The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Do Red Bull have a CAR CRISIS?

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

The LB boys are here with your latest F1 fix, delving into Red Bull's recent car struggles and Perez's claims of car inequality. They also discuss the chances of Ferrari having another post-win form slump, and the approach Audi should take to complete their driver line-up. They finish by each naming their Top 5 drivers to have never won a Championship... FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Thank you for listening to the late-breaking. F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. Welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Harry Ead, Sam Sage, and me, Ben Hocking, on this non-race weekend Sunday, but we've still got plenty to talk about. Sam, you're all right? Well, we know that I'm not all right. I was a bit at a well last guy. Yes, I ate some food and that food, let's just say, we just didn't agree. We're saying an argument at 4 o'clock in the morning. but I've now joined my best friends for a better day. So, yeah, Harry, you all right?

I'm well, mate. I didn't eat any funny food. Why would it be funny? It wasn't making jokes, mate. Oh, well, okay. I didn't eat any disagreeable food. Thank you. Correct.

I'm well, and I'm very happy to be here, and I won't be on my phone ever. Come on, dude. Right, food reviews out of the way. We'll actually talk about some F1, because even though it's a non-race weekend, And Sunday we still have plenty to talk about. We're going to be doing a top five list later on in the show.

Stick around to find out what that is. Some thoughts on Audi and how it can't accept Salba's current performances. Ferrari, will they have a post-Monsa slump like they had a post-monico slump? Our thoughts on that a little bit later on in the show. But we're going to start with Red Bull because the season started very well for Red Bull, but it hasn't been going all their own way recently. Max Verstappen wasn't very happy at the Italian Grand Prix weekend. He was speaking to the official F1 website after,

and he said, it's really bad at the moment. Before Baku, we have a lot of work to do to basically change the whole car. Sam, that's never usually a good sign. It's just absolutely mind-blowing to me that they're at this point where the car is suddenly that bad that the whole thing needs to be changed. Like less than four months ago, you were winning. almost every race one, two at this point. At least Max Rastapel was having a good old time

running away some race victories. And yet now every single part, I know he's obviously over-exaggerating. And much like myself, I love a good over-exaggeration. But come on, mate. It was incredible four months ago. And now you're what? A few tents behind at most.

It surely does need to be a bit of a reverse on some upgrades that haven't gone to plan, have a little rethink about the direction you're going in. And maybe just accept, you know what, we've been caught at the end of a new development, cycle, which is going to end next year, do we want to put all of our focus into the likes of 2026 anyway, except we're a good run. We've got three titles out of this, doing how I want to move forward and crack on elsewhere?

Because I kind of think that there may be putting too many eggs into one basket, and Max Rastappen is potentially not looking at the bigger picture, which we know in the seasons, he does. He likes to race by race. He doesn't look at it like, I've mentioned previously how Prosk would look at it where the staff will go, if I get third every single Grand Prix with one second place, actually, I'm going to win the title anyway. He's like, nah, nah, mate, wings are all.

I'm done. If I don't win, I don't want to know. So I think that's how he's reviewing it. And he expects the car to be ready to go as soon as possible. Actually, I think if someone were to sit him down and go, you know what, Max, we ain't got the money now because of the cost cap. We ain't got the development time. We're going to prepare for 2026.

And the next 15 months is going to be a little bit rubbish. But boom, 2026, you're winning another two or three titles. To me, that seems like a good deal. but I'm just shocked. I'm shocked that they have fallen at such a pace from the very, very, so far from the top. Look how good they were last year. One person, one, who wasn't in that car, across the 20,

what was it, ending up being a 22 race calendar, 21 race calendar, which is absolutely mind-blowing in terms of statistics. And yet, now they could barely get into the top three steps. It's absolutely baffling how they've fallen. Harry, how do you fix a car that needs everything fixing? that's a very profound question I've seen a couple of comment and look I don't buy into the hype

that as soon as Adrian knew he said he was leaving Red Bull they've started being bad that's not true and it doesn't correlate whatsoever however he's not allowed to they've basically banned him from working on this car now he's not really doing much anyway he's sort of just sat in the corner twiddling his thumbs and they're trying to upgrade and develop

and understand a car that he designed and he's a genius but maybe he's like a mad genius and no one understands his work because he's just him I think that could All handwritten notes isn't it?

Yeah, Ben it could be like you write it like you've written all the notes and no one knows what he said If I die, this podcast is in trouble because my handover just you can't you won't be able to understand a word of it For the love of God put it all in a Google sheet

What is the podcast called? I can't find the game, it's written back like Tee-B The T-in-L I think so there could well be an element of that too. The rebel are trying to fix a car that their chief, you know, the chief designer of isn't allowed to do anything towards it anymore.

I'm with Sam, I don't buy the fact that, I know for Vestappen, this seems like a real fall in performance, and it is, it's quite a big chunk down, but as Sam says, he was winning not that long ago.

And I don't know, it just does feel like maybe they need to just rewind a bit on some upgrades they've brought along and see and see where that takes them because it's clear something's not working with how they've developed that car. They brought upgrades forward from like three races early or something, wasn't they brought them along. I would suggest either they've not worked or they've just not understood them yet

because they did bring them forward three races early. Yeah, it's not the end of the world. I don't think for Red Bull, I think it's just still, I think it's still fixable. I don't think it's an unfixable. terrible, terrible car. It's not because it was winning quite a lot and quite comfortably not very long ago.

So I would still would not count them out, Red Bull, because I think this could easily be fixable and turn it around. And even when the car isn't performing at his optimum, you still have Max Verstappen in your locker who, I think the last couple of wins he got were wins he maybe didn't deserve in terms of the car. and he pulled them out himself.

So yeah, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not disaster. I know it might seem like disaster stations for them, but I don't think it is. Yeah. Like you, Sam, I'm not overly concerned by Vestappen's comments specifically because if there's one thing F1 drivers like to be, it's hyperbolic. Like, then they will exaggerate. Not everything needs changing on the car. It's still slightly worrying, but the comments themselves,

I'm more looking at on track as to the concerns rather than Vastappen's comments off track and you have to remember everything is relative and everything you need to put into perspective so Vestappen is coming off one of the greatest runs by a driver and a team

in history like it's right up there if you look at Imala 2020 through to China of this year that's 46 races Vestappan won 37 of them like he went through such an historic run last season and 2022,

that anything in comparison to that is going to seem awful. And I guess to your point, Harry, about how in the middle of this season, Vestappen was making the difference in these races where it was closer. I feel like Vestappen just wants to get back to that. Obviously, he's not going to turn down if they turn up next weekend and they're as dominant as they were at the beginning of the year. But more realistically, if that team can get back to the point of you know, Spain where Vastappen won by two seconds, or Imola, where he won by just under one second,

or Canada is another good example where it felt like Vestappen made the difference that day. I think if Red Bull can just get back to that point, Vestappen will feel confident that if he's given an equal car or a very close to equal car, he'll back himself to be the guy that can deliver. He has got that buffer. So it's not like they need to get back to where they were. were at the beginning of this year, but that they do need to get far closer to McLaren than they were at Monza and at Zambor as well. I feel like maybe the most concerning part, and again, you have to take comments with a pinch of salt is, do they understand what the issue is? That's always the question, isn't it, when a team is struggling? Like, do they understand the issue?

Is it multiple issues or is it one issue that they just can't quite diagnose? They do keep experimenting with the floor on Perez and Vastappan's cars. It does feel like Baku, Singapore, these next two races, they really need to, I don't know, just get themselves to a position where they know where they're going for the rest of this season. Because if they're still lost by the end of Singapore, that would be worrying from my perspective. Before we move on, Harry, you made the point about Adrian Nui,

which I think is fair to bring up at this point, because obviously it was around, what, six months ago, just over now where he made the decision that he was going to leave Red Bull, about April time was Miami weekend. Right, yeah. So, yeah, April May time that it came out now. And I do wonder if we have just hit the point where he's future-proofing, because obviously these designers don't work to the same point that the drivers are out, right? He's not making upgrades for Miami as they're in Miami.

He'll be making upgrades for Singapore as we're in Miami. They need to work four or five months ahead to make sure the development cycle is in place. And I do wonder if we have over the last month, or so reached the point where they've gone, Adrian's magic has run out and now we need to make our own. And he sat there just looking at them in the corner of the room like, like a mad genius laughing at them. Yeah, now you see what I do for you.

It does feel like we have reached that kind of, the latency period is kicked in. And now we're back to kind of where Adrian Newe would have been working in the future, probably because he's just always there. Is that brilliant? It's probably always six months in the future anyway. He knows what's coming at all points. which is fantastic.

But I do think that actually it shows you just how powerful him and his team are. And if it is down to that, how much they might struggle moving forward. They might never recover the gap. And that might be where Max Verstappen is starting to get a little bit anxious, worried about what the journey moving forward looks like. Although Adrian Nui is not the only man that can make a fast car. No doubt there are members of that Red Bull team that would just desperately right now want to turn to Adrian Nui. just to say, can you have a look? We've all had a look.

We can't spot what's wrong. Would you mind taking a look for us? And they can't. They can't at the moment. On the other side of the garage, so Sergio Perez had some comments after the Italian Grand Prix. Obviously, both Red Bulls struggle

to compete with the top couple of teams. He said, I really feel like I'm in the same boat as I've been in the last 10 races, but now all of a sudden, Max has come to similar issues. So there's a little bit of confusion there, but it's clear in the data

where the problem is. Harry, do you buy that this is Vestappen coming back to the issues that Perez has always had, or is this Perez using this as an opportunity to prove himself? It's a good try, Sergio. My guy. I appreciate the effort on this one. He's spotted an opportunity, and he's gone for it, and I respect it. I respect the hustle. But come on.

That's not. Why would, if they were the same issues, Max Vistappen does. okay if they're the same issues that Perez has had the whole time and the Stappen's been driving around them why now would he not be able to drive around these issues and is having the same problem I don't the logic doesn't work

I don't buy it Sergio I'm sorry it's suddenly if Stappen hasn't been able to get around these issues it's not a thing so I respect the hustle as I say it was worth a go but I just don't believe you on that one son

before we turn to to Sam, I'd like everyone listening, to have a guess what you think Sam's opinion on this is. Pause it now and tweets us. If you're wrong, I will know it's your first episode. Sam, what do you think of this?

You know the phrase, grasping at straws? Does that apply here, do you think? I think so. It's like someone said, here, Sergio, try and grab these straws. And actually, they're saying that from Australia

while he's stood in Monsa, and there are no straws. They've just said there's some straw And he's there, please, give me the straw They don't exist, sir, okay The straws don't exist, you've made them up, they're in your mind It's like Shutter Island At the end of the movie, you're the one that was wrong,

There were no straws Sorry if that's a spoiler to anyone That's a direct spoiler of the movie Do you know what, mate, I'm not sure that's an actual Spoiler No, fine, watching it see So coded, I'm not sure they're going to work out that one out Leigh-O and Caprio with his straws

That's on the back of the box where you get on DVD. I think we've hit the maximum quotar of the word straws being said. Like, we can't do anymore. That's the last straw. Basically, Sergio, these issues that Max has been experiencing have been slowly increasing, but they kind of hit the forefront in Zhang Vort. The difference is at Zangvort, Max Sassapur was able to finish second place, my guy.

He was still only behind Lando Norris at that point. Monser exacerbated the issue. And very much so, because mind you. differences at Monsa can make for a very large difference come the end of the Grand Prix. It was very, very small gaps between the top six. It was only Red Bull that, of course, started to back up. What I think is very, very interesting is while Max Verstappo, I think still drove a really strong Grand Prix, he still beat George Russell, which I think Russell probably should have

got the Stapler with how well the cars maybe were performing differently. Soge was still a pit stop behind his teammate, almost at this point. And it tells you that actually while Max Verstaping, yes, he's starting to really struggle with how the car is developing and changing. So-J-Perez, the gap is still almost identical to it has been at every other Grand Prix. The car is getting worse, but the gap between them isn't getting closer. It just exacerbates the gap between these top eight drivers, the top four cars and the rest of the grid. P. Nguyen is so far away that someone like Red Bull can afford to have this fall off in pace,

where they are three, four, five-tenths, slower than the McLaren's, the Ferraris than the Mercedes at this point. And they are still so comfortably sat in seventh and eighth. when in that case it was sixth and eighth of course. So I think that while Sergio is desperately looking for any good PR, you know, under this brick, is it in the back of the car? You know, where can I find any? It's not there, mate, because it doesn't exist. You are manipulating a second circumstance

to try and make yourself look better, which again, as Harry said, I respect the hustle, my guy. I get it. But it ain't true. The stopping is still schooling your ass, and you need to make sure that you pick up those performances because you're still so far behind. If there is any chance anything good happens in a race moving

forward. The staff will be there to take advantage. Sergio might not still. If the car's going to be that slow, you still need to be within four or five seconds of your teammate, not not on a pit stop. Yeah, it doesn't quite line up, I'm afraid, Sergio. And that's based on,

if you want any evidence of that, it's just look at last year because what's happened to Sergio Perez this year is the same as last year. There's no difference. In both instances, he starts the year quite well, and then we come to the European season,

and Vastappen has a very comfortable lead on his teammate. It's exactly the same this year. And the problem is, I guess, with Vastappen, he still somewhat made it work, even when the car hasn't been brilliant. Perez was, as he was last season, often getting knocked out either in Q1, Q2, or only just scraping it through to Q3,

to the point where we very rarely could make an accurate race-paced comparison because he was essentially, putting himself out of the running on Saturday. So I don't really think there's much truth. Again, fair play, you might as well give it a go. But I don't think there's a lot of truth in what he's saying here. Right, we'll take our first break on this episode.

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Welcome back, everyone. Before we move on to Ferrari, a quick, show announcement. Harry, how many tickets have we got left? There's not three. There's not two. No. There's not even one.

None. We got, we got no tickets. No, no. That is not a reference. No, we're correct, and we have no tickets remaining. That's for the number. We have sold out for our Austin live show. Thank you to everyone who's bought tickets.

We are incredibly excited to see you on the Thursday before that Grand Prix. Obviously, the second straight year that we've come to Austin, the second straight year, we've had a sellout show. So we are massively appreciative of all of you that plan to come along. We will let you know if any tickets become available, of course. But for now, at least, completely sold out. Thank you very much indeed. Barrari now, let's move on to them, because Charlerler had some comments

after the Italian Grand Prix, a Grand Prix, which went pretty well for Charlotte, Clair, you'd have to say all in all, he won the thing. But he is being a little bit cautious and understandably so. He said, we shouldn't rely on the race we have just done. As a team, it's really important for us that once we come back at the factory tomorrow, we reset from everything that has happened during the weekend.

We learn from it, and we try to analyze everything, but we should leave emotions aside and reset as a team and go again in Baku. Monza is a very specific track. we've been very strong this weekend, but Baku will be maybe be very different and Singapore again very different, so we've got to reset.

Harry, we've seen LeClau win two races this year, one at the slowest track on the calendar, one of the fastest track on the calendar. We saw quite a slump post Monaco. How do we not see a slump post Monza? It's going to happen because they've only, I'm telling you now, they've only done upgrades for Monza and Monaco,

and that's it. They've got two specific cars for the year, the Monaco Ferrari and the Monza Ferrari. And this is where they are. And then a bust that they use for everything else. I don't know. I don't know how they ensure because I don't have any faith based on what I've seen so far this year.

Monza is less specific and special than Monaco. So that should give them some hope. And Baku got a long straight on it. Got a big old straight. Yeah, so it's quite high speed still. I know it's a street circuit, so different, but high speed and heavy braking zones, which is actually very similar to Monza.

Ferrari might still fancy their chances here, you know, coming up to Baku. So that will give them some hope. Singapore, I guess, is another street circuit, but kind of very different to Monaco, so they may be good there, they may be not. But Singapore's like a weird anomaly on the calendar

where even the most dominant car is terrible there, as we saw last year with Red Bull and I've seen before with Mercedes. It's like all rules go out the window at Singapore for some weird reason. So yeah, they can fancy their chances, but honestly, I've got no faith. I've got zero faith in them being able to convert this into anything competitive for the next race. But to be honest, that kind of speaks to how this year has gone, because we've seen such a variation in form between teams in between each different race, which is excellent to watch, because we come to a race weekend,

We even get past qualifying where you're like, well, we know the order now. And then Charles LeClaire wins Monza, which, to be honest, only any of us saw happening, well, apart from Zam. Apart from Zam. But yeah, so that's great to watch. I just think it's hard to predict who's going to, who's going to be strong there. I'd say Ferrari tend to be good around Baku, LeClaar, especially. He loves a, loves a quality lap around there.

When he's not feeling very stupid, of course. when he's not feeling stupid. But, you know, he's got a few poles, a few poles in Baku before. So they'll fancy their chances, but honestly, I've got little, little faith in them.

What do you think so? Yeah, I'm on that plane with Harry, flying towards the destination of Little Faith because... Thank you. It does feel like a tool order for Ferrari. And there is a difference between their winning Monaco

and their winning Monza. In Monaco, it feels like they were purpose built to dominate that racetrack. It felt like they turned up, they knew their objective, the car knew what it needed to do, the clerk knew what he needed to do, and they delivered. It was a really momentous victory,

great for him, great for the team, and it all went so smoothly, right? Everything worked as it needed to, and he was unstoppable. Unlike Monsa, where I think they were ever fastest. I don't think in qualifying,

they ever really were close to coming to pole position. In the race, they never really had the fastest car, and I actually think it was, I can't be saying this, groundbreaking strategy that was applied to ensure that Charler-Clau was actually involved in the race win at the end of the Grand Prix.

And if it was a couple of laps longer, I don't think he's winning anyway. I really do think it is cutting your teeth on nothing kind of stuff to make sure that you won that Grand Prix. So what worries me leaving Monser is unlike in Monaco, where they had the car to dominate and maybe they could lean on these characteristics

that make sure they were better than their competitors. I don't think they have that here. I do think they're slower than the McLaren's skill. I do think that the Red Bulls will probably bounce back as again, straight line, ultimate straight line speed clearly wasn't their strength here. I think they're going to improve in the like, especially in Singapore, I think.

I do think this is worrying for Ferrari. And I'm surprised that LeClaura has come out and said, we need to make sure we don't have another slump. My guy, you weren't high up to have a slump back down. You're still trying to climb. I'm really quite shocked that he's come out and said this and not just, hey, we've still got a long way to go. The brilliant strategy puts in a great place to win,

but there's a lot of development to happen. Maclaren and still the top dogs. That would have felt more sensible to me. I'm surprised he's gone down this level. The car is definitely nowhere near being the best. It's a good car. It's not a great car. Do you think Ferrari have anyone from Azerbaijan in their team

so they can claim it as a home race? Is that how they're doing it now? See any way they win, right? Well, Azerbaijan is in Europe. as we all know. So it counts as a home race, right? Cheers, Bernie. Thank you, Bernie.

She's geography. I know it's a joke, but being called Bernie is a bit triggering. Bernie. Bernie Echolstein is not a comparison anyone ever wants. I think he's right to be cautious. I think he is absolutely right to be cautious. It's completely valid because we have had these two races where Ferrari have been very good

and they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. and Monaco was maybe a bit misleading. There's a chance Monza is misleading as well. I am glad that LeCler has gone with this strategy out of Monza rather than his original strategy around Monaco time, which was we're going to have upgrades and they're going to be the best that have ever been seen and we're going to win the title by a million points.

I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but they were quite confident at that time. And I think they are being a bit more measured here. let's not forget that obviously if you take Monza out the equation and you look at the two races before that, I think we're all agreed. Charler-Claire did a sensational job at both Spa and Zamvort. Zamvort, he was still 25 seconds off the lead.

Spar, he was still eight seconds off the lead. And that's not down to his performance. That's just there were better cars out there than the Ferrari on those days. So if we get back to that, then yes, he's right to be cautious. I am intrigued to see how the upgrades work at Baku, because, as you say, there is a very long straight at Baku, but it's not a be-all and endal at Baku. You still do need a balanced car to get you through that middle sector.

So I'm intrigued to see how that works. Sam, is either championship in play at the moment, do you think? I think the drivers have come and gone. I think the fact that we're all discussing how Piastri is technically still, you know, in the championship hunt is unlikely to ever really get there unless I think someone did the maths on one of our YouTube videos, that if the Stauffin were to finish seventh every single race and Piashi were to win every single race

and Norris doesn't come second for some of the races, then he will win it by like four points or something like that. I'm like, yeah, okay, cool. So realistically, not happening. So Lecler and a car that isn't the fastest car right now and hasn't shown dominance really at a single racetrack other than Monaco, which we know they sold their soul to achieve. I just can't see Lecler taking the driver's title,

which is a shame because he's having a banger of a season. But constructors, on the other hand, that is weirdly not out the window yet. I think that is actually achievable. If these upgrades work, if Sykes just, who's having it, again, a good season, could just close up to the clare a little bit, and they can maybe pick up a couple of, I know, one-threes, two-threes, two-fours more regularly. And they start out-scoring, one of the McLaren's quite regularly.

They're comfortably beating Perez already. I don't think it's impossible for them to close that gap. It's only a few races, and you can pick up so many points, each draw. pre with both drivers come to me inside that top five, it's not, it's not impossible. We've seen bigger gaps closed

in Formula 1 before than this, what, 60 year point gap that's sitting there between Ferrari and between Red Bull right now. What do you think, Harry,

either championship's still available for Ferrari? Constructors, yes, potentially, but yeah, I'm going to say I'm a driver. Drivers would have to be some real divine intervention.

He is God Declure. He is, to be fair, he could call on the big man upstairs. He is the big man. Oh, right, sorry, yeah, of course. Get the peck in order, sort of like, no one's higher than Lecler. God, Lecler, underneath God.

Actual God. Yeah, good. I'm glad we're going to have that works. Sorry to all faith. I don't think we've ever done an apology for all faith. I mean, it's good to cover them all bases. Yeah, cover all bases, man. Do tell you all you.

Apologies. I'm offended any of you. Sorry. But, yeah, I think the drivers is probably out of the question. But, constructors, if they, they can continue to be like they were a Munza. Not out the question. I think McLaren are their main issue on that one

because they're very consistent at the moment. Red Bull they might be able to have, but they've got a job trying to beat McLaren at the same time. So Constructors is their most realistic option, but it's going to be a tough ask. Yeah, it will. And I think Baku, by the end of Singapore,

again, this doubleheader feels important for Ferrari because if coming out of Singapore, their upgrades have performed slightly better than expected and maybe one of the other two teams have had a DNF, then suddenly it might be game on. But equally, we might know by the end of Singapore that actually it's not going to happen for them this year. You know, Signs and LeClaire, despite the fact that we, you know, give LeClaire a lot of credit and rightly so, signs is still there. Signs is still picking up the pieces.

He's still coming home with solid results. so he needs to keep that up. And if this Vestappan versus Norris, maybe versus Piastri storyline, keeps unfolding and there is a driver's championship fight, Ferrari could be the team best position to take advantage of that. Like if they start taking unnecessary points away from one another and we do have Norris and Vestappen go side by side like they did in Austria and we're seeing incidents maybe similar to what we had with Vostappen and Hamilton in 2021, then some of the same. normally Ferrari coming home with third and fourth place finishes or second and third place finishes,

they might be well positioned. So I think that's what Ferrari need to be, Ferrari need to be a word that they don't really understand. Ferrari need to be perfect, right? Ferrari just need to be the team that gets the strategy calls right. They capitalize on errors from other teams and they're the ones picking up the pieces from others not doing their jobs. If they can play that role perfectly, then maybe it's on. Drivers, you're right, probably not. It's because even though LeClaire has been exceptional, I think the last three or four races,

if we look at the last four races, he's still not secured the most points in that timeframe. He scored more than Vestappen. He scored 19 more than Vastappen in the last four races, but that's not enough. And that's not even including the McLaren guys. He's three points behind Norris in the last four races, and he's six points behind Piastri.

So realistically, it would need to be, again, the upgrades would have to be so much better than even Monsa showed that they were for that to become even close to being a reality. Realistically, they need to leave Singapore being the top scoring team, right? That three to be going the right way. They've got to outscore everyone in those two races combined. I would agree with that. Let's take our second break on this episode. On the other side, we're going to be chatting through Audi. At Desjardin, we speak business. We speak startup funding and comprehensive game plans. We've mastered made-to-measure growth and expansion advice, and we can talk your ear-off about transferring your business when the time comes.

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restrictions apply. See Golden Nuggett Casino.com for details. Please play responsibly. Welcome back, everyone. We've now got a topic on Audi, and what is currently Salba, that green toaster. Matea Bonoso started work at Salba slash Audi in August. I think he attended his first race at the Italian Grand Prix. He had some comments about the team and I guess the future team. We cannot afford it when he's talking about current performances.

This is the team that has to become in the future a winning team and the only way to do that is to start moving up, progressing. We need to train our muscles for the future. So yes, I think we certainly need to improve. That's important for ourselves. That's important for the team. It's important for the brand for our partners. And we cannot accept the current position.

Sam, a lot is made of 2026 and onwards when it comes to this future Audi team. And realistically, they're not going to be bringing home any silverware this season or next season. But what do you make of Bonotto's comments that they at least need to show improvement in that time frame so that they're ready when 2026 rolls around. Well, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I 100% agree with Matea Bonotto. I think he's exactly right. And I imagine that's partially why he's been given the role, is his ambition, again, bizarre, and the way he is trying to carve a route forward for them to be wholly successful.

You've got to remember his background. He is being, inging around successful teams of drivers for Nye on 25 years at this point. He is seeing the very highs of Formula One. He does know what it takes, despite his failings in the later Ferrari years he had, of course, when they were up against Mercedes and the like. But that Audi, you know, well, why is to become Audi, the Saabert team, if the F1 World Titles, they're starting down the Mariana Trench. You know, they are so far gone.

They need to get above sea level first before they can start being competitive. So you don't want to hand off this partnership to an absolute Goliath that is Audi in terms of car manufacturing, sporting ambition, money. technological improvement, you've all sprung dirt technique. You know, they've got it all. They're in a blur song. They've got everything. That's just about to say, all right, blur.

So they can't be starting this far down. And he's so right to sit there and go, the work can't start in 2026, or we hope we turn up with a car that's decent. They need to get the foundations in place where team members have got practice. The drills are well-oiled. And, you know, pit stops aren't going to be a problem.

And actually, they're competitive, at least the midfield runners. They cannot be walking around, or it feels like walking with air pace, a good second slower than the rest of their compisks at this point with only, what, 15 months ago before how he entered this sport. It's not a good omen. There's too much work to do if this is how it is at the end of next season. He is right.

They need to get their elbows out, start getting to work and making some changes because I'm not expecting them to start scoring points, but even be fighting with the likes of where Williams are now, where R.B. are now. At least you're kind of finishing on the other occasion. 11th, 12th, 13th. You're there if there's a bad day for. someone else, there might be a point available.

Not, oh, Bossass was good, wasn't he? Until half and through the race, and then you pit in, and now he was 19th. That can't happen constantly. So, Benoso is 100% correct. They need to see changes before Audi become the actual name on that team. Do you understand Bonotto's point here, Harry? I do, because they cannot have a toaster until Aldi turn up. They need to at least upgrade to a grill.

Not legal, actually. Maybe an oven, at least. Someone will do a bit more cooking. good analogy but yeah they cannot I know Audi I know Audi already

there in the background but not also been brought on board but they cannot they cannot just turn up as Audi after two years of being a terrible salba kick steak bake because it's going to be a disaster they have to at least be starting to move up the grid

and it's not even like they need to be you know I'm not even saying to be like point scorers. They need to just be at least in it because they're not even anywhere near it at the moment. They're terrible. And it's quite a shocking decline. Because since Alpha,

Alpha Amaya were never bringing any technical expertise to Salba. They were just a sticker on that car. So it's quite shocking how badly this year has gone. Because I don't think they've lost anything in terms of performance or money or resource, only from a sponsorship point of view. So yeah, this has been, this year's been bad. They need 2025 to be an improvement. And maybe it is because they are just counting everything into 2026, which is fair.

It's a good idea. But they are truly sacrificing everything at that point, which is going to have an adverse effect. Even from just like a, you know, motivational point of view for everyone the words in the team, like two years or a year or so being absolutely terrible. it's going to it's going to people might leave etc so you can't afford to be doing that they need to be aiming towards aiming towards some sort of improvement next year to then hit 2026 running properly but yeah I think it's a sensible comment from mature um as we said before he he has his failings as a team principal are well known but he's he's not an idiot he's actually a very clever man and has worked for

ferrari winning multiple championships so I know he's not team principal he's more CEO type role which this will suit him better. But he's 100% right on this occasion. Yeah, three for three. Benotto, you are 100% correct. People might be expecting something of a magical turnaround in 2026. It very rarely happens that way. Even if we look at some instances where you think a team has suddenly popped up

overnight to be this juggernaut in the sport, it's very rarely that it has been overnight. Like if you look at McLaren now, Like, they have progressed a lot. But even they were third in 2020. They won a race in 2021. Like, there were the foundations being built. If you look at Mercedes when they dominated the start of the hybrid era,

2013 was a fairly encouraging year for them in the last year, like last year of that set of regulations. Like they, they had three race wins that year. And they had eight pole positions. I think they were the second best qualifying team after Red Bull that year. So again, that didn't quite pop up overnight. And then the one that probably people will go straight to is Braun because they were like ninth or something in 2008, and then they won it in 2009.

But even that was very specifically one innovative technological like upheaval, right? Like they managed to, I don't want to say they got lucky because it was skill what they did, but they had to get one thing absolutely right to turn that around. And I don't think the same thing will, happen with Audi. They do need to at least, whether it's via people, whether it's via processes, you talk about pit stops and getting those better. All of these things can be worked on now so they can hit the ground running in 2026. And you're right, 2024 has been

nothing short of an embarrassment for this team so far because it's one thing being pointless and if they stay pointless, it would be their first year without scoring since 2014. But to do bit in a cost cap era, that's like even worse, right? That's more of an embarrassment where everyone is not quite on an even playing field, but it's certainly closer than it used to be. And to your point, Harry, when Alpha Romeo were there, it's not like they had a groundbreaking couple of years, right? But they did at least hit double figures in terms of points in five of the last six seasons. So it is still quite a downgrade on where they were. Remember the first year of Alfa Romeo when it was Reichen and a

Germanazzi. Of course, Reichen is apparently going back to the team now, if you believe, the Italian robbery. They had like 55 points or something that year. It was encouraging enough. So, yeah, they do need to improve before Audi get in. But Otto also had some comments on

the lineup, because whilst we know Holkenberg is going there next year, we still don't know what's happening with the other seat. He said, it's definitely something that we need to judge, are we going for experience or something else? This is a project which is looking to a long-term objective. So the question is, what's the best for us now to the final goal? Is it having short-term experience and then moving to something different? We need to decide. And today, I think we're not

in the position to answer. He went through a couple of those on the short list. He said, Teo, Teo Boucher, is our reserve driver today. Depending on the explode. He can see him. so somehow he's already part of the family and no doubt that he's on our list Gabriel, Gabriel Bortoletto, who's currently in F2, who's doing very well today in F2. I think he has shown to be a great talent and certainly we are looking to what he's doing as we are looking to many others. I don't see these are the only names on which we are focusing our attention.

There are many names in the list with great potential, great expertise, great experience. Sam, you for experience, which direction do they go? has he forgotten that they already have half a driver line up that covers the experience does he know does you know Holkenberg exists hello Hulk make yourself go mate

yeah the guy's got a lot of races under his belt quite a few teams field in a lot been around for at least what 12 years now 11 12 years been a while experience is the first thing you tick off

with Holkenberg really at this point done big green tick I like that as well because they're agreeing. So, yeah, I don't know. Don't know why you keep saying this whole, do we have, you know, you first experience thing. You've got that.

If you want double experience, I get it. You have another guy on your team already who is very experienced, multiple race wings, multiple propositions, works alongside statistically the greatest Jeffon driver of all time, worked for the greatest team statistically of all time, you know,

that guy ticks a lot of boxes in Valtry Botas as well. So you currently have experience wrapped up a lovely little experiential package that sits there on your desk. You have that cupboard. You've got that right now. Bottas, you just have another one year deal. He'll hate it, but he'll take it. Now is the time to nurture and build a driver

that could become your Kimi Antingelli, your Landon Norris, Drosca Pi Astrid, your Lewis Hamilton of old now. You know, now is the birth of what could be this new sporting empire within Formula One. If you're going to give someone time to be a rookie, to develop, to grow into the sport, make mistakes where realistically, it don't bloody matter.

Who cares if poor shares crashed six times in that kick Salba at the back of the grid next year? But actually, when he is finishing, he's right there up alongside Holkenberg every single race. That's great. That's a great start to his career. He's pushing forward. Don't do that your first year as Audi when you think, right, we've got through the moss that is, but the mould of green that is back there as Salba.

We're out of that. We're clean now. We've bang. The dirt is gone. We're Audi and we're here to perform. Barry, Scott. Hello. Barry, you're a big.

That's a performance on the show. He's a ear driver. I didn't know that. Well, he's got experience in that field as well. He cleans the dirt away. Nonetheless, I just think they are silly to not do a classic. What harsh struggle to achieve for so many years? Don't make the same mistake.

You can have both at the same time and they have the option to do so. I think a poor share Holkenberg line up for next year would be, it's quite tasty. I wouldn't even call that a big tasting because... I like a big tasty. It's back as well at the moment. Is it?

I'll go to McDonald's later. Maybe in a couple of weeks' time when we meet out, we'll go get one. You'll treat for the team. Not for you, Kerski, you're vegetarian. Anyway, I just think about it. You've got both availabilities. Hulkenberg exists.

Think about it. Why have you banned our producer from McDonald's? They have vegetarian things there. Oh, she can have it. It's not a tasty. It's so. clap is it out of a half. No.

No, I control your morals. Did you read the contract? Oh, this is dismissal level. Right. So, Porchere and Holkenberg might be a good line. That's an interesting point of view. Harry, what have you got to say? Yeah, we were given some good compliments to Mateaubon Otto just now,

and I'd like to just say... Resin them all? No. I'm not rescinding them, because they'd obtain that, compliment. Just going to compliment that with this is a stupid thing to say, Mitya.

Very good. Duality of man. He is the duality of man. I am also clever and stupid of the same time. It also worries me that he is really, whose Mitya's really good mate?

Mate, so joke, is this a real thing. No, an actual serious question. We've seen him together. The drive. I put you to play on his words.

No, the Kimster. No, not Kimster. No, he's all about watching house. Gunter Stangha? Gunter Steiner, yeah.

Oh, okay. Sam's already mentioned Haas and their inability to have experience and youth at the same time. Do you think Mateer's been talking to Gunther? In an Italian countryside, in a Fiat five hundred. Yeah, going, what should I do? And Gunther's like, well, you could only have experience and experience or youth and youth. That's the way it was. Like, oh, okay, yeah.

Oh, okay, that makes sense. And out of the rules. Yeah, a little bit worrying the struggling with this concept. As you say, Sam, they caught big old experience already signed. up. Nico's like, I am, I'm here next year,

guys. I am old. I'm old and I'm here. I, like you say, I can see them signing Bottas for a one year deal. Which he will get like PTSD from,

I'm sure. But poor guy. Poor guy. But it, it might be worth, it might be worth keeping there for the next year just to evaluate where they want to keep it. keeping for

the thing is, if they're keeping for one more year, I don't think they keep them for Audi. So for Botaz, it's almost like, do I just want one more

year in F1? I don't know. I think the sense of fortune is to, as you say, put in a younger or a rookie driver because you're going to give them a year to learn their trade. Teo Pochere has been,

I'm sure, will make a point, has been sat on the sidelines. I don't know, I'm on the fence. As I was a result. as a reserve young driver for about 20 years now. He actually isn't young anymore.

He's been sat there so long. He's not me now. But they have that, they have that ready to go. And they could put him in a car for next year. And I'm not saying he could be terrible because it just gives him a chance to evaluate whether he would be the right choice

to move into the 2026 Audi era with with Holkenberg. But next year would seem like a prime opportunity to give that a little test. Give them a little well because as we've already spoken about, yeah, they need to improve, but they're not going to improve to like anything meaningful next year. It's more of a more of a testing year for them. So that would make sense. Having a line up with experience and youth, it's good.

Actually a good thing. Look at Mercedes. I know George Russell isn't the oldest guy on the grid, but he's got experience and they're putting youth next to him. yeah Ben's making hand gestures there because it works I think this yeah stop questioning it experience and youth at the same time please I wouldn't be mad if they put Bottas in for another year

but I think the sensible option is to put a younger driver in next to Hulgenberg okay okay buckle up folks hold on I'm just going to get into my bunker I'm going to explode all I want you to do Matea is to get out a piece of paper and we'll do this together all right We'll do the first one together, then you'll be your right to do it yourself afterwards.

So we're going to write down, we're going to put two boxes, okay? We're going to do one empty box there, one empty box there. And we're going to put experience next to one of the boxes. I'm going to put youth next to the other box. Now, I can tell you for a fact, you've got Nika Holkenberg for next year. That's a done deal. Nika Holkenberg has 219 race starts. If you were going to put together a grid of the most experienced drivers of all time,

he'd be on it. He has the 16th most starts of all time. So I think the guy who when he debuted, Kimi Antonelli was three years old, I think you've got the experience box ticked. That's gross. Mattia, you ready? We're going to go and tick

that box, okay? Does he go what a tick looks like? I really hope so. So we've got one driver sorted. We've got the other driver sorted. So remember, we've ticked one box. That box is the experience box. which means there's one box left to be ticked. That's the youth box.

Tick it. He's going to put another tick in the other box. There's space for another one in here. Fuck it, a little one. Go with a youth option, man. It's so harsh for Bottas as well, because he's had such a good season. But if you've got no intention of keeping him for 2026,

why keep him for 2025? There is a good reason that 2020, is quickly becoming the year of the rookie, right? We've got Bayerman who's going to essentially be a rookie next year. We've got Antonelli that will be. We've got Jack Duhn. All of these teams are putting in rookie drivers for 2025. They're not all stupid.

Alpine, you know, tried to prove otherwise, but they're not all stupid. They've all got a clear idea of if we give a rookie a chance in 2025, they'll be ready to go if we've got a good car ready to go in 2026. You should do the same thing. First of all, thank you, Matea Bonotto, for being the first person in Salba history to acknowledge that Teo Poiririr actually exists. But now he's already part of the family.

Yeah, he is. And give him the goddamn seat. Like, he's an F2 champion. Porchere was asked about this and he, what more could you have done, Teo? I don't know, mate, was basically his answer. Dude, what a F2 tie. and he's just sat there and he's been invisible

for like two years. Give him the seat. Do you think Mattiel walked into the factory and then Tatea was just like in the corner he was like who's that? And everyone goes,

what? Have you been there? That's the janitor, right? People are sitting on his lap accidentally. Oh, didn't see you there. Sorry, mate. Go around and hang out birthday cake

missing him entirely. That meme when they sat stood at the corner and they don't know when left two driver. I don't go home. I'm a F2 champion. No, we don't. Yeah, I've made all my points about Porsche

before. Only Russell and Leclera of won an F2 title when they've been as young as Porsche. Give him the seat. He's pretty good. Is it because he sounds too much like Porsche, which is...

An Audi like, no. We can't do that. We can't put Porsche in the car. Porsche, I mean, at this point, I've got no better answer to that. What do you mean? We'll put our rival in the car. God, no.

We'll see how that goes. well done to Botas who got the sea I'm sure he does deserve it hang on he does he does he deserves a C I just like if it is a straight up fight

between Bottas and Porsche for Audi's future I just think Porsche makes more sense yes you are correct but I feel so sorry for BOTS so sorry for him doesn't matter

because when Sebastian Vessel comes back in 2026 are all gone you all drive both cars there's another thing about that this week right Matea sorry if 20206

ends up being Vettlin Reichen, the motto at the helm. I swear to God, man. The Golden Years. We've recreated it, boys. We're so back. They just changed the name to like Forari or something. We're not copying, we swear.

Fowdy. Fowdy. Fowdy. What? All right. We're going to take our final break on this episode. On the other side, we've got a top five list coming up. Whether it's a pair of running shoes,

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your most valuable resources onto one powerful platform so you can add value even faster. Workday, moving business forever forward. Welcome back, everyone's close out today's show. We're going to be doing a top five list. We'll each give our selections five down to one and we'd love to hear your opinions as to whether you agree with us or disagree with us on this topic. Today's topic is the top five drivers that have not won a title and we're just going to use drivers from this century. So anything from 2000 onwards. We'll go round with our number five picks first of all and we'll make our way down to number one. So number five, Sam, who's on your list? Who's made it? I've gone for big Rubens Barakello and number five,

the man who likes a cry. And I do love old Rubens. It's just how can you be number two to so many close, you know, near misses for yourself? You go up against the Michael and then you go up against Jensen, of course, in the brawl.

He was so near to so many titles. And you know what? Rubens, I think, is a bit underrated at just how good a racing driver he is. If he were to go up against many other standard drivers in that Ferrari period, and again, in that brawl, if it could have been almost so many others,

I do think he have walked away with that leagues two, if not three titles under his belt. I guess there's a little part of me that I feel sorry that because he comes up against arguably the greatest driver of all time in Michael Schumacher, he has this constant reputation of being a, yeah, I'm just the number two guy that happened to bring the car around because we had a good car. I just don't think that rings true.

He was very, very good a lot of the time. So, yeah, I think Barrichello has a rightful place on this century's men who don't have a title that maybe should have. I feel like as well with Barrichello, obviously we're looking more at the Ferrari years. How good he was at Stewart in the late 90s is really undervalued.

I'm not allowed to include that in my argument. Oh yeah, I know. I'm just, I think he was phenomenal at that point. Number five for you, Harry. Copy and based. Ruben's Barakallo. In another life, in a different alternate universe, he's got at least one championship under his belt.

Because, as you say, a Ferrari, he obviously had true. could go up against and even if he was faster he wasn't allowed to beat him and then and then he was a nearly a nearly miss at brawn and had that had those honda years been better i know obviously the brawn year was good um had the honda car been better when he made that switch out of uh away from ferrari yeah who knows what could have those oh seven and o eight hondas were good uh i think barrakello could have could have been i know button would have been there too but we saw how close it was in 09 with between two of them.

So yeah, Barichello, very, very close. And as you say, he flies under the radar quite a lot because he's just sort of dismissed as the number two. But he was a very good, very good driver. I very nearly had Barakallo on my list. But I gave the nod to old Valtry Bottas who we've just spoken about. I think he somewhat suffered from post-Rosburgh expectations because I think now with hindsight, we can see he did a pretty good job against Lewis Hamilton.

Like he came within 100 points of winning the world title twice, which I think is fairly good going. Obviously, we know what he did at Williams as well, where he beat Felipe Massa three years in a row. And his qualifying pace versus Hamilton was always pretty solid. Like he outqualified Hamilton between five and eight times a season in every season that they were teammates, which, again, you'd take that.

I know a lot of teams would take that. So, yeah, I think Bortas is a little bit underappreciated for what he did at Mercedes. Number four, Sam. Yeah, I'm really, I haven't made my mind up fully on my. I've got the drivers, but where they sit, it's so close together. So forgive me, if you sit there and go, how dare you put this driver number four? It's that close for me. I've got Daniel Ricardo in at number four at the moment.

And you might think albeit a recency bias, maybe. Or maybe you think, obviously, a recentcy bias. you're new to Formula One, you think, hang on a minute, Dania Ricardo, is that old guy that drives around in a fake RB? What are you doing there? Well, once upon a time, that guy looked like he could be the big thing. Turns up, of course, in a car that is so bad that no one even remembers what he was doing with it. And then finally gets moved to the junior program of Red Bull,

and his first year at the senior team beat Sebastian battle. And not just beats him. Sebastian, mate, there's a puzzle on the floor. We ain't got a mop. Let me flip you over and use it to. mop up the rubbish, mate, because, you know, that's what I've got with you. I'm mopping the floors with you, Sebastian four-time world champion battle. Yeah, but he was, Vessel was just having a bit of, you know,

he's trying everything to the car, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm tired. I'm tired. I'm tired of those. Hello, mate. The guy's got eight victories, and on his day, good Lord, he is unbeatable. I think Ricardo might end up being, and it could be the same with a couple of other drivers on

on people's list and my list moving forward that we, haven't finished the careers of just yet. This could be a case of right driver, wrong time every time. I think he may, is made bad choices. I think he's come up against maybe the 0.1% that end up being better than him in Max Verstappen. Again, in an alternate universe, Daniel Riccardo is still leading the Red Bull line up and never saw his slumping form, never ended up having to recover other teams that weren't as

good. And I think if they're in that car together, Daniel and Max, in the 2021 fight against Lewis Hamilton and Bottas, I think they could win both titles handedly at that point. So, yeah, Ricardo sits fourth on my list.

I do think he's so close, so close to being a great in the sport. Copy and paste. I've got Ricardo fourth as well for much of the same reason so I won't repeat them. But yeah, he was against Vastappen, the stats, are very close.

And they were teammates for nearly three complete seasons. And I think Vostappen had like 18 more points in those three years, which spread out across that many Grand Prix is not a lot. Vestappen took five wins when they were teammates together. Ricardo took four again, very close. And Ricardo had three poles. Vastappen never did in their time together as teammates. So what is often forgotten is how good he was at Renault as well.

I will stand by how good he was. two podiums there? Yeah, and he was against Holkenberg and Ockon in those two years as well. So absolutely, they weren't slouch teammates. Like he had 173 points in those two years. Holkenberg and Ockon across the two years didn't get to 100. They had 99. So he was very good there as well.

And I think people will look at the McLaren and obviously the minority years and say, how on earth can you have him that high? But for a good sort of six, seven years, Ricardo was very, very good, which I appreciate people will ignore. I'm saying this because I hate Ricardo with every fibre of my bin. Harry, number four. I've gone for Mr. Chunky, Juan Pablo Montoya. Again, suffers in the fact that he went up against Schumacher in those early noughties.

And obviously, I know they weren't all dominant, but Schumacher, the Ferrari days were pretty dominant for him. so I think again alternate universe there's maybe a championship there 2005 if he hadn't hurt himself playing tennis gosh you pause there and you explain why you pause there you just forget the sport I just was trying to remember how he hurt himself and it was playing tennis tennis a very common injury caused him to cause him to miss the first few races of the season I know the 05 mcclain wasn't reliable anyway but who knows he could have been in that fight too. He was, I mean, Ben, you are obviously a big 90s cart fan.

Mr. Chunky, Paul Pablo Motoyer, was an absolute demon sometimes. And put some, even in those noughties, early noughties, he put some manners or Schumacher when he was in the Ferrari that made me cry as a child. So that in itself deserves, makes him deserve a place on the list. he he was wickedly fast and hot-headed yes but he just entered f1 i mean it's first year he almost won like the second race of the year or something like Brazil isn't it and he gets taken out by some someone's dad um max for stappen's dad takes him out and and rumors what could have been

a pretty pretty memorable uh first win so he yeah he was he was very fast back in the day i know he lost interest in F1 and 06 and went off to do NASCAR or something instead. But there was, you know, 01, 02, 03, it's actually forgotten how close he came to the championship. It was him and Reichen him, but... It was a decider.

Yeah, it was the last race of the season, so he took it out to the wire. So, yeah, a bit unlucky in that sense and again, had he been in... I would have been so... I know he wasn't going to last because Hounselm was coming in 07 anyway. I'd have been intrigued to see where, if he'd stayed in F1,

where he would have gone, what he would have done after him. leaving McLaren, because he was leaving McLaren at the end of O6 anyway, but yeah, I wonder where he would have gone next. But anyway, it's for another time. He'd have been winning a championship and a super agourri, I reckon. He was that good. He was that good.

And that leads quite nicely onto my number three driver, which is one Pablo Montoya. Yes, Guy was very quick. Michael Schumack, like you said, Michael Schumack had a lot of rivals in his career. David Coulthard, if you were maybe creating a top 20. you'd include him in there. David Hill, Shatvillner, Reikinen, Alonzo,

Hackner. There's a lot of rivals. I'm not sure anyone scared Michael Schumacher the same way that Montoya did. And I know it wasn't every race and it was only, you know, once in a little while, but when Montoya was on form,

I think he was like right up there. So like you say, he only comes into F1 when I think he was 20, five years old. So he had quite a late start at least into F1. But yeah, when he was on his game, there were very few that could match him.

I would encourage anyone to go and watch, go on YouTube, the 2004 San Marino GP, mainly for the start, and then try and find the preceding press conference because Schumacher absolutely has Montoya on the grass. And then in the press conference, it's like,

yeah, I didn't see him. And then Montoya's like, oh yeah, yeah, he definitely didn't seem like proper sarcastic. And it's that sort of thing like, yeah, they just, it riled Schumann. Montoya could rile Schumacher probably in a way that others didn't. Rial Skate, I think that's probably a fair, fair analysis.

Sam, who have you got a number three? Well, I don't want to be boring, but Mr. Chanky, he's a number three. I keep it simple, seven wings, 30 podiums, 13 poles, 2003 was a deeming year, one at Monaco, angry, scared Michael Schumacher, which was, we've said, really quite difficult to do. So I love him.

Rightfully sits on the list. Number three for you, Harry. I've sought to do all through and four. I've put Ricardo at number three. But again, I could probably put him the other way around. He, again, kind of right, as you said, Sam, right driver, maybe slightly wrong. I think Ricardo comes into the sport as in as he was,

maybe like three years earlier and has that sort of progression when he's not up against, who he then ended up up against. I think it could be a different story for him. Say he's in one of the red, he's in the red ball in 2012 or 2013 or even 2011. I just wonder what could have been because Mark Weber,

blessed him never really, apart from 2010, never really posed much of a challenge to Sebastian in those days. And I do wonder what could have happened. And this is Ricardo's fault. I'm not saying he would have been ready in 2011 because he was in a HRT and he was a young driver of just saying in a different life.

Yeah, I do wonder. And as you say, Ben, his his performances against Vastappen, I think, go under the radar. And if you look how we know how good Vastappen is now, Ricardo certainly kept him honest and even beat him at some statistics. So, yeah, Ricardo very much back in the day, but not now. But yeah, Ricardo's number three. Number two, Sam. This is definitely one I struggled with. I felt like my previous three were all really, really close

and kind of earned their place where they are. But I've got Lando at number two. And I think I think I could definitely be entirely wrong for thinking this. But he has held his own for the moment he's walked into this sport. He has gone up against some really tough individuals, most notably Carlos Sank. Of course, now Oscar Piascriy, who we don't know how good he might be.

And it might sound out to be actually in 10 years' time, we look back at this and go, Cricy, Oscar Piascries is a four-time world champion and I'm then Norris really went swinging with that guy and was fantastic. But you know, two wings to his name now. A couple of pole positions as well. Constantly outshines the car, constantly.

That almost moment in spa a couple of years ago where the Williams obviously ending up being of George Russell on the front row where he puts it into the war in the rain. The moment in Russia as well where he makes the wrong tire choice. And he's just an almost, almost driver. And I know he's not had a shot at a title. And we might be doing this slightly too soon in terms of when I put it on my top five.

But I think this year is going to be one of many that is a almost hopefully he converts moment for Landon Norris. So I'm not going to delve too much into it. But I think he's a special chap when it comes to how much ability he's got. I just hope he can actually convert on that special ability and make himself a bit of a legend. Harry, who's number two on your list?

I've put Robert Kubitsa Oh, that's a spicy shout I like that Bobby K And again, this is looking more At his pre-2011 For not when he came up for Williams in 2019 Honestly, I think Kubitsa could have won Multiple championships

Mario Tyson has so much to answer for for canceling the direction of the 08 BMW for the 091 You moron because I think that I think when he wins in Canada that year he's leading the championship I think there might be are they leading both championships

by that point? I don't know but Kubits is might be that it's close Kubits is certainly leading the driver's championship in 2008 which we all know Hamilton won that was Hamilton versus Massa in the end but to think by Canada Kubits is in that title fight

is bonkers at that point yeah it's bonkers so I think he could have won that one I think if BMW don't pull out at the end of O'9 who knows what happens there because he would have had to scramble for a drive at Renault.

I think he ends up at Ferrari at some point. It's an entirely... And obviously then he has his terrible accident. It's an entirely different trajectory. But honestly, I think he... I think you ask like the likes of Hamilton and Vetterlincoe and they... He was the man.

Kibitsa was the man. But just sort of went under the radar a bit because he never really... Only picked up that one win and it never really happened for him. So I think Kibbibis was the man. it probably won't be recognized by by many just because of his 2019 his 2019 performances but you know we can't really blame him too much on that uh to be honest and fairytale ending he did win a race for Ferrari the other day in whack excellent he's so good anyway bless him um but yeah

honestly i think kubitsa because it could be multiple world champion uh in those late naughty's early teens and it just never happened quick question about kubitsa because you focused on like two 2008 and what really should have happened in 2009, potentially massive controversial opinion. 2010. Was he the best driver on the grid in 2010? That's a valid, valid point.

That Renault was not good, and he made it look amazing. Yeah. Like most, there was some rate, like Spa and Monaco that year, he should not have been anywhere near Red Bulls and Ferraris and McLarence and co. And he was just dragging it.

There's a great, there's some great, it's probably on YouTube, but great onboard in Singapore. to pit and then overtake to get to back where he started it if he had a puncher or something but he just absolutely minces through the field yeah it's a good show i think what always sadden me about cubitsa which you spoke about if he you know if he doesn't leave f1 because i was accident the trajectory of his career is so difficult to see where he does pick up a title you know

like Ferrari would he would he even at his top ability being a red ball an alonzo couldn't so yeah it's a difficult one because i don't do put them on a pretty, you know, as much as as Key Bits and never turned it into titles, I will say on raw ability, they're pretty similar. After that point, he proves stays Ferrari. I can't see him going to Mercedes, unless maybe

they don't pick up Lewis Hamilton instead, which feels unlikely. Maybe they don't pick up Rosberg. It was already there, I don't know, but yeah, it just feels convoluted. It's a shame because it's a great shout, and someone actually, I think, I overlooked, but it's a good shout. Number two on my list, I've gone

for Felipe Massa, and I was unsure on where to put Felipe Massa because he is, without a doubt, like the closest driver to ever win a world championship that will appear on this list. And it depends on how much you look at Massa pre-injury and post-injury. And I think I've sort of come round on this on the last couple of years because I used to be, I don't know, I think I used to undervalue Massa a little bit because of the way he was obliterated by Alonzo and obviously Bott has beaten quite comfortably at Williams. realistically was he ever the same driver again after Hungary in 2009? And I'm not sure he was. Because before that, he was very competitive. He was closer to beating Schumacher than Barakle was,

which I think he deserves a bit of credit for. He was, you know, 07 and 08, obviously he gets very close in 08. 07, he should have been or maybe could have been in the fight with Reichenen, but he wasn't that far off at the same time. he got more pole positions than than Reichen and did in their time together and he beats Reichen and quite handly in 2008 so

again it very much depends on how you split up Mass's career but I I'm choosing to look at what happened pre-injury and he was very good pre-injury which leads us nicely on to our number one driver

not to win a title this century Harry Ead who've got firstly honourable shout out to to David Kulthard because he's not named the top five he's putting number six but agreed

he is the driver with or after before studying Moss he has the most wins of that title so big shout out to DC just not going on top five I've put Charlotte Claire that's my number one because he

we joke about God LeCler but that boy has some God's given talent in a race car and we said it many times free LeCler, but it's being squandered by the terribleness of Ferrari sometimes. Monser and Monica this year aside.

Again, Lecler, I know that he has, he, you know, he's made some mistakes himself, but to be honest, I think it's only because he's trying to make up for the faults of the team he's driving for. I think the Clare in a better car in 22 wins the title. Obviously, 2023, he wasn't anywhere near, but that was not his fault. Car was terrible.

And again this year, I think he's having one of, if not one of his best years ever. He just doesn't have the car. It's the car all the time to show it. When he does have the card to show it, Monza, Monaco, you can't see him for dust. But he's just not getting that opportunity all the time. So it's obviously not over yet as a Claxon. It's another reference of the Claxons. Two in two.

We're bringing them back. Hey, they never left. but... Thanks, Daniel. But yeah, it's still time for Leclair. But currently as the stands, I think he's number one because there's a special... In the same way that Vestappen is a...

Once in a generational talent, I think we've got two on our hands with Vastappan and Leclair, and it's an absolute travesty that he's not in a title fight currently. Sam, who's number one on your list? I think it just shows how good he is because Charles LeClaire is number one on my list.

and the names we've run through already in this, you know, you think of the likes of Massa who missed out by one race. David Cautard, he wasn't on any of our, well, he might be on Ben's list, but, you know, he's not on any of our, okay. Good. He statistically should be on the list because he is so, so good. You know, Daniel Ricardo, who has been historically brilliant. I put Landau Norris in there.

Well, I'm probably on Toy, but LeCler for two of us currently sits at the top. And he is arguably never, ever had the best car. at any point. There's been some close calls, but never had the best car at any point. And his statistics are incredible. In 141 entries, the King has picked up 38 podiums.

That's like one podium in every four Grand Prix. I think in that car, because soon of that I remember, he did a season in Salba, that's pretty special. Pole positions, he's at 25 poles. That's under one in six races he gets pole position. But it tells you that the car isn't there

because he's only one seven. And I'm terrified that because he spends his whole car, career at Ferrari, who haven't seen success for 17 years now, he might just slowly rot away in a place where he's not able to materialise his absolute brilliance that he has. He is a sensational talent. He is generational, and he has come up against some of the most ridiculously talented people coming through the ranks in the likes of Max Staplet, of course. But George Russell, Landon Norris as well, Oscar Pianastri is hot on his heels.

There's so many brilliant drivers right now in this golden era of young drivers. and with a name like Charles Mark Hervey Percival LeCler you can't sit at the very top of the list Percival I forgot about that He's amazing He deserves me number one I will

Before I give David Cuthub My number one spot I will quickly say Carlos Sines wasn't far off being number five on my list I think given the standard of teammate He's come across since you know to enter the sport

he's done a very good job, but he didn't quite make my list. All aboard the LeClebe, Banwagon, here we go. Yeah, he's number one for me as well. I'll quick fire his career, but he had a great year one at Salba. It's actually underrated how good he was

in that first year at Salba. 2019, beat Sebastian Vettel, gets seven poles that season. Vettel only gets two. 2020, that Ferrari is a pile of poo. He scores 98 points. Vettel scores 33. 2021.

You know, that's the only year, 2021 that he was beaten by a teammate in Carlos Sines. It was very close. 2022 and 23, obviously, he kicks on again. Pole positions, he has 25 pole positions. His teammates combined have seven. Like, that's pretty good going. And if you want his overall qualifying record against teammates,

he's outqualified teammates 96 times, and teammates have outqualified him 44 times. that's again a very good record given battle signs he's had good teammates so yeah lecler is top for me as well statistically heiking over line and rolling in his formula one grave right now must be gutting got to be included yeah i mean yano truly was very close as well but understandably there we go so sam you had lecler followed by norris then montoya ricardo and barrakello harry had leclair then cubitzer then ricardo Montoya Barrichello and Ide-Cleur, Massa, Montoya, Ricardo, Bottas. Lovely.

I would like to know from everyone listening, who had the best list and what would your list look like? And I'll do it for this episode, I reckon. Sam, got anything else to say? No, but thank you for listening to the podcast that nearly won titles of best podcast. I'm sure that'll be us in 20 years' time when people run through it. It just feels that way, doesn't it? Late part. We just feel like a Barrichello, more than a Michael Schumacher. cry a lot. Thanks for listening, folks.

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