The Kristian Harloff Show - REWATCH! Batman Forever (1995)

Episode Date: January 28, 2022

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How are you? Oh, it's so nice to see you. And let's call it what it is. Why do people say that? It's nice to see you like now. I can't see you. I can't even see my co-host. So who am I bullshit?

Yeah, and I started with a curse. Eat it, Winston. It was funny, though, as I was, welcome to the show, by the way. I was thinking about it before we got into it. I really like talking to these guys. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's just on air. because I don't call them.

They don't text me. I'm lying to you again. I don't know what I'm doing this. Is it maybe because I had an edible? It's maybe. It's possible. But we're talking about this movie, which everybody was probably on edibles

when they made it. And that's Batman Forever. She like that transition? Slick. All right, listen, this is going to be a fun one. This is the rewatch of Batman Forever. We're doing a whole Batman rewatch of a series of the, because we're leading into the Batman.

leading into the Batman with Patinson. We decided we can only, Ms. Coy was the only one who did math and realized that we could do seven episodes total. So we did the Burton one, the two Burton, we're going to do the two Schumacher, and then we're going to do Nolan, and then we'll get into the Batman.

We'll do spoiler reviews and non-spoiler reviews and all that stuff. So definitely be doing that. If you haven't subscribed to this channel, I just need you to show an ounce of class, just a little bit of class and hit that subscribe button. That's how we're asking for an ounce, and hit the notification. button. Now I'll give that extra ounce. Patreon. We're pushing. We're moving.

S.C.N. Live is now three episodes a month. It says two, but you guys got it to over 250 patrons. So now it's SCEN live is three episodes a month. And if we get to 500 patrons, they'll do four a month. We got the rewatches. We're going to do one rewatch at the end or middle of the month. We got a whole bunch. Right now we're going to do a poll for the patrons to guess which one that is. And it depends on the movie. Maybe Coy and Winston will be with me. Maybe there'll be some, new peeps for those episodes. And then we got bonus episodes. We're going to do,

everyone's always asking us to do live. Why don't you do a live episode? Why don't you do live anymore? You don't do live. Well, we're going to do one bonus live episode, whether it's a big thing or, or Sith Council, just a Q&A. It'll be fun.

Okay, let's get into the rewatch. It is myself. It is Winston A. Marshall, and it is Coy, and Andrew, and we're doing Batman forever. Let's hit it. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the big thing. Okay.

I'm ready to talk about this movie. It is in 1995 when it came out, Batman Forever, Val Kilmer, Nicole Kidman, Tommy Lee Jones, Jim Carrey. And I got a cat. Get out of here, cat. Cats for him. I don't know. I wouldn't yell at my cat.

I don't have a cat. So who's a cat is in my backyard? Anyway, it is Winston. It is coy. What's up, guys? That was such a whirlwind opening. So much happened. There was a lot going on.

Like, for real, I'm glad, I'm glad you're good, man. Who says? Who says? He said, Mr. Rogers' tone, and then he realized he does talk to us and references talking to us. Then he realized it was like, we text. So he's like, it just, it was a whirlwind. It was a lot.

It turned, it went from Mr. Rogers to Deadpool. Very quickly. Very quickly. Very, very quickly. Very, very quickly. First, the squirrels and the cats and dogs. I mean, this is like, I got a zoo. Hey perfect you did you just make that

leave that cat alone you're making that cat do that he's in your house the call is coming from inside your house I should send the dude over because the dude the dude is now growing his balls and he's starting to hump things so oh spidey let's stay over in this side of things you can't watch out

anyway so Batman forever guys so Winston I think last time when we spoke I said you know what I think's going to wind up liking Batman Returns more so over Batman forever. And I got to tell you, I got to tell you I was wrong because this movie is way more enjoyable to watch. Thank you. However, what I will acknowledge is this. And I've said this before about Star Wars movies and other things.

Tim Burton, Tim Burton's Batman Returns is a better made film as a filmmaking. I mean, there's not even comparison as opposed to this kind of enjoyable. versus quality is real at these movies. This is fast food. This is fast food. This is cotton candy. It is. Remember, they did a partnership with McDonald's. We talked about it before. I mean, for those that, I don't know if you guys knew

or paid attention at the beginning, I mean, Burton produced this. And they hold on that longer than directed by. Yes, they do. And they have a character at the end of the movie who's Dr. Burton. Dr. Burton, exactly. And he looks like Tim Burton. So, I mean, it's, yeah, he was involved-ish.

But, but. It's the most fast food. I think a movie has actually come out because the opening line Batman has is I'll get drive-through. Like the first thing Batman says in a movie, that's insane. Like how did, what contract was Alfred's first line is sandwich and his is drive-thru? That's crazy. It made, it made.

Well, it was in the McDonald's Marshall. It was so in your face. It made Michael Bay movies look like independent. That's how Armageddon, Grat and Crazy. They saw this. Do y'all not remember? the McDonald's commercial because they actually they did a commercial for McDonald's

in partnership with Batman Forever. I remember distinctly as a kid where it'd be like, do like a sandwich, no, I'll get drive-thew. Yeah, and like, come to McDonald's and get the Batman Forever Cups. Like, I distinctly remember that as a kid. It's so in your face, like everything about it. And I mean, the marketing and the

I, the SEAL song, Kiss from a Rose, is it even in the movie? It's in the second part of the credits. It's not even in the top of the credits. I didn't even hear it. I was like, I was like, I remember that it was so, you couldn't go anywhere in in summertime you can i remember i remember dating a girl at that point in time and that song came on and it that now because that song played so much it was blasting i just remember and i can't get that memory out of my head because that song was so it was just so part

of culture yeah and yeah and the second i was oh that's and i remember saying bringing the way bring up that story of oh it's the batman song everyone called it the batman song and it's not even in the movie Yeah. I mean, but that just goes to show Remember the 90s. It was all about them soundtrack. So you're talking about really- Actually buying the disc. Bro, because you also had U-2's Kiss Me, Kill Me, What? That's right. It's right. The first song in the credits. I listened to the whole credits because I was. Yeah, I couldn't find it cool. You know, I, because I remember the U-2 song very much so.

And I'm like, oh, I remember that. I said, is Seale's song not even in this, even in the credits? And I just, I stopped that's boring because I, what I did is, I did the stupid thing. I was like, you know what? I got a little time left. I'm going to watch the first 10 minutes of Batman and Robin. You can't do that to yourself. You just, until you have to, you can't, you know, you should have bolster. You got a fortified. You really do. But this movie, the tone of it. Now I told, remember Winston, I said last week, I was like, I don't know what I'm in for because the, as you just mentioned, the first, that was, I'll get drive through. Luckily enough, it, it doesn't stay that way, the entire movie.

The colors and everything is, this is, the difference in Burton in this movie, Burton went through stages in that second movie of, is it like a really dark film? Is it a dark comedy? Is it like there were some really kind of disturbing images and everything too? And then is it a cartoon, right? This is pure cartoon. There is nothing else that is pure cartoon.

Even the darkest moments, pure cartoon. So yeah, I don't know how you felt about it, Winston. I mean, this has a special place in my heart. I put up my list of my Batman films on Twitter. I think I tagged you both in it because I think Coy did it too. And I forgot. Even until we watch the movies, you know, professional. But that was my, that was my pre-watch.

Yeah, I might adjust mine too, in fairness. Yeah, you never know. But that's the thing. This one, this one right here, this is the high school love, man. This is the you can't, no matter what you do, I can objectively say that there are other better Batman movies and ones that I have It has a place to your heart. It has a special place, bro.

That's what's a quote. I was saying quotes like. But that's the thing, dude. So that would, and I see it in the comments a lot for this channel in general, for this channel in general is that people like to come here now because they don't feel like they're if they like a movie, someone's going to tell them why they're wrong for liking it. Like I didn't see to single, to every person last week that liked Batman.

Returns. Like I said in the beginning of it, I get it. I hate it, but I get why you love it. I get why you have that attachment to it for different moments. Same thing with this. Like I won't, I won't lie to you there is like I remember seeing this in the theater and feeling the same way, Winston, like this. It was just because I didn't like Batman Returns even back then that I was, I just was hoping for some kind of fun Batman movie. And that's what this is. And it is a very cartoony. It's not good. I mean, it's not. It's fun. It's a fun movie, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of silly. It's a good. There's good. Don't get, don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. I agree with you because Jim Carrey goes full Ace Ventura. It's a Jim Carrey movie.

I would argue against somebody who says that the first Batman is a Jack Nicholson movie. It leans heavily on him. There's no doubt. But this is a Jim Carrey movie. It's weird how the first four are really villain movies, even with Batman getting eight times the screen time in this one, it is very much a Joker movie. a penguin movie and a riddler movie as you go through this journey. And Batman, like, I remember thinking the first eight minutes of this movie that this is as much Batman as the first 52 minutes that you pointed out of Batman or Turds.

Because the whole opening is just Batman action. And there's a really funny moment where a Val Kilmer, who's like such an incredible actor, like heat and tombstone and even Top Gun, like, he brings Gravitas. But there's a moment where he has to like run around a corner and you can see his arm, like, throw the cape out behind him. And I was like, what must that have been like for a guy coming off these sets to be like, I'm going to be the Batman. And if you watch the documentary,

he talks about how it's great to want to be Batman, but not great to play Batman. And I saw the moment he was playing Batman, that Cape Throw, it just broke my heart for him. Did you watch it, Winston? I watched probably the first quarter or first half of it, so I didn't get to the Batman part. You watched the Batman part.

You should have fast forwarded it to that part. Well, I didn't know what I was looking for. I thought I had to watch the whole documentary. You didn't specify. Is it not a great documentary? The whole talk is great. So far, no, so far it's good. It's just one of those things that, like, I unfortunately was watching while I was trying

to work. And so when I stopped working, I was like, I'm going to have to come back to this. And I just didn't have time to come back. Well, so, but as Corey was saying, like, he, he had this idea. He was so excited to play Batman, especially you have to also think about the time, right? Like, Michael Keaton was Batman. Like, he had taken that thing where everyone in 88 or late 88 when he was cast or whatever it was. He said, people who were Michael Keaton, what? He's not going to be Batman.

And then by the second one, you're like, oh, he's got to come back. It's Batman. It's Batman. And we didn't have the same type of thing where who's going to be the big superhero. That was the story. That was the main story. And it was big piece of news when Jim Morrison as, as Batman. So it was a massive thing for him. It was a massive story. But he was, he was miserably hated the suit. Couldn't stand the suit. Could barely move in the suit. And as Corey said, you could, you could, you could tell when he's when he's running around doing it. But what I noticed watching it back this time, what I did like about both 89 and Batman returns was the love story between Bruce and, whether it was Selena and Bruce and, um, and Vicky Vale, they dropped the ball in this one. Like in

the beginning, it starts off with Chase, Chase Meridian, right? And so it's, it starts with that and it leading up to it. And then once Robin comes in, she disappears for like 45 minutes. And just kind of pops back in and and Nicole Kimman was still a star not as big of a star she is now and I feel like she's you could throw a you could throw a penny at any DVD on your shelf for the last five years and Nicole Kimman's probably in it. She's in everything and if she's not in it she's talking about the movie beforehand because AMC is where god damn bro I'm so pissed now now that would I go ever I go to AMC to see shit because I got A list people fucking applaud when she comes on screen Winston pain feels a little bit better in a place like this oh my god every single time I've gone to a movie for the last month

and a half. Christian hasn't been back. He doesn't get this reference. People fucking applaud. Second one in 36 seconds. But you know what I realized? I don't know why I care that you curse on this one. Because I think for A for Batman for big thing,

I don't get to fuck do it. What I think it was for Spider-Man is more wholesome. I think Spider-Man's, you know, for Batman. He can't hold a beer in the comic books. Here it's Batman. No, no. I'll tell you. But let's just try to limit it.

There it is. Those are my two. Yeah. But either way, that to me was dropped. And because they were setting it up, hey, cut that out. They had the timing on that. Did you do that on purpose? Yeah.

Totally. It's like the force. But either way. And the Robin stuff and it is. It's a cartoon. It's like a cartoon. Crystal Donald's fine. There's like two scenes that.

aren't cartoons and they feel really out of place. Which one? The one scene where he's talking about therapy and talking about his family and he's revealing his self to her. Yeah, that's a moment. It's just another... But it doesn't fit the rest of the movie. That's the one scene where it's like, oh, Belkilmer's here. Like they let Val Kilmer be an actor for a second. Right. I would guess, to be honest with you, it felt like Schumacher really wanted to lean into the 66 stuff. Yeah. And I think Burton being a producer on it was like, we need to have

some gravitas here. So I think that that may have been Burton and Kilmer being like bro, you need to give us a moment with Bruce. Apparently, there's a whole Schumacher cut. There's a three hour cut with more of the bat, more of the backstory, more of the parents. I think you're given too much credit on how involves Burton was. You think it was just a name only?

I don't think Burton wanted anything to do a Batman after they took him off of it. You know, when you do like a, you do the pilot, like the pilot of the TV show, how you get paid forever? You still get the creative by. I understand. He's like, yeah, he's like, listen. I'll tell you what, fine. Give me my producer money.

put my name in the credits is so you're going to take me off because he's no dummy he knew it would still make money so he made he made he made he made he made he made he made he made he made he made cash and forever made more than batman returns anyway so he he's laughing all the way to the bank so that's not you know but i don't think he was involved because i there's no there's no minus that thing but his name and at the end with uh with the character that looks like him there's nothing that felt like a tim burton movie this felt like this didn't have didn't really have a style. It's just like, oh, we need colors. And we need, oh, yeah, hey, can you put a spotlight on both Batman and Robin's ass at one

point? Well, there's a lot of, like, Dutch angles and the color palette is really Schumacher, but it's not until the fourth one where I feel like, kind of like Batman and Batman's turns. I do feel like, oh, it did well. Now we'll let it be yours. The fourth one has a lot more of the Schumacher. Like the Lost Boys and Fan of the Opera have a lot of that weird operatic, grandiose tilt into Dutch angle. And there's a lot of tilts into Dutch angles in the fourth one. So I feel like this was the studio. with a little dash of Schumacher and the next one's a lot more Schumacher. Oh, no, no. No, no, the fourth, the fourth one, dude, he was overpowered in the fourth one.

Oh, is the fourth one that is less Schumacher? That's not that was way more of his visual aesthetic. What they, yes, but what they told him was they wanted more cartooning. He wanted it over the top. Like the credit card shit and like the, yeah. He just went, I think that what he said in an interview was something along like they just said, sell toys, sell toys. And it was pretty much just a big commercial with a lot of, you know, over the top stuff.

And he's like, all right, fine. Then I'll just, he, he didn't, he didn't have a passion or, like, a major love to where he was doing fighting. Because you look at his other movies. He's a genius, man. He's so slept on. Great movies. Like, great movies. And he can get, he can get serious.

He can get, you know, he can get dark. He was asked to do a job. And he did the job both times. First time they said, we'll do it this way and say, okay, I'll just, did they want a little more fun than what Tim does. And he did the job. It's like, because the reason why you know he's a good, he's really a good. great director, he was still working after Batman and Robin.

Most people wouldn't be able to come back from that. And he got to go back to his work. I feel like this was one of those like when an actor does like two for you, one for me. This was the studio stuff so we can make phone booths, so he can make Tiger Land so he can make. Yeah, phone's is incredible. And he kept working up until he was amazing.

We only recently lost him and he was still working. Like he's one of those directors. I hate that he's associated with these two because these are perfectly fun, but they're not him. That's right. That's exactly right. When you look at, his name's attached to it, but like it, and it shouldn't, and I don't think it did towards the end of getting like an audible groan of what do you need? My wife needs the keys, everybody. Hey, come here for a second.

Come here, come here. Give me for a second. I want to say, you say hi. Oh. That little mafioso face. It is. Whoa. She's like, you go use me for views?

Look, look at my camera like that. that camera right there. Bro, she looks just like you, man. Yeah, no, that's crazy. I've seen you make those faces. Oh, she does look like me as poor kid. What I was saying is like the visual aesthetic style feels authentic to the director, but it's more like the cinematographer who used or whatever got his flavor,

but nothing else in the movie feels like a Schumacher film. So I do feel like the fourth one they let him do more of his Dutch angle pivot aesthetic, but at no point except for that one scene with that. Kilmer does it feel like a movie that he would have done otherwise? No, I think he did. Look, as a director, I think he did the job that he was asked to do. And the script wasn't, it was silly, you know, and, but if you look at it as just a pure Batman cartoon, like a cotton candy, just kind of pure carbs, I enjoyed watching it.

I enjoyed watching it. And as much as I say that it is a Jim Carrey movie, that's not a slight, Jim Carrey was like the biggest star in the world. that point. 95 is when he was starting to pop. And you hear his story. I don't know if you ever heard his story on Howard Stern when he talked about Tommy Lee Jones. Tom Lee Jones hated Jim Kerry, which is not a surprise because he probably hated him. He had another quote. It was something like I don't understand your nonsense or something like that. It's one of them, it's the most Tommy Lee Jones quote of all time. He comes over to Jim Carrey. He says,

I will not sanction your buffoonery. That's what it was. That's exactly what. I will not sanction your buffoonery. I will know. I remember hearing that before I knew either of those words. and as I got older, I was like, that's the best jab of all time. Like, I will not sanction your buffoonery. I got it. You know what? I'm going to see if I can play the clip of Jim Carrey. I'm going to see if I can play.

You can picture Tommy Lee Jones using those words day to day, but then directed at Jim Carrey, that's high art. That's better than the movie. Yeah, I'm going to see if I can find it because I'd like to play. Yeah, he said the- And Tommy Lee Jones is having fun too. I mean, the moment in the opening action scene, there's that uncorking of the ear, like where to go, when the guy takes out his hearing aid.

I was like, oh, this is an Adam West movie. Hey, that's my hearing aid. Oh, that guy was at an 11. Good gun. My wife walked in. He really was. My wife walked into that scene. It was the beginning we were watching it because she walked out as soon as it was over.

She said, she goes, who says, oh, no, in the middle of like, you know, something like that. She's just say, oh, shit, right? At that point, he goes, oh, no, and he does it again. It's like the no more dead cops guy from the dark night. got a whole scene. He tells, he's telling, he tells, he's telling Norm McDonald on this club.

I don't know if it's, hold on. It seems what Tommy Lee Jones said to me too. He said, he couldn't sanction my buffoon. He couldn't. He couldn't. He couldn't sanction my buffooner.

What movie is that? That's when we did Batman. Wait, you're the star, though. I was the star. That was the problem. Yeah. Do you think, did you ever have this problem? Phenomenal actor?

With guys who were like, I'm a better actor than this fucking. movie star did you ever get that no because there was no me oh but i mean uh the guy that to tommy lee jones was talking to oh the guy that tommy le Jones was talking to he was at a restaurant and he and and you know the mentor d said oh tally i hear you working with tommy jones he's over in the corner having uh having dinner uh and i went over and i said hey tommy how you doing like that and the blood just drained from his face 24.

Who'd already done the movie? He was just fucking, no, no. It was before the biggest scene we have to gather in the movie, and the blood just drained from his face. And he got, he started shaking. And he got up when he went, like this, he must have been in mid-kill-me fantasy or something like that. He was like, ah, ha, ha, ha, like this.

And he went, like, to hug me. And he said, I hate you. I hate you. Like that. And I said, gee, man, what's the problem? And I pulled up a chair, which probably wasn't smart. And he said, I cannot sanction your between. My theory on that would be.

It's so good, man. That's from Norm McDonald's show. But, yeah, that, yeah, he hated him. I hate him. He hated him. It doesn't surprise me. Well, it's ridiculous. I feel like,

I have to use it on people, but it doesn't surprise me. I actually went to the same private school, like, from elementary to middle school as Tommy Lee Jones. And, like, there were the people there. Huh? Same year. Same year as well. Yeah, you look great.

Moistrarized. Black don't crack. Hey, man, a vino. With the, what the, what the moisturizer next to you? Need to send some of that to me and Roka. Yeah, I give you some. But, but it was one of those schools where you either because it was such an uptight, like, kind of place, you either were.

a complete ass or you took it super seriously. So I guarantee you that is not the first time he said that. He said that to some of his classmates. No way. Yeah, he probably says it to, he's notorious on the top of most reporters list of the worst interview. He hates media.

He makes everybody feel miserable and he certainly did the same thing to Jim Carrey. However, I still think that Tommy Lee Jones is the big, out of everybody in this movie, even more so than Jim Carrey, he's the most cartooning. I feel like this was the thing he did to like vent 10 years of frustration.

Like he got so much therapy out of this. He was he didn't, he didn't, he was, he was having a lot of fun with it. And he was so over the top. And he, and all he did in the whole movie was this, and run away. Yeah. But, oh, what I will say, as much as he wasn't sanctuary the buffoonery, you couldn't tell on screen.

He was playing along with Jim Carrey, like they were best buddies. Like he was, and he was able to use that frustration, as Two-Face. So as much as you want to say about how grouchy of an old man, Tommy Lee Jones is, he's a master. He is, he is, there's a reason why he's gotten all of the nods that he has over the year. Because he's never actually won, right? But he's gotten, he's gotten a number of nods. Didn't he win for the fugitive?

I think it was a nod. I think he recently won like in the early 2000s, but the fugitive I thought was a nod. But I'm not sure. I don't play in the Schmoder. So you said, I have. No, I do have a slowdown question for, oh. He won best supporting actor for, yeah, for the Fugia. Oh, eat it, Coy.

Completely wrong, just wrong. It's okay. There you go. Well, I do have, I will hear, I do have an IG question for y'all since we hear. What MCU actor actually had a cameo role in this film? In this film? Mm-hmm. Shoot.

well it's not Nicole Kimman she's she's an aquaman yeah I don't I don't remember as far as it's probably someone's super young who who was it John Favro Favro where's Favro in this month Oh he walks out behind Favro is one of he's one of Wayne's assistants he's one of Wayne's this part of Wayne's entourage

and so I was I was looking into it afterward because I saw it in the credits I was like what the fuck he's wicked young there's my third one so he's super young it looks like he had some lines and they just cut them so I wouldn't be surprised yeah if he's in their credits he definitely would have had there's that three-hour shoemaker cut right so I would not be surprised if he's over in there but Favro is behind Val Kilmer and he's walking in while he's assessing what to do at Nicaa yeah yeah yeah and he's it looks I mean it looks like Friends era because it's right before he shot Friends like

exactly John Fabro exactly it was more when he was more focused on acting than he was directing and when like speaking speaking of that scene. There's a shot, and I'm actually looking at it right now at the moment, but where it zooms into Wayne Enterprises, it is the worst CGI I have ever seen in a movie. It is, it looks, there's, they're not even trying to make it. I'm going to see if I can, you know, whether I'm going to play, I got to, I got to show this clip. It's so, it's so bad. I noticed it like right away. Um, tell me if you guys can, you guys can see it. Yeah. I don't know. We take this up. know. Look how bad this is for everybody watching. It is so bad. They didn't even try it. Are you sure this isn't pre-development? This was the movie? I don't remember this. This is the movie. It is, it is, it is rottenly bad. Um, hold on. There we go. For people watching, look how bad this is. I mean, it's incredible. How did I miss this? I must have my head down. This is Batman the animated series. It look, I mean, it's it, it, it does this part of the movie. It. It's, it's, it's, it's part of the movie. It. It. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's part of the movie. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It's, it. It's, it. It's, it. It's, it. It's, it. It's, it. It's, it.

It is sad. In the Mnimate series is better. Yeah. It's atrocious. Oh my God. It's atrocious. Really, really bad. But anyway, so, but that's funny that Fabro was in that.

I didn't realize that. I feel like that's going to be, I mean, a bunch of people will have watched this now, or maybe they don't. But I feel like that's a good five-pointer for this coming here, man, because, I mean, he's in the credit. So it's not like, you know. Is he actually in the credits? Yeah, he's in the credit.

That's why I noticed because I was like, that guy looks familiar, but I don't know why. And then in the credits, I saw John Fabro assistant. And I was like, what the hell? I'm surprised I never made a, a joke about that. Like, you know, because he's, because he's worked for both Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark. Yeah, he's worked for the two parallel characters in the universes. I like that. Yeah, it's funny.

Before he was Happy Hogan. He was crappy Rogan. Assisted. Oh, I want to workshop that, friend. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a rough draft. Dude, he must have, he must have had lines that were cut. Right?

That's what I was saying. The only thing that makes sense is because you're not going to credit extras like that. They'll be put later down as extras. He definitely had lines that must have gotten snipped. And he also was a decent-sized actor at that point. He'd already done swingers. Yeah, he'd already, like. You can see him like.

Yes, he's right there. He's in a far run. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Fabra was around at that point. So he wouldn't have been an extra. No, no. He had done Rudy.

He had done a bunch. He'd done a bunch of stuff. So that's, that's interesting. Good call there. I didn't know. But that whole scene and everything with Ed Bagley, it's so stupid. The whole mind thing of what he's doing. Suck it on your IQ.

Ripping up your cortex. He's got great Jim Carrey. There's stupid movements and dances that he does through it. And like, what is he? There's one moment. Jim Carrey can get me, man. Like there's a certain moments that he just can get me. Like in the Truman Show is one of my favorite movies.

I love that movie. And he does something similar in Truman Show. He's walked, do you guys know the movie well enough? Yeah. So he's, when he first starts to realize what's going on, he walks out and there's a guy just painting or changing an awning or something. And Jim Carrey just slaps him in the ass with his briefcase and runs. And it is wholly improv.

There's no way he didn't have improv that, right? Because it, but the extra actually plays off it very well. But he does stuff like that in this movie, whether he's these big moments that he has or these fifted. faces that he has. And at the time in 95, I get why you would leave with Jim Carrey. I mean, I get it. It doesn't have to be a Batman movie. You can make it a Jim Carrey movie. So what a crazy cast, especially in 95. You got Val Kilmer in his heat Top Gun. Like, you know, Top Gun was a few years ago, but he's still in his prime. He's about to do like some of the biggest movies. I mean,

that's why he took over Michael Keaton. You've got Tommy Lee Jones after the doors. He just on the doors in 91. So like this is everyone at their most. And this is what movie stars actually. sold tickets. This is when, like, you'd actually get $20 million when you'd actually open a Friday. Like, the 90s was that last bastion of movie stardom. So if you look at this cast, it's pure, I mean, Drew Barrymore, that's right. That's right. Debbie Mayer, Drew Barrymore, Tommy Lee Jones, Nicole Kim and John Fabro, Valcombe. Nicole, like, Ed Bagley, honestly, even Ed Bagley, I know it's a small. Bigley was around, been around forever. Sorry, everyone's been, he's been around forever. Like, and so in, and that whole scene, I like the idea. I like the

idea. I mean, that's what I'm saying. Like, the difference between me watching both the second and the third is that there is, it's consistent in tone. From the second it starts to the end of it, it never shifts in tone for the minus those two scenes you're talking. Yeah, there's two scenes of therapy that feel like what? Right, but that's just the scene itself. It doesn't, the tone of the movie doesn't really shift. Alfred, I think, is actually great again in in this one. But it's the same repeated beats is the difference. What I will give Batman Returns and, Amman 89, is that they both are moving the needle with the story in a different direction, right? This, this is more with Batman, we're not learning anything new. He's still, he's messed up and now he, in the thing, I guess the

difference is that he sees himself and Robin, so he works with Robin. So that stuff didn't, is nothing, nothing new. And focusing on the riddler, that's what, that's the, I guess, the negative of just focusing on the movie story, you come up with this cockamamie cartoon thing of why the riddler and two-face are working together. And, right. brainwaves and all that. It's who said? Yes, it's the 66 Batman. Well, no, for sure.

It's 66 Batman. I mean, I think there's a couple of reasons I think why this film sticks with me. I mean, one, for whatever reason, I guess my favorite Batman villain has tended to be the Riddler. And so I think as a kid, because Carrie is playing it up Carrie style. It really resonates for a child. But like the reason why the Riddler has always been so interesting, he's the one that is constantly really pushing Bruce mentally. to his limits, like trying to figure stuff out.

So that was always interesting. And then the other half of this is that for me, my favorite superhero for the longest time wasn't actually Batman. It was Robin because it's like, as a child, they're like, oh, a kid's doing this. And then he becomes his own man and does this. So I was more invested in Dick Grayson the entire time. And that's why this movie really sticks with me super hard. Because this is one of what three iterations we get of Robin.

I don't really count the Dark Night Rise is one. That's stupid. Yeah, it's stupid. We get this next film, and then that's pretty much it as far as live action, unless there's something I'm missing if you want to count Titans, but I'm not even really talking about that, you know, so. Do you do Kung Fu Laundry now, though? That's the question. Oh, all the time, bro. Every time I'm pretty much turned to the driver. I remember being stupid back then, and it was even worse now.

It is. I just like, I love the motorcycle scene as much as I hate the laundry scene. Because the motorcycle scene is a great Batman scene. The laundry scene is like 1995, being cool. Look at my earring. I'm Chris O'Donnell. I want to know how that was pitched, right? I want to know, like, oh, it's going to be amazing.

Where there's storyboards? It's going to look so cool. He's like, I don't know, dude. I'm kicking a sweater. It makes film sense for this reason and this reason only. You have to explain quickly how Dick Grayson can immediately go into helping Batman fight crime and not be like, I'm going to actually train you before you're allowed to go outside. That's what I'm saying.

It's the same, it's the same thing that I had, the issue I had with, with Cape Bishop, right? In Hawkeyes, just like, okay, you can fight, but it's a different, it's a different animal once you're in the game, right? And, but I think the difference with those two series, if I'm going to say, especially in 1995, by the time you get to the,

things happening in this movie animated, they're not trying to play on any realism whatsoever. It's like, whatever at this point. You know, it's, there's a lot going on that is just so ridiculous. But I think, like I said, if you watch this movie, just like a pure animated film, it's pretty hard not to enjoy it. And I feel like the goon use is better in this one than the other two. Like there's always goons with the villains.

And I like that Robin fought the goons out of costume. I like that Batman's able to handle them like. Because if Batman can fight supervillains, he shouldn't be able to have struggle with goons. So I liked it in this one. They had Robin fight him. I also liked it. Like I said last week, I love that it's like a Lincoln Park music video. It looks like the first LP video.

Like that crazy blacklight neon. Like it's really 90s. in a way that I really dig. Well, even when they show up, you know, when he first, he steals the Batman and all this game. It's like, it's, it's so over the top, but yet it's still fun to watch. I don't know. And I think, and especially where, I think it's the same kind of argument for, even for all

of us, all three of us, we bring in that nostalgia to this movie. Someone watching it for the first time, you know, who maybe grew up on the Nolan movies or on or really start to get into the Affleck Batman and then you hit this one for the first time. I don't know. I don't know how you respond to it. I don't know. Maybe there are some people that go, I love it.

I got because there were a lot of people, Koi, that commented back. They wanted to see that kind of campy cheesy Batman. I was about to speak to that is like they've had more than we've had though. Like as someone who likes Dark Batman, we've had the Nolan's. We've now had an Affleck with Batman.

Kind of Justice League. So that'd be five. They got four of these campy and Adam West. six including the new one coming out. Well, yeah, when we get, like, that's the tiebreaker. I'm just saying as far as, like, which Batman on screen, you've got way more campy up until recently. We only recently got this Dark Batman.

So everyone complaining they want Campy Batman, go watch Adam West. You've got a whole series and a movie. Go watch these four movies. You've got way more camp. I want Dark Batman. Because to me, that's the character. And these movies aren't negated by Pattinson existing.

That's the thing I don't understand about people being upset about reboots and sequels. Your movie doesn't go away. You want Campi? Insert DVD. Open HBO Max. Go crazy. I don't know if you guys know this, but I can see the future. I don't know if you knew that.

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Okay, that makes sense. That's cool. It doesn't surprise me. It all makes sense. It all ties into all the commercial. They probably still. This was a thousand percent Warner Brothers being like, we're going to milk this for every penny because it did top the charts.

You know what I'm saying? Like, so you had that. That's why, like you said, it was everywhere. It was all over the radio. It was all over music videos. It was all that kind of stuff. This movie the year. It was, it was massive.

It was a massive film. And it was because it was that change in tone. And it was that, and remember, where you're at in 1995, you're only, whatever it is, 30 years removed from, what was the last Adam West Batman? 66. Was that the last? But on the series, I thought it was going to start it. Let's see. Let's see.

I know that number stands. That might be one of started. I thought that's on either it started or when the movie came out. But either way, let's say. Let's hypothetically say the 70s, right? Let's say, let's say 1970. It's split hair. Still 25 years.

It's 68. Yeah, it went to 68. Between 25 and 27 years. That's not, it's far enough removed for people remembering it and saying, oh, I remember that kind of tone in the studio going, you know, people are over the dark kind of fish eating mayor kind of guy. How about this? What if we bring Joel Schumacher in?

And then we make it brighter and fun and we make it just like the campy thing. it because those executives that were in that room at that time probably grew up on the damn thing and probably what's crazy we're further away from batman forever than batman forever was from my point but that's my point and it's been 27 years since batman right forever right and i think the executives who at that point were and and look look at maybe some of the executives who made venom were like why don't we shift it up do more that kind of 90s batman forever kind of fun stuff where it's because Benham isn't as goofy as Batman forever, but it's got that 90s feel.

And like when we grew up as kids, man, the 90s movies, boom, boom, boom. And it's like, that's probably the conversation that happened in that room with, we lost money because losing money back then is even worse than it is now. I mean, losing money always sucks, obviously when you're, especially for the execs.

But like at that point, the movie business was the only thing. There were no streamings. There was there was, that was the game. That was the game was, was movies. And so if you miss one

movie from Batman Returns from 89, game change, game change, got to change it, got to change it. And the plan actually worked monetarily for forever. There's no doubt about it. No, it a thousand percent did. Again, you know, Batman Returns like you said, did

fine. This did much better. The fact, and I bank off of my own feelings about Robin, I guarantee you did the same thing for kids. When you said talk about selling toys. You didn't need to introduce both the bat plane and the bat boat. They literally did nothing.

They blew up. That's what they did. But I had both those toys. They introduced them so you could get all the bad vehicles. And they were awesome. I had them both. You had to get so far on Batman. What did his soda actually do?

His soda didn't do shit, but they did it because it did it because it did. It doesn't look like the animated series. Dude, if you're looking at it, if you're looking at it as far as like, if you're doing a business study on trying to make a profit from your last to your to your next, it's genius. It's genius inside of how it's making money. Not as far as quality goes and all that kind of stuff, but it's like, hey, we want to sell toys. We want to get sponsors, sponsor, sponsors.

And what do we need? Spend the money, spend the 15 mil or 20 million on Jim Carrey. We'll make hand over fist anyway and all the marketing and everything that we do anyway. Plus the fact that he's in the movie, more people are going to know about the commercials. Yeah, put a bat plane in there. Put a bat boat. you know what our have batman talk about fast food in the beginning with who cares let's go over the top here boys we need to make our money back and that's exactly what they did that's that's what's scary about Batman and Robin because then you ramp it up because now you're introducing bad girls so now you got multiple different suits there we're going to get to all that

multiple different vehicles that we've never seen before but they just made them up by the time you got to that was the problem though you can get away with that once because yeah the success of forever really messed us up for Robin you can get away with it once because you can get away with it once because you can get away with it once because you can get away with it once because you can get away with it once because because if you don't, if it goes to, because, and also Batman Forever had enough of that cartoon vibe with an actual through line. And what Batman Robin is just throw all of that away and just go for the commercials and the stupid jokes and the puns and put Arnold in there. He'll be as big as Jim and Arnold was on his way down at that point. And Thurman and, you know, and Alicia Silverstone who both at the time, at the time. Yeah, yeah. So it just, it just, but this film in particular, I get what you're saying, yes. like if we're just talking about show, which I wanted to show you all this.

Have you guys been to the, to the Oscar museum yet? No, no. Dude. So they have an entire, yeah, it's open and they have an entire section in like the kind of special effects sci-fi area just to Batman returns. So like they have, so they have like the what the penguin knows, the prosthetic they had there.

It's kind of hard to see because I hold on. It's going through your bookshelf a little bit. Why don't you just, why don't you send him to you? Just text them. I'll put it on the screen. Yeah, that's, that's interesting. You know what I did like, what I really liked about this, and I didn't, I don't think I ever picked up on it before.

If I did, I just, maybe this wasn't in the geek space hanging out with Koi and Winston, but I love that there's like a Metropolis mentioned. Yeah. They mentioned Metropolis. It was just a throwaway line, but it's like, okay, that exists here. What I didn't find consistent was they, was this, I mean, it was connected to Batman 89 and in the next, and returns because same Alfred, same. They mentioned Catwoman.

Wait. But he said you've never been in love before and yet you've been in love twice, my guy. That's what I mean. He said that. And then he also said, this is the first time I'm ever telling anybody this. So maybe they can have a catwoman in this universe, but not Michelle Pfeiffer and my multiversal Alfred theory. I mean, yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess the-J-K. Simmons of the Batman's.

He's the constant. He's the anchor. Yeah, if there was, look, what they could have done, they could. could have done a full-on multiverse type of thing, the same way that No Way Home did, connecting all this together. But from what the reports are, is that the Flash is just paying attention

to Burton's, Batman's, and they're ignoring a few months. Well, and Affleck comes in. But I'm just mean out of these. Oh, from these four of that are out of these. Well, okay, so there's a couple things that, like, stuck out of my mind. I mean, one, it was very uncharacteristic of that. Like, if his back is against the wall,

he will just say who he is to end the thing. I thought it was very unrealistic that just because Harvesting, just because Harvey had a bomb, he immediately goes, Harvey, I'm bat bat. I'm like, no, no, dude. No, all that was, all that, yeah, I was just like, yeah, he can do it. Why?

And no one will hear him anyway. They weren't thinking about the voices. They were just, they just wanted to let us know, hey, it's loud in there. And Robin, yeah, Robin flipping around at the top and seeing his, there was, even that should have been a little more tragic than it really was. Yeah, it was very, I mean, It's a campy movie, but they definitely were like,

look at their faces for six seconds of they're slightly upset. Okay, I'm moving on. Yep. What was your other thing? You said you had a couple things. Yeah. I'm trying to, okay, it was that. And then we were talking about Selena and, oh, oh,

why does everyone know who this dude is? Everyone knows who Batman is. Every single villain figures out who the hell he is. Every love it just figures out who the hell he is. Like the whole crew, which is why you essentially, I guess, have to murder everyone because they all figure out who Batman is. That's how Batman solves

crime is that people figure it out, it's got to wipe them out. They're not coming back. That's the Joker problem solved. It's over, they're gone. Because what, Two-Face dies, and then Jim Carrey, lost his mind. Or Lerdell loses his mind and thinks he's Batman. Penguin's dead. Oh, our first and only Arkham.

Dude, our first and only Arkham. We don't see Arkham anywhere else in any other live iteration. I like that a lot. And, and, but Again, how much of a Jim Carrey moment was that? And he's like, I'm Batman. You know, like that? I did that for years as a kid. Whenever I had just flapping around the house.

It's great. And like I said, I absolutely love a lot of the Jim Carreyisms in here. But it's, you know, there's the Edward Nigma. And you can tell he shot it at different times because of his hair, you know, and which has got the big floppy Jim Carrey here at one point in the 90s here. I love what he's doing the Val Kilmer and he puts the mole on at the party. and he's just like, big. That was so good.

That was great. And well, he does, the stuff that he does, like the movements when he's blowing up the, all the bad stuff. And like, it's, that's what I meant when it's,

that's really when I said, as I was watching that, I was like, yeah, this is a pure cartoon. Because even they throw in the sound effects. Oh, the sound design is insane.

They gave him like three different sound in that one baseball sequence. The movie's nuts. If you ever need a confirmation that this is the, this based off of the 66 ones, you just watch that scene where he's, running around blowing things up and and and Tommy Lee Jones does annoy me throughout this movie though because he's he's Jim Carrey at least the character of Edward Nigma you you he's essentially the

same characters say Jamie Fox is Electro and amazing Spider-Man too they both have they both want to impress the our hero and they both feel slighted by the hero although I think that Jamie Fox's motivation and his kind of mental health plays more into me believing it than in this. Like he's just kind of, they don't really show, he's just a lunatic. Like he's just a pure lunatic

where he's sitting down and he says, uh, oh, you don't like my idea. I'll show you. Nothing happens to him. He doesn't fall in acid like Jack Napier. He doesn't get abandoned by his parents like the penguin.

He doesn't, you know, get eaten by 75 cats and get supernatural powers. He, he, he's just a lunatic. And even Tommy Lee Jones has got acid poured in his face. Yeah.

I feel like the more, he gets crazy. easier because he gets all the too much IQ. No, for sure. Initially. But I want to, Koi, I want to talk to because a lot of the origin with the Riddler is just kind of that.

He gets slided by a boss. It's not always at Wayne Tech, but he gets slided by a boss. And he is very intelligent and extremely narcissistic. So then he kind of starts to go into this psychotic place where he'll just kill people. But what doesn't, didn't quite ring to me,

but I guess it technically makes sense. If you feel slided by Wayne because Wayne fired him, it's the idea that he's giving the riddles to Bruce Wayne and not to Batman. You know what I'm saying? Because normally he's leaving, I guess he's normally leaving the clues for Batman to kind of figure his shit out. I think it's because he wants to prove that he's better than Wayne, not that he's better than Batman.

I think he's trying to prove he's smarter than Wayne, which is why they're directed at him, which works for the movie versus the comic. Yeah, no, that's true. Because it's an ego thing. The whole thing is about, and that's what Nigma's so fun because it's ego. That's why I'm really excited for what Dano does against Pattinson's ego is what drives the character to me is thinking he's better than others.

And like I think in this case, they narrowed it down to Val Kilmer versus Jim Carrey in that battle. And I think it's really smart casting to cast someone like Jim Carrey opposite Val Kilmer because VK is so composed and poised. And obviously Jim Carrey's pure madness. So the intelligence and different directions really worked for me. I wonder how those two got along too. I don't remember hearing anything about it. I'm sure there's reports on it. But the only reason I asked that is because Val Kilmer wanted to be the level of star that Jim Carrey was and didn't get it.

And when you, I mean, he became a big star. There's no doubt about it. He just didn't have the same. We're talking mega star versus big star, you know. And, and when you, and I'm sure, as Jim Carrey just said in that interview, when you're interviewing is you're the star of that movie. And like Batman was, as Corey said before, Batman has at that point had never been the star of the movie. Has Batman ever been a... Has Batman ever been a star?

Heaven Begins. Heaven Begins maybe is the only one. Because even Dark Knight, that's Joker, bro. He's Ledger runs that street. And everyone complaining about that. I'm like, watch the other four movies. At that point, it had been that. At that point, it had been a villain plus Batman show,

so I didn't understand that complaint. But I do think we're going to get a Batman-centric universe with the Batman. The Matt Reeves universe, I think is going to be... Yeah, but I think they're really going to go pretty heavy. on on on on ridler because they're gonna go multiple rogues i mean i'm hearing a lot of rumors of beyond just the ones we know about there's a lot of villains introduced here but i think that's going to work because we're so invested in batman so by the way i i mentioned to you guys and i can

and i think the audience knows bobby moornehan's coming on big thing and taped the episode with him yesterday and we were talking about the penguin and dude he had been dying he's just like he's like he's like uh calm feral's uh as penguin he goes give it to a fat guy will you It's so good. He's just like enough with the pretty people. It was hilarious. Bobby Moynihan is, I love that,

dude. I had such a great conversation with him. I can't wait for everybody to check it out. It'll be coming out in the next couple weeks. That's amazing. I can't wait for that one at all. But I, yeah,

I mean, just some of the other stuff just about this film, I think that really stuck out to me. We got a decent amount more action. I mean, I know returns, we got a lot of the fights, but they tended to be kind of like

went off like just pull a grappling hook, set someone on fire with the Batmobile. This time we got to see Batman like scrapping with people. Yeah, there was some fun fights. And it's, what you can't take away from this movie is energy. Like this movie has a lot of energy. Well, the opening with the Tommy Lee Jones acid,

that whole that of acid, like that was more big action than we got in any first act of the other two. That was a third act, third act set piece, which that was really smart because then like you said, the action stays up, the energy stays up. from that point on. Yeah, I mean, it, it moves. And the stuff with Robin, where Robin comes in,

and Batman's like drowning in sand and he comes and saves them and they're dynamic. And everybody at that one point, because they asked Tim Burton, I think they asked him a couple times about, will Robin be in the movies? I don't think Tim Burton never wanted to put Robin in it. And then, you know, like, you got to put him in this one. Everybody wants to see Robin is going back to that whole conversation with the 66 stuff and what with Bert Ward, you know, and how, I was going to say even the animated series. So remember the animated series uses the theme from 89 and returns. And so like they had already built out that lore where Robin was now on screen.

So I guarantee you the studio was like, Robin is killing it for the animated series, let alone the 60. You have to find a way to bring him in. I mean, Wayans still makes money off of being cast as Robin and then being on screen. That's wild. That's so wild. Didn't he get cast twice? Yeah, Wayans gets residual checks from both movies today. And, like, he's not on screen.

Because that's how bad the studio wanted Robin. He was in the cast. The fact that Robin was also going to be black is kind of wild, too. In the 90s of all times, that's absolutely wild. We're going to have black two-faced. We're going to have black Robin. Like, they actually, you know, they were there. And it is rough for me to see this movie go,

what if Robin's white and two-faced is white? Like, one man set up. But wait, but here's the question also, too. with Billy D. Williams going off to that, they setting it up. I wonder at that point what was going on with Billy D. If they ever made a, well,

I can tell you right now, as I answer my own question, they could get Tommy Lee Jones who just won the Oscar, supporting Oscar for the fugitive. And they're like, what if we switch it up at this point? He wasn't even in the second movie. They could switch up and it's a dim,

but they kept Pat Hingle and they kept the supporting cast other, like if Batman changed someone was terrible though, man. Pat Hanger, not terrible. The, the, the, the, the usage. of Commissioner Gordon was worthless. Here's the other reason. It made no sense. Bruce Wayne gets bonked on the head.

They could have shot him in the head. And for some reason, Riddler goes, make him suffer. I get it. You want to play the game at the end because you're a cartoon villain fine. And who built that trap with all the question marks in it?

What laborers did you hire? I was thinking the same thing. But the other thing is, the bat signal is on. And Commissioner Gordon goes, maybe turning it off. He's not coming. And then Batman comes in, gives him the stupid thumbs up as he's flying away in the bad thing. And first of all, if you knew what-

With the Batman chair. I didn't see that. But Winston, if the commissioner knew that the Ridler and Two-Face were doing all this stuff, well, where were you at the mansion? How did he find out about it? Did Alfred call him and go, hey, we just got robbed over here. Don't do anything. Just throw the bat signal up.

like who's what why how did he's not a good commissioner he trusts batman how do he know how did he know that anything was going on plus he's like yeah you go get him you're vigilante i'm not sending any of my people we haven't talked about the he gets it he saw the island there's a giant green light he's like bro we ain't touching that with a 40 foot that's super mill shit i don't we'll do it if these two idiots don't don't make it i think the best moment we haven't talked about is when Nicole Kidman's going back and forth between Bruce and Bats. And then he's leaving the place and she's just turned down Batman. And the worst smile in cinema history happens.

I love that smile. Under the Cali. Yeah, it's so bad. It's so. Bill Kilber's like one of the most handsome people in history and they made him a duck. Like how did that smile occur? Wait, when did that happen? So after, yeah, he goes to tell Chase, he's like, I'm going to let her choose.

Oh, when she chooses Bruce, said he just got. Yeah, he gives that smile. I love that, too. but it's a lot of it. I mean, even there's a lot. I mean, the stuff, as you mentioned,

Drew Barrymore, this is also mid-90s. The fact, it was just like, hey, Drew, you want to be in Batman? It's not like a massive part. Sure,

I'll be in Batman. Why not? That's what it seemed like. And that's what the Batman does with movies. If you look at every bat cast, it is this beautiful that year in cinema, the biggest names. And that's what this,

this one we're getting this year is, look at like Colin Farrell, Paul Dano, but they're going a lot more with the intellectual driven. They're going a lot more of like, We don't have movie stars like we did in the 90s, but we've got these incredible powerhouse actors. So it's actually really cool to see all these supporting forces of nature

gathered around the Batman instead of just getting the shiniest objects. Agreed. Yeah, once in good. I mean, you still sort of get it. If I'm looking at Begins right now, Ken Watnave, I mean, you have the obvious, you know, Christian Bale, Michael Kay and Liamese, but Ken Watan Nabe's in there. You throw in Morgan Freeman.

Like, it really is just kind of like, yeah. It's always the biggest people at the time. Mm-hmm. But if you look at the way they change tone, it's more about Oscar, it's more about, it's not about the, I think Pattinson is one of the best actors working. So I know a lot of people are going to be like,

but Pattinson is just a pretty boy. Like they didn't cast him because he was Twilight. They cast him because of the Rover and because of a good time. But look, and as we get into the Nolan movies, which were coming up after Batman and Robin, is that it's the same conversation that these producers had after Batman returns,

but just the opposite side of it, right? It's like, hey, we've been out of this thing. Batman's been gone for some got to bring Batman back. People are starting to really push more so since X-Men and everything too. People are really starting to, what do we do? Well, Nolan's got to take,

you know, and he just done this and that. And he wants to go more serious. He wants to go like burden serious. No, even more serious. Like making it dramatically. There's no supernatural stuff.

It could be fun. Could be interesting. I don't bring the budget too big, but make it big enough. And then that was the right strategy. So that's all that movie. We owe that movie so much. We owe that movie so much.

And we'll get into that. and more once we get into those Nolan movies. I'm excited to talk about those. But for this one, I think, you know, you also have to add that chemistry. If you look at it, or wrestling or whatever, the heel and the baby face have to be on the same page and they got to make each other work.

And I do think that Jim Carrey and Bill Kilmer had some fun moments together in this movie. Especially the mole scene. I like them maskless. I like them facing off. That scene was so great, I thought. Yeah, it was good. It may just be me.

I really enjoy Val Kilmer as Bruce in this. Me too. Like a lot. Maybe. Great. Maybe more, like, definitely more so than Christian Bail. Probably more so than Ben Affleck because I felt more Ben Affleck than anything. Though I think Ben Affleck did a great job.

I think I still maybe edge out Keaton a little bit. But I think Val Kilmer just like when he needed to like be Bruce, I thought he did a great job with it. Yeah. You know, the other thing though I meant to bring up to you guys was that the one thing I think that, people do all the time and it's and it bothers me as a music lover. Scores and composers are always disregarded as how important scores are for film, like especially in the movie, the hierarchy,

if you will, the business. Like you look at what Perlmutter was doing forever and just basically getting rid of Sylvesteri and the thank God once he left Feige, those came back, right? Because it's so you want to, you want to associate the themes. That's why still to this day, as great as Hans Zimmer score was for Superman,

you're never going to get past the John Williams one. And it's almost why I wish that it would, like, they would have bought it just for Superman. And they just use it for every Superman from now until forever because it's so synonymous with Superman that you just tie it in a different way. If your tone works a different way, because they did it. There was a YouTube channel that combined the Zimmer score with Williams and it worked wonderful.

And the flip side is that Elfman's score should have been used, especially with, you know, Burton as a composer. they did that but they did this specifically i don't know if you remember the part where uh two face sets uh batman on fire and he has the cape there is the you hear the na na na na na you hear that like the that's that i'm talking of the burton one the tim i mean i understand that but i'm saying but i'm saying i'm saying you don't use elphman here because again they're focusing on this being more like the 66 that's they're separating that's and that's ultimately why they did it i'm just saying why they did it

going with their plan it made sense. I'm just saying that we were so used to that theme in general and it's a different tone from Elfman to this and maybe Elfman didn't want his music in there. I don't know but I just love the idea of tying a superhero or a hero in general

to that theme because when you hear it you just it does something to you. And even as bad as that silly as the first not the standard cut, the first cut of it, when they use those themes, that was one of the few things I missed from, I do think the new Gianchino score is going to be as iconic and tied to this Batman.

I think it makes sense to get a new score for this Batman because it's such a different tone. But I love that theme. Yeah. And I think that I'll even push back against my own thing that it should never change because, I mean, I love Zimmer's Batman and fit for that tone. I just, I don't know, it's just kind of the score nerd in me that once the composer comes up with the theme, they should own it, right? it should be it should be that person's team each batman it changes like the actor changes so i you know

i mean like i feel like patins deserves the g and chino's score because it's darker so i guess the only argument that i could really because i'm i'm not going to push back in somebody that's like i don't agree with you i i get it but what i what i would say though the only difference between say nolan and patinson and even aflick right is they weren't connected to this burton universe the this movie was this movie was connected i see the same so that's that's more so why I it threw me off because we're trying you have the same Alfred and the same commissioner and all that but you're not you're going you're still going so far away from it that is it connecting is it a multiverse I don't know so hopefully flashpoint yeah yeah I don't think they knew I think they were just trying to pretend that everything because because what they but they lost both Keaton and Burton they both were like because if I'm not mistaken Burton was the one that cast Marlin and was trying to get Marlon and and Billy D to be in forever and then once you switch to Schumacher recast. happened for for both two face and robin and that's where you end up with timidly jones and o'd donald so he was pretty clear on the fact that he wasn't going to come back of burton didn't

come back that was that was where yeah so and and now i wonder i wonder what i'd love to hear what changed you know for he'd all those years later especially after like birdman and everything yeah i mean birdman and spider man it's interesting how much he's tied into the the superhero mythos in all new ways well but birdman specifically because it it takes a crack at super oh directly yeah like so so So directly. And him. So anyway, but Val Kilmer also, we know that he didn't have a great experience because he doesn't come back for Batman and Robin. I don't even know if he was asked.

I don't know if he was asked. I'm not sure. I don't know the full story. Probably go little research on that before we get to next week because. There's some talk on it in the documentary. It seemed like he had a pretty rough time. It seemed like him and Schmacher kind of butt heads for a long time. They didn't.

Yeah. But I'll tell you, the bad news for me was that I started, I was like, as I mentioned to you, started watching Batman and Rob. I was like, well, at least it's only an hour and a half. That movie's two hours long. It's two hours long. There's a two hour long movie. Like for that, that's going to be, that's like chugging peptobismo, man. For like two hours.

There's, there, there are some moments that like you will probably enjoy a little bit, but you're right. Overall, it is, it is as a child once again, I loved it. But as I've seen it at older ages, I'm like, Jesus, I love some crap. I was a child. It's bad. I watched the first 10 minutes of it. Like I said with this one, the comparison is it's not even the same.

Like there's the overall tone of what this movie wants to be, the Batman Forever. You get on board with it. It has a story. This is just, I mean, sledgehammer to the balls type stuff. When you also consider that Mr. Freeze is, again, one of the smarter, one of the more serious villains that a lot of times Batman and Freeze have like a loose ally ship based on if it will help Victor, save his wife. He'll do what he has to do if it can help save his wife. And they made him just full cartoon pun

over the top. Oh, and Uma, like Poison Ivy is a brilliant character and they just made her like... Dude, oh my God. I'm curious and now that's going to go. And Bain is a psychological and intelligence evil to Batman. Bruce Wayne is...

He doesn't... The disrespect to Bain will not stand. Like, I'm really worried about... I love Bain. And that's so that's coming up soon. But before we get the hell out of here, I did get those pictures. Here's one of those from Winston. Oh, yeah.

So that's a, that's a cobopop manner. Um, so they, they have all of that there. Um, and yeah, they have a full like way out where they kind of explain that. That is the prosthetic.

I'm sorry, it's a little blurry. That's a prosthetic of, uh, the nose for penguin that, uh, that Danny DeBito had on. And then this is in,

uh, the, the, the rendering they did, uh, when they were making the film of the bat cave. So you can kind of see there the different, different areas.

And it's, there's a lot more. I just was like, I can't take every photo here. But if you're in LA, I cannot recommend the Oscar Museum enough, especially if you can go in the next month or two. They have a whole floor dedicated to Miyazaki that's going to go away in a couple of months. But it's pretty amazing.

All right. Well, thank you, everybody. Thank you to Winston and Koi for Batman Forever. And make sure next week you check us out for Batman and Robin. Then after that, we're going to do the Nolan films. And then we will be seeing the Batman all three hours of it doing a big, long conversation here. I'm so curious on how I mean because like we said when we did our Spider-Man one that one was our it's still to this day our highest viewed big thing episode that we've done I'm curious if the Batman will we'll get close I'm very curious so that will be coming out once we see it and don't forget please show a little class we'll subscribe and and if you want to show an ounce then you just hit the notification button that's all you got to do join the Patreon today you go to patreon.com slash S-E-N-L-L-L-I- Do it. and let the English see you do it.

Hey, before I go, it was funny, I've been, I've been telling the audience to show a little, right, show a little class

and hit the button. And most people are getting it, and they're laughing at it. You know, there were some people in commenting, and I just showed a little. I finally showed an ounce of class. I saw a comment that came in,

guys, I laughed my ass off. The guy wrote, fuck you for telling people to show some class. I was going to, it took every bit of me. Wow. It took every bit of me to not, to not write back.

no class but I didn't. I just left it alone. But it was I will be lying to you if I wasn't sitting there for about 20 to 30 seconds laughing at that.

I thought I was there. Fuck you. Tell you chose some class. He's the best. I'm mad at myself that I didn't screenshot it. Stupid. Anyway, there's still time.

It's forever. There is still time. There is forever. That's Batman forever. All right, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us today. Coy, Andrew, Winston, A. Marshall, and me.

Thank you. We'll see you next time.