The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Is keeping Sargeant for 2024 the right decision from Williams?

Episode Date: December 3, 2023

Ben & Sam discuss the recent news that Logan Sargeant has been re-signed at Williams for 2024, considering whether this is a long term solution or a short term fix for the team. They also cover Theo Pourchaire's F2 title win and whether he should be picked up by an F1 team, Hamilton's admission to thoughts of retirement, and Ricciardo's assertions that he is "re-energised" after his F1 return. FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. And a very warm welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Sam Sage and me, Ben Hocking. We're firmly in the off season now, folks. Harry's off for three months. Normality's restored. Oh, we go through the grind already, aren't we?

It's already, you know, the scenes in films where they're exploring and, you know, they go through the seasons. We're deeply into the winter part of the exploring with the big coats over your hags, dragging yourself through the snow blizzards as you desperately cling on to hope of a lovely shelter appearing on the horizon. That's where we're at at the moment. But we're not quitting. We're persevering. We'll still be here. Don't you worry, folks, because there's still plenty going on, including coming up today. Daniel Ricardo saying that he is reborn and re-energized. He gets points just for using those two words, but we'll be discussing that a little bit later on. Teo Porchere winning the Formula 2 title

and whether one of the F1 team should have picked him up for the 2024 season. But let's kick off with old Logan Sargent because there was just one remaining question mark on the 2024 grid, and that was who was going to partner Alex Albin at Williams. Now, there was a fair bit of speculation that Logan Sargent would hold on to his seat,

and indeed he has just days after the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, the team confirming that he will still be there in 2024, which means the grid, at least compared to the end of the 23 season, is completely unchanged as we head into next year. So, Sam, firstly, your reaction to the news. Yeah, I mean, bizarre that we've had a whole season of no driver changes. I can't remember the last time that that happened,

where every single seat has been kept by the driver that was previously in the seat before. Never happened. Wow. There you go, folks. Never. You're witnessing history for the first time. This has never ever happened that all 20 drivers remain.

Just copy and paste it. Drama is crazy in the transfer window these days. Talk about silly season. Go off the rails. Yeah, so, Sergeant, re-signed for... Sensible season. That's what we're going for now. We're boring.

We're cold. We're sensible. In winter, now where we look for topics to talk about, Williams have blessed us with the resigning of their driver. And it's an interesting one because I think it's fair to say that across all of the season, as a podcast, we've had very differing up and down opinions of Logan Sargent, what he's achieving, and whether he should be worthy of a second season in Formula One. So I was not surprised by the news.

And I also surprised by the news for the one reason that I just think there's a lack of options that Williams don't want to put their neck on the line for. I think there's a lot of stories that could have unfolded differently within the 2023 season that would have potentially have created rivals for sergeant to put in that William's seat. An example of one of those being, what if you Kisano did get re-signed by Alpha Tauri and it was Daniel Ricardo and, you know, the youngster that comes from down under. who picked up the secondary seat, of course, Lawson that is, if you're unaware, folks.

And they went with that line up. Does that mean that Yuki Snow is available? And he sat there, and for me, that would have been an obvious pick for Williams to maybe go for someone a bit more experience. And they have completed the ex-Alpha Tauri partnership, of course, alongside Alex Albon. And then you look at other options that could have been available,

such as their junior platform, their young drivers. I don't think anyone is there yet. No one was really competing in F2. They promoted a couple of drivers from the younger divisions further up. They've given some tests to those younger drivers. And we know that there's no one ready and rearing. It's not like Teo Porchere is a Williams Academy driver and they've just gone on one F2 season, for example. Speaking of Teo Porchere, who are they going to get onto later, someone like him would also be a skip your neck on the line kind of job. And would he be any better

than Logan Sargent? We don't know. We don't know really if he's one of those drivers that gets into an F1 car and suddenly succeeds or maybe he flounders like what Sergeant did at the start of the season. So in terms of the initial news, not shocked, but also it's not exactly, you know, edgy your seat, you know, seat in your pants kind of news that blows you away. It's not thrilling me. I'm not filled with excitement. It does feel like the safe option. Ben, what was your immediate reaction when you saw the signing? Yeah, lack of surprise, first and foremost, because whilst there were contenders earlier on in the year, I think they kind of fell by the wayside one by one, which left Logan Sargent as the only obvious contender.

Obviously, Drogovic was kind of mentioned, and then he signed on as a reserve driver again for Aston Martin next year. Who else was mentioned? Liam Lawson, obviously he put himself out of contention by directly saying that he would be back in F1 with Alphatari and Alfatari only, or Red Bull, obviously. And Mick Schumack, or another name that was. mentioned that Toto Wolf might want to shoehorn into that place. He has recently been confirmed in the World Endurance Championship.

So you could see that all of the options one by one were making themselves not options throughout the year to the point where Logan Sargent made the most sense. Now, I still don't personally agree with the call and we'll get onto that in a moment. However, I do think it was a good job by Williams in their decision-making process. I think they deserve compliments for how they did this. So first and foremost, they've announced this decision directly after the season, which I think was the right call for building Logan Sargent's confidence. There wasn't this drawn out process of three months.

And Logan Sargent, not knowing at the end of January, whether he was still racing this season, they've got to it early. They've made the call. And I think that will fill him with confidence. and it proves that the emphasis was on Sargent, as William said all along. It was always the case of James Vowes and other senior members at Williams saying, look, this is on Logan Sargent. If he hits the targets, he will be in the car next season.

And I think then making the decision straight after the season proves that that was actually the case rather than just the holding line of, we'll keep him happy by saying that, but actually in the background, we're looking at other options. it does seem as if it was very much the case that he had the targets, he hit them, and therefore he's in the car for next year. I think they were open and they were honest all stages throughout this. They never promised him that seat and then went back on it. I don't think they ever lied about how they were going to decide it. So I think Williams deserved credit for that, even if the fundamental decision isn't one I necessarily agree with. Do you agree with the decision, Sam?

I think I'm forced to agree with the decision and this is again due to the lack of options James Vousers held a weapon to my head behind camera and said you will agree with the decision but it's through lack of alternatives for them and you know this lack of alternatives has opened up a domino effect for Logan Sargent to become somewhat now obviously a two-year driver in Formula One

potentially longer through no doing of his own really And I think you have to go back to the start of last year when Sergeant first got the seat. You go remember that when Piastri was potentially going to become an Alpine driver, there was talks of him going on loan to Williams for a couple of years to develop. And then that obviously never materialised because Alpine lost Piastri. He went to McLaren. And the same was going to happen with Nick DeFries, of course, who was the standing driver in the Monsor Grand Prix for Williams.

And he then went to the Alpha Tower program and got separated again. and then in the junior program, no one was available, as I've already mentioned. So I feel like the decision process is right by, you know, it's defunct right. It's just default right. Because unless you're wanting to take absolute risk, I can't see there being a more sensible, fair option without either spending big bucks to try and pull a driver out of his contract within Formula One already. And I think the options for that option are limited, are very small.

or you do what I really suggested, which you go to the F2 route or a reserve driver route. And again, there's as much risk there. And I think James Vowles has taken the sensible option of going, Logan, your cost is a bit among with your crashing and your performances weren't great, but they were steadily starting to improve throughout the season. Now we're going to give you the year to capitalize on that. I guess when you're pairing them with someone like Alex Albon who brought in a lot of money through the points that he's scored, he's a safe pair of hands, he regularly delivers,

it's okay to have one side of the garage be a little bit temperamental and needing to develop them, because this could be an investment that pays off for them for five, six years to come. If Logan Sargent is forever one-tenth off Alex Alboning, absolutely everything he ever does, to me, that's a great driver pairing. I'm sure every team would love one driver that leads and one driver that's the 10th off and they know their place and they're happy with that position and it gets the job done for them. And if the car keeps improving, and let's say, I don't know, in two years time, the William, is now finishing fifth and sixth, fifth and seventh, every race, that's great.

They can't complain at that. So whilst I don't think in a dream world, this would have been what I would have gone for. We don't live in a dream world as much as I like to think so. This is a very sensible world. And it does make sense as much as it kind of pains me to do so because he has been on the cusp of not really deserving a second year. I can't see any real and obvious alternatives. Ben, I know that you're all very much on the side of don't think he deserves to have a

seat, what do you think should have happened? Yeah, I do agree with the point that he made progress in the last few races. He definitely did. I just don't think it was enough. And I'm happy to be corrected on this, but how many times

has a great F1 career started with being whitewashed in qualifying by a teammate? How many times is a good career started with that? It's not to say it can't happen, but I think it would be unprecedented. if that was the case. And no disrespect to Alex Albin, who is a very good driver. He's not Michael Schumack. He's not Lewis Hamilton. If one of those drivers whitewashes you, okay, this is Alex

Albin we're talking about. So that is one of my largest reasons I have reservations on this. I'm not a fan of chopping and changing for the sake of it. I don't think there's a benefit to that. But having said that, I think Williams are in a really crucial stage of their overall journey to get back to the front to the point where I think now is the time where they need to get these decisions right. I think if you are, let's take the top five teams out of the equation. They're kind of in their own league right now. Of the other five teams at the back of F1, I don't think you'd be rather, I don't think you'd rather be anywhere else right now than what. Williams. You could make a case and say a couple of years time, Audi might be the venue, or you might think Alpine are going to get their stuff together. But I think of all those five

teams, if you would say, okay, you can pick any one of them, which team do you want to go to right now? I'd take Williams, because they're the team on the ascendancy and they look like they are going places. In which case, I know there aren't any obvious choices out there. But I think you could make it happen if you really wanted to for one of these drivers. If earlier in the season you wanted to prize Lika Holkenberg away from Hass, as an example, I think you could have done that. If earlier in the season you wanted to, I don't know, make a play for one of the Alfa Romeo drivers, I think it would have happened.

I'm not saying they're the right options, by the way, but I think you could have made a non-obvious choice worked if you'd got onto it early enough. And I think there were enough indications early on that Sergeant isn't good enough. I know some are saying it's been a season of highs and lows, but there are many, many more lows than highs. Yeah, the lows are deep, veined minds and the highs are miles hills in the grounds.

You know, it really wasn't peaks and troughs, as you're saying. He still has a very long way to come. And as you stated with the comparison against Alex Albon, Albon, I think, is turning into a very, very solid Formula One driver. You know, he's going to be here for a long time. I think, what, top, top eight or nine drivers come to be on the grid? He's inside the top 50%. I think it's totally fair to say.

Yeah. But as you've stated, he's not Max Verstappen. He's not Lewis Hamilton. You know, he's not Charles Leclair. He's going up against someone who's maybe eighth or ninth on this grid. And Logan Sargent is 19th or 20th, rather than being first or second against ninth or tenth. There's a longer development that needs to progress.

There's a lot of things that need to change. And maybe we'll see, you know, a caterpillar bloom into a beautiful butterfly into the second season of his Formula One career. And he might really show himself with some more confidence and belief behind him. But I am inclined to think otherwise and that we will see a mild improvement

with a repeat of not being good enough again for the whole season. But I would like to be proved wrong by him. Oh yeah, absolutely. I would be very, very happy to be completely and utterly wrong on this. I would be really happy if that was the case. But the margins are fine. Margins are really fine in the world of F1. And the reality is that if you had two Logan Sargent in that car this year, Williams would have lost out on $27 million. That's the difference between 7th and 10th, which is ultimately where they would have finished if they had scored a combined total of two points rather than. than the 27 or however many they ended up with. So, but you made that point, which I think is a fair point, Ben. I do think that's a very valid and fair point. But equally, if you had two Alex Albonns in the car, they don't gain anything. Well, very true.

So I think, I think James Vow's point, which, you know, we all worship the man. He's an incredible, genius, wonderful, gorgeous person. You know, all of the above. But I do think his point was, you know, of we have Alex Albon in the car as the steady pair of hands, we've got a moment to allow someone to develop. Again, I think the conversation we're having, Ben, which I think the point you've made is, is Logan Sargent the right person to allow to develop? Has he got in him to ever become Alex Albon when they need him to be?

You never quite know what the margins are going to be between the teams up and down the championship, because, let's take Alpine, for example, they could have been quite a bit worse than what they were this season and quite a bit better and nothing would have changed in terms their championship position. And then you've got the four teams at the back where marginal gains is the difference between seventh and tenth. Same between second and third.

If Ferrari marginally better at anything, whether it's driver-related, strategy-related, they're claiming second place in the championship. So it is difficult, but you never know season to season exactly what those margins are going to be. It might be the case that Williams make great strides

in the off-season, and suddenly they do have the capacity to compete with Aston Martin and Alpine, in which case, two albums might have been the difference, but they might be in the same spot as this year, and it won't matter. It's just really difficult to say, but I think you've at least got to prepare

for the fact that you're the top, I don't know, your two drivers performing at their peak is going to make a difference. I think you've got to account for that, even if it doesn't end up that way. Yeah, yeah, I think that's totally fair. I think you're right that next year, there is definitely a chance if Williams continue on the upwards progression,

they'll need two Alex Albums rather than a dab hand behind the wheel and a loose canon, who they don't know if they're going to perform or not. So we'll have to see. Maybe it comes and bites them. Maybe James Vows is rewarded for his loyalty and his trust. What do you think Williams should do in the meantime with sort of 2025 in the future? Do you think that, OK, Logan Sargent's going to do his thing and they're going to make a call one way or the other whether he's good enough to continue beyond next season? But what do you think they should do as their insurance sort of backup?

if he's not. Well, I guess they've also got, what, I think it's two drivers moving into Formula 2 for this coming season, which is good. It's nice to see, but they're both in their rookie Formula 2 year. So rarely do we see drivers perform brilliantly. I mean, it has happened, of course. You know, you only need to look at Russell, LeCler, Norris, Piastri, but these are the drivers that, again, are separated from being good midfield Formula One drivers to I'm

going to be a world champion at some point. And we don't know if those Williams drivers have that ability. We don't know if they have that capability to step up. So whilst they are possible options, and we saw them being given young driver tests across the season, it doesn't mean that they're sure things. But what worries me for Williams is they don't want to spend cash, right? Williams have come out many times and said,

money for us is tight. We don't actually hit the cost cap. We're already struggling with facilities that other teams don't have, or do have and we don't have rather. So to go out and buy someone out of a contract, we'd probably in a perfect world be the ideal solution. They buy talent that is known, talent that can deliver, and they know that they've got a working relationship

with a Formula One driver at that point who understands everything to do with the car. What is beneficial for them is that I think out of the 20 contracts that we've got on the grid, something like 17 or 16 are ending at the end of 2024, which means that Williams need to be savvy. They need to not be too loyal to Logan Sargent. And if a deal that's too good to be true comes available for them

to snap up a driver that's gone, I'm not really sure what I do with myself at the moment. And you go, we could promise you a project for three or four seasons. You jump in and you snap them up. I'm not sure who that driver might be right now. You know, maybe someone like Escoban Okon, who isn't having a good time at Alpine, depending on how the season goes.

I don't know. Something like that might turn around to become available. Maybe a Valtry Bottas for his last three or four years in Formula One. I doubt he wants to go with the Audi thing coming in, but you never know. But there are options available to them, but none of them are sure things. And I really do think that's where William's predicament lies. And I don't think they've got something where they can go, that will bring us results. And it doesn't cost us an absolute fortune throughout the whole season.

Ben, I don't know if you've got any further thoughts on what Williams should be doing with their driver market really over the next year or so, before we enter this new era of Formula One in 2026. Yeah, I think what they're doing in terms of the F2, F3 lineup, they just need to keep going with that. And I think that's all okay. And like you say, if one of the drivers ends up being the next Norris, Russell, Piastri, LeClair, fine, then you've got your option there. But in the instance, that doesn't work out, I just think they should pay extra attention to the Red Bull scenario. Because whilst that is okay for now and everyone is happy enough and content enough where they are, Sergio Perez has got another season to prove himself.

Daniel Ricardo now should get a full year in the Alpha Tauri program or whatever they're going to be called. Yuki Sonoda is still there. Liam Lawson is okay for now as a backup. But that's not going to be the case at the end of next year. Something's got to give with the program in either someone moves up to Red Bull to replace Perez or someone doesn't, in which case you've got three drivers into two at Alfa Tauri. someone is going to be left unhappy in that program at the end of 2024.

And I think it would be prudent of Williams to pick up the one that isn't happy because, or at least consider the option of picking up the one of the three that isn't happy. Because, you know, it could be Liam Lawson, in which case he's somewhat proven himself this year. It could be Daniel Ricardo. He's an established name and has proven himself across many years of F1. Yuki Sonoda is improving year on year, even if you don't think he's got. A grade potential at the end of the day. He's still a good driver. So, you know, keeping tabs on that whole discussion, I think would be wise of Williams. Who would you choose out of the lot?

If you could have the pick of the bunch, if you're Williams, who would you go for? I think of, if I could have a full choice of those four drivers, including Sergio Perez, it probably would be Sergio Perez. I think he is right now the best of the four. And I think he's had enough experience at the front that that would be really valuable for Williams. So I think he would be, he'd probably be the number one pick of those if he is left without a seat. And the good news for Williams, I guess, is that it's unlikely Perez is going to go back down to Alphatari in that it's either going to be Red Bull again or gone completely. Whereas I think with Lawson, they'll try and keep hold of him. And Daniel Ricardo as a, as a

marketing opportunity. They'll try and keep hold of him in every way they can. Whereas Perez, I'm less sure about. So I think that would be a great move for Williams. Yeah, I've, fun of half, I thought the complete opposite. I thought if Perez gets booted from Red Bull, I feel like the mindset of Perez will be so defeatist. I'm at the end of my career. I've been at the top at this point, you know, unless I just want to pick up a paycheck, what's really the need. Whereas someone like Lawson, I feel like he'd be angry if he wasn't putting any of those seats again. I mean, I think you're right. I don't, I think realistically, Lawson either gets into an alpha-towery seat or they weirdly promote him both up to Red Bull, which won't make any sense.

But Perez isn't going to come back down. So realistically, one of the two current Alpha Towery drivers in Senodo or Ricardo will go up, and then Lawson, in theory, will fill one of the spaces that gets made available, should Perez not go, should Perez go somewhere. But I would prefer Lawson personally, just because you've got the development time, he would have a point to prove, and he's got years to do so. You can mold him and nurture him. And I think for the next 10 years, Albon and Lawson in a car together, if you kept that pairing together, has great potential. You could easily have a race winning team there.

But the only thing that will change from me against Ricardo or Perez would just be the mindset. I think towards the end of their career, they might be a little bit defeated with being in a, what could be a mid-table side. Potentially, I mean, we've seen it with Rikin and we've seen it to an extent, I think with Bottas. So there is a risk with that.

I think the risk with Lawson is that they've kind of, already had Lawson and Sargent go up together throughout the junior ranks and there was nothing between them. So it doesn't always translate to F1 that way, but certainly based on those two being almost identical in junior formally, there is a concern that they would replace Sergeant and get someone who does exactly the same job. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. But it doesn't always work that way. We'll take our first break now. We're going to be discussing Teo Porcère on the other side. Okay, so not only was everything F1 decided at Abu Dhabi, it was also the F2 discussion that was decided at Abu Dhabi 2,

with Taya Porcère seeing off Frederick Vestey to win the Formula 2 title. So I guess the question as it pertains to F1, Sam, is, should a team have snapped them up? We're having this predicament at the moment where we saw it with Piastri, we're seeing it with Drogovic, and now we're seeing it with Porsche. These F2 title winners are, not being able to make a way into Formula One as simple as it would seem that they should be able to.

You've got this Figa program and, you know, it's called Formula 2 with the aim of stepping into Formula 1. And he's come along in his, this is his second or third season in Formula 2. A third full season. He did do a couple of races at the end of 2020, but it's his third full season. We'll call it second, we'll call it second full season, then, just for his second full season, third, third and third in total. Oh, sorry, I don't just read that wrong. Is it third full season with, it's third full season fourth in total? Oh my gosh, she's an old man.

In that case, yeah, no, it's not as impressive as I think what we thought we might see because a couple of years ago when we were doing this podcast and we had a little discussion about Formula 2 and upcoming drivers, Porsche, Ben, especially yourself, were incredibly, I'm trying to think of the right word. You had a lot of admiration for poor share. You had a lot of hope that he might become a bit of a potential world beater. And I don't think he's letting himself down, but, you know, it's taken him three in a bit of years and get to the point where he's finally coming won the title.

And it wasn't, sort of not convincing, but it wasn't the dominant fashion that we've seen other drivers come and do it in. And even on that final weekend, he didn't exactly dominate proceedings. I think Jack Dewam absolutely ruined everyone else on the main feature race, which shows that, you know, he wasn't doing it in style. Him and Vestey had quite a battle, I believe, on track as well. So Teopor Shear, F2 champion, not allowed to compete in the season again. now seemingly is going to be handed an out, what was an alpha-remaio t-shirt, it will be a whatever they want to call themselves

next season t-shirt and a headset. And he's going to be the face that we see sat next to the team boss for the next season in the garage, I imagine, for the next year, while he's reserved driver. It is ridiculously hard, I think, for young drivers could break into this sport. I'll tell you what,

what an extra team would do for Formula One if we could just have an extra couple of seats? Have you heard anything about that, then? More seats available? Yeah. Some more drivers could be an F1. That's it, yeah. What do you think of the idea?

No, I think you're talking rubbish. I think I think everyone else would agree with you as well. I just think it's a poor idea. What a silly suggestion. Anyway, it's very strange that the person who's won the Figa series isn't able to step up. But if you look at his performances, I do think he's slumping.

I do think he's being unable to carry through the momentum of his previous junior career up to this point. And maybe that is what has prevented a team from snapping him up. The only real option I think he had was that William's seat. And I think if Logan's sergeant had maybe metaphorically

crash and burned over the last few races, then he would have had a shot at maybe getting a loan deal into that option. But unfortunately, I think Logan Sarkin, as we've seen,

has just done enough. And there's nothing available to him. The team he's contracted to is becoming Audi and they're in a bit of a state of limbo. They want consistent hands and Joe and Bottas whilst not setting the world on fire

do enough to keep the car running, to keep it ticking. You don't want to go to Haas and they seem to be happy with their old man pairing and no development. And then you've got teams like Ashton Martin

where that's not going to shift Al-Ping aren't going anywhere. Al-Fatari, you're not involved in the program. It's incredibly hard to break into one of these teams now unless you're a part of a junior program and you're setting the world a light.

Ben, do you think that realistically he could have gone anywhere in this season? He could have done if a team had made a decision early enough. If I was Williams, would I have picked them up? Yes. If I was Hass, would I've picked him up?

Yes. If I was Alpha Romeo, would I have picked him up? Yes, three teams. I think all had the opportunity to take him. And I think in all three instances, they should have done. I think when it comes to Porsche and his ability, has he underwhelmed at all? A little. That is based on quite high expectations from my side,

based on his very early junior career, a little bit. But even so, I think he's done more than enough to warrant an F1C. I think all three of those teams should have picked him up. I think Hass tried it before with young junior drivers. It didn't work out. I think poor share is clear of both of them. I think Alfa Romeo obviously makes the most sense as he's been part of their junior program.

I think he would be an upgrade on Joe Guan Yu. And I think with Williams, I think he would have been worth a gamble, in all honesty, versus Logan Sargent. So I appreciate it's taking him longer to win Formula 2 than it has some other key drivers. But if you look at, I'll give you a list of five drivers,

Pierre Gassley, Nico Rosberg, Oscar Piastri, George Russell, and Charles LeClau. Those five drivers, there's something that connects all five of those,

and Teu Pochere, and no one else. And that is that they all won the F2 title at the age of 20, exactly the age of 20. And there's, I haven't just,

cherry pick those names either. There aren't others out there that have also won it at 20 years old. That's all of them since the start of F2 nearly 20 years ago. Now, I think if you were to look at any of those other five drivers, you wouldn't say in any instance, shouldn't have got to F1. In hindsight, not a good idea. Even the bottom end of that, which is Pierre, if Pierre Gazley is the floor, like that is the worst option of those five, Gassley's had a good F1 career. If he were to, if he weren't come back next year, he's had a good F1 career. Is it possible that Paul Cher is the only one of those six that, let's say, made it to F1 one day and it wasn't a good idea? I don't think so. I think he belongs as part of that group. Where in that list he would end up is another question. Do you think

he's got the ability of someone like Russell and LeClau? If you would say no to that, fine. But I can't see him being any worse than the bottom end of that list, which is Pierre Gassley. So, So I absolutely would have promoted him. Do you think, and we've discussed this before on the show, that there is a calling that there needs to be some kind of program to elevate the F2 champion into Formula One on the year that they win? I mean, it's harder to, it's easier theorising about it versus actually putting it into action, and completely respect that.

But yes, this needs to happen. in some form because this was an issue that F2 had about 10 years ago when there were a number of champions that could not make it to F1. So there was a couple of years like where Fabio Limer won and Davidae Valseki, he was an F2 champion. And none of them could really progress into F1. And we seem to have gone back to that after a good few years because, you know, Gassley made it to F1 and Russell and LeClaire did.

and that was all around the same time period. But if you look at the last five F2 champions, only one of them has actually gone into a seat the very next year. That was Mick Schumacher winning the championship in 2020. The other four, who are Nick DeVries and Oscar Piastrow, who of course made it to F1, but not the year after they won it. And then Drogovich and Porcère, the last two champions, they haven't been in a seat the year after they've won that title.

And I think particularly in the case of poor share, it's a real shame, but it very much Piahtri as well. I know Piazsche didn't have to wait too much longer, but he very much deserved to be an F1 the year after he won F2. So I think there is an issue. It's a really hard thing to put into words to create an actual program that is fair, it works, it's financially viable, how is it tied into a championship? There's so many questions all for elevating one young person into the sport. sport. And I guess a lot of people, maybe old school F1 fans will sit there and go, they've just got to earn it. If they're not in the sport, it means that they're not good enough for some perspective reason, which I disagree with. I don't think that's a fair analysis because you look at Piascri, right,

who is coming to that McLarency a year after he won the title. What more do you want from him? What more do you, it's more than good enough to be in this sport. So, you know, I think that immediately puts that point in the bin. But how do you do you do subsidise a team's, uh, a team's financial bill at the end of the season by going, right, you can get an extra $15 million on the cost cap and you can run a third car, but that third car won't aid your constructors championship. It only aids their drivers or something like that. You know, you get a chance to invest that money somewhere or something like that. It's so difficult to

work out. Again, more seats. I know it sounds like a ridiculous and stupid idea, but I'm just trying to see if it would work. It might be possible. We'll give it just a go, maybe. It's harsh. It's harsh when you are at these, and they are kids have worked for years and years and years and put so much effort. And they've lost so, I know that they, you know, a lot of them come from very wealthy backgrounds and they have got privileged lives. But at the same time, they are giving up a lot of their childhood and their upbringing to work and to work out physically, to be physically fit for this and mentally trained into the, they don't have normal childhood experiences because they've got to sit to these rules and these paddocks. And it's what it takes to be a professor. sports person. So when you're at the very, very top of the game in youth level, which is what F2 really is, it's the youth level, and you win it all, and there's nothing waiting for you on the other side of kind of the pearly gates of the F2 championship, it's a bit of a kick in the teeth, I've done absolutely everything in my own power to get over the line here. I've beaten everyone around me, and you're telling me there's nothing, I get a cup and I have to walk away and I can't

go and race again in this season. I just have to sit there on a side, line, it must be incredibly frustrating. So I don't even know if there is a solution, but it is unfair for these youngsters and not be able to take the next step. Yeah, I agree with that. And I think the good news, at least, to put something of a silver lining on this,

is that where there are drivers coming through from F2, it's not like the winners of the championship are being passed up for drivers who are awful. Like, drivers who have come up over the last five years or so that haven't been champions have still positioned pretty well in the championship. So if you're looking at least starting from 2019, Nicholas Latifi finished second, Yuki Sanoda finished third, Nikita Mazepin finished fifth, Shoguan Yu finished third and Logan Sargent finished fourth. So it's not like we're taking drivers who finished 15th in F2 over the champions, which is a good thing. And if, you know,

I know people often rightly want to slam on Nikita Mazapin. He finished fifth in F2. That's not, that is an achievement. It's not like he was awful in junior formula and didn't absolutely didn't deserve a seat in F1. But even so, it would be nice to see the champions of these series get promoted over drivers they've beaten. Yeah, I completely agree. I think, Ben, you've probably got more stats to hand than I have. but the list you reeled off there already was more drivers than have won the F2 title being elevated to F1,

even though it's second through to fifth. It shows you that team academies and Mungi still do play a large role in what gets you into Formula One. You'd argue that Zhugeang Yu maybe got picked up. He was a very good driver and had a good junior career, but you'd argue that the Chinese sponsorship element to it and the marketing opportunities that that supports, elevated him higher than maybe got an F2 champion could bring in raw talent. The same with Yuki Sonoda.

Part of the Red Bull Driver program, great. That helps him. But also, he's one of the few Japanese drivers that's really come through the ranks. The Japanese market in Formula One is massive. The Honda partnership, of course, is massively beneficial that he has there. Are there other factors that you still need to have

as a junior driver to mean that you get success? Raw talent is not the only currency that could buy you something in Formula One. I think that is a little bit of a shame. Yeah, I would agree with that. And lastly, just a final point actually on Porsche that I wanted to say, he only won one race all season, which is bizarre, because Frederick Vestey finished second, one, five,

which I guess it depends on which way you want to look at that, because you could look at it from the perspective that this guy hasn't won enough races to justify his place in F1. and the other side, you could say he still won the championship despite only winning one race. That's pretty consistent across a full season. That would definitely help him in F1. It very much reminded me of Esteban Ocon.

There was a season he did before he made it to F1. It might have been F3, where he won the title, but he just did it by finishing second nearly every race. And actually, the more I think about it, Porsche and Esteban Ocon might not be a bad comparison. I think they, you know, if Porsche got the chance, I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up having very similar careers. Like him or loathe him. Ocon's done a great job in F1, right? He's a consistent midfield driver. Yeah, exactly. Right. We'll take our next break. On the other side, we're going to be discussing Lewis Hamilton.

Okay, so Lewis Hamilton has recently come out with some comments. He's said quite a bit, actually, but he said the following. there was so much going through my mind during that period referring to after Abbey 2021. But I think one of the worst things you can do is make decisions based on emotions because when you're emotional and in the heat of that moment, more often than not, you're not going to make the best decisions. Emotions were high. It was a really, really difficult period of time. So I had to just wait until things calmed down and that I was clear in my thought and I was then able to make the right decisions. So it's always been speculated, I guess, that Lewis Hamilton considered retirement after Abidabie 21.

But I think here with some select media members, he's essentially confirming that was the case. He also had some comments about his last two seasons and how he's obviously gone winless, far cry from where he was in terms of winning championships a few years ago. Did you have any thoughts on his comments? I think this is very different from Lewis Hamilton.

I think Lewis Hamilton has always been one of those drivers. It is more than happy to speak about problems, speak about difficulties, speak about issues he's having on the track with an open heart, an open mind. And he's, we heard the comments from Toto in the season that he's one of the first drivers

to always put his hands up and take responsibility when he is often sometimes the cause of a failure or a difficulty. But this is a little bit different to me because this is the first time that Lewis Hamilton has ever publicly come out and disclosed that he was having doubts

about his own ability, about his own career, which is very difficult, very different to a, I cause a crash or the strategy failed because of me or something like that, which has happened throughout his career that happens to most drivers. But this is something very, very different. And it's a little bit sad, but I guess it happens to most drivers where they come out and say, do I still have this relentless ability that Formula One drivers have that no one else has,

this ability to maintain this ruthless cutthroat level of ability at 200 miles an hour, only 20 drivers have the ability to have. And I think you have to be a bit insane. So not question possibly retirement after the close of what has been one of the most dominant eras in Formula One of all time. And after achieving that much continuously to have that all crumble around you in such dramatic fashion, I think for any person, whether you're a Hamilton fan, you don't like him, whether you love the Stappen, you've got to sympathize with the guy to have that

snatched away from you on the last lap, under the last lap. are such controversial circumstances or whether you agree that it was right or wrong and the Stewart's decision was fine or not, whatever, we're not discussing that. I'm sure if you were in that position, you would surely feel a bit heartbroken, a bit, you know, gutted inside of you. So I think he'd be mad to have not sat there and seriously gone. Am I happy to bow out now? Have I achieved everything I want to achieve? Or do I have to have some kind of vendetta, some kind of anger to get back to the very top? And I think, I think Lewis Hamilton is the kind of kind of guy that chooses to use anger and harness emotion in his driving.

I think very differently to someone like Max Verstappen actually and, you know, those kind of drivers, someone like Prost as well, who were very much more calculated and more happy to just put all emotion to one side and go, I'm relying on my talent and relying on my team, I'm getting the job done. Because an angry Lewis Hamilton, I think is by far the most potent and scary Lewis Hamilton on a racetrack. We've seen times where he's come back from a. bad race or the car hasn't been very good and he has delivered some exceptional performances when

something has got gone his way in the weekend or previously. So I was a little shock to him so publicly admit that his talent was possibly the thing that was in question. Later on in the comments that, you know, Ben Fairly didn't get to, he was speaking about how the car worked. I mean, shed a little bit of light actually because he matched George Russell or rather George Russell matched Lewis Hamilton in qualifying, which he said is the area he needs to improve on, which is baffling when Lewis Hamilton, the man with the most pole positions in Formula One by a long shot, is saying, my qualifying isn't good enough, I need to improve. And he discussed that the reason why the qualifying was so difficult is because one day you'll see George Russell in third and Lewis

Hamilton in 11th. And the next week, you'll see George Russell qualify eighth or ninth, and Lewis Hamilton might be close to picking up pole position. And that's because the car with the tyres is so tricky to harness in the right window that neither of them really know if they're about to hit the sweet spot, which you know what actually made me come to a lot of realization that, you know, those guys are both absolutely fantastic. And if the car is that difficult to put in the right window and only one, it's no surprise that only one of them gets it right on a weekend sometimes. And we saw it with, with Vegas, right, where Hamilton was out and Russell was nearly

on the front row. It shows that that Mercedes is probably about two degrees away from being an absolute well-beater of a car. But it's such like a mistress, such a little minks, and you've got to get it right. and if you can't get it right, it's an absolute devil to deal with. And it shows you that these two drivers were world-class, just can't get that between them. So I'm not surprised that Hamilton has come out and said the last two

couple of seasons have been difficult. And it was very interesting to hear those insights. But I was really surprised to hear him doubting himself after what he's achieved. Because I think the difference between himself and Alonso, I don't think Alonso has ever publicly said that he himself is not good enough. I think Alonso has always got the bit between. I think Alonso will go to 80 years old believing that he's, got what it takes. It was interesting to hear Lewis Hamilton not say that.

Yeah, there was a lot to unpack with this because he didn't necessarily stay on one topic specifically. And I, I enjoy it actually because Lewis Hamilton doesn't, he doesn't do it completely regularly, but he does do it once or twice a season. He will really open up. And it's always worth paying attention for when he does. I think a lot of the time, and he's not the only one, you know, he can. can answer in a PR fashion and not give too much away. And that is probably something all 20 drivers are guilty of at times and intentionally so. But there are a couple of occasions where Lewis Hamilton really opens up and you start to understand the man behind the driver.

I think I'll tackle the retirement question first of all. I think when it comes to retirement and us being able to give a judgment on a driver and when it's right for them to retire, it's always worth bearing in mind that we've only got a percentage of what is important to that person. So we can very much answer from a sporting perspective whether we think a driver should pack it in. So we can very easily say that when Nico Rosberg retired as an example, from a pure sporting perspective, you can turn around and say that was a mistake because he still had a lot more to give at that point. He could have won plenty more races, could have won more championships. In the same way that we can turn around and say Kimmy Reichen and should have

retired earlier than what he did because it was, you know, he was a long way past his best and there was no value in him staying at Alfa Romeo. We can say that from a pure sporting perspective, but we don't know how much of the overall percentage that makes up for a driver when making that decision. So Nico Rosberg decided he wants to spend more time with his family. That's something he can make a judgment on that we can't. Similar with Kimmy Reichen and we can say, well, Kimi Reichen and shouldn't have stuck around for so long, but Kimmy Reichen can turn around and say, well, actually, I was able to secure X amount of millions of pounds over those couple of years, and now my family are secure for life. Again, that's the sort of stuff that we can't necessarily

completely factor in. So when Lewis Hamilton turns around and says he considered retirement at the end of 2021, we can say from a sporting perspective, you know, You could go for another five years and still win plenty more championships. But he could turn around and say, well, actually, these are all the other things that I'd like to do in my career. And I'm not emotionally set on F1 and all the rest of it. He can more accurately say those sorts of things. I think the stuff about the car was interesting as well about how it was a bit of a mix, as you put it. because George Russell essentially said exactly the same thing as well in another interview

where for whatever reason they might be 11 all in qualifying but they're very rarely next to each other on the grid and it does seem as if where one driver can figure it out on one weekend the other driver can't so if they can put together something that is more predictable in 2024 you would imagine they will be they will start to qualify next to each other yet again. I know Mercedes are basically ripping that car to shreds and starting from scratch. So I'm sure that's something that both drivers would have had input on to try and get from this 24 challenger. I found it interesting as well. One of the other things I just wanted to pick up on his comments was how the last two seasons, a lot of the narrative has been, he has been

winless the last two seasons, which is factually correct. He has not won a race in the last two years. but he made a good point actually where he compared it to the time around 2009, 2010-2011, where he won a race in all three of those years, but actually it wasn't that dissimilar to what he's going through now. 09 he won a race, the Hungarian Grand Prix. The rest of the year was shambolic. It was an awful car. In 2011, you might say, well, 2011, he won three races that year.

But actually, he was only on the podium six times. He was on the podium three times where he didn't win that year. So six times to the podium, that's exactly the same number as he had this season, and three fewer than he had last season. So I don't think, even though a lot of the narrative is, this is the most difficult time of his career, he's gone two seasons winless after however many years in a row he'd won before that. But I don't think it's that much different from what he had in those few difficult years either.

I think that's a great comparison point. I also think it's absolutely hilarious that with no other. driver, you sit there and go, oh, he's gone two seasons without winging, without winging a race in Formula One. Do you know how many drivers have competing in Formula One and never even touched the top spot? And people are using this as a criticism against Lewis Hamilton that he hasn't won something for two seasons. It's an inadvertent compliment, right?

Yeah, right? Oh, my gosh, he's not added to his plus 100 tally of race wings in the last two seasons. Oh, that's the end of Lewis Hamilton. The guy's still operating in the top. two or three percent of an F1 grid. And this is, I would argue now Lewis Hamilton well off of his absolute peak. And still, much as we've complimenting Fernando Alonso in the same way. And I think it would be rude to Lewis Hamilton not to give him the same benefit that a very good,

not a great Lewis Hamilton, just a very good Lewis Hamilton would still demolish 17, 16 of the drivers, if you put him next to him across a whole season. And that's still a massive asset for someone like Mercedes to have in their car. and it's going to be very hard for any young driver to come along and say, now's the time that you should get rid of seven-time champion 100 and what a three race wings, you know, that guy, Lewis Hamilton and put me in the car instead. The guy is allowed to have a couple of years where he's not the absolute domination that he has been previously. So I imagine to his, he's incredibly high standards that are arguably higher than Engelang has ever had in Formula One realistically.

He's probably sit there thinking, this is frustrating. this is not going the way I wanted to go. But he's also picked up more podiums this year than most people will also ever have in Formula One. And this has been a bad year for Lewis Hamilton, who finished third in the driver's championship and was at one point very close to being second. So tough one for Lewis, yes.

But for anyone else, this would have been a fan. If Landon Norris had this season, everyone would be absolutely showering him in praise. But because it's Lewis Hamilton, you go, he's washed, mate. Not good enough. The guy, if the guy gets given the car, I have no doubt that we see him immediately bounce back and pick up regular race wins.

It's just whether the Masegis can do it for him. I also feel a little bit sorry for George Russell, who is having to take this all along when he watched that team go through domination after domination after domination. And then he gets moved up from a Williams car that was by far the worst Williams car that we've seen for a long time into a Mercedes car that's an absolute diva, can't be driven properly. It's a nightmare to get the tire done correctly. He's had one race win after watching Lewis Hamilton and Baltry Bot,

and Nico Rosberg do so well, it must be so frustrated for him because he's such a talent. And while Lecler gets all the applaudits, Norris gets all the plaudits, Verstappen obviously running away with titles, he's in that school. He's in that group. That's his era. And he's having to struggle around in this car next to a seven-time world champion who's also struggling. So I think there's a lot more to the story than just Lewis Hamilton had a bad time at the end of 21 should he retire.

Yeah, definitely. And we'll get to top 10 driver ratings in a future episode before the end of the year. But certainly Lewis Hamilton, at least from my perspective, the only driver you can say definitively outclass Lewis Hamilton this year was Max Verstappen. Even if you think, let's say you think he was fourth and Lando Norris was better and Fernando Alonzo was better, fine. But the only one I think you can definitively say, yes, he was 100% better than Lewis Hamilton. this year was Max for Statenham. I would struggle to make the case for anyone else. Yeah, fair.

Okay, let's take our final break today. And then on the other side, we're going to be chatting Daniel Ricardo. Okay, Daniel Ricardo, asked in Abu Dhabi if the injury he had sustained earlier in the year spoiled an otherwise ideal scenario around his return. He said, obviously, I wish this never happened just because it was uncomfortable and painful. But now that is obviously done. I still look back on this year as a positive because sitting here a year ago, I was like,

could this be my last race? I don't exaggerate when I say that. I really didn't know. I honestly thought it was 50-50. So to have the year I've had and forget the hand, I just kind of feel a little bit more reborn again, is the right word. I feel re-energized. What do you make of those comments?

That's very upbeat from a generally upbeat person, but what do you make of them? Yeah, he says he's a very upbeat person, but he did also open up when he was, when he left McLaren about his time at McLaren and obviously during the COVID time where he was unable to go home to see his family in Australia for I think three or four years, which is really difficult. And he did say he felt incredibly low and he was struggling with his mental health. So on a mental health point of view, it's absolutely wonderful to hear that Daniel Ricardo is feeling upbeat and happy and positive because he is a real light of Formula One, whether it comes to just being on the grid, the marketing perspective,

the amount that he does out, same as the likes of Lewis Hamilton, the amount of attention that he brings to Formula One in a positive manner outside of racing is really important. That is a very important aspect. So for himself and for the sport, it's fantastic. I also found it very funny that when someone said,

what you're taking away from this season, he just went a bit of metal in my hand. I thought that was a very Daniel Ricardo response. It did give me a little chuckle. I can understand why he's feeling reborn, a bit re-energized. He's had a bit of a tumultuous time over the last three or four years within Formula One. Of course, leaving Red Bull right before they took the step to becoming essentially a world-beating team once again.

Must have been, in hindsight, a bit of a kick because I'm sure Daniel Ricardo went asked, if you were to say to him, if you were in that car alongside Max Verstappen in 21, in 22, this season, did you think you've got it takes to fight with him all the way to the end to win the title? and I'm sure Daniel Ricardo would be first to go, I've won those titles, they'd be my titles. So I'm sure to any sportsperson, that must be really difficult. He then goes to Reno, who are now Alpine.

And whilst I think he was very good in his second season at Renault, it wasn't a fantastic period for both car and more team drivers. And then McLaren, of course, he was outclassed by Norris. The car didn't suit him properly. He never got on with the culture there. And it was definitely a low point in his Formula One career. So to hear him come back from the year out, the broken hand,

with Sonoda and Lawson and all the doubt around that, to hear him feel positive and Boyd and the fact that he's going to be in Formula One again, is fantastic. I also think it shows a bit of a lowering of Daniel Ricardo's expectations, because I think Daniel Ricardo, a few years ago, would have been disappointed with anything that wasn't pogiums or race wins. You got to remember he's an eight-time race winner, sat on the podium plenty of times.

He's regularly fighting at the front of the grid, and he was being accrediting at one point with being one of the best overtakers we've ever seen in Formula One. And now he's overjoyed. he feels reborn and re-energized with a team that it might be his last season in Formula One this season. He might not get that Red Bull drive again, and he might spend it in an Alphotauri or whatever it's going to be called, that might be running around in seventh in the championship for a whole year.

But to him, that's positive. You know what? Fine. It's not my career. It's not my life. But it does show a big shift in who Daniel Ricardo is becoming, I think, if that is something that he feels completely happy with. But I am glad he's happy.

Yeah, for sure. And I think the Daniel Ricardo we saw at McLaren, you know, it never fully made sense that Daniel Ricardo would fall completely off a cliff. And I think it was fairly obvious that it was very much a team and driver not meshing. There was the issue rather than Daniel Ricardo himself. I know people seem to think that he himself completely fell off a cliff, which I never bought into because. well, first of all, you see Fernando Alonto doing what he's doing, and he's 10 years older than Daniel Ricardo, or something close to that.

I just think Daniel Ricardo and McLaren never fully got on together. And, look, I mean, the final year he had at Renault, I thought he did incredibly well. Now, the car wasn't as good as I'm sure he would have liked it to be, but equally, outside of Vastappen and Hamilton that season, he might well have been the third best driver. It was certainly a competition between himself, and Perez and Gasly was probably in the mix that year as well.

But Ricardo was right up there. I think he finished maybe fifth in the championship and obviously picked up a podium or two, I can't remember. But yeah, he had a great season. So to go from what he did at Red Bull to what he did at Renaud and then McLaren is this outlier, I think it was always worth Red Bull then taking a gamble on him or I don't even think it was that much of a gamble.

that he could go back and do a job. Now, it's still very much in progress. I'm not sitting here saying that he's back to what he once was and that's the end of the story. He's still got a lot of work to do. But there has been potential there in the second half of this season. And it's now down to him to carry that forward into 24 and make his case for 2025. And maybe it will be enough. Maybe it won't. but at least he will know that a full season under his belt, he will give it everything he can. If it's enough, it's enough. If it's not, it's not.

I think it's quite a risky game for Daniel Ricardo. And we said this when he was, you know, one of the drivers being kind of bounding around fulfilling that Alfa Towery seat. In that Yuki Sunoda, whilst we, I think we've all come to agree that he's a great character, he's a real treasure to the Formula One community. He's not going to be a multiple-time world champion. He's just a good driver. And then you've got the outline that was Liam Lawson,

that, of course, came in only through Daniel Ricardo injuring himself and hurting his hand, of course, dig a lot better than a lot of people expected him to do. Daniel Ricardo is inadvertently having to pitch himself against three separate drivers across the end of the season we've just had, and now for 2024, because Liam Lawson's performances will be in the back of the Red Bull family's minds, and I believe they promised him a drive somewhere for the season after the one we're about to go into. Sergei Perez will, of course, if he wants to stay in Formula One, will know that he's got to do better than the likes of Daniel Ricardo. Daniel Ricardo will have to do better than Sergio Perez. And equally, he'll have to be a very comfortable Yuki Sanoda. So this is a big test for Ricardo. It's not going

to be a breeze of him just having to drive that car well. He's going to still have to prove himself against drivers who have got a lot more time in the locker to prove themselves and have time and create a career for themselves with the Formula One against Daniel Ricardo's not ending career, but it's it's Twilight Zone, I would argue. So this is a big of a risk for Ricardo. He He can't rest on his laurels and his reputation. He's still going to have to come out in 2024, put his foot down and prove that he's got what it takes to beat others around him, I think.

Yeah. And I guess I wouldn't necessarily call it a risk because I don't think there's an obvious place he could be elsewhere. I think if he'd perform better at McLaren and he had other options heading into this season, then going back to Al-Fatari would have absolutely been a risk rather than a more, I don't know, standalone team that might have a chance of winning races and the like. But I think this is where

his experience might come in. You mentioned his change in attitude, and I agree with that fundamentally. And I think that will benefit him next season because you're right, he is going to be compared against all of those drivers. But I think he's experienced enough to this point to know that he can only control what he can do. Like he can only control his performances in the car. If Yuki Sunoda comes along and does an incredible job. Fair enough, but that's, that's Yuki Sonoda's doing. If Sergio Perez does a better job this year, and so next year, backing up Vastappen versus this year, that's on Perez. And there's nothing Ricardo can do to control that. So I think if Ricardo, and I think he will, just focus on himself, focus on what he's doing,

his job, and the decision will make itself at that point. But Ricardo will be able to sit back and know that he's done everything he can. Yeah, I think it's fair. It would be very interesting to see what he's capable of doing in that car. And whether, obviously, they're making a lot of changes fundamentally to the makeup of that Alpha Tauri car. It's going to be a lot closer to Red Bull. You never know. It could be a very good car come the 2024 season.

It might be a top point scorer. Who knows? I mean, we've already referenced 2020 in what Gazzley did that season. Every chance that it's a very similar year next year for Alpha Tauri, because that 2020 car was very closely linked to the Red Bull. and there were parts early in that season, there was not a lot to choose between those two teams. So if they can produce a car that is even like 90% of the Red Bull,

that would be interesting. Yeah, it would be what you've been expecting fifth, fourth places on the regular, like Pierre Gasny did in 2020. And Daniel Ricardo, in that mix, every single race, rejuvenated. I wouldn't want to go up against him, to be fair. I wouldn't want to battle him. Absolutely. Right, should we call that episode here then, Sam, if you wouldn't mind getting us out of here.

Folks, well done for trudging through the blizzard with us. You're making it there slowly. We'll be out of the cold soon. The days will become lighter and that, you know, that sound that they always put in the films, that noise of all the snow blowing across the screen. Headphone listeners loving you. A bit of ASMR for you there, folks. In the horrible, most horrible version possible. Anyway, folks, you know what we're going through.

Thank you for skicking with us. We are going to be here two episodes a week all the way through the winter break. We've got some fun stuff coming up. We've got the LB Awards. We've got our reviews. We've got teammate wars. And then as we get past Christmas, we'll, of course,

start to look at things such as the liveries that we start to be announced in Pimp My F1. The new predictions begin. There's lots to talk about skills. So whilst there's no racing, we hope that you stay with us for the rest of the winter break into the new year. Thank you again.

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And in the meantime, I've been Samuel Sage. And I've been Ben Hocking. And remember, keep breaking late. Keep trudging through the storm. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.