The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Adrian Newey LEAVING Red Bull?!

Episode Date: April 28, 2024

The LB boys discuss recent reports that Chief Technical Officer and designer genius Adrian Newey is set to leave Red Bull, considering his most likely next move and where this leaves the Red Bull outfit. They also cover the recent confirmation of Hulkenberg to Sauber/Audi in 2025, the latest on the sprint race format, and Norris' comments on the longevity of Alonso. They finish with a game of Back and Forth... FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes, historic race reviews & more! JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League: SIGN UP & create your team, and JOIN our league (join code: C3PHEQHPU04) BUY our Merch SEND us something! We have a brand new PO box - address: Late Braking Podcast, PO Box 821, TRURO TR1 9PE EMAIL us at [e-mail] & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. Welcome to the Late Breaking F1 podcast presented by Harry Ead, Sam Sage, and me, Ben Hocking. Apparently all of the news has happened. So we go away for a couple of days, Sam, and you go away for a couple of days. and Adrian Newey and Nika Holcomberg, everything's happening. Yeah, I've tried to have a little holiday, try to have a little break.

And so if you're hearing it always in the background, I do apologize, I'm in a hotel room. And apparently they've gone, release all the news while Sam isn't here. So I'm overlooking a mini golf course. I've got my feet up. You can hear clattering behind me. I'm ever so sorry for you audiophiles. I've got a cup of tea in a Starbucks mug or cup, actually. And I'm trying really hard to indulge myself into some Formula One news.

Harry, you're actually here. at home doing the business. Thank you. I mean, I'm three on a row now, right? This is, we're flying along. Yeah, don't get too cocky, kid. Is it not going to be four, is it? Should we set up a British airway inside Avios-style reward points for you when you turn up?

Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, right. You're pen, you're right. I'm not here on Wednesday. I'm not here on Wednesday. It's a valid point. Well, it was fun while it lasted, folks. It's a pleasure to have me.

Are you off to race AI cars in Abu Dhabi? Yeah. sorry, we were talking about this off air. If anyone has seen this, please let us know. But the AI cars in Abu Dhabi are perhaps the worst things I've ever seen in my life. Don't worry. We're not going to lose to the machines just yet. Now get us eventually, but not just yet.

Danny Kaffiaz still beat them, so it's like all as well. Guy could do everything. I'm glad that that's where we started with all of the news. We started with AI cars and Danny Kavirat. That feels very late-breaking. But of course, we do have all of the news. All of the news. F1 back and forth is coming up late.

on. Stefano de Manacali, some comments on spring races, so I'm sure that will be good to chat through. Nika Holkenberg signing for Salbert next year on a multi-year deal, but we'll start with Adrian Newe and multiple reports that he will be leaving Red Bull after nearly 20 years with the team. No indication yet on what his next move might be. Some teams being floated around Ferrari, Astor Martin and Mercedes, but at this point, no idea as to where he would go, if anywhere.

Who knows? Maybe he fancies putting his feet up at this point in his career. But Sam, your thoughts on the news breaking and his departure from Red Bull. I am really shocked that the news came out while I was on hot. I'm joking. I'll stop putting holiday into everything I talk about. You're an holiday, mate. Yeah, look, my feet are literally up.

Rosie's just taking a photo on me. I'll say that you guys later. I am actually kind of shocked. We've heard about this. I'll keep calling it Civil War, Red Bull Civil War. and I guess this is kind of the culmination of all the disaster that's been going on internally in that team.

I think you'd be quite naive not to assume that some of the drama that has surrounded Red Bull with the Christian Hall of controversy what's been going with Helmut Marco and Max Verstappen. Ford, I've probably got a very delicate eye placed upon the situation that the greatest designer in Formula One history

is possibly leaving the team right before their 10 year in the sport begins. It's not good times for Red Bull right now. And if you want to talk about a mechanism to level the playing field. Losing Adrian Newey, the man who sees like Neo does in the Matrix, but air particles, that is a real loss for any Formula One team. I was absolutely shocked, though, that it came so early.

I kind of thought we might get like a summer transfer kind of announcement or an end of the season. I'm going to step away for a bit. But to have it, only four races into the season really tells you that there must be some internal troubles, some turmoil going on, that he's gone. I can't wait for a natural break in either the season or my contract to make. this announcement. It feels like a get me out sooner rather than later kind of situation.

What was your immediate response to the news, Harry? Banta. A lot of banter. Love that. Yeah, I really enjoy the fact that nothing's really been confirmed, but clearly something's happened in terms of Adrian who has communicated this to Red Bull and then refuse to elaborate. Just not said anything else. Just like drop the bombshell. I'm not saying where I'm going, though. Just let everyone

else go absolutely mental about it. So, yeah, it's a if it happens and and Red Bull have to let him go that is a, that's a shocker because I still I think I've said, we said this before in terms of like a order of who you let go from Red Bull. Christian Horner's the, sorry, not Christian Honor.

Christian Horner's the bottom. Then it would be Max Stapper and then I say Adrian Newey. He's the one, he's the person that everyone wants in their team. So yeah, it's a shocker. It's just, it's, and it's very, intriguing to think or speculate, I guess, as to where he's, where he's going to go next. Because as you say, it's entirely up to him. He could go off to a Ferrari, could go off to an

Astrid Martin and Mercedes, or, and he's well within his own rights to do this, he could just retire and put his feet up, because man's done well. He's what, 65 now, right? Yeah, he could just, and he's got a garden. He's got a retirement agent. Thank you. Come on, pay into the national insurance, earn your pension. I would suggest, Adrian, oh, God. I would just, I would. suggest Adrian Nui, Rishi Sage over it, I would suggest Adrian Nui doesn't need his pension. He's probably earned enough. He's not all right for himself. He might have made a couple of quid.

Oh, good. Pension chat, with the late-breaking boys. But yeah, I mean, because given, I think what we know, that his current contract of Red Bull runs out at the end of 25, do we think? And then there'll be a period of garden leave. So even if you wanted to join the team, it could be like 20-27 before he doesn't. does. And then he will have no impact on that 27 car. It'll be a 28 car at earliest. I mean, 2028. That's a long time away. I know we're in 20. Can we sort this? I mean, it's a long time.

I know gardening leave is somewhat needed, but this is a bit ridiculous, right? Yeah, I know. Man will be almost 70 by the time you can do something again, if that is the case. So I'm assuming they'll be able to negotiate him out of it. But yeah, maybe he, that's what he's thinking. Maybe he's like, well, it's going to be so long, maybe I'll just retire. Don't know. We'll see. We will. I mean, my immediate response was one of shock and surprise. And it's not, this isn't out of the blue news.

Like, we did discuss this not too long ago that there were reports that Aston Martin had made an offer for him. So it's not like this has come out of completely nowhere. But even so, an instrumental figure in a team like Red Bull for nearly 20 years deciding to leave, it is massive news. honestly, this whole Red Bull situation, it needs proper investigating how a team can be doing so well on track and be in such disarray and meltdown behind the scenes. It beggars belief because, you know, we've had big names leave teams before. Like, you know, we've had Lewis Hamilton very recently leave Mercedes. We've had Schumacher leave Ferrari.

But in all of these instances, it's come after the dominant period has ended. Like Lewis Hamilton has decided to leave Mercedes, yes. But by the time he's left, he will have done three seasons essentially where Mercedes have not been in those championship winning years. And similarly with, I guess you could say with him leaving McLaren as well, Lewis Hamilton. Like he left that team after they hadn't really competed for a championship for a number of years. Michael Schumacher left Ferrari and went into a retirement, but only after two years of not winning a title. And yet here we are with Rediscus.

Red Bull and they are in the midst of arguably the most dominant run in the history of this sport. I don't want to say 2024 is done before it's actually done. I mean, let's wait until it plays out. But there is a reasonable chance by the end of 2024 that Red Bull will have had by the most dominant three-year stretch in F-1 history. It's very difficult if 2024 continues as it started to say there has been, in 2022 to 2024, a three-year period has there ever been? been such dominance in the sport? Possibly not. And yet they are in utter disarray behind the

scenes. It is honestly baffling how this domino effect has happened, all starting with Christian Horner and the case that was dismissed against him. And we almost saw it happen with Helmut Marco leaving the team or being suspended. We almost saw it with Max Verstappen leaving the team. And who knows, that's not resolved yet as far as we're aware. It's just honestly, how it's got to this point is a bit crazy. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see what his next move is. Sam, do you have an instinct on what that might be? It's really hard to tell. I think the historic significance of Adrian Newey cannot be understated enough. And what Red Bull are potentially losing here could shake the very foundations on which that team are built on. When you look at the

fact that, you know, he was chief designer at Williams from 91 to 96, and because of that, they essentially won, what, five constructors winning championships in a row. He then goes to McLaren. They win in 98, of course. And I'd argue that the car that alongside Hamilton was driving, after he left was still built upon his principles. And then he goes to Red Bull, of course, and designs the 10, 11, 12, 13 winning cars. And then designs the 2022, 2023 and the current cars as well.

The guy, everything he touches, essentially. turns into racing gold. So wherever he goes next, it's almost like, you know, the golden egg, the golden goose that, you know, you lay the perfect egg and you're going to end up hatching a world championship. It really does feel like it could be that significant. What's crazy about this is no matter who you are in motorsport, surely you stick an offering, surely you put a cheeky little offer on the table and say, hello, Adrian, yeah, I know that we're hars and we haven't even got, you know, podium's, God knows wing. But do you fancy

come into design for us? And Dressy, would you not go, hello, we're looking at challenging. You strengthen our bid. Audi, I know we're about to enter, but you fancy popping up by? Fancy setting something up. And those are just teams that, you know,

are not even challenging at the front. But if you're a McLaren, who he's already got previous with, if you're a Mercedes, if you're a Ferrari, would you not sit there and go? This man could turn our fortunes around. This guy could be the key that unlocks fortune for the next five or six seasons. And I imagine with the gardening leave stuff,

there must be a way to buy out, buy out the clause. It will cost a lot of money, of course, but you hear it in other sports all the time. A football reference from the UK is that Dan Ashworth, the sporting director of Newcastle United. He wants to leave in Manchester United. He's on gardening leave at the moment. And the Manchester United Board are debating with Newcastle or what the cost could be to essentially end gardening leave and bring him back to work. Contracts are contracts. They're all bits of pay. they can be put to another void if an agreement is put in place. So if someone like Ferrari are willing to go, well, HP have turned up and they're paying

all of our bliming cost cap money, we'll put that money into buying Adrian Nui's gardening leave out, why wouldn't you do it? If it sets you up for the next few years, why would you not make that investment? So where he goes is still a bit of an unknown, but his options are absolutely endless. I'd argue he has got more opportunity than any other driver almost ever in Formula One. What do you think, Harry? Any likely destinations? It's Ferrari, surely.

I do. Pretty confident? I'm not pretty confident because I agree with Sam entirely. Every team out there doesn't matter if we got no money at all like a house. There wouldn't happen there because Gene Hass is, it'll be a new person. Sorry, I'm thinking of swigger tea at the wrong time then. Oh, that got me. Oh, boy.

they've gone to Gene. Gene, there's a perfect opportunity here. But could get the most successful effort designer in the world. And Gene goes, no. Adrian who? Adrian, he'll be new. I'm not heard of that guy.

Yeah, but so you're right. I think every team, and Audi was another one popped into my head and Aston Martin too. They must be, his phone must be ringing a lot at the moment.

But I just feel like Ferrari is his natural destination. He'll have ticked off I know they're not all the big three anymore, but the big three in terms of McLaren, Williams, Ferrari, it just seems to make sense to me, but, you know,

we didn't expect this to happen anyway, so he could go literally anywhere. And I think he just want another project. So all of them would be. Ferrari would be, Aster Martin, Aldi, doesn't matter, but I just get the feeling he would, if he does,

then Freddie Vass is a god. Signs Lewis Hamilton, and Adrian Huey, goodness me. That must be third. They'll still be third. They'll find a way. I don't know. Engings is full of pasta.

That's why. Yeah. I mean, so I guess it's what he wants to do. And what's a privileged position he's in to be so wanted. But it's entirely up to entirely up to him. So, yeah, it's tricky to see. but I do think Ferrari would be the most obvious option here. But yeah, we'll see.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think ultimately his destination will be a team that, I think it will be a factory team. I'm not sure who it will be, but I don't see him go into a place where they are a customer team. So for example, McLaren, I don't think is going to happen because at this stage in his career, I don't think he wants the restriction.

and to be clear, I guess, with Aston Martin as well, they're technically not a factory team, but obviously they're getting Honda engines and they're only getting Honda engines. So I think it will either be a factory team or someone that has just got exclusive use of an engine. I think Ferrari is very likely, and at this point I would probably say is the most likely.

I think it will be a two-horse race. I think it will be Ferrari or Aston Martin. We know that Aster Martin have expressed interest in him in the past, and I have little doubt that Lawrence Stroll would open up his checkbook to make this happen. Like you say, a team will probably have to pay a good amount of money to get him out of that gardening leave, or at least some of that gardening leave. But it's Adrian Newey and it's probably, it's almost definitely going to be worth it for whoever that team is. I think Astor Martin would be prepared to pay the price.

And I think Ferrari would as well. So I think those two are potentially the most likely. But it's difficult. it is difficult to put into terms how important this is. Like, people will, Adrian Nui has spoken about a lot, but I think Sam, you said words to this effect in the past,

and I 100% agree with it, which is Adrian Nui leaving Red Bull is more impactful than Lewis Hamilton leaving Mercedes. As mad as that sounds, at least in terms of success, you know, Lewis Hamilton in terms of publicity, that move will definitely outrank whatever, Adrian Newey does.

But in terms of actual impact on winning, I don't think there's one person on the grid that could move from one team to another team that would have as much of an impact. It's right up there. I think the crazy thing about Formula One, of course, is you could be the greatest driver to ever grace a racetrack.

But if you haven't got the machinery under you to complement your abilities, then you're never going to be better than a midfield runner. Lewis Hamilton could be, you know, statistically, the greatest driver of all time. But if they spent their entire career racing around in the Alpine at the moment, we never know it.

We go, they're very good. But we don't know what they could achieve. So having someone like Adrian Newey on the cards who can create you, you know, it's like, I imagine it's up when Jordan built his likes, you know, that's how big that this was. This is, you know, he has the ability to transform, to revolutionize someone's career if they get it in the right time frame. If the Clare's still at Ferrari and Newey goes to Ferrari and five years. time, LeClerc could be a five-time world champion. You know, that is a plausible period of history or the future rather that we could be seeing.

What's confusing me, though, in all this chat that we've all had, and I've said it time and time again, why aren't Mercedes putting themselves in the ring? Why are they not making moves to transform their internal organization to make sure that this fits? They're moaning or winching and they don't know what's going on with the car and they don't understand it. They've got all the money on the earth. Why aren't you moving mountains to make this happen when you know,

it's probably a 99% guarantee that you'll find success with this man in your team. I don't understand why they're not moving forward to try and stick. They've lost Hamilton, agreed that it's not as important as a designer, the ultimate designer. So what I'm not bringing in the ultimate designer? It just doesn't make sense to me. This is where they sign him. Yeah. Well, fair play.

Fair play if they do. Well done. That's what they should be doing. But I guess they must be like, Toto Wolves not an idiot. I'm sure he's having those conversations. But I guess like I said, it's up to here. to Adrian Newey rather than anyone else. You can move as many mountains as he want.

Toto Wolf is a big mountain mover, I've heard. I actually heard he's a pumper-knicker lover. Okay, move on. Harry, do you think that there's almost, as well as Adrian Newee leaving, is perhaps just as much of a danger for Red Bull, the knock-on effect of other smart people within that organisation,

looking at what Adrian Newey's deciding and saying, well, maybe we should, should follow him. Maybe we should also consider other opportunities. I think there is that risk. And you also risk losing your star driver. And I still rank Adrianian above Verstappen in terms of importance here. But if Verstappen, if Nui leaves and Vestappen's like, well, this might not, this, this might be as good as it gets here. Then he may go somewhere else. And yeah, you're right with other people that work within the design team and things like that. This might be writing on the wall, a writing on the wall moment for them. So I know previously,

Christian Horner said unless I've made it but he said they would survive without him or worse to that effect I think so which yeah they had they've built up a they've built up a

you know a bigger structure now than they ever used to have when they first started and when they first got Adrian Newee but there's a reason Christian Horner went for Adrian Newey and persistently went after him and you know in the early

early naughties at the end of 2004 was because he's so sought after So there is a risk, I think, that people may just think, well, this is the end of the glory period. And we're going to go off elsewhere now. So it could have quite a big knock on effect. I think we're saying that you can survive without him and just use what's been learned. Yes, I think that could, in the short term, yes. But as a long-term solution, I don't think that's going to work because you do risk other people going. And I might be really wrong, usually am. But is, am I right and thinking. that Newey is actually contracted

as part of his own design house, right? He's not technically a full-time employee of Red Bull, but his design house is part of their makeup. And technically, I don't know if he comes down of the cost of cut because of this, but you're not just losing Newey, if that's the case. I imagine he has a very trusky team

of designers around him that make up his excellence, right? He must have people he works with very closely. It's not just him you're losing. It's not just one pair of hands. I don't know if it's just him in that. Because he costs so much, basically. I don't know. You might be right on that one, but I've actually no idea. Anyway, that's, um, so overall, pretty shocking. Probably going to have a bit of an

impact, isn't it? Conclusion from LB. Yeah, it might. It might do all right. Might do. Um, well, that's big news number one covered off on the other side of this break. Big news number two, Nika Holcomberg, moving away from Hass and joining Salba. I like the idea that as a news channel, that's how we identify our headlines. Big news number two coming up. I'm going to run with it. Before we get into the news of Nika Holkenberg, joining Salber and then Audi for 2026,

Patreon. Have we got Patreon? I think we do. I have heard, though, it's incredibly expensive, I think. Considering how much stuff you get for it, it must cost a fortune. Harry, I've seen you on there. You must spend a fortune on it.

Yeah, yeah, well, because the amount of content that comes out of that Patreon channel, by the like breaking podcasts, I reckon monthly, that must be worth around £250, because it's just pure excellence all the time. Honestly, that's a really fair price to pay for it. And it's not that. Is it not being?

How much is it, man? Maybe 200. 235. We've got three tiers, but you're not going to be shilling out 250. It would be more like, divide that by a large number. divide that by like 25 and you're about there. By 25, you've got to be mad. So what, you're telling me, the highest tier,

how much is the highest tier on the late breaking Patreon? Ben, how much is it worth a month? It's nine pounds. You get out of town. Yeah, I'm glad I got out of a town because I am shocked. That is unreal value for money. We really appreciate everyone who's already signed up. And we appreciate anyone who is going to sign off

of the back of this plug because it's an absolute mess. But there is plenty on there to enjoy. And then of course with Miami Grand Prix coming up, we'll have power rankings off the back of that as well. All episodes add free. I won't run through every single benefit because I'd be here until the end of the show. But we really do appreciate everyone who decides to give it a go.

Nika Holcombberg. He's decided to move away from Hass at the end of 2024. He'll be joining Salba for 2025 on a multi-year deal, which of course means he'll be there for when the team transitions to be Audi in 2026, as part of the new regulations. This has been somewhat rumoured for a little bit, but this is actually happening now. Sam, are you surprised by the news?

I'm not surprised, but I am impressed with Gishiko Holgerberg. I know that sounds ridiculous, but the journey that that man has come on since being a youngster in the sport where a lot of people thought that he could go on to be something really special. Of course, he starts his career with Williams. He ends up moving to Force India. And then he goes back to Salba, where he's, of course, technically going now with Audi, goes back to Force India.

And then you just see the chopping and changing. Is it Reno for a couple of years? And then after that, you think, well, where next for him after a big giant like Reno? Well, it doesn't look good. He goes to Racing Point. And then he's off the grid. And then he's a reserve driver. And they goes to Haas.

And no disrespect to Haas. But they've got exactly been the tour to Force of Formula One. over the last few years. Shocking news, if you knew, I'm sure. But the fact that he's now possibly found himself in a, not just a manufacturing giant, but a constructor, you know, an OEM, someone who's going to make their own engine,

someone that in theory could do something like what Braun did or like Mercedes have done. And they are bringing this full outfit to the sport. He's not getting himself another one-year deal that extends his time in Formula One. He's going to be part of an automotive giant. And this for someone like Nika Holgerberg, let's say he retires in three or four years time.

He's carried, right? If he's an ambassador frowning out for the rest of his life, he's got work opportunities there, he's got other races that he can take part in outside of F1. The level of opportunity that this is for Nika Holgerberg cannot be overstated. For a guy that's been struggling in midfield cars, making the odd great impression near the top of the field,

to never have a podium in the sport, this could unlock the level of talent that I do think he has. And he's been showing that off over the last couple of seasons. He's been phenomenal. Qualifying as being sublime. And I do think that his race pace, if given the car, is so, so strong. He's still definitely the best driver in that midfield pack at the moment, maybe alongside Yuki Snow over the first few races of this season. He's excellent. And I'm so glad that even at his age now, he's getting a chance to stretch his legs and he's going to settle into a long-term opportunity. And he could make something of this. I'll be interested in his teammates going to be. We'll get on to that. But I really do think that if that Audi car performs, we could see Nick a about the front. What do you think, Harry? Do you think this is a smart move by both parties? Yeah, I mean, Renaissance man, Nikkah Hoganberg,

it's, it is, it is impressive how this, how this is turned around for him, from going from not having a drive at the end of 2019, no drive at all, to now be signing for what will eventually be the next big manufacturer in Formula One is quite impressive turnaround. And there are a lot of factors in here,

which, you know, there's a bit of luck involved, but sometimes you just need a bit of luck. So obviously during the COVID years, you had a couple of standing performances for forcing, for Racing Point and then Aston Martin as well, because he was their reserve driver, which certainly helped his scores and just kept him on the radar,

which I think had that not happened, people may, no offence, Nico, people may have just forgotten about him. So I think that helped. But he's gone about, you know, since coming back with Haas last year, he's just gone about things very, not under the radar, but just got just got on with it and just delivered solid good performances all the time. And the Hat, no offense to Haas, but the Hassi was just a way back in for him, wasn't it? He'd a

signed for anyone to get back on the grid, I imagine. But the way he's done it is, his approach has been, I think, I'll sign for whatever team. I'll do what I, and I'll just do what I can in that car. And he has, and what he has been doing, to be honest, it's been pretty impressive. Last year, I thought it was actually very impressive and he was just let down by the fact the House couldn't do a race ever

because he kept Colorado flying so well. But this year, now that the car can work a bit better in races, and he's delivering. I know he's got like four points, but that doesn't really reflect how well he's been driving. So from Saoberg and Audi side, this is a solid, dependable driver for their,

for their, you know, entry back into F1. He's a German driver as well. which helps things from, you know, marketing point of view, it makes sense. But it's, yeah, from Holkenberg side, this could be, this could finally be, I know, feel like we said this before, because he said it with Renault. Because when he signed for them, that seemed like maybe this was the big thing. But this could finally be his chance for some success. I mean, good Lord, the day, if he does get a podium one day, everything's going to melt.

Because we've been waiting so long for that man to get on the podium when he should have done before, way before this. But, yeah, so I sincerely hope it does work out for him. But yeah, it's, I think from both sides, it's a great move for Holkenberg, obviously. Who manages him, by the way, because they've done very well.

I don't know who. I've heard God, maybe. Negotiation powers are excellent in the Holkenberg camp. Devying intervention has taken place to allow that man for continued success. Exactly. So, I'll tell you what, if it becomes a potential signs Holkenberg lineup at Audi.

I've seen worse. I've seen worse combinations of drivers. So yeah, good move from both sides. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. Holkenberg has done a great job for Hass, and I agree with your point, Harry, that he did a great job last year, and there was nothing he could do about that sinking

Hass in all of those races, where it'd start in 9th and then finish in 18th. But I think he did a really good job last year. He's doing a really good job this year. I always think like the sign that someone is doing really well is that it doesn't get spoken about. It's the same like there's a reason Maxfussappen never features in the driver of the day votes when it comes to the public at large. It's because everyone's just used to him winning by 30 seconds. And it's the same with Nika Holkenberg to an extent in that, you know, whenever when the Salber duo did very well in qualifying in China, we made a point of it because it's a rarity.

and if, let's just say, Daniel Ricardo were to make a Q3 in Miami, we'd make a point out of it. Nika Holcombberg gets into Q3 and barely anything he's said because it's just become the norm for him. But it's still a really impressive achievement every single time he does it, given the car he's in. And people like to focus as well on the podium stat and how he's done over 200 races in F1, never been on a podium.

And he's quite comfortably clear of the next best or the next personal on that list. But realistically, he's at 208 starts in F1. How many of them could he have had a podium at? I'm not saying that he shouldn't have had a podium at this point because he's had teammates who have got podium, Sergio Perez, most notably. But when we say, like, he hasn't had a podium in 208 races, how many could he have got a podium in?

Five? I don't know. It's such a small percentage of the races he's done. And I think it diminishes what a good job he has done throughout his career. career. The last thing I want to say, because I do think it is a positive for both parties, I think this is somewhat the Fernando Alonzo effect, because Nico Hulcombeau would be 38 years old when he's at Salba in a couple of, at Audi in 2026, which I don't know. I feel like Fernando Alonzo and the lack of diminishing returns that he's had going into his 40s might have had

some sort of impact on giving Audi the confidence that the same thing might happen. We're not saying Holkenberg's the same level as Alonzo, obviously, but what we're looking at is, is there a drop-off as they get into their 40s or into their late 30s? There might be an impact of Fernando Alonzo not having had that. I've got a really big question to ask Formula One, actually. Holkenberg, Audi, Mercedes. Hockenheim, Weng.

Please. What more doing it? need? What more interest do you need from a nation now to put a bloody race track from their nation on the calendar? Please bring it back. I've also just twigged. The guy who, again, very quiet at the moment, but he's working under the radar, is Andrea Seidel at Sauba, which will be Audi. And those two work together because Holgenberg did a lot with Porsche, didn't he? Oh, yeah, good show. He was good there as well. He won it. So. Yeah, that is what I class is good. Yeah. Did an all right job.

I got over the line before everyone else did. It's wrong done. Yeah, Holkenberg LeMond winner is something we'd just forget. But yes, you did. At the same time as being an F1 as well, which is pretty impressive. Yeah. Yeah, anyway.

Triple crown, Gwen. Yes. Goodness me. Holkenberg did the N. 500. Off we go. And Winnie Monaco. Can you imagine if he won the Indy 500 and the thing that let him down was the F1?

Over 200 appearances. And that it does one race at each other series and wings them all. Yeah, yeah. That would be very neat, Hulkenberg. I can't wait for him to join Audi in 2026, and Olly Berman's just mopping up podiums for Hasse. Imagine.

Imagine if Kamatsu's cooked, and all he's serving up at the restaurant is podium after podium. It's also on special today. Second place for O'E Baron. Holkabberg weeping in the corner into his lovely Audi race suit, I imagine. Never doubt cook Matsu. Oh, that's no. No.

No. Yeah. Anyway, producer, I like that one. Moving on. Of the two drivers that are currently with Salba, Valtrey Bottas and Joe Guan Yu, Harry, who do you think is more at risk?

Are they both at risk at this point? I think they're both at risk. I'd say Joe Guan Yu is probably more at risk. For next year, I see they're going to keep Bottas, aren't they? Surely. And this is no offense to Joe, but I just think they will

and see how that goes. And then they'll make a decision. or they'll sign signed in the next week probably and then we'll look like idiots. But out of the two, I think probably Joe is the one that's most at risk here. I did see someone, can't remember, but it might have been race fans or Keithy runs race fans, but it made the point that F1 made quite a big deal

at the weekend about Joe Guan Yu. Yes. Being at the Chinese GP for the first time. And is it because it might be the last time as well? Did they already know about this? So, I don't know. That's being skeptical. but yeah, you get the feeling that if they're going to keep either of them, it'll be Botas.

Because actually Bottas is in pretty good form in the moment. So yeah, you keep botty. You have a Botas Holkenberg lineup for next year. And then you see where you go. Again, I feel like that. It won't be enough if if signs is because they're going to have some, unless signs is at Red Bull, then that makes things easier for Botas. But if signs is a free agent and then maybe it's over for both of them.

But yeah, most of the rest of the show you at the moment. Should probably be, it's a good time to flag as well. At the beginning of April, we made our predictions as to what the 2025 grid would look like. It's not the end of April and we're all wrong. It's so late breaking that we're all wrong immediately. Well done, all of us. Sam, who's more at risk, do you think? I think it entirely depends on what Audi long term want to achieve.

Do they want the both drivers to have on-track success? Now, I feel like having Holkenberg in one seat is a great start. But, you know, does the line up look very, very weak all of a sudden if you have a Zhou Guan Yu Holkenberg line up potentially. But look at the market that you're selling in there. Holgerberg, of course, covers Europe fantastically with that German-centric front. But then what goes on in China, right? The market's so big.

You saw the turnout at Shanghai and the reception that Joe picked up. Do Audi see China as a key market? it. Are they looking to retail their cars there? And that sounds sad, but that is a very important question. Is the biggest gain for Audi actually marketing? And do they go, well, your show isn't pulling in the points, but we are getting millions and millions of revenue based off Audi's becoming one of the best-selling cars in the most populated country in the world, potentially. Equally, are they trying to do what Ashton Martin saw the pickup of last year and go, well, if we have two really good drivers, Ashton Martin don't, but go with me.

Actually, we start raking in points and podiums and things like that, and we sign Valtry Botas or potentially Car Science, of course. Then does Audi on racetrack doing really, really well, reflecting Audi car sales doing really, really well, because it shows high performance, it shows good reliability, it's a cool image to have. You've seen how well Ascom Martin have picked up since I've long so picked up all those podiums. It is a clear measure of success. And I imagine that the Mercedes brand saw a very much similar pickup.

when Lewis Hamilton started to win world championships there. So I think Joe's more at risk, and I think they'll use the Aston Martin-Moseg's case done as examples. But Valtrey Bottas hasn't got this sewn up, you know, with Carlos Sunks waiting in the wings, and there are a number of other very talented drivers that are kind of skiffing about for seats, whether they have one already or not.

There's rumours of Gassi going to Williams, perhaps. Could we see him maybe going to Aldine Stairs? You know, it's all possible. He's not got this one sewn up. So he's got to keep putting in the performances. He's got to maintain the form. that he's started with so brilliantly. But I think if Joe has any chance of staying in that seat,

he's got to start beating Botas as a bare minimum. Can't believe KMAG's blagged himself another year. I thought Dan Astig yet. Well, yeah, we'll move on to what that might mean for Hass in a moment. I tend to think, I agree with what you say, Sam. It is probably a Valdry Bottas is doing a better job in the car versus Joe Guan Yu and the sponsorship opportunity and which one wins out. I've got to be honest, I'd be surprised if either of them are in the car in 2026,

but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them stays for 2025, in which case, I think it's a really tough call. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept Joe Guan Yu and let Bottas go. Not that I think that that would be a good idea, but if sponsorship is, if Joe's sponsorship can outweigh what Bottas is doing on track, then maybe that's the direction they go. I'm genuinely not sure. I should also just make the almost standard point at this stage say that I don't know if you're aware Selba, but you've got Teo Porcere in your junior programme.

Oh, here you go. The Ben Hocke and Teo Porchere propaganda argument pops back up once again. I don't need to do propaganda. He's won the F2 title. That's not enough. You've seen it clear as day. That success is not enough in Formula One anymore. Man's ripping it up at Indy car now.

It doesn't matter. Yeah, true. Yeah. Anyway, so, you know, consider that maybe. For Hass, Beeman and Magnuson for next year, Sam? Yeah, I mean, I think they've reduced their quality if that is the overall lineup.

Ollie Behrman, of course, had a fantastic one-off performance around Saudi, and I don't want to understated just how good I thought he was. But there's still a lot to learn. There's a lot to develop. And if we're saying that people like Oscar Piaastri, who we rate incredibly highly as a very young driver, is struggling against the lights of Landon Norris.

It's going to take time for Behrman to settle in. And I'd argue that Haas is not as an enjoyable and all-inclusive atmosphere as what maybe McLaren is where Pliastri is. So it's going to take some time. It's going to need some development. I'm not sure we're going to see the next Charler-Clair on our hands or he's going to jump up within one season to Ferrari, for example.

And Magnuson, Mr. Box Office, where we saw in China alone what that man could suddenly be capable of when the kill switch is suddenly engaged and he desires to turn it to Terminator. The guy goes from being Mr. Aulapult around and help my teammates score. points to, I've got a 10 second penalty and I'm outside the point so the world must end. And I'm not sure that that makes for a solid elder driver that you can

rely on. So Kamaag I think has maybe gotten away with it, but I don't know if there's guarantees that he stays there. Kermatsi might have other plans in mind, he might want to go down a different direction. But with all the changes that are going on, I do think it's probably slightly more favourable for him that he gets away with it just because

it will be another moving cog in an already very complicated machine. And Gene Haas, he does tape too well to new cogs in his machine. He doesn't know what's going on otherwise. So, yeah, KMAG probably just gets away with it. Well, Harry, you said that KMAG has blagged another year, but I think you're wrong because, as we know with Hass, they either replace no drivers or they replace two drivers. So I think, I think Magnuson's done. I think he's out of here. Has, look, listen, you don't have to replace them. But that's how it works. That's how contract works.

fuck of them gone so they're like sorry kevin off you go kevin's like why you're joined right it works you're attached you lost once go yeah look i i agree i think there are probably other solid drivers out there that you could replace magnuson with but if they're going to bring in bareman which seems like the obvious choice and i think they probably will um keep keep somebody's been there you don't have to do it forever just maybe for another year so i think it's probably sensible enough to keep my, and I'm being unfair when I say he's blacked another year, but it's sensible to keep Manxen there for next year. If you've got a rookie coming in, like, again, I'd like to repeat, you don't need to have two rookies and you don't need to also just keep the same people

all the time. Mix a match. I reckon, I reckon Grojean could come back. I mean, entirely possible. That's not goody errors. Those three drivers are a consular lazy Susan of contracts when it goes into Haas. Anyway, so I bet if Grosjean's actually phoned them. Do you reckon? There he has. Bonjour, lads.

Need a driver? Yeah, I think a Magnuson-Berman lineup probably makes sense for next year. Keep some consistency because the things that Hasse have had going on and this year is way better

than last year. But the problems I've had with that with their car and developing that car, you need a driver that's driven some of your other cars. And I think it makes sense to keep Magnuson on for a bit whilst they keep developing developing. So yeah, Maglinson makes sense.

Again, I'm not... He could just still be there forever. I don't know. I keep thinking what this will be his last year in F1, but somehow he just, he survives. He's like the cockroach of F1. Yeah, he'll make it through the nuclear war and Formula 1 will fail.

I think what's worrying, though, for Haas, is Ben and, of course, would be a loan-type deal for Ferrari long term in the future if he doesn't press. Magnuson isn't really good enough to be sticking around forever. If they don't replace Magison

now for a long term option, then they might end up having to replace both drivers anyway, going into the 2026 season. And I'm not saying Ben will be going after one season, but it is a possibility. And that leads in a really dangerous position when they've got brand new regulations, brand new car, you know,

the teams have a lot of changes, and then they're going to have another two new drivers. That's a lot to contend with when you already are struggling to put together five races in a row that are considered all right. I sincerely hope they do sign betterment just so we get more reaction shots

of his very nervous dad that we had in Saudi because that was excellent. I enjoy F1 dadcams. Goes all the way back to Felipe. Yeah, Felipe Max's dad is a star. He was furious every time he was filmed. And then Anthony Hamilton would sit there with the calmest expression

on his face forever. Oh dear. Goodness me. I think it's fair for Hasse to have some sort of backup plan because, like you say, it would be a loan deal with Olly Berman. I think the thing that will give Hasse some encouragement that it might be a long-term loan deal is that with Lewis Hamilton saying, I'm probably going to race into my 40s now and Chau LeClaire is obviously going to be there forever because he doesn't know how to leave. Based on that, I'd be surprised if that Ferrari lineup was going to change in the short to medium term. but things can change very quickly in F1.

So it's always wise to have some sort of continuation plan when it comes to your driver line up. I think Berman and Magnuson makes the most sense at this point for the reasons you stated. With Berman, I think they've been lining him up for that seat for the last year in reality that they gave him some FP1 outings last year. They're giving him like six FP1 outings this year, even before this news was announced.

I would be surprised if they didn't go with Bearman. And Magnuson, yeah, like you say, he just finds a way to stick around, doesn't he? And Hasse have seen what has happened before by chaining both of their cars. I think Magnuson this year has proven, not that he's proven he's as good as Holcomburg, but he's proven he's a team player. And I think that will buy him one more year, but has one more year. not two, not three, not 12, one, please. What's the chop of change?

Going back to Charles LeCler, do you think Ferrari set up his hotel room like an escape room so he can never get out? I think they did at first, but now it's Stockholm Syndrome. That makes sense, yeah. You've got to have a developmental plan for someone that's, I suppose. Oh, Shal, one day. I'll tell you what, who's on the phone to Adrian Newey,

number one, Shal LaCleur? And no one's on the phone to be quicker than Charlotte. I love it here, please. Right, we'll take out our next break on the other side. We're chatting sprint races. Yay. Okay, welcome back. Stefano Domenicali, F1C,

has had some comments about sprint races. He was asked by Sky whether he was considering proposing more sprint races on the calendar. Domenicali's response was, why not? He said, I would say this is great because it keeps the tension on every day. And this is something that we will discuss in the future. Now, let's see how this year with the sprints in the way that we've decided this year will go. But that is a point of discussion. Harry, how many sprint races do you think he's going to aim for?

And why is he wrong? He's going to, they're going to try and get every weekend to be a sprint race, aren't they? This is where we're heading. You think? Oh. Is he watching something different every time we have a sprint race? I don't understand. Stefano

What are you The tension What tension It takes away the tension Because as we said before You just watch the mini The mini race basically So you know what's happening

The next day It doesn't matter God Anyway He's a I don't know how many He's gonna get to aim for It does feel like

They're aiming for Halflet Maybe they'll double it But they go for 12 At least You get half the calendar As a sprint race it should be hell

I don't want that Does anyone want that Oh god Anyway Yeah terrible idea Obviously we don't like sprint races here Apparently some people do Which I find interesting

But you know You're entitled to your opinion Even if it's interesting Even if you're wrong Yeah I just From F1 side It's just more

more revenue, isn't it? Because you're getting people watching F1 technically for longer every weekend when they wouldn't be, which I guess is their ultimate aim out of this. And I understand it from that point of view. But actually, you're doing it for the wrong reasons because they suck. They just suck. And I hate them. Please stop having sprint races.

And especially, I'm going to whinge about the time here, at terrible timed Grand Prix because we've had China and now we've got Miami. It's either really early or really late. sort it out. Anyway, terrible idea. All positive then. Sam? Yeah, I think Domenicali's turned into

Oprah Winfrey, really, with the, you get a sprint race and you get a sprint race, and you get a sprint race. I think it's just gone mad with power of sprint races. The effect of them needs to be studied. It came out quite clearly. This is it that Cota, who had a sprint race,

came out and said, we haven't sold any more tickets because we've suddenly got a sprint race. and this might be a just me thing but let me know guys if you agree when we had the sprint race at China I kind of felt like I'd eaten my pudding before my dinner and I kind of it spoiled the main meal for me

I had a bit too much I couldn't eat my lovely dinner on Sunday and I didn't like that feeling I kind of got to the end of the weekend and I was bit like oh even me who's a huge F1 fan I'm a bit tuckered out I need a little bit of a rest you know sorry Harry gone I just said just an example and I think you're totally right here.

And I don't think the drivers like it either. And one example of this, Fernando Alonso cares, he does not care about a sprint race because he just chucks his car about in a sprint race like it doesn't matter. Not a Scooby. He did that in Belgium?

Exactly. He just fell off, didn't he? Just fell off the road. I've had enough of this. Whatever, I'm done. And that's what I mean. It's just, it's such a nothing race. And for us as well, you like say,

yeah, there's a good analogy, Sam. You're eating your pudding before you dinner. One of your better ones, actually. Thank you. I appreciate that. it's because I'm a holiday and relax. But yeah, I don't also

just drives around all the rules turned off. There's any else right. Yeah, exactly. He doesn't care if he hits the wall

or if he drives either someone or doesn't score any points at all he's not bothered. I'd do it properly tomorrow. Tomorrow is the real quiz. And so I just see what's the point? He doesn't mean anything.

The points are pathetically low. You look at Hamilton when he scored that second place he picks up seven points while he had the Naffis qualifying for the real race and barely scores anything. And George Russell basically takes it all back by being sixth in the main Grand Prix.

Make it mean something else. Do a sprint race championship we've got to have it. Get reserve drivers in. Do reverse quiz. Do something that entirely separates it from the actual main event that's enjoyable that we've all turned up for for over 70 years now. There's a reason why that formula works. And this one isn't really being taking off too well.

I hate them. I don't need 18 sprint races. I think you'll at least go for half. I think you'll try and push for more. And all of a sudden, it's like this has turned into a real fascination and obsession for him. I hate it. So please make it stop. Yeah, my instinct is that Domenicali will try and get, I've said 10.

I think he'll try and get 10 on the grid next year, given that we basically had no change between 2023 and 2024. We've got six this year. We had six last year. The thing is, for Domenicali and for others, other senior figures within F1, public opinion doesn't matter because either the public will support sprint races or not for the first time, they'll just deliver this rigged survey where they'll say, oh yeah, what do you think about sprint races? Here are your two options.

Option A is I love sprint races or option B is I hate sprint races, but I also love killing animals. It's like, okay, I'll go with option A then. Thanks. Honestly, Ben, mass extinction at this point feels like the better option. Sorry to all the pelicans and puffins out there, you're gone. It's about time they sacrifice themselves for the better cause. I've never seen Ben Ponder responds more than that.

It's a tough one, but yeah, Sprints have reached that point. I understand the point of wanting to provide people with the best people with the best possible entertainment. But I just, and I've never got this argument is that, and sorry David Croft to single you out on this, because I know you're not the only one, but David Croft saying after the sprint quality or after the sprint race saying, well, that was more fun than FP2, wasn't it? It's like, yes, of course it is. But like, it's the same thing as saying, okay, I've got an apple and an orange and it's like

going to the apple, you are doing a better job of being an apple. It's like, yes, of course it is, because it is an apple. it's not, it's an orange is doing something different. Like a practice is not supposed to be entertaining. There's a reason why, for example, let's bring football into this, right? Sam, have you ever said on a Thursday morning when Newcastle been training behind closed doors, have you ever said, damn, wish they'd have just done a match instead? Funny enough, Ben, that's never come out of my mouth.

Of course it hasn't because practice is meant to be practice. and in other sports, it's not pitched as something that it isn't. With F1, it's the same with preseason testing. People watch preseason testing for the first time and go, wow, it's a bit dull, isn't it? Yeah, it's supposed to be dull. It's preseason testing. Like, it's not supposed to be a competitive session. But because we televise it, people then expect more from these sessions.

And we're just getting to that same point again. Yes, we could have 12 races in a week and then it'd all be more entertaining than free practice. no one's disagreeing with that. But like you say, it's the whole taking away from the race itself. It just doesn't matter to them though, though. It just doesn't matter what the public opinion is. They'll do it anyway. There's too much of a good thing, isn't there?

Too much excitement means that nothing is actually exciting. If you were on holiday every single day of your life, you'd probably be like, I actually miss home. I actually wouldn't mind put my feet up in my own house and having a cup of tea and enjoying myself in my home. But one holiday a year, you go, I'm really looking forward to my one holiday a year. And sprint race is like,

having a mini holiday next to your really big holiday and going, I'm kind of tired now. I wouldn't mind going home in between my two holidays because actually I've got jet lag and I'm not eating the right food and no one makes a good cup of tea around here. But I just want the big holiday. And the race on a Sunday is the big holiday that I look forward to that I spend a lot of money on and I enjoy. I don't need this weird little mini break at the start of the holiday. You're putting allergy was better, but I appreciate it.

Thank you, Harry, for racing my allergies. So I've pledged you're here. Also, just to stress that we are being 100% honest about our opinions here, which I would like to think is a given anyway. But us advocating for fewer sprint races is not within our interest as a podcast. Yes, true. Not in our interest at all. What we're advocating and we still are.

Yeah, yeah, fair. Less content. Anyway, let's move on. Lando Norris has made some comments recently, saying that F1 might never have a driver like Fernando Alonzo again in terms of his longevity in the sport. Of course, we are 23 years after Fernando Alonzo's debut in the sport at this point. And he seems to think that maybe it won't ever happen again. And if it does happen, it might be a rarity. Sam, what are your thoughts?

Alonso's ability, that man is an enigma. It's hard to just fathom how he has transcended time and space. I imagine that there'll be something that comes out that the film Interstellar is actual about Fernando alongside his life and how he's transcended through the very fabric of time. But I don't know how he's still so good. And you know, Harry, you had a banger tweet about it.

But the reactions of that man catching the half spin as he touched the gravel going around China. Yeah, but he lost time to Hamilton, didn't he? Oh, honestly, I was on to bring the swear in there. It's spectacular. He's still better. than most races. And that is mind-blowing.

Now, I think Norris' comments are fair. I think we could see someone with that longevity again. But whether it's the longevity and the quality combined, I think it's a very different scenario. Fernando O'Lonkso is arguably still in the top 1% of drivers worldwide. The guy is unfathomably good. And I think he would win a championship if you gave him the right equipment tomorrow.

I think he would happily take it by the horns and run it right to the front. Whereas there are so many other drivers, Holgerberg is a good example. Nico Hulkeberg has been around already for 14 years. He might be around for another 5 or 6. He might hit the 20 year mark. Great.

That is a long time, but he's not the same quality as Fernando Alonkso. So it shows that the body physically is able to now deal with it. And we might start seeing younger drivers get skipped out on for the more older, more experienced veteran-style driver like Fernando Alonkso is. But I'm not sure that many drivers, you know, one a generation is going to be able to deliver of just this level of superior quality. When they've been in the sport, since the boys here were about six years old. You know, that's ridiculous.

They're now 54. It's true. Yeah, that's how time works. Multiply by nine. Do everything by nine. What are your thoughts, Harry? Do you think this will be a bit of a one-off when Alonzo's career is all done and busted? Yeah, I'm not sure anyone will go quite as long, at least for a not for a long time.

I think careers in F1 now go longer than they used to. Because, you know, when Schumacher came back, had his comeback, that was a bit of an anomaly. He was an old, you know, an older driver there versus everyone else. Obviously, Alonzo is now in his 40s. Hamilton isn't going to be far off and will probably still be racing in his 40s or is at least aiming to, as mentioned, Holkenberg isn't going to be far off either.

So I think F1 careers do last longer, but to still be performing at that level for Alonzo, that's probably more what Norris is referring to here because, as we say, he's, he's not lost much of his touch in 23 years. And you said this the other day, Ben, you thought his qualifying was his weakness, but he's proved this year that not even that is his weakness, because he's been excellent in a qualifying. So, yeah, I think it's a fair comment.

I'm not sure we'll see many drivers that will carry on to that. I think we'll see that will carry on to maybe similar ages, but we'll be able to carry on to the same level. And Hamilton could probably be the exception to this, depending on how it all goes at Ferrari. But yeah, it's probably an anomaly. The one thing I was going to say, do you think that physically,

and I know these cars in qualifying are still pretty tough to drive, but actually during a race now, they're not for F1 drivers. I mean, for me, you and me, Ben and Sam, it would be pretty tough. But during a race... Don't include me in that, thank you.

I'm a machine. All right, so for me and Ben, it would be tough. Thank you. They are, they're never on the limit ever, basically, in terms of driving, driving their car, just because of the way the formula is now and they're driving to trying to save the ties. Do you think that's had an impact on? That's been the way for a few years now. I don't know.

As a theory, is that helped things along terms of the physicality of it. You've seen the video of Charlotte Kerle leaving his radio on and panting throughout the first few corners of the race track. Yeah, and I'd like to emphasize it. It's very relative to F1. as not a normal mere folk like ourselves. I just mean in comparison to what it was even 10 years ago, how hard you'd be pushing during a race versus how hard they have to drive now.

I'm not saying it's not tough. I'm just saying it's easier than it used to be. Oh, I think you're right. I thought it's very interesting, you're here. I think you're right as well. I'm convinced the reason when Alonzo does decide to leave in 20062, it will not be because of the physicality of F1. Whenever he decides to go, I'm convinced it will be something relating to family,

wanting to do something else, not having the heart for anything, whatever it might be, I'm convinced it's not going to be, I can't physically do this anymore. And I think it's a valid point. I'd say with Fernando Alonzo, it will end up being a rarity, like how long into a career he's gone. I think just because, firstly, Fernando Alonzo probably benefited from a couple of years. years away. And also, we've just spoken about it,

sprint races, if we're going to get to a point where, you know, Fernando Alonso's first few years in his career, they were on probably, what, 15-ish races per season, no spring races. It was far less of a commitment.

Anyone starting an F1 now is starting a career and doing 24 races, including, you know, a quarter of those being sprint weekends. Like, it's a, even if you can say, each individual race is maybe less of a physical toll on the body. I think the weekend as a whole and the calendar as a whole is more of a physical toll.

So anyone's starting now, I think, and maybe this is where Norris is coming from, I think there's a better or not a better chance, but an increased chance that anyone starting now could get to like 35 years old and go, yeah, that's taken enough out of me. I'm going to head off now. So it could end up being a rarity. Should we take our final break? on this episode and return to some back and forth.

Crickey, I can't wait. Back and forth at Centrebarks. I'm living the dream. Everyone, it is back and forth. F1. Back and forth, it's F1. Back and forth, it goes backwards. Then goes forth, it's F1.

Back and forth, F1. That really slaps with you on holiday. It hasn't been actually a holiday. I'm surprised it's taking you an hour to get to that point. F1 back and forth. Harry and Sam will go up against each other. There is a certain category with 18 correct answers this time around. They'll keep going back and forth until they can't think of an answer or they get, give

an incorrect answer. I'm going to give you one strike on this one. Oh, that means it's hard. Oh, no. Well, if I'd given you three strikes, that would have been, that would have indicated it's even harder. I'll give you one strike. Okay. I want you to name the top 18 point scorers in F1 history who haven't claimed a win.

For goodness sake. I don't like this game. A sprint win does not count as a win in this game and in real life. Hey. So yeah, 18 points scorers without a win. Harry, kick us off. Nico Holkenberg. Nico Holkenberg is a correct answer.

He's second on this list with 534 points with no win. Sam. Without a victory. Oh, I was about to say Sergio Perez thing. That's not true. Yeah, he's one of you. He's done all right, isn't he? Who, without,

there's so many obvious ones that are evading my brain. Nick Heidfeld Nick Heidfeld is correct The answer He's fifth on this list 259 points Harry Um

Oh no Already I don't know Nick Heifold was my option Well you stole mine So deal with it I don't know I'll go for God I almost said Ralph Schumacher

That's not good Ralph Schumacher He won a couple Yeah Ben one day I'd love to know how you find out these statistics

Can you pain secretly go driver to driver or do you just find the list It varies This one I think was relatively easy

to find Oh good for you Um Takumasato Takumasato is not on this list Damn Back to you Sam

surely Norris has got to be on there now Lando Norris is number one on this list 691 points without a victory to this point Harry pressure's on this could be a really short game here the fact that you mentioned there a sprint win does that mean they've had someone's had a sprint win

I'm not commenting on that just thought I would clarify well you're an arse then I don't know. Kevin Magnuson. Kevin Magnuson is a correct answer. He's eighth on this list with 187 points. Sam.

Surely we've got to complete the trifecter of horse drivers. Surely Grojean's on there. Grojean is on this list. He's third. 391 career points. Ari. How many did you say their word then? 18.

This is going to be a struggle. There's no. away we're getting the rating. I think I'm going to be out here. I'll go for Adrian Sutil. Adrian Soutil was a correct answer. 124 points, which is good enough for 11th on this list. Sam.

Oh, cricky. Maybe. The course is, dang it. Surely Kiviat's dang it. Kviyat is on this list. 202 points, which is good enough for seventh place. Harry. Jev?

Jeff is not correct answer. He was a near miss. He's, I think, about 23rd also. Jean-Eryk Byrne for those. Oh, yeah, good point. Clarifying that. But no, Jean-Reyr-Verns on this list. You throw out any more names?

Uh, Brad. Oh, lands. Lance. He's fourth on this list with 277. Um, I'm trying to think of modern drivers. I feel like that's where I'm, there's a lot of points, you know, these days.

Um, Albono. Albin is sixth on the list, 228. Oh, I'm, I might be struggling at this point. Oh,

um, Brundle? Brundle is on the list 98 points which puts him 13th I think I might be over and out Oh Harry did you say Kobeashi Oh no that's a good shout

Kobeashi Kobeashi he's 10th on the list With 125 Any other shouts from you Harry Are there any more in this Current crop of drivers Yeah What

Two It's Piastri on there Beastri is on there Yeah I knew Because you said the sprint win You ass clarifying it for it.

135 points without a win. Gosh, that's mad that he's already on the list. He didn't been there for a year in a bit. Well, put it this way. I put this list together about three weeks ago and he's already one position higher on this list than he was when I first did when I did this.

Poor lad. Yeah. He was behind Kamiashi when I did it. Is there another current driver on the list? Yeah, there's one more and he is 18th out of 18th. My brain, I swear, I forgets teams sometimes. 68 points. someone is screaming at their camera right now their phone

who else would be on the grid does well who's not one of it Joe Guan Yu not Joe Guan Yu it's not Joe Guan Yu Harry come on it is well hold on Harry let's go for it Hamilton Russell

thanks Leclair now those it's not for Stappan it's not Oloxos it's not Alonso we've done Shrooky Sunoda Yuki Sanoda 68 points gosh that was painful I didn't get a strike.

But equally, I don't know any other answers. There's five more on there. You've got any others? Eddie Cheever. Eddie Cheever is on there, yeah. Oh, what a guess. Honestly, are we got years?

One of them has raced in, well, technically one of them has raced in the last decade. Yarno Trilly. We won Monaco. Monaco, oh, boy. That's my strike. I think I'm done. The most recent name on this list that you didn't get was Paul Arresta,

1201 points. The other three, all a bit further back. So Stefan Johansson, raised mainly in the 1980s, Chris Eamon, who raced mostly in the 60s and 70s, and Warwick, Warwick. No. Dad, yeah.

No, actually Derek Warwick. I should have got Chris aiming, actually. Bit gramp here, didn't get that. The nearest name to being on this list that I'm a little bit surprised you didn't guess, but you'd have been wrong if you did. It's Ali Petrov. He was very close. I don't, I refuse to mention him, so that's why.

That's fair enough. Are we done? Is that it? That's it? Have we done? We've backed all of our fourths. I'm just backing my fourth. Excuse me. All right, cool. Okay, well, thanks for listening, folks. It's a joy as always.

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I've been Harry Ead. I remember, keep breaking late. Get a wrecked, son. Absolutely. Ruth still take down. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.