The Kristian Harloff Show - Did The Rock SABOTAGE Shazam 2?!

Episode Date: March 24, 2023

SIGN UP TO THE WEBSITE: http://www.thekristianharloff.com  Drama aplenty. The star of Shazam  Fury Of The Gods Zachary Levi has been throwing a lot of shade towards Black Adam star Dwayne The Rock Johnson. The star seems to confirm that Johnson put the squash on Shazam cameoing in Black Adam and having Justice Society appear in Shazam 2. True false? Is this a main reason Shazam 2 did bad at box office or one of many reasons? Marvel Mae a big shake up by suddenly letting go of long time executive Victoria Alonso. What does this mean for Marvel moving forward? Boom Studios is back this week with a brand new title. Speaking of Marvel, TV slate gets a shake up and new set photos that hint at Daredevils' timeline. This and more on Big Thing Capes and Cowls with KRistian, Winston A Marshall and Coy Jandreau. #marvel #MCU #DC #DCU #blackadam  SUNDAY: http://www.getsunday.com/bigthing ATHLETIC GREENS: http://www.athleticgreens.com/bigthing THE NEIGHBORS TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF-DM3BN4cw OUR MERCH STORE IS LIVE: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/the-big-thing-kh-channel?ref_id=27393 FOLLOW KRISTIAN + FIND HIM ON CAMEO https://cameo.com/kristianharloff https://twitter.com/kristianharloff https://facebook.com/harloff https://instagram.com/kristianharloff AMAZON WISHLIST: https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1KPH42T0TP0PG?ref=cm_sw_em_r_un_un_djbxgIW5ZQMMg SCHMOEDOWN ARCHIVE CHANNEL: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheMovieTriviaSchmoedownArchives Ask Kristian questions for next time! https://facebook.com/harloff Become a Patreon of the Schmoedown: http://patreon.com/schmoedown OTHER GREAT CONTENT: REVIEWS https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSJdE28YyUT368qY7sfE0nKE4c04CqGvu TV REVIEWS https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSJdE28YyUT1LU-t2Z9AD5UJDiWW4pS_E STAR WARS SHOW https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSJdE28YyUT0XmfpbblkF9PY7uO2qhbN6 THE BIG THING PODCAST https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSJdE28YyUT3KAwbzDsv6mdR-gwUiydQg

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It's virtual. Do I like virtual? No, I hate it. But, you know, we're doing it. Why? Because we have to. Because we have a lot to talk about. The big thing capes and cows crew, me and Winston and Coy. Not only do we have a lot to talk about in the world of comic book movies. We got a lot to talk about what's going on on this channel, man. The Christianharlhoff.com tonight. Tonight. If you just sign up and it's free to do so. We're doing a virtual event. It was supposed to be everybody in studio. But it's virtual and I'll explain why in a second but we're doing a virtual event and we're going to be announcing a lot of stuff and you guys can come on over there all you got to do is sign up and you will get the link of what we're doing when we're doing all that and more and if you're on this channel you're enjoying this channel show a little bit of class just announced that's all we're asking for subscribe to the channel try to get us to a hundred thousand that's what we're trying to do Spotify that's right we're on Spotify we're on video on Spotify we have Apple Podcasts very important that if you're listening to us

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We're going to talk about that for sure. Ant Man didn't do very well. Maybe one of the reasons Alonzo was gone. Zach Levi and the Rock, they're getting along. long. We'll talk about that. Ben Affleck had a big interview about how he was kind of messed up from getting the vid. And it hurt his writing process and other things. There's a lot, man. There's a lot going on in the world of comic book movies and more. And I'm glad I got the guys with me here today, both Winston and Coy. So let's get into it. It's capes and cows. It's

big thing. Let's do it. All right, everybody, welcome back to capes and cow's big thing it's myself it's winston and coy that's right all three of us back to 20 20 how's it going return of the mac once again unbelievable so it's good well look actually you know why it's not 20 20 is look at coy's camera it i mean go say coy what welcome upgrade baby You got that T-Mobile internet. You got that 4K webcam. Yeah. I sound good.

I look okay. I literally got a new phone and I talked to the person about how to make it the most connected. And here we are now that it's not as useful. It looks great. It looks great. So we're, yeah, we're going to talk about all the stuff going on in the world of comic book movie news,

obviously. Like we always do each and every week. As I mentioned earlier, yeah, someone in my house got sick and it sucks. but to be safe, we've been, you know, making sure that we just, like we're doing right now, we're doing one virtual, we should be back in the studio altogether next week. But our event that we're doing was supposed to be everybody, the whole big thing crew,

was supposed to be in studio and a little bit of a party and calling an after party and all that. And we're still going to do that. We're still going to be organized chaos virtually. But we will be talking about a lot of great things. And that's really what it's about, is about. what we have in store. It's some exciting times guys about you guys know what's coming and and it's going to be it's it's really good to have everybody together and kind of announce that together. I mean, I can't wait for it personally. I, you know, it's one of those things that that's what S-E-N-Live R-I-P was the main, that was what the point was.

You know what I mean? It was for us to be able to be in that live studio scenario. I know how much you talk about how Collider Live is a part of your walk past that we don't talk about. But like there is something about being in the same room. There's something about shooting the shit. There's something about, I guess that's my one. There's something about just having that element of like the homies together, which is what made like, you know, the Shmo's no show, all that stuff. You know what I mean?

Like that's why that hit the way it did. It's also a huge part of what I loved with the Shmowdown was the hour before, the hour after, the hours after. Where we like, we're all just together talking about the stuff that we talk about on camera, but off. And it's just the community aspect. So I'm really excited, like, even, you know, digitally to see everyone in one space and the stuff we're talking about and announcing I'm, like, stoked for because this community is really special. I mean, it's not a lot of things to survive one, lockdown, two, ending, and three, like four rebirths.

So I'm really excited to see everybody that I've seen through 10 iterations of internet. 100%. I think it's going to be really, really special for people. And like I said, this is why you sign up to the Christianharloff.com, because it's free. and you can find out exactly what the hell we're talking about and people are like well i can't watch a live i'm working well then watch it on vod that's the whole point well you'll have the link you'll be able to watch it so sign up we have we have we have over over i think now it's over like 1300 people have already signed up where we're yeah so we're we're doing we're doing good so sign up it costs you nothing all right let's get into the first one i got to bring up the first story i have to bring up is all

this shazam and and uh black adam drama um Winston went it Winston took off because he doesn't I was like, I don't want to talk about it. I'm over it. I don't, hell no. It's crazy. It's crazy all the stuff that's happening. This is what I will say. And I said this on the episode of Big Thing yesterday. Shazam, to me, the reason why, we, Coy enjoyed it the most of the three of us. I enjoyed the movie. My friend Justine Marino texted me and goes, hey, is it that bad at bomb? Should I see it? I go, it's a fun movie. You can go and it's a fun movie.

but people are not fatigued of superhero movies. They are fatigued of subpar superhero movies. And I think that that is what we've been getting from Marvel, from DC, from a lot of people. We've been getting to subpar stuff. And that's what people don't want to see. And that to me is why Shazam also didn't do well. Is it part of the marketing? Sure.

Blaming the Rock is that, I mean, is it, did it, and I said the same thing yesterday, do I find what the Rock did a little petty? Yes. Do I think it had an effect on the movie overall? all, no. Even if it made $5 million extra dollars or 10, it still only makes 40 and bombs still. So it has nothing to do with him, but the drama behind it, Coy, is insane. I don't think I've ever seen something in the modern era of this public. Like, we've heard tale of things and it's always like someone writes an expose years later,

or like we hear about some EVE through Hollywood story or a pop-up video in DH1. But in real time, I mean, this is usually reserved to like the White House, like the level of drama and scorn and sassy silliness. Like, this is usually people that are, like, throwing bad words at each other across the Congress floor. It's weird to see, ironically, from people that do drama for a living be so dramatic. Like, I didn't realize that I hadn't seen a lot of it until when Zach Levi shared the image and read the sentence truth will shut you free.

The fact that my brain first went, like, wait, we don't see a lot of that. And then two, I was like, oh, we don't see movies have this level of drama. And three, I thought of, like, the documentary we're going to get out of this. And like I my brain immediately went oh someone's going to reference this in a documentary in 10 years like that exact image I'm looking at is a future problem. But did you hear the most recent thing Winston about what about what exactly if I was asked if he's did you hear this quite about he asked if he's ever seen black Adam? Oh no, I didn't I didn't hear that. He was asked if he was so I saw this today. So this adds to it by the way.

They said they said, hey, have you had a chance to see black Adam yet? And he goes, no, I have not. And then they're like, well, you know, are you going to get a chance to see? Are you going to watch? It's like, you know, I have so many other things I need to watch. And so this is the report. I'll get Winston's comment on this whole situation. So this is from comic book movie.

Chazam Theory of the Gods was released last week to mixed reviews and disappointing box office numbers. There are a number of reasons for the sequels failings, but Black Adam star Dwayne Johnson is also now being blamed by Hollywood insiders. A reason report from the train suggested, so trade, excuse me, suggested that the rock self-interest in establishing Black Adam as the centerpiece of the DC-Extender universe led him to vetoing plans for Justice Society characters to appear in Shazam. A meeting between Shazam and Black Adam was the logical next step, but Johnson had grander ambitions. It's been said that the pro wrestler turned actor views the Shazam franchise as being beneath him and we'd hazard again, that he didn't fancy seeing his anti-hero taking a beating from Zach Levi's goofy teenager-turned

superhero. After all, Shazam is the Justice Leger and superhero who, more often than not, stands over Black Adam when they cross past. Levi has confirmed reports that Johnson stopped Hawkman and other JSA members from appearing in Shazam Fury of the Gods mid-credit scene and through shade at Black Adam during a recent interview. Asked if he'd watched the movie, the actor responded, I have not. Eventually, I mean, I've got a whole full plate of other things I need to

get to. As the host point out, it's very strange for an actor who is part of the same franchise not to a slightly more company-friendly answer. Levi does not pretend to be excited to watch Johnson's critically pan superhero movie. Elsewhere in the video, he expressed excitement for the DCU reboot. I trust where James Gunn and Peter Saffron are going

and where they want to take this. I'm waiting to see what they have in store because I'm excited about that. All right. So Winston, that's a lot. What do you got? What I got is the reason why Shazam Fury of the Gods did not do well is because once again,

Zach Levi is acting like a 12-year-old. That is the problem. If we're being a hundred percent, you think that's the main reason? Well, I mean, not just in the movie, but I'm saying like, I'm talking about what he's doing right here right now. And what's funny is, no, I don't think that's the main reason. The main reason you've fully converted me, I can't believe I'm giving you all the credit that I'm giving you because you're going to run away with it like you always do. But let's be real. People are not as jacked into this as we are. We've talked about this before. Ezra still has a job because nobody knows who Ezra Miller is. We know because we're in the industry. But again,

family, friends, they have no idea who that is. They know who Michael Keaton is and they know he was Batman and that's why they're going to see that move because it's because that is a pop culture like knowledge that everyone has. So to that point, sure people know who the rock is, but the rock what's so interesting about him not wanting to take blows from Shazam. Remember, this is the same dude just like in Diesel, they have a maximum number of punches they're allowed to be hit before that has to shut down. It's petty. It's petty. There's petty

stuff, no doubt, but you can't blame him for the failure of this movie. No, absolutely not. And the reason why Zach is going all in on the rock, but doesn't, but is playing nice with gun, he wants to continue to work with gun in the new future. But since this is gone, and there was drama

throughout where the rock didn't want to play ball and vice versa, they're just not pulling punches anymore, which is ironic that we are seeing Shazam fight Black Adam in this exact moment, just not how we were hoping. There's done the suits. Yeah, exactly. Just they just don't have the suits on. So I, I, um, I hate everything about this. If anything, it's just making me, like, I'm not going to sit here and, like, be okay with with the rock taking all this, but he also needs to share some of the blame. And I'm not cool. Was that Levi just, like, running his mouth like this, but he's allowed to do what he wants, especially

with his franchise now being over and with things bombing. I'm sure he just doesn't give any Fs anymore. So here's where, Coy, I feel this is where Zach Levi is personally. Because Zach Levi, which I agree with Winston, I think that he overcooked the role for sure inside of it. But what I also think is that he's had an opportunity to, like, he just talked about it on Josh Harwood show. He auditioned for Captain America and he was close. He was one of the few, he was, he almost got Starlord and he was bummed about it. He was really bummed about it. There was other things that he wanted to be part of Last of Us.

He wanted to do these things. he wants to be the lead guy and it's not going his way. The Rock is going to be okay with or without the Black Adam. And so Zach Levi, I think, is taking an ego hit right now also. I'm not saying he shouldn't be heard about some of the stuff that was happening, but I think he's taking an ego hit because there's not going to be a lot of people knocking on his door to star and stuff because his movies aren't performing. Yeah, I mean, if you look at even all those examples you just said plus like

Fandrell. Like, he's always wanted to be the superhero guy because he's the superhero guy. And he's, yeah, he's one of the kings of Comic Con. And yet, like, things like this keep happening at and to him. I think that he's going to settle in. It'll, he'll accept it. And it's just going to take some time. I just think that the interviews in the meantime, while things are insecure and unpleasant, like, he's just not the kind of guy to not open his mouth and say what he's thinking, hence they're being perfect for the role. Like, he's got that Billy Batson energy. And that's one of the things we've always loved about him is, is eager, childlike wonder that is Zach Levi is now a detriment for the first time because it's to scale this public. So Megatron is next week and I'm going to

Florida and he's one of the people I'm interviewing. And I'm sitting down with Zach Levi and I'm well aware that I'm going to need to make sure that like he feels comfy. Like I don't want to be the one that gets like sound bites out of him that put him in a position of like having to play. Oops, I said that thing. I'd rather be the one that's like, hey, let's geek out about the things that are positive. Oh, you've got to ask him. You're not going to ask him about this? I'm going to see what the tone of the room is, because if it's a bunch of people excited about Shazam, I don't want to be like, let's talk some crap. Like, it's just, he's got to. Soft. Yeah. Soft. We have different, we have soft. Hey, hey, hey, look, you need to, you need to take, I have never, I have never imparted

just like black uncle wisdom on your ass before, but I'm going to give you this. Yes, as somebody that's doing an interview, sure, you don't want to scare him off. You need to find a way to work that into the conversation. 100%. I agree with you. You don't want to do a gotcha. You don't want to do a thing where you put it. You're not making it feel comfortable.

But I also think if you're talking about it in general, the elephant in the room is going to be, well, yeah, I know we're excited about it. But not enough people saw it. And like, why? I'm going to lean towards the movie and lean towards the DCU. I'm just saying I'm not going to go. So you win the rock. Like, it's just not how I. Yeah, you don't want to say, so what's going on with you in the rock?

And I feel like he's lucky not to get this guy, but like I think it's good that I'm sitting now with him, not someone that would want that. I think that would put him in a really bad position the week after. I don't have TMZ interests. I also get to be the first one that interviews John Burnthal since he got back to Punisher next week. So like I'm going to sit down with people and get a real like conversation. That sounds like this show. I'll tell you that much.

But fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun, fun. But I do. But I do think that Zach's in a tricky spot because he, it is rough to be this deep in the industry, this connected to comic book things and not feel like you get to your victory lap when your sequel comes out and does this. That's the opposite of the history lap. Yeah, man, listen, it's like I said, it's like it's and I don't think that any, and I want to clarify too. Like I think any of us in that position when it comes to guys like Zach Levi and people who are starring the movies, you're your business. You're the, you're the, you are your own business. And it's like you have this opportunity to make a movie, the superhero movie, which the genre when he signs on is like the biggest genre out there.

And you get to lead in it. Your movie, your first movie does pretty good. And then, you know, when your second movie bombs, you look and you go, I might not have an opportunity to do this again. And my choices of where I thought my life was going to go onto that next level is not realistic at the moment. Who am I going to blame that guy? Why? Because he was a dick to me. And he, and he did this.

And here's receipts. I get it. I understand it. But I mean, but still, I think that's because he's pointing his finger at the rock because that's an easy one to point at and maybe warranted in a certain aspect. But he's not the only one he should point it. He did point at marketing, though, too. He did say it wasn't marketed very well.

It wasn't marketed well. But I think the big thing to keep in mind is the reason why a Guardians, for example, did as well as it did, there were two things at hand. The first was the fact that you're in the middle of that MCU like bubble where everything is kind of slapping. The very few things are not going forward, but also it was a quality movie.

The same thing could be said about the first Shazam and what made it fun is that it was just like kind of a fun family movie. And I'm not saying that this movie isn't fun. It's generic. It's generic. It's when you're in an age now, post-pandemic,

where people are only going to the movies for something extraordinary. You're getting random little people going in, but like think about the fact that like, Creed 3 was actually a pretty good movie and it was relevant for a week, for a week, and then nobody cared. So you have to come up to fire.

Oh, that's not true. You say nobody care about Creed 3 after that? After that first week? Oh, that's not true. It still did find the box office. I'm saying it was out of the pop culture lexicon that quickly. Yes, well, box office though is the most important, right? And the thing is, I think one of the things is you said it, but you also left out a couple other things, right?

Creed 3, Scream 6, John Wick. Well, no, exactly. You're surrounded. You're surrounded. You're nailed in a, and when you put subpar superhero stuff in something that, oh, wait a minute, John Wick is tracking at $70 million in the biggest opening of its franchise because, yes, it's part of a franchise. Yes, we've seen it before, but it's a different, it's, it's in a part of a different franchise and a different genre, and people are going to movies for a different reason. dream six changed it up a little bit, put it inside of that horror genre. Dungeons and Dragons from

everything I'm hearing is just a lot of fun is fantastic and plays off of a genre and a fan base that's very smart. So it was in a no-win situation. There was no way unless it was next level very different or had the kind of, like look at Dungeons and Dragons for example. Dungeons and Dragons was a movie that people were talking about going, I don't know how that's going to be. And everyone is raving about it. Everyone is talking about it. I haven't heard one of mouth on a movie like Dungeons and Dragon in years. Yeah. But to that point,

I totally want Coyd, I want to hear your thoughts on all of this, man. I think that's the point. Is that like, when you look at a world where the only movies that are busting a billion

are either because they are so huge that they can't feel like a Spider-Man, a generational 20 thing, an avatar because of what that is, or a top gun, where it's not only a good movie, but you're drawing on that same nostalgia. Shazam didn't do so good

that you could put subpar or like just middle of the ground amid effort and it was going to be able to carry itself when like you said you're surrounded by other movies that are primed to just go through and kick ass that's why the rock by himself could not sell black adam it was a mid movie and it wasn't going to be enough because that's black adam is not a name that's synonymous like superman or spider man and koi let's i want you to take this and then run with it with your points and i hate to say this too because i know he's been on the show before and i know you're interviewing him we also might look at Zach Levi just might not be a movie star.

He just might not be a movie star. And that is, and that's one of the things too that is that because, you know, it's like he, he's likable, but I don't know if he's a movie star. What,

what has he done besides Shazam and not, not including TV? What's he done inside of movies that is carried over to go on? Like, you look at the rock, you look at Tom Cruise, you look at Keanu Reeves, you look at Chris Pine,

you look at, um, or Courtney Cox, who's been in these other movies and, and Michelle Rodriguez, how did American underdog do? Because that was the last major one that I remember. And I know that that was like kind of an Oscar bait sort of situation.

No one who, that was like Kurt Warner one. No one basically, it didn't do very well. Maybe with a certain audience it did. I shouldn't say that. But not in the Zikek, but Koi,

take that point, see if you agree with it or not. And then please, on the other stuff as well. So I personally think that we're living in an age where there are less and less movie stars because the eye, IP is the movie star. I think the actual theater experience isn't about the actors much of the character. There's very few above the title actors left, period, hard stop. And I think what's happening is we're living in an attention economy more than a money economy because so many things are quote unquote free. We're living in an age where Netflix is seven bucks or 12 bucks a month and sorry Disney plus seven that's well, but you don't say like those things we don't think about when we're clicking. We're thinking about what we're giving our attention to. If you go on TikTok, it doesn't cost you anything. It's just your time and attention. So we're shifting in where we're.

where money is and it's actually an attention economy. So I think our attention is going to properties that we feel familiar with or something that looks or seems great. So Dungeons and Dragons, it is our attention that is saying, oh, I hear that's amazing, that has my attention. Even more, I think, than the Chris Pine Michelle Rodriguez of all. I think that adds to it. Whereas Shazam and Black Adam, it didn't have our attention going at. It had our, us three's attention because we were excited because we're in that space. But I don't think America's attention was on those two characters. So then you add to that that Zach Levi doesn't have the, you know, that that bandwidth that people equate to it. You add to that that we're living in an age where like, oh, I have more excitement about John Wick than I do necessarily about this.

Or, oh, I've heard Creed 3. It's not even like the money is obviously a factor. But if you've got $40 budgeted, that's two movies, maybe three depending on where you live. And therefore, you're not going to see everything if it doesn't have your attention. So I think all of this is one big pie. and the pie slices are just different than the studios are used to. And then you've got rollover from the pandemic where you had these movies that might have done okay pre-pendemic and okay might have been enough.

And you're resting on the superhero, a scent of power. So there's a lot of things working against these exact four movies. Your love and thunder, you're Black Adam, your Shazam, you're Quantum Mania. Well, yeah, I agree. And I think that I've been saying for a long time, it's not the movie star. I'll push back a little bit where you say that I don't think there's really a movie star anymore now there is a movie star i just don't necessarily know that the movie star is which you said sells the movie right that slice of the pie it's not the whole pie 100 but there are still like

the rock is still a movie star right chris pine to me is still a movie star even though i agree with you you take a different movie star and put them in dungeon dragons and it's still and they still are able to pull off the role then you know the movie probably does or or still gets the kind of critically acclaim that it does it's not necessarily about chris pine or michelle rodrigus or but they have a different thing in my opinion that Zach Levi just might not have and that is as you said which I agree with I think it's an overall piece of the pie and it's also goes back to what Winston said earlier too is and this might be also a David of Sandberg thing is I think he was directed or he his choices and how he played the character was also a thing that didn't necessarily get people back

loving the what he did in the first movie because if people would have loved what he did in that first one and thought it was so amazing and so charming more people would have come back so So maybe Winston, you know, maybe you nailed it, you know, in the beginning that it's just like, it's fine. And I think the people, I think what's going to happen with this movie is when it hits like HBO Max and it hits the other things. And people go, oh, it was a cute movie. Yeah, I think it'll actually benefit with accessibility versus the theater experience. Not that it shouldn't have gone to theaters. We've talked a lot about how necessary that is.

But I think the actual tone around it will change to the positive whether or not the financials do. Well, like I think a big thing, for example, no pun intended, is, is when you look at when we talk about again going to the movies and like you said you've got to have a hit on your hands. Super Pets was a fun movie. We enjoyed it.

Right. You really enjoy it. At the same time, if you notice, things like Enchanted is what completely took over the lexicon because it was such a top to bottom incredible movie. You had songs that you were pinned to, now that you need songs for a kid, but you had things that anchored

folks to be like you have to see this thing where kids are harassing their parents to see it. There was nothing about this movie while it was, again, very fun that people were like, you have to see the fight between, you know, Zach Levi and Lucy Lou. You have to see, you know, the back and forth shenanigans of Billy trying to pretend like he's not chazette. There was nothing about this that was mind blowing or had an anchor to like keep you there. And that's the thing.

So it did give you the lightheartedness. And I agree. I think once it hits HBO Max or whatever streaming plan, platform it ultimately comes out on. I think it'll have a resurgence and it will do just fine. Not enough, not enough to make to make anything, you know, box off. But I think you meant Enkanto, right? Enkanto. Yes, what did I say? Enchanted. I was like, you know, you know, you know why? Because I was looking at the whole thing with like Tangled. I definitely meant Encanto. My nieces and nephews are going to kill me for that. But yes, I meant incant. Doesn't I mean it. I think

it means enchanted. And that's also a good example. Enchanted is a good example because we talk about movie stars and I I'm personally not team always cast of unknown I have a lot of friends that are especially in this year it's like if the character's big enough cast and unknown I think the familiarity of a face is also important but I think I think there's a mix though I think you know there's that 80 20 split or whatever where you need to bring in new faces obviously but there is a bankability of even someone that's not a movie star and then above that is the bankability of a movie star and I think we're entering a new balance sheet on what movies need to make and need to do and I think movie stars are an factor that isn't being acknowledged because we keep saying like so it's not to negate my last point

it's to add to and i and i hear how they are at odds but i do think there are elements of movie stars that are important but i think we need to change how much of that goes into the expectation i couldn't agree with you more i think that's exactly right um but yeah look there was great debate great conversation not even debate i think we're all pretty much on the same page with it i think very curious what you guys think out there what do you make of this whole situation what do you make of the the zach levi stuff do you agree with me do you think maybe it's It's exactly my thing. And that's part of it.

Do you think it was the rock? Do you think it was bad marking? Do you think what we didn't really even talk about? Do you think that the DCU had anything to do with it? Someone tweeted out about that. I don't think so because, again, I think that's part of the movie bubble that we're in, but that's another conversation for another day. Let me know what you think in the comments I really want to know.

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and Athletic Greens. If you are able to and you want to support the show, you not only support the show when you get one of our wonderful sponsors, you help yourself because we only get the sponsors we think you guys are going to enjoy. Hell, I know you're going to enjoy them. So make sure you check out use those codes links are in the description and pinned to this comment section all right now moving forward speaking of great sponsors let's talk about boom studios every week boom studios brings us in another great piece of work piece of art and we got it again this week ladies and gentlemen today on the segment we took a look at a brand new horror title from boom studios If you guys know, Boom, you already know that they're one of the premier publishers in the horror genre.

So we are very excited to get a chance to dive into this one. It is called The Neighbors and it comes from author Jude Ellison S. Doyle who previously wrote the acclaimed boom series Maugh and artist Letizia Canonisi of House of Slaughter. Jude is one of the sharpest voices in the horror genre right now and his latest work does not disappoint. The Neighbors has a perfect horror spin on it. It's got modern elements that remind me the type of genre material that we've been seeing in movies, whether it's Jordan Peel, A24. If you guys want a taste of what this series is all about, you can check out a trailer for the series, which debuted earlier this week on Boom Studios YouTube channel.

That link is in the description. Coy, you got a chance to take a look. What do you think? I love that Boom is proving I like horror comics more than I thought time and time again. I don't think of myself as a horror comic guy, but I think I either was just exposed to the wrong ones or they're able to get people that aren't horror comic fans. And either way, I'm happy. Because it is not something I think I would normally pick up. And that is a testament to the strength of it is that like, I might not walk by and go like, oh, a horror comic. But instead,

the cover caught me. The writing kept me. And it's like slowly getting me more in that space like Harrow did. Harrow we talked about about it on the month ago. It's on issue two now. And whereas Harrow feels like a slasher translated into the comic book medium. This feels like a mix between like you said, the Jordan Peel, but like folk horror of a bygone era. It's kind of like 70s and 2020s at once, which I really, really dig. And it doesn't feel like it's only for horror fans. And that's so unique. I really dig it.

Well, I'm glad you brought that up because Winston, you know, you're definitely on record for not being the biggest horror fan when it comes to movies in general, but what Boom has done, and I think specifically what Jude has done, he brings in such a great tone and how he tells the story overall. It's just, it's engaging. And that's what I like about horror. That's what I like about thrillers is when it brings you in and it's not just kind of cliche

and tropes. And I think that Jude does a wonderful job doing so. What do you think of the way he writes this? Look, I can't do a horror movie. I can't do a haunted house because that's like real. But a comic book, bro, you're putting the certain elements in there that I get why people might F with horror. And it makes me want to be a part of it.

And any story from me, if it can relate to somebody, that is something that I also love as well. I love the comparison to Jordan Peel because I think about Get Out, similar elements from Jude here, the fact that one of the opening sequences is they've already tracked I'm black, they've already tracked that I'm trans, like you're putting real life fears for somebody but giving a supernatural element. There's a reason why Lovecraft Country did what it did. This is giving us that same kind of element where you're doing some like cultural things that you want to talk about, but then giving us a gripping, terrifying tale. And I got that immediately from this first book.

Yeah, I think that once again, it just proves that Boom is just on the forefront. They have so many different things. And as we were talking about, how there is a lot of kind of generic stuff out there right now, boom is not part of that generic trend. They are the far opposite. They are doing a lot of different things

that change up the genre. And I think neighbors absolutely signifies that. Now, Coy, anything else that we should be reading this week? Yeah, I also want to say, this one particularly that I love that the horror genre is always people that feel like outsiders feeling connected to a story and I feel like that's also true of comic books so it's really cool to have a car comic that helps people like connect to characters because this is connecting me to characters in a way that's unique to the medium and to the genre of horror and like I love them quickly so I just

I was really impressed with the writing making me go like yeah these people and that was really cool but also in the world of comics this week we talked about berserker 12 last week yes if you didn't pick it up last week, get after Preserker, but also on the DC side, there's an anthology series called Batman One Bad Day that just ended, and each of the issues is contained. It's an anthology series, which means each issue is its own story and dependent of the other stories, but they're about basically the villains of Batman's Rokes Gallery, which are some of, if not the best in comics. And this week concluded the whole run with Roshal Ghoul. And it's written by Tom Taylor, who is writing The Best Nightwing maybe of All Time, who also

wrote the Superman that had John Kent take the mantle. He's one of my favorite writers working right now. And his Raschal Ghoul is genius, as was Tom King and Mr. Girard's Ridler, as was the Catwoman book. These are all maybe my favorite takes on characters in a one shot, but I love that it's approachful in that you only have to pick up that one issue. Or you can pick up all seven. But that run just ended this week.

And all seven were amazing. It's called Batman One Bad Day. This week was Rajal Ghul. All right. Well, once again, thank you to Koi for the suggestion in comic books and make sure you check out the neighbors. Boom. studios. We love Boom. So excited to have them with us. Thank you to Boom once again for sponsoring

this segment. All right. Let's talk about some more news. Let's move to some new drama. And that drama is of course Victoria Alonzo, who was the president of physical post-production, VFX and animation has left Marvel after 17 years. This is comicbook movie.com. Very few details were shared at the time, but there is a new report that is giving a little bit more on how to go with a story. Though the specific reason for Alonzo's termination, yes, she was fired, still hasn't come to light. Variety has heard that the executive was blindsided by the news.

Apparently, the decision was made by a consortium, including Disney Entertainment, co-chairman, Alan Bergman, Marvel chief creative officer Kevin Feigey, was not involved in the process, but is said to have felt mired in an impossible situation and ultimately chose not to intervene when the hammer came down. It's entirely possible that Alonzo's departure is at least partially due to Marvel Studios' less than amicable relationship with the beleaguered VFX houses that work on their projects. There have been numerous reports from overworked artists who believe that the shoddy visual

effects that we've seen in some of the more recent MCU movies is largely down to impossible to meet deadlines. And a recent Twitter thread from New York Magazine writer Chris Lee claimed that Alonzo was singularly responsible for Marvel's toxic work environment. a kingmaker who were warily, unquestionably, um, guilty with an avalanche of work who also maintained the blacklist that kept FX pros wild-eyed with fear.

The assessment of Alonzo's character has also been disputed. The idea of a very senior executive, terrifying rank and, and file artists per some reports feels a bit off. One VFX for artist tells the trade. She was the epitome of professional and knows her stuff. Added a film executive over at Disney. All right.

So there's a lot there. Just a lot. I'm going to throw that. I'm going to start this one with Winston. You hear this news that Victoria Lonzo, who was there for years, 17 or whatever it said, since Iron Man and all phase one, two, and three, you know, we find out that she's blindsided. Surprised by the news.

Think you saw it coming? What say you? Who-wee. This feels like I'm not saying that these reports aren't true, but this feels like some scapegoaty type-ish a little bit. Again, it is very possible that everything that was just said about how she's making

a toxic environment and all that, but like, we never heard anything about this whatsoever. They kept that that under wraps that now you want to open up. We heard that the VFX people were not happy. We heard that. We never heard that it was coming anywhere from her. We didn't hear anything on that. We didn't hear anything.

Right. Right. So, I don't know. no, dude, this is wild. I mean, again, I got to, I got to potentially believe it, but something is rot in the state of Denmark. That's, that's the only thing that's going on here. And I'll be honest with you, this is going to look real shady. If, if Marvel makes a bounce back like they're trying to do after this firing, we're having a different conversation. And I don't know if you can throw necessarily like guardians in there, because we're already in the middle of that right

now if we're being honest. I'd say the marvels is probably pretty much visual effects, you know, more than two-thirds done. I, right. So you might even not throw in the marvels. You maybe could, but I would say let's take both of these two movies out of there. If everything after that isn't like the ship isn't writing back, this feels like some scapego-ish. You know what I'm saying? But if, but if things kind of, kind of write the ship after that, then maybe there's something to it. I don't know. It just seems so out of nowhere. But a lot of, but that's a thing. A lot of people have no idea how the sausage is getting made and,

and even us for as jacked in as we are to this whole scenario, there's a lot of things that studios are very good at hiding until they can't hide it anymore. So I don't know. It just, it feels very weird to me now hearing that whole story, but what else do we have to go off of? All right, Corey. So, like, I'm, I'm kind of in between that because I think that there is, there is definitely, look layoffs are coming from Disney um like there's supposed to be a ton of layoffs coming in in April uh now

a lot of these movies happened during the the chapec regime anyway and a lot of the the excessive amount of Marvel stuff that was put on them came from the chapec kind of mandate and all that and now with Iger coming in this wasn't necessarily even decided by Iiger but there could be as Winston says, them looking towards someone and going, okay, well, we got to start cutting salaries. We got to start looking. Is there a necessary reason to have this particular person? Is there a potential that there's a scapegoat situation? Sure. But the thing is, why was she the scapegoat? Was it also looking, if you're, if you're a company in general going, okay, look, for the last, we've had a, and I don't know, and again, this is me to speculate,

for a lot of years, we've had complaints about the way that she's been running the team. The, even though there's a lot of stress that was put on the team to push this out, she didn't handle it in the way that we think leadership should. We've had an issue for a little bit, and maybe it's time that now we're cutting back and doing things, that maybe it's time that we go in another direction. That's also very possible, especially now you, which one do you believe? Which story do you believe? Do you believe that she was this kind of tyrant that was telling the VFX do this or

you're blacklisted, or do you believe the side of it going, no, no, she was a pleasure to work with. She was just under a lot of stress. I don't know, Koi's a lot. What do you think? So I think that in a mega restructure, there is an element of the Game of Thrones of there needs to be someone at the top moved. And as a show of force, I think we usually are, we've talked before about how we're way too plugged in to be any way objective. Like, we know too much, but also not enough. Like, we don't know why, but we have like these

thousand theories. And this will be another episode of Koi shamelessly name drops. I've had a bunch of incredible conversations with Victoria Alonzo. I've presented movies with Victoria Alonzo. I've talked to people about their thoughts on her. And my personal experience, which is why I tweeted and a lot of people got mad at me, was all very positive. I know for a fact, Shochie Gomez loves Victoria because she made sure she was taking care of

and comfortable on set. I know for a fact, Sochi credits her with allowing certain, like, character choices to work visually because of her relationship with the visual effects artist in one of the movies that does have visual effects that people liked for the most part compared to others. I know for a fact that she's been there since the beginning of Marvel got promoted so early on that she became like a top three under Kevin Faggy.

I don't honestly know the hierarchy of like Kevin and then two and three, but I know there's, you know, Kevin and then the producers that are named. She's been one of the big ones since Avengers. And before that, she was a giant piece of that puzzle in making all of these good movies work. So my defense of her is I understand the visual effects artists are hardcore overworked and that is not fair to them. And I understand that the way the system has gone has failed those artists, and that is not right or fair.

But I also have to acknowledge phase one, two, and three, she was one doing all of that. She was the one making sure they were taken care of. So to me, this registers as someone said we need 32 properties instead of four. And she had to go, how do we do that with these poor people? And then she got to be the one that got pointed to like the scarlet letter on. And if talent loves her and we hadn't heard before to Winston's point, that to me registers more as there needs to be someone to point the finger at more than she's the one actually doing it wrong.

And this unnamed source is literally someone that's like, let me put some buzzwords into an article. It just, it feels, and I don't know, but it feels off. Because the other thing I would say that I'm just looking at the variety article, and I didn't even know this about her. And this isn't an end all, B, at all. But like knowing that both A, she's an openly, you know, a rare openly LGBTQ person and just, and a woman of color and she's made it a big deal to make sure the diversity part of it. You know what I'm saying? There's, there's a weird level of like she really seems like she's looking out for everybody. And it doesn't mean that in this moment, because remember, like you just said, Coy, when we're dealing

with four to seven maximum per year, and now all of a sudden it was launch an entire streaming service, put all that content out, plus these films mid-pandemic, they overtax the system. While visual effects houses are overtaxed by all studios, we're not even. including the fact that like there's only a certain number of artists in town and they're usually people that freelance. It's not like Marvel's got they have their own artists, but they don't have exclusively 100% of blank. So if she's taxed because of all these properties and then the studios that are not hers are also doing things, you're running out of people to physically do the work so the people that are there get overwork. And on top of that, like she's the only person that when

I brought out an executive to do any sort of presentation, wanted to hear my questions first because she wanted to know why I was asking them. And to me, that is way more care than I've ever experienced from someone even for just that because she was like, why do you think visual effect? Because one of my questions was, uh, visual effects artists aren't given enough respect for what they do. Can you talk about the process that Marvel did in phase one versus phase three? We had a great talk about that, but she was like, why do you think that's the case?

And I explained my perspective on you only see negative visual effects. You don't realize that half the shot you're looking at is also ones and zeros. And she like appreciated the fact that I saw that because she, She had so much respect for those artists. So to me, as again, my only brief personal experience is this all seems not the case. Well, look, this is the other side of it, too, that we have to look at there too. There's no, I don't think, and I think that it's silly for anybody to say that she never, that, no, I don't think anyone is. And if they do it, again, dumb, that she didn't deserve to be in the position that she was in.

And that's, that's ultimately, Coy, what you're saying is that she should have been in the position she was, she was in. And I don't think that that is being disputed. what we also don't know the three of us too we don't know because you're right she could have been mandated to say hey guys we have all these projects now that they're putting on us we got to do this this this this and this and those artists can be like well you're the one telling me to do this even though it's someone else telling me so i hate you for telling me which is very possible but it doesn't change the fact that if she's involved in anything that we're doing if we if we if we if if i have a company and i'm going all right Winston i'm putting you in charge of something that we need to

hit these numbers on and we need to do and they're mandating it for me from like when I was with skybound. We have we have this to do and you're in charge of it and I need you to do the job and I'm going to be looking at you to do this regardless of what's coming in. You're the person that needs to do the job. So if by the time I then look and I go, okay, well, these numbers are off and this is that no matter what you have done in the past, if it's not hitting, you're going to be the one that's going to be under fire. And so that aspect of it has to be acknowledged. And I don't know the full period. The other side of it is too is what is telling to me is, yes, I understand that Kevin Feigey has mentioned is in a impossible situation, right? But using that same circumstance,

if I was then brought in by skybound and they said, hey, Winston was in charge of this and he did this, this and this. And he ain't performing and we want to let him go. Me today goes, you cannot let Winston go because Winston has done this for the show. He has done this for the show. He's been a part of this. He's done this. What else can we do? I'm using my, I'm using my Kevin Feigey here to say, hey, why are we getting rid of this person? We can't. He didn't do that. Now, I know in possible situation, we don't know the side of it. But I just. feeling, Corey, you've talked to Kevin Feige more than anybody. Don't you think that if he really wanted it to stay, he would have moved hell and high water to

make sure that it was going to happen? I think that he might have been able to do more even six months ago. And I'm really wondering what Kevin Feigey's level of, he has power, but I don't know if he has leverage right now. I think he has the ability to control in-house. They're not moving like they used to. And they're also not on an upward trajectory. So leverage and power are very different things.

I think the man's out of leverage. And I'm worried about that when it comes to creative decisions because I think Kevin Faggy is one of the best creative perusers of all time. And a lack of leverage when you're one of the smartest people at what you specifically do is, I think, how we got here. I think Kevin's lack of leverage when it came to Chepex decisions was the issue. So I think him losing leverage doesn't look good. I think Guardians, we've talked about, is going to be a safe hurricane eye of the storm.

But I think that Kevin Faggie needs to be looking at what, Blade is doing because they're constantly rewriting that and changing cast members. I think he needs to be looking at how he's going to introduce the X-Pen because that's his real next big Avengers level push beyond the Avengers we've already announced. I think this decision to possibly split Avengers 2 is a smart one because Kevin Faggy knows Avengers titles are very big. It's a great brand and more time is better than less when it comes to storytelling. All of that being said, he might not be the be-all end-all ink pin that he was before.

I think he's a pencil right now. Damn. Whoa, you will call your boy a pencil, bra? Temporated. I'm just being real about it. Look, I don't think you're far off. And I think there was a great answer to that question.

What I will say is this, and I have to do it. All of the news that's been going on with Lindeloff and losing another creator over at Star Wars. And yeah, I know they got the Peaky Blenders guy. I know, and they probably wind up going. And I said this yesterday. today. Kathleen Kennedy to me is going to throw the Jordan shot off the court with Indiana Jones.

She's going to have her name attached to the Chinoy and, and Stephen Knight, is it Brian Nair or Stephen Knight, right? The peekie blinders guy. They're going to get, they're going to, she's going to have her name on that. She's going to have her name on the Taika Watiti. She's going to have producer credits on all the movies that go. She's going to make more money when she's somewhere else and she's going to leave the company this year. if I'm Kevin Feigey I'm going the hell I've done everything I could with Marvel right now I know I've got fantastic for plans of something I wanted to do I'll put my name on all those things of all the phase movies that are coming out I'm gonna trace my and I'm out of here all right now Marvel is doing this guys I hate you say Marvel is in blue no it's not it is compared to what it was it's still it will store made a lot of money sure but is it is it in that same spot every time Marvel put out a movie in phase one two and three minus just the you know the the mouth breeders who just wanted to hate it before before they even saw anything. Critically, it did really, really well. Audience-wise, did really, really well. It isn't a difference. It is like, it's in Last Jedi category right now. I think Kevin Feigey's used to having the negative be the exception to the

rule. And right now, the hyper-positive is the exception to the rule. And I think that's a really tricky position to be in as someone overseeing so many properties. Because if you look at the TV shows, we talk about Wanda Vision and Loki. And Loki isn't even everyone talking about it. It's us in the space talking about it. But I don't feel like Falcon Winter Soldier gets talked about. nearly as much as it should. I feel like those things. And that isn't Marvel. Marvel is a vent. Marvel is the spectacle of the conversation of all the things. So I don't know if Kevin Feigy would want to leave while things aren't good or if that would make him want to leave. But I do know his love of Star Wars is boundless. And I worry, to be honest, my actual worry would be Kevin Feigey

is in a position that James Gunn is in, but times 50. James Gunn's in a position to get his movie out. That is his love letter to it that's done while promoting DC. see Kevin Feigey stuff isn't done. Agreed. Now, even though I know you're not a big baseball guy, Theo Epstein, who I bring up all the time, Theo Epstein was the owner or the GM of the Red Sox came in after almost 100 years of not winning a title, brings him in and wins multiple titles with them, right?

Then leaves and goes to Chicago, and then after however 80, 90 years, wins a title with them. Kevin Feige win in two big titles like that. off. It's the same, man. It's, I know people give LeBron a lot of crap, but it's the same thing with LeBron, going to heat,

going to Miami, bringing them chips and then be like, I'm going to do this for Cleveland. If Kevin Feigy leaves and revives Star Wars to the place that it used to be revered at, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And he's he can have that power.

52, 53. And if he can have the power that he should have, because I don't think anyone is just pointing at Kevin Faggie, except aforementioned mouth graders. I don't think any of us are blaming him. So if he can have the power, he should have a Marvel over at Star Wars. I'd prefer that for him. And I'd prefer the movies that would come out of that for us.

Me too. And the rumor I hear, and I don't know how true it is, the rumor is that he's more of a Star Wars fan that he is even of Marvel. We know a big of a Marvel fan. But the rumor is that he's more of a Star Wars fan than he is of a Marvel fan. Would you prefer him to Faloni or Fabro? So this is what I actually think that for me, what they should do is very similar to what you notice I don't call Zazlov Zoloft anymore

because I think the decisions that he's made over the last couple of months have been pretty good. I like what he did in saying, hey, Saffron, you're going to be doing a lot of the business decisions for DC. You're going to be doing a lot of this. And then go on, you're heading a lot of the creative and the push and go, right? I think

he needs to do something like that. Iger needs to do something like that for Lucasfilm and put two people in charge of it. Now, whether or not that's Poloni and Favro, Whether or not that's Kevin Feigy and someone else or whoever. All of them. Whoever. But it needs a complete rehaul.

It needs a complete rehaul. And again, if I'm Feigey, it's like what he's got it. I get it. He wants to stick around for X-Men and fantastic for. I understand that. But like, what more does a guy need to do at Marvel? What does he need to do at Marvel? I think he'd want to leave on a high note so I could see him staying through Secret Wars,

which might be wide splitting. I can see him introducing his. introducing his X-Men of Fantastic Four there, almost like, you know, how a showrunner gets paid for the rest of the show-of-the-show because they did the tone. I would love to see Kevin Feigy get his showrunner status with the X-Men of Fantastic Four and set those ships afloat and have the Kathleen Kennedy thing where his name is on the next four or five and then go over to Star Wars. My concern is that that's about two, three years away. I don't know if Star Wars can survive that long with it being so, because like your coverage of Star Wars has been delightful because of the mania of it because what you're feeling is what the people are feeling.

I love Star Wars. Obviously, it's not akin to Marvel, but I would rather have two universes at a B plus, A minus, than one at its current C and one at its current D. And so like whatever that looks like to get them both to elevate, I do think Kevin Fagie is a powerful enough producer with enough creative endeavors that he could write the ship, but I don't want him to leave while things are so. There's too many holes in the ship. I get it, especially as a Marvel and a common book fan. Again, I equate it to sports. You don't want your coach to leave when there's still championships to be won. All right, let me, speak to to Marvel, there's another story here.

Marvel Studios, 2023 Disney Plus slate has been narrowed with some shows pushing into 2024 or beyond. Again, commentbookmovie.com. More big changes appear to be on the horizon for the MCU slate in 20203 with a number of Disney Plus TV shows expected to be pushed into 2024 and beyond. Here we go. We've been hearing rumblings for months that Marvel Studios is making some changes to its 2023 slate with a number of Disney Plus TV shows on the way likely push into 2024.

As things stand, this year alone was expected to see the launch of Secret Invasion, Loki Season 2, What If Season 2, Ironheart, Echo, Agatha Cuffin of Chaos, and X-Men 97. However, three months into the year and none of them have a premiere date, a move which suggests there is no way for all of these shows to stream within the next nine months. That's now been confirmed by variety in their report about Victoria Alonzo's shocking firing. She was tasked with overseeing VFX and post-production on all the MCU projects, but as the pressure has mounted, it seems that the way she conducted herself was deemed unacceptable by Disney.

Insiders now say that the Disney Plus series from Marvel Studios had been scheduled to debut in 2023, have been narrowed to three or four. with the others moving into 2024 and possibly beyond, that will take some of the media pressure off of Marvel's post-production pipeline. Secret Invasion and Loki Season 2 are a lock for this year, is what we would guess. Echo will be a priority for Marvel Studios as well as seeing as it's likely to lead directly into the events of Daredevil Born Again. When Marvel Studios will officially shed some light on plans to shift around and delay the entire multiverse saga remains to be seen, but it's surely coming. We also guessed that this means that there are.

no plans to release special presentations, a shame considering the fact that Weirwolf by Night and Guardian's Holiday Special were among the MCU's best offerings in 2022. Hopefully we'll have some more concrete details to share with you soon. Connoff the movie. Winston, you hear all that. What do you think?

I think that this is actually probably a good thing. It's one of those things where it's like, despite how everything went last year, It at least gave me something to be excited about with all those properties, but you don't want to get to, I think just like anything else in life, when someone tells you,

you need to wait. You need to wait. They're doing it on purpose because they're trying to prevent you from essentially screwing a situation up, something being less fun. There's a reason why, you know, you need to eat your dessert at the end type stuff.

I think this is a move to prevent the brand from getting, from getting further tarnished. I think they're really taking their time, which is smart, and I think you keep Secret Invasion, you keep Loki Season 2, because you've already had that plan for that. You already had a situation

where things were coming together. Everything everybody said about, like, the trailers for Secret Invasion, for example, it was very clearly set up to be something that was ready to go and is really set to get us to where we... And these were two properties as well that were not being...

the way a lot of other things were because of the pandemic. For Daredevil, for Echo, for Ironheart, those were all things that were kind of in the fire, but it seemed like they were just pushing it way too fast. So this isn't a bad thing. And I don't even necessarily have red flags going up for it. If anything, it feels like a situation where someone realizes the relationship is maybe moving a little too quickly.

It's a little bit on the rocks. and if you want this to be a long lasting thing, you go, why don't we pump the bridge just a little bit? Maybe we jumped into this little too fast. 100%. And I think that it is absolutely, I think you nailed it. And I think that that is exactly what it is, Koi,

is that I think because of the Chepec mandate and all the stuff that they asked for and because of all this stuff coming out with Victoria Alonzo and the way that she, whether it was, you think that it was, she should have been fired or not fired. There's no argument that the VFX people were put, way too hard and they were publicly talking about it.

And it also goes back to show the quality, not just in the VFX, but the quality in the storytelling took a hit as well because how many places can Figgy be in at once? And because of phase one and phase two and phase three had less stuff and didn't have any TV shows at all, really, it had enough time to really focus on the core story of what it is. And I think one of the reasons phase four is all over the place right now

and or leading into phase five is that there, what the hell is it all about? Except we know it's multiverse. We know that Kang's around there. We all agree that Kang probably wasn't introduced probably in the best way that he could have been. And there's, so scaling back is probably a great idea.

And I think that there's also something, bless you. Bless you. Thank you. That's about reevaluate. Maybe cancel some of these shows. Do you really, they said like the Daredevil,

we know Daredevil's coming. Do you need the Echo show? Do you need it? I think this, this whole thing is big. It's fourfold, in my opinion. I think it's quality control in that they know that with things coming out, if things keep averaging in that B and C range, it's no longer an A franchise.

And they need to go back to being an A franchise if they're going to consider themselves the event of the year that they were. Second, I think it's a course correction as far as the audience's relationship. I think we're living in a very unhealthy time societally where we don't experience things in the present. We're always waiting for the next thing, the next thing, the next thing. The biggest discourse about the four movies DC's putting out isn't even about those movies. it's about, well, besides the Ezra Miller of it all, it's about why would I watch these if there's no connection to the DCU in the film space? I know that's not the case for, you know, most of the country, but the people that advertise your films, the people that are the core audience, people discussing it, that is a factor. So I think it's a course correction as far as stop anticipating the next thing, live in this thing. So slowing down is the move. Next, I think it's also an issue with the writer strike. I think the writer strike is coming. I think they're going to be one of the only studios that has shows waiting in the in the back. They're going to be able to pull out that DVD that you didn't know. ready and made and play something on TV that's scripted and done and didn't break the barrier of WGA issues. And I think that more studios should look at things that way as opposed to the other way.

And four, I do think there's going to be an issue with basically having things that don't line up in time in the way that it was supposed to come out in the Marvel way. So not just, of course, correct because the audience relationship, but of course correct in the actual oomph of the way things were supposed to be released to us, got affected by the pandemic, got affected by the critical reception got affected by what the storytelling had to change. So I think by slowing down, you're able to add elements that aren't just quality, but also add the connectivity of story that people want that are living in this giant web. So I think it's four very big things that are all unprecedented because there's never been anything quite like this and there's never been

impact to things like this in real time. And there's never been a relationship via the internet with us to it in this way. It's a big deal. Yeah, I think it's a good move, man. I really do. I think because like I said, we got Loki season two. That's going to be. highly anticipated. I think you hit the nail on the head coil also where it said, like, you want it to feel like an event. You also want to make sure that you're the, one of the things that I couldn't believe that they did last year was Ms. Marvel not only came out around the same time that Obi-Wan did, it came out the same night. So dumb. That was so stupid. It was so stupid. And it probably destroyed some of the ratings.

For both. And not only for casual viewers, which is the most important, but for people who are covering it, right? And that's like when you want people to cover it and you want to get word out, it's like, first of all, you do this silly thing in general where you drop it at 12 a.m. on a night. And you want people to cover it at 12 a.m. You want people to cover it in the mornings. And then it's like you want us to cover two of them. You also want to wake up and have your cereal and coffee and read spoilers. Like I, it's so interesting that they think that having spoiler culture. And also like, we're the advertisements now. Like TikTok isn't. They don't. That's what is word of mouth so not anymore not TikTok might not be the advertisement anymore i'll tell you that

christian versus twitter and ticot the no no i know seriously the i don't know the congressional hearings right now to get it's have you guys been watching those i've been updates updates now by the time we get by the time we get to we air this show it might it might already be banned who knows too that's insane but twitter's next but your point is valid your point is valid that you know that that's getting that word out and now with the idea and what i will say And I want to say positively about Star Wars because Star Wars doesn't have movies right now. So all they got, the only game that Star Wars has is TV. So even though they have, I think they're supposed to have three, not including Bad Bad,

we're supposed to have three television shows this year with Mandalorian, Skeleton Crew, and Asoka. So those are their three big things. Now, when you've got Marvel who's supposed to have these five shows plus, they're three movies, you know, that's a lot. that's that's that's that's a lot and maybe even even too much so if you then say okay look we're going to scale back we're going to make sure that it all ties into our movies that we're going to have and then we also want to make sure that we're not stepping on star wars and star wars isn't stepping on us because it is the same audience a lot of the same audience so i think this is a

good move loki is the way to go for sure season two secret invasion is one of the i think is going to be the most marvel tying into stuff and maybe you could get things back on track if they do it the right way um what if is a bummer i would have like to see that I don't know what, I mean, as much as I love Catherine Hahn, what is it, what is it, Nicole, you tell me or Winston tell me what does Agatha covenant? What does that serve the story of the overall MCU, even though we saw her kind of like, didn't she die? I don't remember. I think it brings in a supernatural element that isn't there. We've got cosmic, we've got ground level, we've got those things. But I think Agatha is going to bring in Mephisto, actually. I think that

they're reacting to the permanent fan hype of Mephisto that is very strange because, well, not strange, but in the comics, Mephisto is not a big deal compared to, like, the hype. So I think they're going to add a supernatural element, which will bring in Ghost Rider, which will further tie in Black Knight set on purpose this time, and will bring in the more elemental characters who set up Blade. I think that Agatha isn't going to have Blade in it, but I think it allows for this guy right here to have a precedent. You don't want to just suddenly have vampires. You want to have a slow burn into that world. So I think Agatha personally is the gateway and the Blade that I think Miss Marvel will be into X-Men.

Winston, do you think that, like, they'll basically use the magic in a dark way, like the chaos magic to bring in, like, B and C-List characters like witches, or maybe A-list characters like Brother Voodoo, but do it before we get deeply into it with Ghost Rider and Blade? I think it would be smart. I think that even though you've already got Blade technically by having his voice at the end of Eternal. Right, right. I think the smart thing to do when you had such a.

hit with Agatha and knowing knowing that she does have like a pretty you're right she's not like an a list sort of person in that but she does have such a strong hand in a lot of the mysticism happening as much as Dr. Strange and Wanda honestly it's not a bad idea to use that as just another gateway especially when Catherine Hahn has delivered so well for you when you had the situation where like Catherine Hahn was like getting you know Golden Globe nom or not just for the story but for actors why wouldn't you you know what I'm saying when you when you have a hit like that why wouldn't you do that yeah I think sorry real quick question right now is is picking and choosing what serves the universe and what because like if you have all these things right now

that you have too much of it what would you cut if you know if you got to cut stuff and I think that the answer is you got to look at these certain shows and you got to look at what you can't cut the movies that are planned right now and that you've already kind of mapped out to be into phase five and phase six. But the other thing, including into this conversation of Antman and visual effects in general, is that what I talked about on yesterday's show, and I want to see if you guys agree or disagree with this, I think that you look at something like Top Gun, you look at something like Avatar, you look at something like John Wick, right? All of these movies, yes, they use a heavy amount of CGI, right? But And Dungeons and Dragons,

Quoy, you can talk on this, and I feel that this is relevant to my point. They use a lot of CGI, but the emotion and the character development throughout the story earns the stuff that happens, right? Like you look at something like Avatar, which Avatar is full, if not entire CGI movie and entirely full of graphics, obviously,

but the story, when they have that big battle at the end, it earns it. And it earns it through emotion. It earns it through the setup throughout it. Ant-Man, to me, as much as I enjoyed watching it, it's a chaotic ending. It's a chaotic battle scene.

It's chaotic. And it's like, look at this. He's huge now. And no, no, she's huge. And that's little. And that's a big head. And that's a thousand extras. It's like, what does it mean?

It doesn't mean anything. Yeah, I totally agree. And two quick things on that because I have so much passionate about these exact subjects. But Dungeons and Dragons is the best Marvel movie that isn't a Marvel movie. Dungeons and Dragons is the franchise starter. Iron Man was because of its heart. It is basically yes and the movie. They were able to somehow write something that felt like it was improvised in script,

on set and directing. That is all CGI. Like the way they, so I talk to the directors and writers. It's Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daly who are rider-dineers. And they were somehow able to basically make this feel like it was all of the heart of an improv with best friends while adding magic visually. And it's the most I've liked magic because I think fantasy in darkness is all well and good,

we don't have a lot of fun fantasy right now. And fantasy is fun. So Dungeons and Dragons is exactly what you're describing. But on the other point, when you say what should we cut because of world building, I think Iron Heart and Iron Man 4, which is basically at Armor Wars, are really important for the street level stuff that's going to be tech versus magic. So I think they're going to make Dr. Strange a bigger element because we're hearing rumbling because of Dr. Strange 3. That I think is the first new announcement I've heard since Comic-Con that is like, oh, wait, a new property. Because it seems like everything else is scaling back.

I heard see Jamie coming back too, though, too. But they need a fixture, right? They need like a main, they need someone to focus on. And if that's going to be Dr. Strange and Cap, that is your street level and your magic, but you need an element of magic to support that. Maybe that's Agatha. This is why Spider-Man, I wish, was not Sony.

The Spider-Man should be your guy. I mean, Spider-Man should be-Four movie. But Spider-Man should be your guy. I know. Should be a guy. Anyway. But also, we just got him finally alone. We can't bring him back.

He finally is Spider-Man. I know, I know. Andrew Garfield. I know. Last thing I want to throw to you guys now, we get it more, because there's a lot of this. And I, and I've actually really enjoyed the conversation about the inner workings of all the kind of movies, as opposed to like some of the stuff that we normally do. So bringing up one of those stories of what we normally do. And I'm going to start with Winston on this one is that there's some news about Daredevil. There's some news about Daredevil, the 18 episode potential series. And there's some news about the potential timeline. All right, Winston, there's some stuff about the timeline. Have you heard anything about this? What? No. You idiot. All right. There we go.

Daredevil Born Again. Set photos may reveal a surprising timeline of the Disney Plus show. So again, comic movie. Some photos from the set of Daredevil Born Again have been shared online, and they don't appear to reveal much at first glance, but they may give us an idea of when the Disney Plus revival takes place. Filming continues on Daredevil Born Again in New York, and some more set photos were shared. The latest snaps give us another look at Charlie Cox.

is Matt Murdoch. He's updated his wardrobe since the Netflix days, and he walks the streets. There's nothing particularly revealing about these shots at first glance. But if you look closely at the church bulletin in the first image, the date reads March 15th, 2020. We assume Born Again would be set after the events of Shehawk attorney at law, but this would seem to indicate that the show will at least partially take place during the blip. This could explain why Fogging and Karen are not there. It could be that it's even addressed, but can't we see the entire series,

but we can't see the entire series playing out in this timeline. Could be a flashback, or the 18 episodes will be split between past and present day. All right. And then the other thing, I saw this is a Collider thing that I saw. I didn't read the article on it, but I'm so confused because the,

did you see this that on Collider, they interviewed the showrunner and he said this is sent, or was it the showrunner or a producer, who essentially said it would be a continuation of the Netflix series, I got to, did you see that coin? I did. And I don't think one person has said the same thing yet. Because I feel like Charlie Cox said no and then yes and then yes and no.

And then Kevin Feigey's like, here's a new thing. And then Echo I thought was going to maybe kind of explain that because a lot of the characters are in it. But if they've got 2020 on some shots, I think it all might have changed. I honestly think the reason Charlie Cox hasn't given an answer isn't him being duplicitous. I think it might have changed. I honestly think that like the darkness of the show is going to be darker with John Bernthal coming back. I think looking at the audience going like, why is this all PG-13, we want all rated Deadpool might have helped it.

Like, I honestly think things are happening in real time on these shows. Well, Winston, so I want you to speak on that, you know, as far as what the, they said that it's going to be a continuation. Will it be? That's part one. And then part two is what do you think about this potential date of, of 2020 being set for the show, the whole show, flashback? What do you think?

I think that it, that is certainly possible. but I also think if we're still tapping into what we've seen Marvel and Fagie do before, there's nothing to say that that's not something that they didn't mind getting out there one way or the other and can easily be fixed two seconds from now and people are maybe getting a little overzealous. I think unless we're looking at a trailer for some stuff and even then we have been fooled by trailers before, I feel like this is much ado about nothing. We don't have actual evidence that anything is anything at this particular moment. And I know, again, you're talking about one of the most major studios on the planet.

So it's not like they're out here in these streets making massive, like, you know, continuity errors. That's, you know what I'm saying? They would be all over something like that. But I, but I would honestly think that the best way to also build some, some of that back is to let something like that as a set photo get out. And people like, what's going on? And all of a sudden, now we're not focused on Victoria. Like this is, I don't.

don't even want to invoke his name because y'all know how I feel about him, but this is like the most Trump move because he would do the same ish where he's doing something wild over here. He's like, look at the birdie. I would not be surprised if I was like, oh, look at the birdie, like, why not? Remember, though, this story came out before that he did a new details and variety though. So that, that, to be, to use another word, that would have trumped this story more so than, you know, because the Alonzo stuff broke afterwards. So even if that was the case. But as far as the overall idea of the 2020. I do think it's probably a flashback.

I was, I think it's like, I just think it makes the most sense is that that particular scene is a flashback. They show the same way that they did in, in Wanda Vision, right, when they showed Rambo waking up and seeing the blip, and it was the first kind of idea of seeing how that all,

because what we had gotten an idea of the blip in Spider-Man was kind of like a humorous version of it. Like, oh, look, the band's back. Yeah, everybody's happy. But the first time we saw it in Wanda Vision is the kind of chaos that it that it that it set. And maybe because of the darker nature of Daredevil, you see that and him losing his friends. And I don't know, maybe who knows what time period it takes place. Maybe it leads up to the end and going back to what Coy said last week.

Maybe Coy, it 18 episodes is the lead up from 2019, whatever, until we get to the events of Shee Hulk and right or five years, whenever it is. And that's when Deborah and Foggy snapped back. Because if, if this is in the same universe, they have to spend that show explaining why Daredevil has not only not been around, but also how he's in that universe. If it's not in that universe because Vanessa Fisk has been cast as new actors, the rumor is, then they have to explain how John Mertthal, Charlie Cox,

and Danofi are our Nexus Beans? How are everyone the same look? And like I get Wanda being a Nexus being and maybe Dr. Strange. But the idea that all of your actors are nexus beings, they also have to like parallel to that. So they got to work. There's a lot. There's a lot. There really is a lot from all.

And in general, look, this is a really great discussion overall. Not going to lie, I wish it was done in studio, but what are you going to do? But we tomorrow will be back on, oh, not tomorrow, a little later on today, by the way. We're going to be on the website. So the question harlough.com, you can sign up for it right now. You got to go to the link in the description or pin comment, sign up, register. It's free. Head on over there.

Learn about everything that we're going to be doing today. Winston will be there. Coy will be there. Roxy, Steph, Brett, Kate, Mike Kalanowski. The whole crew is going to be there tonight. And you guys can be there exclusively, the virtual event we are doing tonight. But thanks to my crew here today, Winston and Coy, for being with me talking about this stuff. Winston, where can they find you?

You can find me, add the swaggy blurred on all the things, man. Definitely check me out over on YouTube. We've got the Watch the Throne podcast. We're doing the Bel Air reviews as well as, you know, I've mainly been just covering a lot of the kind of comic book and action stuff similar to what we're doing here over on my channel. But then you can also find me on TikTok for as long as it lasts. It's probably dead by the time you're reading this.

So, you know, I will put some of, if that's the case, I guess we're moving with some of that stuff to YouTube shorts and Instagram. Swaggy Blur, just come find me. It's all good. I'm Coy Jondro. At Coy Jondro. You can find me on YouTube where I'm doing a lot of of like not as comic-y stuff and very comic stuff, doing the actual comics every week as well as

I saw Air, I saw John Wick, I saw Dungeons and Dragons. So I've got reviews of all those things over there while I'm doing all the comic-y stuff everywhere else. I'm trying to diversify air is incredible. But most of all, if you're at WonderCon on Friday, I'll be there with the new rock stars. And on Sunday, we're making a big announcement at Real Rejects. We have the first Real Rejects live panel at 11 a.m. Sunday making a big announcement. And then next weekend, I'll be at MegaconCon with Zach Levi, Charlie Cox, Vincentononononononofrio, John Bernthal, sitting down with, sitting down with, I got 14 panels,

14 panels in four days. So be in Florida, I'm gonna be there. It's gonna be crazy. Joe Cassada, we're gonna talk craziness. I'll see you there, hopefully. So crazy, punched himself in the face during that thing. It's great to have everybody on this show.

And I hope that Coy, not only asked Zach Levi the Hardin questions, I hope he asked the Dear Devil crew about what is this thing, is a Netflix thing. But again, I'm not writing his stuff. He's got to,

he's got to decide what's more important to him. join us here on capes and cows we really appreciate you we'll see a little later on today for the big event but remember show a little hit that button 100,000 we're going to get there by the end of the year and you guys are going to make it happen so help us get to 100,000 subscribers today make sure you like comment check out our sponsors get sunday.com slash big thing and athletic greens.com slash big thing help yourself out help out the show for Winston, Koi and myself, capes and cows. Peace.