The Kristian Harloff Show - REWATCH: Spider-Man 2 (2004) Deep Dive | The Big Thing

Episode Date: October 15, 2021

We are back with our Spider-Man rewatch. We return with Spider-Man 2! This is one of the most beloved movies in the superhero genre of all time. It is always debated, is it dated? Does it hold up? Kristian, Winston and Coy get into it and talk about how it will link into No Way Home. Follow on Twitter Kristian Harloff https://bit.ly/31PePMD Mark Ellis https://bit.ly/2U1wKPa Brett Sheridan https://bit.ly/2HBltii Steph Sabraw https://bit.ly/3m0ud0z Kate Mulligan https://bit.ly/3owBneT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Thank you for joining us to our Spider-Man 2 rewatch. This is the 2004 Sam Ramey version. We started last week with the, obviously, the first one. And we're going to be doing a full rewatch of all these movies leading up to No Way Home. It's myself, Coy Jan Drew, and Winston Marshall, Winston A. Marshall. Thank you, man. And we will be doing a full-on, spoiler-heavy discussion. We watched it.

We're going to talk about it. It's just going to go on and on and on. We had a lot of fun last time. We're going to have a lot of fun this time. So join us. Here we go. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. It's a big thing.

It's Christian Harloff here. Thank you for joining us. Make sure if you didn't already do this, that you subscribe to us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever podcasts are found. And make sure that you are commenting to this video here. I've been responding to all of them. I spent about three or three and a half hours on the plane

on the way back from New York just responding to comments. And it was a lot of fun. So, all right, LIS. LIS? LIS. I like that. LIS. LIS.

Shorten it. LISN's too long. That's right. Have we gotten to that point in the world now that English is organic. It grows. It's just lists. Just list because I'll tell you why we need to list. Hot new slang.

LIS. I'm too fucking tired to finish the sentence. That's exactly what. It's a good way to start a long show with shortening the word listen. It's right. Winston, you want before we get into this, you want to talk about your buddy there? No. Buddy

No, I know that that's his name No, he's good guy No, it's not, that's Chuckie, not buddy No, but I thought Chuckie was Wasn't it Buddy the doll? Good guys. Oh. See?

I don't like it. Just give him a hold his hand, give him a hug. Fuck you. So, all right. I was going to say, guys, don't worry. I know last time we dropped a couple of, uh, okay, that's the only one. That's the only one.

That's the PG-13. That one's warranted. Anyway, so we, you set them up for it. Yeah, so look, so what we're, and some people talk about this on our rewatch last week that they said we went a little too heavy into how it's going to all relate to No Way Home and that's

fine, that's cool. But we are going to be doing that because that's the whole reason for these rewatches but we will get into the overall just the basics of this movie, how it breaks down, all of it and it's saying... You are so investing your hand. You are showing your hand. See, that's the funny

thing, Christian. You're not a very good... I would love to play poker with you because I don't play poker. I can take all your money because I don't play poker. Yeah, we'll get into it. It breaks down. So, Christian, let me ask you. What do you think about Spider-Man, too? Look, here's the thing with this film.

Because I, but back on the AMC days and my collider, when I would talk about this, people used to give me so much shit. Because I used to say, I don't think it's the best Spider-Man movie. I don't think it's the best superhero movie. I just think it's overrated. So I said, I can't wait to see it to tell myself that I'm wrong. And I'm here to tell myself, you weren't wrong. It's overrated. The movie is overrated.

And I know I'm going to get shit in the comments And I know people are going to be coming for me And you guys said the opposite thing And what I said, because when you guys walked in, The first thing I said to both you was, This movie is really overrated. And what you guys both said was, Well, what you both said was, yes, you know,

you're not big fans of it, but you also said the same thing, which was you think it's better than the first. Yes. I don't feel that way. I love the first movie because what I said to Winston was, I think that there's a lot of, and I'll preface it by saying this,

There's a lot of great stuff in this movie. There's no doubt. It's not a terrible movie. I just think that it's overrated for the amount of love that it gets. This isn't like Spider-Man 3 bad. This is just, to me, there's a lot of great stuff happening.

You'd mention it off-camera that Alpha Melina is a standout phenomenon. Obviously, you'll go into that, but he's great. And there's some moments in this movie that are serious and that hit and that really, really work. But it's combined with that silly tone

of the first movie, that at least the first movie, it never straight away from. It was goofy from start to finish and there was, you know, when Willem Defoe pops in, but it's, it ties into the girl, go, look, it's Spider-Man. You know, it's like, it all played into the same tone. This one, I feel like the tone is all over the place at points.

And I get it. Spider-Man is a loser. I get it. I mean, they beat you over the head that he's a loser. It's like, oh, he can't deliver the pizzas. He's falling on his face. He can't do this. And then the hors d'oeuvs thing, it's like, I'm going to get an hors d'oeuvre.

Nope. Nice. Someone beat you, too. it, Louis. And it's so stupid. It drove me nuts. That's the way Toby plays him. He plays him so one-note loser. And it's my big problem with the whole trilogy. And I think

that arguably the third one is the least losery of them, because at least he's a weird little emo boy. But I just don't get why they thought that underdog equaled loser. Because my big problem with any genre content is when our hero is supposed to be the underdog

and never becomes likable. Like I get, like underdogs you're supposed to Route 4, not be like, yo, maybe Flash beat him up for a reason. And that's weird. He's kind of douchey in this one. Yeah. Until, you know, the end when he gets, he gets back to it and he has this whole realization that he is Spider-Man.

That there was, like I said, there are some really good things that happen. I really like the scene when he flashes back to Ben and he's like, I'm Spider-Man no more. And I can't take your hand. I can't do that. I thought it was a nice moment. I think there's a lot of nice moments in this. I think the stuff the, and I'll let you talk about this in a second one.

and the motivation for Doc Ock, the stuff with his wife and how that plays out because he's not a bad guy and he has his great conversation with Peter. As I said in the beginning, this is not me saying this is a terrible movie. This is a good movie. I just, when people throw their flag into the sand

and say, this is the best movie, I don't get it. I don't get it. It's a nostalgia thing. It's what a lot of us do with all sorts of stuff where you sit there and go, this is the greatest thing that ever happened. Or this is the worst thing that ever happened when you go back with objective eyes

outside of your childhood memories, and you can go, hey, let's just be real about what we're watching here. So like you said, is it a good movie? Yes, it's a good movie, but is it as good as everyone says? No, it doesn't touch Dark Night. It doesn't touch most things in the MCU. It doesn't touch a lot of the Spider-Nine movies. The Holland movies, I think are much better than this.

I think both Holland movies are better for sure. Obviously, doesn't even come close to Spider-Verse. I honestly, and I'm sure I'm going to catch you for this, I think the first amazing Spider-Man is better than this, honestly. Because I think, obviously, you're getting a retelling of, the origin story again, which when you get the same origin story over and over again

can get a little, you know, monotonous. They repeat a lot of the same beats in this movie. A lot of the same beats. And I guess that's the big part here is I think the only thing that has some like major like upgrades

from the first movie, which is why I think it also makes it better than the first movie is Molina. Yes, he's great in the movie. Absolutely great. His motivations. The fact that he is essentially, which is the case with Doc Ock in most iterations,

is that he is Tony Stark without the money. Yeah. Like equally as smart, trying to do something great for the world. And goes to the dark side. And then things just go completely sideways.

Yeah. And so instead of Tony where it's like, now I got like shrapnel in my chest and I realize I'm doing wrong and I'm going to do better, Ock loses everything. And in this case in the movie, his wife,

right? And so between losing all his wife and his work, that's it. So I think, but that's the stuff that I like, right? A lot.

Like that and it's just a matter of, and I think it's sometimes some of my biggest problems in a lot of movies is that the way that the humor is kind of placed in there out of nowhere when these moments are really working. Like you do see those Spider-Man moments that we were thinking what we're missing from Toby in this one in the bank. So when Spider-Man comes in and says, you change.

That's a great Spider-Man moment. I mean, fantastic. And that's a kind of action in fights I want to see. Fights were better for sure. Yeah, but like, you know, then it gets to the Joel McHale picking up the thing and she slaps his hand. Who looks older than he does now. Right.

I know. It's bizarre. But like, makeup, man. And what I'll say about Sam Ramey? This dude knows how to cast background players. How many people are giant? Yeah, this guy's a film of a bar on the train. Yeah.

Joey Diaz. Joey Diaz. Yeah, like, Bonnie Somerville. You know, you got Elizabeth Banks, obviously, in that small role. I mean, there's, there were a couple of people who popped in, even a few different extras that popped in there. And I was, or not extras per se, but just little background players. I'm like, oh, he knows how to cast.

And like, the movie, what I. will say about it is it doesn't lose its fun aspect. So I understand that people have fun watching this movie. It's just a matter of like the way out. Some people think this movie's perfect and I think it's far from perfect. So for me, rewatching objectively. As a kid, I was okay with Toby because that's what I had. As a kid, I was just excited to see Spider-Man on the screen. As I've gotten older, Toby's been the weak link for me and all these films. And I think I liked this re-watch a little bit more than most of you did. I give it like the first one's a B-plus for me. The second, this new one's an A-minus. So higher than you guys you're going to get, but at the same time, I can't fully remove, I can't possibly go like,

oh, I'm not excited to watch a Spider-Man movie. So what I'm excited for is when we re-watch the next of these waves, is it just, they all get elevated. Am I going to be like, oh, we're watching Spider-Man, because I've had a real problem with the Iron Man Jr. problem of Tom Holland. So I think it might retroactively be making me enjoy. This feels like New York. This feels like a guy that's protecting his neighborhood.

So I'm really curious if my Marvel experience, which I do argue might be a better film, is causing me to retroactively enjoy just how contained these are. And that's nice. I don't disagree with a single thing that you said there. I think that all of that makes sense. And I think that as I mentioned to you guys why my daughter wanted to watch the last one first

was because of exactly that. She's like, oh, he knows Iron Man already. I want to see how he became Spider-Man. Like, again, I think my biggest issue with the rewatch was not the movie itself. It was just the fact that like anytime you say anything bad about this movie or any criticism, people are just like,

what are you talking about this, the best Spider-Man? and I just can't see it. I see so much wrong with it, but I see so much right with it. There's a lot right with it. Well, I mean, it's funny. I know you said the scene that you don't love is they're trying to do the surgery on Ack

and the arms wake up and start murdering everybody. It's not that I don't like the scene itself. It doesn't get the movie at all. It's the idea of the scene where he is there and then it's like these arms have taken him over and he has now become the villain. I like that. What I didn't like about is it starts to become a Sam Ramey B movie

with all of the screen. screaming and the scratching of the floor at every other scene. And I don't like when he, Bruce Campbell, I'm going to forgive that you repeat it. But the guy, the doctor is the, is the criminal who killed his uncle. Oh, no way. I'm pretty sure. Wait, wait. You mean the actor?

It's the same actor that tells him you're not, if this dream you're having. Is that what you're talking about? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, the one when during that scene when Doc Ock destroyed that, and then at the very, there's a, there's a doctor that's against the wall and the arm comes in. Oh, what the, and you see the foreshot of him. I'm pretty sure. I could be wrong. I could be wrong, but it seemed it was the same, same actor.

The guy that gets stabbed through the chest of the tentacles, John Landis. Yeah. So I don't know if that's the one you're talking about. Okay. That wasn't the beard. No, it was towards the choice. Well, I was just going to say the thing about that scene in particular that I then was able to see because there's no other elements of it in the rest of the film is that that's where you see Sam Ramey's like horror side. I know.

But if it doesn't fit at the sound of the film. No, I understand that. But I think what I would have preferred to have happened at that particular juncture if that's going to be included. in there because it honestly is very similar to Shazam. Shazam does the same thing. When you go into the boardroom, you have that horror scene, but then you don't really ever see that again. Well, you stay with the ominousness of Mark Strong, whereas the ominousness of, he, Alfred Molina never goes as dark as Mark Strong stays.

So for me, it worked in Shazam because there's an implication of depth. Well, part of that, I guess, would have to be the fact that that was the arms on their own. That was not Ock. That was purely the arms looking out for their own survival, and so they're going to murder at any cost. And I like that. See, that part of it I liked.

It was the particular shots that just became, the same way sometimes when I have a problem with, like, Tim Burton is that when it becomes a Tim Burton movie and goes away from the story. Sure. And it's like, oh, this isn't really trying to tell the story. This is just Tim Burton trying to do his Tim Burton thing. And that's what I got with that scene. It was Sam Ramey doing.

Having a Sam Ramey day. It was a Sam Ramey moment. And he loves to have people scream. Like, and even Bonnie, who I love. Yeah. Unnecessary. Dude, I don't know why. It was fun to see her, but it also was ridiculous to have her look out realistically and be like, what's going on?

And then, ah, look. The Sam Rangish scream moment. He does that throughout the whole thing. Like when Jay Jonah Jameson, who again steals it, after he's so excited that Spider-Man is gone. And then they just do the shout with the newspaper. And it's like, Spider-Man no more. And they zoom into it again. It's a stylistic moment that's just like, but it's just overdone throughout the entire film.

That's the one thing that you. cheesiness that takes it up 10 notches for me that's too much. Even when like doing those types of wipes, those very old school wipes, so like when Molina knocks him out and then it's like, like right into the Spider-Man symbol and then we're outside Harry's place. And I'm like, you couldn't have just done a normal transition. You had to like go into the- I do want to give caveat.

I said depth. I meant depth of evil with Molina. I think Molina is an incredible performance in this. But even he has moments that don't fit the tone of the film because I don't know that the film has a tone. And that was interesting about the rewax. It's got three different tones. And that's not a movie.

And whereas, like, I would say, I like Shazam as a comparison, because that is a almost horror PG-13 film. I think Shazam kept a consistent tone while being a weird tone, whereas this is like, maybe an action. Well, but I guess that was the one thing. I think you're right in the sense that if we had just picked two tones to go with and blended them together. That's much more common.

Because Shazam did that. Shazam is this goofy coming-of-age superhero film mixed with that horror tone from Mark Strong. Yeah, it's an amblin film. Right, right, exactly. It almost felt kind of like stranger things, to be honest. This is not an amblin film, nor is it really. And I don't want to be the one that's like, I mean, we're all saying negatives.

Overall, we would not have the seriousness of modern day cinema in the comic book realm without this movie and X-Men and the foundational stuff. And I always think that Blade doesn't get enough credit for being a not even comic-y tone, like 1998 predates even The Matrix. but I do feel like that wasn't a $500 million change the cinema landscape film. What we need to look at with Spider-Man too is how it affected the choices they made even as close to amazing Spider-Man. Because when we watch that, that's a totally different type of movie altogether. Right. And they had to leave this behind.

It's what it also did. I mean, there's, I'm like torn on the whole Superman 2, I lose my powers angle, right? As part of it, you understand why they did it because he's trying to battle this thing. He's trying to balance between being Peter and being Spider-Man. He's losing the love of his life. But again, instead of this time, it's not Harry. It's the astronaut instead. Right.

And it's just replaced Harry with this guy. And then he's got to try to win her over again. It's the same beat from the first movie, but you understand why. And then he keeps losing the webs. And it's, as we mentioned, that doctor beforehand, with a doctor telling him, this is just stress. Like, you've got to choose. You have a choice.

I like that. thing, and I can't tell if the doctor knows that he's Spider-Man or not, but he definitely is talking to him like, so you need some blue chute. Yeah, that's definitely a blue shoe, and the whole thing's like an ED metaphor. Sometimes this happens to a gentleman when you're a little stressed, you know, maybe

you take some time and decide, do you want to be Spider-Man or not? Do you want to have a heart penis or not? Yeah, that was the original line. Sam Ramies like, all right, that's what we've got to cut. You're not able to shoot webs. Okay, so, you know, that's what it was. But I mean, I also

struggle with the Jesus stuff. Like, I really had a hard time with how on the nose the whole, like, New Yorkers stick together. Like, I know how important that is to Spider-Man. I love that about the character. But in film. But remember, though, this is 2004. It's still three years removed from 9-11. Totally fair.

And that's, I like the bond of New Yorkers. Yeah. I don't love the full, oh, savior carrier cross. Because if they just ended it with a bunch of New Yorkers standing in front of them, I would have bought it. Yeah. But since they did the thing with, like, got to go to 12. That's when I...

But there is that moment that is pretty emotional. that I think does work when they're just, when they're bonding together to protect him. The kids thing works great. That was the bonding works great. Yeah. But also, hold on a second. It's not easy being the one everyone counts on

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I love and things great. The woman is clearly in like her mid-60s, almost 70s, right? There's no way. With that Doc Ox up that she ain't having a heart attack girl. Throwing off a building twice. Twice. Twice. But she does smash him in the head with an umbrella, so there's that. Great work. Great team up.

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You got an upgrade. That last batch. You got four is that much better? It's like, you have you ever seen the first Terminator? Yeah. So when they go to the future scene, they've got that. that futuristic, when they're hunting all these humans, and it's got that light coming down,

that's what it is. It misses nothing. Well, I mean, because the light on the 3.0 is pretty good, but you're telling me they upped it even that, wow. Kyle Reese could not hide from this. But we ain't talking about Kyle Reese. We're talking about Peter Parker we're talking about Harry. And Harry's, that scene when he's at the party

and he's just like, slaps him in the face. Slaps him twice. Like a bion. Here's the problem. Here's my problem with that. is where I agree with you that my, the biggest week link in this trilogy, in my opinion, which sucks to say is Toby. Yeah.

Because I, for everything that we're going to see again in Spider-Man 3, I actually kind of enjoy how sadistic Harry gets and what Franco does with that. It's one of the few bright stars in that movie, in my opinion. This is that moment for, for Peter, even though he loves his friend, like put hands on me again and see what happens. Right. Because he's got a better arc. Franco's got a way better, more interesting arc.

Yeah, he's pissed off about his dad. And you buy the betrayal, you buy the decision she makes. By the time you get to the third one, it's actually a redemption moment when he does do something heroic. But in this film, you see that break of him understanding the depth of it. You see the father and son stuff. You see the friendship betrayal. You see this. Like, there's so much more going on with Harry and Spider-Man just stays a little bitch.

He just does the same thing the whole time. Like, every single thing is, ah, let's not talk about it right now. Well, that's what I'm saying. He's always deflecting it again. If this is a scenario where obviously you can't go full Spider-Man on him, you'll kill your friend. You can't do that. But I don't know a single friend that I have. You slap me once. Maybe I deserved it. You slap me a second time. Touch me again and see what the F happens. Right. See, I caught that one. I am. But I'm saying a lot of shit, but I, you know, it's all right. But, yeah, no, but you're right.

But it wasn't like in a hallway. It was at a party. Out of a part in front of a lot of it. And then, and then he gets double bitch. Because he's like, hey, stupid, take the picture of your girlfriend marrying my son. Uh-huh. And it's like, he's just like, it's not a character. How do you lose for the? that how do you root for that guy that the whole it's it's one thing we've all loved like eternal sunshine spotless spot on my favorite movie yeah and jim carrie is like a lovable loser in that in that in that one right but he's not like he's not he you don't have to beat me over the head with the fact he's not tripping over every step he's not he can't pay every single bill his his aunt bitchism his girlfriend bitches but everyone's bitching peter parker throughout this entire thing like the beginning with

the pizzas it's like everything almost almost just lean with the words The messed up thing about it is the only person that he has the stones to stand up to is his dead uncle. Right, right, right, right. That is literally the only person. He's like, you ain't Spider-Man no more, honk. You stay dead. Stay dead. Everybody else, Auntie, I accidentally got him killed.

Get out of my house. It's like, yo, I can't love you anymore. Get out of my house. Hey, yo, what, you love me more than you, you love your little friend, Spider-Man, slap, slap. Jonah's like, I'm not going to give you no money. Like, he literally stands up to no one. And I think the bigger problem with that is, and we were kind of, discussing this also before we started recording too is the fact that when you go to the comics when

you go to the animated series when you go to any other iteration of spider-man the idea of that super nerdy super unconfident peter parker has been gone since high school it is still there but he uses as a facade the way that clark does the same thing the way that bruce pretends to be this kind of asshole but he actually is always in control since we're missing the real science nerd here minus a couple like oh the machine's going to do this right you're not giving us something to look at him and go, wow, he is actually a fully formed person here with a little thing. The struggle, though. It's still the Big Bang Theory thing. It's still punching down at geeks. And it's still, like, for me, in this one, because you see Mary Jane love him so fully,

what is there to love? I love the character of Mary Jane too much for her to actually be such a weak-willed character to love that guy. Like, why would she leave an astronaut for that guy? But, like, what's he, what does he do? Like, the first movie I kind of understood, like, the, because he was always kind of, he was kind of her. He was looking out for her. He was always He was charming in his own way. Charming in his own way. But in this one, he's just so detached. He's stringing her along.

But I do understand that, and I will make it very clear, the dilemma that he's got. I like the dilemma of how do you balance your life when you're trying to show over when you're normal when you're a Spider-Man? Right. And it's like, and you're not just, it's not like the MCU when you're involved in the big Thanos angles.

You're just trying to stop dudes from Robin Banks. Yeah. Or Robin, whatever it is. Like, so even that scene, which I do like, It's such a like premonition of what we're about to get in Spider-Man 3 with the rain drops keep pulling. Like when it's strut down the street,

I was like, it's coming. Because when you get that music, Sam Remy loves to do that music video and everything's cool now. And he's still, but he's got the hot dog in his mouth. And I like this moment when he looks over and he sees the robbery happening.

And he's like, nope, just going to do my thing. I like that angle. I didn't, I thought that there's tons of really good moments. I walked in. on you when you had just got to the part where the dude is in the alley back, help. And he's like getting his ass whoops. And you have the camera and go where you kind of see Toby in the foreground and you see this dude getting just completely mollywopped. Yeah. Cuts to Toby,

cuts to Toby. Cuts back to the dude. Please, anybody. And then he's just like, like people die because of Toby in this movie. And that's the thing, though, that it's like this, because that scene, though, is my biggest problem with this iteration of Spider-Man. Because this even him being Spider-Man to help is selfish. Like everything is selfish. It's not, it's like, oh, I'm doing, I'm Spider-Man now because I feel like now I can do it. So what about the guy that got his ass kicked because you weren't ready for it at that point? The only thing was the child, the child in the fire, because they take the same beat from the first one about the fire.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many literally cut and pace from the first movie. I'd forgotten how like parallel they were. That's insane. That's why I think I like the first one better because they did it. It's original. It's original. and that's why I also want people, oh, the second one is so,

is so different and so, like, game-changing. It's like, it's game-changing in a certain aspect because I agree with you guys. The villain. Well, the villain, but it also allows, because there are serious moments, and the fact that this, making it very clear,

if this movie doesn't come out in 2004 when it doesn't, do the kind of box office, it doesn't allow you to do other movies that eventually become very successful. It was groundbreaking in that aspect, and never will take away from that. And I don't take away anything that Sam Ramey did in this movie,

movie. I'll say it a thousand times over. It has nothing to do with the movie itself. I just never understand how people, yeah, it's too high. It's at such a pedestal. I don't get it. Again, just too locked in that nostalgia because the truth is the minute you hit Batman begins, all of this changes. I agree with you. Which is only four years later. Right. Wait, no, three, because, uh, wait, Dark Night was, oh, eight. Yeah, Dark Night was O eight. So that makes 06. You keep saying that. 2007 was Spider-Man, Three. We take it. I'm talking about two. Two to Two is four. It's four.

And then begins at six, isn't it? I think it was 2005. So it's a year later. It's 2005. Yeah. So we're talking like it's about to change. It changes. Look, Nolan, but when Nolan did, and we should do a rewatch of the Batman.

Oh, that's a lot of them. But we should do a rewatch of at least Nolan once. It's not as bad as you think. No? Four plus three. The four, the four, the four, you got the two Burtons, the two Schumachers, the three Nolens. That's if we don't do animated, though, because there's a lot of animated. Well, I mean, okay.

And then Adam West. What kind of animator are you talking? Are you just talking Mask of the Fantasm? Are you talking about the entire? There's three that are in the Massa of Fantasm arc. Yeah, there's also the Joker one. That's the third. That's the Batman Beyond.

So there's Sub-Zero, which is the second one after Fantasm. And then Joker, that's the three. That's the trilogy. I know. We have a while before the Batman movie comes out. We could. We could. We could.

But anyway, so that, but what Nolan did with that franchise in general. But I think that Ramey helped that, right? Because you look at what Burton did, and as much as I say, Burton makes his own movies sometimes, and it's just all, like I think that's why the second one suffered. I know people love the Batman returns, but I don't because of that problem.

But you cannot deny what Tim Burton did for superhero films in 1989. Right. He was, without that movie, you don't get a lot of these things. Well, I would make the argument that Spider, the Ramey trilogy is taking its cues from Batman Forever and Batman and Robin.

If you're being honest with you, I know how bad he did it much better. Yeah. But that same kind of. Silver Age camp. It's the Silver Age camp because you go back and look at Batman and Robin. It's like, never leave home without it. Yeah.

Yeah, but remember. And the transitions and everything. It's very reminiscent to what like George Lucas, when you look at George Lucas with the movies that he made, the Star Wars movies and the serialization, the things that he fell with, the Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon. That's all there. It's all present. It's all stuff that he grew up with that you see, right? Sam Ramey, it's the same thing. Sam Ramey came, like loves the B movie.

I mean, you look at some of the, even in that scene we're talking about with, is that there's a throw. to the Evil Dead when he's got the with the saw and everything too. So there's you're asking him not to do what he loves when he at that point he had just made this successful massive Spider-Man film just two years beforehand

and to give him all the credit in the world it usually takes about three years to do a big sequel like that especially at that time and be successful and not. He did it in two and he made a very successful film because in 2004 when this thing

comes out until like I said to this day people swear by this film and in 2004 this is a big movie money making there's nothing really to compare to and you made a great point though with the batman thing I think what changes with the Batman thing is people and the narrative of movies comic movies in general because he took it so serious Nolan that other movies started to do that and the MCU was able to do that a lot with a lot of movies there was a lot of camp in emcee movies too but there's a lot of big moments but it works yes it's You're not taking yourself, like, because doing that kind of camp becomes a farce.

To do a farce, you have to take yourself beyond seriously. Exactly. So, like, I look at Iron Man, and there are plenty of those moments for sure. But think about how grounded that movie actually is. But then you get the moments of, like, the, you know, the SUV, like slamming on and trying to get away from Warlonger and all that kind of stuff. And this is Sam Ramey, though, to cut to the driver, though,

would have pushed in on his face screaming. Like, that's the difference. It's like you know to balance that. Exactly. That's the problem. Because the same thing happens. It's the SUV, the family is screaming, but they're not staring down the lens of the camera. Exactly.

Pay attention to the scene. That's the B-movie thing I'm talking about. Yeah. And that's what I think hurts these. It's talking about it. Yeah, that's because this story, it's, we talked about it when we did the rewatch for the prequels, which people keep asking me about. Don't worry.

They come, like this airs on Friday. So the Empire 1 airs today. So you guys will be, you're good to go. But it's the same thing I talk about with the prequels, that there's just certain things in the prequels that are very cheesy, don't work, but if you look at the overall blueprint of the movie, phenomenal. The overall blueprint of this film is great. And it's just a matter of that style. If you love that style, if you keep the nostalgia, I think you'll watch this every single time and feel the same way you did about it. And then you'll be like, yeah,

this review deserved a dislike, right? Because it's inevitable to come. Of course. And I understand, I understand that because I think there's certain movies that I love that I don't want to like acknowledge that just don't hold up. And I'd be like, nah, you guys don't know what you're talking about. You say anything bad about lethal weapon. I'm coming to your house. The lethal weapon, man. I just watched that recently. So good, man. Holds up great.

I mean, for me, it's the rush hour films at all. Everybody's got one. Of course. Everybody's got a franchise that's like infallible. Yeah. And I think a lot of people feel that way about this film. Yeah. And I get it.

And it's a matter of where you saw it, how you saw it, how old you were when you saw it. It does do a lot, but what I will say about it, because we haven't done a lot of this on this episode thus far, how it's going to tie in a no way home, right? And I'll tell you, I think that there's a couple ways that you could obviously do it besides the obvious that Doc shows up. But when he's going through that experiment. Yeah, thought of that too, rewatching it. Yeah, man. Like that's how you can make that work because not only do you see the, like this whole big thing open up. Like that's when Strange and Holland could pop in at that moment

because the door opens up because whatever he's doing in that experiment. Yeah. And then the other thing is they mentioned Dr. Strange. They did. They were trying to come up with a name for Ack. But I loved when he said, it's already taken. How much did you guys think of Vibranium every time they showed that metal?

They were like, it's the rarest in the world. I was like, that would have been Vibranium in 10 years. Like they literally like had a fake metal. So there's ways to really tie this in. Yeah, I agree. I a thousand percent agree, especially that Dr. Strange thing. That, that, I was like, holy crap.

I see where they're going with this. Side note, I just wanted to look up when these movies were coming out. That 2007 was a terrible year for the end of trilogies because it wasn't just Spider-Man 3. It was Rush Hour 3. Those were two of the worst, third movies and conclusions ever. Funny, yeah. Well, I remember, I mean, and we'll get into it when we watched Spider-Man 3,

but that movie, I don't blame Ramey for that one because there was so much stuff that was going on. behind the scenes, but like, anyway, we'll get, we'll get into that. But as far as how it all ties in, you can see that working. The Elizabeth Banks angle goes nowhere. That also sucks. Like, we don't, we don't dive into that at all. Yeah, she's fantastic, too. She's really good in it.

And those moments, by the way, with Jay Jonah Jameson, are just, I laughed really loud when he said, your wife can't find a check, but he's like, thanks for that. So good. Like, J.K. Simmons is the movie. So good. He's all three of these movies. movies. And I would even say even the last, like when, when Peter does go off him in the next one, that, that shit's hilarious. Yeah. But then even like at the wedding where he's like, call the caterer,

call Mark the caterer, tell him don't over the cabin. Yes. Like I'm like, that's so authentically Jonah. It really is. It was really, really. I would say out of the Sam Rani movie, Sam Rameen movie, the thing he gets the most comic right is Jonah and the thing that fits all of the films, even while their tones are changing is J.K. Simmons. It's incredible that he works in any scene. It's incredible that he works in the MCU. It's incredible that he feels like the comic books. Like there's a, there's a beautiful art to what JK Simmons brings to Jonah Jameson. And I also want to say that another way I can tie in is the special effects and this are arguably better than a lot of the MCU. Like the fact that the practical suit looks practical. The fact that Spider-Man swinging around actually looks like someone with some weight swinging around.

All of those things make me go like, oh, this in the MCU next to Tom Holland, that's going to work. That's funny you say that because like I was watching Black Widow the other night and I said to myself, there's so much they still haven't learned and just keep overdoing the CGI stuff, right? And now I think because of everything that's gone on in the world is that because of the inflated budgets and you can't really justify because of the box office that maybe they're going to start pulling back

to practical effects more and start pulling back because that's the type of stuff like that's what's been working in the volume from Andalorian and other things too. Look at the sets in this movie. They have full-sized sets. They actually burned a building. They actually, you can feel the daily, bugle be a place you can walk through.

I can't say that about most sets in the MCU. No, it's true. I agree with that. I think that they, hopefully they go back to doing more stuff like that, and especially if they start using, like, I think the volume technology is going to start taking over in general, especially now that Disney really has a lock on it because of the Mandalorian. Imagine the Doctor Strange visuals you could have in that space.

Imagine like going through space time and changing reality. You can do the what if finale in that. I've not seen what if yet. I mean, not in general. Not in general. The last like four. So what you can do with that. alternate reality warping insanity. Can you imagine that in the volume?

Well, and it's obvious is not what this is about, but you need to watch that because you want to talk about implications for No Way Home. All of it's coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I am going to watch it. I've liked very much what I've seen inside of what if. Maybe even before Eternals, if you have time. That's good to know. Yeah, I'm going to see that soon. So, um, all right, before we get back into the Spider-Man stuff, you speak of Sam Ramey and you speak of his horror back. background. Well, there is nothing that screams horror more than Shutter. I don't know if you guys know about Shutter. If you guys have been paying attention to Shutter, if you haven't heard about it, we're very excited to be working with Shutter. Shutter is the Netflix of horror. It really is. And summer's over, guys. There's a chill in the air and spooky season. It's arrived.

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So go and check it out, Shutter, do it, and let the English see it do it. Watch some Brendan Meyer movies. Yeah, he's got a ton of them for sure. Do you know a lot of horror films? He's been in a lot of them, too. Well, I know he's in a decent amount of films. I didn't know horror was that thing. I'll tell you what's a horror.

I'll tell you what's a horror is that haircut he's got. It's impressive. It is, it is Chuckie-esque. And the only reason I think. say that Winston that way that way because we saw him at the bar in new york and everybody was like what is with it's like it's like if we shave chucky's head around the sides it's like a dutch boy kind of like and then it's blonde underneath so he's actually going for the toby mcoyer spider man three look i don't know what it is it's just gonna go full emo my chemical romance but it's not it's not flak a seagulls style

but it's like it's like devon sawa fought chuck just like an early 90s yeah early 90s like terrible haircut right And I said, no, and I'm also not, I'm also been this guy. Like, I'm never the guy. Like, if everybody's talking about somebody's bad breath or about the, the friend's got the bad breath, you like, dude, you need to brush your teeth. Or you got to, or you got to, I'll be the dick, you know, and take a mint. Yeah. Right.

And the same thing, I'm like, I'm not going to let this kick you keep walking around. Everybody keeps, everybody's shitting on his haircut. And I said to him, I go, if I offend you with this question, you can tell me, but that's got to be for a role, right? That's what I was going to ask. Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, yeah, yeah. He's been away filming.

Thankfully, that was tied to it. He goes, absolutely. This is, this is for a role. This is for, oh, yeah. I mean, I, I don't know. I would never be able to get this. And he's going into the whole thing. And I was like, okay.

And I, and I introduced them to somebody at the live event. I go, this is Brennan Meyer. Don't worry. This haircut is for a roll. And he goes, he goes, thank you. Thank you. It's that intense. It's that necessary of a disclaimer.

He does. He looks, I call him Lady Hawk. That's who he looked at Lady Hawk from, from, from, uh, from, um, the, the movie later with Matthew Broder. Well, I mean, that haircut would get him Bryce Dallas Howard, so, you know, maybe he's got to hold on to it, you know. Bryce Dallas Howard. The next movie, Felicia Hardy.

Oh. Or, no, Gwen Stacy. Gwen Stacy. Gwen Stacy. With the worst haircut in the trilogy, which is saying a lot. All right. But let's hop back. Let's hop back into the movie itself.

And then, so the train scene, obviously, the relationship. That sequence is incredible. It's a great sequence. Yeah. And it's got a lot of emotion to it. And I think that that's where we, I think, it, justifies our complaint about it. Like you have a moment like that, which is so great.

And it's so emotional. But then when you, if you coupled that with that scene, with the Bonnie scene or with the, the doctors running away from the arms and screaming, you'd be like, these are two different films. I think the moment that gets me that I'm like, what the hell? Like, is when he's then, I understand he's knocked out.

But when he's captured by Auk, he's delivered, he's delivered. to Harry, and Harry pulls the mask up, and he falls back, right? And then Peter wakes up, he goes, oh, just like immediately, like it literally was not, like he was like he wrapped him with styrofo.

Right, right. Like, I just, I get that Spider-Man strong up, but it's like barbed wire and crap. Like, there's no, like, there's nothing. He doesn't have strong skin. Well, that was the same issue

that I had with the first movie was that Willem Defoe takes him up on the roof. Yeah. He's got him. They just keep his mask up. And it's the same beat. It's the same beat. And my thing is the,

the third. act here works better than the third act in the first one. So it gives it slight elevation. And the, the Mary Jane stuff works better than this one than the first one, except the kiss. The kiss is iconic for all of the comic culture. I agree with that.

I think, I, but the coffee shop scene is brilliant. It is. Like them sitting talking to car flying in, that's so Spider-Man comics in the 16th. Yes, but even though it does play into the fact that we still don't understand exactly

why she's got the same infatuation for him. Yeah, that doesn't track. But that doesn't make sense? The other thing that doesn't make sense that how does nobody immediately figure this out? First of all, if you're going to capture Peter Parker,

Why are you throwing a car at it? And then he's hiding under the rocks and then he just bursts out for some reason. Oops, what dropped? Oh, okay. It's like, first of all, if you're Doc Ock, why are you throwing a car at the dude you're trying to kidnap to find out where Spider-Man is?

If you kill Peter Parker, you don't know where Spider-Man is. So first of all, that doesn't make sense. Second of all, the fact that he grabs her rolls her under the flip and then flip, and she doesn't immediately go, how the hell did you do that? Right, right. You didn't even see it.

You fall upstairs. But that happens throughout the movie, right? No, I'm with you. So, like, he's going to get the robbers, and he's on his bike, and he has a space and he flips over and lands. And the kids go, how did you do that? Well, this is a moment for funny humor. My vegetables. Eat your vegetables.

Oh, she's been telling me that. Fine, the kids get it. What about the other 2,000 people on the street? In New York City. Even in a pandemic, people would have saw that. The kids, I'll give you. The kids, the kids, the kids I'll give you. We're playing that no Twitter card pretty hard.

mentioned this guy flipping into the sky. Yeah. So it's like, but this is the question that kind of lends into it. Were we a lot more forgiving to the superhero tropes back then? Because there weren't a lot of superhero movies back then. They were a bunch, but not like there are today. I think, I think that's why Marvel isn't doing such identities. Because secret identities don't work.

Everyone in the MCU is exposed. Like Iron Man revealed who he was in the first film. Secret identities don't work inherently because Twitter, because we look at the world. And back in the early 2000s, they had the concept of secret identities that I think we've kind of given up on. Right. I'm really curious how the Batman handles it because it's in the modern day of acknowledging, like, wait, that guy's chin looks like Batman.

Right. It would happen, but I think the problem is since you're writing this and you know all those types of things, you cannot have that happen in a big area. You have to think about that, like you said. If it's just the little kids that were there, maybe they were playing ball in an alley and they see him. Right. That's different. That's different.

That's one thing. Not Fifth Avenue. Fifth Avenue. watch him do a flip off of a mob head land like he didn't get hurt because he were going 40 miles per hour. That doesn't make sense. And it's not like the siren. Like it's literally attention, attention, attention. There's sirens.

There's a chase. Everyone will be watching it. Even in New York, everyone's watching a chase. Right. But that's what I mean, though. Like back then, on set of someone says that to Sam Ramey, they'll get over it. I don't think that flies today. No, I agree.

And that's why I'm curious when he does Dr. Strange. Like, I don't think, that's why I know you were a little nervous about him doing it. I don't think we're going to get. I think that because. in 2004 the approach that's why I give Sam Ramey a lot of credit in the fact that I don't think Sam Ramey is going to be like Tim Burton where it's just like no this is how I make movies that's it yeah I think you'll see a bit of it I think you'll see some of the extreme kind of close-ups and those types of things but I think that because of 2003 when they shot this movie um very

different and he's coming off of that massive movie that he made already so he had kind of the car launch he essentially was Nolan at that point because he's Because it wasn't supposed to be Spider-Man. It was supposed to be Star Wars. Star Wars was supposed to be talking to the town. And it was supposed to be Matrix was supposed to be talking to the town. And it wasn't after the sequels. It was still Spider-Man.

Spider-Man was, Spider-Man was coming off of this sequel. So he was the guy. So when you are the guy, you can say, yeah, I'm going to do my shots. I'm going to do my horror movie because it doesn't tie into anything else. It doesn't connect into any other universes. 17 years later, you're a director of an episode of TV versus the movie. You're in the middle of a series. But for him, he's not, this is just a San Ramey movie.

So I can make Sam Ramey's Spider-Man in 2003. You can't make Sam Ramey's Dr. Strange today because it's not part of it. That's fair. You can absolutely do the tropes. You can do the things that you did and not change a damn thing and make that movie in 2004 and have people love it for what it is. But you cannot in 2021 have people who watch these movies all the time and not say, how did they not notice him flipping over the cat?

What they might do is make it all the extreme Sam Ramey stuff. Because if they're making Dr. Strange jen's, as weird and connected and otherworldly. They might just have it like all cranked up to 11 so that big push-ins feel normal because you're like, oh, you're experiencing this nightmare reality. I would even venture a guess that then he goes away maybe from the B-movie camp

and goes actual full thrilling horror in that room. Right, which he can do great. Right. Because that's what they were going to do with Derrickson. But then Derekson said they didn't want to do that, though. But I think that that's probably why they got Ramee because they were probably like, look, we're already thinking about doing Spider-Man,

like letting all these Spider-Men coming up. Dragman Hell Ramey, not the Evil Dead Ramey. Right. I think that that's exactly what happened is I think they probably pitched it to him. Like, look, we know that that's kind of what you've wanted to do anyway. Yeah. We know that that's what you're really good at. So not only would you probably have a say, because you know with Infinity War and Endgame,

what I thought was so brilliant, they had this almost like a Justice League of Directors where the directors from each of the franchises would all sit with the Rousseau's and together. Right. So like you would have Peyton Reed whenever any Ant Man character, he would be on set and would partially direct to make sure that. Well, it's the same point that we made last week. That's a balance of tones that this doesn't have. Right.

Right. But the same tone, the same thing that I'll bring up, and probably bring it up at every episode so people are aware, the difference is that, and they always bring up Edgar Wright. Yeah. When Edgar Wright came on to Ant Man, as we said last week, he was, this is before the MCU. Yeah.

So he was signed on. So once the MCU became the MCU and they're like, okay, we want you to make an MCU movie. He's like, that's not what I sign on to. Right. It's the same thing that if Sam Rameymy was signed on for Spider-Man too, And then Marvel came and said, well, now we want you to do an MCU. He's like, well, that's not what I signed on for.

Right. However, the MCU has been established now. So when Sam Ramey signed on this time, it was the MCU. That's fair. So they're going to have those meetings with him and go, look, we want to do this. We want you because you're Sam Ramey. Right. But can you do this for us?

It needs to hit these beats. It needs to end here. It needs to feature this. And I think it's going to be special. I think it's going to be good. I just, you know, rewatching these movies. There's obviously a little trepidation. Isn't it weird, though, that I thought about this, too,

that they how much of a splash would it have made if sam ramy would have come back to direct the third spider-man this thing it would have been dope but it's the same director from the first two right i think i think i get why i understand why i think they started off in phase one being kind of like hey we'll we'll kind of mix yeah no it makes sense but they from then they've been like whatever director gets this this is their that's their franchise yeah yeah i but how insane is it going to be if dr strange two ends with Spider-Man 4. His Spider-Man 4. Right. I mean, well, what if... That's what you keep saying. I don't know if they're going to be

ballsy enough to do that. I mean, they'd make some swings. I don't think the MCU will. I think Sony would. No, no, it won't be a Marvel film. It'll be a Sony needs more franchises. And because... And because they set up the multiverse that people... How insane... We get... I'm not saying this is happening. How insane would be if we get a Spider-Man 3, a Godfiel 3, a Toby 4, and a Spider-Verse 2?

When you said Garfield 3, Bill Murray's Garfield 3. Odie, Odie. But we could do it. that. We can have a shared universe. And if you're no way home as the title, I guarantee, almost guarantee, 90% guarantee Tom's going to get stuck in Sony. I think Tom leaves the MCU with this film. I think he has, come back? Yeah, I think he has no way home. No, the only reason why I disagree with that is the fact that very clearly with Strange being involved

and everything else, I think it's one of those situations where you've just merged worlds. I don't want to spoiler anything for certain things that are out, but we've had enough clues in certain movies that have happened. that all you're going to do is you've opened up the sandbox where Sony now their sandbox is actually connected to the MCU one, but they're going to play in their own little area, which lets stuff free flow. I'm wondering if it separates at some point. I wonder.

The title just makes me think some things. It could be. We'll see. I like not knowing it's more exciting. Before we move on, obviously, Corey Janjoo is the least out of shape out of the three of us here in the room. And that is because he does not use FitBod, but he should.

Ooh, a Fit sponsor. Yeah, dude, yeah, honestly, have you heard of FitBuy? No. Okay, well, this is- Strap in. This is right. You think you were jealous because you didn't get the butcher box. No, listen to this.

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pacing and intensity based on where you are and where you want to be. So there's a lot of great stuff with this app in general. You can pick workouts tailored to your equipment and your goals. The app has very clear and easy to follow instructions. It's great to balance muscle groups and you can recover really, really fast for the next workout. I already from using this thing, I was in New York and it's like right away, if I ate something bad popped up on my app and it was. something like, look, this is what you need to do, this is and this,

you work it off, I feel stronger and faster, and thank you to the personalized training on the side of the app in general. FitBod creates a program based on your unique body experience and your environment, whether you're exercising three days a week or twice a day. Every workout is scientifically proven to be better than the last. FitBod's workouts are balanced to avoid overworking muscles with varied exercises to keep you sharp. It's very easy to use and even has HD video tutorials to make learning, new exercises, a breeze. Personalized training can be tough on the budget, but FitBod is only $9.99 a month,

or it's $59,000 a year. Sign up now and you're going to get 25% off of your membership. Now, pick up the pace on your fitness journey with FitBod today and your future self will thank you. Get 25% off your membership at FitBod.com.com.com.com.com.com.com.com. 75% off that's like that's huge really good so a lot of these I mean I've been very very excited with the with who we've been involved with and like as you guys know we won't get involved with anybody that we don't feel this yeah which I respect I don't touch some sure no you can't and in order to really um we that's why when this when they had mentioned FitBody you do the research on it you listen to the conversations and I was like and I always get messages about people who are listened as we've been like when I was doing the doing the Oculus and losing weight people would start trying to And then they listen to you because you believe in it. So you believe in FitPot and check it out. You've been doing workouts on Oculus. Did you not know that?

No, boxing and Oculus is incredible. It's not just boxing, but it's like, there's this other program that I have on the Oculus that it's just like you're working with trainers. And it's like, the only thing about that I live in the future.

But like, like, I remember using the Oculus for, the boss I used to have and whatnot. And I just, that thing is like heavy on your head. How are you like, did they have,

I mean, it was, that was like one of the first ones that came out. Oh, yeah, they've got like 10 times lighter, dude. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty good.

And you just do, it's, this is the program I use is like, is different from, um, it's, it's, it's beat saber, but different. Okay. Yeah. But anyway. I one scene, speaking of fitness, one scene I really liked in this one is a call to the world, uh, of reality of Tobin McGuire, the scene where he fell and he gets up and goes, my back, because he almost didn't play Spider-Man.

Oh, my back. Because the C-Biscuit injury is, oh, do you know, that's what that, that, that, that joke was. So he got wicked hurt on C-Biscuit, and then Jake Gyllenhaal was going to take over and play Spider-Man going forward and literally had like gotten in the suit. And then Toby was like,

actually I'm fine. I'll do it. And so that back joke. But they should have definitely done my neck and my back. That was the time. That's what, and RIP to him, by the way, he just passed away.

Yeah. Wait, who did. The actor who, from that, from Friday. Oh, yes, yes. Okay, you were going on Friday. I thought you were going to Lodicrous. Ludacris is okay.

No, no. No, no, no, no, no, I'm going from Friday. My neck. Yes, my back. My neck and my back. Yeah, no, I agree. That, fuck. Yeah.

There's my last one. No, you went over your last one a long time. So, I think, I mean, there's a lot, anything else that we're missing here from the majority of the beats. I mean, it's, I love the costume. I love how tangible it feels. I love seeing him swinging that, that's special. I think that's you. It's my least favorite of the costume.

Really? Yeah. Because you can touch it. Yeah, I like the costume. No. No. I know. that I know that I think since we've come

four, I'm just that person that like same thing even looking at like houses, I'm like that, you know, that real modern clean look. Oh yeah, yeah. It's kind of what you get from the next two. Got it. So like looking at back at it, it looks old school. I like craftsman, man. I don't, I don't. It's a beautiful thing. But I do even like that scene though when he's just like, you know, we're, even though I think that the

scene itself in the, in the elevator is unnecessary. It gets itchy. When he gets, but no, when he says to him, he's like, how'd you get? He's like, I made it. Yeah. Like, it's like that part I do, I do. And when it gets demolished, it looks authentically demolished. It's not like when superheroes suits gets demolished. They're like, soup.

Like, we got to ignore the ripout moment, but later. I agree with that. I'm just laughing because there's a moment. I can't remember what specifically it was. But like, obviously, all of these actors have to get super in shape for the film, right? There's very clearly a moment where a dude lands, a stunt guy, because his arms are like the size of Arnold's. gigantic. And I'm like,

that's not Toby. That's not Toby. But that's what happens if you have a real suit. Yeah. Which I like. I'd rather have that than like everything.

CGI and he always looks a little too opaque. There's something strange about a CGI Spider-Man that I really dug in this. I really liked Mary Jane feeling more like Mary Jane in this one,

regardless of the relationship. I liked Alfred Molina. Like I feel like the Alphanila is like an unsaid. But I think overall, it does improve on the same beats of the first one, but the fact that it's the same beats of the first one is a hurt.

What do we think about the Conner's relationship in here, too. I love Dylan Baker's Kirk Conner. Because it was set up. Was he in the third one? Yeah, but he never got to be... That was the crappy part. They set it up, and then he just...

It should have been Sandman Lizard. Instead, it was Sandman Venom. And then everyone wanted more and more venom, so it just took away from the Sandman and no lizard. Let's do it in the fourth one, and there was never a fourth one, right? Yeah, and the fourth one was going to be Vulture and Hathaway's Black Cat, with Ann Hathway's Black Cat and Malkovich's Vulture. Is that what it was?

It was cast. It was done. It was happening. Well, yeah, I remember that. I remember how, and not those particular roles, but I remember, like, it was, that was a done, that movie was done. It was supposed to come out in, like, 2010.

They hit release date and everything. Yeah, it was 2010. I think it was 2010. It was like three years or two, three years. And then it was one year later, Amazing Spider-Man. It literally was like, we replaced you and then we pushed. 2011, that's why, because they lost the rights. They were going to lose the rights to them.

And that's why they immediately grabbed this egg year. Because I think it was within 12 months of the date. That's exactly right. They lose it. So that was a speed round. That's why they went to the cast and got it because people didn't understand. Why are they making another one? because they're going to lose a property.

And then 2011, ironically, she played Catwoman as a black cat. Yeah, right. I thought she's a good cat woman. I liked her to cat woman. But it's funny that she in 2010 was supposed to be in the other universes. Yeah, right, right.

Hey, you know, also you put Steph Sabreau there. That was, that was fun. Great Catwoman. That was a solid Catwoman. I had no idea, but that was hilarious. I'd watch that movie. Steph Sabraaw as Catwoman. Yeah, I'm into that.

You got to make her sing, though. You got to have a time for Selena to sing. You sing like a screeching cat. That's that she got cast. She knows. That's, that's her own admission. I feel like that's becoming, like, obviously her main brand is like FCL and World Girls. And singing, bad singing.

But then bad singing is like, why do you think I put Chuckie there? Because that's where she sits and now maybe she'll stop doing that. That's curse up. Well, you shut up. Oh, the other thing I didn't do, I wanted to show that. It's just the whole, the whole reason. There you go. Finally.

Perfect. Oh, hey. Spider-Man rewatch. Nice. And that was it. Spider-Man 2. The rewatch, for those people who are joining us today, first of all, thank you for joining us today.

But the other thing is that we're going to be doing all of the Spider-Man movies. Next week is Spider-Man. Brace yourself. And then we're going to get into Amazing Spider-Man. Amazing Spider-Man 2. Brace yourself. And then the first two Tom Holland movies, and we're going to wrap it up with the Into the Spider-Verse,

which is... Oh, you're going to use that as the last one. Oh, yeah. Okay. Because I think it plays really well for the fact that the multiverse... It'll tie in the already. How it's going to tie in. That makes sense.

And then that leads us right into No Way Home. and then we'll obviously we'll do, the three of us will do it probably a spoiler heavy yeah, no way home once it comes out and that's how we'll wrap it up but there's a retrospective of everything we've gone through yeah and see what we were right about

what we were probably all wrong about all of that so and then listen I'm going to be very clear about this I know how much you guys love this movie I get it and please go ahead and have your discussions and talk about what you think holds up what doesn't hold up do you think we're out of our minds

there was something that I saw a comment that I really liked was said like I really enjoy listening to how wrong you guys are. That's why we're here. But I liked that comment because it wasn't somebody being disrespectful. It was just somebody going, I don't agree with it. Yeah, I love that. I like that.

And I think we should preface the next episode with these first two movies are exceptional movies. So we've looked at the flaws. They are overall good. So we've looked at the things that don't work. Like in my experience, this is an A minus. So I was looking at what made it not an A plus or an A. That being said, don't be surprised when we go into Spider-Man through trying to find the positives. So if you come at us with like, why are they talking so good about Spider-Man 3 when they didn't about Spider-Man 2?

It's because it's known as the greatest Spider-Man movie. So we had to look at that. Spider-Man 3 is known as the worst. So if we seem to be more positive about Spider-Man 3, we're not on drugs. It's that we're looking at being positive. I think you're being too positive thinking we're going to be positive on Spiderman. I'm trying, man. Sandman's great.

I'll tell you. I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it as I saw it in the theater. I only saw it for the first time, like, fully. Yeah. About like four or five years ago. I had randomly seen scenes here and there. You didn't hate it as much as you thought.

Because everybody was like, this movie sucks. I just remember everybody crying. I remember everybody cries. So crying in the way that South Park, how the kids cried when the new indie came out, they were like, they did it, they ruined you. No, I just remember, no, I remember in the movie. Everyone's crying.

I remember James Franco crying. I remember Toby McGuire crying. No, I mean. That's just inside. I just remember everybody crying. I just remember that for me, Again, I think Franco is the one that walks away with this third one, and especially with the,

and Sandman, the story there with the kid and everything, too, I think is good. I got to watch. I don't remember it at all. The fact that Franco became a damn meme with the wink, bro. Like, eating the whink the pie. Disappears. Like, I mean. I love that seed, but it's not a good seed.

Oh, yeah. He gets it. But he's in it. He knows exactly what he's doing. That's why it's a meme. That is next week. This week, obviously, was Spider-Man 2. please go ahead and comment

tell us exactly what you thought of the movie what you like about the rewatch. Don't forget today at 4 p.m. We have the rewatch of Empire Strikes Back finally. Sorry about the two-week hiatus because we were in New York and I forgot to hit a record button last time. So

anyway, thank you guys so much for joining us. Thank you to Winston A. Marshall. Thank you to Koizier, Andrew. Thank you to you guys for watching us. That is the big thing. Really appreciate you guys joining us here today. Don't forget to find us every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday on this channel. Thank you, and we'll see you on the flip side.

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