The Kristian Harloff Show - WAKANDA FOREVER Spoiler Discussion| Marvel | MCU | Big Thing | Capes and Cowls

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

Marvel has released Black Panther: Wakanda Forver in theaters. As expected, it is doing well. It seems like the audience is on board, there are critiques that we will explore in this SPOILER HEAVY episode of The Big Thing, Capes and Cowls edition. Was recasting something that should have been explored? Do the story points work? How did certain elements play? We discuss that and more on the show! Enjoy! #wakandaforever #blackpanther2 #blackpanther #marvel OUR MERCH STORE IS LIVE: https://www.teepublic.com/stores/the-big-thing-kh-channel?ref_id=27393 ATHLETIC GREENS: http://www.athleticgreens.com/BIGTHING RUMPL: Now through 11/28 save 25 percent off at rumpl.com/bigthing use the code BIGTHING to get an EXTRA GIFT with purchase. UNCOMMON GOODS: 15 percent off your next gift go to Uncommongoods.com/BIGTHING for 15 PERCENT OFF! AMAZON WISHLIST: https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/1KPH42T0TP0PG?ref=cm_sw_em_r_un_un_djbxgIW5ZQMMg PATREON: http://www.patreon.com/thebigthingshow SCHMOEDOWN ARCHIVE CHANNEL: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheMovieTriviaSchmoedownArchives Ask Kristian questions for next time! https://facebook.com/harloff Become a Patreon of the Schmoedown: http://patreon.com/schmoedown OTHER GREAT CONTENT: REVIEWS https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSJdE28YyUT368qY7sfE0nKE4c04CqGvu TV REVIEWS https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSJdE28YyUT1LU-t2Z9AD5UJDiWW4pS_E STAR WARS SHOW https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSJdE28YyUT0XmfpbblkF9PY7uO2qhbN6 THE BIG THING PODCAST https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSJdE28YyUT3KAwbzDsv6mdR-gwUiydQg FOLLOW KRISTIAN + FIND HIM ON CAMEO https://cameo.com/kristianharloff https://twitter.com/kristianharloff https://facebook.com/harloff https://instagram.com/kristianharloff Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Happy celebrating. Hey, happy Monday, everybody. So I'm hoping everybody saw Black Panther Wakanda forever. Otherwise, you can get spoiled pretty heavy because that's what today's episode is. It's a special, as you see, the Capes and Cals logo. This is a special big thing, Capes and Cows episode on Monday. I got the crew here. I got both Winston and Coy as we're going to dive deep into the sequel to Black Panther.

It is Black Panther Wakanda Forever. Director Ryan Cooleur returns. in this MCU continuation. So we're excited about it, decided to talk about it. And we're also excited because as you see in the bottom there, man, Carbon Health. They sponsored this episode and we love Carbon Health.

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They've been a great partner. We're very supportive in what they're doing and what they're doing, and what their mission is, and we're big fans, and we're excited to be working with Carbon Health. So make sure you check out Carbon Health in the description. Also, make sure that you're getting yourself one of those shirts, man. You can get a Big Thing shirt, you can get capes and cows, you can get Siff Council, all of them.

Make sure you get them there. If you haven't joined Patreon, patreon.com slash the Big Thing Show. A lot of fun stuff over there. We did a rewatch of the original Black Panther, myself, Winston, and Coy. You can find that now. We have Q&As. I do my one-on-ones with people.

I'm doing a podcast with somebody, a patron, which is really exciting as well, too. So all that and more, everybody. It is the Black Panther, Waconda Forever. Let's do it, everybody. It's the spoiler. Welcome back, everybody. Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, the latest in the MCU, the 77th film. This year.

This is this year. So we'll be talking about this. length. We haven't actually really discussed, to be honest. I mean, I saw it with Winston, so I'm pretty confident I have an idea of what he thought about the film overall. And we've talked a little bit about story points and stuff too, but not a full deep dive. But Coy, I haven't talked to about it at all. So I'm pumped to do so. And once again, we have Coy John Droh here, Winston A. Marshall. Where the whites, baby, and wear the Wakanda whites. Winston had a great moment. Winston had a great moment.

That no one was talking about yet because I was one of those few people to witness it. So we were at the screening, and the credits are about the start. And as they were, you know, it's quiet, dead silent. And Winston, in a pure Wakanda accent, Wakanda forever! The place goes nuts. Oh, it was great. It was great timing. Because sometimes I don't like when people yell in theaters when they don't get a reaction.

and it's like, shut up, stupid. I forgot I did that, actually. It felt it out. It was good timing. It was right before it started, because you know the beginning is like so heavy. It was right before it started. And so the timing of it worked well,

and the place erupted in applause. So it was before the credits, not closing credits. It wasn't. No, no, no, no. It was right as the movie was starting. Great. And it was, and it really worked. It got people in the mood because, like I said,

there's sometimes that people screamed to try to get it. His reasoning behind it was, exactly the response that he got. So it was a warranted response. But anyway, so I will tell you this as I will start, and then I want to throw it to my colleagues here. I like this movie a lot. And one of the reasons I like this movie a lot is because it,

as we've been talking about it, whether it be She-Hulk or Thor Love and Thunder or a lot of these movies, I think they've kind of lost their way. And I really, and I know a lot of people like the ending of She-Hulk. I hated that major peek behind the curtain because I think it takes a away from the fantasy of this world and thinking that everything's real. Black Panther, Wakanda Forever, puts you right back there. It is that thing that I fell in love with with the Marvel Cinematic Unit is that tone and that feel. And there would be so many points that we talk about inside of this.

But my things that I loved were the constant theme of loss that is continuous, that has been consistent all in Phase 4, even in movies like Thor, Thor, Love, and Thunder. That is there. The performances, I think that both the cast and the characters in real life really built on each other and relied on each other to tell a story. There was emotion when the humor was there. It worked well. It was earned. There's so many different other positives that I have.

My negatives that I want to get your responses on, obviously. My negatives were it's too long. It's about 15 minutes too long. And one of the reasons I think that is, there's two things. And again, spoiler right now that I can actually say. say it was being a little cryptic in my non-spoiler. As much as I understand where they're going with Ironheart, I thought it was unnecessary. I thought it was completely unnecessary.

I get the mentor stuff. I get it. I understand it. But to me, it felt like, hey, this is our new show we're going to be promoting. Here's this whole thing that we need to be doing with Shuri right now and building up when she's on screen and the loss and everything, it works great. And her relationship with Akoye is a great, great dynamic. And I wish we would have had a little bit more of that.

I think the idea that Ironheart's flying around in the suit at the end, that that easy was a little, I don't know, Martin Freeman, which you're going to bring up as well too. I like that he's in the movie, obviously, from the first one. But again, his story also seemed like they were just trying to build, build things up, and it almost seemed a little unnecessary. I thought Winston Duke was pushed to the side. I loved him. I loved him in the movie. But I felt like the character of Mbaku should have had a lot more to do. He had such a big arc in that first movie with Tachala and everything.

and I felt like he was just pushed to the side for like comic relief, like banging on sticks and stuff too. And I'm like, he's so good, he's so charismatic. I wanted more of him. But that's a whole mix of soup. Yeah. There's a lot of good and just a little bad. But Winston, let me start with you.

Anything, any retorts or any, and before even retorts, more so like your overall thoughts. I genuinely really, really enjoyed this movie. Um, someone asked me after the premiere if I liked it more than the first and I wasn't able to put into words how I felt. I saw it again, uh, last Monday, uh, for the, the screenings that we have, saw Koi there. Um, and so I got more perspective to having a second viewing with it and I was able to really digest everything and kind of figure all that out. Um, I, I, I like the first one more, uh, but I do love this movie. I disagree, and we've talked about this about Iron Heart,

and the reason why is because Shuri had to switch and then essentially take the role of Tachala of being kind of the main focus of everything, then all of a sudden Riri takes the position that Shuri had where she's the younger sister, where there is like this kind of mentorship, where she's the fresh mind. It's not that Shuri isn't still brilliant, she is,

but the fresh idea is there's multiple times where Riri is the one that is able to come up with something. And Shri goes, I didn't even think about that. And then they kind of go from there. So I thought that that was a key element because one of the major things that really was so strong in that first one and why this was so painful and it worked, that relationship between Tachala and Shuri, that brother and sister relationship, that mentorship, that companionship, you saw a lot of that stuff mirroring, which was really interesting. And I also love that Ryan does his homework.

a lot of those shots with Riri did mirror shots from the OG Ironman. So like, oh shit, she's got an Iron Man suit. Like the fact that like, and it looks very similar to the old one that he had in that first cave. The fact that like instead of the icing problem, she had an oxygen problem,

something that she had to solve, stuff like that. It was very interesting that Ryan paid homage to those moments with Riri. For me, it's fully Martin Freeman's storyline. He needs to be in the movie because of what he was in the first Black Panther. But the storyline they went with him,

I know that with the Valentina, you're kind of building more and more. But to me, that felt like that. We're trying to sell you something already because the fact that she's a director of something, you could have done that with the one scene and been done with it, and yet we went on and on and on with this.

And that was where I think you trimmed the fat. So I personally, I'm actually surprised you didn't like the runtime. I like the runtime. because it reminded me of Eternals where as a movie, I wasn't watching a movie I was experiencing. Like I leaned back and it washed over me. And I really, it took me, uh, the,

Greg Elba, he's like, I don't want to tell you anything that'll affect you. I don't want to give you a single spoiler. What I want to do is tell you how to watch this. And I was like, what does that mean? He's like, I want you to as soon as you sit down, not try to pick it apart, not try to like find stuff. I want you to let it wash over you. And that helped me so much with its experience as,

as a piece of art versus me being like, you know, comic, comic, comic. So it was nice. And I think the runtime allowed for more of that. I think if it was shorter, there were moments that I wanted more of. There were moments that I felt like they were having a really dramatic moment. Like, we had to get back to the fight. Or like, you know, we're having a fight. We've got to go to the other fight.

Between the two of you with the Ironheart. And I feel like those are the two main things, you guys. My negative, I'm going to get to in a second when I want to address those two. I personally felt like the Martin Freeman, that to me, helped me feel like the global scope of we now know about Wakanda. We need the Americans to be like, let's take advantage as soon as we can. And if we didn't have him as a good guy watching the Wakandans backs, I don't think it would have worked for where we go with the relationships.

It would have just felt like a war is looming too soon. And I think that like without Martin Freeman as like, they saved my life. If it was just a scene or two, it would have been like that feels undercooked. Whereas I feel like you need a full subplot. That way you've got the looming threat of invasion. I agree with that.

But I think what Winston's also saying is that maybe the story with him should have been different. Right. If that's the case. I know that and that's also easier to say, especially now that they want to use that from what we know for going into potentially the Wakana TV series. I think that if the Wakana TV series, and it's kind of like basically contradicting my other point with the Ironheart thing. But I think that if the series is indeed the battle between. between the U.S. and Rekonda as far as what they're trying to do, then I understand that storyline because it's building up to the show.

It's keeping it about, yeah. It still means that they used now two storylines to further future projects as opposed to just focusing in. Right. Because I think the more important, and you did have, and you did have two separate stories because you had the story of Shuri and trying to come into, you had, I mean, you had more than two. You had Akoye, who is, and what's,

and let's the Pliadipid Niyangos character. Nikia. Nakia, who comes back in the way that they, They introduced her the understanding and the question of, well, where was she during the blip? And the understanding why, because she had Tchalas' son and all of that. And that made a lot of sense to me. So all of those stories, focus on those.

And then we're not even talking about the fact that one of the main stories, the main story, well, one of the main stories, Namor, with his whole story, the way that they built. So that's my flaw. It's my negative. Interesting. My thing is that this is a time where I think that the Namor they used in the movie, is exactly what the movie needed

and is exactly the right character for the movie and the story told but at no point did I feel like that was Namor. Interesting because I agree with you he is not obviously because they took certain liberties he is not the name more of the comics but I have always hated Namor in the comics.

That's the point of Namor. No no, but see that's the thing though. He's charming. This dude is like Sue Storm sleeps with this guy and you're like, that makes sense. No, no, no, but but what they did which I thought was brilliant is they made Namor very similar to a killmonger in that it was like,

I understand why you're trying to burn it all down. 100%. And I bought that. I don't. The thing about Namor is you're reluctant to like him because he's such an ass, but he's right. This guy's just right a lot of the time. Like at no point was he condescending, as no point was he arrogant. The first one of you.

He was very arrogant. He was very arrogant. He was confident. But I didn't ever felt he was arrogant. No. I mean, I'm arrogant. When he walks in. to, and he starts to, and when I'm talking

Angela Bassett, it should be... Oh my God, that Oscar, she should be nominated for her. Yeah, yeah, we haven't got to the good yet. Yeah, yeah, but when he walks up to her and he's the space of, oh yeah, yeah, so you're going to do this for us. It means about as cocky and arrogant as you get. But at no point did I feel like he made anything that was self-serving. It was always for his

kingdom, and you always, I think you need to to judge if Namor is choosing for himself for his kingdom. But you're talking about two different things. There's arrogant and there's selfish. Fair. Now, but at no point did I feel like he wasn't being a good king. Again, you can be a good king and still be arrogant. Sure, sure.

So he, I think he was a good king. I think he, for, I don't think his approach was maybe the best for his people. I think he could have probably gotten to where he was at the end had he done a little bit more talking. But he was just straight up hospitable. Like he was like a good host. He showed her around. Like that's not name-less. But he's, okay, that I can't argue with because I don't know.

I'm just saying from the points that you're making that he did show a lot of those qualities as far as arrogance, as far as those types of things. But he was looking out for his people. He wasn't, if the character was in the comics is selfish. Yeah, the character is almost an anti-hero. And it's more about himself than I didn't feel that for this character. But again, I wasn't comparing anything. I just got off what I got off of straight. So on top of that, though, I'm going to take, I can't believe I'm doing this,

I'm going to take a line out of Christian's book and that like, we're telling a different story. So let's, we don't always, I cannot believe I'm admitting this. We don't always have to go, well, that's how it was in the comics in the sense that, God, I want to kill myself right now. Just in the sense that you decided to tell a very different story. And what I love about it in particular, and we were talking about this outside of the theater.

Ryan does a very, and I also talk about this in my review, Ryan has a, does a very good job of taking the black experience and infusing it into his movies, Fruitville Station, you know, You know, that complicated life to like music, the music alone. Absolutely. Creed, like the idea of like your father's legacy and if your father's not around,

all that kind of stuff. Obviously the first Black Panther, the idea of Malcolm versus Martin and that idea with Tachala and Kilmonger and what colonization did and didn't do, you had, and in this particular case, not only did you show a beautiful, like, Brown society, and same thing,

what colonization did and then that kind of pushback and how, when you have systems messing you up like that, it causes you to react certain ways. It's also then the standpoint of when you're dealing with trauma and somebody else is dealing with trauma, you think you would get along and you would immediately talk, but all it takes is one misunderstanding and you immediately go to a place of you're trying to F me over too,

and then you have that horizontal oppression of black versus brown, and that's what it was. The same way you would see a black and a brown neighborhood at wars with each other, it's Wakanda versus Telopan. And it was a beautiful metaphor to do that and to go into that. It had me gripped. And I think that's why you need the Martin Freeman story as big as it was, because then if it's black versus brown,

the white people watching to see who they're going to take advantage of. Like, that's like the people like waiting to make a move. Like that's why you need that storyline to not be a one note. Like you needed the amount of it, I think. I understand that. I think what my issue was is that I didn't always feel that that's what the focus was. It felt more about we're trying to make sure that you understand that valetina is like the big, is the big bad.

Yeah, I got that more so than I think you're, than your point, to be honest. I think more so that they were looking at, because Martin Freeman is clearly there to be there for Wakanda. That's why you got Richard Schiff, though. That's why you've got the overall, you've got the French lady. Like it all felt like people waiting to take advantage.

Absolutely, where they were, and they were trying, at that point, trying to capitalize on certain things too, but I think that was more so than just, to be honest, I think it was more so than just a play. I don't think that's Ryan Kugoo. Ryan Kluke was saying.

It's just a play on the bad white people. I think it was more so that it was a play on, it was a play on that people taking advantage and power. Well, I'm saying as soon as you've got two people fighting, you've got a group waiting to see who fails. That I agree with. So,

but my opening about the con was, exactly what you said. I don't, not everything has to be like the comics. And like this is the Namor of Wakanda forever. This is the character that was the exact right character for this movie. And like I read it this movie very highly. But I don't think that Namor

will be able to, to be the Namor of the comics in any other property. Like he won't be able to be the Fantastic Four third wheel with Sue Storm and Richard. But they did, but they did confirm him as the first mutant. They did. They did do that.

And I, and I think the reason why I disagree is because you had the flirtation with Shuri. So that's the beginning of being able to see Namor. Okay, well, you know, he'd be trying to talk to the ladies and stuff like that. But Reed Richards is kind of a dick. So at this point I'll be like,

yeah, go with Namor. Like, I feel like Namor was too likable and good and righteous. What Ryan leaned into, and I appreciate that, they leaned into Namor, like, again, if it's representing a brown culture, they leaned into machismo. That is what he was doing the whole movie, and so I can see the exact same thing happening when Sue comes along where he's just like, why are you trying to do with a goofy white boy? I run a whole kingdom. Come roll with me, girl. And this guy's overthinking everything.

Yeah. And I hope I'm proven wrong by seeing Namor in another capacity and being like, okay, there that is. I just found myself being like, this doesn't feel like how I've ever perceived Namor. And again, adaptation versus translation. It was exactly correct for the movie. So it's not faulting the movie. It was just an experience. Of what you know of the character.

Exactly. For sure. So like I'm not making the movie drop a letter grade or anything because of a thing. It's just an experience I had that was like, that's how I was. You had an idea of what you hoped to see when Namor finally came about. And then it wasn't that. So it was a letdown. I think that's totally fair.

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We're all out of the ordinary. I'm telling you, man, use that link in the description. You're going to thank me because you're looking for gifts right now. I know you are. Browse on the site. You'll find something, I promise. Just click on that link in the description. You'll love it. Just leaning into also what Koi said, I didn't have any, I didn't know anything about him. I had said, oh, I guess this is the Marvel's version of Aquaman.

And I guess he came first. Yes. So I didn't even know. No, so I was like, okay, fine. I just knew that they both talked to fish. So, so either way. So I didn't know what to expect from him. I just heard a lot of great things.

Now, do I think the actor was good in the role? I do. Do I think the character was good? Do I think he was one of the most compelling characters in the MCU? No, not even in the top 15. Not even in the top. Wow. He's not at all the characters we had.

He was good. But he wasn't in the top 15 as far as he was, it wasn't anything like so groundbreaking that I'm like, oh man, I'm going to remember. this character forever, I thought that it was more about the Wakanda, Wakandans joining together. And basically I said, I like the parallel of the real world of the idea that here's this cast that was so attached to this man in Chadwick Bozeman and obviously the charisma that he had, that they had to figure out a way to make this work without him. And that's what the people of Wakanda also had to do.

and their king died. So I really thought that was great, but I will say this also, and this is no fault to any of the actors because there's a reason Chadwick Bowman was a star that he was because he had that thing. It was very clear he was missing in this movie. I can agree with you in the sense that I remember watching

the first Black Panther and thinking to myself, I was like, man, it's really a story about Tchal at all. Like, it's everyone else. It's Kilmonger, it's Shuri, it's Ubaku. I was like, this is not, he's almost playing backseat to everyone else in my mind. And then I watched this movie and I, again, very good movie and I enjoyed it. But I, all of a sudden, exactly what I thought.

I was like, oh, shit, something is kind of missing. You're missing his presence. And it, again, it doesn't make this a bad movie. If anything for me, and I was talking to Corey about this, this is actually my favorite movie of Phase 4. Yeah, I can see that. Over Spider-Man? Okay.

And my reasoning for that is that Spider-Man, each viewing afterwards, as good of a movie as it is, and it is a very good movie, it leans so heavily on the gimmick of bringing in all of the villains, bringing in all of the Spider-Men that, like, without that, a lot of it doesn't hit quite as hard for me. Sure. But I think what it is is that this is why I think the movie is, it's the same, it's funny. The reason why I think this movie is so good is because the idea that it's really an ensemble

piece. Now, the Shuri is the star of the movie, and I think she's a good actress. She doesn't have that same thing that he has. She's not, she's not, she's not a movie star. Chavrevelde was a movie star, right? Now, I'm not saying she didn't do a great job. She did a great job.

But she got, you know, it's one of those things is also, it's like when the president of the, if the, when like, and I want to say that she's Lyndon B. But you know, when Kennedy went out, he got the job and had to step in. That's what happened here. She had, he passed away. She had to take the job because that was with the story that Ryan Kluer came in. And she crushed it.

She did great. She, they wouldn't have based a movie. If Chadwick Boseman did, the movie wouldn't have been about her, right? But it was. And she did a great job. But they relied on each other. And that's what I thought. That's why I loved the movie because it didn't, it really enjoyed the movie.

Because it didn't really have, it didn't have to rely on. that one person. They bonded together, and I think that that's what made the movie special. I really love that the movie made you feel the grief of Chadwick and Chichala. I love that the movie's experience was sorrow. Like the theme of the movie, the theme of all of Phase 4 has been,

you know, rebirth and death and sorrow and all these things, but this movie made you feel those stages of grief. This movie made you as an audience member, remember how much you loved the character and the actor and the experience, along with the characters on screen. It was very immersive in its sorrow, and to the point where, like, the movie ends and you've got this weight on your chest

in a very unique way. And I think one of the ways it did that was was so unique and stunning was it would juxtapose incredibly stimulating fights and action and sound. And like even the, you know, the talking drum was almost replaced with this, this chorus, this chant that's very human. You have this human element, not an instrument, a human element that draws you in even

deeper and deeper. And then it's punctuated with pure silence. There's such beautiful use of silence. And I love that the end of the movie mirrors the opening credits where they give us that stunning Chadwick tribute and it's the wind. So like the silence of this film is in the absence. And like what is death

if not the absence of something? And when you lose your star, when you lose your franchise's center, it's the absence. So I really respect Ryan Coogler for building something that was all the stimuli of a Marvel movie,

all of the stuff, but then trusting the punctuation of silence. And he also trusted in his cast. Yeah. And in us, it's an audience. And Winston, I want to talk to you

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All right. Thank you so much. And now, Winston, as I mentioned, before we went to our wonderful sponsor, you can get the link in the description. So, Angela Bassett, we talked to Oscar here, potential Oscar, and the power that she brings in this performance. Now, I want to go back on something that I said beforehand, too, where even though I think that, and is it Leticia, right? Leticia Wright. So even though, and I want to make sure that I make this clear that I think Latisha Wright is an incredible. actress and did a really good job is that there's a certain kind of star power that not everybody has

not everybody has right and so bassett has that angel bassett has always had that andrew bassett brings a power to this role in a way that she didn't even do beforehand bro there's a reason why i'm obsessed with nine one one which is like a cheesy firefighter cop show on fox is because even with her as like a sergeant's like someone get on the horn and call me back up like she just has that thing that you cannot take your eyes off of her and her she has moments throughout the film obviously before she dies but those two monologues the one to the UN yeah and the one in the throne room to a coyet both of them are incredible both the you think we ain't got no protector but step to wakana again and see what the F happens now take your stupid ass little soldiers and then have I not given

everything right you like my my my husband my son and now My daughter's probably gone. No, you're done. And you could feel her channel. And she actually said this in her interview of variety. She said that like she really had to lean on the dialogue, dialogue coach there, or the dialect coach, because she was getting so emotional channeling how she was feeling about Chad

that she needed someone to check her because she was dropping in and out of the accent because she was just going there so, so hard. And you could tell it was the most powerful. moment in my opinion of the entire film was that throne room speech yeah yeah it absolutely it was and i think that they both did a great job in that because and i loved how we didn't have to have a quay they normally what okay fine well i'm gonna turn my back on wakana she no she she she she she she took it and that scene was why i'm excited for the wakonda show is because i now want so much more nekhia so much more of a quay and i did after black panther won but i didn't know again i i mentioned

this briefly on friday show but like this is this This did a thing that felt like it was diving deeper into the world as opposed to spreading the world out. I feel like I got more quality of the world, not quantity of the world. So now I want to see that world on a show, long form. I want to invest in Wakanda after this movie. I'm so much more curious about the culture than I already was. And I already was because of Ruthie Carter because of the production designers. I'm so curious what this movie would have been like with Kaluya because he just, he had too much going on with Nope.

that scheduling conflicted. So they just wrote him out and they obviously had the one line of like, I lost my husband. She stood up to her husband. It's like, yeah, but if she wanted to, she could go and see him right now. I'm implying he's in jail somewhere.

So like, I'm so curious because I guess that's the same thing is that Daniel apparently the whole cast was very close to Chad. And same thing, reading that interview that Leticia apparently didn't, she thought it was a bad joke. Like all of her phones were blown up with text

of people being like, I'm so sorry. She thought it was a joke. So she called Chad multiple times he didn't answer. She called Daniel and was like, yo, where's brother? Like what the F's going on? And she's like, Letitia, he's gone. So like I think the other thing that would have helped, even though he wasn't the star of the film,

I think having him there too would have added in a very unique element to the film if he could have been in. Well, yeah, that was, I mean, again, that was my, I mean, I understand where they went. I understand. I think that the decision that they made and the story that they told, I get it. As I said, it was about the cast all leaning on.

on each other and really focusing in on the women as well to have to be the power of the movie and I think it was the right choice but Danik Lua he's a star he's got that he's got no absolutely now but it doesn't mean you have to write him into the thing and you should have made the story about him I as I said that you keep the story as it was but there's just you see what I'm saying there's a difference what's what's interesting is if you if give Winston Duke enough time he hasn't done enough projects dude he's a star such a house do you understand why I said feel he was he was pushed aside a little bit I guess I guess I get that. And I guess I get the reason why, because what I just said, they wanted to focus more than women.

I wonder if there were scenes cut of him, because do you remember that article that came out that said like Winston Duke getting upgraded in Wakana forever, doing more, getting a, you know, like, I didn't feel like he's in it less. And I wonder if there was an entire more subploid. He said it in at less. He shows up at the end. Well, he's in it less than the fact that, but they set him up so well in that first movie where he's trying to take over to Chala. And Chala and him form a bond. And you think, and when he shows up later on and other things, but like he doesn't, I thought he was. going to have so I thought at one point he was going to be like Panther and the but but once you present the story sure I understand why I guess I guess the thing that was interesting for me is I understand what you're saying about him being in it less but it in my mind and actually in runtime he's in it more because if you think about he's only in the challenge he's only in when remonda runs to runs away from killmonger and then he's in the final battle to save him at the end but that's it scenes he just still scenes but in this he's throughout the council the whole time he's the one that's providing the shelter and

he's the one that's actually trying to keep Shuri from losing her mind. He becomes almost an adopt, like a cousin to her to be like. Yeah, but he's, you're not wrong. And no, he's great in the parts that he's in. Of course. And I just, I still just feel able to like to see him do more because I think that he, he doesn't, he's one of the few characters in, inside what's, he doesn't have an arc. That's the main thing.

He's got no arc in this. And you can say that he's working with her. He's a voice of reason for her in the same way that he, you know, he's kind of, he's matured in that, in that aspect. but he doesn't have an arc. Everybody else in the major players have an arc, whether it's a, even Michaela Cole does. They all have arcs.

He doesn't have an arc. That was the, that was the, I think that's why I felt like he was pushed to the side because his story. And his arc starts the last moment. Like he gets, he's about to, like,

and I can't wait for that. Like, that's one of the things I want from Black Panther three is to see if the title of king and the Black Panther title are separate for once. Like that's what I'm curious about. Because usually that's something you fight for for both. Are they going to have a king of Wakanda while Black Panther is sure. Like is that something we deal with the politics of that?

Like the geopolitical landscape of having a protector. Which would be interesting. And I think that he was sacrificed. His role was sacrificed as you see when it comes to the writing of it. Maybe, you know, because you're going to say, would it could put another 15 minutes in a three-hour movie? That's where I feel like did we have to tell the Ironheart story here. And their answer is, yes, we did because we have our Disney Plus show coming out.

But I do agree with the sister thing. I really like the sisterhood. I understand. I understand why they did it and they put it together. And inside of the writing, it made sense for it. But I just think that if you lost it, would you have lost a piece of that movie? I don't think you would have. I think that I understand why it's in there.

I agree with both your points as far as why it's in there and how it plays into the story. It doesn't feel meaningless. But it did feel like a promotion to it. And I feel like if you lost it, you still had the moment between O'Coye and Shuri that you had that sister moment where they could have formed a different thing together, then you just didn't need. I get it. I guess, I mean, part of it in that regard and you can write it differently. really became the center of the plot point in the film.

I mean, literally with her being her machine, Namor being like, I want her dead so that she can't, you know what I mean? So she kind of became that central plot. But I hear you and what you're saying in that. I think the big takeaway, I agree that I would have loved Samoram Baku. I don't know how you, without it, getting cheesy and getting too giant MCU with it, if there was a way to bring in more Michael B. Jordan,

which was a beautiful accident. It was a beautiful accident. It was shocking. I was not ready for that. I knew he was going to show up somehow for two reasons. One, he was at the premiere. That could have just been there for support, for sure. So that's why, but two, he is a good luck charm for Ryan Cooper.

Also true. He's been in every single movie. He was showing up one way or another. Now I did not think he was going to. to show up in that in that capacity. I love that. That was a beautiful. The way that they used it in the reveal was great.

And he looked like his comic appearance which made me so happy. That was the moment where I was like, okay, this is for us. Like, for comic nerds. Like that was so cool. The way that they did that was not expected. Oh, wow, that's who she sees.

Interesting because I didn't know everybody. You felt everybody in that theater going, are they going to deep fake Chadwick? Are they going to use, you said to too, was they going to use footage that maybe he shot before he passed? Like what are they going to do it? They're going to do what they did with like Carrie Fisher for... I was wondering if I was going to be Sterling.

Like as a father figure, like Sterling K. Brown comes in and like you have a figure. So the idea of this kind of, and that's why, as I say, like, because what I thought, and I'm again, again, go back on some of the stuff that I said, well, not really, because I think that, again, I think Letitia Wright had an amazing performance in this movie. So I don't take that away. I think what she did really well. I like the second half of this movie significantly more than the first because I feel like she really kind of, she powers.

She becomes that star that I'm talking about inside of it. She owns the second half of the movie. And it's that she goes to the dark side, you know, for that split second or even a little bit more than that split second. She stays there for the black panther evolution. She doesn't let it overpower her. Right. And she takes it, but she uses it. She uses that.

I would have liked to see a descent into that more throughout the movie. And Winston actually off camera made a really great point. He said one of the main reasons that she kind of teeters on it is while Angela Labassad is still around. And once Ansel Bassett gets killed off, that's when she's done. And I get that. And I think that I still would have liked to see a couple little more hints throughout it, a little bit more of the darkness to where she still kept at bay. Yeah.

It was interesting because each one of the people in her life. And she said it that the last person that truly knows me is gone as far as Ramonda when she dies. But each one of those people in her life, the advisors, like so, Ocoye, Baku, I mean, Kilmonger, even. They each represent kind of a different element. element of the, the, the, the, the, sorry, the five stages of grief. Yeah. Obviously, Kilmonger just straight up with the anger part of it.

Yeah. That's, and that's, and that is what it was brought out of her and whatnot. But like, with Mbaku, remember at first, he was like, let's just kill these fish man. Right. And then all of a sudden he was like, but I do not want war. And that was like the bargaining part. Like, let's maybe not go right head first into this. You know what I mean?

Right. And so each one of those elements, her, her mom really representing the acceptance part. So her mom tried to get her to do it before, and she couldn't. So then when she was actually gone, and literally the one thing that stopped her from eternal war between Talokan and Wakanda is thinking her mom had abandoned her, comes to her at the very last moment. And it's like, no, baby girl, show them who you are.

And that's what keeps her from fully losing it. And I thought that was just so brilliant to anchor people to the stages of grief for her. Yeah, that was a really good moment. And it's also, the other moment is the main moment that we should obviously talk about is it's weird because one of the producers said there's no post-credit scene well there is there's one post-credit and it's also I think some of the best acting in the MCU

it's a mid-post-credit scene so I don't know maybe maybe he meant additional post-credit I don't know what he was talking about but he said he said there's no post-credit scene well there is it's a mid-credit scene and it's a major scene and that's obviously the reveal because everyone was wondering are they going to recast chala or what are they going to do this was their answer on how they're going to do it

the chala has a son named tachala yeah so and we we find that And it's a really great scene again re-emphasizing that this is a really good performance by Letitia Wright because she has it's you feel it at the end there. What she does in the last 30 seconds before the credits like what she's able to do in just delivering that emotion through her face stillness. And then when we come back and her going through like the glee, the sorrow, the excitement, the embrace, the accepted. Like she does so much regarding Prince Tachala in that moment. and then that kid is just so immediately captivated. And did you know that,

did you recognize after that he was the kid in Haiti that greets Queen Romanda? No. So he's the one that greets Queen Romanda in Haiti. So he comes up and that's why there's familiar. And that's why he comes up to her familiar. And she's like, you want to see the headmaster because he'd be trained to know that way.

He's the kid that greets cream. I love, genius. So in the, but in the beginning of the movie. Yeah. Not the beginning. When he goes to get the key. Right.

Once he's kidnapped, then she's like, I'm going to go find someone that can handle this. So when she goes to Haiti for the first time, he's there. He brings her to. I didn't catch that. That's great. So that was one right.

We already met him. And then the whole story about, like, Laurent is, that's a Haitian, like, a Haitian war hero. He's, he's someone that, like, overthrew corruption. So he, when she says he's got history in his name, it's that overthrown corruption. So he's got a legacy of names plural, which I love in the legacy of the character. My favorite moment of that whole thing was when, She's going through so many ranges of emotion inside of that meeting where you could see, and it's a really brilliant piece of acting because when she goes to,

she asks the question if her mother ever met, you know, the son. And it's like she says yes. And right away, that initial question was posted if she didn't meet her, then what, then you didn't tell her about her. And that goes away immediately. Yeah. It's like, oh, she knew. Full acceptance.

And not only. exceptions, but glee that she got to me. Like the happiness she feels. Yeah, just hold your point. Before you do, we're going to come right back, ladies and I also want to tell you guys, we're very excited to be working with Rumble blankets. Oh, I love these blankets. I told you guys. I don't know if you guys remember a couple, I mean, if you were around listening to the show when Rumble was around last time, and I talked about how I take one of the Rumble blankets with me to my kid's soccer game. I do it all the time.

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watch a movie with or something. All right, so once again, thank you. Make sure you get the links in the description. And Winston, you were saying before we went to break there. Yeah, so this is the one thing that I think is going to be really, really interesting. So I'm sure both of you were aware for the last, you know, two years, there has been the recast to Chalak campaign that's been going on. We sat next to the guy who came up with it.

Exactly. Eman reviews. Shout out to the homie. So it was something that he said that was actually very interesting. There's been obviously a lot of vitriol from a number of folks. He has never been pushing that, but there's been a number of folks that were upset. They were like, the talking point has been you're going to immediately put us through trauma again because the actor died. you're just going to automatically whatever.

They're like they're already recasting, you know, Thunderbolt Ross, but like you won't do it for Tachala. And I have always said, and I felt that this was the way to go, was that you give some breathing room right now just out of respect for Chad and especially with what this cast is going through. And then in the next film, then wherever Tachala is supposed to show up, you can bring somebody else in.

To the point, you're going to get Secret Wars. Secret Wars is about bringing in incursions of all sorts. So you're going to get. cast whoever you want, and then this kid could just be a young Tachala on the Young Avengers. So it's one of those things that I can, obviously, we're recording this before Monday, but it's Monday now. I guarantee you there's going to be some backlash this weekend, this past weekend that just happened or is, whatever, you know what I mean?

But I genuinely hope that people not only see about this being a love letter from the cast to their dear brother, but that Tachala's story is not over, not only because of the son that you have now introduced, but I guarantee you they will bring in an adult Tachala because of secret wars and you're still going to be able to, I think so. I genuinely think that you will find a way to because, A, with the phase four stuff, they've already said that it's, it's this idea of grief, grief and rebirth so that all of the older heroes are passing it on to the next generation. So that Tachala will team up with the young offenders, I'm sure.

But I think you will, because you need to tell the stories that are coming, People have been asking, well, wait a minute. Yeah, Tachal in the comics is like flirted with and married Nikia in certain elements, but like what about Storm? And the X-Men are coming anyway that we're talking about it probably being around Secret Wars. Those are all the different stories that you could have where that's coming in the future. I think that your point is valid. And I think that they could do it that way if they wanted to.

But I think it goes back to the same conversation. We've had many times on this show. And that is a inside of the bubble that we live in in the geekdom bubble. Sure. On both Twitter, Instagram, whatever the hell it is, this space in general, I think that the casual fan doesn't really necessarily know about the Tachala move, the recast Tichala movement, right? Like, I think, I think it's popular.

Yes. And I think that it's, I think that it's caught on in enough to where there's enough people talking about it, and into trends and all that. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, I think that Ryan Cougler and Figey and all of them came to an agreement, that they're not going to recast this role, and this is the way that they're going to do it. To me, having Prince Tachala means they're not personally going to do a secret war as a adult Tachala. And also, I personally, and I don't know if this is the way they were

going to do it originally, but I wouldn't want Aurora to be introduced as the wife of, or the courting of, or the love interest of without her getting at least a movie or two. I don't, I don't disagree with that that she should be able to stand in her own too but i think the only difference here because we have had these conversations about like with supermen will they know who black adam is all that kind of stuff and the only difference here is i'm yes it started with nerds uh and i'm not trying to be disrespectful here at all i've called myself one this is capes and cows right it is specifically in the black community and it's getting bigger and bigger by the whole there are a lot of very upset black folks specifically black men who this meant so much.

Right. What upsets me about that is I know Ryan and that entire cast and Figey too, but specifically Ryan would never do anything to disrespect or abandon that. But there's a lot of people that are, they are mad. And to the point where if you go to almost any review, they're sitting here slamming, why are you making us go through trauma again of taking the oldest black superhero? You always recast people.

And then, and now you're just going to kill them off because, So there is, this is the only exception where I would not be surprised if that happens. That's why I'm thinking they might. It's interesting, man. I mean, it's interesting. So I'm going to go back to a point that Winston made earlier. I think that I'm up there with this and Spider-Man being. Those are my two.

Yeah, they're up there right now. And then easily, I'm glad that they got back to Forman. I can't remember what it was or if Figey said it or someone said Figey said it. And he was talking about why phase four was a little lighter because phase five and six about to get a little bit more serious. And this clearly kicks us off into a serious thing. I hope that's the case. I really do hope that's this case.

I think they experimented with it. I think they were trying to keep the grief and comedy in equal measure because there's so much grief in forward. Like the comedy had to be higher elevated. But like I'd rather it just be a balance like phase one, two and three. Like we both agree that tone suits MCU more. And that's why I hope, I hope Faggy seems to be. like I hope he's listening

because I because this wasn't well this wasn't more this was more than just angry people screaming about this are people who really enjoyed a lot of the stuff you're going and I've I talked to people who like some of the most pleasant fans ever going yeah like love love and thunder the more I look back on phase four like I love when I get to see my characters on screen

period I will use the word love not even like love but when I'm looking back at phase one two and three versus my experience of love and thunder my experience of Multiverse of Madness, I'm going to rewatch the older stuff first. So, like, I just want more new stuff to give me that same feeling. And I don't think that's too much to ask when I love that they tried new things. But if it didn't work to scale, don't keep doing it. Exactly.

And that's, and no fault. Like, great, you try. You took a shot. You take a shot at it, like, and like, again, bringing up like that she-hulk thing. There were some people who really enjoyed that last episode, right? Yeah. Interesting. So I was telling you how much Kristen was loving the show.

She actually was very upset about that last episode because she was like, no I got that they broke the fourth wall stuff but it was the same thing she said she's like but then why didn't you go back and finish the story why the hell did you just jump to the end she was like she was like I felt robbed why why was I here this whole time and that's why I think there was a great shift here

with this movie because this movie felt like those movies and Ant Man looks harrowing that's February yes and and Amman looks like a return to the same type of feel within within humor and I hope look Ant Man too for me had the same problem than that a lot of these other movies have had.

And that was in phase four. That was in phase three or whatever it was. And it was everybody gets a joke and no matter who it was. I had the same issue with that. The trailer for the new one looks like that balance that we're looking for. This movie though overall. I like that also, sorry to interrupt. I like that overall this one didn't feel the need to,

it trusted us to be sad. And that was kind of what I was talking with the sorrow. There was like jokes, but it wasn't. But it worked. The comedy were like when Ibuco would come in and say some jokes. the outfit when when, uh, when, uh,

Coye is wearing the outfits and, and, and, and, and when when, when, when, re was making, that was funny. When, that, that, that whole thing when they, when they, when they come in there and the, the comedy of that, it all worked because it was, they were, it's, and even though I don't necessarily think that we needed to be in this movie, the humor when she was, that they were playing, it didn't feel out of place. It didn't feel like, well, why they just given some jokes? I told you, she's a Benda's character come to life. Isn't that great? Like, when I met her at Comic-Con and I was like, you, you

speak bendis and in this whole movie I was like I can see the speech bubbles like this is correct this is reery Williams so I don't I guess I don't know the character well enough too so it it the character fits exactly oh 100 so she's literally it's she does Tony if I remember correctly gets completely shocked by it because everything that he accomplished like kind of 19ish and then early 20s she did it like 14 right and so he's just like what the hell and like ends up kind of mentoring. Doesn't he ultimately die in her story? He's an AI. Yeah, exactly. He dies and he's the voice in her A guy. So he lives in her head, literally. So I think that they're probably going to. What a way to bring Downey back.

I'm sure he would do that because that's what Bettney was doing the whole time. Before he became Vision, he was just out here just talking about. Jennifer Connolly did it in Sparman. And I think that Riegree is great because she, her comedy comes from a waste of trauma. Like, she loses her best friend. She's from a rough upbringing. She's dealt with a lot of. a crap. So I like that her comedy and this felt like it was reactionary, but it was legit her character. You know what it was? I think that it, that maybe what it might be, maybe after, if I really enjoy the series and then I go back and I'll enjoy the story. Maybe because I think that I almost have like a Batman v. Superman feel with her.

She just got forced into her. Meaning that they just, well, here, she's in it and she's involved. And I wouldn't, I thought she was going to be involved in maybe just that one storyline where she comes in, she does this little, but she's getting kidnapped with her at point. She's going down to the thing. is she gets thrown in. She's a normal kid who's working on this stuff, you know, a normal kid in a sense to her.

She's a genius, but she gets thrown into this and she's just right into it. It's my same issue. Sometimes when people just, they have, they're not tested at all. And she's in the main battle at the end. And you don't ever fear for her.

You know she's going to be okay because she's a TV show coming out. So, but if it turns out that this show is really, really, you might retroactive. Also, the bubble you talk about with us being, you know, so deep in nerd culture, other people might not know she has a show.

They might have felt the stakes. Like, what if they killed the new girl? Like, she could have actually been killed off because, oh, this disposable new girl. And because, and that's my point is that that's why they did it. Right. Because for people who don't, because they didn't know that, they didn't know she was getting a show, she was just a character in the movie. And now she gets a show.

So their strategy is absolutely right. I'm just telling you the way that I felt about it because I did know that the show was coming out. I did. I did see the presentation that D-20. Right, exactly. So, like, right. It's what can be very hard sometimes about watching prequels because... Yeah, the stakes are like, well...

The stakes are lower, so you've got to really bank off of something. Yeah. All right, man. Love this. This is a great conversation. It was a good conversation. The movie's out. I really want to get your thoughts.

So do me a favor. Go in the comment section. Let me know. Let us know. We're in there. We're talking to you. We'll make sure that we comment back and forth. We'll keep it classy if you can.

Show a little. And we are very excited to be talking about this movie. And I can't wait to hear more. about it. If you're brand new to the channel, do me a favor and subscribe to it, please. We're trying to get to 70,000 by the end of the year. That's something we're trying to do, and we need you guys to help us out. So please hit that subscribe button. If you haven't joined on Patreon, patreon.com slash the Big Thing Show. Check that out for sure. Thank you once again to our sponsors over at Carbon Health. Really appreciate it. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been

Black Panther Wakanda Forever. Spoiler Review. Thank you to Coy. Thank you to Winston. And we shall see you on the flip side.