The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Does Sebastian Vettel get enough respect? | Episode 122

Episode Date: May 26, 2021

Does Sebastian Vettel get enough respect? Should drivers be penalised for causing red flags? What do Alpine do with their young drivers? All of these questions will be answered in this week's Late Braking F1 Podcast!Tweet us @LBrakingMake sure to SUBSCRIBE! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to look out for new episodes every Thursday and Grand Prix Sundays. Hello and a very warm welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast. It's a good thing we have a week off because I'm not quite sure my heart to deal with the excitement of Monaco all over again this weekend. But we've still got, we're still here with a podcast, so all is good. To be honest, I'm just trying to make sure that we get through the podcast without being interrupted by Lance Stroll.

We know how that, how prominent that is in key moments, though. Just hoping we get through the entire hour today without that happening to us. My name is Ben Hocking, Harry Eats here, of course. And Sam's age, after a podcast absence at the Monaco Review, you're back. Good to see you, buddy. Cheers. Thanks for that we have the weekend off. It was my mum's 50th birthday.

she was quite appreciative. Full-time listener is my mum. So she said, lucky you uploading that podcast late. Otherwise, like I found out. She says nothing like that. She's not really that old at all. But it's good to be back.

Also, I think of this a lot, didn't I, folks. The Monaco Grand Prix proving there why I'm right in all things Monaco-related and you're all wrong. So good to be back. Cheers. Sam, you said it was your mum's 50th birthday,

but I think the listeners all would agree with us that actually you were debuting as a TV director in Monaco last weekend. Don't tell them my secret job. Yes, it was me. I was the one on the camera that suddenly swapped it over to Brad to Lance Stroll, where we missed the only piece of on-track action for the entire race. So, sorry, that's my bad. And if you have anything to say about that,

you can get in touch via complaints at late breaking. dot com. Moving on, coming up on today's show, should F1 go ahead with a qualifying rule, which would essentially have stopped Shalda Clare from getting pole position at the weekend. Should a red flag coming out delete times? We'll be discussing that one later on.

We'll also be discussing Esteban Ockon's season so far, and what that might mean for the Alpine Academy drivers that are waiting in the wings in Formula 2. And F1 higher and lower comes back, but with a small twist. But before we get to all of that, I know, it really isn't that exciting. I've big that up and way too much. I'd stick around for it, but maybe don't expect it to be a drastic change that will change your lives.

Anyway, we're going to start with Sebastian Vettel. Say that then. Why would you say, no, no, tell them it's going to change their lives, please, so then they stick around to the end. Fine. All right, it will change your lives. And then when it doesn't, you can comply. by going to complaints at latebreaking.com and it will filter him with all the rest of them. But we are going to start, for real this time, with Sebastian Vettel. He had P5 at the Monaco Grand Prix.

So his 10 points were the first that he's had this season. First, of course, for Aston Martin. And it now means he's actually ahead of Lance Stroll by one point. So Sam, Vettles come under fire quite a bit this season. And to be honest, the last few seasons, do you think that it's justified? And do you think he actually gets the respect that he deserves? service. Sebastian Vessel in the short term has not been the driver that he once was. I'll give you that. He's been beaten by Charles LeCleur, who is proven to be one of the best up and cumbers in a long time, probably since I think maybe Lewis Hamilton debuted at the front of the sport, I would go as far to say. LeCle is possibly a vat making. Let's retrain Vettel here, because I'm not going any names, but there's been some drama over on the Twitter sphere from a few Formula One influence.

that have said that Sebastian Vettel is the most overrated F1 driver, right? That's sinking, yeah, he's one. If you're new to Formula One, he's a four-time world champion. So, Toro-Rosso, when it all BNW, you weren't really there. Toroso, first ever winner for Toroso, pretty good, right? If you haven't seen that race, go watch the work race in Wongza. It's a cracker, and then gets promoted to Red Bull, first ever winner for Red Bull as well.

And then a four-time world champion, while starting up against Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, Jensen Button, just to name a few, just a few. You know, it does pretty well there. Then goes to Ferrari, also known as one of the most difficult places in Formula One to have success at the moment.

He is the third highest race winner for the Tofosi behind Nicky Lauder and Michael Schumacher. Realistically, two more races, he'd be second. The guy can pull out an absolute performance if he wants to and if he's on the ball. also he's the only man that's really gone toe to toe to and Lewis Hamilton other than Rosberg who's within the same machinery and now

Bostappen and yes he had some inconsistencies but it was also Ferrari who caused some problems there. It wasn't just Vessel alone also he's got a teammate who was also a world champion, Kimmy Rikening who did nothing in that time period and now he's at Aston Martin there's a blinding strategy call

he drove a brilliant race qualifying was really really good it takes a bit of time to get your head straight. Sebastian Vettel does not get the credit that he deserves long term. Just because he's not carried on the same trajectory, words of hard, folks, that Lewis Hamilton has been on when he improves every single season. No one does that. No F1 driver gets to the age of Lewis Hamilton. It's under Lewis Hamilton and keeps getting better. Sebastian Vetter is going to have a plateau. He's having that. But he's still having a great time

at the moment. Austin Martin's getting him of his teammate. He's very brilliantly. It's improving. I reckon by race 11 or 12, we consistently see Vettel beating Stroll. He doesn't get the respect that he deserves. I'll go as far as say he's a top 10, top 15 driver of all time. If you look at his history, he's had some real crackers. And two of those seasons that he won the championship, he had to scrap for right until the very end of the season. Go to your history before you start putting absolute disrespect

on my main man, said me there, because I won't stand for it. I want to pick up on something you just said there before going to Harry. You said that he is a top 10 or a top 15 driver of all time. If we're looking at championships and championships only, it's only Fangio Hamilton and Schumacher that have won more than him, so only three drivers and of course Prost is level with him on four. So using those, he's a top five driver. Does only calling him a top 15 driver say disrespect him at all?

Or does his championships not marry up to what a good driver he is? I think that people often forget in the previous years when Vessel first went to Red Bull when he had that challenge. Just how difficult a couple of those seasons were, and I have explained already, you know, the drivers he was going up against, the drivers he was having to fight tooth and nail against, especially two of those years.

One of those years, folks, we had seven different winners in the first seven races, and he still came out as champion. The guy is able to pull out a performance. Now, I think it's actually more the times have changed, And so drivers like Clark, drivers like Sertys, who regularly get elevated up the top 10 conversation, came from different times.

You had shorter careers. Drivers unfortunately died. You know, that is a thing that happened a lot. Previously in Formula One, again, if you got O'Fa with the history of F1, it happened a lot. It was a regular thing. Careers were cut short.

Drivers tried their hands at different categories way more often. Certies and Clark being two candidates for that as well. Vettel, I think, regularly gets to stake his name that top 10. I don't always think that championships are always the first thing you should gauge things by. Sena's only got three, but people regularly say that Sena are their best driver of all time. Again, his career is unfortunately cut short. We know that.

So I don't think championships are definite on where you get to standing a top 10, top 15 conversation. But if you're not considering Sebastian Vettel in your top 10, top 15, I think you need to do some more research in Formula 1 because the man in his heyday was absolutely awesome. And I don't think you understand just how much. much you have to do as a world champion to be the level that Sebastian Vetter was. And the immortal question, is he better than Ricardo Rossett? Absolutely not. Could go either way, really.

I mean, Ricardo Rossett gets to be on a separate list, Ricardo Rosset. It doesn't get including any list because it would be unfair. That's perfectly understandable. Harry, what's your view on this? Do you think that Vettel considering the success he's had? Does he get the respect that he deserves from the F1 community as a whole? I think, and Sam made this point already, I think he falls foul of being compared to Hamilton quite often,

which almost isn't fair, because we know how good Hamilton is, and he, you know, Vettel is not on the level of Lewis Hamilton. I think we can all pretty much agree on that one. So I think that's an unfair comparison. He did go to-to-to-to-to-to-to-with Hamilton, He didn't win on any of those occasions, but he still gave him a run for his money. And as Sam said, he still has four world championships to his name.

And it's only in the last couple of years, last year and a half. Because I would even argue his 2019 season wasn't horrendous. Yes, LeCler was, you know, clearly came in and was better than Seb ever thought he was going to be. But he still gave him a run for his money quite a lot of the time during the year in 2019. It was only 2020 where it all kind of fell apart. and we can all make a case for why that happened. So it's not been horrendous for Seb for that long. 2018, again, it's the Hamilton comparison.

He lost out to Hamilton. He made mistakes, yes, but he was still winning races. He was still being a great driver. It was just he was up against a better one. But there aren't many above him that are better. So, yeah, I think that's hurt, you know, in the eyes of the effort. one community who are a fickle bunch. I think we can agree on that.

But yeah, I think that's kind of hurt how people view him. And unfairly, I would say, I don't think that's fair. I think you can't just judge him on the past year and a half. Can't judge his legacy on the past year and a half. So, yeah, and then going further back to his Red Bull days, people that say that he didn't deserve those titles, you know, he was lucky he had the best car. This argument comes around all the time with drivers.

came around with Schumacher. It's around now with Hamilton as well, and it's rubbish. It's just the worst argument. It doesn't work. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I find it strange when people say he's overrated. It genuinely, it does baffle me sometimes because we know how good a driver is. And he's started to show some glimpses again. I think, as I've said, it was a really good strategy call on Sunday in Monaco.

But Seb still had to absolutely nail the inlapse to, to, to, to, jump Hamilton and Gasly and he did. It was by the finest of margins, but he still did it. So, yeah, I think he does get, he doesn't get necessarily all the respect that he should do. And as I said, I think it is because of the last couple of years and the comparisons to Hamilton, but that's not, you know, it's not necessarily a fair comparison. So, yeah, we love, he said. I think you've made mistakes, but I think you deserve more respect for what you've done. I think the main problem here is that the either side of whether Vettel is overrated or whether you love Sebastian Vettel, a lot of the time there are people on both sides that won't look at the entire picture. Those who love Sebastian Vettel will not consider the actions of the last few years. And those who hate Sebastian Vettel will not go back far enough in time to consider the great success that he had early in his career. And the truth is you need to. to look at all of it because we're looking at his career as a whole. I don't necessarily think

that, you know, analyzing the last few years and criticizing where necessary, I don't think that automatically means you aren't giving him the respect that he deserves. It's just the case. And that's the case for absolutely every driver as well. It's not just Vessel. You know, Hamilton is one of the best of all time. Many would argue he is the best of all time. That doesn't stop us from being, not even critical, just judging him for his performance. is on merit each and every time he goes out on track. That's what you do. You get new information each time someone races. So to go ahead and analyze that isn't an issue at all. Having said that, there are a lot of people, yeah, who will just ignore the success that he

had early in his career and say that maybe he's overrated or maybe they are just looking at the last couple of years. And if you're to do that, you are taking away a large portion of what has been an incredible career from someone as talented as Sebastian Vettel. You've already gone through some of his career highlights, Sam, but I'll jump on the back of that because 2008, yeah, he wins in a Toro Rosso, and I want to make the point here as well. He doesn't just win in a Toro Rosso because, you know, Pierre Gasley has technically done that as well when he won at Monza last year. And no disrespect to Pierre Gasly whatsoever, but he didn't win that race on pace,

nor should he have it expected to, based on him being in the, you know, fifth or sick fastest car. It's not to besmirch his name whatsoever. But he won that race because of the way it fell into his lap. Sebastian Vessel won the 08 Italian Grand Prix on pace. He was the fastest guy out there, and he did an incredible job. And really, all year, he beat Bordeaux, the immortal Sebastian Bordeaux, 35 points to four, which, you know, that's pretty good going.

And looking ahead, so 2009, he doesn't win the championship that year. Of course, that year it goes to Jensen Button at Braun, but he does hold Button quite close. It was 11 points in it at the end of the season. Yet the first two races of that year, Button won both of them, and Vettl retired from both of them. So after two races, Button was 20 points ahead. So if you take out the first two races of 2009, Vettel actually has more points than Button that year. and it's also important to bear in mind that season as well. Button had a grand total of one DNF.

Vettl had five. Vettel had more DNFs than anyone else in the top 10 of the championship that year. He didn't have very good luck when it came to reliability. If he had, he might well have won that title. And then you look at his four-year stretch where he went four consecutive championships. It's incredible to me that this gets just shoved under the rug as if it's nothing. He won four consecutive championships, and it's a perfect mixture of how he won them. He won them firstly due to pure dominance in 2011 and 2013.

I mean, he won the 2011 championship by 222 points, and then in 2013, that wasn't enough, so he won it by 255 points. And then the other part of the mixture is he won the other two championships by performing in the clutches moments. Just listen to this. So 2010, he becomes the youngest ever champion, obviously. Four races to go. He's 21 points behind Mark Weber and he's in fourth place. He ends up winning the championship. 2012, seven races to go. He's 39 points behind Fernando Alonzo. And again, he's fourth in the championship. He needed to make it work in the dying embers of both of those seasons and he won both championships. So for me, his four-year stretch is a perfect mixture of sheer dominance. and performing when it matters most. Now, what has happened since 2013 should not be ignored at all, but what he did in that stretch is mesmerizing, really.

He was a four-time champion at the age of 26. 26 years old, he was a four-time champion. Just to put that into some context, if we were only including championships won at the age of 26 or younger, Alan Prost, Ayrton Senner, Nelson P.K., Nigel Mansell, Mika Hakenen, Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark, they would all have no championships. Lewis Hamilton would be a one-time champion and Michael Schumacher would be a grand total of a two-time champion. Vettel had four by the age of 26, which just goes to show how quickly he managed to

adapt to the sport as a whole. As I said, the stuff since 2013 should absolutely not be ignored and they should be counted against his legacy somewhat where necessary. He lost to Daniel Ricardo in Daniel Ricardo's first season at Red Bull. He did the same thing with Charles Leclair at Ferrari. It's a bit worrying that it happened twice, basically the same situation both times. And yes, he lost out to Lewis Hamilton in 2018, largely due to errors of his own making.

They should count against his legacy. But you have to go a long, long way before that out does, winning four championships in a row by the age of 26. Good debate. Bloody good debate that was. Enjoyed that. So, Seb Vettel for World Champion next year?

For president. I'm keen. If it happens, I'm so keen for a semi-vete fifth title. What a redemption arc that is. One thing to just touch on before we go on to our next topic as well. Sebastian Vettel, how he has changed in the eyes of the general... I know there are a section who think he's overrated, but he was the most hated man in F1 at one point. You've voted 10 years ago.

And it's a complete transfer. Loads of people absolutely love the guy, including myself. Like, you know, there's... Seems to be a massive transition. Yeah, he was, I think, could be found to be quite annoying at winning a lot of Red Bull. I think the way his finger waving, I think, got on a lot of people. There's nerves. Did you hear him do that?

He did the ring. ring the ding ding ding ding. Hello, about to be a bit about the window. Seb? Right ding, ding, ding, ding. Crazy Frog P5 at Monaco Grand Prix.

Who'd have thwarted it? All right, we're going to move on to Charler-Clair. So he was set to start on pole position at Monaco despite crashing in the final moments of qualifying. So in IndyCar, there is a rule

where drivers who bring out the red flag or in some circumstances bring out yellow flags. They are penalised by having their lap times deleted. Michael Massey spoke after the race and said that they will consider this rule and introducing it into F1. So what do you think, Harry? Do you think that this word, this would help? I don't think so.

I don't feel like it's a situation we get into very often. And I don't know how fair it is. I've seen indie car drivers, including Gerojon, who is now an Indycar driver, saying it's a fair, It's a fair situation. But, yeah, I don't buy, I think it's quite, we're in quite, Saturday was quite a unique one. As it is in Monaco in Kuali, it can happen.

But that rule would really only apply to Monaco qualifying or, you know, maybe Baku qualifying. But it's not often we get a red flag in the dying moments of a qualifying session. And if we looked back, the majority of them probably happened in Monaco. So, yeah, it seems, I think it seems a little unfair. I don't, you know, it's just part of it. It's what happens. It's like if you get a yellow flag at the end of qualifying,

like Bottas in Austria last year when he went to do some mowing, you know, well, you can't penal, unless they've done it deliberately, which in this case, it's not just no, then I don't see why you need to penalise them. They've not done it on purpose. It's an accident. It's part of us. the Stappen signs

Botas all should have got their quicker lapping on the first one. That's the point. Get your lap in quickly at the start and you won't have to worry about a red flag coming out. So yeah, I don't think we need that. I don't see why. As I said, I think it's quite a unique situation. So it's a big old no from me.

A bit on the fence there from Harry, as per usual. Not quite sure what he thinks there. Sam are you on board with what Harry said there? Is it a big fat no from you? The issue with the whole red flag and qualifying, especially around Monaco, is of course we know that a certain man in red has previously done something similar. And there were questions about legality and intention behind that remark, hasn't there?

I don't know what you're talking about, mate. No, Harry, of course, head of the Michael Schumacher fan club and head of the Jacques Villeneuve hate club. of course would never declare that Schumacher maybe tapped a wheel into a... It's a good club. Never tapped a wheel into the wall

to maybe end the qualifying session. He's not the only man to have been questioning around it either. Of course, Nico Rosberg. Again, Monaco ran it off into the parking zone off of one of the runoff areas. Of course, that ended qualifying. Breaks failed, mate. As you can see, folks,

I'm joined by the two most slanderous individuals in Formula One. I may will twist your melon to get anything across. Honestly, though, I do think that maybe something does need to change. I do think that maybe there needs to be an adaptation of rules here. I don't think it should be a your lap gets deleting if you bring out the red flag. But I do think there needs to almost be a recount of time lost. I do think there needs to be a reversal of kind of get yourselves back on the track of where you were

at the time that was remaining before the yellow or red flag comes out. Because mainly for entertainment purposes, I don't want qualifying ruined by yellow or red flag. I don't want my whole Saturday that I look forward to scratched with two minutes ago because someone's putting in a war and that's game over. Yes, okay, get your laughing early. I do agree with that sentiment. You should be putting your foot down. But that's the whole book of having a 12 minute qualifying session. We know it ramps up towards the end. Qualifying is exciting. I don't like that being taken away from me. So I think that there needs to be more wiggle room to have sessions

rebalanced or retimed a little bit after anything happens. If there are people who are the wrong laps or capable of starting laps, even if they get to do a one shot, one lap qualifying once the tracks been cleared. You get one go and that's it. And if you screw it up, you screw it up. That could be fun. But do I think that you should get your lap or anything later if you get red flag? No, I don't. I do think that honestly, 99.9% of the time, it's an honest mistake that people make once a year at a track such as Monaco, end of conversation. So you won't be able to see this on the camera, but I have a notepad here. I've got a fair few notes depending on what topic we're doing.

And my notes for this topic, I have literally got one line and it just says, nah, that's my view on it. Don't bother with it. For the reasons that these two gave, really, it's not something that happens very often. You would also then be stuck in a situation where what red flags or double wave yellows

if you want to include that as well, how do you police it? So is it just when a drive? ever makes an error or is it for any sort of red flag? Because for all, you know, we obviously know that Charlotte Claire made a mistake going into the swimming pool section. He had a crash. That's all fine.

What if it is later revealed? Actually, it was the brakes that failed. Should the driver still be penalised by having their previous lap time deleted because some, they, you know, a crash happened that wasn't their fault? You know, that sort of a question arises. And overall, I actually think Max was staff and put this quite well because it would have been a very easy opportunity. and Max was quite not angry, but I think he was frustrated when it happened.

Naturally so, he was on what he believed to be a poll obtaining lap. But I think he put this quite well afterwards that they are all going for it. They're all going for it 100% on those final runs. And sometimes that happens. And so it is. And you just get on with it in the knowledge that this will occasionally happen. And I'm okay with that. So I don't think this needs to change.

I would keep it exactly the same really. I don't think it needs to change at all. But I do want to go back to something that Sam actually raised about whether we could alter the rule slightly in a different way. So I think there's a point in that where a couple of drivers did have their laps ruined. But also, from a spectator's perspective as well, we were due a really thrilling last minute or two of Monaco qualifying, which we ended up not having. having. I want to put this over to you, Harry. What do you think of this idea? And it's related to what Sam said. What if, if there is a red flag after two minutes is left in the session or under that amount, let's, you know, a minute and a half minute and a red flag comes out,

the clock is reset to two minutes. And that stays at two minutes until the first driver crosses the cross the line to start their lap. So that's when the countdown resumes. Therefore, you're essentially giving everyone the opportunity to go out for one more lap. Obviously, it is dependent on if F2 or F3 is following on. But what's your thoughts on that, Harry?

Do you think that could work? I am less offended by that than the penalty idea, to be honest. I don't necessarily see it. I'm sure there are complications that would arise around it. but if we you know from a spectative point of view and Sam made a good point about this you know we we were denied a good end of quality there yeah I can see why that would be a sensible idea

and yeah I mean it wouldn't eat into too much time we you know sometimes we have red flags for like an hour and you know other formula make way for F1 most likely so um yeah I'll be okay with that If it meant that we could, I don't know, again, how would it be like, say they've all used their last set of tyres for most of the lap? And then they've got to go out again. I guess they have to stay on that tire.

I don't know. But in theory, I'm okay with that idea. I know you sort of raised a similar concept in your first go-round at this. But do you think that that sort of an idea would work? Any objections? You've done a classic Benerism there. you've taken Sam's ridiculous idea and you've filtering it through to be one that's actually usable for the real world is what you've done. And this is why we work so well as a trio, you know.

I'm the foghorn. Ben is the sieve. It's what we do. It's what we do. It's nicely tipping it out for each person to go, hey, just digest some of that. How do you like that? So yeah, I'm all for it. I also think you can introduce something along the lines of the track would have to be cleared of the red flag within, say,

15 minutes of the red flag coming out. Otherwise, again, you end up delaying everything for too long. It gets a little bit dull. So there's have to be other implications given. It would have to be, and you're right, I think same tires would have to stay on the car. But we're getting into semantics here. We're getting into too many levels of details. But I would like the ability to see the rest of qualifying play out. If you've made a mistake, you should have to pay a price for that. You might not come off. Everyone might qualify slower than you. But I do think that there needs to be the option for everyone to put their lap into place with the allotted a time given. In a race, the time stops, in qualifying the time stops, we should be able to consume the rest of that time with green flag running. And I mean, if we were stuck for a title

of the podcast this time out, we do have it now, which is the foghorn, the sieve and the distributor. So we are all good on that front. It's good to be back. Thank you, Sam. It's good to be back. We really missed it. I mean, we would not have come up with that ourselves. Put it that way. Like, it wasn't going to happen. Folks, I'll leave this segment with a small expression. It's going to be hashtag, tubble drive of mystery. Wouldn't expect anything else, honestly. Wouldn't expect anything else.

We'll move on to Esteban Ockon. He started the season in a fairly good way. That's my opinion. Might have a slightly different opinion, but I think he started out well. And he is currently leading his world champion teammate, Fernando Alonzo. So with his performances, plus Alonzo's security for next year, we want to take a look at the Alpine Academy because they've got quite a few drivers in F2 at the moment who are performing

rather well. So Guanyu Jho is leading the championship after two rounds or six races, depending on how you look at it, and Oscar Piastri is in second. Christian Lungard is another member who is down in 12th, but I think he's arguably far more talented than that 12th place leads us to believe. So, Sam, what do, what do Alpine do here? They've got a lot of junior drivers that they want to come through and no junior team to work with.

Get another team. That's end the conversation. Seriously, though, if they did decide to bring another team, all right. I'll be all up for it. We'll have a Renault junior team in F1, a bit like what Red Ball team. Sorry, I keep calling them Renaud.

They are Alpine, but they have Renault. We all know they are. Call it Renno. Bring it the Renault team back as a junior team. Benetton. Benetton works, you know, British home stores. It's another one that could be good. Other suggestions, let us know on Twitter.

Seriously, though, the person we should be looking at in this scenario is not Esmang Ocon. Espan Ocon has been brilliant this season. He's flown under the radio. I think he's one of the most underrated drivers on the grid in this 2021 season. We should be looking at his two-time world champion, Fernando Alonso. Oh, God, do I love Fernando? Oh, what a spicy, lovely man he is. He can wink at me in a deck chair all day long while I do the team.

in time, World Camp Dance in front of him. Yes, please, thank you very much. But, fancy little dancers and deck chairs while winking do not make a good season. No, they don't. And Fernando Alonso has not performed up to standard that his teammate is performing at. It's not been bad, but after 23 seasons,

I do think it should be re-evaluated, and whether that man should carry on in that seat, just because his Fernando Alonso is not a given. Those young drivers have been bloody brilliant so far, and they deserve a looking. Just because Fernando Alonso's got the name, Fernando Alonso and the history he comes with does not mean he's delivering the standard that we expect from him. And if he can't deliver that over the course of a full season anymore, and that is proven by the gap between O'Kong and Alonkso, let's say in another 15, 16 races time.

Then the person winning the F2 championship, if it is still one of their drivers, should get a shot at a seat. They should be given the chance. And it frustrates me how hard it is for some of these drivers to go from F2 to F1. It's a figure series for a reason, and yet so many drivers don't get the chance. Kalamilot, being one of them, the man that really should be. be having a seat over a certain somewhere else in the grid. So, yeah, if O'Con continues to underperform, and Aloncone continues to underperform, I don't see why

you should be Alonkso that gets swapped out, and you can say goodbye to Alonso in Formula One. Currently, he's not being up to the same standard. What do you reckon, Harry, do you think this might become a problem for Alpine? It already is a problem for Alpine. There's no chance that they're going to drop Fernando Alonzo, even if he has the worst season. if it carries on like this and gets even worse. It's not going to happen.

Don't see it happening. But their problem is that they signed him in the first place. And, you know, at the end of last year, you would have said, Alonza is going to start beating O'Conn straight away. That's not happened. O'Connor's absolutely stepped up. And he needed to, I think, because otherwise he'd be easily out of the seat by the end of this year.

And now they're giving themselves a headache. because by signing Fernando Alonzo and keeping Ocon on, now they've blocked up their seats because if Ocon's performing, they can't get rid of him, they're not going to get rid of Alonzo. This is a very short-term problem

because Alonzo is not sticking around for long, but even for next year, it's an issue. So yeah, they've really boxed themselves in by signing Fernando last year when they probably should have signed a younger driver, either in place of Okon, although now that would seem like a mistake, so I'm glad they didn't,

or in that empty Renault seat. Yeah, who'd you blame on that one? Cyril, he's gone, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, it's an issue for the Alpine guys, especially as Sam says, if Joe wins the title this year in F2. So it's a head scratcher. It's a head scratch of rail pain.

I mean, to look at the pair of them, I'll take Fernando Alonzo first of all. Firstly, yeah, he hasn't had a great season to this point. I feel like there should be a bit of leeway there because we are showing leeway for the likes of Daniel Riccardo and Sebastian Bessel who are coming into new teams and having a bit of difficulty adjusting. Alonzo is not only going from a new team. he hasn't raced in Formula One for a couple of years. So I do think that we owe him at least some more races this season for him to get back up to speed. Maybe this is it. Maybe Ocon is going to outperform him for the rest of this year.

But I'd like to see a few more races until I definitively believe that to be the case. And I think you're right in what you say. I don't think Alpine are going to get rid of him. And I don't think Alonso would allow them to get rid of him. So I think he will be there for the rest of this year. and next year as well. I don't think his seat would be up for grabs until the following year. And who knows, he might sign another contract, not sure.

To look at Esteban Ockon, I genuinely believe, with the exception of Lando Norris, Shao Leclair, Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen, there has not been a better driver this season than Esteban Ockon. I think he's been quality all year. And he has stepped up. You know, we all said at the beginning of this year, this is a big year for Esteban Okon. He struggled a bit last year against Daniel Ricardo after having been out of the sport for a year. Now he has to go up against another driver who is high caliber.

This time, not even just a well-respected driver. This time a world champion driver. And the onus is on him to prove himself as the established name within the team. To this point, he's done it. So fair play to him. Not an easy job. he's adjusted well to this point. I think when you're looking at the junior drivers that Alpine have,

you're essentially asking a few questions. You're asking, first of all, has Ocon reached his max potential? Is the Ocon that is driving around now the best Ocon we will see in F1? Or does he have room to grow? And if he does have room to grow, how much better will he be compared to what he is right now? You answer those questions, then you look at the junior drivers and you say, where are they at right now? And perhaps more importantly, what's the potential of these guys?

And you have to answer the question. Do Lungarjo or Piastri have more potential than what Ocon is showing right now? It's a tough one. It's always difficult to judge. And it would be a gamble if they picked up any of those three rookies and put them in over Estaban Ocon, considering how well Ocon is doing this year so far. Guan Yu-Zo, I think, you know, he's leaving the championship. I think right now he's probably the best of the three. At the same time, I think he probably has the lowest ceiling.

So I don't personally, I don't think that they should look to replace Ockon with Joe. I think Joe would do fine in F1. I think he'd do a good enough job, but I don't think he'd be better than what O'Con is. The other two is a bit of a bit more of a question mark. Lungard is still only 19 years of age. He could maybe have a third season in F2. I think Lungard, in terms of raw potential, has more the knock on, only just, but a bit more.

But I think he's a bit unrefined at the moment. And I mean that in the nicest way possible, because he has got extreme speed, this guy. I just think his overall race craftsmanship just needs a bit of work before he's ready for Formula One. And then Oscar Piastri, he could be the best of the bunch. He, you know, he has seriously impressed one, 1F3 at the first time of asking,

in his second place in F2 at the first time of asking. Bear in mind the last two drivers that were able to win F3 and F2 at the first time of asking in consecutive years, George Russell and Charles Leclair, they're looking pretty good right now. So if Oscar Piaastri does the same thing, it's very hard to not promote him to Formula One. We'll see how that goes,

but essentially, yeah, they just need to ask the question, where do they think Ocon is now? Can he improve? And where does the potential of these rookies stack up? I don't think Joe does quite stack up, despite me thinking that he is actually the best of the three at the moment. Lungard and Piastri, slightly bigger question marks there. Tough one, though. If they had a junior team, this would be a much easier thing to manage.

Bear in mind, Ferrari had this very similar situation last year with Eilat and Schwarzenman and Schumacher. and even with the resources of potentially Alpha Romeo and definitely has two teams they could potentially rely on to get drivers into seats, Callumilat still couldn't get a seat. So how is it going to fare with Alpine who don't have that option? Tough to see a way out. Let's move on to, well, we'll call it F1 higher and lower,

but like Valtrey Bottas, it's levelling up to version 2.0. Do we get a new theme song for it? That's the question. Depends how good the idea is. Oh, yeah, let's hear the idea first before I'm talking about a new theme song. I've got to come up with these on the spot. Yeah, fair enough. No, that's perfectly acceptable.

Yeah, to go back to what I said in the beginning instance, it is a slightly different version of F1 higher or lower, but it really isn't that much of an upgrade. F1 higher. is F1 lower Is sad faster Is Harry slower F1 higher

F1 lower F1 So in this instance I have got 10 things right here on the page So race wins, podiums, stuff like that And I'll give you the category

And you'll take it in turns to have a guess So, you know, it might be Lewis Hamilton wins. And Sam, I say it's your turn. You will say, hmm, I don't know. How many wins does Lewis Hamilton have? Hmm, maybe six. You'll probably have a better guess than that. But for the purposes of the example, yes, six.

Harry, it's then your job to say, higher or lower than Sam's guess. Is it higher than six or lower than six? And then if you're right on that, you win the point. if you're wrong, Sam wins the point. Ooh. I am willing to make up a new theme song for this. Wow. Big words. All right.

Who wants to go and guess first? I will go first, please. All right. Okay. So the first one, there are 10 overall. First one, Sam. How many race wins did Nigel Mansell take? and I just have to guess, can I be right or wrong here?

You can't be right or wrong. You basically just set the benchmark for how easy or difficult it is for Harry to get a point. So if you were to guess like zero, it makes it very easy for Harry to win. But if you're close or dead on, then I'll let you know if you're dead on and you can get your point here and there. But yeah. I'm, okay, I'm going to take a punt then. And I obviously want to make it hard for Harry because I want to win. Exactly.

I'm going to say Nigel Manxel won 29 times. All right, Sam saying that Nigel won 29 times. It isn't spot on. Sir Harry, did he have more

or fewer than that? Higher or lower? I'm going to go higher, Ben. You are right in saying higher. he had 31 race wins. So Harry takes the first point. We now go to Harry to guess this one.

So Harry, can you tell me how many race starts does Carlos Sines have as of the Monaco Bronco? Oh, that's tricky. Okay. I'm going to say, Carlos.

This is one of those. He's been around for that long. it's a trick. I'm going to say Carla Sines has 111 starts. It's a nice number 111

1-1. It's not dead on. So Sam higher or lower. Again, I'm glad that Harry got asked this one because I'm trying to work it through in my mind how many seasons he's been here,

what season he started, how many races we had in that. It's confusing because it's not like the old days where you have almost like the set same amount. 23, 17, 14. 412. The races are over the place at this point.

So I am going to say that Sykes actually is a bit more of a veteran than we expected, and I'm going to take a punt at higher, more race starts than what Harry said. It's correct. It is higher. It is a pretty good guess, 111, but it's 123 for Carlos Sides. Which means we are now at one all. Sam, can you tell me How many races has Spar Francochamp held in F1? For a while. Are we including classic as well as the common?

Including classic, yeah. How many have been around? I'm going to go with... How many years are former of only that? 72. I'm going to go with... It was 70 last year. Shut up.

It's been around a while. I'm going to go with 62. 62, Harry. Higher or lower. It's not spot on. I'm going to go lower. You are correct in saying lower.

53 overall for spa. Oh, these are all close. Yeah. some good guesses you're coming up with. So we go to Harry for this one to guess, I think your favourite driver after Jack Philnerve, Eddie Irvine. How many podiums did Eddie Irvine have in his career? Too many.

He's got it spot on, I'm afraid, son. I'll go for 11. 11 podiums. Are you just obsessed with the number one today, aren't you, Harry? That's it. I've worked it out. 11, higher or lower, Sam? Well, when Eddie held me in his arms and whispered, he whispered something in my ear,

and what he whispered to me was actually how many podiums he's had in Formula One. So I'm going to say, it was higher, more than 11. I mean, we've opened up the podcast by asking, does Sebastian Vettel get the respect he deserves? apparently Eddie Irvine doesn't get the respect he deserves because it is higher. He had 26, Harry. He had way more than 11. Have a day off.

Too many. Anyway, two all after four. Number five coming up for you, Sam. How many pole positions did Ralph Schumacher take in his career? Oh, Ralphie Malfi? I'm going to say... Definitely too many. No, not enough.

Not enough. I'm going to go for seven. It's not spot on. Did he have more than seven or less than seven, Harry? I'm going to go for lower. It's just lower six. Oh, very nearly spot on from Sam there.

A good effort. But we're bringing out all of the best drivers today, so we might as well carry that on. Harry, your one is to do with Yarno Trulli, Choo, all aboard. How many race starts did he have in F1? Oh, blimey. 234. 234 is the guess. Sam, higher or lower?

He was around a long time, was old Yarno. um he was around for a few years yeah just a couple he's got a lot of carriages on that wagon on that old steam locomotive of him um on the trilly train oh i'm gonna i think harry's been pretty close for that guess because i was thinking kind of low 200 i'm i'm gonna take a punt with higher

come on yano it's a good punt it's uh it wasn't a guess from you harry 234 wasn't a mile out 252 is the correct one there. Sam, over to you for this one. How many race wins has Williams taken? It's a shame it wasn't 750 really, wasn't it?

I'll give you a clue. It's lower than that. Ah! I can't give anything away to Harry. It's going to say something, then that they're giving something away because I know a definite about this. I think 108

108 108 race wins higher or lower for Williams as a constructor Harry it's not dead on

I don't actually know I think of a lower It's not lower It was a very good guess again actually is 114 So Sam takes the lead He's up four points to three

Harry, this is number 8 of 10. Mika Hakenan, how many race victories did he have? A flying fin. He had 22 victories. Oh, 22, higher or lower, Sam? I guess is I feel like I've been really good. I feel like we're better at guessing close to an arcs and we are ever getting an answer actually right,

which is classic late breaking, really. Enter us into a quiz where the rules are, you have to guess as close as possible to the answer without getting the answer. I think because of the fact he wasn't actually fallen on for as long as people think, well, he's on sabbatical. He is.

I'm going to say it was lower. Yeah, I should point out that this is, as of the Monaco Grand Prix, he might be adding to this tally as we speak. but it is lower. It's only just lower. It was 20 overall. So a good guess from Harry again.

But Sam gets the point. Harry, you must know that one internally. That was so close. Just like me, Khaqanen. Who doesn't? He beat the Michael 20 times. So fair play to him. Two to go.

Sam has a 5-3 lead. So one of these last two points, Sam, and you win overall. Giancarlo, Physiakela, how many podiums did he have some? I'm going to go with... Now, Physichella, apart from defending Thingair, is not something I know actually too much about the lovely man.

I don't think he ever did that well in Formula. Because he got the cars that he was so close to having, or he did achieve. I think 14, 14 podiums. higher or lower than that, Harry. I'll go lower. Well, we asked the question at the beginning of the show. Does Sebastian Vessel get the respect he deserves? We then ask the question, does any Irvine get the respect he deserves?

When the real answer is Giancarlo Fizakella doesn't get the respect he deserves. He has 19 podiums. He has that lower than 14, Harry. Oh, dear. So it does mean that Sam claims the overall win six points to three, but we do still have one more to go. So Harry, this last one is on you. Can you tell me the age of the oldest driver to start an F1 race?

That was their age when they started rather than their age now. Is it 47? Sam, higher or lower than 47? Now, I think, I don't know the days, but I actually think I know this stat. So I think it's higher. And I'm going to take a guess at being 55. I think it was Sharon, if I'm not wrong. You are not wrong on any of those counts.

Very well done. 95. The one stat he knows. 1955 at the age of 55, Louis Chiron at the Monaco Grand Prix. as Home Grand Prix as well. So yes, well done, Sam. 7-3 win to you, sir. Thank you.

Hopefully the Vestappen-Hamilton battle is as epic as that quizzing was. And hopefully you enjoyed the knowledge that we provided you guessed as close as we. Let us know if you guessed any closer, of course. I'm guessing, Sam, that because you've won here, your opinion of this version of F1 higher or lower has gone up dramatically.

Yeah, yeah, it'll be getting a whole production theme song. I will be working with Brian Tyler to make sure there's a full works put in place and we'll get debuted regularly, I think, to make sure we've got a real hard. It's F1 higher, is F1 lower? Is that faster? Is Harry slower?

F1 higher. F1 lower. F1. Well, stick around. for the next podcast because that one's going to be fun. Until then, Sam, if you wouldn't mind getting us out of here. Folks, it's been lovely to be back to be speaking to you again. We haven't got a race coming up,

but do let us know what you think is of asking Vettel. Is he overrated? Is he underrated? Is that four-time World Champ one of the best that there ever has been? There's some very controversial opinions floating around on the Twitter's fearing on the internet about that gentleman. Let us know if you agree with them or not. We'd love to hear from you.

Does Akon get to stay? You know, should there be red flagged deletion time for polio? what not or for qualifying. We'd love to hear all your thoughts. How did you do in the new format of F1 higher and lower? Stick around next week, but we will be previewing the back who's raw and free. And of course, we will be back for the race review as well.

All happening next week, which will be row a kick. In the meantime, I have been Samuel Say. I've been Ben Hockey. I've been Eddie Irvine. And remember, keep breaking late. Cast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you.