The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Bortoleto to Sauber in 2025 - the right call?

Episode Date: November 10, 2024

The LB trio are here this non-racing Sunday discussing the news of Gabriel Bortoleto signing with Sauber and future Audi on a multi-year contract. They also cover the GPDA's social media statement to the FIA and Domenicali's hints towards a rotational European calendar, before finishing by giving their Top 5 wet weather drives... FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. Well, welcome to the Late Breaking F1 podcast presented by Harry Ead, Sam Sage, and me, Ben Hocking. Three members are late breaking here today. Three members on audio. Three members on camera. It's going well.

Wait, oh, hang on a minute. Hello, YouTube. Harry will be some kind of embarrassing photo right now because he's forgotten his camera. That is up to cursing, you take aside. Once again, I don't just like forget a whole thing.

I remember most of the ingredients that I need and then forget one thing. I'm not on my usual spot of recording, folks, and I brought everything I need for my camera apart from the memory card. It's actually quite crucial because you can't do much otherwise. I love the idea that every time you go away,

you remember the last thing you forgot and make extra effort to bring it. Last time it was the tripod, right, when we went to Texas. And I imagine you were like, there it is, tripod sorted. Now, you can't see that, folks, by the way, because again, there's no camera for him. But now it's the memory car. So next time you goes away, it will be, the memory car will be like in his mouth. He'll can, I'm not going to go.

But he won't have headphones. He won't have the headphones on the camera next time. It's great. It's a great game. The thing is, I remember headphones will be the wire I need to plug the headphones in. That's how I go. It's always a little bit, a little bit of the last bit of the end that I forget. Speaking of what's a lot.

next. Ben, I brought this up to you before we all got ready to record. I just want to talk about Valkyri Botas, we'll get on to this. The man is doing an eyeing man in his hotel room just because he can't be bothered to do anything else. Everything is what's next. He's done a whole eyeing man in his pants in a hotel room. Yeah, I mean, he's treating a, not having a seat, which we're going to get into very well. It's probably like the expected response from Valtry Bottas at this stage. I love it. You're right. Valtry Bottas is coming up very shortly on this episode. We've also got some chat about rotational races. We've got the Grand Prix Drivers Association statement a little bit later on as well. But we are going to start with the news that broke on

Wednesday. We recorded on Tuesday. So we missed it. Apologies, but we are here now talking about what is happening with that Salba Seat, which is that Gabriel Bortoletto will be taking it away from Jo Guanyu and Valti Botteis next season. Before we get onto the serious part of this conversation, I do want to address one thing, which is the timeline of events, because goodness me, 8am on Wednesday morning, Stakes Salber on Twitter announced that they wouldn't be going any further with Bottas and Joe. They said after open and constructive discussions with Bottas and Joe, we mutually concluded that conditions to continue together could not be met, so we agreed that it is time to part ways. 15 minutes later, they left it for 15 minutes for them to post a teaser as to who it might be replacing these two drivers.

And then 32 minutes after that, they didn't have one hour between announcing this and then announcing that it would be Gabriel Bortoletto making the move to the team. He's a 20-year-old Brazilian driver in F2. If you're unaware, they've signed him on a multi-year deal. Matea Bonotto said it had been a straightforward decision with no doubts at all. Seeing young drivers doing well gave me more confidence that Gabriel can do well from the start. And he said that he had already demonstrated in the junior categories that he has what it takes to be a winning driver. Now, Bortoletto had been a part of the McLaren Junior program, but they announced in a statement that he had been released from this in order to make that happen. And Bortoletto being on the grid means that Brazil has its first full-time presence since 2017 when Felipe Masa left the sport. So, Sam, I guess the prominent question here is, was it the right decision?

I just want to talk about that timeline quickly because it's absolutely hilarious that the company that is there to drive excitement for their streaming and entertainment business felt it feels like they were unable to, one, coordinate a series of very basic announcements and to build any kind of hype around what should be a really big and exciting moment for them next year. It was really well worked out. So good job to you steak. Underdone, I would say, underdone. Some people like it that way, I suppose.

Sorry, I don't have the drum roll ready on the soundboard, but well done. Oh, thank you. Can we get a real drummer in just for every episode we do in the background of it? Let me check the budget, no. That's how it's as quick as Sal, we're making that decision to against Bortoletto. Right, Portoletto, let's not kind of forget about this brilliant young man. And brilliant he is. 20 years old at the moment, I've actually made some notes, Ben will be very proud of me.

He's 20 years old. And he is the 2023 F3 champion. And he's had a very similar rise up the ranks of the likes of your Piascries, your La Clare's, your Norrises. So the kid is in high esteem. He's currently the 2024 F2 Championship League as well. So what has been a very chaotic junior year for F2 with lots of different winners,

cars are performing as expected. You know, you haven't seen your Pramers rising to the very top like they normally would. There's been a lot of battling about who can kind of lead back championship. So the fact that he has found himself at the pinnacle of F2 this year with a very impressive grouping of drivers in that junior category is a real success story for him. The fact that he was also very much championed by McLaren, I think shows you that, you know what,

the kid's got some real talent. And I actually think that the purchase of Piastri off of Alpine has probably stopped him getting into that McLaren seat at some point because Piastri is going to be around for at least another three or four years in that team unless he gets absolutely rinked by a multi-billion-dollar organization to buy his contract out. I imagine that Piastri is going to be a key part of McClaran's plans for a long time. So Portoletto looked like he was up and coming for that drive.

Like he was probably going to end up either replacing Norris, if Norris ever decides to leave and go on to do other things, or to accompany Norris, should Piastri have never have arrived in that group. And maybe McClan was still bouncing around. Second rate is harsh, but, you know, not top tier secondary drivers. But the fact that, you know, they've agreed to let him go, tells you that one, they're happy with Piascri and two, Audi must look at this because it is a multi-year deal and go, hello, this is a young driver with a lot of both marketing and actual talent behind him.

We can really invest our time and worth into this driver and he could become something quite brilliant. And I think he's shown that in his junior career that he has dominated at most classes as being from karting all the way through to F3 and now throughout the season and F2. He's been very successful. It's only been in the game kind of notably for the last five or six years, but he's really a major game for himself. So I know it's harsh on the likes of Porsche and on Bottas, who I think has been fantastic. But I do think this is a great pickup for Aldi and Salba for the next year, of course. So overall, thumbs up, right call? Right call I don't know.

But a very good call, yes indeed. Harry, what do you think? Was it the right decision? Yeah, I'm with Sam on this one. On paper, I think it seems like a good call. Salba, well done, because we said you don't have to have too long. of experienced drivers. Two box.

Boom. Tick. Take on both. Yeah. So well done to Salba slash steak bake on that one. State bake. God, it's so funny.

Yeah. It feels like we've not said that for a while. Well, there's been no reason to talk about them. So it's just... The toaster is taking over, really. Yeah, true. So yeah, I think that that's a sensible call, a good call. As he said, Sam, he's leading the F2 championship.

And why would you not... I would not look at that as a potential option to be in the car next year. We've said before if you win the F2 Championship, you should be, you should probably get a seat the next. That's a, I like, yes, I think you're right. That's a good idea. Yeah, yeah. I'm not thinking that.

Yep. They may have overlooked so. Who on last year? Oh, no. Oh, the floodgates. Go on. But yeah, look, I think it's a good call. The, I don't know.

no, there are other there are other drivers out there. I'll let Ben do his piece in a minute, but there are other drivers out there. I might have gone for before Bortoletto. There are other drivers on the grid, potentially. Look, Colopinto's proven, he's proved himself already, I think, and I might have been looking in that direction

if I was Mediabon Otto, but clearly he can't see him. You can only say young Brazilian men. Wow. Jeez. Sure. That's Sam Sage. Yeah, Sam Sage said that not me on bed. The other thing that I'm a bit unsure about is this multi, multi-year deal.

Why? Well, that was going to be my second question in all this, because we know that like Jack Dewin is an example at Alpine. It's a one-year deal for a rookie, but this is multi-year. Why are you not one-yearing this? Because he's a rookie. And look, Port-Letter might be excellent, but. And I'm sure there are, I'm sure there are clauses in it.

And, you know, it doesn't matter if a driver has a contract in F1 these days. If they aren't good, they could, they could be booted out. I know, cost of team money, they don't want to do it. But if they're not performing, then they will be, they will be let go. Daniel Riccardo, for example, Logan Sargent. But why, why bother? Because I'm sure Bortoletta would have signed a one-year deal. I don't think he would have been that picky about his contract.

and why lock yourself in because you know you've got 2025 for salber before it comes Audi properly it's like a really nice test year they can just go testing for a year test out of their driver line up make sure they're getting ready for 2026 and why are you locking a

locking your drive? Hulkaberg I understand obviously I get it why are locking a driver who has not raced a wheel in F1 yet to a multi-deal I don't quite understand that one but overall sensible enough decision from Salba. I mean, my short answer to was it the right decision is obviously no, because I think it should have been Porsche and I'm not actually going to go on a rampage with this one today because I think I've said all that I need to say on previous episodes

about why I think Porsche would have been the right call. Bortoletto, as you say, is on course to win the F2 championship. he would be following in the footsteps of Teu Poitier who won it last year. So I do think Porcée should have got the nod. But if I put him aside

and I look at all the other options, yes, I think it makes the most sense of those other options. Jo Guanyu, let's face it, not good enough at this point, three years into his career. I think when we look back, we might say he was fortunate

to get three years in that seat rather than two or maybe even one. Valtry Bottas, had a very strong season. You know, we have consistently where others have not given him praise, particularly in the likes of our power rankings episodes, we do take car performance into account. He has done a really good job with nothing or essentially nothing at his disposal. But equally, when you've got Holcomberg in that second seat, you're already ticking the experience box, you're ticking the, and you want to get your future in there as well, whoever that might be.

Bottas isn't going to be that driver. Colopinto with the Williams tie-in, I just don't think that was ever really going to happen. And even some other, obviously I vouched for Porsche, but there are some other junior drivers within that program, the likes of Zay Maloney, but I don't think he was ever really in the conversation either with him going off to Formula E instead. So I think long-term, Bortoletto makes the most sense. I do have two concerns. Number one is kind of what you referenced Sam, which is the unreliability of resolve.

in F2 this year. And I just don't know how much, I don't want to take anything away from him, but equally, it doesn't seem very spec series-e this year based on the performances of the likes of the Pramer drivers. Oliver Berman was far better in F2 last year, hasn't done anywhere near as well this year. Yet in his F1 performances, he's done well for the most part. And equally, Kimmy Antonelli, he might be doing a slightly better job. I think he's about sixth in the championship at the moment, but given how well he's done in previous series, maybe we'd have expected him to be doing a bit better. So I am a bit worried about can we trust the results in F2 this year?

And I guess on top of that, as already referenced, he's moving from McLaren's junior program. That means Salba don't have a lot of information outside of these results that they can rely on. When you're looking to promote a junior driver from within someone you've already got on board, you can look at SIM data, you can look at test data, they don't have that with Bortoletto, which means it's a bit riskier. The other thing I wanted to bring up, which is a slight concern, is his junior career is odd.

It's really weird. So absolutely, the last two years have been brilliant. He has the chance to do what not many drivers have done, which is win F3 and F2 and back-to-back years. And generally speaking, anyone who's done that in the past has gone on to do very well. So I think he'll do well in Formula 1 as well. But the first few years of his junior career did not point to him being this level of prospect. Like, he was fifth in Italian F4, which isn't bad, but equally he was in Pramer that year, which means Pramma have a very strong advantage in that series.

He was beaten by two rookie teammates that year. 2021 and 2022 he moves on to Frecker, and he is beaten by, again, rookie teammates. He's beaten by the likes of Gabrielle Minnie. he's beaten by Dino Baganovich, he's beaten by Adria and David, like a lot of drivers who aren't even in F2 yet full time, who beat him early in his career. And maybe it is just as soon as he got to F3, something clicked and it all came together.

But generally speaking with these like high-end prospects, you can tell almost straight away that they're going to be that way. That wasn't the case with Bortoletto. So I'm intrigued more than anything. But overall, I think there's. was the right decision. Sam, your thoughts as to this being a multi-year deal? Fucking off, I was just about to ask you exactly the same question.

Thoughts on a multi-year deal. Yeah, I'm not as skeptical as Harry and perhaps yourself, Ben, where it comes to the multi-year deal, mainly because behind the scenes, I think these multi-year deals are far more comprehensive than they used to be, kind of when we first started watching Formula One. I think there are now a lot more clauses in place, as Harry mentioned, that will exist.

There'll be a, you know, you need to be, you know how the car is as well. You need to be X amount of distance around Holkenberg. You'll need to be providing X amount of SIM data. There will be X amount of results you're expected to achieve. It won't be as simple as we've got a rubbish car. We have to finish 19th and 20th every single race. So whatever.

There will be benchmarks that he'll have to hit. And I imagine that even if they get to the end of that year and they turn up and go, uh, not for us. They can get rid of them. them, even if it is a three, four, five year deal, it won't be. But even if it would be, they can chuck him out if they want to. What I like about a multi-year deal, especially for a rookie, is the security, it's the ability to fail and pick yourself back up and learn and develop

from it. And maybe they've noticed that, for example, someone like Valtry Bottas, who he has replaced, maybe that level of insecurity, maybe that level of pressure is not healthy. It's not positive. It's not constructive for a lot of these rookie drivers. So therefore, saying to him, you've got the whole year. You make mistakes. You develop, you grow, you ask questions. We're here to help you become a better driver. And I imagine Audi are also saying,

we want him in our car. We see a future for him in our car. So it's like at least a year with him in our car as well. It allows him to have a freebie in 25. 26, they'll get serious as they fall under the name of Audi, obviously. And they want to start competing for, I mean, not podium, just yeah, I imagine. But at least points on the regular.

I think this is a positive step. I'm surprised they didn't market it as a one plus one kind of contract rather than just simply using the words multi-year. But again, maybe that's to ensure that Portoletto has some confidence and some time. And he feels like he could get in here and make some mistakes because I think that's positive. Rookies are doing very, very well. And I think we're able to remove the excuse of they're a rookie to say they can't do well anymore. So let's see how he hits the ground in 2025. But I've got confidence that this isn't the most drastically bad.

decision. Yeah, I'm probably somewhere in the middle of you both, to be honest. I think you are right in that it depends on how this multi-year deal is framed. Like, what are the get-out clauses? Is it a true two-year deal? If it is a one-plus-one, I'm far more in favor of that, because as we've seen from some other rookies in the past, Logan Sargent immediately springs to mind. I think they should have got rid of Logan Sargent after one year. And I think you want that get-out clause, even if Williams, in that instance didn't use it. There is a bit of a split when it comes to these rookie drivers on the grid next year because whilst I referenced Shaq Duan has a one-year deal, Oliver Behrman has a multi-year deal.

But I feel like with Hass and Behrman, I'm not here saying Behrman's going to be better than Bortoletto, but I am saying that Beirman has been with the Hasse organisation far longer. He's had a lot of FP1 sessions. He's obviously had two races for them this year as well. I think Hasse were maybe in a slightly better position to give Berman a multi-year deal. And on that, there is also the ladder that Ferrari are expecting Berman to go on, right? They expect Lewis Hamilton to be in that seat for two, maybe three years, and they need Berman to be him out because they're assuming that if he's good enough,

he will then replace Lewis Hamilton at Ferrari when that deal comes to an end. I'm assuming in their mind, that's the trajectory for that driver. Yeah, quite possibly. I think there's just a bit more reason to have confidence in, in Beerman right now, like, has specific than compared to, say, stake slash Salba, who are bringing in someone that they've had no interaction with to this point. So, yeah, I probably would have framed it more as a one-year try-out deal and then a second year if certain conditions are met. But yeah, there's too much riding on

Audi in 26 and 27 for them to waste time with a driver if he's not good enough. So, And I don't think this will be the case. If Bortoletto does really underperform, they need to have those get-out clauses so that they can go with someone else that could be their future instead. Would you give Bortoletto the rest of the free practice sessions for the rest of the year?

You know, the classic first one, I think, should have the next three races. If they can, I doubt, it's probably contractually the issue with Joe and Bottas because I think we might have had this discussion with Alpine and Jack Duh earlier this year about why wouldn't you give Jack doing free practice sessions for the rest of this year, I think it's more likely to come down to the contracts that the current drivers

have in place for this season specifically. If they can't work around that, then sure, it makes sense because they're not going anywhere, are they? But it depends whether they can legally do it, I think. Okay, we're going to take our first break on this episode. On the other side, we've got a statement from the GPDA. I love this, by the way. I can't wait to get into this. Welcome back, everyone. F1 drivers have criticized FIA President Mohamed Ben Suleim over his calls for them to watch their language and demanded transparency over what the sports governing body does

with the money it makes from fines. The Grand Prix Drivers Association issued a statement on Thursday and amongst other things referred to the FIA's clampdown on drivers wearing jewelry during races and compliance with regulations regarding fireproof underwear. I won't read the full statement. You can check that out on Instagram. Why not, mate.

It's good. Read it out. It's a long old statement, but I've picked out a few particular quotes from it. With regards to swearing, there is a difference between swearing intended to insult others and more casual swearing, such as you might use to describe bad weather, or indeed an inanimate object such as a Formula One car or a driving situation. You're absolutely right. We urge the FIA president to also consider his own tone and language when talking to our member

drivers or indeed about them, whether in a public forum or otherwise. Further, our members are adults. They do not need to be given instruction via the media about matters as trivial as the wearing of jewelry and underpants. The GPDA has on countless occasions expressed its view that the driver monetary fines are not appropriate for our sport. For the past three years, we have called upon the FIA president to share the details and strategy regarding how the FIA's financial fines are allocated and where the funds are spent. Sam, initial first thoughts on this statement. I've just got visions of George Russell

just dropping the pen after he's written that and kind of standing there with his boss action. And then Lewis Hamilton, of course, scrolls into the paddock with 837 rings on, 400 braces, 37 X's and eight watches up his arm. I absolutely love it. The commitment to the bit from the Mesaig's team is 10-10. Good job, the Sagan.

That is so good. Yeah, it's so George Russell coded. You can read it through. You can almost imagine him just saying it in a press conference. It is the bad weather coming. absolutely sent me when he talked about swearing. Of course, that's the first thing

out of George Russell's mouth when he thinks, what would I swear about casually? God, this bloody weather, bloody awful. They said it down in bloody. It's so funny. But on a more serious note,

I actually think the statement, and I love that they set up on Instagram to do this, by the way. Couldn't get a graphic designer to sort out the logo, though, apparently that's been done by five-year-old Sam on Canber. Honestly, what a bloody statement.

And I absolutely love that they've gone enough of this. This is silly. This is absolutely silly. And I wholeheartedly agree with a lot of the points that are being made. And I would go wider with it. The comments on the swearing are absolutely ridiculous. So much so that I think I brought this up in our group chat.

When the Brazil issues have been worked out after the Grand Prix, you had the Norris and Co jumpstart and things like that, they got fined less for breaking a safety regulation on a racetrack. Charles LeCler was fined for accidentally lessing a swearwork slip in a press. conference that is broadcasting a delay and therefore you could bleep if you wanted to. You have full control over that as a broadcaster. You can do that. But a safety breach where you know the rules where you could put other drivers,

skewers, team members, spectators at risk is half the risk, half the cost, apparently, ridiculous. Swearing is a factor of life. It is a high octane sport. They're very passionate. We as an audience are very passionate. Swearing is normal. And we've seen it multiple times that you have the ability from the broadcast of things to bleep it.

You can mitigate it. The jewelry thing, never been a problem essentially before Lewis Hamilton turned up, never really been massively mentioned. I've only really been mentioned in the last three years. And to my knowledge, has never ever been a problem in Formula One in terms of safety. So it's just again, clamping down on a certain style of driver. And then the end point that they make about where the fees are spent, where does that fine money go, which I think is a perfectly reasonable question to ask,

I don't mind having to have some kind of retribution where I've broken the rules and I need to make it up. But surely that money they should go, it's a charity, it should go directly to, I don't know, grassroots Formula One, you know, building up carting or youngsters or sponsoring scholarships or something like that, that I'm all for as well. But the fact that there is no knowledge about where it's all, and it's a lot of money where that goes is absolutely ridiculous. So when you've got Ben Sulean parading around statements about Donald Trump becoming the president and making large political statements as the head of a global organization, which let's remember, Sebastian and Bechle and Lewis Hamilton in recent history were disciplined

for making political statements for on things they believed in. It's quite hypocritical. It's quite outlandish that again, certain rules are being set for one group, not being followed by another group. And I think they are perfectly right to call this out. And I'm actually really proud of George Russell for making a statement and getting everyone together. And he's clearly collected their thoughts and gone, I will rewrite this. As the gentleman of the sport, I will put my pen to the paper and I will create a statement. I will be the worksmith, then is George Russell.

And it was like a team radio message on paper politically, which I loved. So good job, George. Love the statement. and love what they're standing for. I think it's right. I think it actually is good. I've now just got visions of George Russell like a few hundred years,

like Samuel Peep's style, like right in this thing. It's got a, was it a quill? Yes, in front of the fireplace. I tell you what, not on my bingo card that Samuel Peeps would get a shout out today. Big up Samuel Peeps.

Big up Sammy Peeps. I'm not going to make sure games, but there's a certain individual in my life who can't say Samuel Pepys and believes it is pronounced Samuel Pepys. Well, that a certain individual. needs to read a buck I thought about that conversation

Sam is that so individual you it's actually my first name I have problems with Harry what are your thoughts on George Peeps' statement George Pepys Oh that's so good Yeah

Big up go get him George I respect this a lot I got to say I think I like the idea that Sebastian Vettel turned up for a weekend and was like, you know what, I'm not, I've sat here for a year watching this, I'm not having it anymore.

George, get your pen and paper out. A little journal. Yeah, we write in a message, boy. I do think Vettles probably had some involvement here. But, I mean, Vettel was the chairman of the GPDA before he retired and he handed that mantle over to Russell and he did a good job in handing that mantle over to George Russell, because I think he does an excellent job and, you know, has the interest of all the drivers at the forefront.

So, yeah, the way this message was written or statement was written is excellent. They signed off with best regards. Like, that in itself is excellent. Anyway, but yeah, I totally agree with you, Sam. I think all of the points that were made in there were very, very fair. the funds the start of it is addressing obviously what the recent controversy

around the swearing which is all in the news but I enjoy that he then he went in hard with the fun And here's another thing Another thing Yeah exactly I was halfway writing it and going

Actually this is also piqued me off Yeah he'd actually put best regards Way earlier on and it's like no hang on You like you like But it's fair And I think it's a very fair statement and I'm glad the drivers have spoken out about this. Love the idea they've also just made an Instagram for it.

So like necessary, but it's great. So good. But yeah, all the points are totally fair. It's things we've said previously. The funds thing is probably not something I've considered or thought about it for a while. But yeah, what are they doing with that? What is the image we're showing here? and yeah

there should be something constructive done with that money if you are going to do it a fine system there should be something constructed done with that money and not into the bank of the FIA

because they don't need it so yeah go go get them George I was I mean it made me laugh a lot of the statement but the points in it were all extremely valid so proud of Samuel Peppers

well time George Peppers nice one, Sammy. This has gone ridiculous now. Punchy. That was my one word summary. It is punchy. And it's significant as well. My biggest surprise in all of this

is not that they put together a statement questioning some of these decisions from the FIA. It's the fact that they've gone for the jugular. They've gone for Ben Suleum himself. Respect it. I don't think they actually called him out by name in this, but they do say,

the FIA president a couple of times, which... Even better. Mr. President. Fair. They could have just done this a bit more generically, right? They could have just said it more about the FIA as a body. And the fact that they haven't, I think very much indicates that they are saying, you know, we'll fight fire with fire.

You've come for us. We'll respond in kind. We aren't messing about at all. And F1 drivers, it's a bit of a rarity. that they come together on anything. And I actually often think that they lose out because their collective bargaining power is quite high and they don't use it very often.

Is it bigger than anything else bigger than the 20 of them together? I don't know. Yeah, exactly. But the flip side of that is because they don't do it very often, whenever they do for something like this, it carries a lot of weight. And it is significant as a result of that.

And it shows that they mean business. So I thought it was a punchy and a significant statement. Sam, how much pressure is there now on Ben Suleim to respond? Well, what can they do? What is the response here? It's either outright, no, we're going to ignore all 20 drivers. And then what do they do? The drivers have it in their full disposal, their arsenal to start going,

you know what? We're all going to start swearing every statement we make. And they could. It's free will. In theory, nothing can stop them. And then what happens? Do they start censoring their own social media? Do they start, it becomes literally a war of words that I don't think the FIA can control.

And I think the FIA have tunneled down a certain pathway and they've ended up not allowing themselves to go back. I don't think, I think they are, you know, when you say something really awkward in a social situation and you're like, oh, I'll put my foot on it there. And then you keep digging. I think this is what the FIA have done. I think they kept digging that hole and the ladder ain't long enough to pull them out of. of it and they either need to immediately go, we'd probably overstep the mark here, actually. These are human beings and this is a sporting environment. We'll do what we can to bleep certain words at the right moments, but you might hear some

bad language occasionally. Or I think this becomes a real war between the 20 most powerful individuals in our sport, which are the drivers, and the president of the governing body that overrides the entire sporting code. It is not a good place to being. Ben Sillium, I think, is massively under the pressure right now. And I imagine there's a lot of people internally within the FIA who are probably thinking, mate, since you've come along, it's been nothing but issue after issue after issue. And it has been.

He's put his foot in it so many times. I do wonder what the atmosphere internally is like at the moment with his support from the people at the top. So it's a tricky one. And for me, I think he needs to put his hands up and maybe start working on other matters that might be just a little bit more important in life. But that's just me. swearing ain't the biggest thing in the game, mate. Move on from it.

Harry, if we're looking at the, if we're summarizing the potential options here for Ben Suleim, you could say he could completely ignore this and hope it goes away. He could go on the attack or he could go on the defence and maybe give into some of these things that they're saying. Which way do you think he goes? Ah, I was going to say, which do you think he should go? Which way do I think he will go?

Both questions are valid. Valid, valid. he should I'm not saying he should just fold but all the concerns here are valid we've already said

the swearing things ridiculous so just give up on that one like you're just never going to be you're never going to be able to police it and if you are going to start

policing it like this what's to stop all 20 drivers just on purpose swearing every weekend I mean they probably do but in any press conference interview they just swear

because they're making a point, it would get farcical and they'd have to give in. So you'd just give in now because I wouldn't put it past them doing it. We're talking a long time ago now, but drivers have been down to strike and not race. That was over safety concerns in the 70s, but these sorts of things happens.

When you get mob mentality amongst a group of F1 drivers, I think they'll stick up for themselves. So on that front he should give in. And I think he does need to address this, the funds thing, because I think there's actually a very harsh reality

that they've highlighted here that probably not everyone watching knows about. What he will do is probably ignore this and say something stupid. Because past form. I mean, what on earth would make you think that? Because we don't give the FIA enough credit. Oh, we can't go through that again.

Oh, God. but I sense he will get I sense he'll get his backup on this and come out with a statement that will not help things I hope he doesn't I hope he goes the other way I hope he addresses and you know backs backs down on some of these issues but

I just I get the sense that maybe he likes to have a jab a lot of Ben Silliam likes to have a jab at things, as we've seen during his 10 years so far, whether it's F1, the Andretti, the Andretti situation, he's always been sort of on the opposite. If you do something, I'll do the opposite.

It's basically been his mentality. Yeah, but I call him the devil's advocate around the office. Yeah, how he comes to the DA. The old DA's back. I love world peace, war for everyone. Yeah, I hate everyone. So I just fear that's the way it's going to go. but I hope I'm wrong.

Yeah, I hope you're wrong as well, but I don't think you are, which is an odd thing for me to say based on your track record. Wow. Yeah, I think you're probably right. He's under a lot of pressure, I think, based on this statement, Ben Sillium.

Because the statement itself, whilst I described it as punchy and significant, it doesn't like, it leaves room for them to say other things. Like they haven't addressed everything. If they wanted to go back and talk about the limits on political messages that you said earlier, Sam, or if they want to talk about whatever the hell that Toto Wolf, Susie Wolf thing

was at the beginning of this year. Like, there are, there's not a limit of the amount of scandals and stupid things the FIA has done that the drivers could attack if they want to. So yes, it's significant, but there's more to come if they want it. Mohammed Ben-Suliam has obviously kind of started this, and now he has to deal with the consequences of it. The swearing quote-unquote issue that, let's face it, isn't really much of an issue.

He's just gone about that completely the wrong way. Like, I don't hold it against him that he thinks it's a little bit of an issue. But the problem is he's dealt with it as if it's like the biggest threat to humanity. Like, he should have dealt with it at the appropriate level of what it was, talking to the drivers, putting his point across and saying, look, I think as role models, we need to collectively do a better job to swear less. But that was all that was needed. Instead, he's gone straight to fines and no mercy whatsoever. And I just don't think it makes a lot of sense. In terms of those fines and the transparency of them,

generally speaking, when you've got a big organisation like this, if they're not transparent about where the fines are going, it means they don't want you to know where the fines are going. straight into someone's pocket, I imagine. If this was going to charity or going to a good cause, I think the FIA might shout about it all the time because that's good publicity. The fact that they don't do that indicates they probably don't do that.

So they'll put together some sort of cobbled statement that tries to defend themselves. I'm not sure how well it will go down. I did just want to refer to, there was a Fred on Twitter by Eliza 81 that looked pretty, well research. I can't vouch for Eliza 80 well, but it looks very well researched. Aliza. Right. And...

Do you want to know what the friend's about, or should I just leave it there? No, I'm Eliza. I'm saying with that. Essentially, she's detailed, like, where all of the fines have come from for the entirety of this year. And based on her calculations, 300,000 euros worth of fines since the start of the year. I would give it a read, because not only is it quite startling the amount that the FIA have raised through fines. The inconsistency is ridiculous. Like for the same thing, teams and drivers are getting fined different amounts, depending on what weekend it is. But yeah, you've got 300,000 there, which is even for the FIA, not an insignificant amount. If someone offered me 300,000 euros, you know, I'd probably take it. Maybe that's where

the money's going straight into my point. Well, how long. It was breaking news. Ben Sillian buys 300,000 pound new bentley. Us Ben's have to stick together, you know. But yeah, if they wanted us to know where it was going, we'd know about it. We don't, therefore, it's probably not ideal, as Sam might say. Can't wait for

the statement to be that Ben Silliams is comparing himself to, like, the warden at a prison and he's trying to get this bad behaviour out of these offenders or something like that, like he thinks he's some kind of superhero to the people. I see myself as a father figure to the young drivers. Yeah, like a pastor at a church or something like that. We will coax the devil

out of them. Well, that's probably not the last time we'll speak about this. We'll see what Ben Silliam's reaction is or what his reaction isn't in the future. We'll take our second break at this point. On the other side, we've got some comments on the F1 calendar by Stefano Domenicali. I can't believe it's happening. Yeah, I can't believe it's happening. Don't buy it. Welcome back, everyone. On a Liberty Media Investors call, F1 CEO, Stefano de Manichali, had the following to say regarding the future of the F1 calendar. We have some news to share very, very soon,

with regard to the possibility in the midterm to have some rotational European Grand Prix and some other new options coming later. It is true that we have a large demand of new possible venues that want to come in. Now, obviously, we're at 24 races, Sam. there seems to be a bit of hesitancy to go too much further than this. Rotational races in Europe, do you think this would be a good idea?

Now, if I didn't want to put Kersky through absolute misery, I would say cut here and make a massive compilation of the three of us talking about why a rotational calendar is a good idea and that we've been bringing it up since what feels like episode one of this podcast, 400 and what, 74 episodes in at this point? I reckon we brought it up at least 15 to 20 times. At least we've gone about it endlessly. Yes, it makes total sense.

Yes, stop adding Grand Prix's onto everyone's year. We haven't got enough days in the bloody year to keep racing that many times. As much as I'd love to live through a Grand Prix a day and not have any kind of a life and never want to touch grass ever again. It's not functional. People have got families. People have got lives, all right? It's just not healthy.

It's not safe. I should see sunlight occasionally. I need more melling in my skin, all right? So it can't happen. 24 probably is the cap realistically. Gog for big, someone came with an idea to get more racetracks on a regular calendar that is rotational. Who came up with that idea? Honestly, I can't believe it's only just got to this point where all these incredibly intelligent, well-paid people have only just theorised that this might be a reasonable and practical solution to what has been a large problem for at least the last four or five years, but

longer than that realistically, we can have Grand Prix appear once every three years. They'll have a great time. New fans will get to come. Venues will get to make sure that they can recruit the funds together that they need to make sure they're paying for the fees that they need to get onto the calendar. Honestly, it will bring tourism to so many areas. There's almost not a negative apart from

you might lose your favourite Grand Prix for a season or two. That's probably the biggest negative here. But even the big boys of Formula One, your Silver Stones, your monsors. They're going to stay. They're not going to be the rotational ones. It'll be so we get things like the Nürberg ring, Hockenheim, Turkey. Those are the kind of Grand Prix. You're going to see more and more if this happens. Of course, it's a good idea. I just cannot believe it's taken to the end of 2024 for this to be an actual realistic discussion that might appear in Formula One and then be put

into action. I'm hoping for the 2026 calendar because obviously 2025 is locked in at this point, contracts assigned. But surely in the next couple of years, we're going to start seeing some regular rotation. I was trying to remember the last time we had a rotational Grand Prix in place. And the one that immediately sprung to mind was the German Grand Prix that rotated between Hockenheim and Nureberg ring. But I think that was more financially related than it was interest related. Harry, do you think this is a good idea?

Yes. Just to be clear. Just to be clear. it is a good idea I won't be mad about the fact that's taking them quite so long to suggest this I'm just glad we finally got here

my worry is they're gonna mess this off why would you think that I've got I just got a bad feeling we're gonna end up with like worse calendars in terms of the races we get

we're going to have with more street circuits and maybe it'll be like we'll have one crappier, one good year. I don't know. I'm just a bit worried that they're doing this because, obviously, they want to fill the calendar with more races and that we're at the limit now, so we can't do that, do that as it is. But I just got a feeling that they're suggesting this because they want to add some rubbish circuits to the calendar

and it won't replace, but some years they'll replace some great circuits. But when we rotate, we'll just end up with like a bit of crap, then a couple of good ones said a bit of crap again. And I'm just worried that's the way it's going to go. So I hope I'm wrong again, like the Benzillian point, I hope and prove wrong again. But yeah, that's my only worry.

But in theory, on paper, this is a good idea. If we are going to have to add more circuits to the calendar and not lose any, then yes, this is the way to go. I'm just worried. What do you think they'll put in? Are you going in your mind that you think guards? Well, I don't know, but for example, the Madrid race versus Barcelona.

Maybe that's the way to keep Barcelona, which is great, but then we might have, like, the Spanish Grand Prix is crap every two years. I totally get your point. Which one's the crap one? Not revealing that, but... That's the confusing part, right? I think maybe up to 2020, a lot of it.

sort of roll her eyes and going, oh, it's Catalonia. You know, it's not exactly been a great Grand Prix for the last 15 years. So it could happen flow, you don't know what's going to be good or bad, but I agree there's a lot of fantastic circuits in the world. Many of them aren't street circuits. So I just fear this will open the door to things. This isn't going to happen, but

you lose Silverstone every other year. London Grand Prix. For a London Grand Prix. I'm not saying that's happening. It probably where they've talked about this for years, but you end up losing great. tracks every other year for a terrible track, a terrible street circuit. Sure.

It feels to me like the journey from about 18 races a season to 24 races a season has been met with, at least internally, zero opposition. Like as soon as a track wanted to appear on the calendar, like Qatar and Saudi Arabia, Las Vegas, Miami, all of these tracks, like within the FIA, within Formula One, hasn't really been met with opposition. I do genuinely think now we are at a point where the FIA and F1 are maybe aligned on this, which is shocking to say that we're probably at the limit. We can't go more than this without adding in some rotation.

So in that sense, yes, I think this is a good idea. You look at like races that have, or countries or races that have expressed interest recently and other tracks that have been on the calendar recently. and you can understand why rotational races would make a lot of sense. Like if none of the current 24 want to leave, like they all want to stay there, you've already referenced Barcelona, at least for one year, Barcelona and Madrid, I think, are going to be both on the calendar. And I don't think Barcelona wants to leave after that point either.

So that's a possibility. You've got multiple races that have been touted in Africa. We've got Rwanda, which we spoke about maybe a couple of months ago. We have South Africa, which sort of comes and goes in terms of that being a possibility. The Tanzania rumor, which Fizakela's backing, which is, needs to happen because of that and that only. The way they get these drivers to be these spokespeople, it's just bizarre. I've seen things about a second race in Saudi Arabia, a second race in China, Thailand we spoke about, not that long ago. You've got all of these tracks that have appeared on the calendar quite recently, like Magello and Portugal.

We've had Istanbul that you've referenced as well, Nürbergring. And then most recently, the soaring popularity of one Franco Colopinto suddenly puts Argentina as a possibility there as well. So you've got all of these tracks that I think will have an interest at least somewhat. And there's just not enough space to fill them. So to me, having some sort of rotation makes sense. Sam, which circuits do you think are most at risk? weirdly I think spa is actually at significant risk and that's not through the love of the Formula One community.

It's through finance reasons. That track regularly struggles to raising our funds to get to the point where they can have a longer contract and then we have a conversation that they might drop off and they have a one year extension. That conversation is always in turn. And actually most recently you brought up the South African Grand Prix. They were considering a possible rotation with the South African Grand Prix, which is a bizarre series of events. but if you can't afford it, you can't afford it.

I do think it will be some of the more classic Grand Prix. I hate to say it. I think something like Zandvort and Austria might end up being a big of a risk here because of how many centralised European Grand Prix we have. And I think Hungary might end up being a bit of a risk, which is a shame because I think Hungary in recent years has become a real banger of a Grand Prix location alongside the likes of Austria. So there's every chance that that selection of Central Europeans

Grand Prix can really be booting out for two, if not three years at a time. And you might see them three times a decade at that point. And if something like Austria is a victim of this, it would be a real shame. I think there needs to almost be a certain status on the calendar that either, I don't know, you have to earn through public votes or something like that. It will never happen because that's got how Formula Long A FIA work. But a public vote that ensures that, I don't know, up to 10 are protected and you get to see them every single season.

So you're Silverstones, your Monsors, your Brazil Grand Prix currently. These are the ones that are really top-knocked people absolutely love. But they are at risk. I do think they're at risk if they can't maintain the finances to ensure they stay on the grid for two, three years running. I think the potential issue for Domenicali here is that he's locked up a lot of these European circuits for quite a long time. So I don't think he's going to have the flexibility on some of them.

So a couple that you mentioned there, Silverstone, Hungara Ring and the Red Bull ring, they all have deals going into the 2030s. So, yeah, in theory, I guess those, those three at least are probably protected from this for a little while. The ones that are maybe a bit more at risk are the contracts that are due at the end of next year. So you've got Monaco's on that list. I don't think Monaco in theory is going to be at risk.

Let's me sign the deal away immediately. Yeah. I don't think they'll do anything with Monaco in terms of rotation. Monza is another one. In theory, maybe again, like. they could rotate with Imola for the Italian Grand Prix. I don't think they'd lose Monza. Do not be silly.

That would be blast for me to Formula One. And then the other two are Imola and Spa. And those are the two that rightly or wrongly, I could see those two, maybe rotating with each other or rotating with another Grand Prix. That could be a possibility. The other one that was spoken about quite recently

was Barcelona and how it would like to stay on the grid and maybe the way to do it would be to rotate it was Zandvort. That wouldn't surprise me. But those are the ones to me that might be most at risk at this point. I'd be very curious to see. And this is no disrespect to our lovely Netherlands fan base and the brilliance of you loving Formula One. But I would be very interested to see the level of support that Netherlands would

give to Formula One if Max Verstappen were to shock retire. Obviously, Zandvort is growing a popularity massively because of just how brilliant Max Verstappen has been in the career he's forward. but I do wonder how many of those fans are Formula One generally or just Max for Sappham specific. So they'd be interesting to see the popularity of that Grand Prix in the future years once Max decides to pack it in. Harry, any closing thoughts on circuits that might be most at risky?

Yeah, but I think this is my worries that we lose some good ones like Hungary, as you mentioned, Sam, Austria. I'm less bothered about Zamb vote. But, you know, it's sparse. Spar, for example, hasn't always been very safe on the list of tracks to stay. And yeah, it's just things like that. They'll worry me. We lose some core.

And I know Formula One is very European-centric. But if you look back at where we've had some great races, they tend to be at these tracks. So, yeah, I do worry we might lose. And that's why my point around, you know, you end up with a street circuit version one year and the core version for another. And I'd rather that, then obviously, than losing them all together.

But just keep them. I'll tell you what we can do, mate. We can just have one year where it's all, like, actual race circuits. And the other year can just be 100% street circuits. Just look, and we'll call it Formula Ree. Yeah. And we'll come back again.

And the podcast will run every other year. We'll have a year off. Yeah, nice. Okay, fine. Yeah. I do worry. But anyway, hopefully, hopefully not. We'll see what happens on that one.

It's something we've discussed for a while, so maybe it doesn't actually result in anything because that would follow the trend of every other time we've spoken about this. But we're going to take our final break on this episode. On the other side, we've got a top five list. Woo! Welcome back, everyone. We're going to close out today's episode with a top five list.

Now, this one resulted in Max, or has come about, I guess, as a result of Max Verstapp. very impressive recent drive at the 2024 Brazilian Grand Prix in wet conditions. So keeping with that, our top five today is top five wet weather drives. Quite vague, intentionally vague, so we don't even necessarily need to stick to races. We could go to qualifying efforts. They don't have to be wins in the Grand Prix. The criteria is pretty much anything we want, as long as it has something to do with wet weather driving in Formula One. So Sam started. us off. What's number five on your list?

Yeah, I want to caveat this list because I did to the boys before we start recording that I actually have a top 10 list of things that have immediately just missed out, which will get onto once our list had done, just in case they weren't mentioned. But my actual list, I don't know if I agree with it. That's how close all this is. Fifth, I've got the 2011 Grand Prix, Button, Canada. It's sensational drive. The amount of chaos that went along in that Grand Prix, the red flags. They're coming from essentially the back of the grid to the front. the battle alongside Sebastian Vetter was historic, incredible.

It felt like that Grand Prix is still actually going on with how long it was run for at the time. But yeah, one of those drives that you still remember today quite clearly with how good it was. Harry, number five on your ranking list that you've done from fifth to first, really interested to hear your rankings here. What's number five on your ranking list, Harry?

Coming in at five or maybe four, three, two or one. No, I'm checking. I'm actually banked list. Switches off recording. We're done here. Button Canada is in my top ten, but I've actually not put in my top five. But this is how tough this list is actually. Number five, I put Hamilton Turkey 2020.

Ooh. Okay. Which, well, come on to other ones. It's up there. It's flawless. Yeah, one of the best wet weather drives. we have seen. My only caveat for why I put it in number five

is that that car, and I know he qualified relatively far down for that race, it was a unique weekend, but that car was better than anything else ever in 2020. I mean, 2020 is a bad thing. I don't live it in 2020.

It's just the best thing ever. Best thing ever. It might be the best Formula One car of all time. So that's the, and I'm not taking it away from Hamilton because it was a sensational, sensational drive. That's the only reason I've put it down at 5,

and that's not saying it's a bad thing. but yeah obviously is come back through the field and to claim championship number seven was quite the day where others faltered. So yeah, number five is that one. For everyone keeping tally, that was sixth on my list.

The first one of the ones just missing out. Bottas is still spinning. Oh, bless him. Similar to you, Sam, I do want to put a slight caveat on my list as well. There are a couple of performances that I have read about and know about that were probably epic from like the 60s and 70s.

I haven't included these on my list because I can't attest to them personally, even if I'm aware of what happened at them. I'm just going with races here that I've either watched the full race or at least like extended highlights of. Fifth on my list, I'm going to 2008 and I'm going to the Italian Grand Prix where Sebastian Vettel won. It wasn't a good car, to put it mildly. He had 13 points going into this race.

the season. The team itself, it was quite early on in the team's life, but no podiums, no pole positions, nothing going into this Grand Prix. And that all changed by what he did. He got pole in the rain. I think Kovalin is the only driver within half a second of his pole position time. Very impressive. And what he was able to do, particularly in the first half of that race, where he was able to speed away from the likes of Kovalinan, he was he was 21 years old as well. well, like, he had the air of someone who had been doing it for like 10 years, which wasn't the case in 2008. So a really assured performance in difficult conditions. Yes, late on in the Grand Prix, some of those other teams and drivers were a bit quicker, but he had

done all the hard work early on and it was a very comfortable win. Again, it was a Toro or so. He's fifth on my list. Number four, Sam. Pure recency bias. I'm aware of my recently bias. So you can't come for me because I've owned up to it immediately, but the Max Verstap in Brazil 2024 Grand Prix back drive, I think is already underplayed. I think it's already underrated before the safety cars, before the reg flags, the kid had moved up to sixth place from 17th in just a handful of laps. He was taking laps that no one else could contend with. The radio message alone from Charles LeCler asking about what's the fastest lap and the Ferrari engineers coming back and going, just don't ask. Because for Stavis,

The Zappen has quite literally got a bloody money gun firing out fastest laps every two seconds is just supreme. I know that in second or third we had Alpins, but the gap that he pulled from the halfway point to the end of the race is sensational. To all the chaos that he went through to not have a single mistake to not come into contact with anyone, especially with how Verstappan has driven previously. We know that he is a man that can push boundaries alongside his rivals. It was so good. It was a breathtakingly good Grand Prix. And it only kind of settled in for me a few days ago,

just how good that drive was from Max Verstappen. So it's definitely some recency bias in there. And I've got some older ones coming up. But that's the number four. Harry, what's going to follow Hamilton at Turkey 2020? What's number four? Before I get to number four, I absolutely forgot about better than Monsa 08.

I won't bother trying to put him in my list. But so sorry, Sab. It's another one that is just missed out for me. Yeah, but people who have made it in. Anyway, number four is Ayrton's Senna, Donington, 1993. That, it was one of those days where no one else could come close. I think Senna one point went through the pits and didn't pit. He just pit.

He just was in the pits. He did it tell the skewers to cancel the race. that was the point. He said, stop the race because it's too wet. I'm pretty sure he came through. It was just by accident, but he set the, he set. It was a shortcut. He set the fastest lap.

I read up there. He was trying to tell the Stewart's just to reg flag the race because it was too wet. Yeah, I don't know, maybe. But anyway, he went through the pit several times that day. It was one of the days where you just kept changing tires and then changing back again because it was April in the UK. And obviously that means it's drizzly as hell. But yeah, Sena was on touchball.

and his first lap alone, obviously fifth, the first is iconic and historic. Lap of the gods. So, yeah, that's coming at number four. Number four for me, I'm staying in 2008, and I'm going to the British Grand Prix at Silverstone and what Hamilton was able to do on that day. This is one that we recently reviewed as part of our historic race reviews on Patreon. So if you're part of our middle or upper tier,

or if you'd like to become a middle or upper tier subscriber, you can go ahead and listen to our thoughts on that Grand Prix. He was very, very good, wasn't he? He overtook Kikover line and his teammate on lap five of the race. He basically just stalks him for five laps and then goes, okay, I've had enough of this and then just takes off. He gets maybe a touch fortunate because Ferrari decided to Ferrari their race by pitting Kimmy Reichenen on to the wrong tires or keeping him on the wrong tires.

so well done there. But even so, he makes, I think, one small error, but other than that, he is by far the class of the field. He won by over a minute, which was the biggest win margin since 1995. And unless I'm missing something, I don't think we've had a bigger win margin since that day in 2008.

Nope. Nothing immediately comes to mind. So, yeah, very impressive performance. Harry, number three. That one. yeah Hamilton 08 Silverston as good as Turkey 2020 was for Hamilton I think his Silverston 08 was still marginally better

but that speaks volumes as to how good 08 was like you like said Ben he was he was an actual million miles in front of everyone else that day they weren't even close so yeah number number three I'll I'll go ahead with what's three on my list because myself and Harry have basically just switched fourth and third,

because I've got the European Grand Prix 1993 for Ayrton Senna, third on my list. There's not too much more to add on what you've already said. He's just incredibly quick on the day. He wins by over a minute. It's only Damon Hill that's not lapped across the entire field. I do want to add a couple of things that aren't even related to Ayrton Center about this race, just because I think they're interesting. Firstly, and this is not a dig at Johnny Herbert, I absolutely promise you,

because he finishes fourth in this Grand Prix and many others don't finish. He finishes fourth and pits once. Alan Pross finishes third and pits seven times. It's just a bad start. Alan, what are you doing, mate? Come on. The other thing I do want to give credit for, and again, it's not even an inner thing.

You've mentioned his lap of the gods from fourth to first. So good. Rubens Barrakello goes from 12th to fourth on that first lap. he has an unbelievable start and no one talks about it because of the Senna start which I know makes sense. Barrichello actually made his way up to second before of course he had to retire because he's Rubens Barrakello.

Yeah, of course. But he, I don't know, he made a bit of a name for himself that day, I think, just because of what Senna did, it's overshadowed quite a lot. But yeah, Senna's pace, he was probably on the wrong tire at a lot of different points in this Grand Prix and made it work because he's at in Senna. number three for you Sam I've got Schumacher in Spain

96 at number three the car simply wasn't there in comparison to a lot of his key rivals and the fact that he managed to why he was disqualifying by second which is unreal then put the lapsing and just the ability for him to keep

cranking out against the rivals are this was before the dominance of that Ferrari as well going up against that Williams which was sensational he at one point was lapping five seconds faster than anyone else on the racetrack. This was early, early days of Schumacher. He only got the one title and he was willing to kind of, I don't know,

he was just still blowing people away so early on his career. It was just an absolute class of his own. And it's one of those ones I had to go back and watch because I wasn't too familiar with it because I was only one years old at the time. But it was just, again, I'm amazed that Schumacher hasn't come up more on this list already, but maybe he does for the others later on in the list. but what a performance this wasn't a car

that definitely wasn't there to be competing at that level. The runner up, Harry, what have you got? Just happen, Brazil, 24. Again, people might come out of me for reason to see bias on this, but I've already said this on the, I think it's on our Power Rankings episode.

I think it's up there with these great weather drivers that we remember, Sela 93 Donington, etc. And people just won't accept that yet because it was only a couple of weeks ago, but he was that good on that day. The Red Bull is still not the best car at this time, I don't think. I know it's got better again in recent times, but it's still not the best car. But Verstappen could find Grip where no one else could.

Like literally no one else could. But not only could he do that, he made zero mistakes. That's probably why I'm putting so high up on the list here. obviously number one is Esteban Okon, Brazil 2020 I'm so glad we've got the same number one, that's great. Making a hack-cric boys. But yeah, obviously that top of three

we've always spoken about, didn't make mistakes, but Vastappen was flawless and came from so far back. And you, none of, I know, again, we've talked about the lack of the safety car, whatever, but I think he's coming through to win that, regardless he was that good on that day. So I've got him at number two. And I think in years to come, people will agree with me more than they would now.

Certainly, I don't know his fans, probably not. Yeah, probably. Sam, run a wrap on your list. It's already mentioned. Matt Pether God's Sennon 93. Simply a supreme performance. And what separates it for me is the people he had to race against in that Grand Prix. It wasn't like he was going up against

relative with newcomers. If Barra Keller was the man he was going up against him, I'd start on Barrichella, but at that point he was still very much making an aim for himself. He was up against the likes of Alan Prost, who's already been mentioned. He was going up against Hill, of course, who had been really starting to make his moves in Formula One at that point.

There were some real class drivers going up against him, who were also well known for wet weather performances, and he wiped the floor with all of them. He had a league of 83 seconds come the end of it. And we're talking about Hamilton's brilliant, brilliant lead. this was phenomenal. It was a different class. So Senga at Dongington, we're sorry you had to brace that awful weather here in a British April, but you make it look good like no one else can. I'm staying with Sennar for my runner-up spot, but instead the 1985 Portuguese Grand Prix.

Sick on the list that just made it. It was a fitting first win for him, put it that way. He debuted an F1 in 1984 for Tolman, but the car wasn't very good. He was only on a few occasions really able to show what he can do. 1985, he moves to Lotus, better team, gets pole position here. I think this was the second race of the season. He is over a second quicker than drivers for the majority of this Grand Prix, including his teammate. There was a lot of heavy rain towards the end of this Grand Prix,

which meant it was pretty much a snail's pace to end this. But he led every lap. He won by over a minute. He lapsed everyone apart from McKelley Alberetto in second. Not a bad first winner and not bad at all. Which leads us to our overall winners. Harry, what is the greatest weather drive in F1 history? Probably not a shock.

Sam's already mentioned this one, but I've gone for Schumacher, Spain 96. An obvious answer for an obvious Schumacher fan boy. But that car, as Sam alluded to, it's probably seen as, you know, Oh yeah, Schumacher and a Ferrari bound to win. The car in 1996 was an actual, actual crap box, worse than a Salpa now.

It was terrible. And those first few races, Schumacher came off the back of two championship wins of Benetton, gone to Ferrari. Start that year, that car is terrible. Or mostly the year, the car is terrible. But on that day, if you go back, as Sam would attest to us,

as you've watched it recently, go back and watch some clips we wouldn't run an F-1 race nowadays in that weather terrifying it is so soggy he said isn't he that if he was in the Benetton he won that far easier at that point burn Jean-Aleases

yeah the savagery rinsed but yeah I think all of these there's more more drives on the list that have made my top five the set of Portuguese Portugal 85 would have them Vettel 08 had I remembered he existed

sorry, sub but yeah, that's that's up there with my with yeah, my number one my number one wet weather drive I think it's it's probably not forgotten about it's not forgotten about but probably just assumed that it's it wasn't it was easy

for Schumacher because he's in a Ferrari but yeah it wasn't a Ferrari of the early naughties it was it was a terrible terrible car same that's my winner You say that Ferrari. I went with hot garbage. Oh, nice.

But yes, crap box is also definitely applicable. There's a reason Eddie Irvine, who was not a bad driver, there's a reason Eddie Irvine finished that season 10th with 11 points. It was not a good car. And I think probably Eddie Irvine himself can say it better than I can. So I'm going to read a quick quote of what he thought. of that year's Ferrari. How Michael drove that car, I'll never know.

It really impressed me. I was scared to turn the steering wheel because he didn't know if it was going to turn immediately in half a second or in a second. You had no idea what it would do. He drove it on every millimeter of the road. He won three races that year, which is one of the greatest achievements

in motor racing history. Irvine hated that car, and rightly so, it was awful. He loses the lead, sorry, he loses third place early on in this race because of a clutch problem. he's leading it by lap 12. 12, that's it.

And he builds up such a gap that he's able to pit later on in the middle of the race and keep the lead. That was a phenomenal Grand Prix. And it happened not long after, it might be in the next race after the Monaco Grand Prix, which was also in wet conditions where he didn't do anywhere near as well. So it was a bit of a bounce back statement win, I think, for Schumacher as well. So yeah, that's my number one. I reckon by the powers of deduction here, I might be able to guess what your number one is, Sam,

but surprise me, what have you got? I have a guess, go on. Please be Estabana. Pierre Gassi, third place. Hamilton Silverstone, 08. It is Hamilton Silverstone, 08. Yes, as a boyhood, Lewis Hamilton fan, and when I was fully in my early days of Formula One,

a great British bias, it was something to behold. It was, I'm sure you're all went through it, especially if you grew up with watching a sport, there's a lot of things you don't fully remember because you were too young to fully comprehend them, then you have to go back and remind yourself. This period of Formula One between like 2000 and 2003 and 2010, I was consciously able to watch Formula One fully,

understand what was going on, really get behind it. And as much as I love your Schemacher's, when Hamilton came in 2007, that was kind of the first time that I really kind of, I followed a driver. That's the first time I really followed properly a driver. And always it felt like something was going on. And there is a personal bias there.

There is a personal relationship there. And that is always going to push something up. I'm not afraid to say, that's going to push something up the rankings. But that drive was incredible. He was up against some really brilliant drivers at the time. You know, Bussing got caught out multiple times. Philippe Massa, his title rival in this year, spang five times. It was embarrassing the level of amount of times he spang.

Andrew Benson, who is quite a, you know, well-known writer. Was he in the race? He was second. He felt just beat him. He came up with this quote. This was a day when one driver made the others look like amateurs when his performance reached such heights

they scarcely seemed possible at times Hamilton was four or five seconds faster than all other pursuers. Even teammate Heike Klovenin in a directly similar car. These sorts of margins are not unknown in F1 but they tend to happen only when the very greatest drivers in their best conditions

that test the field to the absolute limit occur. It was a drive, as Ben already mentioned. We haven't seen a gap like it now for nine on 30 years other than this Grand Prix. He was a master in those conditions and I'm still blown away by how good he was. Ryking and looked like he could have come close. Poor call from Ferrari. We're shocked. But it really was something fantastic. It really was a mind-blowingly good performance. And yes, there is a personal relationship with that that put that put that on the top for me. So that's my number one. I've got a couple others that we can get on to,

I suppose, but any others that haven't been mentioned from the chaps that didn't make your list? I don't think any were close other than the ones that you've actually put on your list that weren't on mine. Ben, I imagine the two that you were talking about when you said at the start that you hadn't ever seen but were from the 60s were Jim Clarks and Jackie Stewart's. Yeah, I know particularly Jackie Stewart's 1968, German Grand Prix. I know it's very much referred to as maybe the greatest performance in F1 history, but I just can't.

I haven't seen it properly and wasn't. I can't believe popular opinion denies it, but I wasn't actually. alive for this Grand Prix. You just turned 40, in you? Honestly, if we swore on this show. You're a young man. I had one.

There wasn't a race wing, nor was it qualifying. But I've actually got down here for Step in 2016. Because I thought Brazil, his performance there was also spectacularly good and deserved a mention outside of everything else. You throw Germany 19 in there as well. Another spectacular performance. Yeah, the Boeing has had a drive in the way. and he's making a name for himself to be up there with the best ever in that condition.

All righty. So those are our top five lists. We're very interested, as always, to hear what you have to say. So do you agree with those that we've put in our list? Are there some that we've completely missed that should be there? Let us know. But for this episode, at least, Sam, if you wouldn't mind, getting us out of here. Folks, thanks for listening.

We will be back midweek for some more F1. Goodness. But don't forget, if you fancy some more stuff in the, gaps while you're waiting, Patreon is available. The links in the description below. And we've got loads of stuff happening on there. You can catch up with all the B-Wer Breakings, all the historic race reviews. We've got another one coming up very, very soon for

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Wave, Harry. Wave, wave, Harry. I'm waving. Why have you taking your clothes off? That's so weird. Anyway. They went on the whole time, mate. Right, that's it. Folks, thanks for listening. We'll see you very soon. In the meantime, I've been Samuel the same.

I've been Ben Hocking. And I've been Harry Eats. And remember, keep breaking late. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.