The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Is it time for Red Bull to focus on 2024?

Episode Date: August 13, 2023

Ben & Sam are together! They discuss Horner's indication of no more upgrades for Red Bull this season, and their opinions on what the other teams' development plans should be. They also cover Wolff's claim that Mercedes are now the underdogs people cheer for, rumours of Palou in consideration for 2 teams in 2024, and the relationship between Verstappen and his race engineer Lambiase. They finish with F1: Overrated/Underrated.. FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. Hello and a very warm welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Sam Sage and me, Ben Hocking. We don't have a Harry Ead this week, but we do have one location. One location. It's very cottages. It's your home. Very cottage. It's lovely. Lovely country fish.

to it. I've never been here before. Oh, country podcast. Oh, them country boys. I can't live on never been here before. Yeah, I know. First time. How long you lived here now? Just over two years. Just ridiculous. How long we've been friends? Oh, too long. Too long. It's delightful, mate. Thank you. Really love it. If you watch it on YouTube, which you can do, the whole bits of the episodes, don't know which bits, but the lovely fireplace behind us, Ben, you sit by the fire at nighttime, telling country stories to the locals. Yeah, when it's not, when it's not overly smoky. I mean, we try our best, but yeah, we should have Richard and lit it for the ambience. Yeah, and we should have all worn checkered shirts and put some wood in the background.

Yes. And we could talk to them in weird low Canadian accents like, oh, hello there, everybody. That's like a whole accent that was. That almost started out in the Papatototos. It was close. It's all the same person, really. Indeed. What are we talking about?

Good question. Good question. We'll be playing F1 overrated, underrated, which means we will be. at one point or another relying on the soundboard. The actual old one. The OG soundboard. We'll have to see if that works. Should Red Bull be worried at all about Max Verstappen

and GP Lambiasi's relationship at Red Bull? Alex Palo, rumours that he might be in line for a position in F1. We'll be discussing that. We'll kick off, though, with a few comments from Christian Horner regarding Red Bull and their development plans this season. Essentially, the plan is,

we're done now. We're quite happy. game over. Yeah, we're quite happy with where our car is. And he says not to expect a whole lot more in terms of upgrades. So we'd thought we'd have a look at that in the first instance, but also have a look at some of the other teams and question, should they be going all out this season?

Should they be parking it for next year? But we'll start with Red Bull. Is this the right call to essentially put what sounds like a pause on development? This is like the kid at school that always got his own work done the day. It was set. You know, it was like the teacher's given the homework, aka the 2023 season. and Christian Hall has gone home and immediately done his homework.

And he's like, ha, over the summer break, I can relax, I can put my feet up, where he's hoping that every other member of the grid has kind of left it to the last minute and it's now scrambling to, oh, what is this to me? Oh, what's four plus seven? He's got a deal with the teacher that you already knows what 2024's homework is. Yeah, he's got a jump on it already. My point here is, I think they've nailed the timeline. They're obviously running with this slight, and we say slight,

because after the removal of the wind tunnel time they got for winging the title anyway, that extra 10% wasn't huge, it wasn't even actually 10%. It was 10% what they originally had, which turned out to be 7% because they had 70% wind tunnel time. So quick math.

Quick math, 63% in total. We had a lot of percentages on the last podcast. We did, yes. We're kicking it off again. They call me percent man. They don't. So my point here is that they're trying to make the most of the fact

that their wind tunnel time is limited. They need to make sure they're using their facilities to get the best jump, because otherwise, that advantage that they've currently got will rapidly decrease going into the new season. And they don't want the likes of Askin Martin, McLaren, the Seige's, Ferrari, the pack is so big now that's right behind them,

which is great, but also it must be terrifying for them, to jump them. Because if they were to continue focusing and pushing towards the end, you never know. They might walk into the next season and go, ah, we've got no time left. Ah, ah, oh no, got nothing left. So my point here is the fact that they've absolutely crashed it.

They've nailed the timeline. The title is essentially, They could not win a race all season again, and they've won both titles, you know, unless it absolutely implodes on them, which, you know, I can't see it happening, really. You have to be a, we have a crazy man to put money on that happening. Max Verstappen's long-lost brother would have to go into the car. Yeah, Vax Mastappen.

Yeah. You know how he is. Can't drive. Yeah, exactly. And even then they still might win. Yeah. Yeah, well, you never know. My point being here that they're in such a luxurious place.

When I say luxurious, it's not like they haven't earned it. like they haven't worked bloody hard to get the car in the team exactly where it is. And whether you like it or not, listeners, whether you think boring or not a fan of Macs in the team, you've got to pat them on the back and say they've absolutely crushed it. And you've got to remember again, they're an energy drink company. They're not a Ferrari. They're not on Mercedes. So the fact they've come out here and they've nailed it this much allows them the

privilege to step back and go, we'll focus on the new car and only the new car now. What it does mean is if the teams we're going to discuss later do decide to only focus on the 2023 car, we might see some mixed up results come the end of the season. We kind of saw it last year when, of course, we got the Magnus and Pole and one in Brazil and Red Bull didn't look as dominant. But I mean, is that enough to really spice up the season? It might be enough to spice up the fight for second place, which is kind of what we're all looking at at the moment. What do you think, man? Yeah, I think your point on last year is right in that it seemed to be early part of the season, Ferrari Red Bull, barely closed, not too much to separate them, mid-season, which is kind of

what we've just had. Red Bull utterly crushed it. And then, yeah, by the end of the year, some of the other teams, particularly Mercedes, came back into it a bit. So it was almost a bit of a one of those curves, went a bit like that. Big wave.

Big wave, yes. In which case, yeah, we might well, I was going to say, see the same thing again this year, but they kind of started out at the top again this year as close to last year. Yeah, this is absolutely the right call, because it doesn't matter whether you win a championship by 100 points. five points, 500 points, it's a championship. You win, you win.

You win. In the record books, it will look exactly the same. And Max Verstappen will have another driver's championship to his name. Red Bull will have another constructor's championship to his name. The actual details of how many points it is, it's kind of a vanity project. If they wanted to go after winning every single race in the season... Do you think it will be unbreakable? If they decide it to only focus on 23, you think anyone will ever break it again?

If they won 23 out of 23 due to losing him in the season, in China. It's hard to see because if they were to get that far, you just need so much, you need so much luck to get to that point. There is a lot of luck at that point, isn't there? And even Red Bull this season, who have been by far the best team and Verstappen's been by far the best driver, even they have needed a little bit of luck to get to this point. Or maybe not a little bit of luck, but not a lot of bad luck to look at it the other way. There is a big difference between good luck and having a lot of good luck and just not getting bad luck, I suppose, yeah.

So, like, imagine Saudi Arabia, Vastappan starts 15th there. Yeah. Let's say that's Monaco. Yeah. You ain't coming through. There's, there's, there's, there's, the season gone. And Perez doesn't manage to get the league of the Grand Prix. Or Australia, last lap.

Something happens. You're on the wrong part of the corner. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, that's not to take anything away from Red Bull. We've been phenomenal all season, but certainly you need some luck to get a perfect record. So, yeah, if they were to see this out, it would be very difficult. for anyone to beat them.

But I don't think it's in their best interest to try and necessarily do that. I do think that saving what they've got for next year is more logical. And if they were chasing history, if they were chasing that perfect 100% record, fair play to them if they do it. But if they are looking just at that as the reason for development, it's not wise, I don't think. Something that is also quite interesting that we haven't really had for a little while because we're now settled into these regulations is nothing is changing.

with the cars between the year and the new year. So in theory, they could apply all of the upgrades for next year on the current car to test them if they wanted to. They wouldn't really be jeopardising too much. No, exactly. Yeah, they've got multiple free hits the rest of this season. Get it wrong every race if they want to. Pretty much.

You know, the championship is all but sewed up in both regards. So, yeah, they can use this time wisely. It's just, I can understand them using the same philosophy that Mercedes deployed. Why wouldn't you? It worked perfectly for them. Yeah. The irony is it was always the other way around. Red Bull were brilliant, or at least much better, in the second half of seasons. You remember Max Verstappen's early years, nearly all of his wins took place at Mexico, Malaysia, Brazil, Brazil.

Like all of these tracks that happened or happened at the end of seasons. Five or six. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a lot of the time why Mercedes has never got that dominant record that people think that they, you know, you look back and go, well, Miss Sagan's going to have won every race of the season because of this exact thing. By the summer break, like, stopped and going, we'll have next year now. Thank you very much. I can't remember the stat from a year or two ago, but certainly before Vestappen entered his dominant run over the last couple of years, the percentage of wins that he had that was second half of the season wins was remarkable.

Yeah. And now... Another percent. Exactly. But we have just completely flipped it, baby and reverse it, as you might say. It's a classic line, hey. Flip your baby and reverse it. really knowing it means. Not in a parental sense, anyway.

We'll move on. Yeah, quickly, please. So overall Red Bull probably right in doing what they are doing. Cut your losses. And it's a very small loss. What should Mercedes do? Yeah, this one is actually, I would argue, the toughest one of the entire grid. The ones further back, you know, it feels like a big of an obvious answer that we might get to. But Mercedes are arguably the more consistently close team to Red Bull.

They haven't always been the second fastest car at every single race. And I argue that's more car specific. but across the whole season, you look at, especially Lewis Hamilton this year. They've rarely been worse than the third best. Oh, yeah, yeah. And even then, a lot of the time, maybe it's kind of because of one small thing

that slightly put them out of running. You know, McLaren had that jump when both Piascary and Norris picked up in the upgrades. And within a couple of races, Hamilton's right back there again, right? He got the first pole outside of Red Bull for, God knows how long. It wasn't the McLaren to do that.

And then obviously very close again in SPAR. So, Mercedes is tough. And it depends if they would, want to run the marketing vanity route of, we still got a win, and they might get a win if they really push hard. But it also depends on just how close their theory is for this year's car to next year's car. And we saw how big of a change they've made already.

You don't remember that in Saudi Arabia, they were running no side pods. They changed their whole philosophy across three weeks. And they came to Australia and they went, this is how the director is going to be. Now we're going around a d'Anamore. And they said it, Red Bull-focused approach. full side pogs, a lower rake on the car, the rear wing playing a more pivotal role in how the car's performance stands. And so it's quite interesting to know if they are going to, over the summer break, go fooling on development for this year to try and seize some power back

and maybe really solidify P2 because obviously it's still up for grabs and they will want to finish second place. Or do they go, you know what, we're changing our philosophy entirely again going into 2024. We'll happily take a third place. It doesn't hurt us financially to take a third place because of the giants that they are. If you're, if you're a hearse, for example, when you do need that money, that cash coming in, you might go, now or second place. In theory, if that was ever possible, you know, but my point here is, Mercedes could afford to take a fourth place and financially, they're fine. They'll roll into next year with no problems at all. And actually, they'll get more wind tunnel

time if they were to do it. Might be better. There's a little part of me that thinks, just lift off, you know, we'll take it back to them next year. And then for the 2020, 26 time, you've got great development. So I actually think, back it off, Lassagis, full power into the new season, try and challenge Red Bull, please. It's genuinely a question about the wind tunnel time because certainly, if you were to present to the board

or whoever, maybe Toto Wolf, and say, look, we finish third or fourth, and it's only a risk of finishing third or fourth, we cost, you know, we lose out on... About $10 million. Yeah, let's say $10 million, but we have a 10% bet, better chance of winning next year.

I think they take that. A million a percent for a company like Mercedes is chump change. Exactly. And they were at a point where they were before the cost cap, spending probably twice, if not three times as much. They're making a saving every year at the moment. They are spending so much less than they ever did when they were winning that actually if there are these sort of penalties to incur, then so be it.

I think that Mercedes, the concept is absolutely very, vital. Yeah. Regardless of whether they're winning, losing somewhere in the middle, they just have to do everything they possibly can to get onto the right concept. Maybe they're already there. Maybe they're not. But there's no point from their perspective, wasting time on something that isn't going

to end up paying dividends for them. Yep. Agreed. And I think with Mercedes as well, they were winning for so many years that Toto Wolf and indeed the whole organization has bought itself a bit of time. or it's not one Ferrari, right? So, well, exactly. Or like Alpine.

Yeah. So we've got Alpine who are, you've had, Othmar Saffan hour saying we're only 40 races into a 100 race plan. Still got those ridiculous things I've ever heard. But if they had just come off multiple championships. If they won seven in a row, they'd give them 100 probably. Yeah.

Because you've shown that you should have the confidence in them based on previous success. I think Mercedes have bought themselves time to say, look, we might not win this season. And I'm not saying that would be acceptable within the team, but I think it would be allowed to a point where if it's towards the greater good, they'd probably say, yeah, okay with it. Something that has intrigued me, and I don't know if this has really been picked up, but I think two senior engineers have been poached from Red Bull over the last two weeks.

It's not made major news. And weirdly, I saw it on LinkedIn because my mother sent me a screenshot of the person changing their job role. The insider of my mum. Yes. Well done. Don't misphrase that. That could be weird.

But yes, I've started to do what Red Bull did to them three or four years ago, which is still the best. And you know what? In F1, burglary is legal. Burglary is legal. Theft is okay. Asterix. In F1. Only F1.

And actually not real theft just going out and spending more money on people. Yeah. Which is fine. But I'm excited. That means that they're going out there and they are doing. what is the dirty work. They're putting in the dirty work to hopefully reap the rewards.

It's not just putting strength into their team over Red Bull. You're limiting Red Bull because they're going to have to go out and rehire those positions and they wouldn't take off for Sagers again because surely they're going to go, nope, we're not doing that again.

Well, it's always been the cycle of F1. I think you made the point a few weeks back that you'll have a team like Red Bull, go out and poach all these clever people. Clever lads and lasses. And then in a few years' time, some other team will poach them. And then there will be poached by another team.

It's just a bit of a cycle. It's such a small world, that's the problem. Yeah. Where do you go when you're at the top? You go, well, I want to be at the next top. I think with Mercedes second place should mean close to nothing in that. Yeah, I would not be disappointed with fourth if I was Mercedes. If you, like we say, had the rationale of the wind tunnel time, I would admit,

if you said to Lewis Hamilton and George Russell, lift off and we're going, we're going Han on 2024 for this exact reason. And you lay out the reasons why I think they would understand. I mean, I don't think Russell would understand going ham. He might, he might misinterpret that. And Lewis is vegan. So neither of them know how to go ham. Damn.

But yes, I think... Corn. Corn is the way forward. Not an endorsement. Move on. Yeah, so I think overall that second should mean absolutely nothing to them in that their objective is be as close as you can to the championship leader and become the championship leader.

Yeah. So you could be second, but be a mile behind, or you could be third and be 10 points behind. The second place doesn't matter. It's how close they are to usurping Red Bull. Great word. Usurping. I love a usurp. You love a usurp.

It's a great word. Thank you. So, yeah, whilst they are second, it doesn't mean a great deal because they are so far behind the leaders that in other years, they would be that distance behind Red Bull and be fourth. Yeah. So I don't think the championship position should mean all that much. The one thing you did say about Hamilton and Russell, I mean, does the Hamilton situation is intro, because we still got the contract outstanding. Oh, God.

There is a question about how far would a win go for Hamilton this season. It's been a while. We saw how much the pole position helped him out in terms of motivation. He loves any result, right? It picks him up. Does he need a win? Yeah, need. I don't know.

But you're right. I mean, in terms of maybe the longevity of his career of how long he wants to put up with this, if you said, you only have one season with us, your entire career where you didn't get a win, that's pretty great to say. But if it starts to drop off two in a row,

three in a row, you're like, well, what's the point? I've won everything there is to win. Do I really just keep sticking out for these seasons? Did you hear, and you got poached by Ferrari? They did approach him? Ah, it'll come back around again next year.

Every year, twice a year, every year. It's like the Queensburg. birthday when she was about. There's two every year. It's like the, yeah. You know, the Royal Family get rolled out, aka Lewis Hamilton to the Ferrari. The Summer and Winster Solstice is... That's it. That is it. The clocks have gone forward.

Do you want to come to Ferrari? Clots go back. All right. What about now? Ferrari. We'll actually love to see him in Reg for one season, but I would want him to win. Yes. Just because it would be quite a magical thing. Anyway...

Speaking of Ferrari. What do they do? Now, Mercedes was tough. I think Ferrari needs to follow the path. of the Vass, you know, the Freddie Vass way of work needs to be instilled. And I still think that's very much in a early process. And there are some people blaming Frederick for how their season has begun. You know, they're very up and down. The strategy has seen some leaks. Despite it starting well, I thought, you know, the Saudi play, where they absolutely sold Ashtam Martin, a dummy. And it was a really, we praised it massive. Yeah. So they really did a good job.

we've lost a bit of that recently. You know, we've had science again, dictating the play, and it's not just all about car and development. They've got a lot of cultural problems that still need working out. They've just lost Semeckis? Yes. Yeah, we're going to Al-Fatari. So that's another key member.

Big Bonotto, rumoured, of course, for Alpine. I want to see it happen. We're going to be talking about that again and other show if that happens because that's QC content. Also, if you could get that done before we get back to racing, that would be good because... It's another topic. Like the topics.

You know, it's hard on summer break. We're still committed to two episodes a week, don't you worry? But... It's slow talk to... Any help as much appreciated. Should we talk about what might be coming up next Sunday while we're here? Yeah, that's a good point, actually. I was going to...

I was going to wait until the beginning of the second topic when I realized I'd forgotten to do it at the beginning of the show. Yeah, we'll be doing a Q&A episode next Sunday. So, if you would like your question to be considered for... And it could be about F1. It could be about not F1. Whatever you want to ask us, basically, we'll try and cover it. You've got multiple options to get your question in.

So firstly, we'll put it out on social if it's not already out when you're listening this episode. So yeah, keep an eye on a couple of the social channels for that. I think we'll use Question of the Week. Late Breaking F1. Late Breaking F1 everywhere. So keep an eye out there. Spotify as well.

there is a what did you think of this episode poll that appears in every single episode that we do. Use that for a question. We will review those. It's very clear. Good job Spotify. Yes. And Discord as well. Let us know via Discord if you want to reach us there.

So you've got three options. Three. Three. Use whichever one you want and we'll consider it for as part of the Q&A next Sunday. My dad did that yesterday. Did he really? He went three. at the dinner table and I love that it's caught on.

Yeah. It's officially part of culture. It's going to be everywhere. Yeah, folks, the questions again about F1 or us or about what we think about other things or other motorsport variations. Of course, we are interested in. We just don't talk much about it. So get your questioning. You might be featured it.

It won't be the whole episode. We know that some people don't love an entire episode of Q&A. Just a larger topic. Yeah, exactly. We've got to feel the time, folks. Ferrari. Yes, Ferrari. Sorry, we're on the very fast, Freddie Vass culture train.

and, you know, the man has got previous for strong results, and arguably his timing Formula One has actually been his least successful period as a kind of, you know, team leader, engineer, whatever you want to put him down as. He's a genius regardless. And he needs to stamp his mark. Now, I think from Ferrari's point of view, to get yourselves up and running, it gives you some actual period of success, which, of course, is coming up to nearly 20 years since they had their last proper bout of success now

in terms of the Riking and victory, which is not a big one either. This is a long time. It's a tiny little blip before Schumacher obviously popped up in history. They need to get that right. So I think Ferrari, even more than Mercedes, being off this season.

Both drivers are around for a bit, reassure science, keep him in that second seat. LeCleur, who will, just like torturing himself at the moment. Yeah. And then writing classical music about it. Stockholm Syndrome.

Yeah, literally will never leave and will sing about it. I don't know if he sings, just plays the piano. Mine in class, or no, maybe we'll get her on the show. True.

Sure, that would be a crossover. I'm trying to think what the Ferrari version of Stockholm syndrome would be. I'm currently leaning towards Marinello Madness. Oh, I'm not going to about it.

I like that. All right. Yeah, I do agree with you for the most part. I do think even with the blips of the last couple of races, strategy-wise, they have been better this year.

It is an improvement. It is an improvement. It's not perfect, but it is an improvement. And overall, I think, much any time they've tried a double stack this year. It's worked.

Their pit stops have generally been very good, I think, and an improvement on last year. So overall, I would say those are the things that need to be focused on more than anything. So as an example, so Freddie Vass, we've said multiple times this year, the performance of the car isn't necessarily an indictment on what he's done because he came in too late to influence the development. and in terms of where that car specifically is. However, he has been in the position long enough to influence strategy,

to influence culture, to influence pit stops. And all of those things generally have got better. So I think what they need to do is just almost don't get overly distracted by the results at this point. And just keep going. And maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But I think they just need to give Freddie Vass the time to actually execute his vision. Yeah, I mean, when you're building a house, you put the foundations in first. You don't put the roof on first. And I think the foundations are all right. They're being laid.

And I think from that point of view, you know, you've got to start building the walls and, you know, the insulation or whatnot. This is another silly analogy. But the point is 2024, you start building the walls up and you start laying the flooring. And that's the point that he needs to get at. You know, I've nailed the foundation. I'm happy with my team members now. The drivers are good. The strategy is on point. And now we start to really build out the direction of the car going in and how we want to target a championship. This year for Big Vass is a right-off, I think. Not a proper right-off.

Obviously, they still want the cash. They still want the prestige of being in the top two or three. Because we know what the Ferrari fans are like. They demand the best every year. And that's fine with their history and the money they've spent. I understand why. And I think it's great to demand the best from your team. But I think you need to be realistic about this culture change is huge.

It's not just a new team boss. It is a real, you know, you've cut the head off the snake. and then you've turned to a lion to run the team. It's not even like you've got another snake doing it. Again, another weird analogy. We'll run with it. Okay, snakes can't run. True.

It's a very good point, that. My point is give him time. I think Ferrari more so. There may be any other team in this top bunch need a focus on the next couple of years. We'll just do a quick run through of a few more teams. Astor Martin, who, I don't know if you're going to like this comparison or not, and apologies to anyone who doesn't understand English Premier League football.

the Newcastle United former giant quick growth on a resurgence on a resurgence with some cash I don't think you're wrong and I think you know just like Newcastle United last year

fought with the big boys beat a couple of them you know finish behind a couple of them how do you now prep to go again it's all well and good doing it once how do you stop the fatigue the rot setting in

how do you keep that innovation moving forward and you get rid of Lank Stroll is how you do it. Well, that's a point. I'm not sure Newcastle can do that, but... anyhow, if you're listening, get rid of a long stroll. In all serious,

has asked them, Martin, what do they... Is it just looking at that second season and saying, we can't fall back? What do they look at? I think it would be... Not a disaster,

but if they end up finishing fourth or fifth this year, then all that early glory at the start of the season, a waste. Oh, it looked good. And maybe for Lawrence, the fact that that many people swarmed into Askin Martin garages

and wanted to buy the car. And from a marketing point of view, yeah, great. But in terms of the actual season performance, what's the point of spending all that money, nicking all those engineers from other teams, investing in your giant facility that's being built to finish one place above where you finished anyway beforehand where you put barely any of that investment in place?

I think McLaren, who we were going to discuss, could easily that time when they're allowed to fall back again and jump forward again. Ashton, I think, are the ones that need to maintain it. But they've got what they're magic and somehow bring that into the new year as well. It's not just a lift off to coast, have fun, smash 2024. I think they need to prove that they could do it across the whole season.

Yeah. I agree with you. It's interesting how recency bias works with Aston Martin in that if you had, let's just say in January, you said exactly where Aston Martin would be in the championship at this point. Don't say when the results happened, but just say this is how many podiums they've got, this is where they are in the position.

Everyone would be like, wow. Are you kidding? And because it all happened at the beginning of the year and it's kind of fallen back from that, everyone's like, oh, they're doing all right, aren't they? But in reality, they've made such a big jump from where they were last season. But yeah, the whole point of it is they could try and push on this year

and, I don't know, make history for the Silverstone team and secure their best finish ever. But it was always a long-term thing in that they just need to, they want to belong with the big boys permanently. Yeah. That has to be the overall car. And with the Honda transition coming,

they need to put themselves in a place where the car is ready to fight and they hope the engine can match that. Exactly. They need to basically hope their philosophy works for 2024 that they're already using and apply all their upgrades to the car that they're then going to carry over.

They can't be one of these teams, I think, that goes, stop the philosophy now, new philosophy next year. I don't think they've got it in them. And then just a quick line on McLaren before we go to a break? No, I think McLaren need to just consolidate and actually follow what Masegis are doing.

I think it is kind of now work to fight up front because we saw this in 2020, 2020, where they were with Ferrari, right? They were suddenly fighting to be the second or third best team and they were really close with the with, you know, had Mosegis a Red Bull and then Ferrari and McLaren were very much fat team for the final podium

spot. Yeah, once the last race I think. Right? And then all of a sudden they dropped off again. And we saw them in the last two seasons. They've started almost the second worst, slowest team on the grid. You can't be having that every time. They need to now go, our core, philosophy is great. They've got this new team structure where they've almost got three heads that run it. I think that's great. Makes sense. You've compartmentalised your

responsibilities. Experts where experts should be. Makes a lot of sense to me. You need to now go. Pause. 2024 is now the focus. Landon Norris is saying also win races and championships with you. He's giving you the benefit of the doubt. You've got to deliver. Same with Oscar Piascri. He won't sick around for two, three more years. If every single season, you go, do you mind just finishing 15th for the first four races of the season? And we must then get out of podium. That's not a good culture to maintain. Yeah, particularly in Norris's case as well, it would be really tricky to go back. Because, I mean, the last few races, Belgium excluded, have been the utter peak for Norris

at McLaren to this point, which he's had a good deal of patience at this point. If he were now to have worse than that again, I don't know how much patience, because he's almost seen what it can be at that point. If it happens again and they say, we go into 2024 and we get to, uh, Canada next year and they haven't picked up a top five again. I think Papa Horner. See you later, Sir Gare's. I'll take that, see it off your rookies.

Interesting stuff. We'll leave the listeners on that thought. We'll take a short break. We'll be talking about Mercedes a little bit more and Toto Wolf right after this. Okay, interesting comments from Toto Wolf. He believes that the title stolen from Mercedes, his words don't mind, just before everyone comes at me for that. The title stolen from Mercedes has made us underdogs that people cheer for.

Would you agree with that quote? Now, when you sent out the lovely sketchy, I thought I'd do some ground research on this. Okay. And I have asked several people that I'm close to who also follow Formula One, this quote, what did you make of it? A bit of market research. Oh, you know, I thought I'd just get, you know, the listeners point of view. Focus group.

Yeah, you know, just we'll go spitball it. Just imagine you're in a board room now. We'll just be a little whiteboard. It's just your mum. Hello, mum. My point here is a lot of snorts of, all right, a little bit of a, are you sure? This is pure Formula One recency bias. You have one year where it didn't go your way.

And I'm not disregarding how it went your way or didn't. We've been through Abu Dhabi, 2021. We've been there, yes. My point is, you didn't win a title. You still won the Constructors title that you did. You know, remember you took 50% home of the wingings that you could have done. He then came second and third in the drivers. So not bad.

It's not bad. I think, Toto, you've misunderstood the atmosphere around Red Bull being dominant. I don't think that suddenly means let's make it about Mercedes and then go, oh, we're all longing for Mercedes to suddenly be on top again. We just, I will take any team on the grid to fight Red Bull every single race of the season. I don't care who it is. You know what? There's plenty of teams.

Alpha Romeo would love it. Williams, I would adore it if they suddenly spun to the top. we're fighting the Red Bull. It'd be incredible. I would love it. Much more than Mercedes. Well, look out, Monza. They can.

One, two. Logan Sargent's King of a wing. That is not my bold prediction, if I'm honestly. My point here is, Toto, you're not an underdog. You've won eight

Constructors' titles in a row. They tried to paint themselves as underdogs when they were winning the titles. Oh, we don't know if we've got the pace. We won the last nine Grand Prix in a row. Might be third, yeah. Oh, wait, this can be touch and go for.

us wins by 30 seconds. Louis Hamilton gets the fastest lap on 40 lap old tires. You know, we've been there, we've watched it, we've gone through this Mercedes dominance. Maybe in another 15 years, if you're finishing third or fourth every year, you might suddenly become an outside chance of winning something, and we might will you to that point, but we ain't got short memories. We ain't forgetting.

You know, I know again, recently Bias says that some of you, listening, might be already bored of Max Verstaff and the Red Bull. To me, it's still different to Mercedes winning every single race, and I'm not saying I want it forever, but, I wouldn't mind if next year, like I said, we had a McLaren Ashton Martin fight for the title, and both Red Bull and Mercedes were nowhere, and they fought for fourth place.

It really wouldn't bother me at all. So sorry, Toto, you've got all the money in the world. You're one of the largest, if not the largest automobile seller in Europe and one of the biggest worldwide. Shut up. Shut up. You've literally got a perfect scenario in your life. It could not be much easier.

Just get the job done, mate. I have to say, I don't have the backing. of expert market research in the same way. I really go the extra mile. I know. I need to put more into this. But having said that, I still do largely agree in that, I think if you were to revise the quote a little bit,

and this is kind of speaking to what you were saying about, you want someone to challenge Matt Zastappen and Red Bull. If the quote was Mercedes lack of pace makes us underdogs that people cheer for, you'd probably be right. Race to race, yeah. If you think about the poll position Lewis Hamilton had at Hungary. Incredibly exciting moment.

Incredibly exciting. People were all over it. Yeah. But it wasn't, I don't think Abby Debbie, 2021 has anything to do with the fact that people were stoked about that. It's just because they aren't dominant and someone else is. And it was a break of that dominance. I think it's as simple as that in that if you were to take,

if you were to take Hass or Williams or Alfa Mayo and they were to win a grower on previous season, you would get a 10 out of 10 reaction from 95% of fans. I think even Red Bull fans will enjoy it. I think even Verstappan fans would probably go, that was cool. Don't do it again, but enjoy that one off. You'd almost get like the epitome of a reaction for most teams. Yeah, it would be the perfect scenario for Formula One.

And then you would probably have like McLaren maybe a slightly let, but still. Claren Askin Martin, 75%. And then a little bit less for Mercedes, but there would still be a lot of, based on the run that Red Bull have had, There would still be a lot of, you know, happiness. Happiness. Happiness. Yeah.

But I don't think, but you just notice that the worst the team is, the more of an underdog they are, therefore the better reaction they get. It's got nothing to do. It's quite literally how the phrase underdog works. Yes. The worse you are, the more of an underdog you are. Yeah. I'm saying is if you were to remove Red Bull, lads, you are winging.

So I just don't think that the quote-unquote stolen title, and I'd be very honest. We're not debating that right now. we're not debating it right now, you know. But he's... Stop the silence. I don't know what to say. Yeah. I... He's... It's not relevant.

It's not relevant. How many people flocked to Mercedes as soon as they lost that title? How many... Right, okay. We're angry. We're angry now. Let's say Mercedes were dominant

this year and last year. Yeah. And it was... And they still had the title. or stolen in Abu Dhabi 21. Would people be like, oh, I'm still clamoring for a... When we get to this point in this season, the Hamilton's won every race this year,

and people would still be saying, oh, still going for those underdog Mercedes showing karma, Red Bull, karma. Yeah, could you imagine if Lewis Hamilton at this point was a nine-time world champion? And they went, that should be 10 every single race. Underdogs. You would, would you?

You go, I'm loving this. If you're a Hamilton fan or a Mercedes fan or a Russell fan, who might have been a one-time champ. Had it gone on, you don't know. Yeah, I think Toto's got this properly wrong. This scrappy little underdogs. We're coming for you.

It's like Godzilla turning up to like a load of chickens and going, we're the underdog. It's like, are you? Oh, that little upstart Goliath. You know, it's like me standing next to a polar bear and going, this polar bear is the underdog. He's definitely got a chance against,

fan in a fight. I just can only see Papatoto looking out at the seas of people cheering on Hamilton's pole and thinking, we're the underdogs. They love us. They're getting behind us as a result of 2021 rather than just we don't want to see the same team and same driver winning every week.

And the same with any sport. You might have misread this one. Or he, well, it's more likely, he hasn't misread this. It's just, it sounds better. He's desperately trying to spin the situation his way. which it's marketing 101 baby. Christian Hawkins said that him and Toto are like the old two

like types of team boss and actually everyone else is very much engineering and engine focus now and those two are both marketing led him and Zach Brown I guess. What do you make of that quote? I mean, I think it's a fair point. A lot of the new team bosses are very much from the technical side of the company which again I assume how much of an F1 engineering sport F1 is it makes sense to understand that point.

But I don't think, I think a team leader, someone who's so naturally good at building the culture and running a team, does you a lot more than having an engineering focus leader. I'd rather have a real, you know, leader up front who knows nothing about building the car, but knows how to put the right people in the right places and understands how I build the right culture

and drive that forward, you know, rather than having someone that understands what particles of air does over a piece of a car. I mean, avoiding whether it worked or whether this is the exact right example. But Ferrari kind of went that way, didn't they? Yeah, Arriva Benet. Well, they went down marketing, yes.

Yes. So Arriva Benet was like... He was marketing 101. I don't think you really understood too much could do with the actual physics of the car. And they went about as far in the other direction as you could possibly get when they had Bonato on board. So I guess there might be a point behind it.

Yeah, and I mean, look at the way that McLaren have now done things, right? They kind of went down. Zach Brown was almost... It's still kind of the face of the company, but he's now lowered that level to be like, hey, we've got Stella in place, who of course has come from a technical side, side of before that, also came from quite a technical understanding of the sport. Hasn't done them wonders.

And all of a sudden, when Zach Brown's going, split it all up, I'm kind of still leading this from behind the scenes. They've picked up their form again. So, I mean, I think it's very person-to-person-specific. I think you can have a brilliant mind like James Vowse, who does understand the technical side of things very, very well, who is also a brilliant team leader. You know, he's one of my favourites on the grid at the moment.

But Christian Horgan probably doesn't have a clue how, you know, the inside of the car actually works from a technical level. But it hasn't stunted their most successful team other than Masege's in the last 15, 20 years. Yeah, it's worked out all right for them in summary. Okay, we'll take another short break right about now and we'll be discussing a bit on Alex Palo, the other side. It's a rare topic for us.

Yeah, it is. Now I have to say, before we get into this topic about Alex Palau, who is currently leading the In-Car series, I put this schedule together on Friday, as we're recording this today. What day is recording day? Recording day is Sunday. So I did not know at that time that all of the storm around Palau was actually going to come out this weekend. Hurricane Palau? I called it.

Yeah. I didn't even know I'd call it. You are a, but I called it. Miskick Ben. I just thought, all right, it would be a good topic to discuss. Alex Palo. He's been linked to a couple of of F1 teams. Is he belonging on the grid? And now, to give the context about

what's happened over the last couple of days, some background for those who don't know. Yeah, so Alex Palo leading the championship in Indycar and leading it by a long way doing a very good job. He has, going back to last year, been in a bit of a contract dispute with his current team, Chip

Gannasi, about his move, potential move to McLaren, in IndyCar at least. But of course, he's already part of McLaren's program when it comes to F1 development. He's done a, was it the Mexican Grand Prix last year? Yeah, he did the test run. Yeah, he did the FP1 run there.

So he's already got links to McLaren, and the plan was he was going to move to McLaren in IndyCar next year. He's decided, nah, don't want that. Don't want to do that. So it looks as if that's not happening. He split with his management company. So they're gone. And the question is, what does that mean? So the original question was, is there an option on the F1 grid for him?

And does this recent saga change your opinion on it? I mean, when you're leading a whole championship, and one that is as pivotal and shows great skill as Indycar, you know, he's not leading the South Cornel Karting Championship here. I am, so that can't be him. Incredible, things from you. Damn, yeah. I need to sign up to the next race.

I've just finished second at every race. Oh, right, yeah, that's good. Yeah, I've done Estabana. Brilliant. This is great, chat. Hacks below is doing a fantastic job at what is a bit of a star-study line-up in IndyCar at the moment. There's a lot of great talent going there.

You know, both new and old, right? And the likes of Scotty D, you know. How many races are he won in consecutive years now? Is it 21? 21 seasons. 19, it might be. Might be 19. That's a lot of years in a row.

There's a lot of talent at the moment in Indycar. And to see him leading by such a margin really shows a test of both his oval and street-level racing, of course, you'll challenge on both sides when it comes to IndyCar. And for those who don't know, IndyCar is a bit more of a spec series. You know, all the shatters are the same. It's more set-up base so that you have to drive on. So his will-to-will knowledge, pretty good, right?

You argue he was getting the best results out of the same car as everyone else. So well done to him. And I can see why some Formula One teams might be casking an eye over in that manner to see this guy's actually consistent, gaining results, pulling ahead, and young enough that has the time to transition into this more Euro. European, and I say in quotation marks, centric sport of Formula One. Now, McLaren are doing a great job at putting drivers in the bin at the moment, whether they choose to you or not.

Ricardo costing what we believe to be about $17,18 million, to kick him out of the team after they spent a fortune getting him in the team. And now Alex Palo, who is arguably the biggest talent coming from the Americas as a continent's selection. You know, you've lost him now. He's basically told you, don't know thanks. for the FP1 drive, don't want you. Don't want you no more. I guess when you look at Oscar Piascary and I know Norris sitting in the car,

you think if those guys are going to be around for three, four years, what's the point in being loyal to that brand? And when you're leading with Chip Ganasi racing, why bother stepping down to McLaren anyway? There's no gain to being a part of that family. And I imagine most IndyCar teams will happily pick him up if, you know, he became an open member on the market. But if he wants to come and move to Formula One,

there's quite a few options that could go his way, but the difference is he's not stepping down from a place of, I want to succeed, I want to come into something. He is very much on the brink of potentially winning his first title. A second title. Oh, second. Yeah, yeah. Showtime that he won in 2020.

Look at him go. What a little, we're a little January. He is. A little jama. We are going countries. A little whipperslipper. So, you know, he's saying it once. He wants to do it twice.

After this season, would you want to take a move to somewhere like Hars? Of course, the American team that might have a seat open if they've been off KMAG, who isn't performing. at the moment. Where else does it go further up the up the road? Because you go somewhere like the possibly new branding Alpha Tauri. Again, there's a lot of drivers in those seats. And I think that might be risky for someone like Alpha Tauri to go, yeah, we'll have another name to the mix, which they tried to do with Hurtah, didn't they last year? Yes. Again, not really playing out. Audi, could they potentially go, you stay in your car for another

year, enjoy it, we'll bring you over as a possibly new driver. There's a lot of marketing potential there. The doors are ajar for him. it's a very tricky situation. I think it depends entirely on whether he wants to race in Formula One. That's what matters to him. Yeah, exactly. You know, in terms of Pillow's performances, you're right, that they have been unbelievably good this year,

because it is very difficult to separate yourself in Indy car. You still ideally need to be part of one or two or three very good teams, but it's very difficult to dominate the sport in the same way that it is. in Formula One. So the fact that he is over 100 points clear at this point, with a couple of races to go, and he will probably sew up the championship

in the next round or the next couple of rounds. It's remarkably impressive what he's been able to do. Now, before the whole Chip Ganassi, McCarron's saga of this time, rather take two of that saga, I guess, I figured that Hasse might be, the option, might be one of those out there, because they always seem more willing to try something a bit out of the box. It's a risk, but I think it'll be a bit of a steel with how good he could be.

And his FP1 run was promising. Yeah, I mean, he's, he's 26 years old. So he'd be coming in a, yeah, he's got plenty of years left. He's not. But he's more closer to the Nick DeVries age of joining Formula One rather than he would be a Bioscopi Astrid school. Yes, exactly, yes. And I think if you were a Formula One team, you would be a little bit worried by,

what Alex Polo did prior to moving to Indycast. Certainly his junior career in Europe was fine, but nothing... Nothing to write home about. Nothing special. So as an example, he was part of the same Formula 3 Europe season that Schumacher won. Yep. Mick Fatties, by the way. Mick Schumacher won that championship.

I think Schwartzman was runner up. Maybe Tickham was runner up. But Schwartzman and Tickton were both there, second and third in one. whatever order. And Palo, I think, finished seven for that year. So he's, he didn't set the world of light when he was coming up. So there would be question marks there, I think. But overall, I think his IndyCar form has at least warranted a chance in Formula One. All of his wins this year have come at street circuits or, or road courses. Not ovals. Not ovals, yes. Formula One doesn't have any of them if you run away. That'd be fun. I would love what

one-off F-1 Oval race. So certainly where you've got like Mid-Ohio, he's won at this year, he's won at Road America, he's won at the streets of Detroit. So all of the circuits that you would want someone to win at, I guess, if you're looking at them as a Formula One. The driver's circuits. Yes, the circuits that are most applicable to Formula One. So, yeah, I think from McLaren's perspective, I think Pallow has probably just realized, as

you've kind of laid out with the Piastrian Norris situation, that yes, they might have giving him an FP1 drive. Yeah. But if in Indy car terms, moving to McLaren isn't going to be a beneficial move for him right now, which doesn't seem to be the case,

is he going to, you know, I think McLaren have just been almost called out here. I'm not saying that contractually, I'm advising all drivers, don't go along with your contract, but certainly if a lot of

what McLaren have been saying is, hey, look, Formula One prospects. Yeah. I think Pallos probably just seen through that and gone, no, not really. I don't want to sit in the garage waiting every single race for someone to maybe have a shock move elsewhere, and I might get a chance to fill in. Because outside of, if you look at McLaren, right, they've got Colton.

I know Colton Hurter is not racing for McLaren, but he's as part of their... He's signed to them. Yeah, as part of the F1 sort of development programs. They've got, they've got Herta. Yeah. They've got Polo already. Yeah. They've got O Ward.

Yeah. They've also got Rossi and Rosenquist driving for the Indian. Half of the Indy car grid is essentially part of McLaren at this point. Yeah. You're not getting in. No. It's not happening. There's a large queue out the door. I have to say until...

Because Chip Gannasi, who is... Doesn't usually say much when it comes to contracts. The man likes to do his work on the track. He actually came out and very publicly bashed McLaren for this, which actually makes me think that Formula One isn't going to happen for him. Because if Formula One was likely the route for him, I don't think Chip Gannasi would have come out and almost defended him. Yeah.

I think he'd only defend him. if he's coming back next year. So I think overall he's probably not making a move. Or is it a last ditch ploy to go, maybe? I back, I rate you, I'm backing you,

please stay for another season, because I think what Chip Gnasi said, I very much respect the entity that is McLaren and its drivers, but I do not respect the management, which is a big thing to say from one racing company to another. You imagine, you know, Gene Hass coming out and saying that about Alpine or something,

right on the grid, right, organization. I would, I would like to see a, whether it's play or someone else, I would like to see some sort of crossover between IndyCar and F1 at some point. About time. Because, well, ironically, we've, there's been IndyCar this weekend, the Motor Speedway, and it's a crossover weekend they have every year with NASCAR. Yeah.

So you've got those two motorsports series. NASCAR, obviously US-wise is slightly bigger than Formula One still. The big boy. Yeah. And you've got those two series who do have this crossover. I can't remember if they call it a crossover weekend or something else. But that is what it is essentially. Be great to see.

Coates is right there. Try and do something like that. Indy car at Coet, though, is what, do they race around Coathe already? Yeah. So it will work already. Just tie it in. Okay. Moving on.

Yes. Vestappan. I'm aware of him. Have you heard of him? I have. He's all right, isn't he? He's not too shabby. And his engineer?

GP? Yeah, I think we all call him GP. Yeah, probably for the best. Jean-Pierre Lambiasso. Jaboui. Jabui. Jabui, yes. It's got a basic French name.

We saw the Belgian Grand Prix. I think, you know, there have been other races this year where the two of them have not necessarily got along at all times, but the Belgian Grand Prix was another step beyond that, I think. Are you worried at all? No. literally not worried at all. You think it's healthy.

I think that the team engineers who are very dedicated to one driver, you know, we've had these historic relationships. I argue that, you know, the most frequent one

they were all aware of is Hamilton and Bono, right? I think the best relationships that you see are where the driver cannot walk over the engineer. And I think we see

sites do it to Ricky, you know, on a regular basis where... Stop inventing. Stop inventing. What are you wrong about? That doesn't mean... That doesn't make sense.

You know, I'm going to dictate the strategy from the car. And it removes a layer of trust. It means that you're not working succinctly together. And you're not cohesive. And you need a cohesive team that's efficient that understands one another inside and out to get the best results in sport. GP telling off Max and being honest with them and going, look, you're fantastic what you do. But I'm here for a reason. Otherwise, they put me or you in there.

And we would just go, yeah, well done, Max. You dig it again. You know, because you may as well, to get a cheer league over the microphone. that point. He is going, look, Max, you remember he almost missed out on Q3, right? And he said, what do you want me to do, Max? Put you out on the tracks two seconds slower or get you running with no back through when everyone else has got a great lap time. That would, you'd be out. It's like the end of the day, it's your time to get into the top 10 and you've missed out on it, but we've put you on the track with the best resources at the best time. You do the work now.

And he put his foot down and I have no issue with someone's qualified as him and his experience as he is going, I'm doing everything I can, mate. You know, and if you're going to have a go at me, I will tell you how it is and be honest with you. And I think that's healthy. And Max even got out of the car and said, it's fine. I'd rather someone tell me how it is.

And he gets out of the car with a smile on his face and they have a chat. Christian Hawks come out and said, they're like an old married couple, but there's a reason why they're an old married couple because it works for them. It's a healthy relationship to not be around the bush. That's not lie to one another. Let's not try and put on a smile and face and hope that we get through it.

They genuinely know each other properly and go, I can say this. And it's not going to be a problem. us out of the car because we're both trying to win. And that's what they're both aiming for. So I respect it. I think it's healthy. I think it gives everyone a good chuckle.

I think everyone gives everyone laughing. I'm not saying I don't enjoy hearing it, but I think we're seeing a lot more of it because of the dominance and exposure that the staffing is now getting over the mic. We saw it with Hamilton, right? When Hamilton was winning, he was always on the team reggae.

You heard almost everything he said. He always heard everything Bono said coming back. Now Hamilton is at the top. You don't hear as much of that. This is the new version. I think it's very healthy. I'm glad we get to see it. Yeah.

I think it's necessary for someone to step in and tell him how it is. And I would be worried if they didn't have that in position, particularly with Vastappan, who it's not even a criticism or a... It's an observation. An observation on their part. Is that Vastappan is so headstrong and so confident. Yeah, it's intelligent as well. He's intelligent.

I think he does need that person to, to just say, look, this is how it is. Because regardless of what driver you are and how observational you are on the track, the engine is always got a better overview of the Grand Prix itself. And it's always been a question of how can you get those two

to combine with one another. So from a driver's perspective, they're able to say on the ground, this is what the tyres are doing, this is how everything's feeling. And then from GP's perspective, or indeed any other engineer's perspective, they've then got the capacity to say

this is how this person's race is going. This is where they've stopped. They've come out behind this driver. Because the driver's got no visibility. They don't know as soon as, you know, if you've got two drivers racing one another and the driver boxes and they're stuck behind three cars and can't get past them.

The driver who is still out on track doesn't know that. Unless you're Fangio Alonso watching the big screen. Apart from if you're Alonzo watching the big screen. But you're right. With that, you ain't got a clue. Yeah. So the driver might be making an ill-informed decision

if they are driving the strategy, whereas GP, I think, has the confidence and he has the, I think he has the, you know, Christian Horner will allow him to be the way that he is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is absolutely the right approach. I think if you look at someone like Lewis Hamilton,

just to compare Hamilton and Vestappen, because no one's ever done that. No, that's a new one. Yeah. You know, from Hamilton's perspective, if he often questions the decision of Pete Bonington, and he'll often say, these ties are still good to go for 10 laps or these tires are dead.

But generally speaking, he will always trust the team enough to go with the decision. Even if he does, I don't know, grumbles on the right word, but even if he does question it, and even if he does say afterwards... I think the best drivers do put up questions, and they do ask,

and they do go, are you sure, you know, we're working together, I'm the one in the car. Are you sure this is still the right thing to do? That's fine. Yeah. But by and large, Hamilton will, abide by, even if he doesn't agree with it in the moment.

I think with Vastappen, though, it is important to have that more authoritative figure to say, no, we're right on this. I think the further Vastappen gets into his career, the more he will be able to comfortably go. I've done 200 races at this point. I mean, you might have done that already. I don't actually have a number, but it's can't be that far off, surely. Yeah.

He's not there yet, but, oh. We're not here for that. You work it out in your mind. My point is, you know, Hamilton's doing that in his 30s, and I think if the stapping is still here, you know, we don't know what his career trajectory is or what he wants to do, but I think he would have more leeway to go disagree.

What can we do this? You know, and that's what I'm saying, you know, Hamilton gets to if the Stappan doesn't, that's just more, I think it will come more naturally to the Stapin the further into his career he gets. Yeah, with a longso. True. Yeah, very true.

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It is. It's a bit of a while since we've heard it, I think. Well, we're both in Cornwall. So we're here for the country in the seaside. I think that fits perfectly. The next time you get an ice cream, folks. Ask the ice cream man to play out the van. With a flake.

Yeah. Can you play F1 overrated? Yeah, I'll have an I-tiny, and an over-rated underrated jingle, please. And you know what they'll say? Sure, I'll do that for you, but I don't have any flakes. Okay, my soundboard doesn't work. I don't know.

The soundboard will be fun. Oh, yeah. I feel like this isn't quite on topic, but here we are. Overrated, underrated. We've got three random topics in front of me. They can be anything. They can be drivers. They can be teams.

They can be circuits. They can be systems. Whatever we want to choose within the world of Formula One. And it is our responsibility to say whether they are overrated or whether they are underrated or somewhere in the middle. The rare rated. Or the rare rated. It's really part of the game. No.

When we want to do a Harry Yead and be on the fence about something. Yes. Let's start with Toto Wolf. Do you think he's overrated or underrated at this point? I think he's still underrated. You're a reckon? I think there's a lot of people, and I get why, who, because of the dominance that they had, and obviously Hamilton's run, got fed up and criticised him.

And I think with 21 as well, you know, they got a bit moaning about him, but I do think that, and we will do it. I don't think people are willing to look past some of their basic complaints about how he maybe speaks on the radio, whatever, to look at the organisation that he, you've got to remember, he built this in a couple of years. It's always been him. He's always run that team. And the culture that he and skill gets all him

and also his management, not just of the F1 team, but of the wider sponsorship, how Mesaigis as an organisation works with the Formula One team. It's all him. He runs everything. I really don't think people understand

just how brilliant he is as a business person and a team leader. So I do think he's still underrated. I think I also think he's underrated because the title speak for themselves. But if you look at the list of drivers that have raced for Mercedes, I appreciate he wasn't quite there at the start, but he's been there for...

Essentially. Yeah, 75, 80% of the time. If you look at the drivers they've had since they returned to the sport in 2010, Michael Schumacher. Pretty good. Pretty good. Retired. Yeah. Didn't move to another team.

Yeah. Niko Rosberg. Pretty good. Pretty good. Retired. Yeah. Didn't move to another team. Yeah. Lewis Hamilton.

Yeah. He's still there. Pretty good. And he's pretty good. Yeah. Valdi Bottas. The exception. the exception, but we're still there for a long time.

Five years? That sounds about right. 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21? Yeah. Yeah, five seasons. And then George Russell's still there. Pretty good. So you've got not a very long list of drivers there, and either, they're still with the team.

Yeah. They didn't. So if any driver has wanted to move away from Mercedes, they haven't gone to another, they've gone into retirement. Yeah. Which is an indication that you're doing a pretty good job. Or they've Alchre Botas who let you do. do everything you need to do first before he then went,

okay, I'll now make it public and sign somewhere else. He gave the team all the time in the world to sort that out. I just think that's a pretty good indictment of where they're at. And it's all him. If you look at other teams, let's say Red Bull, Ricardo left them. I mean, I'm not saying it was a good choice, but he left them. He did.

And you look at Ferrari and Kimmy Reichenen and how that didn't quite play out really. second time round at least. Yeah, and that'll left them. Well, Alskid, but also there's, you know, the culture meant that he wanted to depart. Overall, lack of turmoil. Yeah. There really is a lack of turmoil when it comes to the Sele.

Mercedes issues are never personnel driven. Which makes me think he does a pretty good job. Yeah, and Toto's job is not to build the car. From a team boss to a circuit. Yeah. We haven't gone there yet this year. Zandvort. I think if I was,

to be given a lap all on my own to put the car, you know. Terrifying. For everyone. Turn one. Yeah. No breaking. A world has exploded. Honestly, I think that would be great.

It's a great track to do a one lap hot lap at. But if I'm talking about race level, I think it's a little bit overrated. Okay. I just think, we haven't been there enough times to really understand it, but I do think, would we have gone back there if Max Verstappen didn't exist? If he just, puff, we never knew of him, you know? Maxie. Correct.

Max, Max, most. No, Yoss. Yeah? Yeah, Yoss. Does I have any children? No, no. Other than the other ones. Oh, facts.

Sorry. Yeah, facts for Fafin. Yeah. I think it's a little bit overrated. Only just, but I don't think it's showing us any real belters since it's come back. And I don't think it's built for Formula One cars at the moment. Yeah. I think it's about right.

I've kind of gone in the middle as rated. The issue I think is that you kind of only have one overtaking spot, which is term one. There's not much else outside of turn 1, which, again, you can either blame the circuit or you can blame the current formula that we've got. Smaller cars are a lot of fun around there. Exactly, yeah. You have got other half overtaking opportunities. The RS on in the middle, following through the slightly, after the banked left turn,

you go down that weird. It's not really a straight, but it is kind of a straight line. You can get one down in there. I just think that, I think it's, if we're only talking about F1, I think for F1's sake, it's not built correctly for them. A random point where I was thinking about Zambor earlier. Very similar to Hungary, isn't it? Just generally.

I think if you were to class tracks, you would put Hungary, Monaco and Zanvort in the same pile. I think with Hungary and Zambor, you've kind of got the one overtaking opportunity. Yeah, down the start finger straight. Both of which can lead on a little bit beyond turn one. Yes, if you get to go into wheel through the corner, yeah. You've then got the rest of that where it's pretty difficult to,

make any... And then you've kind of got a sweeping corner, admittedly Zambor, this is a bit more sweeping, onto the main straight. I do like that they've set the DRS up to be around the corner, though. Yes. Terrifying. Yeah.

Okay, last one. The current point system that we have in F1... Overrated. Oh, boy. Yeah, I think that first winning seven points more than second is too much. Okay. And I think that it ends up... If you do get a dominant season, like what we're seeing,

it just inflates it. And I think, you know, I would like to see, I can't understand saying this, closer to the sprint race style where the points are, the gaps between each point was shortened. So it would still be one point for 10th, two points for 9th, four points for 8th, 6 points for 7th, 8 points for 6th, 10 points for 5th. And then I think it would go something like 12, 14, 16, and then maybe like 20.

Maybe that is even too much still again or something like that. But I do think that as much as I prefer the top 10 getting points, I don't want to go back to previous situations where maybe eight or even six get points. I do think just the gap is too much. I think the incentive of winning is still there regardless of how big or small the points gap is. It's not like a sprint race where you go, do I risk my old qualifying spot for one point to go from ninth to eighth? I do think that drivers will won a win, whether it's one point game or a seven point game. I disagree. I think it's underrated.

Fair. I love the current point system. It's still the best one we've had. Yeah, I would say, I agree with your point that. I don't think we want to go back to six or eight drivers getting points because I think 10 is, 50% of the grid is probably about spot on. I have seen some suggestions that maybe we should go beyond that and give points to all drivers, which actually, you know, I think we might leave that for another day to discuss

that as a concept. But, yeah, I think it's right. I do want points to matter. and actually I do want wins to matter. I do want the gap to be bigger between second and thirst because I will, I agree with your point that where you do have a dominant season, the gap can extend very quickly.

I agree with that completely. I just think that overall... That's not a fault of the point system. That's a fault of other areas of Formula One. Yeah. I just, I want wins to be the ultimate And I don't want the gap between first and second to be the same as, say, seventh and eighth or something like that. I want to see, yeah, wins matter as much as they can. If we did what I said where it was a four point gap, not a seven point gap, how would you feel about it?

So you're getting double what you get for every other position. Yeah, I would be okay with that. I'd still, I think, stick with what we've got. But I would, as long as it's bigger than any other position gained, that's something. Yeah. Interesting to know what people think about these, by the way. Let's know you're overrated underrated. Yes, indeed.

I think we'll close off the episode here. Of course, Q&A next Sunday as a reminder. So as a reminder of the ways in which you can get in touch with us, either via social, we'll put out a post of our question of the week. Just let us know what your question is. You can do so via Discord if you're in there, over 2,000 people in Discord, and the link is in the discrippy. And then also Spotify as well.

So if you are listening via Spotify, you will have a question and answer section, which will ask you, what did you think about the episode? Instead of, well, you can let us know what you thought about the episode as well, if you like. We like reading those. Yeah. But use that option to ask us a question that we'll use next week. Speaking of things that are happening, we've got a live show happening in Texas, mate. We do.

So tickets selling well. Over halfway sold. We are indeed. And we're still on the Patreon-only sales. So, you know, they will be going for general sale a week today. They will. So Sunday the 20th of August, it will come out to everyone. But if you want to go, oh, those tickets are selling,

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where we'll be having our games. They'll be merch to win. We'll be doing giveaways. There's a bit of a Q&A thing that I've decided all on my own. You get a complimentary drink with your ticket when you arrive. other drinks you can go and buy. There's some great food areas very nearby, some food vendors that you can go and choose from, which is fantastic.

And it's a really lovely little venue that we're kind of hoping to get for the whole evening. We've got it all booked out just for us for the whole evening. So there won't be any weird randos other than the three of us in there. And producer Kerski, of course. So come along. She's not that weird. We are. Yeah.

She balances us out somewhat. That's on Thursday the 19th of October. Literally the day before the action starts in Cota. So if you are going down for the. circuit of the Americas, the USGP, consider coming down on the Thursday and hanging out with us for the evening. We'd love to see you. We'd love to see as many of you as possible. Other benefits to Patreon as well. So if you do join Patreon, you do have the option to get those tickets early whilst they're still available. But also, we've got extra episodes or epsras. Epstras.

Epstress, two a month. Two a month. And we are recording the first of those for August this week coming. So you've already had beer with breaking this month. Got it early. Quite early this month, but we've also got the two Patreon episodes. That's for anyone on the middle and upper tier. So yeah. Best feel of breaking yet, I think. Yeah, oh yeah, it was a good one. Jopasquale, he was mentioned. Yeah, bizarrely. Yeah. And we also talked about the greater good with hot fuzz being a key topic. So if you talk, if you like movies, jump in. Late breaking F1 for all socials. Look at you go. Twitter. I'm so proud. Insta. Tiki-tock. down with the kids

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