The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Can Bottas keep his seat at Mercedes? | Episode 54

Episode Date: June 25, 2020

With just 1 week to go until the first race in Austria, the boys chat about what they think Valtteri Bottas needs to do to keep his seat at Mercedes, discuss McLaren's financial troubles, and name the races and drivers they wish they had been able to see live.Make sure to SUBSCRIBE!TIME STAMPS:Bottas discussion: (03:25)McLaren chat: (15:35)Drivers we wish we'd seen live: (24:41) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to look out for new episodes every Thursday and Grand Prix Sundays. Hello and a very warm welcome to the late breaking Formula One podcast. Welcome wherever you might be listening. Whenever you might be listening. We are just, was it, 10 days away now from the first Formula One race of the season, and hopefully for real this time.

Harry and Sam are both joining me, of course. Guys, how are you? That was such an enthusiastic welcome, Ben, that I am now amped for the podcast. Before that, I was asleep. So thank God you started so eagerly. Yeah, it was really enthusiastic, Ben. Well done.

Unlike Harry, who came in seven seconds later after I finished speaking. Oh, no, we're out of sync. No, you're fine, you muppy. You just took ages to respond. Oh. Anyway, good start to the podcast. Well, yeah, I mean, 50 seconds in, that might be a new record for the first mess up.

But actually, no, it's no, we've definitely messed up before that. Who am I kidding? Today, we're going to be speaking about Valtrey Bottas and what would make a good season for him. And more importantly, for his sake, what does he need to do to maintain his seat for the 2021 season? We're going to be looking at McLaren. They're looking at financial issues at the moment. We ask exactly how they're going to get out of it, and whether this will affect them on track.

A driver and a race that we wish we were alive for. We're old, but we're not that old. There were races before we were born. We're going to be discussing those. And lastly, we're going to end with a game. To be honest, I haven't really decided what the title should be, but we're going to put two drivers up against each other, and we're going to debate which one you would take in that scenario.

But first of all, I was going to say we're going to go on to the Valfrey Botas story, but we're going to start with our thoughts going out to Alex Zanardi, who since our last podcast has been involved in a road accident whilst competing in a hand cycling race in Italy. That was on June 19th. He underwent neurosurgery and has been placed in a medically induced coma at the time of speaking. And Zanardi, one of most sports's most inspirational figures when you consider he's extremely talented guy. He was a two-time cart champion back in the 90s, had two stints in Formula One. He then suffered that horrific crash back in 2001, which saw both of his legs amputated.

And this is where, you know, his inspiration really comes in because he returned to racing, I think less than two years after he had that crash. He's been racing ever since as well. You know, he's in his mid-50s now. He's still racing. And he's become a four-time Paralympic goal. medalists. So I just want to say to one of most sports good guys, one of the most inspirational

out there, we all wish him the very best and hope he can recover from this. Fawkes-Zernardi. Well said, Ben. Well said. Yeah, yeah, such gutting news. Such gutting news. The guy's already been through so much, but our thoughts are with him. Going on to our sort of first main topic today, and that is Valtrey Bottas and what would make a good season for him, what does he need to do in order to secure his seat for one more year? Of course, we know that Ferrari and Red Bull are primed for the future.

They've got Leclair and Vastappen lined up. Talk continues about George Russell and whether he will make an appearance in the car at some point and when that might be. And that could well have to be at the expense of Valtry Bottas. So, Sam, what do you think he needs to achieve this year? I think realistically, and I'm, I'm going to be harsh with it because he's got a longer competition and he's in the most successful team of all time now in terms of consecutive wings and championships and whatnot.

He needs to finish the season, probably within 10 to 15 points of Hamilton, I think. I don't think he needs to beat Hamilton. He is the number two driver. He is the wing man to Hamilton. Yes, Mercedes have said that if he's in a title winning position, he can go for it. But as a perspective, as an onlooker, he's a secondary man who is there to help them take home the Constructed's championship. he's done that every season, but it's not exactly been the most comfortable of results.

You know, he went a whole season once without winning. Hamilton won the championship, which is unheard of. It's incredible. So I think he needs to really, you know, if it is going to be another Mercedes championship, which the chances are it could be, he needs to take Hamilton down to the wire.

It has to be maybe Hamilton winning it in the second to last Grand Prix, if not the last Grand Prix, 10 to 15 points between him at the end of it, a good number of race wings. The guy needs to really pull out all the stops. he needs to have the best season of his career, I think, to withstand the pressure of those of George Russell,

because Hamilton's going to be off soon. You've got the likes of Norris, who is currently at McLaren, who are financially struggling at the moment, so they might want to move him up if the opportunity arises. And then, yeah, Russell and Norris is a team, if Hamilton steps away eventually, sounds amazing.

And there's a lot of great drivers also looking around at that seat. The Sangers have got options. And Bossath hasn't really proving himself. You can tell that the Sages don't think he's proving himself by the continuation of the one. one-year contract time and time again. He has never done enough for them to cement a multiple-year deal for Bottas. And you need to be doing that.

If you're going to be in a championship-winning car, we saw how Rosberg drove, and it's Hamilton. Rosberg put Hamilton to the test. You know, he put him to the wire and he did a good job. He won a title, despite Hamilton having eight races affected by something. Anyway, Bostas needs to be up there with Hamilton when Hamilton is at his best. And it doesn't need to beat him. It just needs to be as close as you can be.

Otherwise, I think it's time that we put an app and comer into the team. Okay, so hypothetically speaking, Bottas in 2020 has the exact same season he had in 2019 in terms of how close he is to Lewis Hamilton. What do they do in that scenario? Get ring, then. I think with the new regs coming after that season, obviously for 2022, you're on a fresh plate, you can take some time.

Russell's proving he knows what he's doing. I think at that point with a new car and everyone's going to be a little over the place, that's a good time to get a new driver into the team, to just learn the new regs from scratch and get used for the team. So if he struggles like he did last time out, that's your time to cut, cut your losses, get a new guy in. Okay, so second, but it has to be an improved second. Harry, would you concur with that?

Do you think he needs to be at that level in order to secure his seat for one more year? I think I disagree with Sam, which is shocking. I think he can have the same year as he had in 2019, because from a Mercedes perspective, what did he do wrong? He helped seal another Constructors' Championship. Their main guy, Hamilton, won the driver's championship. So from their point of view, why would you get rid of him?

He wins a couple of races. He's not close enough to Hamilton to trouble him, and they get both championships on one go. And yes, if we're looking towards the future, maybe it's not the best long-term plan. But say they've got another number one driver they want to bring on, they can bring them on when Hamilton retires because I don't see Hamilton having too many years left.

And I think Bottas is a solid number two at the moment. So, yeah, I think it wouldn't make any sense for them to get rid of them, to be honest. He can keep going as he is. Leave Valtry alone. Exactly. Is what Harry's name. Not quite in the same passionate way as about Brendan Hartley, who bless his soul. Oh, we'd love you, Brendan.

One day he'll return. He'll return. Don't worry. Okay, so the thing is with this, I don't think Valtrey Bottas's performances are a factor by itself. I think there are so many other factors at play here that I don't want to say Bottas's performance is a meaningless, but they need to be put into context with what's going on around him for Mercedes to make this decision. If Bottas wins the championship, of course they keep him.

If Bottas finishes 20th, of course they don't. The reality is he will probably finish somewhere between second and four-four-fif and they are left with a bit of a trickier decision, in which case you could say Bottas's performances might be enough, but are they enough considering other factors? First of all, George Russell, you know, George Russell was at one. one season at a car that was basically not competing in the same sport as the other nine teams. If that ends up being exactly the same situation in 2020, it makes it very difficult to have

much confidence in terms of putting him in a car. Can you imagine Mercedes putting someone in a car who has zero career points? Even though that's not down to George Russell's performances, that requires a massive leap of faith from Mercedes that I don't know as someone, you know, they're fairly risk-averse, they like to stick with drivers, rather than rotate them around every year. I don't know whether they would take that gamble. But of course, if Russell does have a good year and he does show signs of being very good,

maybe at that point, he's more of a consideration. The other massive factor is what does Hamilton do? If at the end of this season, Mercedes and, well, Hamilton himself and also Mercedes, are confident in terms of what he's going to do. If Hamilton signs a new three or four year contract, then suddenly Bottas is leverage, goes massively down because Hamilton's going to be their number one driver and the need for a

second driver and the need for the future suddenly becomes much more important and Bottas becomes less important as a result of that. If they are unsure of what Hamilton's going to do, then suddenly Bottas and his consistency and always supporting Hamilton comes in handy because Mercedes do not want to be in a position where they get rid of Bottas, say at the end of this season, and then Hamilton at the beginning of 2021 decides, actually, I'm going to leave at the end of this year. What do you have in that scenario? You have George Russell plus someone else who will be new to the team. That's not what Mercedes won.

So I think Hamilton's security over his future will play massively into this. I think second place is enough. I think the question comes into third or fourth. I'm not sure if third and fourth is enough. I would definitely say second is. Yeah, Bottas had a great 2019. I mean, yes, he didn't beat Hamilton, but like we say a lot of the time,

that isn't a massive crime. I mean, Hamilton is one of the best drivers of all time. Being a number two driver to him is far from a disgrace. And he regularly does keep him on his toes. It's not as if Bottas doesn't take pole positions and wins away from Hamilton. He just doesn't do it quite enough. And as long as he keeps finishing,

you know, he finished second last year. As long as they can keep securing championships, what more can Mercedes achieve? To your point, Harry, Rosberg and Hamilton secured championship after championship. And the only negative thing about that was their two drivers were in turmoil. They didn't like each other. They go in spats.

They're still winning as much as they did when they had Rosberg, but they don't have that turmoil anymore. So really, it's a win-win for Mercedes. If you were to ask who's the better driver, Rosberg or Bottas, I would personally say Rosberg, and I think most would agree, but it's not as if they're achieving less now. So that definitely plays into Bottas's favour. I completely get that, you know, Ferrari and Red Bull have secured their future, and Mercedes are not going to want to be caught out.

They're going to be aware, you know, they're too smart to let this just pass them by. But Bottas, you know, through his performances, he needs to prove. prove that he could win a title if Lewis Hamilton goes. And theoretically, if Lewis Hamilton wasn't there last year, Bottas is world champion. So he proved it in 2019, but he didn't prove it in 2018, obviously. He wouldn't have been the champion. One out of two isn't good enough for Mercedes,

and I don't think they're going to have enough confidence. If Bottas finished his second again this year, you know, he's finished second the last two years at that point, then I think they have confidence that Bottas is good enough to lead them into the future if he needs to. I've just looked it up and in 2019, howitzing of Botas were separated by about 90 points, which is a lot between two teammates. That is a lot of points.

In 2018, Howmitting a Bottas were separated by 141 points. I think that's the biggest gap between a teammate we've ever seen. Weber and Vettel were obviously close, but I don't. don't know what theirs is off the top of my head, but that's disgraceful. I knew it was bad, but that is disgraceful. If he has another season like that again, this coming season, he's not consistently good enough to be the second driver of the best team Formula One's ever seen. Sorry, that's not enough.

He needs to be neck and neck with Hamilton. Otherwise, he hasn't earned his spot. One good season, as you said then, one in two, is not good enough. You need to be up there. He had a better season with Williams the year before he joined Mercedes. You know, how ridiculous is that? he needs to do better and he needs to be more consistent. He needs to be with the tails of Hamilton more often.

He's not been good enough for me. Consistently not good enough. There's a couple tracks where he does well and that's that's about it for me. I need to see more from the second driver of the best team we're seeing. Ferrari are strengthened, Red Bull has strengthened. It's going to come and bite them if they're not careful. So for me, they need to do something on the extra. I mean, 2018 was not brilliant for.

for Votas, of course. I mean, losing by that many points indicates that. For the record, I think Weber and Vessel was probably a bigger gap. But, I mean, that's almost beside the point. It was too big, regardless. But Bottas's 2018 was ridiculously unlucky. It should not have been that margin. You know, I think he was pretty much as good in 2018 as he was in 2019, which might sound weird.

But considering the amount of bad luckier in 2018, I think that gap would have evened out to similar to what it was in 2019. I'm not saying Botas doesn't need to improve. There are areas of his game he needs to improve. On his day, he's good enough. Absolutely he's good enough. He just needs to do it three in every four races rather than one in every four races, which seems to be the case at the moment. But, you know, like I say, if Hamilton isn't there in 2019, Bottas wins a title. Well, folks, there you go. Bottas a title winner. I don't think Bottas will ever win a world championship, personally. I think the year that if Bottas ever does get close and Hamilton maybe Falters,

I think Red Bull have got it together by that point. I think Red Bull are going to be a real threat. So I think that could spoil the party for Hamilton or Bottas. So unfortunately, I think Bottas's time has come and gone for any potential success. Poor Walter. Interesting. Good old Walter. We do love Walter. We do love Walter. But we'll leave him alone for this week. episode and we'll move on instead to to McLaren who are facing a few financial headaches at the moment potentially facing insolvency within the next month you know they're seeking a they're in the high court at the moment they're trying to secure a loan based on based on their

HQ and their historic cars and yeah it's about whether they can secure this loan or not because they are having massive financial difficulties particularly related to a lack of their roadcar sales in the first part of 2020. Harry, how concerning is this for one of Formula One's longest standing teams? It is absolutely concerning. But as you said then, I do think it's something that concerns the automotive division of McLaren rather than the F1 team. And that's not to say that there wouldn't be any impact on the F1 team.

but the automotive industry as a whole during COVID-19 has been brought to a complete standstill so they're not the only car company who have this issue. Yeah, you just hope that they can get it. I don't know the full story, but someone's invested or someone blocking them, trying to block them getting this extra investment. But I saw the figure that they've spent over the past,

few years is mind-boggling and they've had to do it because we've seen McLaren in 2017 compared to where they were in 2019 they've had to rebuild the team so it's obviously been unnecessary and a successful win-away spend but obviously no one anticipated what would happen this year so it is concerning I'm of course worried about McLaren but at the same time I think once the racing starts this will help and also I don't don't see, I don't see them, we're not going to lose them from the sport. Maybe they'll become a slightly reduced company, maybe they don't make as many automotive cars, or sorry, road-going cars.

But yeah, I don't, I don't think we're going to lose McLaren off the grid any time soon. Interesting stuff. And of course, they did slash a percentage of their workforce earlier on in the year. Sam, what do you make of the story that's developing here? It's really sad, generally really sad. I mean, we've seen that Williams are struggling, you know, they've lost Rocket. And I heard, you know, there was rumors that Rocket and Mercedes were in talks about pairing up.

And I don't know if that just is an interesting deal for Mercedes or maybe they need a little more financial backing in their racing team as well as, you know, away from their automotive, their roadgoing cars. But interesting, I actually did some research, folks, bizarrely. And I've got the figures in front of me. What? I know. I know. It's shocking.

It has happened. McLaren's revenue, and this is the McLaren company, got the Formula One team. the revenue fell from $280 million to $136 million in the first quarter of this year compared to last year. So the 12-month span between March 2019 to March 2020, they lost almost $100 million, which is crazy. Now, what they're trying to do to rectify it is sell a steak in the Formula One team. No, I'm not talking about that tasty food that you can order. I'm talking about actual shares, actual ownership rights. anyone theoretically could come in and take over that team to a large degree.

And that could be really interesting. It could be really exciting. It can be someone that respects the historic element of McLaren, loves the team, loves where they're going and wants to be almost a silent backer. That could be really exciting. It could be another manufacturer that is interesting and maybe entering the sport. We've seen cars like BMW, Toyota, Porsche do really well. Is this a chance for them to get almost a cheaper way into the sport?

They just have to develop an engine. It's still expensive. but it's a good way into a place that's got a lot of pedigree, it's got a lot of talent. The drivers they've got there are fantastic. It is really negative for McLaren. It's not good.

But if you try and sping it into a positive, there are some good options here, although I'm not sure putting their historic cars up as a loan is going to get them enough money to finance what they need. Historical cars are expensive. They're not hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars expensive.

They are a lot more than I will ever be able to afford, but I don't think they're going to, going to manage to run an entire company, fund all that staff and pay for an F1 team all at the same time, unfortunately. I think if they continue to get blocked for another month, they're going to need something quite drastic. I hope they stay in the sport. Massive McLaren fan. I've always loved them. You know, they are near and dear to everyone in racing in terms of Formula One. So I hope they don't disappear anywhere. There are some real positives that could come out of this if the right party takes interest. But as I've literally got on my screen here, Forbes, say the six, the six,

situation is dire. So, um, not ideal. Hopefully they can turn it around. Yeah, I, I actually think they're going to be all right with this. I think they'll get out the other side. Obviously, it's not, not great for them, but yeah, I think, I think they'll weather this storm theoretically with, with F1 coming back very soon. You know, that's going to help obviously, massively. And in terms of the company as a whole, I would imagine that their, their road car sales are going to pick up at some point. It's a very difficult first quarter for them. Selling a stake in the team, like you're right to say, Sam, is an option for them. It's something that's been floated around with Williams as well.

My instinct is it doesn't come down to that. I don't think they'd be overly happy to give away part of them. I think they will try to avoid that at all costs. But yeah, it is an option. It's on the table and it should be something that they at least explore. the thing is, and I think this might come down to previous years as well, because they might well have secured a fourth in the championship last year. They spend about 200 million-ish on Formula One every year,

and that's okay if you're finishing fourth. It's still really, if you're spending 200 million, that would be the fourth biggest budget. So you kind of have to finish there at a very minimum. The problem is they haven't been prior to 2019. finishing much further down than that and still spending that amount of money is incredibly inefficient for the prize money as it is. And I know prize money is going to be more evenly distributed out and making minor profits out of Formula One is more likely to be something that can be done in future years, which is great for McLaren of the future, maybe not so great for McLaren of the present.

And I go back to Ricardo actually on this because, you know, Daniel Ricardo are not. entirely sure what he's going to be paid by McLaren when he makes his move to the team. I think it's very likely going to be less than what Renault was paying him, but it's still going to be quite a bit more than what signs was being paid. So I really don't think, McLaren are going to be on top of this. I don't think McLaren would have gone ahead with a move like that and forked out a lot of money on a driver if they knew they were going to be in serious trouble down the road. That move gives me confidence. confidence that they're going to be okay.

You know, but Claren had been around for a very long time. It's, what, over 50 years now since they, since they entered the sport. So, yeah, I would love to see them not only stick around, but thrive whilst they're in Formula One. It's been a long few years for the fans of the team. And finally, 2019 has given something of a spark. And it's given something of an idea of what it could be like to be turned around. a return of some glory years. Whether that materialises or not, I don't know.

This is a bit of a roadblock. I think they'll be fine. I do think they'll be all right. Well, that's positive. Yeah, it might be the optimist to be talking, but. Well, I think, you know, we've seen teams go through it. We've seen teams come out the other side. Williams are still going and they've really struggled.

Racing point, yes, and out becoming Ashton Martin. they were Force India, but pretty much a lot of the original crew are still working there and it's almost the same team. So, it can't happen. Hopefully they keep their game on their heritage. They've got a lot of wealthy backers, so I think they'll manage, but it'll be really, really sad

if they go anywhere. But I like you back, I am positive. Harry, how excited are you for Rich Energy McLaren? No. Discussing. Awful. Oh, dear. Yeah, sorry about that. Sorry for even joking about that. Stay away, Bill. Stay away. Anyway, we're going to move on from Rich Energy as quickly as they came in, much like their Formula One appearance. We're going to be

looking at drivers. Well, first of all, a driver who we wish we had seen live and then a race, which we wish we'd seen live. You know, we're fairly old, you know, we're getting on now. But there were races before we were born. We want to look back and say, I wish I was there for that one. I really wish I was there for that one. Harry, I'll kick off with you. A driver, please, that you wish you were able to see live. So many to choose from here, because, as you say, we're old, but we're not that old.

Is it Ricardo Rossett? Of course, I would love to have seen Ricky Rossett, my boy. No, but a serious, serious answer. The one I'm going to pick is Jim Clark, I think. To what? To what? watches and I think especially because you know less televised back in the 60s etc and there's less footage of Clark as there would be you know say a driver from the 80s such as Vilnav, Jill Vilnav obviously and Sena yeah I just think to watch Clark in one of those

1960s F1 cars would have been absolutely fantastic to watch I just yeah he's up there was as one of the greatest and yeah he would be my pick but it's a real tough question because there are so many I wish I could have seen. Yeah, yeah, it is a difficult one. I think that's a great choice as well. And I haven't gone for him, but he was very nearly my pick as well. Would have been brilliant seeing him drive some of those classic lotuses in the 60s. Sam, who have you got in mind?

Well, I've kind of broken the rules, as I often do when it comes to these things. Of course. And I've got two because of just, they are the most iconic rivalry in Formula One. I believe, and that is the Prost versus Senna rivalry. Both of them are incredibly talented gentlemen. Both of them are probably in the top five or six drivers of any person's top ten rankings of drivers of all time. And they were at each other's throats

from the majority of their career. And my God, were they just fantastic. You look at the footage back, you know, you watch the films, you watch the old races, you hear the stories. And you just get goosebumps listening to the way that people speak about those two behind the wheel of a Formula One car, you know, the scientist could cross the way he calculated every single movement. And Sena with that absolute raw talent, the way he could just eke, speed and resilient, say of a Formula One car, you know, such as Brazil, where it was it fifth gear, he was stuck in for the entire race, pretty much, and still comes home to wing his first debut race there.

You know, he got his first wing in Brazil with all those issues and collapses. What a moment in sport You don't see that kind of thing happening in sport anymore The cars were so physical And those two really mastered them For their era So I know it's a little bit cheating

But I think one wouldn't have been as brilliant Without the other So for me, it is Prost and Senga I would adore watching their entire rivalry Build from the start all the way to the end They were fantastic Yep, nothing good answer And as it would happen actually

I mentioned this before we went on air but I rewatched the Center documentary just two days ago. And it just made me wish that, yeah, I was able to see it unravel live. Because there are so many dramatic moments from that period of time. So definitely a good answer with that. But I have gone for someone different, actually. I've gone for Jackie Stewart. As you probably are both aware, I'm a big fan of Jackie Stewart.

and this lockdown period has caused plenty of unexpected scenarios, but perhaps one that is not entirely unexpected, is that I've managed to delve into 1970s season reviews. And Jackie Stewart, like, there's just an aura about him. There's something very special about Jackie Stewart. It's just an unbelievable combination of style, of substance, consistency, star power, pace, knowledge. He had, he was the complete package.

Like he ticked every box you needed from a Formula One racer, particularly a Formula One racer of that era. And he just seemed to be so far ahead of his time when you look at highlights of races from that time period. He's just smarter. He just knows how to work a championship, how to play the game. He knew that in an era where retirement, retirement was so common how to work a car and how to get the maximum performance every single time.

When he needed a result, he got one. And of course, is what he did for safety. He was really a driver that people looked up to. He was a locker room leader, I guess you could call him. He was, you know, yeah, he was that generation's leader. And the impact that he's had on Formula One, even after he's retired, been felt by so many. So yeah, Jackie Stewart for me, would have loved to see him live. Absolutely would have loved it. Fantastic choices.

Yeah. Well, could you imagine, Stuart, Clark, Senor and Pross. Those are four of the best. No doubt about that. Going on to a race then. So same idea, a race that we wish we'd been alive to see. Sam, what are you thinking on this one? So technically I was alive and not because I'm the world's oldest man, but because I was actually just a bit too young to realistically watch the telly and know what was going on at this point. I was only three when this race actually occurred. It was 1998. And the circuit itself has always produced fantastic racing every single season. Formula 1 fans love coming to this circuit. We love seeing it as a highlight every year. And that is the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix, that infamous wet race where absolute mayhem of David Cawson,

Spinging after LaSauce causing a multiple car pile up that I think it took out like 80% of the field. It was at Murray, screaming over the top, it makes it even more icon, being like, oh, that is one of the most reckless starts. It was horrible starts for a race I've ever seen. And it is horrible to watch all these cars crumple up against each other. But fortunately, we were in a time back then, and I have obviously gone back to watch the race, where you could all line up again for a restart, and you had extra cars and things happened like that. And you got that red flag, and the race players had restarted. So we got to see one of the best crashes of all time,

which is always fantastic. We go everyone walks out relatively all right. And then we got to see the race carry on again. And then it was really blimid difficult. You know, Hacking and I think he went. Irvine, he went. And then you had that massive moment where Schumacher was lapping Coulthard. And then he hits the back of the McLaren.

And then you're like, all right, mate. I don't come for a punchup down the bloody pit lane. That is iconic watching Shooters at the Battle of the Jaws. Schumacher walking down the pit lane and Coulter, I'll be like, I'll go have him, I'll go have him. That is incredible. And then to top it all off, Eddie Jordan gets a one-two. His team gets a one-two, which is like, what more do you need in a race? It's got everything.

It's fantastic track, wet weather, crashing, iconic moments, people fighting off track, an underdog getting a one-two. Eddie Jordan's there. I mean 1998, far Frank Ashamp, the Belgian Grand Prix, that is the race I wish I was an adult

watching live to just scream about because my lord, what an event that was. Yep, good answer. Also, love Eddie Jordan. Absolutely love Eddie Jordan. No need to make that comment

but actually there is a need because Eddie Jordan's appreciation should be as widespread as possible. Harry, who have you got? What have you got, I should say? I mean, any race with Eddie Jordan, as you say, he should be a winner. My ward is, my choice, is the 1987 British GP.

This is a bit patriotic of myself, but mainly for the last 11 laps or so, because you have Mansell out in the lead, and he comes into pit because I think it's a suspected puncher, he had a real puncher, I can't remember, and he loses the lead to PKK, and these two are fierce rivals, and is his home GP and then the last 11 laps he hunts him down

and then does that memorable dummy pass on hangar straight. I just think watching those 11 laps where he like breaks the track record some stupid amount of times as well in the process. That would have been insane to watch live. Just, yeah, Mansell hunting down Peké with those few laps to go. And then he goes on to win the race still. So yeah, that's my pick. But I mean, I obviously love Sam's pick as well.

Oh, great race. Solid choice, my friend. Yeah, some good choices. Ironically, I mean, I have three written down because I wasn't sure which one I was going for. And I guess it's kind of been made easy for me because Sam's already mentioned two that we're on the list. So first of all, 98, Belgium.

I'll just briefly go of it. Obviously, Sam, the points you made were absolutely right. Yeah, I was alive for the race, but too young to appreciate it. Yeah, Jordan's first win. For what it's worth, Murray Walker's commentary as Damon Hill crosses the line is my favourite bit of commentary in F1 history. It's amazing. If you haven't seen it, yeah, if you haven't seen it, please, I urge you to go and watch it.

And Damon Hill wins in Belgium. Fantastic. God, I love it. Anyway, enough of my Murray Walker impersonations. That shouldn't be a regular occurrence on this podcast. I know recently we asked the question, who is Michael Schumack's greatest rival? And Sam, you said David Culfard, and even though I still disagree with that answer, I can completely understand why you said it.

And you said it from a pure passion perspective. And that's what this race was all about, pure passion. The fact that Schumack had such a long career, and you picked out his best rival, or his biggest rival was David Coulthard, a lot of it resting on this race because of, that reaction to them to their bustup. Like, yeah, this race was an incredible one. The other one that you have already mentioned as well, Sam,

was the 91 Brazilian Grand Prix. Home crowd threat and centre. I think it was sixth gear he was stuck. I'm not 100% sure with gear it was. But he was stuck in. I could definitely be wrong. Yeah, fifth or sixth year, I can't know which one. But he was stuck in it for the last part of the race.

And yeah, he collapses as he gets out the car. He literally has to be removed from his car. And you can see like the pure joy, relief and struggle on the podium afterwards. Absolutely amazing scenes. And again, it just goes back to that sense of passion that you kind of wish you had. You were there for to throw another one out there as well. Michael Schumacher's epic win at the Spanish Grand Prix. I'd go, I'd say that one.

Literally any Schumacher race from the 90s as well. There were some epic ones in there But I mean, yeah, that's what I'm going to That's what I'm going to go for Villeneuve at the Spanish Grand Prix as well I'll throw that one in there as a last comment Have we tweeted this question before Because if we haven't, I reckon we should get that out there

Get over to our Twitter by the way, at L breaking, get involved I tell you yeah, by the time this goes live We'll have posted it So yeah, get over to our L breaking and let us know moving on to our final topic of today again not sure what the title of this is but we're going to give two drivers and you get the option which one do you want very simple and the first one the first decision that you have to make and sam i'll go to you first on this one who you're taking roman grojean or antonio jovanazzi so i think this is one of the harder ones out a lot

just for kind of clarity and transparency, folks. Ben messaged me and Harry the obvious beforehand, just so we can not have nothing to say. There is very regular time when me and Harry get asked a question. We go, I don't know. This was fortunately not one of those times. I mean, I'm going to go with Grojean. I'm going to go with Grojean because he's bloody lovely.

He's always smiling, and he? And knowing he's not smiling, is crying because he feels really bad. He can cook brilliantly, which is always fantastic to have on the team. He cares about you. more than he cares about anything else, which I absolutely love about him, it's nice. He's also, when he's really good, he's really good, all right? And Geo just hasn't really ever impressed me since it's coming to Formula One.

He's just not done enough for me. He's, he's all right. He's good enough, I think, to have another shot at another year of that alpha. If he messes it up, then I think he's gone. But yeah, he's all right. Grojean for me, he's had some fantastic races. He has had some brilliant performances. I think one of those was at Spar.

Ironically, is what we were just saying. But for me, yeah, it has to be Grosjeon out of those two. The man's got a lot of history. We all love him. Roe Groreau. What a man, the baguette for me, takes it. I absolutely love how you're giving reasons as to why it's Grosjean. And you have to get like to the fourth reason before you say something that is related to racing.

He's nice. He can Kirk. He cares about you. Oh yeah. Also, he's all right behind the wheel. I mean, tell you a lot about this podcast. Sure. No.

Good answer. Roman Grosjeon for you. Harry, who are you going for? It's Rojo. It's got to be Rojo. It can't be Giovanni. Simply, but whatever you think of Grojan now, and we've spoken about his performances on track as of late, he still had some stellar performances when he first joined F1.

Or when he joined F1 for the second time, maybe, I should say. You know, some memorable performances, as Sam pointed out, Spar 2015, probably his best one ever. and yeah, I don't, Giovannazzi hasn't shown anything to me that says he would be the better driver. So yeah, it's got to be Grogon. And also, he's a great cook. Also, he is a great cook. Yeah, Jovanazzi is going to improve, I think.

I think he will improve as he gets more experienced in F1. However, the answer to this is Roman Grojean, and it is a clean sweep for him. I think realistically, Javanazzi, maximum potential will not be higher than what Grojean's abilities, maybe not what they are now, but what they definitely were at one point. I think there is a ceiling for poor Antonio, and I just don't think that ceiling is high enough to Warren picking him here. Jevin actually just needs to show a bit more. Grosjean, of course, a experienced driver, someone who's been on the podium multiple times, even if it has been a while since the last.

time. So yeah, he's going to be my answer here. Romiji. Second question. And we're looking at two two-time world champions here. Fernando Alonso or Mika Hakenan. Two all-time greats, but you can only pick one. Harry, who are you going for? Alonzo, next. Yeah, I know they got the same amount of world championships and, you know, we all love Mika. But I think Mika is deserving of his two world championships. I think Alonso deserved more. And we've spoken at length about how his choices outside of the car

have perhaps influenced how many championships he's got. But yeah, no, it's got to be Alonso. I can't see. Either of you say Hacking, and I swear to God. Sam. Well, your choices here are alongside or in other terms. one of the best drivers of all time, or one of the most overrated two-time world champion. Oh, have a day off.

And I shock you all even more if I said that Alonkso was the one that was overrated, wouldn't I? Hackingan deserves one title. He got lucky with his second due to other events. Alokso, probably going to have had five, realistically, if other events have just slipped his way a little bit, and that tells you a lot about luck. I think Alonso is probably the top five drivers of all time, maybe top six. I don't think Hacking is close to the top 10. Yeah, I like Hackingan. Don't get me wrong, but he's never.

The only moment he ever wowed me was that overtake in Spa, again, obviously when they went three wide against Michael Schemacher. And that was a great drive. But for me, it couldn't be easier. Fernando Alonso is definitely the guy that I'm choosing over Mika Hacking. Quick question, Sam. Who from Finland hurt you? It's the ice, it's so cold.

That's it. Botas, Hakenen. You probably think, you know, Hakey cover iron is the worst Formula One driver of all time. I love baby face. But he has got a baby's face. That's not relevant to the point. Anyway, I'm not going to disrespect Big Meeker in the same way that you did. However, I am also going to go for Fernando Alonzo here.

To give Hackan credit, because I agree with what you say on 99, he did get fortunate that year. 98, he was absolutely brilliant. To give, you know, yeah, to give Hackan some credit, he beat Schumacher in his prime, and Alonzo didn't. I mean, Alonzo beat Schumacher, but he didn't beat him in his prime. So I would like to give Hacconan credit for that. However, Alonzo, his work at Ferrari for me is so stellar that. he takes this one. What he did to Felipe Massa and later Kimi Reichenin as well, he made two of the best drivers of

the 21st century, you know, a guy with a world championship, a guy who is arguably the closest to ever being a world champion who wasn't. He made them both look like amateurs. It was really ridiculous what Alonzo was able to do in those, I forget how many years it was now, about four years, wasn't it? So yeah, Alonzo takes it for me, but do respect my boy, Mika. Respect him. All right.

And the last one for today, we're going to be comparing a current driver and an X driver. So option one is Daniel Ricardo and option two, it's the return of Mr. Chunky himself. If you weren't watching the podcast a few weeks. weeks ago that might have flown over your head. One Pablo

Montoya is the other option. So Sam, who are you taking? They're two of the loveliest people in Formula One

and one of them is lovingly known as Mr Chunky. He's not known as Mr Chunky. You just

call him in my head. Oh, I've got the giggles. Mr. Chunky. I love him so much. I've got to choose Ricardo

I think, only just. No, no I don't. Matoia, Montoya in his prime, Mr. Chunky, the way he turned that McLaren round, it was struggling so much. I love him.

He's so good, isn't he? What a lovely, lovely man. And he's always being a Mick Chunky. He even got told he had to lose weight because he wasn't physically fit enough to drive the car. Ricardo could go on a world title, but I still think Montoya,

when he's at the top of his game, is just bloody brilliant. Although, Ricardo's breaking capabilities and the way he can chuck some moves together is phenomenal. So just so if one is aware, this one is bloody close. But it's simply loving me

because he is going as Mr Chunky that I have chosen him. Oh, great reason. Great reason. Harry, who's he got? I can't believe Mr. Chunky. I've got to go. No, I've got to go for Ricky Bobby here.

Montoya, in his day, on his day, sorry, was blindingly fast and pretty fearless. He put some manners on Schumacher back in his prime, even when he entered in his first year in 2001. But I don't think Montoya is or was as consistent as Ricardo is now. And I do think Ricardo got potential to be world champion.

I don't know whether Montoya did. He was so fast, but it was never consistent enough. So yeah, now I'm going to go Ricky Bilby on this one. Okay. It actually struck me on this one how close these two are in terms of their statistics. So they both have seven wins. Montoya has 30 podiums and Ricardo is 29. So they are very close in terms of statistics.

The only difference is that Montoya has had many more pole positions than Ricardo. It's 133 in that respect. Yeah, I really think this is a close one actually. In fairness to Montoya as well, looking at those statistics, he did that in about half the time that Ricardo did. I think Montoya... What you're smiling about now, Ricardo, hey? Yeah, yeah, Danny Rick.

Yeah. I mean, Daniel Ricardo is nearing 200 Grand Prix now, and I don't think Montoya hit 100, so yeah, Montoya managed to achieve the same amount in a much less time. Of course, you have to take into account that Ricardo spent time in that God-Orville-HRT, and that not much better Toro Rosso before getting into the Red Bulls.

So Montoya was straight into the Williams and then to McLaren, so he didn't really have much of a progression up F1. For me, there's one deciding factor, and that is that Ricardo beat Sebastian Vethel over a full season. And I don't think Montoya had that statement win that Ricardo has in his career. In terms of pure pace, I'm taking Montoya. In terms of that consistency that's already been referenced, I think Ricardo just about edges it.

Yeah, like I say, that win against Vettel in 2014 is a big, big one in Ricardo's CV. You know, that one looks good, the fact that he beat. Not only a four-time world champion, but a defending four-time world champion as well in his first season at the team. So, yeah, Ricardo gets my vote, but big love to big chunk. Sorry, lads, I've got a phone call coming. Hello? one Pablo oh yeah we'll go get

digging out after the podcast I know they've upset you it's fine don't worry about it yes I'll get a large sorry yeah sorry lads back on the podcast you're all right now

you all sort it out yeah fine yeah he'll be all right how's he doing he's just he's with Rubens they're a little bit emotional you know what

I really hope one Pablo Montoya gets the triple ground I imagine the scenes he's close he's only got Only got to win at Le Mans. I'd love it.

Anyway, maybe that's a discussion for another day. Who's first to the Triple Crown, Alonzo, or Juan Pablo? But we'll leave that, like I say, for another day. And we'll get out of here for this podcast. Sam, if you wouldn't mind getting us out of here. Well, folks, if you've enjoyed the quite interesting debate, moments of passion and discussions about Liska Chunky, then maybe consider sharing the podcast and leave this a review.

We always love to know what you think. Get over and follow us on our social. At El Breaking is our Twitter. That's where we have most of our content. And we'd love to see you there joining the conversation. Until next week, I've been Sandysake. I've been Ben Hocking. I've been Ricky Von Opel.

Ricky Von Opel. Lichtenstein's only F1 driver. Anyway, keep breaking late. Podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.