what they're forming.

I don't know what it's going to look like yet, but I think the exciting thing about this show is you mentioned member berries and like you're using nostalgia. I think with some characters, they left them on a cliffhanger kind of like our post-credit scenes. This feels like they're finally addressing some of those things. Wanda Vision was like three years ago.

And that ended with like what's going to happen with Vision. They announced it not that long after. And it's been years of us wondering. And I think this is more of a, we just wrapped up this phase of pre-production with D23. The announcements are out. This is where we're at. Now let's attack this next round of stuff that we haven't addressed yet. Like the timing is very specific.

They finished all those announcements of stuff that are in the next two years. Now we're getting these little leaked reports out of the stuff that's two plus years out or within two years, but not the next three properties. And I think vision's a really smart thing for them to do right now. And I think having Ultron come back is a very huge testament to the type of show it's going to be. If you look at what Vision did in Wanda Vision, it was the ship of Theseus metaphor. It was like what it means to be alive, who am I? And to have ghost vision, this spirit of why do I exist mixed with Ultron, this malevolent spirit of destructive. that none of us should exist, this show could be an amazing commentary on what it means to be

a la Loki. This could be much more like Loki if they do it right, and that's what it sounds like so far to me. Yeah, Winston, you know, the one thing about the James Spader aspect, which we haven't really spoken about yet, that he's returning as Ultron. And I guess that everything that Coy just said and other reports that I've been reading seems like this isn't going to be the case, but what I hoped it would be is it's just one more proof that they don't really pay attention. into what if. It's like it's a fun thing that they do. But remember when everybody thought that what if was going to actually play into Doctor Strange

Part 2 and then oh, well they're going to have Peggy Carter as Captain America. I guess that's or what's her character's name? I think it's Captain Carter. Yeah, it's just Captain Carter. Okay. So Captain Carter and you're like, oh, that's the whole what if thing. They're going to play on that and they didn't play on it at all.

I thought when they announced Ultron back because Ultron was such a big story in that first what if, like so big and like menacing. They don't even addressed it in season two of what if. I thought it was going to be this major thing and like, oh, maybe that's how they're going to bring them back in this. It doesn't seem to be the case.

And I think that that's partially all of our faults in general because I put it more on Disney and Marvel in the sense that we didn't really know what this whole multiversal thing was because it hasn't always been clean. Not always.

It's never really been clean between timelines, versus just other universes versus, you know, all sorts of different ways in which we've kind of made variants and things like that. I think by seeing what if, which gave us a direct look into the multiverse via, you know, the watcher telling us, I watch over everything, and here's one, and here's another. We just automatically made that connection, which there's nothing wrong with that. It makes logical sense. So now that we know better, it really is as the what if comics in real life.

they are literally what if stories. They do not affect the main continuity of anything whatsoever. It just doesn't happen. You know what I mean? And so I think that that's the closest we've come to that almost feels like trying to find the right Logan in Deadpool and Wolverine. That's about as close as we've come to that having any sort of kind of effect like that. But as far as bringing Spader in, I think that that's great. I actually did cover the first talk.

about this show over on the blurred breakdown, go check it out. But specifically talking about how most likely we're going to be getting this. We're going to be getting the whole visions and that whole scenario for those that aren't familiar vision straight up makes a family himself. And we got a little bit of that in Wanda Vision. But now it's him taking brain patterns from Scarlet Witch and things like that and making his own like synthesoid family and things like that and how that goes completely sideways for a number of she might be playing right like that's that's that's what I was going to talk to you

about because I know how much you both we that's both me and Winston's like one of our top graphic novels I'd say like in the top 20 of all time and as soon as they said Elizabeth Olson coming back I was like oh I bet she's sick I'm talking about Scarlet Witch but man it'd be cool if they do because it's also like a fun inversion of Wanda vision if they do Vision quest as an inversion of Wanda vision I can go to the tech side of his creation and then to have Spader come back what a great villain in that world and and a especially from the standpoint of like if Agatha represents kind of the old magic type situation that was manipulating her as she was kind of moving through her grief.

I can't think of a better, you know, harmony of for him than looking back at the old tech that brought him in in Ultron, on top of the fact that it never made sense to me that Ultron would be a one and done. Ultron, Ultron above. The age of Ultron and age, it was like the week of Ultron. It was the time. It was like 72 hours of Ultron. It just really wasn't.

And that's what's crazy to me is that when you look at him throughout the comics, he's just like Brainiac, every time you're like, man, we finally got rid of him. They're like, nope, he put himself on a flash drive and some kid thought he was bootleg in Photoshop and Ultron's back.

Like, it literally, he is that dude that is always a problem because he always finds a way to kind of put a backup program in. So I love the idea of him coming back. I can't wait to see how that plays out one way or the other. And to me, the show as a whole, I thought was fantastic. That kind of vision on vision, like Shipathiasis was, I think the part that I ended up enjoying the most, even upon rewatch.

As much as I love Catherine Hahn, and I thought she was fantastic. As far as me sitting with it and the philosophy of it and all that, it was that conversation. So I'm super excited to see where that goes. Well, there you go. What do you guys think about this series? Are you excited about this series? I'm excited about what Marvel has coming up in general because I think this one's 2026,

but you have so much stuff coming out in 2025 leading up to 2026. It does seem like the Avengers movie when that movie comes out, if they lead up to it, could be absolute chaos in the best way possible. So I'd like to thank both my co-hosts here today, starting with Coy Chondro.

Coy, where can they find you? I can find me right here on YouTube at Coy Jondro. I do a weekly show where I break down all the comics I read, and I give you my nine favorite, and I try to make the most approachable. so I read about 70 comics, break down my favorite nine and give you all the news and stuff,

but I try to do a more of a comic bent over there with the actual books and stuff. And I just did a whole breakdown of what I think Ultron's gonna mean. I think this is now, like speaking of the Ultron comeback, this is now like my third most anticipated show in all of the announced stuff

because of what I think it's gonna shape out to be. It's like Daredevil X-Men 97 and then this as far as what they've got coming. So I feel like we've spent on capes and cowls about a year of like, okay, they've got to fix this. And now it feels like we're through like the other side.

Like now it feels like, okay, these things are exciting. So I'm really excited for our next year of this and also what's to come. So I'll hum me down on YouTube. And also thanks for being here. This is always fun to nerd out with these guys. Winston? You can find me here on YouTube as well at the Swaggy Blurred. I've got my show The Blurred Breakdown.

Should have another episode out for you yesterday. I forgot we're pre-daping this for a Friday show. But definitely check all that out. I cover, you know, everything. from obviously the comic and nerdy stuff to sports to pop culture things kind of hit all of that across the board so definitely come and say what's up guys thank you so much for being here today really appreciate it as I mentioned in the beginning of the show remember we're going

live pretty soon I haven't made an exact announcement as far as when we're still figuring that out I want to make sure that I have all my ducks in a row before we go live but you'll know about it we'll be tweeted out we hope that you'll join us we are we have decided though before this show aired myself Winston and Coy had the discussion we the Capes and Cals edition will be

Fridays at 10 a.m. PST for everybody out there so you know it's going to so it's every show is going to be 10 a.m. Everyone Monday through Friday will be 10 a.m. But Capes and Cows will be on Fridays as usual but you'll just know exactly what time to join us and be

part of the conversation and whether we're doing spoiler stuff or other things or just conversations in general, you can join us. So thanks to Coy, thanks to Winston. Thanks to you guys for being here. We'll see you soon. Bye-bye.