The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Does Max Verstappen make his teammates look bad? | Episode 139

Episode Date: August 12, 2021

It's STILL the summer break - but don't worry we're here to keep you entertained. In this week's podcast, the boys ask whether Verstappen makes his teammates look worse than they actually are, discuss Carlos Sainz' season so far and play F1: Higher or Lower.JOIN our Discord: https://discord.gg/dQJdu2SbAmTWEET us @LBrakingSUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Lake Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to look out for new episodes every Thursday and Grand Prix Sundays. Hello and a very warm welcome to the Lake Breaking F1 podcast, presented as ever by Harry Ead, Sam Sage and myself Ben Hocking. The summer break marches on. but we're still here.

There's still F1 chat to be had. You can't stop us. And we've got plenty to discuss today. Obviously, all of the F1 drivers at the moment jetting out to the most exotic parts of the world. Sam, how is South London? I mean, yeah, it's good. Harry's over there in Slough or Reddit, Reddit, Redding.

In the place, full of annoying krettings, us being some of them. It's a good start to the podcast where I can. can't even name a location in the UK. I would quite like to be at one of those glamorous locations. I'm not, as you said, I live in central South London. But yeah, summer breaks fine. We're getting closer to the races.

I am having minor breakdowns on a day-by-day basis until I can see cars go around and cracking a circle again over 60 times. Please bring it back sooner. But we're getting there. We're getting there. How are you boys holding up? I don't even know where I am now. So, Slang Reading.

Did you know before? South London. Yeah, the Hungarian GP for about three years ago already, doesn't it? Which is sad. But yeah, I'm coping. It will be back before we know it, which it can't come soon enough.

I couldn't agree more. We do have some very interesting topics to discuss, nonetheless, even without there being any actual racing on track. But first of all, just to quickly say that depending on when you're listening to this, but likely about a week after you're listening to this, we're actually going to be in the same place at the same time for only the second time this year. And the first time since October, where it will just be the three of us.

So very exciting. Let us know what you'd like us to do, F1 related. Just the three of us. We talk F1 if we try, just the three of us. Well, there's another jungle. Yeah, that's beautiful. If you just want us to make F1 related songs all weekend and then upload that, then feel free to suggest it. But on a more serious note, please do let us know.

If you'd like us to record a special podcast episode or anything along those lines, let us know. We might well go ahead with your idea. And just the obligatory shout out as well before we get going, the Discord channel that we have available. We've got about 65 people in there discussing F1 at the moment, which is fantastic, some really interesting discussions. So the link will be in the description. Harry, a few people said that it didn't work last week, so I'm going to presume you're being an idiot. Not again.

Do you mind sorting that out? I've sorted it out. I've sorted it out. Classic, Harry. This is why I don't know whether he lives in Slough or Reading. Not to turn on listeners, but maybe you're clicking it wrong. Just saying, wow. Just like the customer is never wrong.

The listener is never wrong, Hans. Harry, come on. But yeah, the link will be there. Try it. If it doesn't work, just shout at Harry. It's easy as that. But we're going to get on with some proper F1 chat. We're going to be discussing Carlos Sines, who at the summer break is leading Charle-Laclerc, albeit by a slender margin. We'll be discussing whether he can kick on and actually win that by the end of the year. Sebastian Vettel, 11 races into his Aston Martin career. We're going to be discussing whether he has fulfilled expectations, whether he's exceeded expectations at his new team, or whether he is falling. behind and we're going to play a game of F1 higher or lower later on, Sam versus Harry, in that one. But first of all, we're going to be discussing Max Vastappen. So Max Vestappen not leading the championship going into the summer break,

although he is still well within a shot of winning his first driver's championship. But we're going to go away from the discussion of Hamilton versus Vastappen. We're going to look at Vestappen versus the teammates that he's had over the last few years and how he's done a pretty good job against them. So, Sam, I'll pose this question to you. Do we at this point have to sit back and say, Vastappen is just absolutely utterly brilliant? Or do you think Red Bull, as a team, have a real issue

in being able to support Vastappen with the second driver that he needs? I think it is, and with all of these F1 topics, it's never just one sole issue. But I think you can look at it as almost like an arc of development. If you were to start where Vestappan and Ricardo became team-making, together. And that is kind of essentially the first test that the Staffing ever really had at Red Bull, of course, was going up against Ricardo. We look at Ricardo with a lot of fondness on this channel. We really admire his talent. We think that he is one of the top class of the field. And you'll notice how, of course,

the whole time that they were there, they were very, very equal. And I think that's part of the reason is because Verstaffa at that point hadn't one perfecting his driving styling Formula One, and two, didn't have total control over the development of the Red Bull car. And therefore, the Red Bull team, Helmut Marco hadn't sent himself on Max Verstaffi. Christian Horner had become the number one Verstappen fanboy, supporting his driver every single turn. And Ricardo was equally as important to the team. So therefore, I think their efforts were split.

Of course, Ricardo realizes that over time, Vastafing is getting slightly more preferential treatment, the car is being angled towards him. And Ricardo maybe sees that Red Bull aren't building a car that can win him a championship, which is, Ricardo has come out and said, that's what he wants. That is what he's aiming for.

Of course, cue the likes of Ghazli and Albon coming into the team. At this point, they're the newcomers, They're the people that, you know, are new to the environment and new to the car. And the staff is 100% the lead driver at this point. He's in charge of where it's going. And his efforts to be fair are improving. His results are improving. He becomes a real threat to the championship, to races, to race swings on a regular basis.

And I think at that point, engineers and a design team have gone, Max, how do you like the car to be built? How do you want to drive the car? And I think they've designed the car to his driving style, which I think is completely fair, right? He's the number one driver. He's the one that's going to win the world title. It makes a lot of sense to do it that way. Has that alienated to drivers along the way? Yeah, I think it definitely is possible.

I think it has, and I think Ricardo is actually, ironically, a victim of something similar at McLaren now that Landon Norris has been the lead driving, has been developing that car over a few years into his own driving style. So Max Stauffin is exceptionally good. I think him and Lewis Hamilton are so far clear of the rest of the group

when it comes to outright talent at the moment that even if the car was equal at this point and developed entirely 50-50 between both Max and whatever teammate he has. at the time, I still think Max would blow them all out the water. But over years of development, learning the team, becoming intrinsically linked to the culture of the team and how the team works, I think that is massively boosting Max Verstaffel's chances of having a car under his disposal that works exactly how he wants it. So it's 50% Max is one of the best drivers we've seen

on the grid for a very, very long time, other than Lewis Hamilton essentially. And secondly, the time at Red Bull has just allowed him to amalgamate so brilliantly that that car is his. and his alone. And I've got no issues with that. I think that's what a world champion would end up doing. So, yeah, that's probably the reason I would give as to why Max's teammates, although very good drivers, having ever been able to stand the test of time against the Dutchman. What'd you reckon on this one, Harry? Yeah, I mean, it would be so interesting to, obviously we can't turn about time, but to see how it would have gone had Ricardo stuck around at the end of 2018.

And if he was still in that team, as Sam said, he saw the writing on the wall in terms of the way the team were going around Vostappen. You know, they had that crash in Baku, and it was kind of blamed solely on Ricardo, where, you know, you could argue both were at fault. And I think he saw, saw which direction things were going. But, yeah, I would be so interesting because, as you said, Sam, he was, Ricardo and Vestappen were pretty equal. And yes, Vestappen was still early in his career, maybe slightly more reckless. but I think that it still would have been pretty tight even now because we know how good Ricardo is when he's on form last year being an example.

So yeah, and since then they've, the teammates they brought in, I think this is, again, it's a policy problem with Red Bull, which he obviously talked about a lot, but the teammates they brought in against Vestappen are so young and inexperienced. I know Vestappen is still fairly young and inexperienced, not that much anymore, but they're so young and inexperienced. They can't match him

and then obviously they get rid of them too soon. And yeah, I think it would be tough for any team that's coming to beat him. You could argue that Perez has done a almost not solid, but he's got close on occasions this year where Albon and Gassley didn't and perhaps he's the closest

that's been since Riccardo. But yeah, I think they would find it really difficult to bring in a driver now and I think it would be interesting if Perez stayed on next year and had involvement in that car development because like said Sam, Max is fully ingrained in that team now the car is based around what he's asking for so yeah, 2020 could be interesting if they do keep Perez

and allow him to have direction around the development of the car but yeah, I'd find it really tough to see. You can only see, you know, Alonzo maybe Hamilton definitely anyone else on the grid coming in charler-clair potentially who could challenge Vastappan in that Red Bull team in another team I think it's a different question but in Red Bull

there aren't many other drivers on the grid I think that could topple him so you know we speak of Ferrari having a number one driver and they're often accused of that but I think Red Bull are serial offenders in this department they've had a number one driver

for a fair few years if you look at Vastappen and the Vettel days yeah so it's an interesting one. Yeah, it is. It is a really interesting one. And I remember we've not necessarily had this exact discussion before, but we have had very similar discussions in the past. And we, I recall back to last year when we had a very similar discussion to this. And I remember this was either when Perez had been confirmed or he was very close to being confirmed. He was at least heavily rumoured to get that second Red Bull seat. And I remember saying at the time that Perez would

decide the narrative on this. How Perez does versus Vastappen would alter what my opinion on this would be. So I said that if Perez comes in and he challenges Vestappen to a similar degree that Ricardo used to when they were teammates, then that puts more emphasis on Gassley and Albin, not being able to do the job. Because if Perez can come in, if Ricardo can come in, they can both do a job very similar to Max Vastappen, then it doesn't reflect well. on those two drivers and you can kind of draw a line under the sand there you don't need to really discuss much more

however I said that if Perez struggles to a similar degree to what we've seen with Gassley and Albin and in fairness I think it's much closer to that reality than the first reality so if that was the case if Perez did struggle versus Vestappan I said that the narrative would actually be

that Vastappen is just It's just brilliant. Because if Perez can't match him, we know how good Perez is. He's been around for a long time. He's done very well against other teammates, other teammates, other very reputable teammates such as Nico Holkenberg. So if Perez can't do the job and two of their own drivers that they brought up can't do the job, then maybe we just have to sit back and say,

you know what, Vestappen's great. And the number of drivers that can match him is incredibly limited. Maybe that's the case. I think it's important to bear in mind that Perez, hasn't had the number of races I would like to see yet in terms of the consistency that he could show. He has had only 11 races in that car, although you have to bear in mind that Gassley pretty much had exactly the same number of races that Perez has already had at the team. And Albin didn't have much more than that. I know he had a season and a half,

but that full season was a cut one due to COVID. So it's difficult. You know, Perez has had had an okay amount of time to get used to it and it's just not happening for him yet but i do want to see how this second half of the season goes before being absolutely definitive on this but i i am starting to lean towards the fact that you just have to look at vestappen and say what an incredible talent he is there's not much you can do there's not much you can do to stop that one thing i found incredibly damning in terms of Perez's performance relative to vestappen and i'm not going to take claim for this stat myself. This came from race fans. Through the first 11 races of this season, the only times that Perez has been ahead of Vestappen in a race has been where Perez

has yet to pit. Every other occasion where they're both running on track, neither of DNF'd, Vestappen has been in the lead. So the only time of Perez has been in the lead is where he's not pit. So And I'm not saying Red Bull necessarily need someone who is beating Vastappen 100% of the time. I'm not even saying they need someone who can beat Vestappen 20% of the time. But not having done it at all in 11 races, it's a bit concerning. And yeah, we had a couple of breakout races from Perez not too long ago, but he needs to kick on from that now. Yeah, and like I say, at this point, maybe you just have to sit back and say,

we know that Vastappen's brilliant. maybe he's even more brilliant than what we thought he was. Maybe Perez needs more time to adjust though. I'm willing to give him that time. Brilliant times two, is that what we're saying there? Pretty much. Good. Yeah.

Or even times three sometimes. He's a good driver. I don't give out those compliments easily as well. You know, brilliant times two. I mean, in terms of their championship effort, we're seeing that Bottas is, is not performing too well versus Lewis Hamilton. That might be a bit of an understatement.

And I didn't want to get a Bottas jab into this podcast at all. We haven't got him on the discussion list, but the conversation has gone there. Sam, do you think that Bottas not performing as well as he has done in previous seasons is actually masking an issue that Red Bull have got? Because at the moment, Perez's relative poor performances versus Vastappen is not necessarily being punished by Mercedes. So do you think the issue is being masked at all?

It could be. It could be. I mean, we've seen this throughout time at Red Bull. Red Bull have a chronic teammate problem. It's not like Perez is the only person that's turned up at Red Bull and got matched to Stappen. Red Bull need to look at their driver lineups. They need to look at the history of their drivers

and they need to look at how the culture is around their teams and go, wow, hang on a minute. It's not like, this has suddenly changed this season. like over the last 12 months we've had a son and shifting things. Albonne immediately struggled. Gazley immediately struggled. Ricardo started to struggle.

I mean, you now look at what Gasly's able to do in a team that values him, that is building him up, that supports him on your regular basis. And he has a great relationship with Yuki-Signoder as well. The king is flying high. He's doing really, really, really, really well.

And Bottas, you know, Maseg's culture with Bottas is so different. Mercedes wants Bottas to do one thing, as long as they're at the top of each table, Nosegis don't really mind what's going on. They don't mind if Botas has not won a race all season because if it means that Mercedes then gone to win the driver's championship because of Bottas's results, that satisfies Masegis.

Only one driving is to win the driver's title. Actually, I can't believe I might be this person. I'm going to defend Bottas here. His season really hasn't been too bad. If you look at every single race that he had, I know right, shocked faces, folks, you can't see it, but they are shocked. If you look at the race, is that Botas has won, run, not one, sorry, over the course of this season, there's only

been one race that Bottas has actually finished in where he hasn't been on the podium. Now, of course, there are certain reasons why things have happened and Hungary, for example, was entirely his own fault. Of course, you need to take these kind of things into account. You also need to take into account his pace off of his seven-time champion's teammate Lewis Hamilton and whatnot, look at distances. But if you're just going to look solely at results, Bottas's results when he has finished a race have not been awful. Perez is adjusting to a new team.

Perez needs time. And I think actually, if you were to look at how Rebel of treating its teammates previously, I think they're doing a good job in not criticizing Perez and giving the time that he needs to build up. I think people are quite harshly jumping to the same conclusions that they dig for Gassley and they dig for Albon.

Perez does need to do more, but we all need to have a little bit more time and awareness for these second Red Bull drivers. Not everyone is Maxwell Staff and not everyone is Lewis Hamilton. And they need to do what point. Botas has done the last few years, and that is get the championship across the line for the team while the other driver goes on and wins the title. Perez was doing that for a lot of the season. Only recently has that not happened. What's your thoughts on this, Harry? Appreciate it's

actually deviated a little bit away from the original question here, but do you think that Mercedes are being, sorry, Red Bull are being let off the hook slightly by Bottas not being at the peak we've seen from him in the likes of 2017 and 2019? I mean, yeah, I think it's undoubtedly so. If Bottas were performing at a better level and Perez at the same level that he is now, and we know that level of Paris is up and down. It's not as good sometimes, and sometimes it's not good at all. Yeah, you know, Mercedes score at more points would hurt more.

Would hurt more, you know. And Baku is a good example where Hamilton made that very uncharacteristic mistake, allowed rebel, i.e. Paris, to get the win. And Bottas was nowhere to be seen. And it's those kind of days that could hurt, could hurt Mercedes further down the line. So, yeah, it remains to be seen. If Mercedes still won the Constructor Championships,

construct the Championship, we might forget this. And say Bottas still did a good enough job as a second driver, but it's entirely possible that rebel are being less off the hook slightly. Yeah. Yeah, I think realistically, I've said this before. I think I said this on the previous podcast.

I think this 2021 version of Botas is possibly the worst version of Botas we've seen at Mercedes. And I think if we saw the same botas that, you know, I picked that 2017 and 2019, they're two pretty good years from him. I think if he was at that standard, I think Mercedes would be more comfortably ahead in the championship and the Constructors Championship and Red Bull would be looking at themselves now, kicking themselves, saying if we had built up a second driver,

rather than have to ship one in last minute because we can't build the previous two guys who tried to be in the role, I think they would be kicking themselves. I think they'd be saying, you know, if only we'd played this differently, if only we'd done the same thing that Mercedes did with, Valtry Bottas would be in with a chance. But as it happens, I think Bottas not being at his full potential is helping it,

keeping it fairly close. But be interested to see what happens in the second half of the year on that. Let's move on to... Hold on, Ben. I would argue here. Bloody, I'm wondering how old you're all right. Oh, every older. Valtry Bottas has got one more point to make here.

And I would argue for Valtry that he is entirely the reason why Versailles are leading the Constructors' Championship. Not necessarily by the standing means, of course. He did decide that he would rather go bowling than racing. But Valtry Bottas is doing everything in his power to make sure that Mercedes went into that summer break and they are leading. After you said the nice thing about him, I was going to ask, is this a situation where someone off camera has a gun to your head and you're trying to get across the fact that you're in danger without outwardly saying it? But then that's just ruined it.

So, basically, don't worry. going on. Don't worry. Although if I ever do come back and say that Bottas will win a race, then you know that I am in trouble. Well, you'll have to say it after he does win a race. Please, Valtrey.

It won't happen. Russia is coming. Russia is coming. Right. Sam, am I okay to move on? Yeah, sorry. Valtry's gone to Russia to practice more. Thank you. Thank you, sir, Sam. Ferrari.

Carlos Sines and Charles LeClerc. So Carlos Sines coming into a new team against a Charle-Claire that beat Sebastian Vettel the last two years in their intra-team battle. And at the summer break, it's close, but Carlos Sines is ahead, of course, helped by the fact that he eventually finished on the podium at Hungary.

Charles L'Aclare retired from that race. It gives Carlos Sines just a three-point lead in their battle, one of the closest ones, of course, on the grid. I mean, Sam, first of all, are you surprised that Sines is leading at this stage? and do you think he can hold it for about the rest of the year? Am I surprised that Science is leading? It's a 50-50 question.

I'm surprised in that he's leading in his first half of a year at the new team, especially that new team being Ferrari, which is famously difficult to get used to. The environment is incredibly different to any other F-1 team, and Science has gone from one extreme culture in McLaren, which is incredibly upbeat and full of camaraderie and has Norris next to him now, to Ferrari, which is full of that historic culture,

that kind of old-school reputation, that we must deliver these results. And he's settled in that team better than anyone else has settled in their new teams across the rest of the year. So I'm surprised that he's leading in that sense. But am I surprised he's leading if you were to look at his ability?

No, I don't think the disparity between Charlotte Clare and Carlos Seitz is as big as a lot of people like to make it out to be. Carlos Seitz, I think, is one of the most underrated young talents in Formula One at the moment. And I think that Red Bull

made a massive mistake by not promoting. promoting Carlos Sykes alongside Max Verstappen, or even giving him some kind of a chance earlier on in the driving career of that guy, because, you know, the guy's a regular race winner coming up, the guy, I think he's far away at it, they're acting with something to have to Charler LeClaire.

Let's say he gets pinched by someone. Let's say he doesn't fancy it one day and wants to become an ice cream man on the coast of Scarborough and decides that, you know what, that's what I'm going to do instead. You never know. You might become a chocolate of Claire at your local patissary. Honestly, Charlecler is very much a great driver But Carlos Seint is definitely no slouch

I am really not shocked that he's up there fighting I'm surprised he's doing it so soon Is there a chance that he can carry it on for the rest of the season? Again, it's 50-50 Charlecler is a.klae is a. God LeCleur for a reason The man really does know how to drive his socks off and that Ferrari car is suiting him very well Look at Silverstone for example

The man capitalised on a really, really difficult and crazy race and made the most of it. I think Syntz hasn't got that just yet in the Ferrari. I think it will come to him. I think that those two will be much closer next season rather than the end of this season. I think LeCler will just get it.

But I don't think it's going to be a huge gap. I don't think Carlos Seitz should look at himself and be at all disappointed coming in the end of the season if LeCleur does finish ahead of him. Harry, what do you reckon? Three points in it. Do you think Signs has the potential to see this through? Do you think Charlotte Clerk can get it back?

he has the potential to see it through definitely I'm in agreement with what Sam said there I think ability-wise it's that much of a shock that signs could be on a par with Leclair we all know how good Leclair it is slightly shocking that it's maybe quite so soon and we mentioned in last week's podcast I think have all the drivers who have moved to a different team

he's the one who's got up to speed the quickest which is, you know, no mean fear, I don't think. But, yeah, I think he definitely has the ability to see it through to the rest of the year. I guess there are some instances where you'd say, you know, LeClaire was pretty unlucky in Hungary. You lost out on a chunk of points there where signs getting quite a few, getting P3. Monaco, again, you could argue that, although LeClaire put it in the wall himself. So that's his own fault. so yeah there's potential to say that

Leclair would still be in front in the points without those two DNFs or DNS even for the Monaco but yeah I don't think it's too much of a shock that Signs is up there with Leclair we've seen in the past couple of years at McLaren how well he's performed I think his only Duff period is really when he was at Renault and maybe

you, yeah, I don't know why it was tough for Renault, but maybe it's just the environment he was in. And apart from then, he's flourished and every team he's been in. So, yeah, I don't know why we shouldn't be surprised, I don't think. But, yeah, as I mentioned, I think the speed at which he's got up to speed is very impressive. So I'm happy to accept that with all of the takes that we have on these podcasts, occasionally we'll be right about things,

occasionally we won't be right about things. And I think if we look back to the preseason predictions, we did. There are two standout ones for from my side what I gave. One was very right. One was very wrong. So the one that I was very right about and I'm going to keep singing about it is how well Lando Norris is doing because he, I said he'd have a breakout year and he has to this point. I'll let you have that one then. Yes. But then I am also very happy to accept I am wrong on things as well. And the thing I was most wrong about in my preseason predictions is that Carlos Signs would not be able to compete with Shaula Claire because he absolutely has and he's done far better

than what I thought he would do. So fair play to him. I think through this first half of the year, you've already mentioned that Carlos Seines got up to speed the fastest of any new driver. I completely agree. I would go one step further though. I would say he was the fastest to get used to his team and it wasn't even close if you compare it to the other drivers. He was my, I know Alonzo and maybe Vettel are getting there now, but at least the first four or five races of the season, signs didn't even have a second place in that specific category. So, yeah, he did a marvelous job in terms of getting up to speed very quickly. I think at the moment, you know, Charlotte Claire has finished ahead in more qualifying sessions.

Charlotte Claire has finished ahead in more race situations as well. The points aren't reflecting that, mainly because of the two instances you've already brought up. Monaco, signs had 18 points. points on him. You're absolutely right. It was Charles LeCler's own fault that he didn't get anything from that race. And that is definitely his biggest weakness is that he still does have these errors where he is costing himself. Hungary is the opposite of that where he definitely couldn't have done anything about bowling ball stroll that cannon into him. And the only bad thing that Charles LeCler did in that Hungarian race is he qualified too well. If he qualifies

worse, he doesn't get involved in that, and he does what O'Connor Vettel did. So, you know, you can't really blame him for qualifying well. So if I'm looking at it now, there's three points in it, and that's a 33 point swing to signs, just those two races, theoretically in the last half of this year, are both of those things going to happen again? Probably not. In which case, I do think Shao Leclair is going to overturn this deficit, but it wouldn't surprise me either way. It wouldn't surprise me if Sines does end up being Leclair. If I had to put money on it, I'd put money on Leclair. But Sines is doing far better than I thought he would do,

and I'm very glad that he's proved me wrong on this. I wouldn't put my money on Leclair. Not in hot conditions, it will get quite sticky. What would you put your money on? What could this degree write in? Maybe a cream horn or a fresh donut, perhaps. Cream horn or fresh donut, everyone. Get your answers in the chat.

I'm sorry. I mean, not even like, what would you put your money on them to do? Just eat him. Just be tasty. Yeah. Don't got, so are always tasty. True. Fair enough.

Do you know what the tasty are then? A brunch bar. I'm still not over Harry comparing Lewis Hamilton to a brunch bar. It's the bigger tournament I can give. So I don't know what you want. He loves a brunch bar, folks. I'd like to see a collaboration between granola bars or, what are those ones that you used to get with like the jam in the middle?

Neutral grain bars. I'd like to see a Nutragrine Hamilton collab after he retires or something like that. We'll get like a purple flavour. It'd be like Blackcurrant jam or something. And that'll be the Lewis Jamelton bar. God. The amount you work to set that up as well, honestly. it more than anything.

The grind is real. Oh, the grafts. The grafts of the punchline. Look up the definition of the word seamless and you will see whatever the hell the opposite of that was. I've impressed. This face crying.

Honestly. I've just realized as well most of these references. They probably haven't made their way over to the States. So just to give a bit of context. Brunch bars, they're like a chocolate like. Heavenly goodness.

they're all right. They are... Harry's big of them. Nutra Grangs are the creme della crem or breakfast bars. Folks, basically, you know what you're at school and you have like your... We call it a tuck break over here.

You break between your breakfast and your lunch. You get like 15 minutes. So you have a snack. Brunch bars, lunch and breakfast, you know, brilliantly named. I like a little tasty, healthy snack that you get to take with you in your bag and it's just a cereal bar.

Serial bar. That's what they are there. We are moving on. I'm not taking no for an answer this time. We've got Sebastian Betel to discuss now. So obviously he's 11 races into his Aston Martin career. A bit difficult to tell exactly what the expectations were coming into this season. Of course, going up against Lance Stroll.

Finished on the podium once, very nearly twice. He stood on a podium twice, finished on a podium once. So he's leading in the points against his teammate. Harry overall How would you rate it? Do you think he's exceeded your expectations? Do you think he's fallen short? Do you think he is about where you thought he might be?

This is a difficult one to judge Because I think if you went, if you're judging it on his overall career of being an F1 driver, you know, he's a four-time war champion. And this year, as a whole, so far, has been up and down. It sounds like the two-time world champ

for the four-time watchamp. yeah anyway thank you no one can see this and it's just they've put me off anyway yeah so

it's been an up and down up and down year for Seb he's had some we mentioned this last week some fairly strong results still on the podium twice Monaco another solid race for him as well

but there have been some low Silverstone the first race in Bahrain so yes I think in the overall context of Sebastian Vetter's career I think he's having an average season so far compared to last year it's it's above expectations i mean if you

based it purely on what 2020 was for seb you'd say this is this is gone above and beyond what he achieved last year um i think it would be it would have been interesting if astin martin racing point hadn't necessarily lost the speed they had in that car last year through whatever reason and to see where that would have put him, would it maybe have exposed his slow start a bit more, or maybe he would have jumped on it a bit more, I don't know, but I think that would have been interesting. So I think maybe people were expecting that car to be on the pace straight away,

maybe that's reflected badly on his season, but I don't think that's necessarily his fault. Yeah, so I'll say he is about where I thought he would be. He's exceeded, as I said, he's exceeded on last year, but overall it's been average for Sebastian Vettel standards, I'd say. But yeah, I think it's, as we said last week, I think it can only improve from here on anyway. I think at the beginning of the season,

it was a fair question to ask, is the old Sebastian Vettel, the old championship winning Sebastian Vettel still there? So, Harry 11 races in, are you any closer to answering that one way or the other? Oh, thank God you ask that. Such a Harry-Ey answer where he spoke for five minutes and never actually made a conclusion.

I always make it. It's a separate question. Solid conclusion. I did. I said, I said, I said, it's where I thought it was a big. He's good, maybe. He's exactly where I thought he might be. But that was one of the options that gave me.

Yeah, all right. Anyway, the old champion is, he's inside there, like a little small Sebastian Vetter inside the man. You've been a version of him. And sometimes he manages to get out. I think there's been some performances this year where you'd say that is vintage Sebastian Vettel, but he's not been there all the time. So I don't think he's there yet.

But as I said, the little Sebastian Vetter, four war championship crowns on his head that lives inside man-sized Sebastian Vettel. He's trying to get out. He's almost out. I don't think it's quite there yet, but there are definitely glimpses of him. Is that better? Yeah, that's all right. Yeah, I'll do. I mean... Sebastian Little. Like Stuart Little, but it's a movie about a tiny Sebastian Vettel. I'd watch that. Like Rattatooie on the chef's head, right? Where he controls him pulling his hair.

Yes, exactly like that. Good God. Sam, since you were unimpressed by Harry's answer of not giving an answer one way or the other, and it was a perfectly acceptable answer to say that he has matched expectations, I'm assuming now, Sam, that you're going to say one way or the other, definitively he has exceeded or not exceeded. I think he is exceeding expectations. I think Sebastian Vettel has a score to settle, and I think that he is coming back with a vengeance.

I think it started off slow and that is fine again new team to adjust to you've got to get to a group for the longer different things a whole new culture he came from a very difficult and honestly

a bit of a sad place Sebastian Betel he was not himself he was not good he was not the four-time World Champ that we remember walking on doing the Egyptian pose and waving that little finger

and doing a little ring-ding ding over the microphone you know this was not the Sebastianian Betel of the four-time World Champ days this was a I mean to quote Harry read there a bit of a shell he was just a big man betel without the little fun four-time world champ

bettling side of him and i think lorick stroll was somehow restored this childlike love for the sport i think bett was excited to turn up for every race i think vetto was excited to be part of this team and i feel like the team have welcomed bettel so much i saw i saw a comparison photo of sebastian's Vestel, Sebastian's Vettel. Sebastian Vessel's birthday at Ferrari. And his birthday at Aston Martin. And his birthday at Ferrari, there was a little cake on a wall on the side of the room. And it was just even stood there on his own, cutting a slice.

When he only even spoke to him. And at Astor Martin, he walks into the garage. There's a full ray of balloons and they're all cheering him. And he only been there for like two months, bless him. I think that we have seen a glimmer of old Vetter. and I think he's already exceeded my expectations. He's doing exactly what Aston Martin came to do, and that is getting to polio of positions when the race is odd,

the race is different, something strange happens. He's using that expertise brilliantly well. And I think we're going to see more of that as the season comes on, as he gets more comfortable as he grows more into that car. I really think this is going to be a good season for Sebastian of Metal. Do I think it's as good as when he won four-time, four-world champions in a row? No, of course not. But I don't expect that level of performance anymore.

He's reached his peak and moved on from it. What I did expect was actually for him to crumble, for him to not have a good time, for it to just be Sebastian Betts was driving around in the midfield and Lark Stroll was beating him. But that's not the case. I'm really impressed with how much he's developed and changed in that team.

I think it's going to continue. So yeah, he's exceeded everything that I thought he was going to do so far. Fair enough. Similar follow-up question to what I said to Harry. So if you say that he isn't as his peak anymore, he's been there, he's gone past it. My question to you is,

if Lewis Hamilton a couple years older than Vettel can still be at his peak, why can't Vettel be at his? Because people are people, Benjamin. And that's why I act like a child when I'm the oldest one here and you tell me off like a grumpy man when you're the youngest one here. So that's why, because time is relative.

Fair enough. Honestly, Dungo, Lewis Hamilton's the goat. Sebastian Vetto is just very, very, good and I think he had a bit of a difficult path, whereas Hamilton has been nurtured by one team for essentially his entire career, and it makes a massive difference. So that's why I think. I think Vettel unfortunately got thrown around, had a lot of missed opportunities, Ferrari didn't treat him right, realised he wasn't the golden child, it wasn't going to fulfill Michael Schumacher's

previous establishments as a German man in the Ferrari team. And I think that crushed him a little bit, unfortunately. I think Ferrari also were a bit frustrated. So I don't think it went the right way for him. I think running the Ferrari Pitwall strategy department, for five years wipes a lot of your peak off. Well,

signs is on that now, isn't it? Science is on that now, yeah. We're just saying how good how good science is doing. Give it a couple of years, his peak will be, he'll be long gone. Yeah. He'll have a tiny Carlos

science trying to get out of him. Let me out. Vamont. Vanikos, Carlos, Carlos. It's a really high-pitched smooth operator. Vammoth. But yeah, I have to say, he's gone he's properly gone

it's the time of jaylor always sent sam i love it um it will yeah i have to say like overall i i agree with what you said on sebastian vessel there that people are people and i don't think you can expect every single driver to peak at exactly the same time and have exactly the same amount of time at that peak it is completely unrealistic and if it if that was the case it would be a much more boring world world for it. So yeah, I agree with you on that. As for the original question, has Sebastian Vettel exceeded or fallen short or matched expectations? It's a really difficult question because to answer that, you need to know what you were expecting from Sebastian Vettel. And I think the answer is, no one really

knew what to expect from Sebastian Vettel. I think outside of possibly Fernando Alonzo, who was returning to Formula 1 after a few year absence, outside of him, Sebastian Vettel was probably the hardest one to judge because we've seen him at his absolute peak winning consecutive championships four years in a row we've also seen what's happened to him in the likes of 2014 and 2020 against ricardo and leclair 2019 obviously didn't win against leclair either so we've definitely seen the ups and downs of vettel and moving to a brand new team is another element to just throw in there so what were we what were we expecting from sebastian vettel it's really difficult one to judge. I would on balance say that he has pretty much matched expectations for me. I, again,

wasn't entirely sure what to expect, but I think overall I was expecting a slow start. I didn't think it would be too impressive in the first four, five races, which I think is pretty much what happened. And then he would slowly get there against Lance Stroll, again, which I think is what's happened. If I had to be picky, I'd probably say he has. If I had to go one way or the other I would probably say he's fallen a bit short compared to what I thought he could achieve rather than exceeded. But again, I think that's entirely dependent

on what you think he's capable of at this point in his career. Do you think he is capable of what he did in 2011? If the answer is yes, then you're going to be disappointed at what he's done this year. If you don't think that's achievable anymore and you've already put that to rest, then yeah, you're going to be much more happy with what you've seen from Sebastian Vettel.

You know, in terms of, we have to say, there have been a few standout results that I think have flattered him slightly in comparison to Lance Stroll. So, I mean, Hungary didn't actually end up being a result for him. So that one can be taken off. But if you look at Monaco is the other one. I can't remember if you finish fifth or sixth there, but he was strong at that circuit. And then obviously the other podium he had at Baku. So I think the race is where he's done well, he's been able to score high points.

The races where Stroll has done well, it may be just. hasn't materialised to the same degree. So I think the score line does flatter him slightly, but all in all, I think it's very close between them. I have to say, though, you go back, just take your minds back to just over three years ago, let's say May of 2018 as just a reference point. It was a few, just a few years ago, just go back to a few years ago. Imagine saying whilst Vettel was embroiled in a championship battle with Lewis Hamilton that season, imagine saying in three years time Sebastian Vettel, because Lance Stroll has beaten Sebastian Vettel more times than vice versa

when they both finished, imagine saying in three years time, Lance Stroll is going to beat Sebastian Vessel more times than the reverse happens and it's not going to be a surprise. Could you imagine saying that in 2018? I think that speaks volumes to how little we expect from Vettel now, but in comparison to where he was, that statement would have been shocking at the time. Now, it seems perfectly reasonable.

So, again, it depends what you're basing it on, what you're comparing him to. But yeah, and just to say, in terms of the Sebastian Vettel of Old, the Sebastian Vettel of Old that we remember is best known for being absolutely brilliant in the first five laps of races, getting out a DRS range,

and being untroubled for the rest of the Grand Prix, and that reality is not achievable with the car that he's got. We don't remember peak Sebastian Vessel, even though he has always been a great racer. We don't remember him being the best wheel-to-wheel driver. That's not what his legacy will be. So it's not as if that would be transferable to now, because he's still able to do that,

but he's not able to do what he was best at 10 years ago in 2021. one. So expecting that level of Sebastian Vessel what he was able to do back then, he can't do it with the car he's got. So there is that to it as well. Do you want, first of all, do you want F1 higher and lower? And second of all, do you want a theme song to accompany it? Are you asking us all these poor listeners that have had to enjoy this podcast? Both. Well, it's a note. Yeah, it's free and oh. All right. I'm going to play it anyway. F1, higher or lower. Coming up. is F1 higher

Is F1 lower Is that faster Is Harry slower F1 higher F1 lower F1 Oh That is almost as much of a classic

As country roads That is Wow That is That is 23 seconds of your lives list that you are never getting back just we apologise. I've had to sing that.

I've had to sing that. It starts out fairly, we said this beforehand, it starts out fairly well and in tune, and then halfway through it's just like, nope. And enough of that.

Listeners, if you want to get me in a recording booth with some actual artists and some interest was playing, they'll be much better, I promise. I'm doing this in an office in a church in London. Yeah, I live in a converting church.

I don't live in slough! no he lives in Reddit instead we're going to play version 2.0 of F1 higher and lower which we have done before so what will happen here I've got six different things I appreciate that's a bit vague at this point in front of me that I have some sort of number value to them

we'll take it in turn so I will ask Harry what he thinks that number would be when I give him the category and then Sam will have to say whether he thinks that he has gone too low with his guess and should go higher, or whether he's gone too high with his guess, in which case he should go lower. If that person gets it right, they get a point. If they don't, the other person gets a point.

Are we all clear? Yes. Yes. It's easy to just say, it's easier to say yes. Listen, folks, and you'll get it after the first one. Yeah, it's easy enough. And if you get it spot on, you get two points. But there are, there might be...

Oh, new rule. Yeah, you get two points if you get a spot on. So, Harry, you can go first in terms of guessing. Pick a number between one and six. Four. Number four, okay. I want you to tell me how many race wins James Hunt got in his career? Nine.

Just F1 career. Just F1 career, yeah. Nine is the gambit from Harry Ead. Sam, higher or lower than that? He's a world champ. He's a world champ. World Champion. It's got me more than nine. But there won't as many races and he wasn't actually around for that long.

Because the little rascal decided he didn't fancy it after anymore. He's a little rascal. I love him. I'm going to hire. I'm going to hire because he's a world champion. He's got more than nine. Well, Harry set you a tough task because he was only one out. But you have guessed the right way. He had 10 race wins. I feel that... Wow. That is harsh. You won't get a point for that one, Harry. That was a good guess.

Damn, down, down, damn. Fair play to you. All right, Sam leads 1-0. Getting. Any number between 1 and 6 that isn't 4, please, Sam. Uh, 4. Let's go for number 2, because you're a 2. You really test me sometimes.

This is good, because you've got the most difficult one now, so good luck. Oh, good. I want you to tell me how many points Valtrey Bottas has had in his career? His career? Yeah. Not that many. It's not that many. Okay. In his career.

I'm going to go with 684. Higher or lower than that mark, Harry. I'm going to go lower. You guys need to put some respect on Bottas' name. God. First of all,

first of all, Sam insults the man massively, by giving him a thousand points less than what he's actually achieved. And then Harry decides he doesn't even deserve that many. Oh, that's because bad maths from me, to be fair. Bossass has had 1,620 points.

Has he? They add up. Second place finishes down after that. Was it a gift? Was it a, yeah. I mean, was it a... There you go. In 2017, he had like, 300 in that year alone. Is it like a loyalty reward

for his, like, coffee that he gets? Get eight coffees from us He will give you 100 points He has earned every single one of his points Leave Valtrey alone To quote Harry's old phrase for Brendan Hartley Oh Brendan Oh, Brenda Oh, I miss him

You might have been closer if you were guessing Brendan Hartley's points But there you go All right So somehow Sam is a thousand points out And gets a point Whereas Harry was one point out With the previous one

And didn't get a point Sam's 2-0 up Harry You need some points now Harry Pick a number between 1 and 6 That is not too awful Six please Alright

We're staying in Finland Kimster Kimi Reichenen How many pole positions Has he achieved in his career Bloody hell He's had 20

All right 20 pole positions It's not dead on So Sam Higher or lower man hasn't touched the top spot in about three decades so I'm going to say he had his heyday and I don't rate him as highly as a lot of people do

I'm going to go I'm going to go lower I feel bad again because it's a good guess in the first one out is it it's two out this time but again it's two out the correct way for you Sam because it's 18 that he actually got so at 3-0 this is almost unassailable at this point. Whitewash.

Yeah. Number one, three or five, Sam. I will go with number five. Okay. This one involves maths. Oh, for Christ's sake.

It also involves Harry's favourite driver. I'll get in the bin. I want you to tell me how many podium positions Jacques Villeneuve and Gilles Vilnournev had in their careers combined.

I've got all those up. I'm not like the numbers are large, should be fair, but... Combined. Combined. Okay, I'm going to say combined, they had 26 combined.

Harry, higher or lower than 26? I've got to go lower. It's higher, of course. I know it's Jack Villenev, but come on, man. They actually had 36 between them. Oh, okay. Gilles Vilnourth had 13, and Jack Villeneuve naturally is the better of the two drivers are 23. 23 pole positions.

Sorry, podiums. No, it's podiums. Oh, podiums. I would grow right if I knew it was podiums, obviously. Well. Oh, we look really bad in terms of trivia. I mean, you're right, Sam. You went in 4-0. So there's only...

It's only two left, which is either number one or number three. Harry, which one do you want? I've got number one, please. All right, number one. How many race entries, so that's not race starts, but race entries, has Charles LeClaire had in his career? So, for example, the D.Ns, so he didn't start Monaco, but it counts in entries. Okay, I'm with you. Thank you.

many has he had in his career? How many... How many years is... Again, is it F1 career here? Yeah, just F1. Yeah, right. This is up to the Hungarian GP. This is up to and including the Hungarian GP. Okay.

So we've had 11 races this year. I'm actually trying to add these up. I really hope you don't try to, because based on your form so far, you're going to end up with about four. Nope. Or a thousand and four. One or the other.

I'll go for 72. All right. It's not then on. Damn it. Sam. Higher or lower than that? I'm going higher. Harry finally has a point on the board. Damn it.

Which I'm glad for, because all of these guesses are really good. He had 70, so just two out on that. Oh, I was thinking about, I was thinking high 60s, that's the way. Well, if you were thinking high 60s, you probably should have gone lower. Is that what I said? Oh, poo, I even got my words wrong. I'm winging this, folks, remember that. Jackie Hicks all over again.

He said 72, but I think it might only be like 68. Yeah, let's go higher. There's a reason why I don't like math question. making me lose my loss even more embarrassing. From 4-0, it's now 4-1, Harry. You'll be delighted to hear. So there's no pressure on this last one. The result is sewn up either way.

This one is ever so slightly different, and that it's not higher or lower. It's instead before or after, because it's related to a year. F-1. So what's four? It doesn't quite work the same, is it? No, not quite.

Emerson Fittapaldi What was the last year he raced in Formula One? This could be one of those blokes that just carried on He's well old now, though, any old M.O. I'm going to start with 19, in case that surprises you. It's a good start. I go, 1979. Harry, it's not dead on.

so do you think it was before or after that? I'm going to go for before. Sam gets the point and it's a very good guess. It was only one year out. 1980. Oh, really? Oh. He did very well up until 1975 and then he went and joined his, yeah.

Oh, yeah, he joined his Brazilian team and did nothing. Yeah, and then didn't really, couldn't really do much. Wasn't there something a bit do a bit do about? that team. Finanually there are some strange things going on. 1970s F1? Nah, can't believe that.

No. No. It's all in here. Anyway, Sam, you've not only won. You've won by five points to one. Demolition. Oh, it's a good one. Hark's back to my England days against Germany.

Let's treat you with this win by giving you your own voice back to you. I love it. This country ballad. It's F1 higher. Is F1 lower? Is sad faster?

Is Harry slower? F1 higher. F1 lower. F1. Oh, it's snappy at the end. Good. Beautiful. And I can't think of a better way to finish off the podcast.

Got through quite a lot in the hour that we've done here today. And as we mentioned, at the start of the podcast, we are going to be together next weekend. Not if you listen to this in like four weeks time, in which case we met up like three weeks ago. But if you're listening to this at a reasonable time, next weekend we're going to be together. So if you have any ideas for content, let us know. We'll be sure to do something in the time we have available to us. But Sam, if you wouldn't mind until the next week's podcast, we'll be back, of course, normal time.

Get us out of here. Folks, if you want that content to be me singing that country anthem, live while Harry strums on the acoustic guitar by an open fire. We dress bang up like a rabbit to run round in the background then. Do get involved over on the Discord. It's very important that we hear your thoughts and we will make that happen if enough of you say so. By and enough, I mean, at least one of you. Folks, F1 content as always.

Let us know what you think about the topics. Get the Discord to talk with us. We move back, of course, next week as well for more Chipchat and F1 Stiley. Again, we always appreciate your support. There's so many of you now that listen. It absolutely baffled us. So thank you for sticking around. In the meantime, I'll be telling you.

safe. I've been a rabbit in the background. And I've been Sebastian Little. And remember, keep breaking late. Oh, Babacles! Find more great shows or join the team at sport-socel.com. Cast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.