The Late Braking F1 Podcast - 2021 Saudi Arabian GP Review | Episode 165

Episode Date: December 5, 2021

Well, that was...something! The LB Boys are here to talk through a dramatic race around the new Jeddah cicuit.JOIN our Discord: https://discord.gg/dQJdu2SbAmSUPPORT our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/latebrakingTWEET us @LBrakingSUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to tune in for new episodes every Wednesday and Grand Prix Sunday. And a very warm welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by me, Ben Hocking, Sam Sage and Harry Ead. What on earth do we start with that one? Going into the last race of the season, the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, It is dead level on points between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton, but I think we need to talk a little bit about how we got to that situation

because it seemed to ebb and flow 100 times in each direction until we finally got to that point where Lewis Hamilton won, the first ever Saudi Arabian Grand Prix, Max Verstaffin in P2 and Valtrey Bossass in P3. We were saying beforehand, how on earth did we end up with such a standard podium after what on earth that race was? Sam, it's never a good sign

when we're completely exhausted before we've even got going. I am so tired, so knackered, so confused. We always have a little chat, folks, as a little bit of kind of entry into the behind the scenes of LB. We're all just sitting laughing at each other

because we just don't know what's happening, giggling our eggs off, and yet also confused, and yet also bewildered at what we've just gone through. Amazing that those drivers were able to all, I'll say, all keep it on the track. Some didn't quite manage that. But, you know, enough of them.

across the line. It was a really, really controversial. What we were saying is this going to be the most controversial Grand Prix of all time? Let us know, actually. Will you think this is the most controversial Grand Prix of all time? Also, deal or no deal, gets a mention.

Who would have thought that at the start of the weekend? Noel Empings was going to absolutely love it. Yeah, honestly, don't know where to begin. Craziness. I just been thinking to myself. I thought it was before we started talking. I think this might be the worst thing or race I've ever seen in my life.

I think honestly, I was thinking, is this worse than a typical Barcelona hot Spanish GP? And I was like, I think it might be. This is just the most bizarre thing ever. I think probably the happiest people after today are the organisers of the Belgian Grand Prix. They're delighted and they're off the hook.

It's fine. We're not the worst. A belt in GP there. Yeah. There's a lot to get through. Not that you needed telling that at all, but there is a lot to get through, and we will get to it all. A couple of disclaimers before we get going, if you are a first time listener of the podcast. Firstly, we record these immediately after the Grand Prix.

So you do get reaction that is pretty raw and off the cuff from our side. And secondly, because we are recording so soon after the race, if something happens in the stewarding room about an hour after we finish, recording, which is usually the case. We apologize. We're not wrong in the moment that we're recording it, but if information changes, we do apologize. With that, we've got a lot to get through. Everything that happened, far too much to actually run through. But the Vastappan and Lewis Hamilton incident where Lewis Hamilton went into the back of Max Vastappen, we'll be discussing that one imminently. A five second penalty came along for Max Vastappen earlier on in the Grand Prix as well. Driver of the day, worst driver of the day. That's all coming up. The track. The track.

itself, was it suitable for F1? We've got some big opinions on that one. And as Sam alluded to in his intro, deal or no deal, Michael Massey producing offers for teams. We've got a lot to get through, ladies and gents. We'll start with the Vestappen, Lewis Hamilton. I'm not going to call it a break check because that's essentially what we're deciding. Was it a break check or not? The incident, Sam, where do you at the moment lean on this? Do you think that this is more on Lewis Hamilton not getting past Max Verstappen, or do you think Max Verstappen was naughty? Do you think he break-checked them? This is so confusing, isn't it? And I'm not surprised that this ending up in some kind of collision, actually, because from a spectator's point of view, we had the

commentary team, we're aware of flags going on, we get full alerts on VSCs or other cars out, what lap we're on, what tire everyone is. I'm still sat there as a person that records a podcast related to Formula One, baffled, still baffled. So when you've got Max for Staping and Lewis Hamilton in travelling at 200 miles an hour, and one driver has been told to let someone buy, another driver hasn't had any communication, is confused why one car is in the middle of the road driving at what, like 50 miles an hour,

is taking up the 200 miles and hour as usual, and then they try to drive round them, and then all of a sudden that car in front looks as if they've also turned into the middle of the road a little bit, resulting in collision. It's all very, very confusing. So, the question is, do I think Max Mustappen break check to Lewis Hamilton?

No. I don't think there was ever the, 100% intention that Max Mustafa was trying to be malicious, unsportsman-like. I don't think Bostappan was attempting to take Lewis Hamilton out of the race by break-checking him. I don't think that's the case.

I think what Max Verstappen was trying to do, what he ended up doing, the second time he gave Lewis Hamilton the place, which is to get behind Hamilton right by the DRS activation zone. But because Lewis Hamilton had a hanging communication, because of the amount of VSCs that we had seen, general confusion must

have happened. Also, the fact that Vostappen was right in the middle of the road for a lot of it is also a little bit confusing as well. That's always tough for a car to kind of negotiate. So no, to start off with, I don't think Max Rastappen has break-checked Lewis Hamilton. Do I think that the procedure in which this took place was incredibly unclear? Do I feel like one driver was more in the wrong than the other? Yeah, a bit, I do. And do I think that maybe this policy, this procedure, the rule set, that league's... to these events happening where a driver has to give a place back should be looked into. Yes, I do.

I feel like you now, especially on tracks at this, where they are blind corners, 200 miles an hour, we saw how many crashes there were, how many wall taps they were, how dangerous some moments were. I mean, you all saw the Mazurpin crash into the back of Russell, you know, how out of the blue that was. You never know what could have happened. There needs to be some safety protocols in handing a position back and making sure it is safely done. But can I blame Lewis Hamilton for running into the back of the stabbing? I don't think this is Hamilton's fault. I don't really fully think it's Vestappen's fault,

but I do think that the car in front, when they're driving that slowly, down a very open area of the track, has got to be doing more to really clear out of the way. I think, obviously, it worked much better the second time around. There were no problems. It was a bit cheeky of Vastappen, but cheeky's all right.

It's not against the rules. So no. To answer the very simple question at the start of this section, dig Vastepen break to Hamilton. No, in my opinion. I don't think he did. Harry, break check or no? Yeah, I'm on similar lines of...

Sam here. Almost forgot your name. That was ridiculous. It's literally written on the screen. You're welcome. Yeah, it's... So weird. And I think we'll find out more,

and they're both in the stewards now, I think, basically the pair of them about this incident. And I'm sure we'll find out more probably as we've recorded this. But obviously, Vestappen's been given the instruction, he starts to slow down. And what confuses me is why Hamilton then decides to slow down. And I know he might be thinking it's a VSE, and he hasn't been given the instruction that Vestan's letting him through. But it was just all very weird.

Like, he didn't want to go past him for some reason. And I'm sure it was just confusion in the heat of the moment. But it was just so strange. But yeah, I don't think it was, for Stappen, trying to break checking. and I think he was genuinely trying to let him pass and do what he did later on the lap and get back in his toe. He wanted to let him pass before the DRS detection, I think, basically.

So he was trying to slow down, and Hamilton's not going past him, hence, while they ended up having this weird, weird little tangle. But look, and we'll get onto the stewards and Michael Massey, but again, this seems like another case of there wasn't clear guidance from them on swapping, you know, swapping the position. around because they've obviously given the instruction to Red Bull and then

giving it to Mercedes and Mercedes haven't even had chance to give the instruction to Hamilton so I know that this is something they probably do all the time in that order but in such a tight situation that we're in I think they've got to think ahead here and give it out at the same time maybe you tell them where you've got to swap it around but just a mess just a mess and I thought they're about to both end up in the wall there so it's a miracle they didn't but it's just yeah all a bit silly and just just contributed to the bizarreness there was of this race um if we can call it a race a chaotic fest of cars maybe we'll call it instead that might be more

accurate um yeah the incident itself uh was it Lewis Hamilton's fault was it Max Verstappen's fault i believe it was the fault of the infamous Frederick Ian Adams more commonly known by his initials FIA. Come on, beg me. This was not Hamilton of the Stappen's fault in my view. And maybe there is data yet to come out that we have not yet seen. Perhaps that will shed some light on this. I'm not sure.

But at least with all the information that we're armed with now, I cannot outright blame either of these two drivers for this. From Max Verstappen's perspective, first of all, He was told to slow down and let him pass. That's what he tried to do. I don't believe for a second that he tried to break-check him. That's my honest view on it. Perhaps it's naive of me to think that he wouldn't do it.

I don't think he would. I don't think it's in his nature to do something like that, which, you know, as we go through this podcast, might be the most complimentary I am about for Stappen today, but I don't believe it is within his nature to break-check an opponent. it was a fairly gradual decrease in speed. I don't think it was a similar situation to, let's say, Baku, of course, a few years ago when we had Vettel and Hamilton. With Vettel and Hamilton, the situation under the safety car, it was much more stop-start, stop-start, which caused the issue.

Here it was more of a gradual decrease of speed down to a point where Hamilton could get past, so I don't think this happened is to blame here. Lewis Hamilton, I agree, is a bit of an odd one in that he didn't want to go past. But as I was thinking about this, and I was trying to put myself in Hamilton's situation. And honestly, Max Verstappen, letting him buy is probably for me the third most plausible thing that is actually happening there. I do think the most plausible thing is that there is a VSC that Hamilton, for whatever reason, has not known about yet. bear in mind that there were approximately 94 VSCs on the five previous laps. So it wasn't completely ridiculous to think that there would be another one.

Second of all, actually, again, before plausible Vestappen letting him pass, is there might have been debris right in front of Vastappen that he couldn't see. And again, there was debris everywhere. We heard multiple drivers say about it. I think that was more plausible than Vestappen letting him bar. and Harry, you've already alluded to this, the communication side of things, if Hamilton doesn't know beforehand that Vostappen is letting him past, he has to believe that Max Vastappen is doing it out of the goodness of his own heart and nothing else.

Because if there's no communication between Mercedes, well, the FIA to Mercedes and then Mercedes to Hamilton, this is orchestrated and this is happening, Hamilton has no reason to believe Vestappen is going to let him by unless he's doing it on his own. volition, which, based on everything we've seen over the last few years, seems pretty unlikely. Vastappen might well be willing to let Hamilton buy if he's told to do so. I don't think he's the type of person to let him buy because he thinks it's the right thing to do. So I can completely sympathise with Hamilton's situation where he was a bit tentative to go past. I don't think I would have made, I don't think I would have jumped to the conclusion that he's letting me pass here because

of what happened before if he doesn't have that radio communication in. So I do lay the blame and this isn't the first time this is going to happen today. There's a bit of a spoiler. I'm laying blame at the feet of the FIA. And I think it is important. Interget on one of your points that you made, which I think was completely correct about the possible BSC, is that let's remember, just to back that point up, that Hamilton has already been summoned to the stewards for not seeing where

of yellow flags, which in turn he wasn't actually shown already, right? He doesn't want to go to the security, he doesn't want a penalty for Foster overtake under the ESC that he doesn't get to see. And also, we had it in F2 as well, where flags are not seen properly. So there's already a flag-related issue going on around the track. Sorry, carry on, I just want to really bring that evidence up to why that point might ring true. Yeah, I think it's completely valid because even a small error from Lewis Hamilton that causes

a penalty, let's say that that means Vestappen wins the race and Hamptu. Hamilton finishes second because of like a five second penalty or something along those lines. Vastappen goes into the last race of the year with a 15 point lead, meaning Vastappan only needs, he only needs fifth place and he's sewn up the title in Abbey-Dabby. So he couldn't afford even the smallest of errors. He had to play it so safe to the point where I think I would have done exactly the same thing. And I would have played it safe. So I sympathise with Hamilton's situation.

I do think the error is on the FIA where you need to let them know simultaneously to ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen. If you can be more specific and be more specific in terms of corner where it's going to happen, great. But I think this is an error on FIA's port. Good old Frederick Ian Adams.

I love that. Frederick Ian Adams is the best name ever for the FIA. What do you think Frederick looks like? I think it's an amalgamation of all the skewers and Michael Massey's faces in one human large head. And he's just like a massive head. Have you ever seen Power Rangers Mighty Morpheanagan's?

Where it's just the big head in a glass cube. I think that's what Frederick looks like. I think this is a real showing of like Sam's creativity versus mine. I was literally just going to say Michael Massey with a mustache. I mean...

Nothing else. I like the idea that maybe it is the big head in a tube. and the moustache Michael Massey is like the PR face of the organisation. Well, Mr Adams, you haven't got off to a great start today, and I would be lying if I said it was going to get better for you. But more on that later. Another incident between Vastappan and Hamilton,

as we run the gauntlet of everything that they did out there today. Five second penalty for an incident where they went side by side into turn one, as well as handing the place back, which again opens up a can of worms. Harry, what was your view on that five-second penalty that was applied? Could I just admit something at this point? Please do. Because I was eating a lasagna at this very moment.

The penalty was eaten. The penalty was eating. No, I was eating at the same. So I was concentrating. But was the penalty given out for not giving the place back or for forcing Hamilton off the track. I believe it was forcing Hamilton off the track. Leaving the track and gaining advantage is the official language used.

Those are the exact words, yes. So in that case, it's not giving the place back because if he gave the place back, you wouldn't get a penalty? That's what we're here to discuss. You're trying to get me to understand the stewards, Harry. I don't know what you want to me, mate. Ben just shrugged his shoulders, folks, for those of you listening. Okay, fine.

that doesn't really clear much up for me. Bloody lasagna ruined in my life. Yeah, look, it was deserved if he hadn't given the place back. But I was so confused at that point as to who was given the place back to who I was lost. So to be honest, my views on this are fairly muddled. In terms of the move itself, it was, I don't think it was as bad as Brazil. I think he was less in control than he was in Brazil. But it was fairly desperate from Verstappen's point of view.

And, you know, it takes Hamilton to get out of the throttle, you know, out of the steering, sorry, to avoid that incident. So from that point of view, I think it did deserve something. But in terms of the reasoning to why they gave it and the shenanigans that followed after, I don't know whether that penalty applies or not, but who knows these days. Yeah, it was a bit of a banzai one and, you know, somewhere there doesn't have a runoff in, that's tarmac. Yeah, they're both in the gravel, basically, or at least Vestappen is. So it was a bansai and a tad desperate, and I can understand why, but I think it was all getting fairly hot-headed out there, particularly with Vestappen. So it was penalty fair, probably.

Maybe not for the reason they gave it for, but probably fair in the end. but yeah I'm sorry folks this is this is not been the best commentary and again I blame the lasagna but if there's any consolation it was delicious I know it's been a long day I know it's been a long day Harry but you can't blame the lasagna

never let's just get something straight here we're never going to blame a lasagna it is a perfect creation and you know what it might be better than whatever fast we saw up the top there so you enjoy your lasagna Harry I'm glad you enjoyed it thanks I mean I did I just I just missed of what was happening to be honest

That's all right. And I think I would have, I think I would have missed it even if I was fully concentrating. I didn't have lasagna in my mouth at the time. But, yeah. Was it homemade or ch'gots? No, I've made it, mate. Well done. I'm quite impressed.

I'll have to go try your homemade lasagna at some point. I will come around, mate. I'm making a lasagna. I'm excited. Ben he's shaking his head. I was just going to say I wouldn't go anywhere near Harry's lasagna. It's probably got five brunch bars in it. Oh, God. How funny would that be if I turn up right?

And the lasagna is just brunch bars and layered on top of each other with some tomato sauce in the middle. This is what I fear. This makes more sense currently than that whole race, by the way. Oh, God. Let's move away from lasagna, as much as it pains me to do so, and move back to the incident, which of course is connected to lasagna. Sam, penalty, no penalty. What were your thoughts on the incident? Okay, bear with me, folks.

We're going on a little bit of a wild ride. Castauminds back to Brazil, the incident between Bostappan and Hamilton, where at that time, a precedent was set, right? Bostappan rungs Hamilton wide off the road, regardless of what control of the car he had or whatnot. You know, people feel that that should have been a five-second penalty. The stewards ruled at that point that that is fair.

Of course, we had the whole debacle online, and with drivers releasing statements going, I'm going to change my driving style, I now will race like that. That's set the precedent, that is now fair. In one direction, if the stewards are giving a five-second penalty at that point to Max Verstappen for running Hamilton off the road at that point, you would have looked at the move that was displayed here in Saudi Arabia, at Jedder, and gone, it's exactly the same. It's five-second penalty. You've run a dryer off the road, crowing them off the road without space, and you've gained

advantage because of it, five-second penalty. And you go, okay, that makes sense, it's consistent. That will make total sense. But we all know that Frederick is not consistent. So, of course, Frederick himself, the FIA, decided that there would not be a penalty in Brazil, therefore that has set up the precedent. And the likes of Charler-Clauerrelease statement saying,

I will now run drivers-wide. And we have basically said that going around the outside is basically not impossible. It's not possible anymore. And look at what has happened today. So let's go to the move. The move, of course, is the fact that, The Staplan is down the inside, and he forces Hamilton wide, I believe, and then he gains

advantage from it. It was the other way around. I don't remember what it was. It happened so many times. That's another confusing thing. The move happened more than once, so it was only one penalty given for it. And then at that point there, they didn't investigate it. They kind of just went, all right, we'll have a little, they noted it. I think the alert that came up on the screen was. It has been noted. And then a few laps later, you hear the confused message from Redwood going, okay, give it back, give it back, which we hadn't heard anything from the FIA, Hamilton hadn't heard anything, neither had Mercedes, and then we have the collision, of course, as Stappen was trying to give it back. And then the second time,

Mustafa does then give it back again, after a bit of confusion, a bit of delay, and then a penalty is applied. So, Vestaffing has attempted twice to give the place back, to give the place back at this point, and after actually letting Hamilton through without contact the second time, he's then awarded the five-second penalty for theoretically rectifying the problem that was caused, what, 10, 12 laps at this point ago? No one remembers anymore. That's how long the race felt. So the real reason why this penalty was rewarded is I'm going to give it down to incompetence

from the FIA. Not because of rough racing, not because of, you know, rough racing, not because of, you know, confusion with the drivers. It's because they've set a precedent that doesn't make sense. They then tried to reinforce a different precedent, which goes against their own rule set. And when Verstappen tried to do the right thing, as told by his team, he was then immediately then also penalised and not once that I can remember

has there ever been a driver who's been told to give a position back they've given the position back and then they've also been giving a five second time penalty because that literally defeats the point of giving the position back so it's a state it's an absolute mess it's like if you took Harry's lasagna

and threw it against a wall and rang it over that's what this looks like disgusting horrible mess you've ruined something that was once so wonderful like a move around the outside I am so confused, Frederick. Please sort it out. In my mind, do they give the, and I'm probably remember this wrong because, you know,

La Sanya, but don't they give the penalty whilst Vastappan is giving the place back? In my mind, that's how that happened. Like it pops up on the screen as Vastappan is like swapping around again. Or Hamilton's getting past. I think it was within the next lap. Hamilton had managed to get the move back done again and it popped up as the move was happening. Yeah. That's clarifying. I hope that clears a lot of things up for you, Harry.

Thank you. There isn't a lot of clarity on pretty much everything today, but I do want to be clear about one thing before I start with what I want to say. It would be clear about one thing. You should not listen to us on like 99% of things because we don't know what we're talking about at all. Great advert for the podcast. However, a broken clock is right twice a day. a squirrel does occasionally find a nut and we are occasionally right about things and we were right about what happened in Brazil

not in terms of whether it should be a penalty or shouldn't be a penalty we said at the time you have set a dangerous precedent you have you have set a very dangerous precedent because you have said that you are allowed to when you're side by side just going into a corner you can run the other guy out doesn't matter doesn't matter you don't even have to make the corner yourself. It is legal. And I don't even know why I should be surprised at this because the FIA have completely gone back on their own word and they have allowed exactly the same thing to happen.

I actually think the incidents are incredibly similar between this one and Brazil. I don't think there's much at all. Vestappen tried to defend the corner and he didn't have control. He didn't make the corner himself. And as a result of that, he kept the position. So surely the exact, the exact end.

same thing should have happened at Brazil. I was perfectly clear at Brazil that I thought that that should be a penalty, and so this incident should as well. But because they said in Brazil that it wasn't a penalty, this should therefore not be a penalty. Again, I'm pretty clear on what I think should be allowed and not allowed, but what takes precedence above that is consistency. It's got to be consistent one race to the next.

Otherwise, the drivers don't know what approach to take, and you can't blame them. You almost can't blame Vastappen for doing what he did because why would he think he should be penalised for it if he did the same thing a few races ago and wasn't penalised for it? It's just mixed messages being said to the drivers which really should not be the case from the people making the decisions, making the laws, making the rules. It's not okay. You know, a five second penalty is exactly what I think should be applied, but applied at all the races if you're going to do that. again i i think i explained this well enough on the brazil review podcast that i do believe moves around the outside are entertaining and that they should stay in formula one as much as they

can so by penalizing this sort of situation you're encouraging more side-by-side racing more brilliant moves around the outside of corners i'm a bit i'm a bit of a loss for words because i don't know what i can say that i haven't already said about good old frederick it's just Oh, sorry, Fred. And I don't say this very often because it's not very often true, but Sam, you've summarised this perfectly. Thanks. That's a first.

I'm joking. I'm joking. Incompetence is exactly the right word. There is not a better word that I could use right now to describe this whole situation. Inconsistent incompetence. No, it's consistent incompetence. It's inconsistent and incompetent. Got me clear about that.

Take that sick burn. how you're going to recover from that one? He's not another time to recover, I'm afraid, because we've got more to talk about yet. It's not over. We've still got deal or no deal to discuss later on. But before we get there, let's have a look at Driver of the Day,

worst driver of the day, and the moment of the race. So we'll start with Driver of the Day, as we always do. Sam, who have you got lined up for this one? It's tough when you've got a race that consists of so many strange and bizarre elements and you know what I just like to take my cap off once again to the race director

who managed to miss so many crucial moves and moments that I don't really know sometimes where some people have finished um give a shout out to car lost sight so after his car was pretty undrivable in qualify managed to end up in the points he did a good job there geovanazzi he scored points right um that's pretty great for geo rock on yeah we love that good old geo uh i am going to give it to lewis hamilton um the man can have lost his head on very very very many occasions, had contact multiple times and still with literally a broken car was managing to set fastest lap after fastest lap

it just showed the determination that I think that a world champion needs. It shows what Hamilton and the staff and are made of that they were still so far ahead of each other after both coming to an actual halt and having a cup of tea on the back straight. Those two are in a world of their own. There were some great performances and there were some bad performances but for me Hamilton takes it this time. Harry, driver of the day.

Yeah, shout out to Giovanni, especially as he's just been recently sacked, bless him. But I thought he was pretty strong all weekend. I'm going to give it to Esteban Ockon, because I know he was fortunate with the red flag because he's brought up the staff and didn't stop. But, you know, he almost got up, he was a tenth away from a podium.

Like, come on, that's not bad for an alpine, especially two races in a row. And he was comfortably ahead of Alonzo all weekend. So, yeah, I'm going to give it to Ockham, because he was kind of like the most feel good story out there. The rest of it made me feel a bit dirty, like a little bit of shower. So I'm going to give it to Ockon for making him feel a bit clean. Also, Ricardo as well, sorry.

Ricardo deserves a major. I mean, he had a similar story, wasn't it? It benefited from the first red flag, but still did the same as Ocon, held off Bottas for a very long time, and got some much-needed points from Macca. Yeah, I think Ocon's a good condition. contender just because even without the red flag, he did a really good job in that first stint, actually. So he was right up there in terms of my contenders. Lewis Hamilton was there as well.

I think he did a great job. But I'm going to, so an interesting one. Sometimes we all deliver the same person for this, and this time around we're all going for different people. I am going to give it to Germanazzi. I think he did an exceptional job out there. Outpaced Kimmy Reichenen all weekend long. Did it crash into people? He didn't crash into people, which was great.

And almost for the same reason as you, Harry. It's always like, ah, he did his job without too much drama. He's in the minority in that respect. And to be fair to him, Javanazzi this season has become, do you remember a few years back when it was Gutierrez and Grogion at House? When Gutierrez used to finish 11th, pretty much every week.

Jovemanazzi seems to have, taken on that role this year. So it's actually good to see him, you know, especially after, what was it, the Mexican Grand Prix, where his strategy really let him down. This time around, he was able to finish the job and actually finishing the points. So I was glad to see that for his sake. Worst driver of the day. There were some contenders for driver of the day. I think there might be some contenders for this one as well. Harry. Kind of hurts to say it, but I'm going to have to give it to old Fernando Alonzo. Just a bit slow this weekend, wouldn't he?

Just not quite there. And he gave his good Fernando Lanzo best, being a bit wily, mega start. And then, you know, realize he wasn't going to make turn one, so just didn't do it. Classic Philando-O-Lonso. Strat. Yeah, just, I don't need, who needs corners? Rubbish. But, yeah, just not the greatest weekend from him, especially following on from what was

like it'll be his best weekend of the year so yeah I'll give it to Fons and as the chairman of the Fernando Lodza fan club that hurts who have you got some well like you said then when it comes to some of these we often all agree and then sometimes we often all disagree

but for the worst drive of the day I completely agree with Harry Alonso looked like he had some issues with the car to start with and then he was going nowhere and then from about lap 20 onwards after the red flags had died down every time we paned to Alonkso he was just not facing the right way.

He was just, I'm on another curb. Oh, don't worry, again, I'm all alone, but I'm also just on the wrong curb again. And I also absolutely loved, and I think he was right to call it out, but it also felt like he had his own interests at heart. I think we're a safety car for all this debris that's on the track.

Not a VSC, no, no, no. Maybe a red flag, actually. I think we need to pull one of those out just to make sure that it's all clear just to get himself back in the fight, which I actually love. that's a Formula One driver trying to think of any way of getting himself sorted. But it did feel like he was desperately just trying to save himself a little bit.

Not the best from Fernando. I mean, it's very interesting you bring up that point because Sam today was the last one to join our group chats. So me and Harry were chatting for a few minutes before Sam joined. And that is pretty much exactly what we said about Fernando Alonzo. I said this to Harry. It's like whenever Fernando Alonzo says anything like this, The first question you have to ask is, how does this impact Fernando Alonzo?

If it massively benefits him, you probably need to take a second look at it. If it doesn't benefit him, then it really is a no-brainer that this should happen. That's kind of how I determine things when it comes to Fernando Alonzo. Unfortunately, it's three for three, I'm afraid, Fonzo. Sorry, Fernando.

I'd go with him as well. It's very bizarre. It's really bizarre that Qatar was arguably his best race of the season, as he already alluded to. And you would go into it thinking, well, Qatar was a brand new track for essentially all of them. I know a couple of them did junior races, but it was pretty much a brand new track for every single driver. And this was exactly the same situation. So you go in thinking, well, he did very well on a new track last time.

Maybe it's the same thing again. And it definitely was not the case. had a spin, wasn't very quick, can I give it to him. I just need to say, though, thank you to Fernando for giving us yet another brilliant Fernando Alonzo meme of him watching Match for Stappen's Qualifying Macchus.

Yes, the eyes, the eyes over the mask. God, be, sorry, me watching the drama from the back seat. Close eyes. That's so good. Was it actually eyes like, oh, that's a lot. interesting or oh i'm going to be involved in that next year they were this is spicy eyes yes a plan el plan el plan so we've essentially decided in the fernando or fanand no um alon si or along no uh it's a long no this week the clats are there alongside also go away from the microphone so maybe not a headphone

so maybe not a headphone warning needed. I understand that some people obviously have their headphones quite loud, and I know I am loud, apologies, if that irritates. So the clap was tried to be very far removed. Incredibly well refrained. Well done. Geez, moment of the race. Good Lord, where do we go with this? Harry.

Some many. I don't even know. Where would you begin? I'm do you know what and I feel like I'm the cause so I'm going to go for Mick Schumacher

crashing and causing that first red flag hefty shunt because I mean that has just tries to kill them at every available opportunity doesn't it just like had enough of you today in the wall off you go yeah but just before I mean to the second

before that I text my dear father saying oh Mick Schumackers had a really good start he's ahead of one Williams he's only a second behind the other and I pressed send and then there was a red flag safety car and he's in the wall so I'm going to go with that

because from there on in it just turned into an outrageous outrageousness of a race the first 10 laps or whatever it was like a normal everyday standard Formula 1 race and then it all went wrong from there

so I'm going to go with that just because it was the catalyst for the complete nonsense we saw for the remaining 40 laps. I feel like for the wings of change, Harry, you know, Formula One drivers when they're listing, they hear you utter their name.

They're shivering fear of, oh, no, something's about to happen to me. In the preview podcast, I commended Max Westappen for his consistency this season and lack of mistakes and then a qualifier and he goes and bloody puts it in the wall.

So, I'm sorry to all of the F1 drivers. I won't mention your name ever again. Unbelievably, though. unbelievably though both yourself and I we did get poll one two three correct you did

so you did get one thing right well done we'll review bold predictions in a moment that doesn't go quite as well but you'll soon find out oh no or no indeed

moment of the race for you Sam oh it's got a big deal I'll go deal I'm sorry Michael Massey quite literally opening the red box you know Michael on the lab box number 18

please. Oh, oh, come on, come on, Jonathan, come on, Jonathan. Oh, it's position three for you, Jonathan, in the box today. Also, ring, ring, ring. Oh, it's, it's the banker. Hello, is that Michael? Very excited for next race. It's actually just Eddie Jordan.

I'm very excited for next phase, but we're surely going to have FIA who wants to be a millionaire. We'll probably making appearance on the grid. So, absolutely brilliant. Deal or O'Dill in Formula One. Never thought. like see the day. If you'd like us to see a budget recreation,

which we'll make on our own, let us know. It will take some time. We'll probably do it in two years, but we could do it with Gange, maybe. Michael Massey's Tombola is an absolutely excellent way to end the day. That's,

if you hadn't chosen that one, I might well have done. But actually, I've got something else. Because in a race that involved Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton colliding at about 10 miles an hour. In a race where the two of them switched positions probably about 25 times,

in a race where there was an incident between them into turn one about three times. We had the Michael Massey-Tombola, we had the Schumacher crash, we had Mazapin going into the back of a Williams at a scarily high speed. We had so many things happening that you might well think

that Ferrari have managed to blend themselves into the crowd. Not on my watch, Ferrari. Not on my watch, because you might well have noticed 10 years ago, at lap 10 or whatever it was, it felt so long ago, when Carlos Sines and Shao Leclair, Ferrari did not have the wherewithal to stop their drivers battling over what was, I think, P10 at the time, you had signs and Leclair going side by side into a corner

that could easily have gone horribly wrong. It didn't, but goodness me, Ferrari, how do you not control your drivers to not fight over, and I repeat this, P-10. It meant nothing, but yet you allowed them to go side by side into the corner. And do you know what I also noticed? As a result of their battling, they ended up being about 10 seconds behind Joe Vanazzi when it was all said and done. You just shoot yourselves in the foot when there's no need to. So well done, Ferrari. You nearly avoided my scrutiny, but not quite. You still made one horrible error.

I've just remembered another moment of the race. There's so many. There's so many. I was thinking about the Claire's radio message after he took out Perez. Oh, I didn't see him there. Sergio Perez just stood on the corner of that racetrack on his own. And the camera was slowly panging out.

And he's just alone on the racetrack. Just looking at his car like, hello? Hello? Can I have my car back, please? It's like, literally, it's like when you used to play football in your garden and you kick the ball over the fence and you were like, excuse me, miss, can I have my ball back? And no one was home. No one was listening to Sergio.

It was like, great, got a walk back now. That, hilarious. Me and all my friends at my birthday. Toto, Toto Wolf, smashing up what looked like fairly expensive pair of Bose headphones. Honestly, if those headphones have survived, Boe's another good one. If those headphones have survived, Bose make that an advert, because it's fair. I think I saw on Twitter, he's admitted that they didn't. Oh, Bose don't not make that an advert.

Shut that down quick. Stay away from acting, no, too. I even think, my partner was watching, sorry, Ben, I just got to comment more on the headphone drama. No, no, no, this is, this is prime time entertainment. Thousands of you listening. And obviously they colliding, Handwitting and snap and colliding, of course.

And I said, watch Toto now, watch Toto. He goes to the table. Oh no, Toto out does himself there by pulling off the headphones, and I said, those headphones are getting yeated. Didn't eat them? Oh, good, no. He combined the two, headphones and table, and decided to power him through.

I just thought it was pure Toto. Brilliant. It was great. So many moments of the race. We'll get on with it, sorry. No, I just love the irony that the speed at which the headphones hit the table would have been more than Hamilton hit

Verstappen. That's great. Good, good, good, good. We made some bold predictions coming into the weekend and as per usual they went absolutely fantastically well. So to start off with Harry, Harry predicted that Sebastian Vettel

would finish in the top five. He had probably five incidents but he definitely did not finish in the top five knocked out in Q1. Circuit King. didn't quite work out for Harry. Sam's bold prediction was that Vastappen would not finish on the podium, which at least at the time of recording is correct,

but you might have a backdoor way to get this one right, Sam, if he does get this qualified. Who knows? I'm holding on to it. My bold prediction was correct if you were to take it after the first lap, because my bold prediction was that all 20 drivers would survive. which Mick Schumacher decided that's not going to happen, and then it all kind of went downhill from there. So at least at the time of recording,

nought out of three from our side. Hopefully your bowl predictions are one a bit better than ours. Boys, I don't know about you. After that, I could really do with a beer. I love a beer. Just one. I could do it with a few more than that. I think I could do with eight or maybe ten beers.

No, no, no. What's better than eight beers, boys? Tell me, what's the answer? Nine beers. I got this right last time, I think. I don't know. I'm going to go one higher. How is it ten? It is. That is right. Ten. The festive season is upon us. You know, Christmas is, as we record, this 20 days away, on the day of the Saudi Arabian Crash Fest. So, yeah, festival season is upon us. And the spirit of giving and charity, Beer 52 are offering listeners 10 free beers.

All you have to do is go to www. beer52.com 4 slash late, spelt L-A-T-E because sometimes people get our name wrong, which I don't understand. And cover 595 a postage to claim your free case. What's more? Do it before the 17th of December and get two extra beers.

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craft lagers and sumptuous stouts. If dark beers aren't your thing, simply use the light option instead of a mixed case. And if you thought it was just the delicious beer, you would be wrong because you also get Fement Magazine which delves into the beers, breweries and the theme of the month. You'll also get two delicious snacks that you can wash down with the beer. And after redeeming your first case, you'll join the monthly beer club at £24 per month. There's no minimum commitment and you can pause or cancel at any time. So just

remember the link that is www.bivir52.com forward slash late. L-A-T-E. lovely beer. We turn our attention to the circuit itself. So there were a lot of questions coming into the Grand Prix, whether the circuit would be, first of all, ready, which it was, but also just generally suitable for Formula One, or indeed wider speaking in terms of racing, because we had F2 there this weekend as well.

Harry, in hindsight, you know, do you think that this race was suitable for Formula One in that state? Absolutely. no in the bin with this circuit i just slightly terrified i mean i said it before like you're playing it on the f1 game and it's terrifying if it's terrifying on a racing game then it's it's going to be terrifying in real life and having watched i sat down today at half past two whatever it was to watch the f2 race which didn't actually start for another like 45 minutes and there was a big um start pilot with um theo theo poachette and nzo fitzipaldi and hope they're okay and

they're both in the hospital the moment. And we got about 10 minutes worth of racing before there was another incident and another red flag. And, you know, that kind of set the tone for then the F1 race. It's just, it's too quick for, too quick with too many blind corners. If they weren't, if it wasn't a street circuit, then I think, yes, you can have it. But it's just, I think, too many blind corners here. You know, and I think in a sense we were lucky to get away, or get away with it,

because, yeah, every, crash is not a small apart from Hamilton and Vastappen, but they were going fairly slowly, but all the other crashes are big crashes. The crash for Schumacher was a huge crash, the crash for Lecler, Perez, Russell,

Mazepin, that was completely horrendous too. Just on the edge, on the edge watching it a lot of the time, I mean, especially the Mazapin one on board, that was pretty horrific. Because you just can't see what's going to come around

the if there's a slow car there I mean qualifying was Q1 was awful I didn't really want to watch it so yeah I'm not I'm not a fan I mean if they're going to go back I'd like to see some changes it's just too fast and I don't want to blame

individuals on the ground but there was a lot of like marshalling errors we saw it with Hamilton was investigated after FP3 and I think on that start line incident in the F2 there were no yellow flags on that the grid when poor chair didn't move away so I know it's you know it only got built this week but he'll finish this week so maybe they didn't have the time to be completely up to speed on the training but I just think especially at this circuit they needed to be on the ball I don't think they were

so I would be happy not to come back here and the thing that worries me out of this from a you know commercial standpoint and I'm talking about liberty and the owners of f1 they are going to look at this with Hamilton and Vestappen now even and go, that was great. We'll go back for the next 10 years because look at what it's brought us. We've got two title protagonists on equal points going to the final round. And it's all thanks to you, Saudi Arabia. I'm like, that's not the way to look at it. But I'm worried that's how it's going to go down.

But I would, yeah, like I said, it would be very happy just not to go back there because it's just been frightening to watch. they'll only need to take one look at social media figures and their decision will be their mind will be made up I reckon I think you've I think you've spotted the money with that Sam what's your thoughts about the track itself well we mentioned it in the preview podcast I'm going to bring it up again here because I think it's relevant

and Ben you being lovely stat man which I've said quietly to those who don't like it um thank you Harry it's not just me That's going to really annoy someone, I'm sorry. We said beforehand in the preview podcast, we're beginning of the right number.

It's not 120 days that is required for a street circuit to be formally checked and approved to be a part of the Formula One calendar. Now, if that were to have been done, and we'll have seen the errors that, still we've seen the errors from the marshalling, from the light system, from the VSC warnings that sometimes haven't come up.

The flags were not waived appropriately, I would have been worried. But the fact that they've clearly allowed this to go ahead with less than 48 hours of buildings being put into place. Marshals were clearly not trained. I'm just also going to prefix this with the marshals that we get at these races are bloody fantastic. They do it for free.

You know, they are volunteers. They are all trained in a part of a big group that really make sure. And they pride themselves on how good they are. The marshalling was not good enough this weekend in terms of safety and flags being waived and making sure that people were in the right place at the right time. And at a track that is this intense. This high speed, blind corners, pretty much every single corner, and the runoff was so, so small. And don't get me wrong, we race from Monaco, we raised from Singapore.

I don't have an issue with there being a barrier and single a runoff, right? That's part of the challenge, that's part of the threat. But these are the speeds of, you know, spa going down Blanchemong, for example. This is the level of speed you get going down the back straight of Mongza, which is called the Temple of Speed, right? And you're doing this in a concrete funnel, essentially. that's what you're going through with these cars. It is really scary. It's the first race I think I have actually ever turned up to

to watch on my sofa at home, and I've turned it on and gone, I feel nervous. I feel a bit scared watching this Grand Prix because I'm so worried, especially after the F2, Inxon, which happened on the start grid. I was so nervous that there was going to be something horrific

that went wrong there. And I think we're lucky, actually, that the likes of Schumacher, Mazurin, you know, Russell, everyone that was involved in Inkson today, have walked away and of course thoughts with the two F2 drivers that are currently still in hospital

yes we've got a thumbs up from one of them but they've still had to go to hospital this begs the question could it happen easily again because something go wrong easily again it's unnerving of course if they find a way to make all the walls transparent

so you can see through them while you drive around the corners then that's a logical workaround not sure if it is humanly possible without making them out of glass definitely logical If that's the case, I don't want that either. Yeah, so, I mean, yes, you're right, Harry, everything you said, that I'll see social media numbers,

they'll see the standings, and they'll go, this weekend was a massive success. We have absolutely nailed it. Let's do it again. It's giving us the reaction we wanted. But in terms of safety, in terms of the need, when we've got so many brilliant tracks, something about this, I think needs to be able to just to allow a bit of slowing down. Corners need to just be opened a little bit to allow for more visual. for drivers to be more aware of any

instances that are going on, and there needs to be more marshalling that is bang on the money. It needs to be there immediately when it's needed, because we had some close calls, and it could have gone really, really badly. So, the track providing an exciting race, but was it a race that I enjoyed? I don't know if I

did. I don't know if I did enjoy it. It produced a lot of toxicity, a lot of carnage, a lot of possible damage to people, and I don't know if I need that in Formula One. I just want good hard racing with lots of fun overtakes and close moves. That's all I need. And there are a lot of brilliant tracks that provide that.

Do I need another one that creates this level of scare? So, no, I feel like we need some changes if we were to come back here again. I mean, I was terrified Q1 particularly, because you're right. I mean, the incident where Max Verstappen was, wasn't it? He came up to that group of cars, and probably about four or five of them there, about to start a lap. Utterly terrifying.

considering the closing speeds as you head towards that part of the track honestly if it was if it was the corner beforehand that's that's a crash that's happening at a very high speed and there are a number of a number of high speed corners blind corners as well which actually might be the more significant thing where it was scary you know the schumacher and leclair incidents which were almost carbon copies of one another they they both they both ended up fine because of the angle at which they hit the wall. Imagine if rather than a spin going into the corner, you've actually just got a snap and you actually go just head first into that wall,

that's going to be a hundred times worse than what the incidents actually were going into that corner. So, yeah, I do think elements of that track, I think the first sector is fine. I actually think the middle sector is generally okay. It's that sort of end of second sector into the third sector. That, for me, board a lot.

dangerous there. And, you know, we have to remember ultimately these street circuits that seem to be getting more and more of, yes, they're great for the cities. Yes, they're great financially, great for the people. They're not purpose built. Have to remember that. Underline thing, they are not purpose-built race circuits, which is okay if you can mitigate the issues of that. They've done a great job there in terms of Singapore, but it's not the same at Saudi Arabia. even if you compare it to Baku, which is probably the closest track you can compare it to, even there, the blind corners are generally the lowest speed ones, essentially the ones in the castle section. Whereas here it seems like actually the blind corners are the fastest ones on the circuit,

which is never going to end well. Fortunately, at least in F1 terms, we've walked away without major incident. The Mazurpin one, as you already mentioned, was utterly terrifying. F2 can't be said at the moment, because of what's happening there with poor Sharon Fittipaldi. But yeah, I would not be upset if they didn't go back here. Not that they would listen to me. Not that they are going to listen to me.

But I would not be devastated at all if they did not return. And that's from a pure track standpoint as well. That's not getting into the, that's not even getting into human rights issues, which is a separate debate in its own right. Just pure track-based. I still have question marks about. this.

Yeah. Quick question. It was a tough watch. Yeah, go on. What do you think? How do you feel if, let's say, after the long bank's left hander, so we're coming out into essentially the second half of the circuit, how would you feel if they removed all walls and at the edge of every corner it was either

grass or gravel trap? No runoff, no tarmac run off, but grass or gravel trap. How would you feel for, you know, for the rest, if we were to come back and that's what they have done? I think, sorry, Ben, better. It's the blind corners, which are the issues. And I was going to make this point, and Ben, you brought out with Baku, the blind corners there are so much slower, so it's not an issue.

But here, they're just so quick. And all it takes is for, you know, a car who's a couple of seconds ahead of you, suddenly has some sort of failure or, or, well, the end of the F2 race today, the car in front spun, and basically, into the bath of another car who was about to come around the corner and couldn't do anything about it and smashed straight into them. So I think if you mitigate those areas where you cannot see around the corner, it's better, but it's still just a bit of a scary racetrack for me. Yeah, I agree with that. I think the whole gravel and grass argument is wider reaching than just this circuit.

I would like it applied at many more circuits as well, but do I think it makes the issue go away? No, does it help? Yeah, sure, but no, not completely. Before we move on, I just actually wanted to reference the marshalling as well just quickly on this, because I agree with what you said in that the marshalling was not good enough this weekend, and I just want to echo really what you've already started to mention, that if there is an issue with the marshalling, I will not ever point fingers at individual marshals.

and call them out for bad decisions or not doing their jobs properly. Because if there is any issue with marshalling, it goes back to the organisation of the marshals, not them individually. They are volunteers and they are giving up their time to give us a sport. Without them, F1, any motorsport is not achievable. So I agree with your point 100%, but I want to be clear about where I am on it.

and that is that it is not at the feet of the people who are actually on the ground doing this. Separate conversation. Baffling that their still balances and the millions upon millions upon millions of income that is generated, they see none of it. So, you know, just keep trusting. It is, and I think that is probably worthy

of a debate in its own... Another time. ...on another episode. Yeah, agree with you. Good news, Frederick. Your time has cut. Oh, wait, no, we still got a bit more. Deal on O'Dill time.

Oh, good, Noel. Special guest, Noel, friend of the podcast. Noel Edmonds. He doesn't know it, but he is a good friend of the podcast. I apologize, I can't quite remember who the American version of of Noel Edmonds is for deal or no deal. How is someone, I think. Me and Harry will look it up.

Can't quite remember what his surname is. Anyway, wider point. There was an incident, of course, involving the restart. Ocon, Hamilton, Vastappen, three wide into the first corner. Didn't go very well, put it that way. Max Vestappen was, once the red flag had been brought out yet again, and we knew we were going to get another standing start. The discussion turned to where they would line up.

Would it be Vestappen still ahead of the other two? Would Vastappen have to fall behind Hamilton? But where does Ocon go into that? It was a very confusing situation. and we got some radio from Michael Massey to Red Bull, which was essentially offering them the situation of Vastappan starting P3 behind both Ocon and Hamilton. Slightly confusing in the way that they got to that,

there were a certain miscommunication as to what the offer actually was, and we'll debate the miscommunication as well as the offer existing in the first place. Sam, I know you've got some pre-communication, pretty bold views on this, so I'll let you go first. I mean, I think a lot of our Discord, and if you aren't part of the Discord, and you enjoy the podcast, you want to speak to more people that are loving of F1 and love the Discord, then links in the description. I'd love to have you in there. I think a lot of them are quite on the same page as us, as the three of us. I know that they're obviously conflicted using

a lot of F1, but I think a lot of people stand in the same place here of going, what the hell was going on with that conversation? It was one of the most bizarre things I've ever heard on an F1 radio ever, I think. So Max Verstappen, of course, gained a full advantage by essentially going off the track and then basically jumping the curb to stop Lewis Hamilton getting past. It was obviously the motive,

wanted to get back in front as soon as possible, and Ockonging all that messiness, managed to be quite clever and slip on through past Hamilton. So eventually, the Stapen led, Ocon, Ocon, Ned Hamilton. We obviously then had to stop the race and we had to do another red flag. And at that point, everyone kind of knew

the staffing surely had to give some kind of position back that's not how you rejoin a race track it's not how you get a move down you can't complete a move off the track that's been documented many many times whether Frederick wants to be consistent about that or not that is pretty much the rule case so firstly

I think Michael Massey and his role of race director was trying to stop something taking too long by going to the skewers I think that is what his motivation behind these in quotation marks offerings were to the team. Because to try and go, I'm suggesting this should happen. The problem here, Michael, and to the FAA, if you are listening, which you're definitely not,

but it'll be nice if you were, because you are friends in the podcast. I know you don't know it, but you are. Don't use certain linguisket terms such as suggestion, offering is a deal. You are the governing body. You're in charge, and I used the option in the Discord channel while this was going on. of going, imagine you're doing 90 miles an hour on a 70 zone, right? You've been pulled over by a police officer. Sorry, if you're American, I don't know how that translates,

or if you're Canadian, I don't know what speed you use. If you're speeding, you get pulled over by a police officer, and they go, right, you've been caught speeding here. I'm going to make you an offer. Say you're sorry, or I'll do something else, but I'm not sure yet because I've not told you. You know, like, the law is the law. The rules are the rules, right?

You've broken the rules, and therefore the governing body that's caught, you're breaking the rules, surely has to put their hand down and go, right, you've broken the rules. This is what's going to happen. No arguments, please. This is the decision. And then they went back to Mercedes. And they were like,

what are you think about this offer? And Mercedes are like, what? Yeah, no, we're in front of a stab and thank you. What are you on about? And the hilarious thing is Red Ball going, yeah, we'll take second place. Great, good deal. As long as our Kong's on pole.

What? How does that? The move wasn't against our Kong. How does it work? Where have you come to? this conclusion that this was the option that you were given. The miscommunication was appalling a gang from the FIA for like the seventh time. I mean that this was

the first of multiple for this Grand Prix. It was a farcical moment in Formula One. I ended up I think with the right decision the slapping third, Hamilton's second, Ockon third. Ockon, I think just being a beneficial bystander out of all of this and doing what he could to keep it clean and scale on the track. But the fact that there was any choice, any debate, any negotiation at this, at all was ridiculous.

It doesn't need it. It should have been Michael Massey comes over and goes, we've seen that there's been a move made, off track, there's got to be a restart, this is the line-up order because of this reason. You can protest it after the race

if you want to, but this is how we're going to do it. That is a simple issue of shigabing. That's how they should do it going forward. I don't understand why Noel Edmonds or he found out I put it in the chat. Howie Mandel had to get involved. That's just, that's it.

Howie Mandel had to get involved to start offering out deals right and sent. with the banker revolve just to see what position you might start. It was TV comedy, but it was a sporting mess, and it was quite embarrassing to watch.

So, yeah, this is pretty shocking from the FAA in future. Don't do it again. It's not ideal. It's not ideal. Not ideal. You might as well have just said not ideal, Sam. Yeah, everything you need to know.

Sums it up, doesn't it? As you know, if you've been listening to the podcast, for quite a while or even not quite a while just for a little bit. You'll know that we don't swear on the podcast, which is really, really difficult to do. Really. I can bleep.

No, I... Let yourself be free. Why does he get a bloat? I'm the sweary one of the three of us. I never get a bloat. If I let you have a bleep, we'll just be one, like, a long bleep for our five minutes. You've had your yearly allotment of bleep, so we don't get any more.

It would be like Christian Horgo and he's protesting over the radio. Honestly, this is ridiculous. This is utterly farcical. How on earth? And you've got two races to go in a very close championship, so you can be sure that there are more eyes on this Grand Prix than the average race in any given season. And you have just two potentially casual fans looking in

or potential new fans looking in, you have made the sport look utterly ridiculous. ridiculous. Could you imagine, and this is a, this can be an American football, football, soccer, you know, this works across the board, could you imagine a massive game and the referee going to the manager or the coach, again, use your whatever sporting term you want, can you imagine them going to them and going, well, look, we can penalise it in this way if you want, or you could face potentially worse of a penalty or better is your risk if we go up upstairs to the fourth official or to the to the to the

head referee, whatever it might be. You would never get that sort of situation in any other sport. And for good reason, because it's utterly ridiculous. I said this to my partner. We were watching the Grand Prix together. I said, and this just came to me in a random moment what Michael Massey is. He is a bad substitute teacher.

He has the right ideas. he has the right ideas and he wants he is he is good intentions good intentions all round he means well but he has got absolutely zero control and he has got absolutely no idea on how to govern i'm sorry he doesn't it is not his job to come away with with offers suggestions as he did it is his job to lay down the letter of the law when they are getting out of line. He needs to establish some control here. He needed to get over the team radio and say, you did something wrong.

It is being investigated by the stewards. You will know your penalty when they've made their decision. That's all that needed to be said. None of this. You can have this penalty if you like. And then if you don't take this, it will go to the stewards. So it won't be worse.

Up to you. That's not the business of the director. Absolutely not the business. It is utter embarrassing. harassment to the sport what happened out there today. Nothing short of that. And again, it's all about precedent because the next time something like this happens, a team might well expect that they can get a better offer from Massey if it doesn't go to the stewards. Why wouldn't they think that if it's happened this one time?

Look, Vestappan, you know, he goes behind Lewis Hamilton. That was fairly clear. Obviously, they would have done it on track if the racing had kept going and there wasn't an Esteban-Ockon in between them. but honestly, does it matter of Esteban-Ockons there? He's got to give the position back to Lewis Hamilton. The fact that Esteban-Ockon's got in between them, tough. You shouldn't have done the infraction in the first place that's got you a penalty. Too bad.

Just needs to be stricter with these things. Needs to, rather than suggest or give ideas on what could and might happen, just needs to lay down the law. This is how it is. This is the rule book. You can't do this. You can't do this. Therefore, it's going to the stewards,

and they will come up with your penalty. nothing further to add. It's more of a stern approach to this. At the moment, there's just, and maybe, I will say this, maybe it's because we've got more of an insight into these communications. Maybe these sorts of communications have been happening for years, even including his predecessor. I don't know.

But at least based on the evidence that we've got right now, he is not governing the sport in the way that I would want it to be. Anything else? and they left to mind I mean blime it look to be look poor Frederick

is he's lying in the corner over there he's absolutely battered beaten bruised verbally obviously we don't condone violence but so I'll try and give him

a couple of you know mitigating factors here one like you just pointed out Ben this is this we've we're privileged now to be able to hear these broadcasts. We don't know if this has happened before. Until I think the situation that it arose in,

i.e. under a red flag, just made it that much comoggle. But I'm absolutely 100% with you in that it's all down to like, yeah, like Sam said, like linguistically, the way he's presenting these messages. He just needs to be more forceful. It shouldn't be an offer. It should be you've got to give the place.

And we've seen it, I've absolutely seen it in the past, you know, under Charlie Whiting, a driver is overtaken off track or whatever, it's deemed an illegal overtake. Before they slam them with the penalty, they just tell the team to get their driver to let the other car back through. And even if there's another car in between, we've seen that before as well. They've had to let them both back through. So it's, it's, we've seen it before, but it shouldn't be an offer. It shouldn't be one that they have to consider because they just, I've got to.

do it. So it's like I said at the beginning of this podcast I'm more convinced of it now especially after listening to you too and thinking about it myself could be the worst just on this front alone

could be the worst race I've ever seen because it was just the decisions that were coming out today and the offers that were coming out today were just completely you know farcical and like said Ben there's probably lots more people watching this race and they were at the beginning of the season

and, you know, there might be newcomers and they might be going, well, what on earth? I struggle to follow. I know he had Lassania Gate, but I struggled to follow what was going on at points. And I've been watching this for as long as I remember, but today was completely just, I don't know,

disgraceful, just outrageous what was going on. So I'm laughing, but it's, it's just, I don't know, maybe my boy would cry if I don't laugh, but I hope they, I hope they, I hope they sort things out because it's been highlighted a couple of times this year how bad the student decisions have been.

And this wasn't even decision, but the way it's being run is not appropriate for the pinnacle of motorsport. I finally understand what Britney Spears toxic is all about. Because this is being awful. It's been a while, I guess. She was talking about the 2021 Saudi Arabian grog. And now, like the Simpsons are predicting so many things. Brickney's right there with them. You go, Brittany.

Honestly, I think, actually, I don't know if I'm maybe jumping too far. I feel like there needs to be a bit of a review into the overall management stewardship and race directoring of F1. Because it's getting to the point. I'd have done it last year, Sam. There you go. Ben's fault the plug already. Honestly.

It's not going to make the second chances. I think at the end of this season, they need to sit down a full review for the new regulation to me to put these things in place in writing of you can't do this, forget old precedents now, this is the rule, this is the penalty. It's getting silly. There are a couple of incidents

and I don't want to become a Michael Massey bashing fest. But again, like the F2 today, and we've seen it before, when there was the red flag at the start of the race, and I understand they've got to get the, want to get the medical crews there as quickly as possible. There is an ambulance to pull. onto the track.

Whilst, I know they did it all slow down because it was a red flag, but in front of the entire pack and then they were all stuck behind this like van, ambulance van, that's going down the track. And I know why, because they wanted to get the ambulance

to the scene of the accident. But, yeah, just those sort of things, it's those sort of things that can cause, you know, Jules Bianchi type crashes because it only takes one of them to not be, one of the drivers to not be concentrating,

they end up underneath the ambulance. So it's just stuff like that. Sometimes they're a bit, sketchy incidences that we seem to have sometimes and I know you can't it's impossible to alleviate get rid of any or so get rid of all risk in motor racing but you don't need those sort of things happening you know I mean it's it's about minimising isn't it versus eliminating the risk which and ultimately that's you know any any comments that are negative I guess or you know against F1, they all come from a constructive place in that we just want the best for the sport,

whether that's from a pure racing perspective or whether it's from a safety perspective. It often is from a safety perspective. It's looking out for the sport that we love so much more than anything. And we just want it to, we just want as many people to enjoy it as possible. Very simply put. But I think we'll leave it there. predictably a long one, but I think you probably knew that coming in based on everything. I feel like for a late-breaking podcast, this is a very solemn note for us to end on.

We need something, we need something slightly lesser. Oh, there's another race next week. Oh yeah, we've got a championship decider where the two drivers who are in contention are dead level on points. The first time since 1974 that that has been the case. I was waiting for a stat man. I'm waiting for a stat, man. No, you're not getting that one Because I heard Crofty say that in the race, sorry

You're not having that. No, he didn't, he got that for me. Did you text him? Yeah, yeah, me and Crofty, good mates, yeah. Oh, sorry, I thought, I mean, because I knew that one. So if I know it, it's not a sad, man. That's fair, that's fair.

But yes, remains true nonetheless. First time since 1974 that two drivers are level going into a championship fight, last race of the season. I presume I speak on behalf of the three of us when we hope to see a good fight between two excellent drivers that's decided on pace, strategy, technology, everything we love about F1. F1, fingers crossed on that.

Can't wait for the Suzuki 1990 recreation. Please no. Please no. Don't put it in the air, Harry. No, Harry's predicted it. It's not going to come true. So we are all right. Harry started to... That's true, actually. Everything he said in the previous podcast has ended up doing the opposite. it. They will be perfect. Oh, the stress. I'm so stressed. Honestly, so stress. It's a stressful week. But we'll be back midweek for a preview podcast. And then of course,

this time next week, Sunday will be back for the review podcast where we will either be celebrating Max Verstappen's first ever championship or Lewis Hamilton's record breaking eighth championship. Remains to be seen which of those happens. But Sam, if you wouldn't mind until the preview podcast midweek, get us out of here. Folks, let us know what are your thoughts on this race? Was it the worst?

Most chaotic? Most controversial. Maybe it was brilliant for you. Maybe you're Geoferg's biggest fan and you've thought, bloody hell, I love that. Let's do that every week. If you are that person,

please get in touch. I'd love to know what drives you in life. That was bizarre. It was wonderful. I hope you've enjoyed the content we brought you. There's been some quite serious topics and if you'd like to discuss

any of them with us, Twitter, the Discord, of course. Please get involved. let us know your thoughts. As Benz already said, we will be back midweek for the preview of the finale, where we have got a straight out fight for the championship. Whoever wins, that race will win the 2021 Drivers' Championship. Of course, the constructors are still also yet to be decided.

So still all to play for, it is really hotting up, and we are very excited. Make sure you stick around and join us for it in the meantime. I've been sang to say. I've been bad hockey. I've been a tasty lasagna. And remember, keep breaking late. We spoke about Michael Massey with a moustache, by the way. Find more great shows or join the team at sport-ssocial.com.

The cast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.