The Late Braking F1 Podcast - “Everything Was a Problem”: Our Reaction to Perez’s Red Bull Critique

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Ben and Sam react to Perez’s explosive recent interview, breaking down his candid Red Bull comments. They also analyse the Team Bosses’ and Drivers’ Top 10 lists for 2025, unpack Pat Symonds’ criticism of the FIA over the 2026 engine rules, and finish with a Top 5 of F1 Driver-Team moves... Want more Late Braking? Support the show on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and get: Ad-free listening Full-length bonus episodes Power Rankings after every race Historical race reviews & more exclusive extras! Connect with Late Braking: You can find us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Come hang out with us and thousands of fellow F1 fans in our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ server and get involved in lively everyday & race weekend chats! Get in touch any time at [e-mail] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. Welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Sam Sage and me, Ben Hocking. We've done a Wednesday episode, Sam. We're now here on a Sunday. And there aren't actually that many Sundays until we start talking actual F1. It's quite scary.

It's quite scary. The fact that there's already two. teams doing their filming run, which is, of course, part of that 200-kilometer pre-test rugging that they're allowed to do. They're out there literally as we speak. You know, Audi are going out that this weekend. Teams are already getting out there getting their shots, seeing so the start of the season is ever-drawing year, which is bizarre that we've only just had Christmas and New Year. It's coming already. Yes. And yet, here we are. I'm very much looking forward to bringing you another fantastic late-breaking episode. And if it's not

fantastic, don't sue us. And just a quick note as well, I know that those of you who would have listened to our best of episodes and indeed our Christmas message that went out would have heard from our very own Harry Ede. And we're looking forward to having Harry Ead back on the podcast very soon. Of course, some personal news has meant that he's had to take a couple of weeks away. And I'm sure he will be very thankful for a lot of messages that have come through on Patreon, on on Spotify, just wishing him and his family the best. And of course, the two of us share within that as well. Can't wait to have him back in a couple of episodes time.

And we'll just have to hold down the fort like we always do terribly. We'll try our best. And I will try to be as on the fence and gone shall long as possible, but can't make any guarantees. That man has a special way about doing those things. We miss you, Harry. Come back, see when you're ready. That first outro back is going to hit, isn't it? It's going to slap.

Whatever name he comes up with. Can't wait for it. We've got plenty of interesting Formula One topics to run through today. We're going to have a top five list to see out the show. We've got some comments from Pat Simmons, of course, formerly of the FIA, now part of Cadillac's venture into F1. We've got the team principles and the drivers handing out their top 10 drivers of 2025, our view on where they were right and maybe where they were wrong.

But we're going to start with Sergio Perez, of course, returning to Formula One in 2020. 26 after a year out, at least initially it was suspected he would continue on his contract with Red Bull, but he was booted out of the sport at the end of 2024 in favour of Liam Lawson at Red Bull. Some interesting comments have come to light. He was doing a podcast in Mexico. Firstly, he'd say, at Red Bull, everything was a problem. He said, if I was too fast, it was a problem, because, of course, it created a very tense atmosphere at Red Bull. If I was faster than Max, it was a problem. If I was slower than max, it was a problem. He said, chuckling away to himself. Later on in the interview, he actually says that 2025 might have been his best year in F1,

which is something that we've said before as well, which technically might actually be true based on how much both Lawson and Sonoda, of course, struggled in that car. What do you thoughts on his comments here? And do you believe him? It's a really interesting interview, both what he's saying and the timing of the interview as well, of course. It's, I think, it was recorded late November or December time, but it's only been released now. So it does make it sound like as he enters a new year, he's still

bemoaning his relationship with Red Bull, but it's probably a little bit more old school than what we're expecting it to be. This comes probably a very favourable time for Sergio Perez to come out and say these things, whether you believe him, whether you buy the story, whether it is as dire as he was making it seem. He's

in a really good spot. People love Sergio. He's as popular as ever. He's coming back into the sport with a brand, team. He's spearheading this incredibly exciting venture under Cadillac. And all of the management that were once telling him that he was the problem at Red Bull are no longer there. Every single top member, senior member that was involved in that relationship alongside that kind of Max for Staff and Sergeo Perez partnership has gone. You know, your weaklies, your horners, your Adrian Nui's, they're not there anymore. They've all moved on for one reason or another.

So there's almost not really any way to have a rebuttal to have someone to go up against him and kind of say, well, actually. Sergio, what you're about? That is what happened. He's speaking in very favourable terms right now. And I do think this isn't coming out of nowhere. This is no smoke without a fire. I imagine it was a very difficult atmosphere. We know how tough the second seat in Red Bull. And Red Bull as a culture can be, he mentions in that interview how Heggstrong you have to be to get through that every single time when he says the whole team are against you, which is a very bizarre atmosphere to think about. but with the project being so for Stappan orientated

it does feel like if you were to going anyway both too slow or too fast around Maxer Stappan then you're causing an issue you're kind of disrespecting the golden child although the amount of times he was going too fast a little bit questionable it was definitely the more too slow factor that was kind of more common all those times so I can fall drowning under the time so he was too fast

and I will remember end of montage You are a great formula long driver, Sergio, Peres. I am really, really brilliant, underrated, I think. But let's not go too far down the road or how exceptionally fast you were against Max for staffing in that relationship. I did like that comment. I do think he's being relatively truthful with this. He's got a few comments here where I think you can accuse him

of exaggerating certain points. And if in his shoes, I guess why wouldn't you? But I don't think there's any reason for him to outright lie about any of this. You know, Red Bull, that portion of his career is done and dusted. Unless something really weird happens, he's not going back there. And, of course, the next portion of his career is settled. Like, he's moving on to Cadillac. He's starting a very exciting project there.

There's not really career-wise any reason to be that way. So I would, I'd be inclined to say most of this is truthful. The trajectory of his Red Bull career, and of course that lasted four seasons, I think it probably backs up his claim because at least initially, things were improving. So the beginning of 2022 was better than all of 2021, I would say. He wasn't too far, too far off the pace in 2021. His pace deficits of Vastappan in 21 was pretty much the same as Bottas's deficit to Hamilton at Mercedes. Of course, that being the battle of that season.

Going up against Max Vastappen, statement of the century, pretty tough. It's not easy. But you would expect someone of Sergio Perez's experience, it will get a little bit. It shouldn't get tougher over time. If anything, it should actually get easier. And it was kind of going that way until we get to 2022. First seven races of that season. he is only 15 points behind Max Verstappen.

Could you imagine like Yuki Sonoda, I know he didn't start the year. Imagine after seven races, Sonoda was 15 points behind Verstappan. We keep praise upon him. We would heap praise upon him. 100%. And then the rest of the season sort of tails off. 2023 was a little bit similar in the first four races. The Stappan has won two Grand Prix.

Perez has won two Grand Prix. Perez has won the only sprint so far in that year. Pretty even. But I think Vastappen is like a... I think I remember saying that we might think he might take the lead of the championship in the next Grand Prix. That's how well he was doing. Yeah, exactly, because he was six points down on Vastappan going into that Miami GP

where Perez did actually hold the lead. And we were saying if it's a one to in Perez's favour, he would lead the championship. He doesn't beat Max Fassappen for the rest of the year. Like, and I'm not saying that, you know, they kept development equal across both cars and they had as much input from Perez as they did Vostappen. I'm not saying Perez would have beaten Vostappen for the championship, but I think he certainly would have kept it more competitive than what he did. So, yeah, I think overall, he's probably got a point in there.

He does also, as part of this, repeat a claim that Red Bull, and this is a claim that he says comes directly from Christian Horner, is made for Max. The team has made for Max, and they're only running two cars, because legally they're required to within the regulations of the sport. Do you believe that? And then also, do you think Red Bull

have been validated in that approach in any way? I think I believe the overall sentiment that he's relaying. I don't think I believe it in the way that he has said it. I don't think that Red Bull actually do want to run one car. There are two championships. I think they very much do want to win the Constructors Championship. And as we saw in 2021, with the way that Sergio Perez performed, it allowed Max Verstappen to be a part of that championship fight right at the last race in Abu Dhabi

because of how good Perez was a defending against Lewis Hamilton. And if you're only running one car, it's not possible. Max Verstaffa can't do everything on his own. He's not literally superhuman. He's a bloody incredible racing player. Give it a year. You might be. Maybe that was cutting off and he'll raise two cars on his own.

Who knows? If he didn't have a kid and they would have gone down that room. Maybe the kids could do it. I'm sure it's got enough talent in his little finger in comparison to us. But my point here is there is major benefit to having two cars. You know, you look at the relationships beforehand. And one, two relationships, by that, I mean driver one and driver two relationships. Go back a long way.

Schumacher and Barakello, for example, the way that they were so regularly worked together, not always through the pleasure of Barakello, understandably. But, hey, it benefiting a lot where you had one driver that was willing to sacrifice themselves. We saw it regularly with how Botassan Hamilton would perform. You know, Bottas would so regularly get out the way for Lewis Hamilton, hold someone up, take a different strategy. It does have major benefits. So whilst I see the point he's saying here, I don't think Christian Hogger would have ever have actually said, I wish we could only run one car.

That doesn't seem very viable or sensible. But I get the point he's making. Yeah, it doesn't make complete sense to me either because, and I'm unsure whether this is Red Bull specific, but it just doesn't quite add up with the fact that the Constructors' Championship is the true representation of how you operate as a team. If you win the Drivers' Championship in a season and you don't win the Constructors' Championship, there are obviously a lot of praise goes to whoever has won that driver's title, but then a lot of questions go to the team of, well, how couldn't you have also won this title?

or what went wrong beyond the great performance of, in this instance, Max Verstappen. It doesn't make a great deal of sense. And of course, if you just look in terms of money, that's where it comes from. The Constructed's Championship, where you place makes up a good amount of what your overall earnings are for the year from the FIA. So I don't quite understand why they would be so focused on the driver's championship and not the Constructors' Championship unless, and we know Red Bull perhaps. more than anyone else, it's very much marketing focused when it comes to the sport and why

they're even involved. If Max Verstapp and being associated with Red Bull is enough marketing wise to give them that boost, then maybe there's something in that. But I'm kind of a line with you, Sam, that it just doesn't, it doesn't really add up. No, this feels like the kind of story where I do believe, again, no smoke without a fire. I'm sure Christian Hall are at that point in that conversation, probably say something on the lines of, I wish we could have two Max Verstappans. Something like that. And Sergio Perez is interpreting it as the second seat is essentially in the way until Max Verstappen gets what he was.

You know what Red Bull? Kind of think you're justified to think that way. What do you think, Ben? You think that all the effort going into the building everything with Max Verstappen is justified over the last few years? No. Okay. This is interesting.

It's tough because Vastappen has obviously won four consecutive championships, nearly won five. but I have to ask myself the question. I feel like this is the question Red Bull should ask themselves as well. Would Max Verstappen have lost any of those four titles if the car was slightly easier to drive and ever so slightly slower? I don't think he would have lost any of those titles,

particularly 22, 23, 24, maybe... Maybe 21, sure. But I just don't... But could you have also then gained a Constructors' Championship as a result of Perez being more competitive in, say, 2024 is probably the main one. I think you probably could have done. So whilst I understand why they do it,

because Vastappan is ridiculously talented, he is, in my view, the best driver in the sport, fairly comfortably at the moment, they have just created an environment where they are so dependent on him that I just don't think it's beneficial for them going forward. Like, compare them to McLaren. If McLaren were to lose Lando Norris or Oscar Piastri tomorrow,

unexpectedly, they've decided to turn around, no, I'm done here, I'm going in somewhere else. It wouldn't be great, but they would manage because they would still have whoever the other driver is and how good their car has been over the last two years, they'd get someone else in pretty good. They'd work it out. They'd be fine. If Red Bull lost for Stappan tomorrow, what on earth is that team? It's just, I think they've created such a Verstappan heavy dynamic that it's difficult to get out of it. Especially when a story like Toto Wolf skiffing around comes along and you think

the staffing has interests elsewhere. You know, he's driving, I think he's driving a Mercedes in his GC3 campaign. I think that's part of the relationship that they've got going there. It's evident that he has an interest in racing outside of Formula One, clearly. Mercedes has the ability to pay him whatever he needs to be paid and offer him a contract that allow him to race both in F1 and be comfortable in other specs that he might want to take part in. So they lose him. They are then a team that can only score 70 points a year if both driver one and two match what

Yuki-Singola did last season. And you could claim that, okay, if Vestappan went to Mercedes and let's say it was George Russell who moved over to Red Bull, you can say, well, we're replacing quite a lot of Vastappan's points with Russell's points. And that might well be true, but you don't know that. Like we've had the instances of Daniel Ricardo moving to McLaren, Hamilton moving to Ferrari. It's never guaranteed that a great driver moving to another great team is necessarily going to work out. You don't know that until you see it.

So it's risky. It is risky. What did you make of the comments at the end of that interview? What about the second driver? Christian Hong is saying that he knows and they're going to go through a lot of drivers. It's funny you should say that. And I won't show this on camera because you won't be able to read it.

But the next thing I've got written in my notes is that full quotes because it is absolutely wild. Sergio Perez talking to Christian Horner and I'm assuming he's paraphrasing some of this. But he says, I remember when I was in my farewell with Christian, I said to him,

what are you going to do when it doesn't work out with Liam? Well, there's Yuki. And what are you going to do when it doesn't work out with Yuki? We have lots of drivers. I said to him, well, you're going to go through them all. And he said, yes, I know. Oh, it's savage, isn't it?

That is a brutal response to a question like that. Good Lord. How as a team prince? And again, we don't know if it was said exactly the way that Sergio Perez has retold the story. But even if the wording is slightly different, how is a team principle? It sounds like you've even not tried to fix the issue or just given up. just to admit that, yeah, we're going to run through all these drivers because we don't have a choice.

Like, we'll just use the next one and the next one. Yeah, it's unsustainable. It's a model that clearly Christian Horner, when he was in charge of Red Bull, was very happy to sit there and say, Max Verstappen's our guy, he's where our success features, and every other person that comes along is cannon fodder.

They're doing it because, hey, they might pick up 80 points that gets us over the line for the constructors. That's all they were to Christian Horner in that second seat. if what Paris is saying is only 75% true, right? The sentiment doesn't really change at that point, really. So it's a pretty shocking statement. It's one thing to have an unsustainable model. It's another thing to be okay with that unsustainable model. Like, I'm not saying that it's great, but as long as you're actively trying to fix it, okay, this just sounded like Christian Horner is accepting of the situation and he's just going to, okay, when Sunoda's done, we'll bring in,

Adjah and when Hadjar's done, it'll be Limblud. And when Limblud's done, we'll bring in some seven-year-old Carter that we haven't even heard of yet. And it just feels like this, you know, conveyor belt that they don't even want to try and get them off the conveyor belt. No, it answers our question that we have actually been asking for six, seven years now at least of we're going to go into adapt the car to at least slightly benefit the second driver. And the answer while Christian Horner was in charge was they aren't. It was never on their radar to make that change. Yeah.

Final question before we move on to our second topic, Sam. Sergio Perez did also claim towards the end of this interview that he feels like Red Bull had the team to dominate for the next 10 years when he was still there. And obviously, Christian Horner would have still been there. Hall of Fame of Rob Marshall would have still been there as well. Do you think there's anything in that? I think it's bigging himself up a little bit. I can't lie at this point.

And the statements are all going to be positive reflecting. He's come out of a difficult period. He's had a year out. He's coming back into the sport. He's talking to a Mexican podcast, of course, and his native tongue, his own home country. It's going to ring positive for Sergio Perez. But this was the statement for me that made it,

okay, you're talking about how good Sergio Perez is here. It was already proven that you didn't have a team to dominate over 10 years. You've already lost Constructed's Championships. You were already struggling to gain race wings at this point. when you were even before you're even out the door. So whilst I think it's an admirable, if not overly confident statement to make, I do think it's a little bit false and already started to be disapproven before he was even out the door. Yeah, I think it's an exaggeration again.

I don't think it's untrue to say that they had a really solid base in terms of the employees and the drivers there that they could build on and certainly win more championships going forward. and if you want to say that even in 10 years' time, if they'd won six or seven of those championships, sure. But to say just outright, we had a position to dominate for 10 years, you don't know what the regulations are going to be. That's going quite far into the future. So I understand the point, but it's just maybe a bit too far with that one.

I'm really excited to see Sergio Perez come back into the sport in 20206 at a team like Kagalak, at a team that hopefully high, harnesses both his and Valerie Bottas's real attributes and gives them a car that works for them because he has always been a phenomenal driver. I think Red Bull was a tricky time. He acts of great performances, but I hope we can really see that Perez

from 2017 through to when he moved to Red Bull because he acts on electric drives then. Yeah, 2020 Racing Point, Sergio Perez. Give me more of that. That's our rain wing. Yeah, man. And I can't wait for many reasons. teammate wars next month

will we deciding who we think all of the 11 teams which driver will come out on top Perez versus Bottas tricky that is tricky yeah that is tricky run DMC second first

they did respect run DMC let's take our first break on this episode on the other side we're taking a look at the top 10 lists for 2025 drivers from the drivers themselves

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label. Back everyone to the second part of today's episode here on this Sunday. Thanks so much for making us of your day. It's very much appreciated. We don't like to pick favorites here on the late breaking podcast, but those of you that stick with us through January, you're the real MVP's. You're all right by me. Yeah. Now, something that happens every single year, team principals and the drivers get together and anonymously fill out their top 10 drivers of the season. And it's usually a good take up on this. There's usually one or two drivers, one or two team principles that don't take part, but more than enough to get a good read of where the groups of people think the drivers have been in 2025.

Fairly similar lists this year. So the team principles have got Max Verstappen as their driver of the year, Lando Norris's second place, and then Piastri third, Russell 4th, Alonzo 5th, and then Seins, Lecler, Behrman, Hajar and Holkenberg rounding out the top 10. The drivers also have Max Verstappen as the driver of the season, also. have Lando Norris in second. The first change then comes third place, George Russell, fourth place, Oscar Piastri,

fifth, Lecler, sixth again is Carlos Seins, seventh for Lonzo, eighth Albon, ninth Behrman, 10th, Hajar. Let's break this one down a little bit, Sam, let's start with the top four, because again, the top two are unchanged

across both lists, but there is a slight difference in that the team principals have Piastri ahead of Russell. Did you, do you think there was any surprise at all in that top four? No, the, those four games, I think

I was expecting the whole way through. I am surprised that for the team principles, Lecler hasn't featured closer to that top four. You know, fifth I guess would have been five. Seventh for me, for us a bit far back. We'll get on to this a bit. But those are the four that I was realistically expecting to be featured with, you know,

Lecler as possibly the one jumping up there. I am surprised that Russell is at the bottom of the four. I know that Piastri won multiple Grand Prix, as in Norris, as you've just happened. But those three, got their due at some point throughout the season, I felt like Russell had to slug away for a lot of that season.

The car wasn't ever really there. The fact that he picked up so many podiums, got two victories, and was so clear and above any competition behind him for so much of the season. Fourth is fine, but I thought he might have featured slightly higher in the team principals and not just the drivers. Yes, I wasn't particularly surprised about the top four either. Well, I thought it would be a top five rather than a top four, but apparently a couple of the team principals decided to get flout drunk before doing this.

But again, we'll talk about the Clur's position in a moment. I think Max Verstappen was a fairly obvious, unanimous driver of the season, certainly when we did this exercise, Sam, before the Christmas break, and many other inferior content creators will have also done lists as well. I've seen Max Verstappen at the top of nearly all of them. His last 10 races were close to flawless. Great performances early on in the year as well to take wins at Suzuki, certainly stands out, Imola.

That was also a very good one. I think he had the most wins and the most polls for the year as well. And Red Bull looked poor enough, at some points during the season, but particularly pre-season to the point where I went out on a limb in saying that Vastappen was going to win the driver's championship. and there was a real debate as to whether he would even be top five in the championship. And he went far better than that.

So I think Vastappen was a clear first place. What do you think about Lando Norris in P2? He's the driver's champion. So you would imagine he should be up there somewhere. I think that's why he's in P2 because he's the driver's champion. He had the best car comfortably throughout the whole year. We know that McLaren was a rocket. It was a real solid car.

and the fact that he ended up beating Piastri, there's a little part of me that thinks, you know, that's a tale of two halves. Norris refound his form. He managed to pick up where he was struggling. And in that big part of the season, he was struggling against Oscar Piastri. He was like a big of a role,

like a really good balance where he picked up multiple wings, was on polar all the time, holding off the competition well. And then as Piastri hit that down spiral, kind of after Monza, it's like Norris filled the space that Piastri had taken up. Now that's no slight on Piastri and no over praise on Norris and vice versa.

But I think they were very similar in their seasons as you over-analyze the whole year. And that's why they ended the season so close together. It's what, 15 points between them come the end of the year. That's why. So this is why I thought Russell might be higher, genuinely, because I thought with inferior machinery, he put it on really brilliant performance.

Actually, the fact that Norris allowed it to go down, Ampia Street, allowed it to go down to the final race of the season with a step and back close to them. I thought was maybe interesting that Norris was, in second place. But hey, he had a great year. And I see the merit to his season as well. I was fine with Norris in second. Just I do think his consistency across the year was impressive. And what he did towards the end of the year, if you put maybe Qatar to one side, what he did towards the end of the year, to see off two drivers in the form of Oscar Piaastri, who he would

never have a car advantage over, but had a points deficit too. And to go up against Max Verstappen, looking for five championships in a row. to see off both of those drivers to claim a championship win, it's probably understated how impressive that is. So I was fine with Lando Norris and second. I have seen Sam some opinions out there that even though Oscar Piastri, in the same car as Lando Norris,

didn't win the driver's championship, that he was the better of the two. Any merit to that? Depends what part of the season you're looking at. If you're looking up to the Dutch Grand Prix, I see entirely where you're coming from. But unfortunately, the season doesn't stop one race after the summer break. There's a what, 10 races after that yet to go? They're very similar.

And that's why they finished the year, very similar. And there are highs and lows to both their seasons. Norris was unlucky that he had a mechanical failure in Zanvort, and that meant that he ended up being a whole seven points behind. He was in second place at the time. The crash in Canada entirely on Norris, for example. not Piastri. Yet Piastri's downward form

meant that he was struggling. It's hard to split them between the whole season and I think they're very, very similar overall in their rating. I think that's why when we dig out ratings, they were pretty much right next to each other for all of our points.

I would have better to tell you outright, comfortably that one was better than the other across the year. They both had significantly brilliant parts and they both had bits where they needed to improve. Yeah, I don't think it's crazy to think that Piastri had the better season. I personally think Lando Norris was marginally better,

but I don't think it's crazy to think Piastri was the better of the two. I think, though, what would you say with, they both had one silly buggers' DNF across the board, right? They had Baku for Piastri and Canada for Lando Norris, which kind of cancel each other out. And outside of that, the only mechanical DNF was the one going to Lando Norris, what happened at Zamvort. So if you think about those lost points and it was looking like it was going to be 18 points lost at that point, the fact that he's then also put 15 points on Piastri by the end of the year

does probably indicate that it was Norris, who was marginally better. But I do think, and I'm not sure there's a neat way to say this, but I think Piastri was better for longer. Like, if you were to go race by race, who was better, Norris or Piastri, and just put a tick next to whichever one it was, I think Piastri probably outperform Norris at more races. The problem is when Piastri wasn't on it, his lows were lower. Yeah, yeah, you're right and saying that the gap between them, when Piastri is the better of the two, Norris is only one step behind him. Yeah.

But when Norris was the better of the two, Piastri is four steps behind him. And that is where he fell apart, unfortunately. That stretch, as we mentioned in the back end of the season, when Piastri was winging, Norris more regularly not was second or third. When Norris was swinging, Piastri was fifth or sixth, and that's where it fell apart for him. Moving on to Ferrari, and no appearance for Lewis Hamilton, which didn't really...

The first time ever. Is that true? First time he's never been inside the top 10 from team principles. Wow. I can't say even with that, I can't say it was overly surprised at his lack of an appearance on this list. Yeah.

I have to admit, I was very surprised that Shao LeClau was just P7. Yeah, I'm with you. Entirely with you. I think the driver's got it right, putting him in P5. I personally have him higher, but I think P5 is a perfectly respectful

place for Shal LeCler to be. It's difficult to judge that Ferrari. we saw how awful it could be at times. And when you've got the likes of Russell Norris Piastrial fighting for that P2, I have no issues. No qualms with the Clur being fifth. But the Clare seventh behind Sikes and Alonso is... What are we doing here, Matt?

What are you smoking, lads? Have you all got around in a little circle and rolled a doobie? Oh, is it a joke? Is it a joke to annoying Joy Elkin? Is Frig Fragie Vass wound you all up? What's going on? Everyone needs a pre-Christmas doobie. That was seven.

How was happening? Do me with the principles? Sorry, Charles. You've been mugged off again here. Yeah. A lot of science had brilliant moments throughout the year. And even in our own rankings, we both put both of those guys in our top ten. But LeCleur behind her, what's the poor lad got to do to get a little respect around it?

A little respect. Come on. Arefa Franklin is cooling out. What does he have to do? It's about Charles LeClaire, that song. Damn right, it was. Many years before he was born. I do think this was maybe slightly influenced by Fred Vassert not being one of the team principles that took part in this

and maybe that's what saw him knocked a couple of spots but this was how can you have watched that season with respect to the guy how can you watch that season and conclude that Carlos Sines was better than Charles LeClaire I don't understand like the first eight races of the season LeClaire had one bad race now admittedly it was was a very, very, very bad race. That was Silverstone. But that was, I think, the only one. It was also the most tumultuous race across the entire season. If you cannot have a sinker, it makes sense to have it there. It's not like that Ferrari was very good in wet conditions anyway, but he picked up seven podiums in a certified tractor. He managed to, and this is a staty,

I think you said on the last episode, Sam. He was beaten by Lewis Hamilton three times all year. he outqualified him 19 times across the season. I know you might say, well, we haven't seen the best of Lewis Hamilton at Ferrari. He hasn't, he's not become me. Like, he can still drive to out. Yeah, Lewis Hamilton does not equal Ben Hocking, just to confirm. Yeah, he put the four fastest car on pole in Hungary. Like, what do you want from him?

So, well, I'd massively disagree with Ben. Yeah, silly, silly, a bunch of buggers, you old two principles. What did you make of, to speak about Carlos Seines again, he was ahead of Alex Albin, of course, behind in the driver's championship, only just, but ahead in the rankings. What did you make of that? Yeah, I actually agree with this, and I made the same judgment call in my list of drivers when we ranked them as well. I think it's incredibly close.

I think they basically can split the season in half, and you can say that one was better at the first half and the other was better at the other end. Unfortunately, with the way that the season played out, I think Albin got the slightly better rubber the green when the Williams was a bit puncture against a lot of its competitors and the more frantic races where positions were up for grabs at the first half of the season. It started to

you know the whole you've won from pole that many times in a row. It was so difficult to progress at the later into the season that we got. And that's where Scyx was at his best. But Sikes had some brilliant, brilliant performances, two Wodiums of course, which meant that he took, that's it, thank you folks, the Wodium.

He excelled brilliantly. The Qatar was fantastic, of course. For me, Sikes had to adapt to a whole new team, a whole new environment, new culture. This was Album's backyard. Sikes came in and he did a brilliant job and he went, we're making a thanks down the middle. After this is mine now. And I don't think Alba's got a case to say, no, it's not. So that's why I put him above.

But I was surprised that the team principals have got him in sixth. And Albin doesn't feature in the top 10 at all. You know, I don't agree with every position in the drivers, but it is far closer to how I would have put my top 10 than what. the team principles of that. I do think maybe recency bias has helped out Carlos Sines a little bit

with these rankings because the second half of the year for sure Carlos Sines was better. Even so, for everyone, great race, there was another bad one,

I think, in there, even in that second half of the year, because you had podiums at Baku and Qatar had a great race at Las Vegas, but he also had

that spin in Mexico that was awful. And he also, right in front of our very eyes, made an error at Austin. So for every one great race, there was one not so great race as well. I think the score line was fairly accurate. I had Alex Albon very marginally ahead of Carlos Sines,

but I don't think there's much in it. I actually think the score line is quite close to how it should have been. Albon, you know, like Sines, had some pretty high highs earlier on in the year. Yes, they weren't podiums, but there were quite a few top five finishes. in there and just had some howlers towards the end of the year. It still doesn't seem quite right that the last time Alex Alburn scored in a main race

was Monza. Yeah, that's crazy, isn't it? So in that both polioed for science came after that point. It's pretty crazy. I'd have had both of them in the top 10, but not as high as sick. I think that was a bit too high. Alonzo's only four positions away from where he should have been. They've put him fifth, but in reality, of course, he should have been first.

Yeah, you always get to rule that off every season until he retires and then we'll make a in-memorium position for him, which is always above everyone else. I assume that's my opinion of where Fernando Alonzo should be. It's usually the internet tells me what my opinion is, so I might as well just go along with what they say. Yeah, famously. Good. I'm glad we're all in agreement.

Good. Both team principals and the drivers had Olly Behrman as the rookie of the season, albeit only just, both of them had a position ahead of Isaac Hadja. interesting one? It is interesting. I think this is recently biased. You don't know if you've listened to our driver's reviews. I had Hajar as my rookie of the season.

Stan Bybat, thought he was brilliant the whole way through the year. Yeah, cut the tough performances where the car slumped. But I think Behram really came into his own in the last 10, and that's great. But I don't think he did it throughout the whole year. He had some real ups and some real downs, especially in qualifying, where he found himself on the back row quite a few times. So whilst I do believe they should be right next. switch other and if you have a lot of them right next to which other they should be very close for me

i do think that hajart edges it but i'm not going to i'm not going to overly judge them by having someone like bareman just in front yeah it was close i had bareman just in front but i there wasn't much in it at all the more interesting one for me because i do feel like they were the two best rookie drivers there were quite a few shouts in other top 10 lists not from um the drivers and team principles for Kimmy Antonelli, which I don't get it. No, and we had this in our comments on social media and in the podcast comments. I've looked at Autosport and in both the Autosport rankings and their Reader's rankings, he's in the top 10.

He's good. And there's a lot to come from Kimmy Antenely. And towards the back end of the season, he had three or four performances in a row where I was really quite impressed with him. But three or four performances in a road doth make him a top 10 driver of the season. We can't ignore that he was further away from George Russell than Lewis Hamilton was from Shao LaCleur,

and Lewis Hamilton, rightfully, did not make any top 10 lists. And Mercedes has a better car across the whole season. Yeah. Again, he had some good performances towards the end of the year, some solid ones at the beginning of the year, too. But I don't quite get the argument of him being top 10. And for those who are going to immediately shout us, yes, the expectations of Hamilton and Antigali are obviously different, but not so wildly ends of the worlds that you think, hang on a minute, we can select Kimi Antigli do whatever he wants. Yeah.

But then like you get, these lists are just purely who have been the top 10, not necessarily have they done better than we think they were going to do at the beginning of the year. Otherwise, you know, you put Isaac Adjadjar top three, maybe. Like, you, I know that there's some expectations based in his. here. But yeah, he had an okay first season. They're going to be wrong. But to be 150 points or so behind your teammate and to be a top 10 driver, I thought was odd. Yeah, for me, there are drivers like Pierre Gasley, Holgerberg. Those people should be spoken about first before Antigella gets a shot on the top 10. I think they did a really great job with a car that was far, far inferior. Yeah, always a good one to look at in one of these early January episodes.

Of course, one of our Patreon episodes that we did just before the Winterbray, we did it in December, we went through, we didn't do 10 drivers, that's boring. We went through every single driver that took part in the 2025 season and ranked them from 21st to 1st. So if you are a Jack Dewan Stan and you think he might have made the top three, don't watch it, you'll be disappointed. Because he's made the top one. Yeah, boy.

Yeah. If you're anyone else, please consider subscribing to Patreon and give me that a listen. Let's take our second break on this episode on the other side. It's Pat Simmons. Yay! The Simmerizer! Back, everyone. It's time, but we were very animated about this before the break,

and I'll be honest. I don't know why. Pat Simmons. The Simmerizer! Pat Simmons, early January just hits, man. Obviously, that's what I've been waiting for. All jang. It's dark, it's rainy, it's wet.

What gets me out of bed in the morning? Pick up, Pat Simmons. It just awakened something inside you, don't it? Like a warm cup of tear in a cold morning. Pat Simmons in your belly. Hope you, hope you well, Pat. Stupid show. There's a reason for talking about him.

Formula One's incoming 2026 power unit regulations are the result of too many compromises, according to Pat Simmons, who was F1's former technical director. Simmons was instrumental in shaping the 2022 chassis regulations, but also contributed to the development of the revised power unit rules before leaving Formula One management to join Cadillac's emerging F1 project. He has since acknowledged that his decision to depart FOM was partly driven by the FIA's increasing influence over technical regulations.

He said it was a little bit of a frustration that FOM were getting less and less involved than the regulations. Very much the FIA and things like the 26 power unit was not what I wanted it to be. The FIA made too many concessions to what the teams wanted for the 26th regulations. When we did the 2022 car, we listened to what the teams were saying, but we ruled them with a firm hand. We said, OK, we're listening to you, but we're actually going to do this. We took some of their input.

With the 26 power unit, the FIA said it wanted to involve the manufacturers more. Unfortunately, I think it's like when you get a committee to design a racehorse, you end up with a camel, which... Gold like, water like, sensational. Former Renault employees with like... Similees, metaphor. Like, they do a good job. They are great.

Maybe that's why they get the job. Maybe we should be Renault employees. You already are. Yeah, I often forget that. Do you understand the viewpoint of Mr. Pat Simmons? I had to read further to really grasp where he was coming. Yeah, just the camel line. Yeah.

Where are you coming from? Like, it's a tricky world to being, this is, from the FIA, from Pat Simmons, from the governing body that are trying to come up with these new regulations when it's about engines. They've got a lot of mouths to feed, so to speak, you know, another analogy there. Renault, give me a call. You need all the help you can get. And where I'm coming from here is they need to think about all the stakeholders that they're dealing with.

They need to think about the current teams, the drivers. They need to think about new teams. They need to think about the fans watching the sport, sponsorships that might want to be involved, costs, things like that, you know. It's so many different people to please. There's so many different avenues to go down that you are in a tricky situation of if you let everyone trying too many cooks, put to all the ingredients thing, you might come up with a really gross cake. But if you let one really good chef come up with it, you might come up with a really really tasty cake that only pleases one person. It's a really tricky place to being. So I get what

he means when you read through this article and it says, look, we're trying to make a race sauce, but we've come out with a camel. They're trying to please too many people at once is what I think they're trying to do there. And they haven't gone down the avenue in his mind that he wanted to go down. It's a bit half-assed. It's a bit kind of, yeah, we kind of got there, but it's not exactly where I wanted to be. So I can't get where he's coming from. What were your thoughts? I understand where he's coming from as well, as soon as I managed to detach the camel comments, because what's wrong with camels? I want more camel comments. Nothing wrong with camels. Sure. But I understood where he was coming from, because we've long said that,

um, apologies, folks. Kirstie's just left, and I think that might have been the overuse of the camel. She's sick of it. Sick of the camel, quote, Kirstie McGregor. We've, yeah, we've long said the teams and the FIA have too much power. And he's not saying they shouldn't have any input, but he is saying that they shouldn't have this sort of veto practice that they seem to have at the moment. And there seems to be, there seem to have been a priority of consensus, which is dangerous when all the teams are, and understandably, fighting for themselves.

All they want to do is make the best of F1 for them. They do not care about the rest of the sport. They do not care about the rest of their competitors. And nor should they, that's not their job. That is the job of those overseeing the sport. Do you think that the teams and the FIA have had too much influence on these regulations? We've said this so many times that in other sports, you don't have all of the managers or the owners sitting down with the governing body going,

change this rule, make this rule. It doesn't happen. And Formula One is so unique when it comes to that kind of governance that the owners of the sport and the rule setters of the sport sit down with the 10, now 11 have leading members of that and go, do you like that rule? And they go, no, you're not having that rule. It's a very odd exchange of power, and I've always been adamant that the team should not have that much power. They should not get that much say.

I think they should almost get a rule set where they're limited to a single veto or something like that throughout a certain period of time, and they have to choose when they use it. It just feels like because they have commercial interest outside or Formula One, you know, with their car creation or whatever it might be, that if they don't think it immediately benefits them and they don't think they're going to make a profit essentially of what the product they end up developing is, they veto it and we lose regularly what could be very interesting projects or diversification. Simmons goes on to talk about power generation from the front axle which isn't going to be part of what goes on.

And that's something that could be very interesting and creating more powerful cars that can harvest more energy that's been removed from the sport because of how the teams have vetoed things. So I do think they've always had a little bit too much power in the way the sport is governed and I think it's played out here. Yeah, I agree with that.

I just, it's difficult to once you've started to give the team's power, it's difficult to roll that back. And to be fair to F1, the way that the sport is kind of set up now where there is a little bit more interest from manufacturers based on the simplicity of the sport, at least relative to what you used to,

I'm not calling F1 simple, just to make that very clear. So 50 years ago, it is simple. Exactly, yeah. Anyone could do it. But yeah, maybe the fact that other manufacturers would be willing and quite easily able to replace who's there at the moment. Maybe that could be a way in which they draw the power back from the teams. I don't know.

It's almost like the teams in particular want to take advantage of their independence financially, whilst also almost having like the interest in the sport as if it was a franchise. Yeah. And it's not. It's almost like the treating it that way. I kind of forget that Formula One is owned by Formula One and not by them. Yes. A little bit, you know.

And I think in their minds, they do have a vested interest and the best interest possible for Formula One. But each team has a different version in their mind of what that interest actually should be. Yeah. I guess you could say as well that this simplification hasn't allowed all of the manufacturers that we would want into the sport, who maybe have that initial interest. of course Cadillac, the only reason they ended up being there was because the Andretti organisation initially weren't coming with the backing of someone like a General Motors.

But we know that Porsche, for example, on and off relationship or not an on and off relationship, but an on and off interest. Yes, it was kind of like maybe they will, maybe they won't. And ultimately the answer was they won't. So, yeah, we're in a really privileged position that Formula One because it's got more manufacturers than we've had for a long time. And that's great. That shows that we're in a really good position.

We're moving forward in a really good position. It's not perfect by any means. I'd love Porsche to join. There's another of other manufacturing giants. I'd love to be in the sport. BMW, be great to have them back, Toyota fully. Toyota and Ford, like they're on the fringe at the moment. They're almost there.

And if we change something that doesn't suit them, they could so easily take that step and leave again. You know, Honda again are pushing for the engine, just asking Martin. and I'd love to have them as just a factory team. I wouldn't adore that. So it's not perfect. There are definitely some issues that are causing these manufacturing giants to go,

actually this doesn't tick all of our boxes. Are those decisions coming because of what the teams are saying, or are they coming because of what the FIA is saying? It's hard to know. It is. I do think overall the simplification of power units going into this year is a net positive because getting rid of the MGUH, which was, it seemed like it was universally,

popular because a lot of people watching F1 don't care about it. And it seemed like people in F1 didn't care about it. I thought it was complex and expensive and fat. Heavy piece of engineering. Right, yeah. But this is where what Pat Simmons says comes in again, because his point is a good one that the energy loss from the MGUH that isn't present anymore had to in theory be replaced by something.

And the initial idea was, as you say, that front axle energy recovery. And it was kind of mooted because the FIA were worried that it would almost make the car's four-wheel drive through corners, which Pat Simmons felt was a needless point. It just clears the misunderstanding, again, that people who don't understand the topic are being involved where they shouldn't be. You know, Pat Simmons is an engine expert. He understands how that power generation. works and he's brilliant at what he does, a brilliant mind. It would be like then taking me as a marketing person and going,

well, Sam, yes or no, front axle? No, no, no, no. I know nothing about how MGUK, MGUH comparison works. I don't know. What an engineer? So I think that's what's happened there. Jean Todd is not me doing a marketing thing. He's a brilliant mind as well.

But I don't think he necessarily has the same level of expertise in engines as someone like a Bonotto or a Simmons might have. And so, therefore, they may have lost something. think because of it. Yeah, the proof will be in the pudding and that pudding is very near to being baked because just in a couple months time we will be in Australia racing again and it's a lot of questions that remain unanswered at the moment that in theory should be answered quite shortly. One thing I am looking forward to is the reliability question. Yes. We have like a bulletproof formula for a long time now where cars, what breakdown, each team

maybe gets one proper DNF every season now, one or two at most. there was a time in the 80s and 90s and further back where sometimes you get a team that has 10 D&F to season because of the reliability. And it was normal. I forget what Jacques Villeneuve's record was at BAR. I think it was maybe BIR's first season. And he just like two thirds of the year didn't finish the race.

Like, again, I can't remember how many races it took for him just to finish a Grand Prix. But that was the way, it was. It was definitely a rate Grand Prix at least. Yeah. Now, I don't wish that upon any. that's too much. But I do want a little bit of jeopardy of almost the Murray Walker reaction of the,

oh, no, no, as you see an engine garping smoke. And there is a bit of drama to that when there's someone leading or fighting for a dramatic position. And we are missing that a little bit. That kind of luck of the fate a little bit going your way or not going your way. Well, that's why we kind of knew that with the championship battle in 2025, you had three drivers in the mix. And between all three of them, unless I've missed one, there was just one mechanical DNF all year.

I know Vastappan also had a DNF, but that was Antonelli going into the side of him and Piastri obviously crashed in Baku, but the only mechanical DNF was that Norris one. And we knew that it would be so influential because of how bulletproof reliable these cars are now. 10, 15 years ago, people who, and they're ought to be out there who didn't want Norris to win that championship,

would have had almost a likely fingers-cross moment to go, the engine could go. at any point, the engine could go, or something or the gearbox could break. It could happen. Not in 2025. No. Let's take our final break on this episode. On the other side, we've got a top five list.

Welcome back to the final part of today's episode. We're going to round this out with a top five list, Sam. And this is a good opportunity again off-season to pick out some really random topics. But it's good to delve into them. We're going with a top five driver team moves. and we've got all of F1 history to look at here. It still might be the case we end up with four of the same five. Who knows?

But we'll have to go through the process to find that out. So, I mean, we can say whatever in terms of the reasoning as well. It might be quite obviously they've gone from a bad team to a good team and started winning championships. But maybe there's other reasons that we'd like to factor in as well. So what kicks off your list at number five? Number five, I've got Ert and Sangerangay to McLaren, in 88. Seng and join McLaren when they were

pretty much at the peak of their powers. They were an absolute delight at this point. And it was almost two mega forces coming together. He picked up eight victories in 1988, 15 out of 16 wins in total for McLaren that year. Was the most dominant year in Formula One we've ever seen when it

happened. It was just the perfect storm in Formula One. It was what you always go, you know, when you played like one of those games, like F1 manager and you go, what if I just put, Michael Schumer and Lewis Hamilton in the same team and give them everything they've ever wanted, what happens.

It was kind of that in real life. So that's why it ends up fifth on my list. It was just one of those incredible partnerships that came together at the right time. That's fair. I'm not sure it's quite the same situation, but I think we're still looking for the next time an epic driver joins an epic team

that already has an epic driver. So I think maybe there was some thoughts that Ferrari could be that, because Hamilton LeClair, on paper, like a few years ago, goodness me, what a lineup and hasn't quite materialized. But that one absolutely did from the off. Very good shout. And it does mean we don't have the same top five because that one doesn't quite make my list.

Number five, and this sounds like a paradox, but it is actually true. Brabham to Brabham. And in this sense, I guess the move was not to an existing team. It was to start up his own team. So I'm going back to the 1960s for this one. He raced for Cooper in the 1950s, just as they were developing a rear-engined Formula One car, which nowadays just feels like it's very obvious. But in the early days of F-1, they were all at the engines at the front.

And it was Cooper, who were the first team to unlock this great technique of putting the engine in the rear of the car. Works out really well because Brabham wins the championship in both 1959 and in 1960. but invariably when it comes to these updates, if you manage to unlock something that gives you a massive advantage, the clock does then start for these other teams to catch up. A great example of that would be 2009 with the double diffuser and Braun, and we were just waiting that season as the other teams got quicker with Braun having that advantage at the beginning.

Worth mentioning, 2009. Historic race review later this moment. month. We're going to be looking at the 2009 Brazilian GP. Definitely one to catch up on. Great race. Looking forward to reviewing that one. But back to Brabham, he decides to go off and make his own team maybe sensing that Cooper's time at the top is coming to an end. He was absolutely right with that. Tough start to his time as a team owner slash driver. A few years where he really struggled. And to the point where in 1965, he was tempted to just walk from driving and just manage the team.

For whatever reason, I think maybe related to Dan Gurney going off, one of his drivers going off to form his own team, he decides to stay on for another year, driving, and he wins the title. And there's a very good chance that however many years into the future, he's the only driver that has won a team, sorry, has won a championship within his own team. It might never happen again. I don't think it will ever happen.

Right. So, yeah, because of his bold move, he gets that little piece of history and a third championship. Number four on your list, Sam. We jump quite far forward into the, well, now it's the past, but at that point, it was the future. I've gone to Fernando Alonsoe joining Renault in 2003. Very new to the sport at this point was Fernando Alonso.

He'd only been a rookie for a couple of years at this point, driving at the backing. Quite a lovely livery Minardi, actually. If only it was just even slightly quick. Just do something respectable, please. He's surrounded by a lot of top talent in full. one at this point. You've got Schumacher just beginning a dominant reigns as he's in that Mnardi, of course. You've got drivers that he's going up against like hacking and Montoya's

just started to come into the fray. Riking, of course, is also arriving in the sport at the same time. In 2003, Renaud pick him up. And yet, within a year, he starts to emerge. And suddenly, he puts an end to what as being a dominant five seasons under Schumacher and Ferrari. And this young Spaniard in this plucky Renaulte team, that hadn't been that successful for a while, turn around them with a double championship and it's just kind of out of nowhere and you kind of forget how quickly Fernando also went from being this rookie

at the back of the grid to being a two-time world champion beating Michael Schumacher in this Goliath of Ferrari. So, yeah, I thought that was a great move, one that doesn't get spoken about enough actually in kind of the modern setting. Great shout. I'm going to raise you your Senator McLaren with a Prost to McLaren going just slightly further back in time.

People forget Alan Prost, Dave, debuted for McLaren in 1980. They just think of obviously the successful years, but he debuted for McLaren in 1980. It goes horribly wrong for both. Like, the McLaren wasn't very quick. Pross scores only five points. And he goes off to Renault for 1981.

He picks up nine wins over three years with Renault. Of course, French team, French driver, very much a match made in heaven, you would think. And he is within 19 points of winning collectively, of winning all three titles, but he doesn't win the championship in any of those years. Now, at this point, Renault is using turbocharged engines.

They were the first to introduce them back in the mid to late 70s, and everyone else is kind of playing catch-up. So some teams have already made the transition over some are just starting to now. But Renault are still in a pretty good spot, and Prost has just finished second place in the championship. Unfortunately, the Prost and Renaud relationship deteriorates very quickly. Prost is fired by Renault, at which point he has a choice.

Like what does he do next in his F1 career? And he decides to go back to the team where he had been relatively unsuccessful in 1980. He goes back to McLaren who had just turned over to the turbocharged engines, but had really struggled in sort of the second half of 1983. They didn't score a point with their new turbocharged engine. But for whatever reason, he chose McLaren and it worked because the next six years, he goes second, first, first, fourth, second, first. So very much a move that worked out for him.

I still think Prost might be the most underrated driver in all of Formula One history. He's so good. He's so good. It's ridiculous the way that these, you youngings out there, you see this top five, top ten list, and Pross is so far down the order. It blows my mind. He was amazing.

Yeah, there's like five or six drivers, I think you could argue, are better than Prost. And I wouldn't even necessarily say I agree with all of them. But I don't know. There are just some arguments that I don't think it should happen when it comes to Alan Prost's career versus others. Number three on your list, Sam. Number three, I've got Nickelauda, Gicolauda,

the move from BRM to Ferrari, which at the time was a really, really confusing one. He had no wings at this point in his career. BRM were a declining team. And I think there's even a quote that I read, that Enzo Ferrari basically said, Why do we need a key louder in the team? Well, basically, they picked up Lockster Driver.

They picked up an engineer. They picked up a man that understood where things were going. And he revolutionized that Ferrari. Of course, it's dramatized in the film Rush, which if you haven't seen, go and see it. Because as much as it is a dramatization, it's a really blimming good formula one film. It's really well-hung it.

So great, the soundtrack alone is the best thing's of all time. Last minute, the hands in the track is just ridiculous. Get a goosebumps. Honestly, good. Honestly, goosebumps. He had a lot of technical influence on that car throughout the time that he was there. He worked very closely with Fogiery,

and he helped turn the Ferrari 312T around. It's one of the greatest Ferris that they ever had. He had great, great feedback, really, really clean on the setups. And that turned into results. He wins in 1975. You know, that's only a season later. He goes on to win the championship. He nearly wins in 1976, of course.

Loses out by one point to James Hunt. And that's during the season where he, He has. The infamous crash of the Nürberg ring where only six weeks later, he returns and races a gang. If you haven't seen the car, the wreckage and stuff, I implore you to go to the Formula One museum that tours if it comes to your city, go and see it. There's some really interesting facts about that moment in there as well.

And it hits home, just how incredible that was. And then, of course, 1977 rovers around where Hunt's got really in that anymore. And boom, you can laver wins it again. So he's almost a three-time world champ. He gets to do the two-time World Champion up in the clouds up there. Big up Nicolauda forever. And it was such a bold move from Ferrari to put him up against the likes of Clay Rickinson. Unproven to go on and do what he did at Ferrari.

We've seen even now with Ferrari just how difficult it is to turn around that beast. And he did it. Yeah. Of course, he does go on to win that third title, but for McLaren later, he doesn't get the three wins at Ferrari's. He nearly did three straight years. Number three on my list. I've gone with Jackie Stewart to Matra and it's quite interesting because you've just mentioned

the BRM decline. I'm almost going back to the start of that decline because he joins BRM in 1965 and BRM are off the back of winning the title in 62 and finishing runner up in 63 and 64. So a very good team to make your debut for and he does a great job in his debut year just Jackie Stewart. He wins his first race, five podiums, P3 in the championship, great start to his career.

but the next two years are almost the start of that BRM decline. He finishes just seventh and then ninth. And he decides to then go to Matra in 1968. And Matra and Ken Tyrell, because it was Ken Tyrell's team, but racing with a Matra car. It's a bit of a double part of this one. This is the first part. He goes to Matra, wins the championship in 1969.

And to this day, little fun fact, He's the only driver ever to win a championship, win a driver's championship in a car made in France. Because whilst Fernando Alonso does win a couple of titles for Renault, that was when the car was made in Endstone in the UK, even if the engine was still made in France. But Jackie Stewart has that as one of his many records in this sport. But Tyrol and Matra split at the end of 1969,

and Jackie Stewart as a choice. He stays with Ken Tyrell, who wants to keep using the Ford Cosworth engines or stay with Matra who want to use their own V-12 engines. Matra never win a race again in their existence. Ken Tyrell, even though it's a difficult 1970, then gives Stuart the chance to win in 71

and in 73, at which point he probably retires. So I think Stuart made... It's almost a two-for-one special there because he makes a good call twice to Jackie Stewart. Oh, God, I love Jackie Stewart. He's such a hero, such an icon. I'm glad he got his roses, he's got his flowers a little bit, because he does so much for this sport,

all the way through his safety and the way he speaks so highly, he's such a kind and gentle person who comes to the driver. So the fact that he can also put across the accomplishments of actually being that multi-world champion is amazing. I'm in constant awe of Jackie Stewart. He's one of my favorites of all time. He moves to Tyrol, by the way, and he is like, he's negotiating with the team sponsor for a deal.

funding. He is leading presentations with suppliers like Ford and Goodyear. And he's a driver. Like he's special. He's very special. Formula One was a really different place in the 60s. Yes, it very much was. I do wonder whether we share the top two or not. We will soon see. Whether we have them the same way round. True. Number two, I've got Lewis Hamilton to Mercedes when he made the move after being at McLaren, of course, since his debut in Formula One, joins in 2007 and almost wins the title in the debut year if it wasn't for a rather unfortunate series of Final Few Grand Prix and Kimmy Riking having an absolute barnstormer to the end of the season. But he goes to-to-to-to-to-to-time world champ Fernando Alonso and holds his own.

Yes, you could do the dance while listening, folks. And then, of course, 2008 comes around and you get the infamous Is That Glock moment where he does win his first title. Nicole Scherzinger runs out into the pit-lain screaming at a headoff and a Ferrari engineer headbutts award famously. But after that, it's not as plain sailing as you might have thought it would have been consuming the positive start that he had to his career. He went for a bit of a crash-tastic moment, mistakes were made,

the car was never as on top as it was expected. And whilst he ends up doing very well against the likes of Vessel, the Button and Alonso, that never emerges as a real title contender. And at that point, he makes the sudden switch to Mesaigis, taking seven-time World Champ Michael Schumacher's seat as he retires for the second time, going up against the very established now and favoured Nico Rosberg who had done a brilliant job

going up against said seven time world champion and he makes it his own the fact that in 2014 he immediately turns that into championship wing and then championship wing number two and then Rosberg comes along

and takes one but then it's playing selling again there and the rest of history that we know he wins six driver's titles seven constructors titles it is the most dominant partnership in all of Formula One and it was out with a bit of a limb to make that happen. I would be very curious to see a different alternate history.

There's someone else going to that Mercedes, just to see how history will play out. But do you make it happen? Yeah, I will just add to what you're saying, because that one is actually number one on my list, Hamilton to Mercedes. I won't say too much more because you've covered the main points, but he was mocked by some for going to Mercedes, thinking this was a career-ending decision. May he rest in peace, Eddie Jordan was one of those. to very much questions. Twitter replies to the announcement of Hamilton going to Mercedes.

100%. Because there are far more comments at that time suggesting, what are you doing? McLaren is the place to be. It's where you won your first title. He was still competitive, of course, when he left McLaren at the end of 2012. Like that season, it could have easily gone different. 2013, though, is the only time in his career at that point that he failed to win multiple races in a season. will take one win the Hungarian GP in 2013, I think it was.

But he had won at least two races in every other season, even 2009, where that McLaren was not very good for most of that year. But it works out. That was why it was my number one. Might well be we've got these positions switch. But number two for me was Michael Schumacher to Ferrari. I think it's easy to look at this one in hindsight and say, well, Schumacher moved to Ferrari.

What a big brain strat that was. Yeah, well, you moved to Ferrar. Ferrari and you won titles, real genius move. No, it was still fairly bold at the time because he had to leave a team that he had just won back-to-back drivers championships with in Benetton. And you think about Ferrari's success with Schumacher, they didn't have a lot of success without Schumacher. He was joining that team in 1996. Ferrari hadn't won a driver's championships since 1979. They'd only won two races in the last five years before Schumacher came into that role. And whilst Rory Byrne and Ross Braun made the move over from Benetton as well,

they only did so in 1997. So there was no guarantee that this dream team was going to follow Schumacher over to the scuderia. He makes the call. The 1996 car is an absolute dog and he somehow wins three races in it. And even then, like 97 goes to the wire, doesn't win. 98 goes to the wire, doesn't win. 99, Ferrari win the constructors title, but he's out for most of the season with a leg injury. It's not until 2000. It took years for this to pay off.

Did he finally win that driver's championship for Ferrari their first in 21 years? So it's easy to revisionist history this and say he was obvious that going to Ferrari was the right call. At the time, I am not convinced about that. So that was why it was number two, I'm honest. Yeah, I have made it at my number one. I think those two are completely rotatable.

Another day, I put Hamilton, not won a Schumacher at two. The fact that the last time a driver's title was won before Schumacher in 2000, was Jolie Schechter in 1979. You've seen the Ferrari are going through a tough period now, and they are, but that was, we are at that pool. It's about to cross over. Remember 2007? 2007 was writing at Ferrari, right?

We're getting there. Poor Charlotte, Clark. Can he ever do it? It's getting to that time point. And they did win the constructors in 83, but no driver. of his title came along with that either. So it's been a really tough time at Marangelo, the Tofosia starve,

their drive from a championship fight at this point. And the success isn't walking. It's not like he steps into a car, and suddenly he's able to go, well, yeah, easy. I'm the two-time world champ at this point. I'm going to come along and I'm going to be a winner with Ferrari. It's not romantic like that at all.

It's hard graft. It's difficult. And he brought the right person with him, which I think makes the change so fundamental. mentally brilliant from Schumacher's point of view because year on year, the car gets better. And the car gets better because Schumacher is excellent at feedback. Schumacher is brilliant at extracting pace from a car. And braw and the like that come with him also develop a sensational car around him

that eventually culminates to a partnership that delivers five consecutive drivers' titles for him, of course, 2000, all the way through to 2004. Now, that's mind-blowing. And in the 90s and early 2000s where reliability was so tight. where sponsorships were so... Inging out, money was so hard to come by. The fact they hadn't won for so long. We see Schumacher now as like a racing guard. But at that point, in 96,

he was just a really talented young German man. I thought he was. You want to cover titles. Sure, that's been done before. Turned out to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest of all time because of that move. So for me, that's why it's just crept in front of Hamilton. But you asked for me a year,

there's every chance I put him the other way around. Yeah, I've got to, the top two. I was like, they're going to be the top two, just what order it's going to be in. Let us know what you think about our top five lists. Hopefully, you learned something as we went through those various decades as well as part of this top five list. I know that even though we know that bare bones of most of these stories, it's very interesting for us to go back and research this sort of thing. I learn a lot every time. You pick up new things each time. So it's interesting for us. Hopefully it's interesting for you as well. If you have any other ideas of

maybe top five lists you want us to cover in the future, please do let us know in the comments. And who knows, maybe we'll tackle that one. It's a good time, January and February, of course, with no F1 on at the moment. That will soon change, though, Sam. We're going to be back with another episode on Wednesday. We will be back midweek for more F1 chat.

There's all sorts of F1 news coming out, and we've got chik chat like we've just had as well. Make sure you join us. Come and join the Discord. Come and join Patreon where you'll get extra topics such as that classic historic review. And if you're a top tier subscriber or you want to be, you'll get your birthday shout out at the end of the month as well if you're born in January, make sure you message us on there as well to make sure you hear your

name shouting out. Follow us on social media late breaking F1 on all channels because, hey, the context is pretty darn good. Big up, producer Kirsten for that one. We're absolutely loving it. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us in this off break. We know it's tough to talk about F1 stuff, but we're getting there. It's going to be very excited when it does.

We'll see you soon. In the meantime, by being 10. And I've been Ben Hocking. And remember, keep breaking late. Podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.