The Kristian Harloff Show - Is The Batman the Best Version of Batman? SPOILERS

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

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well, I'm not going to spoil this. And, wow, I'm not going to spoil that. We're going to spoil everything. So if you haven't seen the movie, stupid to be on this show right now. I'll tell you that. Because we're going to be spoiling the hell out of it. But you guys should show a little bit of class.

Just an ounce. And look at this. The boys haven't even seen this. Look at that. Show some class. Hopefully that shirt. It'll be on the store very soon. But show a little bit of class.

Click the like button. All of it, the notification. The whole deal, everybody. It's the big thing. It's myself. It is Coy, Jandrew, and Winston Marshall. We're excited to get at it, man, because I haven't really talked to these guys.

I talked to Winston about it a little bit because we saw it together. We haven't really talked to Coy, who's seen it 75 times already. All right, here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, it is the big thing. It is the Batman Spoiler Review. Let's get at it. What's up, everybody? Welcome back.

to the show. What a show it will be. Last time we did the Spider-Man. No way home. Not only did it do close to 100,000 views, we went for six hours. We went two times longer than the Batman. It was long.

But we're going to get at it. And so joining me, as always, Winston A. Marshall is here. Coyby, J. Andrew is here. Make him a new afternoon every week. So that's the middle lane this week. And that's it. So yeah, man, let's just get into this thing.

So we all, it looks like, and correct me if I'm wrong, Winston and I like the movie a lot, Coy loved it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I'm really curious what you guys experienced because I know we generally see eye to eye on movies, but I think a few of your critiques are a few of my strengths. I'm really excited for this conversation. I don't think you really there's going to be, I don't think you're going to agree with

yourself in a second year because I. That happens often. Yeah, I think when I, my biggest critiques I've been mentioning in the non-spoiler, and we can start with that, is it's to me, and I think Winston and I, we share the same thing. There's a few shots that go on really long. I thought it was, it's two hour, 40 minute movie or whatever it is. It could have easily been 215 and been fine. And the ending of the movie, to me, the entire movie that was so fascinating was the detective story that I've been waiting for for Batman for so long. It was so great.

The promise of seven and Zodiac, they delivered 100 times over. But when you get to the ending, the ending to me was a bit comic bookie. And not the same thing. Like I didn't think it was as satisfying as the rest of the movie. I liked it, but it didn't think it was as satisfying as,

I mean, because I was locked into this movie. Like the first like half an hour, shit, first like two hours. I was like on the edge of my seat going, okay, they kept going back and forth with that, with that detective story. When they did it.

And then after the Ridler goes to jail, and I'm glad that now I can talk about these, after he goes to jail, that starts to tail off a little bit. And when they go so hard into the Selena Kyle, what's his name, Falcone, Falcone storyline, that lost me a little bit. Is that, so, Coyle, let me ask you, Batman lore.

Was that ever an angle ever, or that she was his daughter? So what I really enjoyed is this, is largely based on the long Halloween. It even starts on Halloween. They say dates, which is very long Halloween. I really thought this was going to be the long Halloween. What's great is I, as a comic book fan,

watched the trailers and went, oh no, Falcone, guy with big, thick glasses, I figured out the ending. Because the long Halloween is the son of a falconi is the big twist at the end, and Batman Thomas Wayne's father saves Falcone. So the sins of the father is the fact

that Falcone only exists because of Thomas Wayne. And that is a part of the movie. That is addressed, but I was so afraid the twist would be that Ridler was the son or Ridler was the orphan in that way. Like Norse Ridler is the orphan in the film, but not in that element. So the Selena Kyle is a twist on a twist.

So it is a part of comic lore, but they added an extra twist for comic fans so we wouldn't guess it from the trailers. Because I was really worried I had because sometimes comic movies, you know, if you've read the comic, you've kind of spelled it out. But in this case, they twist on the twist.

I don't think I love the fact that she was his daughter. I didn't care. I was fine. Like, honestly, I thought it was fine for them to take a few liberties and do that, and I thought that it worked. What we both kind of agree on, my issue was there were certain things

that we put too much energy into that we didn't need to. So, for example, the biggest one for me that by this point, I was like, I get it, the movie's over, they love each other. It's the motorcycle leaving the graveyard because that ultimately ended up being

like 90 seconds worth of shot of them driving away. You could have got to done. than 30 seconds. And it just kind of, it implemented more and more, or like it stamped more and more little things throughout the film.

And adds time, man. It just adds time for no reason. Sorry, I was going to trust that I don't want to. No, no, no. That's all I was kind of getting at. There would be little moments where this thing is beautifully shot. Let's, let's be 100% honest. This thing is gorgeous.

Oh, yeah. So people who are watching right now, don't worry. This is probably the only negative stuff we're really going to say about this movie. I agree. I wanted to get it out of the way now because, like I said, The length is this up, and I don't want to harp on it. Like we've talked about it enough. No, no, no, no. The ending, though, did you think the ending was a little, you know,

how, it was such a smart movie. It was so smart. It was so, like, I loved that, that integration of the seven, just darker detective story. It was so close to going rated art. It just felt like it was, right? Yeah, it was 15 in Europe, so that's like. It just felt it, you know, and, and I was so on board with it that the ending,

didn't the ending feel like a regular comic? Can I ask what you mean by ending? Are you specifically talking about dealing with everything in the arena? Yeah, there's stuff in the arena. No, no, no, I don't even remember the group. The graveyard was just a goodbye. I thought you meant like the ending it. I'm talking about the main stuff, the arena.

They go to Gotham Square Garden, which I love Gotham Square Garden, which is awesome. And just the fact that anybody could be Ridler and it wasn't actually Ridler, just a bunch of lunatics up on the thing. And then it was, you know, it didn't take them very long. What I loved about the scene was the continuation of, the pure rage of Batman. So I want to address a few things. First, your moment,

and this is what I thought was going to happen, is the thing, one of the things that I thought was a strength is a lot of people's critique. And I like that this film isn't for everyone, and I like that it's not exactly approachable. And I enjoy the fact that every time it held on a frame too long, that was more lifelike.

Like, life moves at you slowly in moments of duress, and there's times that you need to lean back and absorb the brooding and the gloom and the atmosphere wouldn't work if it's shot like a modern movie. If this was 220 or 230, I don't think it would have worked. Really?

I honestly feel, and that's why, and I thought this would be our difference of opinion is, I feel like this movie doesn't work if it's shorter because you need to feel the gloom and the dread, you need to absorb into the movie. If this movie feels like an action film, or even a thriller,

or even, like David Fincher movies aren't things you have on comfortably. I don't disagree what you're saying here, but the thing is, I don't think if you lose what Winston's saying, if you, if you're holding on a shot for an extra 20 seconds. 60 seconds are necessary because you're going like gloom dude you still get me the idea seconds of them saying goodbye versus 90 is a big difference when he shows up in that first scene and that beautiful the bet nobody's going to argue about the michael gikino's score which oh which is perfect incredible when he shows up on that scene alone that i mean i leaned over to winston when that happened i said i fucking love this man he did we were 10 minutes in and already christians like this is crazy fucking man

Okay, let's use your example of the last, because that's a perfect example of a scene that's longer. So you've got them, her taking off first, him watching her. That's 10 or 15 seconds. You feel the remorse. You feel the things that you're saying we could do quicker. Then it's them going pace to pace.

And that's you going like, hey, this is him in a moment saying goodbye and wanting to go with her. That's him catching up to her and them riding pace to pace. I read that less of that and more of like the nature of their relationship, which tends to be very cat and mouse, very playful. Yeah.

I don't have a problem with that. It went on for so long. These pieces is a different thing. And we're just using this as the micro to the macro. It was this. Do you have a two shot yet of me and Koi? No, you know what? I can make one.

Okay, I'll let you make one. And I will show you. In the next three hour of this review, we're going to get this two shot. It's going to change the game. But again, there are moments where I think it's so appropriate. There's this really great angle they get of the dude when he has the bomb strapped to him at the funeral,

where he is freaking out. That's me. Those holds are so important because you're like, oh my God. The flare holds. Like there's a lot of good. Those are all great. I'm not against any of that. I'm not even against the slow approach because we're dealing with a noir film.

The slow approach in the beginning of Batman coming up on those clown gang members because every time he walks in, the fact that it's like, funk. Yeah, that's the brood. And that's that I'm sending the gloom as I think necessary. I don't have a problem with that. It's just they were, the one that sticks out the most because it was the very end. then I was like, Jesus Christ, okay. This was that last one. I'm excited to watch it again this weekend.

So I can see if they're like, I can pinpoint other moments because it was something that subconsciously I absorbed. They keep doing this. I did feel like it could move faster the second time. And that's one of the first things I said to you is like, because you're in watching it the first time, there's such this dread. There's such this, oh, that is positive for getting the tone across,

but it's also heart. So I think the second time I was like, I know what's coming next. I know what I'm feeling. And you have the, fun of like knowing what the mystery is. Like you have the piecing it together. I get that.

And so, so all that being said, man, like I'm going to get into a lot of my goods. Like, first of all, in my ranking of Batman films, it's actually bumped itself up to my third favorite Batman film.

Wow. It didn't pass, it didn't pass. Can I move them like Mike out of your way. It didn't pass, uh, Dark Night or Begins, but it did pass every other Batman film for me.

So I'm like, let it just be very well known. I actually really, really like this film. Sam, same. Sam. Like,

and here's the, thing that Coy brings up that I definitely said in my reviews is that I definitely want to see this movie again because 92% of households that start the year with Peloton are still active a year later. 92% because of a bike? Not just bikes. We also make treadmills and roars. Oh, let me guess for elite athletes only, right? Nope. It doesn't matter if you're an avid exerciser or new to working out. Peloton can help you achieve your fitness goals. 92% stick with it. So can you. Try Peloton bikes, tread or row, risk-free with a 30-day home trial. New members only. Not available in remote locations.

See additional terms at one peloton.com slash home-dash trial. I feel that now that I know that it's a longer movie going into it, that I probably, as Coy just said, will have less problems with it once I watch it because there's so much to enjoy with it. I mean, even if we start with the beginning of the movie, right, and the idea of what I loved, and even, and I think that there was like three or four times I leaned over to Winston, and I said, I love the film noir thing that they're going with. You know, the most detective Batman that you ever got, for sure.

And they start with the, what is it, the mayor who gets killed by the Ridler right away. And you know the kind of tone that they're setting up for. And then the first time you see it and the voiceover from Robert Pattinson, something in the way, the way that they use it. I didn't mind that they used it twice. I thought it was very well used. And then that score, it's almost like it's like pieced from that something in the way. there's just so much pain and angst with this version of Bruce Wayne.

And I said that Bruce Wayne is hardly in this movie. That's one of the strengths for me. I love that we don't have Bruce Wayne. That is not a weakness for me. I think that actually plays well in this because I think that Bruce Wayne has to he's discovering himself and they even say it and the Ridler says it. That's who you are, dude. That's who you are.

He has to invent the Bruce Wayne persona. And a lot of people are like, I don't like Patinson's Bruce Wayne. I'm like, we haven't met him yet. He's a broken. figure that as a mask that is the, he literally eats berries. Like he's Batman. He's eating bat food. Like he hasn't figured out who Bruce Wayne Playboy is yet. So I love that personally.

No, and I get that because we're dealing with year two. But it was, it took me a back because the one thing we do know about Bruce, I think those first opening years is Batman. We see a lot of folly and fault there. But kind of what we got from Batman begins, this whole art of deception, it's not that he had mastered being Bruce Wayne yet, but he felt comfortable enough in his Bruce Wayne's skin to let people see whatever said Playboy so he can go and do whatever he wants. Right. So like if we had seen a couple stumbles here and that it'd be one thing, it's another

thing for all of a sudden for him to still be full-blown kind of like depressed teenager mode. When again, his parents were murdered at 10, dudes like 20 something at this point. I think it addresses the mental illness that Bruce Wayne has a little cleaner because if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're willing to punch dudes in the face to solve a problem to that level. Like, you're not okay. So I think having him be that broken helps the believability, the groundedness. I get it. But to me, what you're talking about, someone not being okay in that regard, that is

when he's having those rage moments. So, like, for example, at the end, he hits the adrenaline shot. And so his rage fully goes over and he's beating the ever-loving hell out of that last dude dressed like the Riddler before he snaps out of it. Like, oh, you got him, you got him. You know what I mean? But I bought emo, Wayne. Like I bought, like, I like, I like, I like, I like, some people, you know, cope by having a persona.

Some people cope with sadness. And we now, I think we need more movies that have multiple people being cast as different archetypes. I just think it's a little more realistic this way, even more so than bail. Than even bail, yeah. Because it's, this, this is the kind of mentality that you would go through if, if this is what you. Because if he's sorrowful inside and playboyish outside, there's a bigger dichotomy. Yeah, and I think you're right. We haven't seen that version of him yet because he's still creating.

and that's what Andy Circus is trying to get out of him. Right. And he's saying you got to play the part of your brother. He was shocked to see him in a suit. Like that's an important moment. Yeah. I bought it at moments like when he realized he has to go talk to Falcone and see is my dad really a horrible person. Yeah.

I bought those moments because that's now he's having a crisis of conscience. He's like, have I been wasting my time for no reason? Like if my dad actually a mobster himself, that I totally. But like for him to kind of keep that tone the whole time, it just. just it was it was a good performance from Robert. It did it fully fit for me in that regard just because again, he is so hell bent on this vengeance tour and even calling himself vengeance. How recently have you read, I don't know if you have, David Musciati, not David Musciati, uh, Frank Miller and I forget the artist's name right now, but year one. Uh, it's been a minute. Because year one, Bruce Wayne is kind of just a shell of a man. And I know this is year too, but it's early year two. So I feel like it embodies that I don't know who I am yet. What do I represent? That didn't bother me at all. I actually really.

like that. Okay. Yeah, me too. It was one of the strengths for me. 100% because he is still inside of all that pain and figuring out. He doesn't really care. He's kind of detached. And that's why I like this version. People are like, oh, he's going to have a very different relationship with Alfred here. Yeah. And he does. And I like that because we haven't seen that side of it. So when we see him trying to figure it out and Alfred trying to pull it out of him and then

that wonderful scene that they have in the hospital. Oh, it's beautiful. Which is a great scene. Yeah. It's just so really it's so all of that fits together very well. This is my favorite Commissioner Gordon Batman relationship. I'm glad you brought that up too because I think that that was the stuff that I, as I mentioned with the detective stuff, I just remember. And even though it was,

and it was very, very far, nothing compared to the Adam West Batman tone. Sure. But the stuff I used to love about the Adam West Batman was when Batman and Commissioner Gordon would work together in trying to figure out the crime. Because you've got the trust, he doesn't trust Batman,

then he doesn't trust cops, he doesn't trust this, but they form this. bond and then you see that come to a beautiful rare comedic moment and that the like you got to and they're like angrily glaring's like i think he mootin lights as a cop that whole sequence is peak and how about when he says to him and when he and when yeah you should pull the punch i did did like there's so his voice the batman voice rocked yes it was absolutely the way to do it so good he was like he didn't overcook it yep he wasn't talking like yes no he just dropped an octave

and i love bail but but as compared to this is the best batman we've now gone through the movies we can compare. Now, I'll get my one main negative, but so you guys don't seem like contrarians. And then we get into the positives because there are many. My main negative is the movie is so grounded because of the things that I like that a lot of people won't like holding long shots, like letting it be emo Batman because he would be letting the movie feel somber in 70s. This movie has more DNA with Chinatown. The Batman begins. This movie is very methodical. That said, it does make the dichotomy between the real and the extra real, the surreal, the

just elevated beyond reality, too much. So I loved Penguin, I loved Ridler, I love those things. I love Tweedledee and Tweedledum. I don't know how much I'm gonna- Oh my God, that was Tweedledee and Tweedledo-D. How did I knock? The twins! Twizzled D and Tweedledon.

The guns got in the door. But I did not, because of that, love a couple moments like the glider sequence worked for me on top and on bottom, but when he's soaring, there was a couple extra shots and I was like, oh, this doesn't quite fit the universe. And then the big one was the Joker. I've got to acknowledge that scene

would have worked. We were talking about it before as a post-credit scene because in the middle of the movie, it felt like, well, it wasn't in the middle. But like, within the film, like, within the framework of the two hour of 56. I had an issue with the movie feeling super grounded and then we have this full-am-Arcum sequence that doesn't

feel like the same Arkham that we just visited Riddler in. Yeah, go ahead. It's not just that. It was the timing of when we decided to visit. saying like in the framework of the film that should have been a put we talked about this off camera that should have been a post credit that's because it wasn't that the scene is bad and it wasn't that the movie couldn't allow for that joker and i think barry kogan's going to kill it i got colman said exactly what he said that exactly what planet were you on i literally said those words

you just you just you was being nice because you i was listening i was letting to go by you should have said this okay look look look you just said the exact word i'll be 100% on it I recently, because someone else in my family just got tested for ADHD and found out that they have it, I genuinely think, because I heard what Koi said. And then her peer to bag them. But for some reason, my brain didn't process it. So all I heard was this didn't fit. I didn't hear him say time wise. You legit, you legit, Koi went.

Yeah, it was, it just didn't fit in the context of the movie. It would have been great as a post credit scene. You went, not only that, it didn't fit in the context. But it would have been good at a great post credit scene. And I was not going to let you get away with that. I just couldn't. I couldn't let you get away with that. I didn't meet to because I heard what Koi said for my brain.

Roy was so nice. I literally was like, you know. He was so nice. He didn't, because you could see it in his face. He's like, I just said that. I heard the English. I literally thought I was wrong. Like, I looked to you so sincerely.

I was like, I must not have said what I was thinking. Man, I wish I knew. I wish I knew. I apologize. I apologize. So, Winston was not home for all. That was amazing. You're on a 90 second shot of Batman and Catwoman driving off.

Winston was not home. I want to rewatch that because I like in my brain was going like, I thought I said that out loud, but I must have said the quiet parts in my, okay. He needs some milk. Yeah, I do. I'm going to get to spend back on the planet.

But you agree with me. I think you might agree with me verbatim. Apparently. I agree with you. It's just, it's literally from the standpoint of we look at, we look at Penguin. And let's talk about Colin.

and Farrell first. Steels every scene he's in. Well, wait, before you get to Confer, because we're going to spend a lot of time. I want to address the moment. Yeah, the Barry Cogan's because I think Cogan will kill it. I like him a lot. I didn't realize until you said that that's who it was because I also

didn't love that scene. I think I agree with you and Winston, apparently, that it would have been better as a post-credit scene because it would have been more effective that way and it almost sets up who we're getting on the next one. But it was, it just seems so out of place at the time that it was put

in there. And as you were saying, the tone of it just didn't fit the rest of the film. And then went back to the tone. Right. That was the issue. Right. What we're saying is it goes like, oh, because I don't mind. If you look at the movie itself, it's actually Batman going from vengeance to Batman.

I don't know. I actually think it's Batman going from vengeance to Batman. Splish, splash. I was taking a bath. And I noticed, I have beautiful balls. That's right. Our friends at Manscape, the global leaders in below the waist hygiene, they're turning men's shower, into their favorite routine with the all new ultra premium collection.

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like that all right now back to batman i agree i agree did i say that did i just we're just gonna go wow so i yeah yeah yeah i feel like in this in the same way we see bruce way start to develop the persona, we see him go from vengeance to Batman. I also think we can go from a movie that's grounded, grounded, grounded, to escalate, escalate, escalate, get to that Joker. But I would have loved three minutes of credits in between to let me settle and then

bring that elevation up because the next movie can have more comic elements. We already have had Gotham flood. I think we are getting more of jokes and riddles, which I know we've talked about before. And like, you know, I think as a post credit scene, that Joker's seen worse. Just look, look, look, look. Did you all ever watch the movie Pootie Tang?

Yes. Do you remember, do you remember where Chris Rock had his boy with the ball of the tubbs. He's like, man, it's so hot outside. It's so hot. I should be butt-ass naked. It's hot as hell, man. I should be down in Africa right now.

If I was in the slave time, I'd be out here being like, damn, I want some water. And then his friend goes, yeah, it's hot out here too. Like, I literally feel that's just going to, y'all are just going to roast me for that. Yeah, for the meth. Yeah, I mean, why? The question is, why were you doing that? I wish I knew. I wish I knew.

I wish I knew. I wish I knew. Let's try to get back on track. So we, but yes, so that scene. My only negative, really. Yeah. And that, and that still isn't huge. It's just, I would have liked the introduction to be a little smoother.

Well, the question is when they bring. What I will say also, and it's not a Matt Reeves thing, and it's probably a Warner Brothers thing. I just, with all the other villains that they could possibly bring in. And I'm usually always on board for the Joker. It's like, let's give the Joker a break. We had a Joker singles movie. We had Heath Ledger. We've had, uh, what's his face?

Jared Leto. We've had all these jokers recently. I'm not saying I don't ever use them again. I'd make him a third movie villain. That's what I'm saying. I'd personally go, Mr. Freeze, build up court of owls, third movie war jokes and riddles, if they let them do a fourth court of owls full-blown. Yeah, so anything, look, I would be okay with Two-Face again.

I would be okay with Scarecrow again. I would say go a whole new direction and go with Hugo Strange. Fine. Like literally, because now that you've been introduced to Arkham, that is a perfect way to segue to Strange. And then if you're, you know, want to bring some of the other villains into it because of that, that's fine. And that keeps Joker and Arkham.

And they very well might be doing that. And what I will say, though, on the positive side, I do like the fact of the Joker and the Ridler working together. That we haven't seen you. The War of Jokes and Riddles, you'd love. It's only six issues, man. It's literally the Joker has lost his ability to laugh. Yeah.

And it's a Riddler trying to get Joker to laugh again. Right. And it's this odd. So this I like because what we can do, then we will navigate the conversation with, because I do want to get to Colin Farrell, but let's stay there and go with the Ridler because I can see the argument for it. I might be making the argument for it that Paul Dano was the standout of the movie, right? Like I could under, I could, I've seen a lot of people talking about it, but I could, I could see the argument for it. He was really fantastic because it's a different side of the Ridler.

It is absolutely that John Doe Ridler, what I loved about what I've been saying, what they pitched in this trailer, you got. Also, can we talk about the fact that the trailers were mainly from the third act of the film? So many of the iconic shots, like the flare shot, that's the end of the movie. The kid carrying out is literally one of the last shots in the film. All the shots we saw from the paparazzi photos were the last bike scene chase. Most of the things we were exposed to were the third act. I don't think I've ever seen a movie where I was like, wait a second, now that it's over, this is the stuff I'd seen. All the trailers, even the last shot of Penguin was the only major act one shot that they pulled.

It was the, was that it was like, who the hell do you? But otherwise, like, even the penguin shots, that golden penguin shot was the last shot of them. And they duped us a few times, too, in the trailer, which I like. Like, what the one, the main, one of the main dupes was where people kept saying, oh, looks like Ridler knows it's Bruce Wayne. Genius. It was really smart because I was getting upset at the end. I'm like, well, we already know you showed me in the trailer that he knows who he is. Yeah.

Bruce Wayne. And I'm like, okay, we know that you know who he is. And then he's like, and then you see Bruce Wayne, he's like, he doesn't know that. The second he says he. He's the only one we didn't get is, now I know we just said we'd say I'm Poldano, but I need to acknowledge that Patinson's eyeballs are the best thing I've seen portray a comic book character.

Like literally just this, because he did this incredible thing where the white of the bat eyes is the thing everyone wants to see because of the animated series. So he would always be looking off sides to have as much white as possible, but it would also stay menacing and low, so he was looking aggressively at people. So he maximized the white of his eyeballs while showing empathy,

while showing rage, while showing all these things. he was like Tom Hardy eyeball acting. No guns. It was so good. Yeah. If you were to both nominate Farrell and Dano for supporting actor, I would be completely on board just because we saw plenty of Dano in like the ransom screamings

and like the riddle with the dude with the bomb and all that. That's great. But then obviously you get Arkham, Dano and you're like, holy shit. The cafe shot for me. When the cop head is his forearm on his neck, he starts to smile. And his face goes through eight emotions and then his reverence of Batman that you don't realize his reverence till the review. Right.

Well, that's the straight-up stuff. That's the John. Oh, genius. Right. He's a Zodiac killer. Absolutely it is. And they play that very,

very well inside of it. But Colin Farrell, as we jump into that, now he's unrecognizable, first of all. The makeup is... The amount of crap I got... Dude, the first trailer came out

and I was like, Colin Farrell looks great in this. And the amount of internet trolls, they were like, Colin Farrell's not in this. And I was like, Colin Farrell's the penguin. They're like,

no, he's not. And I literally have been like waiting for this movie to come out. Yeah, he is... He is so good. He is completely lost into the role and he jacks into the part of Penguin

that is that. He wants to kind of be this big time thing. He's not actually out here trying to mix it up and cause trouble until you step on his toes and then the penguin

a switch flips where he goes full mobster. He's like, you all fuck with my money. Right. Twice we see it and it's beautiful because he stays controlled

in the club until not. Many times he does it and this is why as we mentioned the beginning of it, sure are the length, sure are things of the convict tone.

You can't argue that A, the music is beautiful, the direction is beautiful, the writing is brilliant. So the writing inside of this and what they did a couple different times as I'm saying what they dup us,

where you could assume, okay, looks, I thought penguin could be the rat. I'm like, all right, maybe he's the rat. And I love that the bad Spanish, the scene with him saying like,

do you guys not speak, no, a spaniio? That was so funny. And when he's doing that whole thing, and when he's, that thing that we see in the trailer when Batman is going after him

in the Batmobile and coming after him and then he and he corners him and finally he gets to that spot and he's just like I'm not I'm like I'm the definition of a gangster like he's a pure definition of the gangster and he would he wouldn't rat anybody out that was the moment that I said now I know why they've greenlit the HBO Mac show I cannot wait to see six hours of penguin that's now I know now I understand why yeah and now because end it's actually a beautiful lead into the next they said it's going to be within the next five years. for Batman 2. So it could be a bit. What I love is we're getting a penguin show. It sounds like an Arkham tie. We're not getting the HBO Max show for a little while. No, no, the Batman 2 for a little

while. We're getting Penguin soon. So this is a way to show Gotham as it adjusts. And then you can set Batman to in real time. You can have Batman come later. I finally got a movie though that, because the movies that he's usually, he's always great. He's one of my, he's always stuck being handsome. But he's one of my, he's one of my favorite actors, but he's always too handsome. He's good look at two. He's been in stuff that just, you know, but his best performance, in my personal opinion, was what he did in, um, in this Mr. Banks, the,

the, saving Mr. Banks, Tom Hanks movie. That's good. He was, he was really good in Bruges, but he was really good in Bruges, but he did something.

He was way more vulnerable in Mr. Banks. He rolled back and watched Mr. Banks again, to me, that's his, his best performance. He was passed over for that. Everybody was talking about other people, not, not him. he's been whether every franchise he always joins it doesn't pop the way it does fantastic piece where they ruined him they should it they should have been the guy with such a and now there's

three characters as that guy and now that's why I'm not going to argue against him being one of the main standouts because he is in this and now him getting his own show it's it's absolutely the right call because it leads up now with him being the gangster inside of it I wouldn't mind him being the main guy in the second. I honestly feel like he's Irish Brad Pitt where like you look at him and you cast him as a certain thing and he doesn't always want to play that thing. So for me, this was getting to see Colin Farrell go like, I want to play a character part. Let me sink my teeth into it. Let me go full crazy. And that's going to allow for six hours that in the show. We're going to get a mafia, you know, crime element hierarchy. We could get Narcos in Gotham. We're going to get so many ways to introduce like

B and C level villains. This is where you could put like condiment king and weird stuff. Like you could do all of that at HBO Max, and apparently it's going to be R-rated because of the success of Peacemaker. Right. So because of all this, and apparently Colin Farrell was like fighting for a cigar and a few things you can't do in R-rated in PG-13 movies. Since Peacemaker was so successful, we're going to get a very different penguin than we've ever seen.

So I think Colin Farrell, for me, was the MVP next to the Patens Nyes. But Colin Farrell, like, doesn't get to do this enough. And I really think, hopefully this is a let actors put on weird makeup and do this stuff and, like, dive in it and trust in them because this was beautiful. Well, and like this, this is the kind of stuff, to be honest with you, all of the, if you already mentioned Scorsese and I missed something, say something now. Not yet. Okay, we're going. Great. So if this is a moment where all of a sudden, if this is something. It's actually Scorsese. If this is where, you know, I think you can already make an argument with a lot of stuff we've seen superhero wise that it's still cinema and all that. And I know that he's been a big, but this is one of those moments where what you see out of Farrell, what you see out of Dano, what you're seeing out of Pat and. and you can throw everything he said out the window, honestly.

Well, you should have thrown it out the window the second he said. I agree. But this is the, even like, I said this is more like Logan evolved. Like this is, you know what I mean? Like, it's a film. I'm very curious to see now because we do have a lot of random DC properties that are floating about right now. How much, for example, does peacemaker and the suicide squad tie this if it does it all?

I don't think it touches it. I think that they might be separate universes. I think Matt Reeves wants that and I think we should keep it that way. I think keep this as far from everything as possible. I agree, and I think you have plenty of different iterations and the fact that we have multiverses. So if you even want to one day let that be the anchor in, I'm cool with that.

DC Black Label doesn't touch the regular books. To me, this felt like DC Black Label. Where, like, you know, the rest of DC can dabble. This feels like it's a different prestige format book. It's bigger. It even feels like it's on different paper. No. You know what I mean?

Also, the way this is shot, having the edge of frames be kind of, you know, that when the distortion happens because the lenses you use on film stock, I love that there are a moment you could grab a frame and it would look like a Scorsese film from the 70s. Not only that, but I like that you can take a frame. It looks like a Scorsese moment.

We're going to act by actor, and I do want to go back to Patinson, but I think Zoe Cravitz doesn't get enough love. And I know Zoe wasn't playing. Their chemistry is so good. So good. And really sexy. She played the version of Commissioner Gordon. Like, she was the inverse of Gordon.

Like, there's even a shot where, you know, Batman's walking through all the cops, and there's that same tension. and then he's walking through the 44 club that she got him in. So Gordon got him into the cops. She got him into the criminals. And I feel like that duality is in the comic books, but they really showed it in the movie.

And I do like the idea how when she's got the, when he's got the tech on, watching through her eyes and she gets frustrated with it. And everything that was going on like to, because I didn't even know what was going on with. It was Scars Guard, you know, when he goes in there and he's, what he's the DA, right? Yeah.

And so as that, And I was, because you've seen him play so many different characters. You don't know where he's going to go. He could be sadistic. He could be charming. He could be anything. So the casting in this movie was so well done because people who you normally think could be good, could be bad, could be slimy. They played it all over.

And Titoro's another one, right? Dude. Because I think I even said that to you. I was like, that's Titoro, right? The only thing I could think of, even though I know he said a lot. The first one of your reference. It's like, you know, was that old boy from Transformers. He's like, that's where you went.

And I was like, I said that. I was like not do the right thing. Not over or art thou? You go with Transformers? It was purely because I had just done a rewatch of Transformers for a Rotten Tomatoes thing. So my brain went to the last thing I saw him in. Okay. Not Jesus.

It was purely because it was the last thing I saw him in not a day prior. So like that that's why. But I just literally was now because then the sad thing is you know what my second reference for Tutero was? You don't mess with the Zohan. Oh, man. You think of his career very differently that I do. You're going to be in Red Carbitt and be like, and now we're with Transformers' own, John Totoro.

Yeah, right? Bitch? Well, I'm actually sure he wouldn't be upset because he's just like, dude, I bought seven of my house. Yeah, he bought so many houses. He's in like three of those, isn't he? Yeah, he's in the first three, I believe. Yeah, I was speaking of money.

But either way, man. So, like, the casting was so well done. And the idea and what they did with Falcone, too. And I like that, I like the way that they maneuvered around to finally show that he was the rat and then the way that even that the piece that selina gets when she sees that he's dead yeah and that she didn't have to do it yeah you saw that that line from batman the line for batman where it's like he needs to pay but you don't have to is so i'm so glad they address the no guns and the no killing so head on and then why it applies and through catwoman why it applies he saved

catwoman while saving his own one rule and i think that's such beautiful storytelling because that's like the third act resolution. A thousand percent, but I love that the contrast to that is the fact that again, when we go back to him hitting the adrenaline, because he's trying to do everything he can to save all these people down below, the fact that he is constantly,

as we know about Batman, writing a very thin line. He is constantly on the edge of just murdering everyone himself. And so to see him lose it because knowing the Rither had planned this far in advance, he'd already murdered all the people he had murdered, and now was about to flood, and kill all of Gotham, and if the water didn't do it, his gunman would.

Like, he was clearly had enough, especially seeing Serena almost getting killed in front of him. So, no, I liked the Riddlers at the end. I felt like it represented the inverse of the bat symbol where it's like in Batman, you always have like people rising up. And in this, you've got the Riddler rising up and then other people following him. And I've heard from a few people that didn't like the whole like, he's an online persona and Twitter follower. But to me, that reads like that.

And this is, this is kind of dark and the movie's dark. but this reads like the evolution of Columbine, like the real problem of the cool kids, Batman, Bruce Wayne, orphan, versus the kids that feel like they're put out in the cold people dying every day in this orphanage. It felt real. It did feel real.

And there was, it was, it was, it was eerie, it was creepy, it was, that was the point. Yeah. And the idea of what, I didn't mind the idea of it. I didn't mind that it just, and how could you get him there? Because he's supposed to be in jail. And his whole point, his whole mission was the fact that,

It was, he was like the anti-batman. It was more about it. It didn't have to be him. It could be anybody. So, so I, it's not that I, it's not that I didn't like it. It just, it was just like, I don't know. Maybe it was the, the, the, the movie purist in me that wanted to see the villain versus the hero at the end.

But I understand because in hindsight, you, you did get that. He fought, he fought, he fought, he fought the same way he's been fighting the whole movie. So it's, that to me is less of a concern. Yeah. It really is. It's just, it's just, the, And I think it'll change with the rewind. There were two things that were interesting about watching that with you,

Christian, because the first thing, I hear what you're saying about me also thinking, wait, you beat the main boss, but you still have a fight left. But to be honest with you, the riddler of all of his rogues gallery would have that.

He is not physical. Right. There are very few elements where, where riddler in any iteration decides he wants to go hand-to-hand with Batman. He is constantly messing with him, whether it's with the riddles or with henchmen. So that actually I bought pretty well. It was really funny because Christian hated the fact that the mayor decided to go out and try and calm people down.

And I was like, that actually reads why. No, no, no, no. That's not why I got upset. You said because someone said it was dangerous. Why are you going out there? To say this, if she says, I need to make a speech here. I need to tell people. And the commissioner goes, don't go out there.

And she goes, I got to go. And doesn't go. No one goes with her. Your problem was with commissioner. My problem was that no one went with. I thought it was with her doing that. I think it was silly for her to go out by herself when she knows that there's stuff going on. That it's like, okay, fine.

They didn't know shooters yet. They didn't know shooters. It doesn't matter. There's a crazy lunatic out there where anything can happen. And she's a elected official. But that's why I bought that. I've got that. I honestly bought that.

But it's bad leadership because she should, she should, because she's such a good leader and she's making such a difference that she should know that she can't sacrifice herself. She should say, all right, then hey, a hole number one. A hole number two, I'm making a speech, let's go. And they should be flanking her because she goes out and she gets shot. But it's the same thing as like Aaron Eckhart's two face where like he puts himself in the line of fire to be the face, the figurehead. Like he doesn't just basically step out. I mean, you could- He clocked that dude with the gun in the middle of the court.

Like he does it proactively. I think she was being proactive. I'm excited with Coyle on this one where I get what you're saying where like you're supposed to protect the king at all costs, right? I get that. I think that was one of those moments that you see in all of those speeches that where you have. I get why she did it. What I'm saying is it doesn't make any sense for whoever it is. Like the Secret Service.

I'm saying the President was the issue. What I'm saying. Hold on. Hold on. The Secret Service is protecting the president. Right. And the president and they say, sir, you shouldn't do that. And the president goes, I'm going.

The Secret Service just stands behind. They go. Yeah. So whether or not it's not her choice. That's not me arguing with the choice that she should have went. Her character choice was, I don't give a shit. It was out there. I'm making this choice.

Right. where was her protectors? I don't care. Well, they're saying the people inside. No, they're going to flank her at all times. I agree right. I will buy that a thousand percent. The way you were positioning it before is like it was stupid for her to go.

And I was like, well, yeah, she's putting herself in danger. Yeah, it was ballsy and stupid for her to go. But it's not, she, in no world should she have the character, the character was set up there where she wouldn't go, all right, I'm not going to go. She should go. Right. But anyone who, the people watching her, you better protect her ass. Because if not, it's not her fault.

It's your fault. She got shot. Sure, sure. I'll give you that. That's where I was coming from. It just made no sense that she would go out there by herself. She wouldn't. And I'll tell you what Batman needs.

That means to pay attention to his lawn. Who the hell's taking care of Wayne Manor when he's running around beating up criminals? Because I know you guys aren't thinking about it. But spring, it's almost here. So close. The grass, it's almost that feeling under our feet. It's almost there. But you have to get you lawn back in shape.

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And the good thing is that Sunday is offering our listeners 20% off. Full season plan started $129 and you can get 20% off at checkout, but you've got to visit get sunday.com slash big thing 20. That's 20% off your custom plan at get sunday.com slash big thing 20. So we talked Zoe, we talked Penguin, we talked Ridley, we talked Batman, we talked to Alfred briefly. Andy, sir, but we, I mean, Jeffrey Wright, I think, is like, what a great, we talked about the, like, them together. Yeah. But I think as far as the commissioner Gordon goes, I want that GCPD show.

I see why that's happening. Oh, is that happening? Oh, yeah. So I, but I like, I was afraid of hearing his voice and equating him to the hundred roles I equate his voice with because his voice is so iconic. Be like if James Earl Jones was Commissioner Gordon, I was afraid I wouldn't be able to separate. What if? Yeah, exactly. But as soon as he was on camera, I was like, oh, he's incredible at that pre-commissioner.

That's what I thought Matt Reeves did very well here by directing all these actors is that we've seen Batman so many different times. They really made it their own. Everyone is a new take. Really made it their own. And the idea of it, even though you're so familiar with Gordon and Batman, you got to see this version of them working together in the idea. Like everyone's like, Jim, what are you doing? Bringing this lunatic around. He's like, I got it.

Right. He's like, I trust this guy. And I loved that we didn't have to get into it again with how he met him, how he did this. It was no pearls. Well, Winston and I were talking about it too. We're like, we're not sure where it took place. Is it year one? And then they mentioned the beginning year two.

I actually love the fact that Bruce is keeping journals. Yeah. That was interesting, too, to be honest with you, that was the kind of jacking in if I'm not mentally okay. Yeah. The fact that he is like, I need to document all of this. Yeah. He wakes up the next morning and reminds himself what happened.

And I love the use of the combination of technology and insight. Like, it's an analog journal with the technology of the glasses. Like, it's so Batman detective, not Batman's supercomputer. Right. It wasn't, because, like, I could see another version of this having him, like, narrate to his computer. Like, the bat computer would be, but instead, it's him literally. And I love that mirroring the Riddler with all of his journals and logs. Like, he's just as close to losing his mind.

But that goes back to what we're talking about with Bruce, what I like to where Alfred's trying to get him to come back and be a version of Bruce Wayne that people see. Yeah. And we have seen, and even Michael Cain version did the same thing where he's just like,

you got to put on the part because he's so just wrapped up in this vengeance. Yeah. And then the other side of it was where I just like what I was worried about and I'm glad that they duped me again twice or two or three times in this movie,

but with the Thomas Wayne stuff. Yeah. Because what I was worried about it was where they were going to go the same route they went with Joe. with Thomas Wayne that he's just a bad dude. I didn't mind it in Joker because Joker's like a just negative. It's just a side story and it's like a,

it's like a just an alternate world, right? It's also the interpretation I always took out of Joker anyway is none of that shit is real. Yeah, I'm not a story to the therapist. Absolutely. So that doesn't bother me at all in Joker. But in this one, I'm like, are they going to make Thomas Wayne a bad dude? And he's not a bad dude. He made a bad choice.

Yeah. And who doesn't relate to that? And I love that the Thomas Wayne thing, like I was talking about with saving Falcone from the comics, it ties into that bad choice because you go like, oh, we saved this guy's life, he's in desperation, that is who he'd turn to. And that is how mistakes happens because that's a bad guy. And when, and he's like, I thought my dad was a good man. He was like, he was a good man.

He's like, he just made a bad choice. He's like, it wasn't for, it wasn't for his political career. It's for your mother. And the Martha Arkham thing's fairly new. And it was really cool to see that little twist because it ties in the legacy of Gotham. Well, it also, but it also, I love that. I love that they kind of went into the, because there's a lot of that. You see the Arkham Games, like, Court of Owls.

There's a lot of, like, what is at the core of Gotham as a city, it's history and all that. But I also love how it loosely ties into what essentially happens in Flashpoint. When Bruce gets killed, Martha loses her mind and becomes the Joker. So they hinted. There's a hint of, like, Martha is on the edge, which also explains Bruce's own mental illness. Well, they did that a lot in this movie. And another one of the things that they pull from that speech from Alfred, which I loved was that it's like when they play on the lore of comics and you're like, well, that's not how it really happened. But wait a minute.

Because he says he's like, it wasn't Maroney. It was Falcone who potentially killed Bruce's parents. So he killed my parents. Like it could have been a random guy too. He literally scribed the way we've seen it a hundred times. It could have been anybody just that night. I don't know. And it's like that was so brilliant.

And I'm like, well, wait a 30 seconds of dialogue. They gave us the entire origin we've seen. They also, when he called him Zorro. Yeah, right, right, right. Yeah, it could have been Napier, right? It could have been some random guy. Cho, chill, like. And then I was like, oh, that's so great.

And I think that when you, that scene, that was probably one of my favorite scenes in the entire movie. I also in the sequence we're talking about with Martha, there's a great comic book nod that I don't know if you caught the hush reference. Yes, I did. So the reporter they're talking about Elliot is one of the big bads of modern Batman, where it's a guy that grew up with Batman. He's a plastic surgeon that can change his face constantly.

Which guy is that? He's hush. So he's wrapped in lots of... Which guy in the movie? The reporter that was trying to reveal Martha's thing. The guy that Thomas accidentally had killed. So in the comic books, that's a character who is a big bad

that's a mystery for 12 issues. A big detective story that goes through all of Batman's villains. It's this awesome, like, kind of a sinister six-ass story where Batman is just taking out villain after villain for a detective story. That could also be in the sequel.

Hush should be badass. If you remember, that was my prediction, is that we were going to end up having a hush That's right. So there was a nod to it obviously, like you said, with the reporter. See, I was paying it. Hey, Winston and I listen to each other. Look at us go on a show.

But I, but that was, that was for me what I was also kind of looking. I was expecting that that's where this was going. Yeah. Because the interpretation they did of Hush as the animated film was that Hush wasn't Elliot. It was the Riddler, had the tumor, got the whole dip in the, the, the, the pits. Lazarus Pitts And then that supercharged his brain

Yeah So that's how he immediately was like Oh duh Bruce Wayne is Batman And then like kind of went from there You know what I mean? I was kind of expecting maybe that's where this was all going to tie in I also found it really interesting I kind of like the fact that that Ridler

Had these multiple aliases So you had the Edward Nigma kind of not As a possible but you're really just not sure Which one is it? And he just like You choose Oh and the way he was talking about walking to him and every time he would do that,

Winston just did, it sounded like a scream, but then we're going to a sentence. It was so good. When they cut to that little hand axe? Did you guys, by the way? Oh, hey. Oh, hey.

There it is. That's coming out too. Damn. I like that. Yo, we get a little bit of them proceeds for the wish our news since we were there for it. Because you were there for it.

Hell no. I'm the one that said it. I'm the one that brought it up. I got us there because I was like, this is the one film that Bruce doesn't reveal himself to the one. And then I go that one.

line of dialogue is hilarious. So we did. I will check the tape. I know exactly what happened. I misquoted it. And I said, and I corrected you. You corrected me,

but I brought up the moment. Oh, so he's taking credit for being... Spodown doesn't do half points? You don't do half points for no one's... Hold on, your microphone's not working. Quick,

Coyce speak over here. It's true. Shazam's greatest team of all time. Yeah, why don't she sell some Merckshire first? Sal can't soap. Did I or did I not? Chopin' up. Swag goddamn hoodie bitch.

That's true. That's real. God damn swag hoodie bitch. There you go. I'm on the wish I knew shirts now. I'm going to wear that way first. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Marks. That's a joke shirt.

But look, there is so much good in this movie. There really is. And I am excited to see it. And do you guys know, because I keep hearing conflicted reports, is it, because obviously it's not on HBO Max. Is it going to be on HBO max? 45. 45.

Because I heard 45 and then I heard 90. 45 is this year's. 45. parameter, yeah. Okay, good. That's, that's great. And also, like, it's so long, it's good to marinate in. Like, it'll be good by that time.

45 is great. Yeah. And that's, yeah. You can let it have its run and also people can wait. Because you're looking at, you're looking at probably May when it, right around May when it comes out. So, and that's right as the summer season is starting anyway. So whether you're going to. Yeah, like late April.

Yeah. But it's also the thing that's beautiful about it is the fact that we'll be on a Dr. Strange by then. So by doing, by doing that, you're giving the people that, you know are super hyped about that at that point they can go have that and then christian who's like okay i wanted to sit with this another time yeah that's all i'm gonna be doing like i'm just gonna i'm gonna kick back and watch it here and and and i probably i can't already see myself because this is this was a very even i said it in in the non-spoiler was that this was a very different like

critique when i had them it was it had nothing to do with any direction it had nothing to do with any the writing it had nothing to do with any of the music it was literally just the fact that i was just feeling it was just, it could have gotten to it quicker. And I realize, and I'm wondering now that when I see it for a second time, that it's going to be less of a thing because I already know. I already know. It feels a lot faster the second time because it's a movie that's about tension and mystery and gloom.

And the second time, you're like, okay, I'm excited for what's coming instead of like trying to piece it together. So the second runtime felt a lot shorter for me. I'm curious to how my, because my wife is a Batman fan, you know, like, and it's, this is a darker one. It's very, it's, and I like, this is the darkest. Batman, I think, that we've got. It's a mental health movie, and I really like that.

Well, yeah, I mean, it couples, it does couple better with Joaquin' Fiennix's Joker than anything. Oh, as far as the universes, yeah, I hope they don't do that, but yeah. They're not going to, but, they're not going to, but I'm just mean, I just mean as far as tone goes, like, the, Joaquin' Joker fit in this than the Barry Keegan one. Especially in that scene, the way they did it. It could work, and I'll tell you why. Remember, if we're taking it from the, the guys of Joker as, you know,

he's been known to do, loves to make up origin stories because we're never going to truly know what it is. He's lying to the therapist as a plan to escape from Arkham. I could see it feasibly working because remember, is Thomas Wayne a bad guy? We don't know. The Joker would make up some BS about him being a bad guy and he may potentially, depending on his connections,

might know that he was connected to Falcone for a half a second. And the description of his image would be through the description of Joaquin's Joker, unreliable narrator. And Bruce being a child could be how he perceives manchild, Bruce Willis. Bruce Willis. Bruce Wallace. That's what I think of Bruce Willis. Fucking man, child.

So I'm not touching that one. But anyway. That's Freud or something else. I'm trying to go with everything else that we hit because the beginning, the music, I mean, the music is still, I got, I have to get that score because it's just. I think it's my favorite superhero score. It's amazing how good Michael G. Kino is because you, there are a lot. I mean, I'm a composer junkie, right? I'm a score.

I love scores. And I can tell, like when James, the late great James Horner, we. would do a score, I could recognize his score like that because he would use a certain, a lot of different instruments. And sometimes, if you listen to like Legends of the Fall and Braveheart, there's a lot of similarities, the things that happen inside of it. And what Michael G. Kino does in this, it's like, you, remember, this guy has done Pixar movies, Star Wars movies, Dawn of the Planet of the Apes, which was a great score.

Spider-Man. Spider-Man. Just did it. And he does this. and they sound so different. Like if you didn't tell me Michael Giacchino did this, I wouldn't know it was him. And that is not easy to do.

It really is. Like Hans Zimmer, you can pick out a lot of Hans Zimmer stuff. John Williams? I mean, there's, I don't know, this was very,

this was an impressive, he's always impressing me. But this is like, it's so radically different than other stuff. Like if you compare like up and this. I've listened to it too, like in the wild. And I don't often do that with scores.

Like I, it's not my thing. So it's really impressive for me that I'm like, I want to listen to this. The only other score that I can think of, composer I can think of, that does something similar is Ludwig. And even Ludwig has a very small signature you can kind of pick out. Yeah, I can tell Ludwig. But Ludwig does a pretty good job of separating him.

I mean, mind you, BobaFet and Mandalorian, if that's like what you're using as the guide in there. Well, he didn't do Boba Fett, though. He didn't. He did the theme. He crafted some of the themes, but he wasn't, he didn't compose the score for the entire series. Okay, okay, great.

But like, so some of the themes, you, But that would make sense because they are so close as characters. You know, black panther. You know, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like Black Panther, Black Panther sounds vastly different from Mandalorian. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But I get what you say. A lot of instruments, but if you, like, and Creed,

but Creed and Mandalorian sound very similar. Yes. And you can connect Creed to Black Panther and Creed to Mandalorian, which connects kind of both, like the Woodwind stuff. His use of drums, his use percussion and Woodwind are really similar in all three. But either way, though, Jekino just puts out a score that, I mean, when the introduction to the Batman theme is like, this is not even my favorite Batman theme.

It's just so good. And that scene, and I love that scene because it also, it just, you learn so much about this version of Batman like that. Like he, he wants to fight. Yeah.

He wants, he's there not just for vengeance. He's there to cause harm. He is. Like, he's not going to kill you, but he's going to mess you up, man,

and he's going to have fun doing it. He loves instilling fear. The fact that they don't go, the standard ninja route except for like the one time. And instead, every time he shows up, it's not like a, is he there? Is he there? It's literally just a, dude, dude, what the hell? He's a brawler.

Because the only time he does it, I want to say, is around when the penguin tries to get away. And so they're all like doing whatever that deal is at that particular time. And then he seems to be like popping out and like randomly taking people out. Otherwise, he's letting you know, I'm coming to whoop your ass. And also, I love how he uses martial arts. defensively with Catwoman. Because that shows his martial art ninja skills, but he doesn't do that with the brawlers because he just brawls.

Like we see a lot of fight styles. Because this fight style, airily, is a totally different more Krob Maga-based like flip fight style than the one when he's brawling on the ground versus Catwoman. And I like that scene. And I like that scene where he's also paying, you know,

tracking her at first and then going back to the mayor's place. And then they had that whole scene where, and that connection that she's got because they show, they dive deep into her. and her connection to the woman who ultimately gets murdered by her dad, you know. And like, so again, the writing of it, it wasn't, and as I said in the beginning of it, I was so locked into the detective story and the John Doe seven things. So when they took that detour with Selena and Falcone, it wasn't that I thought it was badly written.

On the contrary, I actually think it's very well written because they set it up from the get. It's just that's partially what I mean with the length of it, that maybe if you were going to, there are sometimes in movies that things have been cut that work. Yeah. But they were cut to knock the movie down to a little bit more to a 215 or earlier, right? There's certain scenes in like in the prequels. There's a whole scene that happens in the Revenge of the Sith where they, where they're starting like the rebellion.

It's a really good scene with Mon Mothman and everything too. And it actually now connects a lot more stuff now than, and could have been in there, but he would have added another five minutes to the film. but I think that obviously with the way that this all connects with Falcone at the end, I understand why it's in there. It's just, it's too, it, you get to that point that if you start chopping too much out of it, it doesn't connect in the rhythm that Matt Reeves won't.

Yeah, and the detectiveness, you want, you want multiple subplots, so it's not just one linear detective story. But I love that detective story. Man, it's so good. So good. I was, I mean, that's what we've been waiting for Batman forever. And I really love that I didn't, I didn't anticipate a lot of it because I was so afraid having just reread the comics, I ruined it for myself.

And they, I mean, it's clear that they read the comics to subvert comic fan and casual fan expectations. It was true, Winston. So let's go back in time when we were on Clare Live. And Roxy and I said, you know, it would be a great Batman, Robert Pattinson. And you wanted to fight us. Yeah, I remember. I did want to fight you. I wanted to walk up to you the way that Batman walked in that first.

And how do you feel now? I think that Robert Pattinson, because I knew before going into this, because you made me go watch Good Time and other stuff like that, that he had the chops to pull it off. I think he's probably top... He might be the best Batman, if I'm being honest. So this is why I do have Winston on the show, not just to admit that when he's wrong.

Because there are a lot of people, though, that will stand and say, like, even though they know, even though if he knew in his head, Batman. It's just like, no, I can, I'm not, I'm not doing it. No, of course, but it's also the fact the idea of, like, you want to be able to have that conversation because it's like, as fans, you're like, the idea that you now have this different version of Batman and inside the stuff that you always wanted to see, Winston,

like that they were able to do it. And also, it's a testament to what Matt Reeves is able to pull out of him, because Matt Reeves pulls great performances out of actors. He really does. Yeah. I think he might be the best Batman, probably one of my lower tier, Bruce Wayne. Yeah, give that time. But what Koi said, we didn't get a chance to fully meet him yet, so it's fine.

But he really just kind of mastered everything that's going on there, including, and again, I cannot stick enough. It really stuck with me that adrenaline shot. It was literally because that is one of the things that Batman deals with a lot, especially in the younger stories, or once you deal with like the Dark Night Returns and stuff like that, that rage is always just, just below. What is going to finally push him there to, like, lose it? So that was really interesting to me. So I would say for now, as far as just straight Batman,

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but he's taking his time. I, my only guess, do either of you shoot? No, I don't. Okay, so the only thing is the one thing

you're really taught, unless you're a sharpshooter, is to aim for mass. Sure. So you're thinking maybe if I put like five, six, seven, eight bullets from like an automatic weapon

in the same spot, you might put the armor down. The same thing with Kevlar. Once it takes like a couple bullets, you're not, even just the first, the integrity goes down. Yeah. So my only thought for people that are shooting, you're A in panic mode. I can take suspension of disbelief. Oh, for sure.

It's the same thing, the same conversation that we've had many times over like every single time. Why don't they? Unmask Spider-Man. Why don't they unmask Batman? When they even say it, I like, I love that they said it though, because he's laying there after he gets hurt and he's laying there with the cops. And I'm like, my first thought before they even said anything is, why didn't they unmask this guy? Yeah. And then they even say they go.

go, we should be on masking this guy. All the cop stuff really worked for me. I love the crime scenes because I love how. Crooked cops, the idea. How broken Gotham is. One cop that hates him so much. And by the time he starts goes back to the scene and he's like, I got to rip this carpet up. He's like.

Ramirez, that cop is so good. I guess, that would, no, like you said, Matt Reeves brings the best out of his actors. He went in from the perfect dude to play that cop that becomes a believer by the end of it. Yeah. That was so well. The slow burn of that cop and the slow burn of the kid. Yeah. I loved the supporting characters getting arcs.

Well, even the beginning when they first, when they're looking at the crime scene and then the higher up comes in to tell Gordon, get this dude out of here. And then we find out that that guy was crooked. Yeah. And we find out that that guy was tortured by the rhythm. Also, the little moments of Batman looking at clues, they'll take photos of it. Like when he sees the edge of the, of the, you know, the carpet thing. And then they notice to take a photo.

Like, that's such great. Oh, and I love that scene. It was heartbreaking when the, when, when, the mayor's kid is there and Bruce is looking at him. Basically, he's getting, and he's recording him, but he's also, but he's, but he's seeing himself inside of that kid. Yeah. He's like, we got to go, man.

Like that, it was, it was great. And then that's a really good. Like, he's the one that saves him. Like, Bruce Wayne saves the kid. And that's a beautiful, you know, very metaphorical saving himself as a kid. Like, it's a really beautiful scene. We were talking about that scene. You want to talk about that scene, the church scene.

Oh, dude. So beautiful. That, that to me might have been the highlight of the entire film. from me, the church scene from start to finish. So the falcon interaction, the penguin. The falcon interaction, the penguin interaction, the fact that you had the new mayor

already trying to get Bruce to be like, why aren't you doing more for the city you can do more? Then you end up in the bomb hostage situation where Batman gets to finally meet the riddler and doing a standard riddler thing. That's the one thing I felt like we always miss from Batman forever. It's not just the little riddles he leaves behind. It's sometimes he does get locked in a,

you're going to answer my question or whatever. Yeah. That is very Riddler. Oh, you better figure it out. Like very saw. That is something, you know. Total horror movie. So I, that to me was the highlight of the film.

Yeah. There's a lot to love. But that whole secret to that guy fearing for his life. Peter Scargeard dying to keep the secret because he knew he's dead anyway and rather going out that way. That was such a great. Like, Gothen is so corrupt. This guy's like, blow my head off.

Do you know that the Ridler reminded me as a, during not. Not during all the other stuff with the crooked people that were going on because there was a corruption thing that he was going after. And as you're looking at it, you're like, I can see why it's strange. He is. He's the anti-batman or what he's doing. But then when he was going after Thomas Wayne, right, as one of the guys and Bruce Wayne as well, I thought that was he was basically Twitter and Facebook. Yeah. He was throw rocks first.

I don't know all the facts. I don't know all the facts. All I know is that there's a couple things that I know and things that I've heard. So that's the, that's the bad guy. That's the bad guy. I enjoyed the whole online persona element. But what I'm saying is that Thomas Wayne to me was that like you don't know the pure history of all of it. So instead of just deeming the guy, you know, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Are you specifically talking about Bruce and his response to hearing about it? I'm talking about how I think the Ridler. How the Ridler took it. The Ridler to me represented the worst of social media. Sure. and of just without, without, you know, finding everything that was going on. Well, it's people that feel like they don't have a voice. And I think a lot of social media is people that develop a platform after being voiceless for so long that use it aggressively because they feel alone.

Yeah, and like that's where trolls are born is from the darkness. I get where you're going with that Christian for sure. I think the only reason why this feels a little different is that had time to simmer over years. And all that we really knew of this riddler of this Edward Nigma or John Doe or whatever is, is, is. I'm saying him with Thomas Wayne. You're saying specifically the Riddler with Thomas Wayne. Yeah, just the Thomas Wayne part. But that's what I'm saying.

I actually... Because he didn't do his research on it. And the reason why Tom, because we don't find out about Thomas Wayne, the real reason why he did what he did was because to protect his wife. It wasn't everybody else that he was going after were corrupt. They were taking for money. They were trying for power. They were abusing power.

But he didn't do all of his research. He found one thing that he found. And basically like someone said something. posted it and that was and then said that's it Thomas Wayne you're guilty guilty guilty by association guilty and it's like nobody wasn't I guess I guess I guess I agree he did do a bad thing but not a bad guy but I guess part of why I can see that a we already know he's not mentally stable let's yeah sure but but the reason why I would buy into that is remember this was his foundation that was set up I well what was the name of it again

it was the renewal the renewal it was the renewal fund yeah so it was supposed to be one of the things that, again, was supposed to take care of all those boys. So I can already see if this person has promised you all of this, and then you find out that they are actually associated with all these actual bad people. You have an agenda. You have an agenda to destroy them. So I bought that a little bit more. I get what you're saying about how it's a metaphor for the social media stuff.

That stuff seems more like flashing a pan. I hear one thing immediately and I go off, whereas this felt like there was enough breadcrumbs that it did take more, like a lot of investigative work to find out about that. I think it was a, I just think it was a clear agenda to say, okay, let me find anything I can about him. And then, because once he found out the one thing he wanted to, he stopped his research. He could have, he could have researched more and find that out if he wanted to, but he found out the negative and he found out what he wanted to find to destroy him because of exactly what you just said. He, he was, he felt wronged by this guy for a long time and he decided, you know what? Here's the bad thing I found.

And because if someone said, well, wait a minute, do some more. What's the reason behind it? I don't care. I also really like that renewal felt like a Thomas Wayne thing from the comics that would cause corruption. I like that, you know, in the Batman Nolan universe, we've got the train, we've got all those infrastructure things you did for the city. I like the idea that Thomas Wayne tried to leave a billion dollar trust to fix the city, because that is something he would do.

Like he's a, he's a, you know, generous billionaire in a way. I loved what they did with Thomas Swain. That was so genius to have renewal be corrupt. Like it's so, and it's also so real. Like we have funds that are stolen by government officials. We have funds that are stolen by elected officials. officials. I like that we're doing more real plausible things in our superhero movies because that's how they stay relevant. Yeah. All right. Listen, this is a fun conversation. We enjoy talking about it.

The Batman is in theaters. Hopefully, obviously, if you guys are watching this, you've seen it. We know the comments are going to come in fast and furious. We are going to be doing Mask of Fantasm rewatch on the Patreon this month with myself, Koi, and Winston. So make sure if you're not signed up to the SCN Patreon you do, the link is in the description. Speaking of Batman and Batman Trivia and Winston A. Marshall. Winston was on the desk with Mark Ellis, and there was a Batman match between Kevin Smets and Mike Kalinowski. It's one of the funniest matches we've ever done. The I-card is right there and the link in the description. Go and check that out. If you haven't checked out the movie Trivia Shmodeon, you should go and check it out. Oh, Christian.

And by the way, we did a Batman exhibition match with Kevin Smets and Mike Kalinowski, and it was so good. I was on the desk. You were. Y'all should check it out. You think you. I think you. Double plug. Double plug works for me. I see what you did there. But you should check it out, though, because Smodown now is, it's back. It's really different. We're back in studio. If you've never seen it before, if you've never checked it out and you think you're good at trivia, you should go and check that out for sure.

It's Imagine Monday Night Raw, but instead of wrestling, they're playing trivia. That's what you should go and check out. It's Friday night Titans. It's every Friday. We just had our first episode debut this past Friday, so please check that out. Where do you rank this? And we did the ranking of the seven. It's hard for me to say that because I, because I only, at the first episode.

As of today without rewatching it, it's tough because you're also talking about enjoyment of watching the movie. Because remember, I enjoyed watching. I think that Dark Night Rises is a better movie than Batman 89. I do. Okay. But I just had fun watching. And to rewatch, I had more fun watching the 89 because it was a nostalgia thing. Yeah, I like your double ranking.

That's why I double ranked it. I ranked it for what it did for me versus objective filmmaking. if I'm just looking at it as a film. So objective filmmaking, I would probably put this as number three or four. I'd probably put it, yeah, I'd probably put it three. I would say, number one is Dark Night.

Number two is Batman Begins. Number three is this. Then Dark Night Rises. Then Batman 89. Then forever, well, I mean, no, even though Batman Begins is a better made film than Batman forever. Yeah.

Yeah, film-wise, not enjoyment-wise. And then forever and then shitbox city. It's two for me, so I'm away a little above you guys. I just, Dark Night, this begins for me and then the rest. You've also seen it. I've also, you know, yeah. Free by the time and same. I need a couple more watches.

But right, just off first jump, for me, it said number three. But who knows? It could usurp. I'll be honest, it's not going to usurp the Dark Night. No matter what, even with some of these performances, I'll just be honest, I can't. see it maybe I'm wrong. Who knows?

Maybe a year from now I change my tune. But I just don't think. You also go away for the second movie, right? Because that's the other reason why Dark Night was so good because Batman begins was so good. And so when you get whatever the second movie is going to be of the Batman, it could be, it could jump past all those. Arguably you have to look at it like a trilogy. That's fair. You can't really compare this until it's got as much no one.

No, that's why I told when people were asking, is it better than Nolan's stuff? It's not fair to even compare it. It's one because there's two, there's a positive and there's a negative, right? The positive is if it's as good as we hope it's going to be with Matt Reeves, then it could get better and better and better. Or it could turn out to be a Matrix type thing or it could turn out to be a Star Wars sequel type thing where you're like, because I watched Force Awakens recently and I really enjoy the movie when I saw it. And now it's so disappointing because I know what comes afterwards.

I'm like, yeah, I don't really like enjoy watching as much. I don't think that's going to happen with Matt Reeves, but it's possible. So it's too hard to rank them right now to say it's better than Nolan's. trilogy or it's not or it's not better because I don't know it I haven't seen the entire story yet. I also if they keep diving into the mental health of Gotham I like the hierarchy of wealth. I like this world set up so much that I really plus we're going to get shows which we didn't give it with Nolan I'm excited to live in Gotham with Penguin and the GCPDs also add to it yeah it'll elevate everything and this is a rich enough world in one movie I want all of that

well look at the way peacemaker elevate I mean and I really love the suicide squad but it did elevate elevate it really does you I'm not I won't spoil it for anybody but there's parts that happen that there's a reason for certain things that happen in the suicide squad that they reference back to this and you're like, that makes a lot of sense. And it makes so much more sense. So when you, Peacemaker, who you already know from watching the series, when you go back and watch the suicide squad, it's elevated. So same goes to, Obi-Wan could be the same thing when it happens.

So I think these shows are a massive way to continue and help. I think this is the best universe launch movie you've had in a while. I feel like a new universe was born. I'm ready for it. Yeah, I'm not going to disagree with any of that. I think that I'm excited to watch it again. And I definitely want to see in a second movie. You said it's not going to be another four years?

The quote I heard was the team said within the next five years. And I just thought that was insane because usually like they're like two years because the climate were in. No chance. One brothers lets them do that. There's no way. But it was interesting to hear that from someone in it. But I would appreciate three to four with Gotham and Penguin coming out. But because you have penguin, I'd be okay with three to four.

Does Batman show up in Penguin, you think? I think you need to a little bit. I don't think you need to go full-blown. But if you even give me like a Luke Skywalker end of Mandeloy 2 scenario, that would work. Yeah. I think I think so. If he's in there for a few things and he pops in there and you can still get it because, I don't know, man. Three, I think four years is too much.

I think like two is too soon. I think three is a perfect balance. I'd like three because I feel like people that watched it as a freshman at their graduated high school. Like that age grant. Like that's a problem. When did Reeves wrote this? Yeah. When did he start writing?

this is my question because we were going back in four years ago was this four years ago so that's part because part of it was dealing with the whole but that movie was but yeah but that's the thing the movie was don't so think about this movie was supposed to come out in like what 20 20 20 21 okay so October so Halloween so that's how you have to look at it so if he wrote it four years ago yeah right so then it's because of 2021 not because of 22 right so it would have been two years to write it yes about two years to write it and just give him that amount of time because what I what I it worried about, like, for example, I know that Jordan Peel was like penning us, you know, but it was very clear, get out, he'd been writing for years.

I'm not asking for that. It's the debut album problem. It was the debut album, that hunger, that drive to get that specific product comes out. It blows you out of the water. The next one comes so quickly on the heels, it doesn't have that quite zip. So if you give me three years, so they get a solid two years to really lock this script down, and then you already have most of your key players, you just got to cast like new characters, I need to come in.

Yeah. Perfect for me. Yeah. All right. Well, listen. We want to see here what you guys to say. I'm sure there's a lot of comments, a lot of conversation. We are ready for it.

So make sure that you guys go ahead and comment. And if you have been listening to this show and you haven't shown a little class, please do. Subscribe, will you? Subscribe. Show some class. And hit the subscribe button, the notification button, the like button, all of that. Let's have a conversation here.

I will not lie to anybody with the movie trip. be a Shmowdown season nine. I've been trying to get to as many comments. And I'm, I, I need to take a, a flight to Australia so I can go and, and do all the comments to respond to everybody. Because it's a good problem to have. But there's, but it's, uh, it's a lot. It's a lot of comments.

I haven't been able to catch up. So people are going, oh, you stop commenting back? I haven't. I just have been, uh, I've been overwhelmed. But I'm going to keep trying and I keep doing it. But thank you to Winston Marshall and to Koi. We appreciate you. And we'll see you guys very soon.

We'll be back, hopefully next Friday doing another show here, and we're trying to figure out our next rewatch. All right. Peace out, everybody. Progressive presents, adjusting to the suburbs. You just spot a home in the suburbs, but no one told you about all the birds, specifically this one,

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