The Late Braking F1 Podcast - FIA issues new MISCONDUCT penalties for 2025!

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Ahead of the 2025 season, the FIA has introduced new misconduct rules, including potential suspensions and points deductions! Ben and Harry share their thoughts as well as discussing Adrian Newey’s comments on the 2026 regulations, James Vowles admitting to ‘too much change’ in 2024, and Max Verstappen’s best seasons in F1 so far... FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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They're all leaving us. At this rate, it's just going to be Clives. But not Sam. But not Sam. Could you imagine? Sam's not going to come today. We have got Clive's Picklesworth for an entire podcast. Yeah, no Sam today either.

He's having the best time, I'm told, in a new market. That's the thing. Like, ordinarily when one of us misses an episode, we make up a reason as to why they're missing, but the actual reason is better than anything we can make up. He's a new market. A training course on horses, I think. A training horse.

A training horse. Yeah. those training horses. Yes, anyway, so you just stuck with me and Ben for today. The best half of late breaking. You know what? I can't argue with that. It's a great point well made.

We've still got plenty to cover off, even though we are in the midst of January because, well, Mohammed Ben Sulean still exists, folks. Before that, we are also going to cover off a top five list of Vastappen's best seasons in F1 and a comment from Adrian Newey about the 2026 regulations. And apologies, first of all, folks, because we would have definitely tackled this on Sunday,

but we recorded it early. And in the process, completely forgot it was our 500 episode as well. So well done us. Happy 501, folks. There's only two of us here. The crowding achievement of episode 501 is we're going to talk about this week old news of the FIA and what they're doing now.

The FIA has outlined new guidelines for punishing drivers misconduct ahead of the 2025 season, including tiered fines for breaches with F1 drivers facing the highest penalties. Stewards can consider mitigating or aggravating factors with punishments ranging from fines to bans and points deductions for repeated offences. Misconduct includes moral injury to the FIA, public incitement, violations of new neutrality and non-compliance during official ceremonies. F1 drivers face fines of 40 to 60,000 euros for a first offense, 80 to 120,000 and a suspended

suspension for a second, and 120 to 180,000 plus a one-month suspension and maybe points deduction for a third. Violating the neutrality clause, by the way, also requires an official apology. Violating the neutrality clause, that sounds like something that would happen in Switzerland. No. What? In my well-being, Sal would better watch out. The others are we okay.

Where do you want to start with this? Firstly, I fear Sam will be very sad to have missed. I mean, we'll get his thoughts on a different episode, I'm sure. But, yeah, right. We don't have no drivers left. Or no. We're going to have nothing left to what? much.

This, I mean, as we've already said with Mahabab bin Siddium and his, his thoughts on, swear, swear. Can I just check? What is violating the Neutrality Act? What does that mean? That is anything like political, personal statement that they get approval from the FIA to do. I mean, Ler Sampton is not going to be there after race one then on that basis. Yeah, look, this is.

just, again, when there are so many issues with the FIA and, you know, the, the, the, their ruling of F1, this is just a non-issue. And we see, for some reason, they're making such a big deal. I say they. I believe it's probably me, B. P. Mahm. is making such a big deal out of this. But this is, this is just pathetic. And it's things that, things that the fans of the sport do not care about. And none of this will stop drivers from doing these things. And if it gets to a, I fear we're going to get to a point where it'll be the drivers versus the FIA.

The drivers in F1 versus the FIA. And for the FIA, that's a crap position to be in. Because at least before you might have had some support from the, from the drivers on some issue. but if you're going to turn on the lot of them here, and I know it is perhaps targeting those who are less willing to comply. That's supposed to happen, especially with swearing. But this is now targeting all of them.

And that's a bold move. It's a bold move to go down this route. And I really, what are you doing? Is that actually? Definitely. is apt, it's very apt. It's just, it's a bizarre, bizarre running. I know I will get onto this,

but it does really feel Mohamed Ben Sullyam motivated, not to the general FIA, because I, we've done many years of F1 without this sort of need, need for any ruling. And, and I just don't understand.

This, this, this doesn't feel like it is addressing an issue. It's, it's, it's, um, just Ben Sudiam increasingly facing criticism for this bizarre.

agenda he has and he's doubling down on it and it's a killer backfire. There's no way this this doesn't backfire. I mean, the drivers versus the FIA, I agree with you. I can see it going down that path and it always goes well. Source the early 1990s. He really goes well. Lots of nice pictures of mattresses in a hotel room. Yeah.

But honestly, we might be, maybe we're not at the later stages of that, but we might be at the earliest stages of it based on what he's doing here. I'll be honest, folks, like a bit of a look behind the curtain. Whenever I'm preparing these topics, I've got my notepad just below, if you're watching on YouTube, just below me here. And I'll scribble down some notes depending on what the topic is. Sometimes I'll have a lot of notes, sometimes won't have many at all. I was sat looking at my piece of paper for about 10 minutes,

having no idea where to start with it. This is the thing, it's so bizarre. It's almost difficult to form any coherent thoughts on it because it's just why? The only thing I can think of is why? Why are you doing this? What are they going to, what's he going to prove? I feel like, I mean, the F1 drivers and all the,

FIA drivers because this isn't just an F1 thing. This is F1 drivers will be penalized the most, but it's a tiered system. So I've seen a few people comment that Formula E drivers who are even more swear happy than Formula One drivers might be in trouble. But they have always needed to follow a sporting code. Like that's always existed. But it's all very, it's all very vague. And there's always been an issue of having different interpretations of the code.

There's no real guidelines for penalties. And it's all been done on a case-by-case basis. So, you know, Vastappan at Singapore is very much evidence of that. I know Ben Suleim last year turned around to the stewards and basically said, yeah, if you can find anyone up to a million, however, euros or dollars now, but you can find anyone up to a million. It's like, well, yeah, that's a strong guideline. Anywhere between zero and one million.

Go ahead, stewards. What do you want to give a penalty out for? So I don't, we've always called for consistency in many respects from the FIA and standardising processes. To an extent this could do that as a concept. I don't mind it. The problem is, no, I can't say the problem because there are, there's a lot more about problems. There's so many problems with this because you have to question why this has been introduced.

I don't think Ben Suleim is sat there in his office going, we need to standardise all of this and bring in consistency. Because if he fought that, then about 90% of the way the FIA works wouldn't work that way because he would have solved it because he cares about consistency. So I don't believe that's the reason he's doing all of this. It's the definitions that they've produced, and we'll get on to maybe some of them in a bit,

but they're all still loose and there's no exact. examples, it's really difficult to know what the stewards are going to do with a lot of these. If examples were provided and there was a clearer definition of what misconduct actually is, maybe there's a world where I'm on board with this, but I just feel like this is a power-hungry wannabe tyrant in Ben Suleim flexing his muscles because he has a different opinion on something than F1 drivers have, which is something as trivial as swearing. I just don't believe this is being done for the right reasons, put it that way. No, it's not.

This is just an agenda, right? Yes, for sure. A big old agenda. Did you see what, because obviously multiple news sources have reported this, did you see the BBC's report on this? I did not. Why? what of the BBC said?

Well, Andrew Benson is the chief Formula One reporter for the BBC. Big Sebastian. With a Vettel fan, actually. A massive spastic. A couple of things that came out. Multiple sources told Andrew Benson and all the BBC that a lot of people at the FIA were against this. One source said it was pushed through on a snap e-vote.

Bear in mind that there are. is a world motorsports council meeting coming up that they could have done this at but instead apparently it was pushed through on a snap evo and there was no consultation with stakeholders the grand prix drivers association or anyone else so if your starting point is maybe this is an agenda from bencilium and bencilium only none of those reports turn you the other way like that sounds like an agenda a snap evo which is on the on basically on on the day, everyone's working from home. Hence why it's an e-vote.

We're doing this today. You must now vote on it. Ridiculous. Ridiculous. But believable. Oh, yeah. I mean, sadly, very believable. I, yeah, this could be particularly,

the F1 and the FIA have been at loggerheads now for a good year or so. And we've, we've spoken about this before with, you know, with the Andretti. with the Andretti Cadillac entry which obviously now was just the Cadillac entry but the FIA were going against F1's wishes because they immediately allowed Andretti in whereas F1 didn't but this is some sort of play this has all been some sort of play

in a wider struggle for power between the F1 and the FIA that Ben Sillium's just going to lose I just I'm not sure why he why where he thinks this is going to go for him because F1 if they truly truly needed to could eventually move away from the FIA and get their own governing body

I just feel like they could do that and the FIA need F1 as many you know obviously the FIA they have many other world championships you know World Endurance Championship Formula EVE already mentioned rally.

There's loads, but F1 is where they make their dollar. And I think... You can add all the other series up. We're still... Yeah, exactly. We're going to make up for it. So, yeah, I just,

I struggle to see why, where this is going to go for, for Bencilium, but it's just stupid. Yeah. And the thing is, as well, like he's, or the FIA, are basically giving themselves

the guidelines because Ben Suleum himself, in theory, isn't going to be giving out the penalty. at least that's the process. It will be stewards, but the stewards still belongs to the FIA. So, I mean, it's dictating how it will be for themselves. And there was an adjustment, I think, in November or December of some statutes of the FIA where essentially their accountability, I think, has been reduced as a result of those changes.

And now we've got this in addition to that. Another point that needs to be raised is that you remember the Grand Prix Drivers Association letter that came out pre-Christmas, whenever that was, calling for greater transparency of where these fines are going. Zero mention of that in here. Interesting. Do you know, do they not cover that in the snappy vote?

You know what? No. They neglected to include it. That is very, very interesting indeed. It's a surprise, actually, how they didn't cover that one off. Yeah. I it feels like it's

if we're looking God George Russell's got his pen out already he's scribing the next letter as we speak well I think when because obviously the GPDA was asked for comment

when all of this came out and I'm paraphrasing because I can't remember the exact quote but it was essentially we don't have a statement at this time so you know some it's cooking Oh boy, he'd be cooking.

They can definitely, like that transparency piece, though, they can definitely continue to work with that because that's something they've directly asked for and I think it's a completely fair ask and it has just been... Ignored. Yeah. Brushed under the rug. I...

Yeah, I can't wait for it. It's going to be excellent. George Russell, take two. But like I say, it's a fair point for them to ask for and the fact that the FIA haven't even at this point acknowledge that as a question they need to answer with this is, again, proves that this hasn't been very well thought out. I think Ben Silliam did actually have a response to that statement a little bit closer to the time. Again, paraphrasing, because I can't remember what it was,

but he dismissed it fairly quickly. So, I don't know, the drivers, as we've, I know we have to go back a long way over 40 years, but when the drivers do use them, their collective bargaining power, it's pretty powerful. Like, if, if they can rack up penalties for something as easy as swearing, like you don't have to work to get a penalty at swearing, what are you going to do with full 20 turn around and swear on mass?

Yeah, no race today, guys. Well, this is the thing I shared this video on Twitter, the F1, you know, the drive to survive world of, F1 thrives off the drama and the part of that drama is the passion of drivers and team principles I must add what they also well exactly Gunter Steiner um but the whole drama of f1 is it thrives off that that passion and a lot of that comes out in the form of of swearing with these drivers in this video i shared is an example of that it's just from netflix that video and yeah we're not going to have any drivers

like, this is what I mean. They're all going to swear in race one. And they're all done. Some of them swear, swear just accidentally in a press conference, crying out loud. It's also, I know they all speak English.

But a lot of them, this isn't their first language. So they might say things that, it means, not that it means different things, but you can't be that annoyed of them if they end up swearing in English when it's not even their first language.

This is a topic. I know we have. to address it is absolutely ridiculous yes it is absurd absurd absurd you're right about like it not being a first language for many as well because again going back to gunnestina like one of the reasons or the main reason he cites for swearing as much as he does is like he in terms of like england he grew up in england when he came over in a garage like that's that was the environment he was in. And you're going to get that with some of the other drivers who have come over to England at the age of, I don't know, say 14, 15 and started their karting career. Like,

that's inevitably what they'd have grown up with. And also, what's the issue anyway? Like, no, I know. What is the issue? Grow up. Do you know what, Ben? Grow up. Go on. I'm a Ben's silly man strikes again. Honestly, he's won that LB immediately. No competition for the other 11 months. I did want to quickly run through some of the sub-articles of misconduct because there is a distinction between some of them and there are a few things

I wanted to point out. So moral injury or lost to the FIA is the first one. That sounds to me like they don't want to be critiqued. They don't want people to turn around and say the FIA mess this up. Yeah. Which is

a bad place to be. We like censorship. But also, they, we like censorship. They're 2016 Mexican GP where Sebastian Vettel's absolutely fuming

and he basically tells Charlie White to F himself. That I can understand if you're going to go down that route. But that's because it's like a personal attack. on a member of the FIA and I think you got a penalty.

Did he get penalty for that or for something? He got something for that. That I understand. Drivers just disagreeing with a decision or something the FIA does as a body, governing body. No, you can't do that. And that's why you've got to hope

that there is at least some common sense that's applied by the stewards here because like you say, if a driver disagrees with a decision, that's surely okay. if a driver openly accuses the FIA of cheating based on no evidence, then yeah, that that is a problem. And you would hope that common sense prevails and that one gets penalized and the other doesn't.

The issue, of course, is if you've got drivers versus stewards and the jury is the stewards, it feels like they're probably going to side with themselves. playing both roles in the courtroom. Here's another good one as well. So one of them was non-compliance during official ceremonies. So we'd have to assume that's like not wearing an unapproved t-shirt on the podium or something like that, but not complying with a ceremony. And you've also got another one is incitement to violence or hatred.

Can you guess which one has the higher penalty? I'm guessing not the incitement to violence. No, no, that one is more acceptable than non-compliance during official ceremonies. Oh, well, that's good. So you can punch someone and get less of a penalty than being late to the grid national anthem. That's great news. Westappan punches Ockon and then is late for the podium, because more of a penalty for being late.

he's like halfway down the grid and he's like I need to be I'm going to be late for the podium or a punch on what do I do first It's like the two buttons being like Sweating Sweating, yeah yeah Are you going to have to choose?

Sorry Max I don't know This is going to be another one of those that isn't going to go away just yet so this would be the first time we talk about this I'm going to put a fiver on the fact that it won't be the last

time. Should we take our first break on this episode? On the other side, we've got some comments from Adrian Newee about the 2026 regs. Welcome back, everyone. Adrian Newey, if you haven't heard of him, he's a pretty good designer when it comes to F1. He's right? Yeah, it's not bad. He believes next year's rule change could allow one team to dominate the way Mercedes did after

2014. He said, I think there has to be a big chance that it's an engine formula at the start. The reality is I can't remember another time in Formula One when both the chassis regulations and the engine regulations have changed simultaneously and where in this case the chassis regulations have been very much written to try to compensate for the power unit regulations. So it's an extra dimension. I think the engine manufacturers will have learned to an extent from the lack of preparation that the rivals to Mercedes did prior to that change.

But there has to be a chance that one manufacturer will come out well on top and it will become a power unit dominated regulation, at least to start with. And there's a chance if it's on the combustion engine side of it, that will last throughout the length of the formula, because the way the regulations are written, it's quite difficult for people who are behind to catch up. Do you think he's right that there is a chance we have this sort of thing emerge? I mean, with every rule change in F1, there is that chance. And you could say for a little while with the latest rule change, we did have that with

Red Bull. Look at 2023. I guess a difference there is immediately off the bat it wasn't because 2020 was at least competitive with Ferrari and then 2024 for the most part was very competitive so we've not really had that with this one particularly I look so I mean there is always that danger I would hazard a guess that we won't get a 2014 style

I don't think we'll not at least with the way F1's currently run by Liberty Media I don't think we'll ever see a 2014-style Mercedes dominance again. We spoke about this on our latest historic review. You can listen to it on the Patreon with the 2014 Canadian GP. Get that socket out, boy. There's a plug. But, but, yeah, 2014 was such an anomaly because

unlike the current formula we have, with F1, which is very much led by F1. We had Ross Braun, you know, at the helm of these new designs of cars with the sole purpose of making them cars that can overtake and follow each other more easily than we've had before. And that was all, it was all entertainment driven, basically. Obviously, there's still F1, there's still the technological aspect, but it was, it was entertainment driven.

The 2014 regulations were, were driven by the manufacturer. towards and you know Mercedes stole the march on the rest of them by starting the development of that engine four years before we even got to those rule changes when they entered in 2010 so I just don't think we will ever get that sort of domination again there could be some domination to start but we've seen how quickly things have closed up with with these current this current rule set and with just the way the cars are and I would suggest even if there is a a team that get the jump at the start, the field will close up relatively quickly again.

And you'd have to suggest, you know, it could be an advantage for those, for his very own team. It could well be an advantage that they get a head start on the rest of them. So, yeah, I'm not too fearful in that. I sense he's having war flashbacks to the 2014 season with Red Bull.

again we touched on this in the in the historic review where the red bull was the slowest thing in a straight line there were snails that went faster than it and for all of his designing genius he couldn't design a car that went quicker in a straight line because you need an good engine for that so I guess that's what he's referencing here what he's a bit worried about but I just don't think we're in the same we're not in the same zone as that so I don't think it'll be it'll be that bad I think there's there is a chance the team dominates, but I'm with you that I doubt it will be to the same extent of Mercedes in 2014 because, oh boy, that car was quick.

And I don't know if there have really been any cars, or at least many cars in F1 history that have been as dominant as that to start a new set of regulations. There is a chance, something like it happens just based on, you know, Adrian Newey here is talking very specifically about the 2020. he's not just saying you know at the start of any regulations one team can dominate he is like going into depth about why this set of regulations in particular

could lead to that I think he's probably right that the engine will be the bigger thing to get right or not get wrong from the start because as you've already said like 2014 is a great example of where you can have what I think was a pretty good chassis like Red Bull had. But there's nothing you can do about it because there's just no grunt in the engine.

You referenced the 2014 Canadian GP that we watched. And that was it. Mercedes, spoilers, Mercedes essentially gave Red Bull that race on a plate, right? Like it was there for the taking. And Red Bull, even though they did eventually take it, they should have been miles past them

based on how quick the car looked in the corners. And then as soon as you get onto a straight line, Adrian Newe must have been cursing Renault for the entirety of that year, is the summary. People will have, most of the teams and most of the manufacturers were in some form or another around in 2014. And even though it's been over 10 years now, they'll still be scarred by how much of a jump Mercedes got on them. And I just think for the most part, they won't allow that same thing to develop again. yes there's absolutely a chance that someone or a team

looks at these regulations and it clicks more than it does for the other teams and other drivers but I don't think I don't think one team will have outworked the other teams I don't think one team would have stolen a march I sorry but as I would foresee this going more like a brawn GP than a Mercedes 2014 a team that a couple of teams get the march of the start that maybe you don't expect, but other teams catch up very quickly and not maybe not by the end of the first year, but possibly so. Bronjie being an exception because they can do anything to that car.

But I just fear, not fear, I think that's the way it could go. You could get a team that jumps, a couple of teams that get the head start, get the jump start. I reference Aston Martin, Aston Martin, Williams. These are the teams that, that's what they're hoping for. But I'd suggest that there are, you know, the might of Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Boy, etc. Would not be far behind them.

I'd also say the way that Formula One is now that I'm not saying that there's still plenty of innovation in the sport, but the way the regulations are set, there's so much standardisation across the board. A lot of parts are standardised now to the point where a massive loophole, like what Braun were able to essentially do in 09, I think it's going to be trickier for, one team and one person to spot something on that level again,

I can see things being quite a bit more even. The one thing that I do think is a valid point, though, from Adrian Newey here is that it will be tricky to catch up. And he doesn't reference it directly, but with the budget cap that we have in effect now, if one team does really steal a march at the beginning of these regulations and none of the other teams can outspend that team to get back to them, it might be difficult to catch.

So I am very much hoping we'd turn up in 2026, and there isn't a team that has done that because it would be just ridiculously ironic if the one reason, you know, the budget cap was brought in to instill parity in the sport, it would be very ironic if that was the thing that actually prevented it. But I don't think it will. Now, I, I'm with you. I'm pretty hopeful for these regulations, these new regulations.

And in the same way, I was hopeful for the current ones. We've got, 2023 will seem like a bit of a blot in the copy book of this current set of regulations. Because for the most part, they've actually been very competitive. And the field is the closest has been for, well, maybe ever, quite frankly. But possibly, I mean, like you said, in our recent episode, that we did in person when we were listing our top five things to look forward to in in 2025 one of the your number one was the four teams out front could be battling for a championship whether that's drivers or teams and i'm on board that hopium because oh my please that sounds good um

how much does f1 need this new set of regulations to to go well for them obviously we know the sport is continuing to grow, but reverting anything back to like 2014 might be tricky. So how much does it need to keep that parity to an extent? I actually think less rides on, I mean, to be fair, it depends on this season goes. If this season, it becomes an all-time, but more difficult.

But I think there's less riding on these regulations than there were, sorry, there's less riding on the 2026 regulations. than they were on these current regulations because the 2022 set were that was Liberty Liberty have come in done a lot of work in you know how the sport is presented getting fans to the circuit getting fans more involved obviously there's the the drive to survive aspect

which they've excelled at but the 2020 regs were the sort of the last bit of that puzzle I guess of their vision for the for the sport and this one was kind of the hardest one because it was such a you know it was a technical regulation overhaul um so i think with 2026 they've obviously done this bit already and uh i think i just think less will be riding on it obviously if we catch the end of 2025 and it has been an absolute banger with four teams involved in a championship fight i'm sure there'll be many of us going oh god i wish we wouldn't get rid of these regs however we said the same thing

similar things, I guess, at the end of 2021, because finally those regulations are allowed, well, not allowed, sorry, but within those regulations, a team had caught up to Mercedes with Red Bull and Verstappen. And I think at the end of 2021, I probably was one of those people that was like, I could do with another year of this because it finally feels like we're there. And even 2020, if you take out Mercedes,

was actually a very competitive year with all the other teams. So it was very close. so those last two years things had really really closed up and I guess we're probably at the same point now but having said that 2020 was relatively good and 2024 was very good for competitiveness so I don't think F1 will be as worried obviously they do not want a 2014 Mercedes dominant style situation but like I've already said I just I just don't think that's going to happen so yeah I don't think is as much riding on it obviously they would they want it to work,

especially with, you know, bringing new teams and this is one of the things that this new set has been sort of not pitched at, but it's helped other teams. It sparked the interest of other manufacturers or teams,

et cetera, wanting to be involved in the sport, Audi, Cadillac. So if they are spectacularly dominant by one team, then that might affect things. But yeah, I just don't think there's as much riding on it as we've had before.

And I think there's also, an important distinction that isn't always made between the ideal season. You have great racing and you have a great championship fight. You can have a good season without a championship fight. It is perfectly possible. Like, for example, 2024, if we look at a few of the races, you remember the stretch after Red Bull were very dominant in the first sort of five, six races of the season.

We had Imala, we had Spain and we had Canada as examples. Vastappen won all three races. But if that, those three races were replicated like eight times over to create a 24 race championship. And Vastappen won all the races, that would have been an exciting season. Like just because Vastappen had run away with the title, yes, you would of course want a title fight as well. But there's more to it. Like you still want each individual Grand Prix to have a level of excitement, which which 2024 had. So yes, you want to see a variety of winners.

That is the ideal. But you can have very exciting races with the same person just about winning each and every time. If they're able to be the difference is doable. Yeah. Even if there is a dominant team in 2026, doesn't immediately mean it's a disaster. No, I agree. I wanted to read out something else from Adrian New, a bit later on in the same quote, He goes on to talk a little bit about him leaving Red Bull.

He said, if he'd said to me 12 months ago, would I be leaving Red Bull? And then now, ultimately starting again, I would have said, no, you're crazy. But for various reasons, I felt it wouldn't be true to myself if I stayed at Red Bull. So the first difficult decision was exactly that. Do I stay at Red Bull or not? I obviously came to the conclusion that being honest with myself, I couldn't. And then having made that decision, it was then what to do next. I wouldn't be true to myself if I stayed at Red Bull.

That stood out. Very interesting, Adrian. I thought the very outspoken of him. I don't know that it's not very outspoken, but for Adrian Uey, it's quite outspoken. Yeah, look, I think he's been very quiet about the whole Red Bull thing. There's been no public.

fallout but you do imagine or it would that quote alone would lead you to imagine that there has there was something there that he wasn't that it was no longer happy with um with with with whatever whatever was going on behind the scenes of red bull um and obviously he's been treated with great respect for him as he's departed it's all been very thank you for your services it's been an honor etc which quite rightly too um but i think there's something and i'm sure it will come out one day, but there must have been something more that's happened behind the scenes there, because if things were going well, why wouldn't Adrian Newey stay and continue winning, making winning cars or helping to make winning cars?

He doesn't need to prove anything anymore. So I think if it was going well, he probably would have stayed. So clearly something has gone awry. Yep, that was my conclusion. Like I said, when I read that quote, I was like, oh, that's interesting because those are very carefully selected yet quite powerful words. Like he's not just dropped that in there like it's a natural set. Like it's not a natural. It's like I wouldn't be true to myself.

That points to this being a moral decision. and I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I just think this is a man who could say a lot, but as you've already referenced, based on the type of person he is, he probably won't. It's not really his style. But even for, again, as he say,

for Adrian Newey, this is quite outspoken. We know the Red Bull wasn't slash isn't a happy camp. Like we did have Christian Horner, Helmut Marco, the Vastappans, and all dueling and Adrian Newey, it wouldn't surprise me if he got to a point where he just didn't think it was worth being in that environment. The fact that he didn't take very long to,

I know he had his gardening leave and he starts work just over a month from now, but he didn't waste that much time in selecting what his next move was going to be. It's not like he sat out of regulations. He didn't, you know, what was it? Not even six months. from him leaving to it being announced

that he was joining Aston Martin and he didn't just wake up six months after it happened and he'll go, you know what, Astor Martin. You know that if the gap between the announcements was six months, the gap between the announcement and him talking to other teams

was probably far less than that. So yeah, I think there's more to be said. Whether it will come out or not, I don't think it will come out from Adrian Newey, but there are plenty of other more talkative people who would have been in that discussion who probably will at some point. Now what Marco's probably got something to say.

He's always got something to say. True. Right, let's take our second break on this episode. On the other side, we've got some comments from James Vowles. One, William's team principal, James Vowles, acknowledged the risks of his aggressive restructuring approach omitting some changes may have been too much for the team to handle in 2024. We have to change a lot within our organisation

in terms of infrastructure and technology to get us to the right place, he said, reflecting on both successes and missteps. Vows highlighted the concept of change saturation, explaining you can change things at a certain rate, you go too far though and you break it. In hindsight, moving things a little bit further that we can really deal with in one go. This aligns with Vow's philosophy when developing the 20203 Williams stating earlier in 2024 that he wanted to stress the system to the absolute limit to understand where it's breaking and how it's breaking. And it was the only winter that they were going to do that. There was a lot of change at Williams last year, particularly in terms of personnel.

And we have to trust James Vowell's that a lot happened in terms of processes that we'll never get to see as well. But was it right to make so much change all at once? Look, it will remain to be seen. guess until we get to 2026. But I'd suggest I think it probably was the right way to do this because he hasn't from when he's come, you know, join the team, which was beginning of 2020. Um, he's had two years now.

It's, we know, we've seen with, we spoke about this very recently with Aikamatsu at Haas. He's had a year to bed in to that team as team principal and then started making changes. So year one for vows was. seeing everything that I guess need to be changed. Year two has been making those adjustments, making those changes. And he doesn't have time to hang around

because at the end of year three, he wants, you know, he needs or wants them to be ready for 2026, which is this big rule change. The rules, the Williams are pinning a lot of hope on. So I don't think this is a bad thing.

It's obviously made things tricky for, from his side and from Williams's side, especially during 2024. But as I said, if we get to 2026 and the car's terrible, then we'll say this hasn't actually paid off. But I think it makes sense for him to have this approach because he is not,

time is not on his side. Yeah, I think he was right to change as much as he did in 2024. As mentioned, there were a lot of height. there was one point in the earlier part of the year, I forget exactly when, but sort of like April time, where it felt like every other day, Williams were making some sort of signing to the team.

So there was a massive influx of talent there. And then, of course, James Vowals went a step further and actually changed drivers mid-season and hired a different driver for this season, of course, Carlos Sines. And as mentioned, there were probably a lot of process changes

that we will never get eyes on but have to trust that they went ahead and did. I remember James Vow was like when he first came in, the team when he came in was so underfunded from the years of the Williams family. And that's no disrespect to Claire and Frank, but it got to a point where they were really struggling versus their rivals.

James Vowles when he came in was essentially managing the different parts of the Cup. via an Excel spreadsheet. They didn't have a system, a fairly basic system you'd imagine that other teams would have had. So it was always going to be a process for James Vowell's to get this team back to anything like serious competitiveness.

And of course, he's far from that point at this moment in time, but he is and always has been about these medium and long-term decisions. And I think making all those changes in terms, 24 was part of that. I think you would rather completely sacrifice one year than somewhat sacrificed two or three years. 2024 was tough. Like they fell back in the Constructors' Championship.

They finished ninth. They finished seventh the year before. So they dropped two spots. But I think you'd rather take ninth one year and then have a better chance of maybe sick or seventh this year than have two seasons finishing eighth. I just don't think there would be much much value in that.

James Vowles has been adamant all this time that even when he was battling for seventh in 2023, he said, yeah, I'd like to beat Alpha Tauri, who was their rivals at the time. But also, it's not why I'm here. I'm not here to finish seventh rather than eighth. I'm here to get this team back to winning races and getting podium.

So every decision has been made with that in mind. In terms of 2025, what do you need or want to see from them? This is a tricky one because, look, if Williams slip back to being last, then obviously that you don't want that from them. That's not a good way to see out these regulations. But again, because they're pinning quite so much on these 2026 regs

that this is pretty. terrible. It's not necessarily the end of the world. They are still getting ready for next year. I think you'd want to see at least operationally that they are top notch, even if the car isn't there, because that's sort of, again, like the last piece of the puzzle for 2026. If it's a bad 2025 car, you say, well, fine, because they're all concentrating on 2026. And we've seen it before teams have done this. But I think at least operationally, they need to look like they're,

they are all singing off the same hymn sheet and, and, you know, are ready to go because that's the sort of thing that they can't afford to, if they do have a good car in 2026, they can't afford to have that side letting them down. And again, I mentioned,

everybody referenced him, but I came out with his changes. He said, he's made a track side for Haas. So that again is in reference to, they had a more competitive car and he thought that the track side track side stuff was letting them down.

So that's the sort of thing I think you will want to see if they are like a seventh or an eighth or a ninth or even a tenth, I don't think it's going to be that concerning to be. That doesn't really matter where they finish for 2025 to be honest. I think vows will have got understanding as well from pretty much everyone involved

that 2025 isn't the goal. Like he's said as part of this, quote as well, that he's got the backing of Doralton Capital to make these long-term decisions. So he's got the backing of the important people that decide whether he keeps his job or not. The two drivers from Carlos Seins's perspective, it'll be his first season at Williams. It might be a bit of a shock to the system for Carlos Seines. Who has been in a at least semi-competitive car ever since Renault days or like, it's been a while since he's been in a car that hasn't been

at least capable of scoring regular points. So it might be a bit of shock to the system for him, but I think Sines is invested for what the long-term project is. And of course, Alex Albin on the other side of the garage. Who? So you know, Carlos Sines drives one car. Oh, that's a good joke with that. Everyone teams have two cars.

Did they? Yeah. Nor Williams are then. So, yeah, Carlos is driving one car, signs is driving the other. It's actually Carlos Seines and his dad. Yes, but Alex Albin has been there long enough that it would be really stupid if he wasn't understanding of it in 2025. Like he's gone through all of the hard work of being at a team where it hasn't been competitive.

It just wouldn't make sense for him to turn around in 2025 and be like, well, this car's not very competitive, is it? Yeah, what's going on? So, yeah, I think he'll have understanding from pretty much everyone. one that regardless of what the actual result, I agree with you completely that there does still need to be some progress, but I'm more interested in what the progress is in strategic decisions, pit stops. They haven't in recent times been great on pit stops. It'd be good to see them climb that championship as well.

Just, yeah, like you say, just getting them as ready as they can be for these new regulations, because that's the sort of thing that will at least carry over. from one era to the next. Vals also did have a few comments about beyond 2026. He said, what we already know internally is, 2026 isn't going to be the be all and end all. It will just be a positive step in the right direction. 27 and 28 should be steps above that again. So he's not pinning everything on just 2026 as the new year of regulations.

Do you think that's a healthy approach? first thing when you say beel and endel i just think of Ian as in be able and Edel um look this is a sensible approach for for for bowels because as much as you know the teams of williams and asston Martin a penny hopes on 2026 you'd probably say you'd expect maybe more ashton Martin to be nearer the front straight away than

Williams, just given the investment they've got, the backing they've got of Lawrence Stroll, the team they're building with Adrian Ui, with Honda, and versus Williams are the resource they've got. If Willie, look, if Williams turn up to 2026 and have a podium, you know, a car that's willing to fight for podiums, brilliant. I will bow down to the wise daddy vows. but uh come on murk engine it's gonna be 2014 all over again absolutely rocket ship um but but yeah so if they do brilliant but i would hazard a guess that's probably not going to happen what you want to see from

williams is a credible step forward into that into that at least up a half of the midfield um and they can build from there because i just think Williams James has just had less time of this than than the likes of Ashton Martin have or other teams that are working towards 2026. So yeah, I think this is a sensible approach. I think if he was coming out and saying, we're going to be world champions in 2026, then that would be unwise.

And I think this is a sensible approach. And again, as you said, it's good that he's got the backing of Doroth. And this is a long-term project. And it's not just all going to come, to bear in in 2026. This is longer term than that. Yeah, I think it's a wise approach because as he says, like if you start to pin absolutely

everything on just one solitary year, then it probably sends the wrong message to the important people within the organization and just everyone in the organization, really, that are working towards not just one season. I do think the step up from 25 to 26 does need to be a bigger step than anything we've seen from Williams and Vow so far. So, you know, if they were to, I don't know, score 30 points this season and then they were to score 50 in 2026, that's not enough. I think it needs to be a bigger improvement than that. But I do agree with the overall point of it still needs to be, you know, 27 and 28 should be steps above whatever they achieve in 2026. You're probably right that the likes of Aston Martin are going to be in a better position to compete with the front runners early on in this new set of regulations. But it will be interesting to see where Williams stack up with the likes of Audi that have kind of been parallel to Williams in waiting it out. Of course, they've waited it out for different reasons. Audi because they haven't been in the sport and it's just been Salber waiting to become

Audi. Williams have been around, but it's still the same sort of we're hanging on our hats on the next generation of cars. So how they stuck up against Audi and maybe a few of those other teams with similar objectives, that will be interesting to see. Let's take our final break on this episode on the other side. We're ranking some of Vestappen's best seasons. When you're a forward thinker, you don't just bring your A game, you bring your AI game. Workday is the AI platform that transforms the way you manage your people, money, and agents, so you can transform tomorrow. Workday, moving business forever forward. Welcome back, everyone. Something that the official F1 website did a couple of days ago

is rank all of Max Verstappen's seasons in F1. So he's now done 10 full seasons in F1. And they went all the from 10 down to one, picking what their best season for the Stappen was. We're only going to do top five here today. So it'd be interested to see how our list compares with VF1. Nice. Yeah. Let's start at number five,

because that feels like a good place to start on a top five list. That would be a good place to start. Where are you going? At number five for me, I've got his debut year, 2015. Like that. I almost put

2016 here, which is, based on that, would be a second year in F one. But I actually, which obviously features his first win in the Red Bull. But I think just as a more impressive year, I think 2015 sits above it.

So I'd actually have 2016 at number six. But yeah, 2015 I've put number five. He and Carlos Sons, they've debuted at the same time in the talk. or so. I mean, signs was very

impressive that year as well. Had a good year. Very good year. Yeah. And actually pretty underrated versus Verstappen.

But de Stappan, as all the great drivers do, made an impact immediately in F1. He also made an impact with the barrier at Sandovot, I seem to remember, with Roman Grosjean.

But that aside, that race before that moment was actually brilliant as well. He did some great overtaking people whilst they were being lapsed. If you haven't seen that, go and YouTube it because it's brilliant. But yeah, this happened being an instant impact in 2015. I'm thinking, you know, the move around Felipe Naza at Blanchezman in Spa for crying out loud. Yes. He was an instant star and obviously Red Bull. Then I realized this and put him in the

Red Bull only a few races in 2016. But I think as a number of final that is 2015 because Let's not forget, he was like 17. Well, that was the point I was going to make is that you're right to say all of these other greats made an impact very early on in their careers. Not that early. Yeah, like, he was so young. And you could tell almost from the first race, like, ah, yeah, this kid's not bad. This kid might have a future.

Yeah, he's pretty good. I didn't have it on my list, but I think the, reasons are very solid. I had number five, 2022, so his second championship, which I feel like was an important year for him because rightly or wrongly, there were question marks coming out of 2021. We know that the championship he won in 21 was done so

under controversial circumstances. And that doesn't take away from the impressiveness of the season, but there was still question. marks about could he do it again in I'm trying to be I'm trying to be careful with my words here because I do not mean this as an insult to for stopping in any way whatsoever

less auspicious circumstances and 2022 was fantastic like he had a bit of pressure from Ferrari early on the reliability of the car was great to start the year but he was held by Ferrari as well being Ferrari but he really did prove himself down the stretch in that year and it wasn't very close at the end of

the year at all. He actually broke quite a few records that year and almost none of them exist because of what he did in 2023. But at the time, like what he did as a season of dominance was pretty impressive. So yeah, I've got 22 at number five. What have you got number four? number four i've gone for uh 2019 i very nearly put it on my list um it's it's uh obviously the red bull switch to honda engines in 2019 after honda's pretty uh infamous run with mcclaren um and you know it was a bit unknown red ball had had not really had any real success since uh they also had some wins in 2017 and 2018.

They were with Ricardo and more so than the Vastappen. Vastappen did pick up wins in those years. Obviously, Ricardo then went off to Renaud, which turned out to be a great idea. And Vastappen was team leader of that Red Bull. And, you know, with a teammate that was nowhere near him all year, well, two teammates, that were nowhere near him really all year. So Vestappen was a lone soldier,

which he has sort of remained basically for the remainder of his time at Red Bull. But that year, I think he, let's not forget, Mercedes were dominant. They weren't 2020 dominant, but they were dominant. So, you know, Vestappen had to make the most of the chances he was given. And he did.

Germany. Another one we've reviewed on our, a historic review podcast, Germany 2019 in the wet. He was sensational there, obviously won that Austria, 2019 with a slightly controversial end with Charlotte Claire,

but again, brilliant race from him. Have we reviewed that one too? Yes, we have. I'm not doing this on purpose, but it's like an extension cable. So there's that one as well. And then was there,

did he have another win later on that year? Oh, I'm making that up. maybe not maybe there was those two no he won three I'm sure he won a third are you in Mexico as well I don't know I'm certainly won a third race but could not tell you where anyway yeah I'm pretty sure he has but yeah 2019 with a car that was not really not it wasn't worthy of winning races but it was it certainly wasn't the quickest car out there and Vastappen I think we then saw especially then again as we went into 2020

this was a scenario where a driver was out driving the car somewhat. Not to say it was a terrible car in either 2019 or 20, but it was, he was, we saw, it was like the second phase of Max Verstapen, we now know,

the first phase being at 2015 to 18 for me. And then the next phase was 2019 to 2020, 2020, 2021. And then we go into phase three. So yeah, this is the beginning of that. I've got 2021 at number four. Obviously, his first championship winning season. He was out qualified by his teammate, Sergio Perez, once all season.

And he was out finished by his teammate once all season. That's pretty good going. When Red Bull were a little bit quicker in 2021, because he did go in phases of, Mercedes being a bit quicker than Red Bull being a bit quicker. He took advantage when that Red Bull did have the pace. I think he did a very good job of that all year. I think honestly, and this kind of works for and against him,

I think he probably should have wrapped up that championship before Abu Dhabi. I think he had the pace to that year. But obviously, Hamilton does a very good job fighting back. Absolutely. But I think a few... Baku. Baku. Yeah.

There were just, he could have won that one beforehand. The reason is not higher, there were a few. A lot of people focus on Abu Dhabi and I understand why. Saudi. Saudi and Brazil, man. Like, oh, they weren't good. No, they weren't. And like Brazil, for example, he doesn't get penalized for what he does going off track.

And I stand by. He absolutely should have been. I don't think some of his racing was top-notch that year. So it's why it's no higher than fourth, but still on the list. We've got another three. The same year, 2021. For all the reasons you've mentioned, really, as I sort of say, I think that he's just on the cusp of the next phase of Maxfist happening this year.

And he steps up at another level. It's not perfect, as you already mentioned, with some of those races. however there are some performances in here which I actually think get just overlooked with the whole general drama of that year we weren't there sadly that one but Austin that year where he does one less stop

than Hamilton and Hamilton's hunting him down and he saves his tyres enough to fend him off in that last stint or last few laps so I think that one that one always gets sort of missed and then there's just like the flip side of that where he was just some races where he was totally dominant both the races at the

red bull ring where i mean they were pretty rare um dull austrian slash styrian gps and i can't remember anything that happened there really exactly nope um but vestappen dominated both of those we obviously had a double header of those because it was still covid um and also like zanvort as well where he you know he he smashed it there so it was a transformational year for Vestappen. Again, he wasn't perfect by any stretch, but it was, like I said, I think it was just another gear.

He stepped up another gear. And I think he took a lot from that year. Obviously, he took a championship, but he took a lot from that year that which he's in, apply to the rest of his career so far. Number three for me, I've got 2020. Valid. he finished nine points off of Valtri Botas.

He had no right to do that. That Mercedes, you've already referenced how dominant that Mercedes was. There were times in that season where that Mercedes was about one second faster than Red Bull and indeed anyone else. Again, he finished nine points off one of their drivers. And I was looking, thinking back at all of the, and there weren't as many races in 2020, compared to some of the more recent seasons, again, based on COVID. But Turkey was a bad race for Vastappen. It doesn't have a good race there.

I couldn't think of another one. I was scrambling around trying to think of another bad race he had that year. I think he had made that, and you've kind of alluded to 2019 as well, I do think 2019 and 2020 are underrated for Vestappen. I think he made a jump before people think he did in 2021. I just don't think he had the car yet. Yeah. Because again, that Mercedes was just that good.

He was also horribly unlucky that year. Like he finished, I'd look at this. He finished fewer laps than anyone else who completed all of the races that year. Like he had the, and he had the second most DNFs of the season. And yet, again, he finished nine points off of Bottas. Yeah, there were some instances

where he got past Bottas, was fighting Bottas where he shouldn't have been anywhere anywhere near him. Yeah, and I think there were at least one or two retirements again where he was either very close to the front.

Wasn't Imala? He got past Bottas and his tie, but he's the one, yeah. So yeah, I definitely had to put this on it. Yeah, I realize now when I put 2019,

I probably should have put 2019 out 20 is one, not that they are one season, but they are, that's pretty right. they, as I referenced, as he referenced, it's the, they reps at a time where he was driving better than that car

would allow him to go, basically. Yeah. Top two then, who've you got in second? No one two. I put 2024. Look, he also won the championship. He had some stellar, stellar performances. Brazil, you know, really stands out there.

he was very good at the start of the year. I think there were some performances in places like Imler again, actually in 24, where I don't think he probably should have won that with the speed of the McLaren. Miami, for the fact, he even was in that fight to begin with with the speed of the McLaren. And then some of those ones in the mid part of the year, where he managed to scrape decent results,

even if he wasn't winning. He's let down by things like Mexico and maybe Hungary. which is why I haven't put this higher up, but 2024, I guess, again, I think people will see it will maybe underrate it because it was, it's just, it was, it's more expected of us to do well, do that well. And I actually think it goes under, undervalued as a, as a season for him because of, you know, what we, what we saw, what we expect of him. But actually, that was, it was a stellar, stellar season taking out those couple of,

a couple of bad points aside, it was a stellar season for this happened. So I put it number two. I'm going to assume we've got the same top two. And I, I was really unsure what order to go in because they're both great years, the two most recent years for very different anything like each other. Eventually,

I settled for 2023 in second place but it's so clear the man won all but three races and I'm not putting it number one like it just doesn't seem right he was top two in all but one race that Singapore Grand Prix

that was won by Carlos Sines was the only race all year he was not first or second. And again, he was only second twice. He beat Sergio Perez, his teammate, by 290 points. If you added together Perez and Hamilton, who finished second and third in the championship, if you added their points together,

Mustafa would have beaten them. And the number of records he got that year, I think a lot of them will stay. stay for a long time. Big old time. Go to guess you've got that number one. No, I've actually gone for 27. No, I'm joking.

Oh, bold. No, it's 23. I've put the top. I was with you, Ben. I didn't know which way around to put these. I settled with 23 because, yes, you could argue he was, he wasn't as challenged,

uh, competitively challenged. as he was in 2024, but he still had times where he had to fight through the field. And it wasn't always like it was a nailed on, Vestappen's going to win this day in 2023. Yeah, he was, he was sublime. I've tried to think, and this is kind of what settled it for me,

I was trying to think of a time in 2023 where I went, oh, that wasn't great from Vestappen. And the only, only real one I could give him is Singapore, but the car wasn't, well, it didn't work for him there. But apart from that, in a 23 race season. I mean, Perez had the legs on him and Baku, but you're nitpicking. Exactly. So I, that's why I settled for it because it was pretty much a faultless season for

Fistap. I know people will say, you know, that he had the dominant car. but, which, you know, is true, but I think there were still times where he had to work for it and he was, he was sublime. And, you know, I think to the, like spa where he had to come from, well, basically last to win that. And it became,

won it after a third of the race. Yeah, well, exactly. But it became, in 23, it became such a like, oh, well, he's still going to win it. It became such a, for like a known quantity, that I feel that that goes overlooked. he still had to get through the field. It doesn't matter what way you look at it,

whether your car's dominant or not. He still had to do it. There's no one that's won it from that far back before. And he did it. So I think it cannot go overlooked. So that's why I put it first. Yeah. It's, I had 24 first,

for much of the same reasons. You put it second on this list. He had to be the difference in 2024. There's a reason. why it is very rare. A constructor's champion finishes third. Sorry, a constructor finishes third and one of their drivers wins the driver's championship.

It hasn't happened in over 40 years until Vastappen went ahead and did it. Sergio Perez was eighth. And I know Perez didn't have a good season by any stretch of the imagination, but you can't convince me that a big part of Perez looking as bad as he did is because of the excellence.

of what Vestappen was able to do. Like, as soon as... I think it was a very complete season and that he just needed to... And it's based on the circumstance, I appreciate, but he needed to show all sides of his game. Like, he had to show how dominant he could be. The first six races of the season

were kind of the same as 2023, really. And then you get the middle part of the season where he's eking out these wins. And then you get the final part of the season where he's... peeking out podiums and claiming these special wins like Brazil. I think if it wasn't for Brazil, people would probably focus on his win at Qatar a lot more.

Like that was, that car was not great at that point, and he managed to get the win there. So, yeah, you're splitting hairs when he gets 24 or 23, I think, though. It's quite good, isn't he? He is quite good, indeed. Oh no. Oh, no. I just realized what's happening.

It's the end of the podcast and we didn't know what to do every time. Should we just keep going? We never have to do an outro if we just keep talking. Until Sam comes back. Yeah. It will turn off in this chat on Sunday. We're still going.

Oh, thank God. Sam cares out of it. Folks, you can catch us in many different places. Let's start with our. good friend Patreon. We don't really need to plug because we've already plugged about 12 times today.

But if you do want to sign up to Patreon, the link is in the description. We do more than just historic race reviews, we promise. The only thing we mentioned, but we do have standard episodes. Bewith Breaking has gone out today as we're recording this yesterday

as you're listening to this. That's every single month. And of course, we're only, how many weeks are we off the new season? Not many. nice six yeah probably something like that sounds right yeah but as soon as that comes back we get back to power rankings as well so there's plenty to look forward to on patreon how many stars can you leave on a review um five is the minimum and the maximum as well maximum so that's the only answer there you go

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Oh, dear. Oh, no. Do you know what I've realized? What are they? Not just an outro we need to do. Oh, no. in January. I could have to do some birthday shout-outs.

Oh, my God. This is a disaster. I can't believe Sam has missed this. Oh, I bet he's chuckling to himself right now. And he's probably saying, birthday. Yes, we do have birthday shout-outs. Another Patreon benefit if you want to get involved.

If you're on the top tier, we'll give you a birthday shout-out in the month of your birthday. So January, last episode of January, we've got seven names. to run through today. Mark Flynn, who it's your birthday today, Mark Flynn, as we are, as we're recording this. Happy birthday to you. We've got Pommi, Jan 18th, happy birthday to you. No, thank you, children. Brooke, it might be your birthday as you're listening to this today,

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Happy birthday, one and all. Cricy. Is that it? Yeah, I'm calling it. We try to wait for us have to come back. But we're calling it now. We're calling it. Make sure you tune in on Sunday

because I promise Sam will be back. But in the meantime, I've been Ben Hocking. And I've been Ian Biel and Endel. And remember. Keep breaking late. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.