The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Is the Stroll to Alonso gap BAD LUCK or PERFORMANCE?

Episode Date: September 10, 2023

Ben & Sam review Mike Krack's confirmation of Stroll at Aston Martin for 2024 and his assertion that it is not a performance gap between the team's two drivers but mechanical and strategical bad luck. They also discuss the 10 teams reportedly being within the cost cap for 2022, Toto Wolff's branding of Verstappen's 10 consecutive race wins as 'irrelevant', and what Ricciardo being out until Qatar at the earliest could mean for his future. They finish off with a game of Pump the Brakes.. 🌎Get Exclusive NordVPN deal here ↣ https://nordvpn.com/lbf1 It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money back guarantee! 👍 FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. And a very warm welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Sam Sage and me, Ben Hocking. Harry's not here. Cue the shock of the people. He's done well recently. He clearly just needs to have a little break from it all, have a rest, recuperation.

and he'll be back bigger and stronger, like the sequel to a Godzilla film, I imagine. Honestly, this week might be the worst week in the, at the beginning of every month, to give you a bit of behind the scenes on this, we all submit what dates we can't record on. As you know, Harry was with us for the Wednesday episode that we recorded on Tuesday.

The reason we recorded on Tuesday is that is literally the only day this week he could record. Six of the seven couldn't do. I don't understand how, his life is so... I asked him about it. I quizzed him about it privately. And he went, honestly, mate, this month is an absolute nightmare. Well, even he wants to be that busy. But yeah, there you go. He's not going to be here today. But he will be back. Don't worry. He will be back. It doesn't take a genius to work out out of the three of us. Who has friends outside of the three of us?

Yeah. I actually think he's celebrating with his family. They're down. I think he's going to see Google Revival. he's having a nice time with his family doing that. Wow, we didn't even make up an excuse. That's actually what he's doing. That's incredible. Deserves it. And before we move,

have you lost your cold, Sam? No, I haven't. My throat isn't as bad, which is great, because I can probably do this whole segment without constantly muting to try and cough. But you might be going to notice, folks, I'm quite blocked up. If you hear the og sniff,

I'm so sorry. I know that's not a fun thing to hear it in your eardrums. I'll try and keep it to a minimum one. Good stuff. Well, coming up on today's episode, Daniel Ricardo expected to be out until at least Qatar, giving Liam Lawson

a couple more races in the car. What might that mean for Alfa Tari's decision for 2024? Toto Wolf has described Max Verstappen's record of 10 straight wins as irrelevant. We'll be delving into that quote and indeed a little bit more about what he said a little bit later on.

All 10 teams were within the cost cap for 2022. I'll take on that revelation. But we're going to start with Lance Stroll and we'll start with Aston Martin because I'm not sure if it was a question at all, but he has been confirmed for 2024. He is going to be racing at the team again next year. Stroll has a bit of a unique situation

in that he's about the only driver on the grid where his contracts never really actually known is just always presumed. But we have had the confirmation that he will be there. Mike Crack, though, had some interesting comments about his performance relative to Fernando Alonzo. He said, there is not a marked gap in performance. There is a marked gap in points,

and it's important to separate between the two. We as a team are analysing the season from both perspectives, from both drivers, and I think we as a team need to do a much, much better job on that side of the garage, come race strategy. But also, we've had reliability issues, and it was always hitting that car.

Sam, what do you think about this? Do you think he's right in saying the performance gap isn't as significant as it may seem. Look, Mike Crack, I'm going to get some of your crack because whatever you're smoking, I need to be on. Because, mate, what kind of a statement is this? When you publicly announced that Lance Stroll and Fernando Alonso, the two-time champ, everyone do the dance,

who is surely one of the greatest Formula One drivers of all time, most people will probably have him within their top 10, top 12, you know, arguably across all of history, Lantstrol probably wouldn't feature in your top 75 to 80, and that's if you're being generous. So if you're going to realistically come out and say, with all credibility and seriousness behind you, that the performance gap is not big,

and actually it's only reliability that is hitting Lankstrol's car, and that's the difference between the two of them. It's just pure padding. It's really desperately trying to cling on to the fact that this driver's father employs you, it employs everyone, and he's the person that owns the team and therefore owns the narrative. And we've heard it not just from Mike Crack either. You've heard it earlier in the season from Fangando Alonso himself who believes that apparently one day, Larkstrol could be world champion material. He could go on to achieve the greatest things

that the sport has ever seen. It really does feel like we've all decided to kiss up to Papa stroll to Father Christmas stroll and make sure that we all get our Christmas bonuses come the end of the year. So, you know, Lance stroll is not the worst driver on the grid, but neither is he even close to being in the top 50%. And I think most people would put Fernando alongside in their top six, you know, depending on what order you're stacking things, I think it's a close call.

So I really do think that statements like this purely are to make sure that internal politics, internal reasoning that you're standing, so to speak, with the team owner goes down positively. They can only say positive things. There's no point berating him and being horribly negative because we all know that until Lankstrol optionally chooses to walk away from the sport, whether that be tennis or anything else, they ain't going anywhere. So there's no point causing a rift politically to sacrifice essentially what's only going

to be your own job, your only way forward, because you're going to come out negatively. he will always choose his own child over some other person he employs. And we've seen that time after time again with drivers being possibly brought into the team or not being brought into the team. So, yeah, I think it's a low of old rubbish. Whatever you are smoking, Mr. Mike Crack, handing over, because life clearly seems to be much more positive and rosy with whatever it is that you're taking on. In my view, this is actually a perfect example of two things being true. And I know in today's society, only one thing.

can be true and everything else that disagrees with that point of view is therefore wrong. But two things can be true. And in this instance, I think it's fair to say that Landstrol has had some bad luck and it is also fair to say the Landstrol is nowhere near Fernando Alonzo. Both of those things can be true and I think are true in this instance. The stats really do speak for themselves and I appreciate what Mike Cracker is saying here in terms of it's, you know, the difference in points is not the same as the difference in performance. But it's not there, accident. You know, there is certainly luck that comes into Formula One, not just that Aston Martin and all teams, but 170 points versus 47 speaks for itself. Seven podiums versus zero speaks for

itself. 12-2 in qualifying speaks for itself. Landstrol has been knocked out in Q3 seven times so far this year. Fernando Alonzo is yet to fail to reach Q3. So, yes, you can have instances of bad luck here and there, but that isn't bad luck. You cannot put that just down to the poor luck that Landstrol has had. That is performance. So I think that's, I think everyone kind of knows where Fernando Alonzo and Landstrol are relative to each other, but those stats really do prove that. In terms of the gap that Mike Crack is talking about here, So Mike Crack actually says that the gap is only around three tenths of a second between Fernando Alonzo and Lanchstrol. And you might say only because that's still a fair few times,

but he thinks it's 0.3 seconds. And I don't know if he's wrong. I think in terms of pure performance, he might have a point in that I think it is closer than the stats display it as being. The problem for Lanchdroll is the consistency of Alonzo. Now, sure, Alonso is not regularly out-qualifying Landstrol by a full second. Especially at the beginning of this season, it was pretty close between the two of them. It was two temps here, two temps there. The problem is it's two temps every single session and every single race. It's that ongoing consistency.

So, yes, I think in terms of pure outright performance, he might be on to something. But if we are using a different version of performance and saying it's actually the consistency to perform at a brilliant level, which is what Alonzo is doing, then no, Landstrol is nowhere near that of Fernando Alonzo. And just to say, yeah, I do think Landstrol has had bad luck this year. You can look at Italy as an example of that, at a horrible weekend, just didn't get any practice time on the Friday. Saudi Arabia, he retired. Fernando Alonso, I don't think is retired from a Grand Prix this year, unless I'm forget. getting a I don't think so.

And of course, we can't forget that Lance Stroll started this season injured as well. So there have been instances of him having bad luck,

don't get me wrong. But does it mean he's on Fernando Walanzo's level? Of course it doesn't. And does this give him a bit of a cop out and maybe might crack

a bit of a coped out. Yes, it does. So I think this is just, yeah, both things are true here. I think what's also frustrating is this, whether it be a golf in performance,

or whether it be the three-tenths that Mike Crackers stating it is, there is a championship to contend for. And whilst neither of them are going to be winning the driver's championship, you still have the constructors to think about. And now if you compare them to their rivals here, you know, let's look at Mercedes. Both drivers have picked up poems. I think they have five in total this season,

four for Hamilton, one for Russell. And then Ferrari have got four poems in total, three for LeClaire, one for Sites. Now, the funny thing is, Fernando also has more podiums than both of those teams. He has seven on his own. Lance Stroll has zero. If Longstrol even picks up the level of consistency that the,

and I'm using this term widely, I'm casting a wide net here, if he even picks up the consistency of the second driver of the other two teams, so George Russell in this instance from the Seid and Carlos Seitz and the instance of Ferrari, then maybe Ashton Martin don't sit in a fourth place in the constructor's title. and actually they very comfortably are fighting with Mercedes for second because at this point, they're just as far away from Mercedes in second place who they were fighting with at the very start of the season. They were beating at the start of the season.

And actually they are now essentially closer in performance and results to McLaren, who sit further back in that fifth place spot. And if Lance Stroud keep letting them down and essentially runs as a one-man team, there's every chance that they go and finishing fifth place at the end of this season. And where do they finish in 2022? they finished in fifth place at the end of the season. So it's not like all this brilliant performance, all these podium, all this success.

It's going to mean anything. I mean, only half the garage, whether it be 0.3 ahead or not, is pulling the weight for the team. So, Lance Strull, whether he do, whether he do, that's great English. Whether he does have,

wherever he do, wherever he does have a 0.3 gap, a 0.5 gap, whatever it might be, bad luck, good luck. He's too far off the pace. And it is factually costing, Aston Martin in a championship where they need to be progressing.

Absolutely. Certainly they got away with it to an extent earlier in the season when that car was very comfortably the second fastest car on the grid. Now it seems to be changing every single race. And because of that, it's difficult to see Aston Martin finishing second. It's difficult to see them staying in the fight with Ferrari for third. I'm sure Ferrari will find a way to make that still a fight come Abu Dhabi. Abby, but they shouldn't be in a fight for third based on the driver lineup. I mean, if you put it

this way, all of the, if you take those three teams, all six drivers, all five of the six have got to at least 100 points so far this year. Lance Stroll's not halfway there to that mark. And that's the minimum. Certainly, Lance Stroll and Lewis Hamilton are a good result or two away from 200 points. So it's not, we're not talking about 10 points or 15 points. We're talking about multiple race victories that Lance Stroll would need, including retirements for other drivers, to even consider catching up. Lance Stroll could go on a four-race win streak,

and he's still not going to be up to where Fernando Alonzo is, which should really illustrate the point of how massive that gap is. And what do you think about next year? Of course, that's what we're talking about. He's contracted again next year. Is it likely to affect their position in the championship again? Well, yeah, I don't see how this is not going to affect their position in the championship next year. I mean, for a lot, so is still brilliant, right?

We're still giving him plagues every single week. He still is regularly one of the most intelligent drivers up and down the grid. We hear how he thinks he's so vocal in how his strategies work and what he's doing. But he's only going to continually decline throughout the rest of his career. He's not going to suddenly have a second win to be even better than Fernando. So, you know, this year, last year, whatever it might be. And that's not a bad thing for Fernando, because he's already in the top 10% of your Formula One drivers currently, he's going to drop to like 12% off of Max Verstappen, rather than 10% off of Max Verstappen, for example.

But Lance Stroll is also not improving year on year. The issue is Lance Stroll is starting off at 65% off of Max Verstappen, and he might drop down to 70% of Max Verstappen, or simply plateau. So when your key driver, Fernando Alonso in this case, is not really going to get any better at best. You will remain consistently the same. I don't see how the other driver who is younger, has more time to develop. In theory, should grow further into this sport is also going to do the same. How that benefits you long term, because you look at the rivals again.

Lewis Hamilton will likely stagnate and be as good as he was last year because we know, Lewis, his consistency, much like a long. So it's the key thing here. George Russell, probably grows in confidence again, takes some. a step forward. Charles Clair, if he's got the car, probably takes a step forward again, feels confident. Carlos Sainz-Frey does the same thing.

And the worst part is, we'll just spoke about the points. Landon Norris, who is on, I think, 80 points, already more than Lankstrol, and already only 20 off that 100 mark, despite the handicap that they had for the first six races of the season,

you know, is likely going to get better again. And Oscar Piascri, who I believe has had severe bad luck since the car's been good enough anyway. And you remember, he got that car later than Landon Norris did, is already on about 40 points. It's not, I think he's about 11 points away from Lance Stroll already. And he's the only other person in the entire group that hasn't got a podium.

I genuinely feel that's more unlucky than it is not deserved as well. So I really do think that Ascom Martin could be in trouble unless they build an absolute world beta of a car where, you know, you put Mazaping in it and it could win races. The level that Red Bull have now, maybe even better, which I can't see happening. No disrespect for Asking Martin. I can't see it happening. they will fall to these powerhouses of Formula One that do it time and time again. Red Bull will comfortably bounce back even with their limited wind tunnel time.

Mercedes are Mercedes. They have the best driver line up and some of the best minds and money in Formula One. Ferrari, Ferrari, pretty much the same thing, which is a weird expression because it's Ferrari. And McLaren, I've got this brand new system that seems to be really benefiting them, and we might just see this brilliant young lineup take a step into its golden age coming to next season. What to Asthmartic bring that's different, unique, new, citing. Nothing is exactly the same and in theory it'll only get worse and most of that is because

of Lank's stroll. If you have a driver, I think maybe 15 of the drivers on the grid would help Ashton Martin to at least a third place this season. At least 15 other drivers could probably comfortably do a better job than Lank Strel. It does have to be demotivational for Astoran engineers, anyone working on the car. It's got to be demotivational because let's not, let's not be around the bush here. They can see the other teams they're up against. They can see the other drivers who are in the other garages. And your mind wanders to, well, what could that driver do here instead of Lance Stroll? Like there's absolutely no way that you've got people working at that team going, well, we've got the best that we can possibly have here.

And don't get me wrong, Lance Stroll is okay. Landstrol is perfectly okay as a driver. I'm not suggesting for a second. He's a bad driver. The problem is okay looks pretty bad when you're up against great, which is where Aston Martin are at the moment. Certainly, Lance Stroll has spent time in the midfield of F1 and looked perfectly all right. But there, he's mostly racing up against similarly okay drivers. Maybe drivers are slightly better than him, but not considerably so. Now, he is going up against the elites of F1. He is going up against Lewis Hamilton, his teammate Fernando Alonzo, the two Ferrari guys that we rate very highly, suddenly OK doesn't cut it. And it does make you look very bad very quickly. So yeah,

I think there is every chance that not only will it cost them a position or two this year, it might well cost them a position or two next year. And certainly you're right about McLaren. They're only getting better. They aren't going backwards. And there are other lineups out there. give Alpine a try, Ghazly and Ockon are likely to outperform Lance Stroll if given a similar car. So, you know, hopefully from from Lance Stroll's perspective,

he can do enough to at least justify his position in the sport. I don't think you'll ever get me on board in terms of he deserves a spot at a team that good. But certainly, I hope the luck turns around for him so he can get a few good results under his belt to help him along. he's been in F1 long enough now that I think we know what Lance Stroll is and more importantly what he isn't.

If Aston Martin finish the 2024 season and their results of being what they were, they were joint sixth with Alpha Romeo in 2022, they are likely to be at this rate, fifth in 2023. And let's say they're fifth again next season with the amount of money and, you know, they've built this whole new factory and they've stolen so many team members and they've gone big with Fernando Alonkso, do you think then that if they were to finish fifth again next season, fifth this year, fifth next year, that that is a categoric failure or is it in some way a success for them? It's a categoric failure because they could achieve more. I always think that's the case. If you can achieve more and you're not doing so for a reason that is within your own control,

which it absolutely is, I've struggled to call that anything else other than a failure. And, you know, in terms of Landstrol occupying one of the seats, certainly, if you look back to a couple of years ago, when they had the opportunity to have Perez and Vettel as their two drivers, they passed on that. That was an opportunity for them that they decided to go against. Peres versus Stroll, Stroll won out. And if you're not going to make the decision there where Sebastian Vettel coming into a team four-time world champion, alongside Sergio Perez, who at that point, I think had probably been the team's best driver for the last 20 years. Like if you're going back to the Jordan days and the Force India and racing point days,

like that Perez performed at a high level for the team for years. I don't know if there was a better driver than him at that team for, you probably have to go back to Heinz Harold Frensen in 1999. Like, so to pass on that, it almost presents the question of, well, what would make you pass on that? if not then, for what reason would you do it? Yeah, I... There is a frustration about it

because you want all of these teams competing at the top if they have the means to do so, and there is an element of Lance Stroll not being good enough that is costing us a potential valid three-team fight for second place in the championship. Yeah, if Lance Stroll was a different driver who scored, let's say, 20% less points than for Andrew Alonso,

I think Alonso, I think Alonso's on what one. 173, something like that. There might be more than that. I've got my, I've got a little note here. I can have a look quickly. So is a 170. Yeah, 170. So if you were to take 20% off of that, which is 34, you know, that brings you down to, what,

1,36. So if you have 170 or 136 together, you get 306 points. That puts them 33 points clear of Mosegis in second place. That's the difference here. They go from being a distant fourth to Maseggis in second. to a comfortable second with the saying is desperately trying to raise them down. It's not good enough. So back to Mike Crack's original point, the golf isn't that big, it's not costing them,

it's doing everything but not costing them. It is hurting them endlessly. They are hemorrhaging results and points because Lance Stroll is not good enough. We're going to take our first short break. We're going to be discussing the cost cap on the other side. Yay! Now, a quick word from our friends at NorgVPN. Are you tired of missing out on live sport events because they aren't televised available in your country?

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free. It's completely risk-free with North's 30-day money back guarantee. It's basically a free trial. Okay, there was a rather short statement by the FIA over the last couple of days, which indicated that all 10 teams have met the $140 million cost cap that was in place for 2022. Now, if you remember, remember back to last year, of course. Not only was this news slightly later, I think it came in October last year, and the news came there that Red Bull had overspent and were consequently penalised for that. I think Aston Martin as well also had a procedural issue, so they were reprimanded rather than fully penalised. But it seems as if this year all 10 teams have been in compliance with that cost cap. Are you glad no one went over, Sam?

I mean, thank for content, disappointed, because, you know, we get a big wind of content up our bottoms that we can talk about time and time again. But in terms of,

you know, the sport that we know and love, in terms of fairness, and what is hoping, the aim of the cost cap, of course, is to level the field. They've all followed it.

They've done their job. They've all, well, I say they've all learnt. One of the teams has learned from last year and they've complied with the ruling. So it was also nice to see,

and the fear here was that because Red Bull broke the cost cap last year and their punishment, I think we all agree is minimal for what it gave them perhaps. There was the temptation there, I imagine, for a lot of teams to go, well, if that's the punishment for an extra 10 million, an extra 12 million, why don't we all do it? I will just take off a small, if we all do it and get 10% off of our wind tunnel time, it doesn't make any difference. So that's all chuck it in there and being aorty.

But no, I'm really glad to hear that they all passed. I think it's very positive. And hopefully, going forward, this is going to be a regular thing. Something that hasn't been released that I'd be really interesting to know is, did every single team meet the cost cap, or were they drastically under the spending up the cost cap? I don't think we know those figures yet. No, and I don't know whether we actually learned those figures last year or not.

I think it's something that should be posted. I think it should be known. It's certainly a feature of other cost cap leagues and sports where everyone's fully aware of where you're at in terms of the cap. So I don't think this should be any exception. I think that if it, you know, if it doesn't become available, I think it should be available. But likewise, I'm glad that no one went over. In most instances, I pray for the content. But on this occasion, I'm happy to sit back and say that. I'm all right with this. It was a full-blown saga last year with Red Bull. And I think, I would hope everyone can

agree, regardless of whether you thought they shouldn't be penalized or they should be penalized or they should be penalized more than what they were. I think everyone can agree that it didn't show F1 in a good light. And we're not going through that again, which I think is good news. And like you, Sam, I was a little bit worried because I agree, I thought the Red Bull punishment was light and I thought it should have been much more severe. But I was worried that other teams would look at the punishment and say it's probably worth the overspend. So I think either the extra clarity that the FIA gave at the beginning of this year has worked, which I thought was a good thing when they did that at the time,

or the threat of a penalty was higher potentially, not that we really got wind of that in the public eye, but maybe behind the scenes there was threat of bigger penalties this year. Or, and there is a third thing here, maybe teams got smarter, which in all honesty, I think it's probably a combination of all three of those. Yeah, I think so. Regardless, we don't know the inside of that detailing. And for now, at least, they've all tipped the boxes and we are going to, in theory,

and I say in theory, because, Ben, I think we're about to talk about this, get a completely fair and balanced season. What's the next point to this, Ben? Well, is it working? Exactly. Is it working? So, I mean, you look at Red Bull, who, you know, again, we've already said, this broke the cost cap agreement and have excelled massively. Max Verstappen in particular, but you can't argue that Sergio Perez hasn't had a good run of results, picking up a couple

of victories, whereas every other team has, in theory, fallen further behind this year. Another thing I don't like about the current cost cap, which is quite funny, actually, our lord and savior, James Vals, who is arguably best friend. Best friend in the podcast. We love him. Oh, thanks him a little bit, really. We've got kind of like weird. Unapologetic. Yeah. Yeah. What a gorgeous, brilliant, intelligent man. The point here is, he came out and said, and I really respected his honesty of saying, when I was at Mercedes, we petition that the cost cap include facility costs as well, building of new facilities, running of facilities, the hiring of staff and gaining materials

for any facilities. And of course, Mercedes at the time were the absolute cream of the crop. They were at the top of the running order, and it meant that in theory, no one could catch them. Or no one knew who could catch them. James Vowskine finds himself arguably the least successful team in Formula One over the last decade. And he has come out and said that Williams are $300 million down in facilities that teams like Mercedes do not have.

Now, because of the agreement that they all signed, and he said that Mercedes we've jumped at this opportunity, what's given to them, it's negatively affected Williams because they cannot invest in tech, in facilities, in areas that would bring them to a level playing field of competitors such as Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes. And so they're having to do things in a very different, difficult way that allows them to try and get back on a level playing field. Now, you've got to applaud James Vowles, Williams, Alex Album, for the results that they're currently getting this year because they seemingly are doing things with one

hand behind their back. So is it working on track somewhat? You know, it's better than it has been for a. new era of Formula One. I think part of that is down to the new aerodynamic regulations that we're seeing. I think that definitely helps. I wonder if that is allowing the cost cap to look better than it actually is. But in terms of team development, in terms of if you're maybe a new team and you want to add stuff, Aston Martin are going through that same thing with adding facilities, can you ever bring yourself now to a consistent level playing field with the likes of Ferrari,

Mercedes, Red Bull? If you can't ever spend that much, you have to sacrifice so much elsewhere, to give yourself the foundations you need to be competitive. So overall, no, I do think some cost cap changes need to be made to allow teams like Williams, like maybe even the likes of Haas if they want to invest, to grow their facility side to allow themselves to be a far more equal and competitive unit. Yeah, and I know the 300 million pound or dollar, whatever it was,

point that you made. I know it's something that we discussed about a month ago, I think. And at the time, I remember saying that it was, you know, the cost cap is a good starting point. And I think it is, it's brilliant that it's in place. And I've been 100% behind the idea from the start. But certainly, I think it is 30% of a solution or 50% of a solution. And I think it doesn't go far enough. There are things that aren't included that I think should be. And it does mean that teams that were infrastructurally, if that is indeed a word, behind going into the cost cap era, don't really have an opportunity to catch up. And it's something, again, I think I might mention this at the time, that is that it does give an opportunity for someone like Audi or someone like Andretti,

if they enter the sport, where they are free to spend as much as they want to on the lead up to Formula One, in terms of building your home base and building wind tunnels or whatever it might be, you're not really bound by anything at that point. But by the time you get into Formula One, you're kind of ready to go within the rules of the cost cap, which I don't think is fair for the likes of Williams that you've mentioned and other teams that are in similar positions, where they can't really invest. So certainly I think that there should be ruling about what's included and what's not included more so than there is at the moment. I think overall it is still working,

and it sounds weird to say that just based on how dominant Red Bull have been, because there is a big dollop of irony to the fact that we have now gone into a cost-cap era and we have had arguably the most dominant season of all time. However, the gap between first to tenth is smaller now than it ever has been. I know we like to rip on the quote imposter's of Hasse and other teams at the back of the grid, but they are still far closer to the front of the grid than other back market teams have been in even recent years. The likes of Manor and catererum, and we're not having to go back even a decade for those teams, they were considerably further back than what we see Hasse.

the likes of Hasse are still within, I don't know, 103% or so of some qualifying poll times. Certainly, you know, in terms of race pace, Hasse might be the weakest on the grid, yet they are still making Q3 appearances when Nika Holkenberg. So overall, I think the gap from first to last, the whole field spread has been limited. And actually, you just have to respect how well Red Bull are doing out front. is part of it as well. You know, their engineers,

their designers, Max Verstappen, have gone above and beyond, and they deserve a lot of plaudits. It's a shame. It's just a slight tarnishing with the brush of, well,

could you have done it, staying within the rules last year? Because that would have made it even more spectacular. I do think that maybe FIA should make a list of the facilities that the likes of the Sagan, they should compare the Sages-Rabler and Ferrari

as the top. and go, what facilities have you got? And you should almost be given a grant where you're allowed to spend the value of those facilities to build them and nothing more. So I don't know, state of the art wind tunnel costs 80 million to build. Okay, you get giving a ticket from the FIA that says, Williams, you're allowed to build one wind tunnel of 80 million that we will closely supervise. And then that's it, you know, kind of thing.

So everyone gets brought to the same level of tech specs. but it's difficult to mitigate, it's difficult to monitor, it's tough to understand who might try and do something sneaky or naughty or different. So, you know, we're living in a Formula One where everyone will try and break the rules the moment you give them any kind of rules anyway. Tough one. Work needs to be done, but it's, as you said, Ben, the gap is so much closer than it ever was,

that in some method, some manner, it surely is working in some respect. I think as well, one of the continual problems with the cost, cap is being able to distinguish what is Formula One related and what's not Formula One related, particularly for teams that have entries and other categories and even, you know, roadcar usage. It's difficult to distinguish between them. Certainly the FIA made an effort of it earlier this year to say, look, we're putting in more checks to see what actually is going towards F1 and what's not. So I think that's, you know, that's a good sign.

But it is really difficult to say, you know, even in terms of like the infrastructure you have in place, this might be an extreme example. But that wind tunnel, nah, that's our air conditioning unit. We just keeping people cool at Brackley. There's no problem with that. Right. Okay. We won't include that.

Which, of course, I'm joking. But there is an element at least of, you know, what can, it's murky. And I don't think there'll ever be an exact solution to it. and I'm glad the FIA are taking it seriously and realizing that is a significant loophole the teams can use, but closing it off completely, that's going to be a challenge.

All right. We're going to take another short break. We're going to be discussing some Toto Wolf comments right after this. Oh, Papa Toto. Oh, Papa Toto. Okay, Toto Wolf has recently made some comments about Max Verstappen's record-breaking 10th consecutive victory. seen this quote, he's called it completely irrelevant, which by itself I think is a little bit

out of context. So I'm going to read a little bit more of a quote than just that. He said, for me, these kinds of records are completely irrelevant. They were irrelevant in our good days at Mercedes. I don't know how many races we won in a row. I didn't even know there was a count. However, Toto Wolf then did admit that Vostappan success shows a great driver in a great car competing at an extremely high level. So I don't think he's doubting the impressiveness of the record here, but he is doubting the relevancy of it. Do you think he's fair in what he's saying? Or is this, is this jealousy? Oh, no, you know, we have the conversation about Hamilton on Bostappen in the, in the, what, the midweek. And bang, I think now I thought about you rightly pointing out that

there was some jealousy within Hamilton's statement. But this really reeks of jealousy. This reeks of, stop giving them the attention. I don't like Red Bull. And I think Toto Wolf is fully aware and quite complimentary of the level that Max Verstappen is performing at here. And that's fine. That's good.

And I think he can be humbling enough to admit that Max Verstappen is, you know, essentially the next generational talent after Hamilton and then before that, it was Vetter than before that, it was Schumacher. You know, they all come along one at a time and they seem to reap all the rewards.

But I don't want to hear this absolute codswallop. that you think that these records are meaningless, they don't exist, you don't keep track of them, the amount of times in interviews across the Mercedes dominant era, you know, when they won eight Constructors Championships in a row and seven driver's titles in a row, that he never once said, Lewis Hamilton is the best ever, the greatest of all time.

I've heard him say that in interviews so many times, and what are you basing that on, Toto, if it isn't championships won, race is one, qualifying records, you know, because if you remove records from the history books of sport, then it all becomes irrelevant. It all becomes nonsensical and pointless. And what are you achieving? What history are you building?

What funding are you hoping to gain from marketing and from historical elements? How can you claim that Lewis Hamilton is the greatest of all time if you can ever ever look at statistics? Because a statistic is what makes someone the greatest of all time. you know, Hamilton won seven titles. Well, if you don't look at those, they're irrelevant. So he won no titles, or is he won all the titles? And what makes Yarno Trulli any worse than Lewis Hamilton at this point?

Because Yarno Trilly was really good at qualifying. Nothing. Nothing is the answer. Thank you. So this is pure, loathsome, jealousy because, and I get it, every right to be jealous, there's another team that is wiping the floor with both of your boys and your team that you spent a fortune on where you were so successful beforehand.

mentioned in the midweek one that jealousy does fuel this desire to get back to the top. And it is actually a very healthy emotion to feel in sport, in, you know, especially in Formula One, where, you know, it is about being ruthless and cut through it and getting yourself to the top and being dominant. And he needs that because I think if he didn't feel jealous, if he didn't feel anxious or frustrated or angered by what Red Bull are achieving right in front of him and all the plauds it's there getting, then that says to me he's lost. the drive, you know, no pun intended. He's lost the desire. He's lost the want and the will to be at the very top of the game. So it is jealousy, and I'm glad it is jealousy. I'm glad that

Toto Wolf is, as much as the comments are a bit obscene and a bit ridiculous. I am glad that he's fighting them and publicly he's still showing that fire. But I do wish he chooses words differently because the amount of times he's gone on about Hamilton being the greatest of all time. And when Hamilton achieved set record, you know, he'd beat Sen. poll amount. He went over 100 race wings. He picked up the seventh world title. It was all lauded in praise by Toto

Wolf because of the historic significance that Lewis Hamilton has achieved. And 10 race wings in a row by Max Westappen is historically significant. It is an incredible achievement to make and one that I am, I'm not a fan of the staffer, I don't follow him, I don't follow any driver. But I'm glad I've seen it. I'm glad

that I got to witness Max Verstappen with 10 in a row because as much as it wasn't the most thrilling moment in Formula One, it's pretty cool. pretty awesome to say that you've done that in our sport. So I think he just needs to crack on with his own job, make the team better, and he can go back to talking about his own records in a couple of years' time if they ever get back on top. My thoughts are he has phrased this, and I agree with this. I don't think he's phrased this very well. I actually agree with him for the most part. I just think he could have phrased this better in that where he's saying

records are irrelevant, I think he's pointing. records are the sort of base for championships. So championships are always the end goal, which I think is something that every F1 team should share. And it doesn't really matter necessarily how you get there, whether you get there by one point, 100 points, by two drivers scoring the same number of points, or one getting 70% and the other going 30%. The end goal is win both championships.

And I think what he's saying here is having 10 race wins in a row by itself, like purely strip away everything else by itself doesn't really mean anything. Now, if those 10 wins contribute to you winning a title, then it is relevant. But certainly if you were to say, you know, would you rather have 10 straight wins or a title, you would take the title? Would you rather have 14 straight pole positions or a title? You would have the title. I, again, I'm kind of guessing here in terms of what he's thinking and he's going to be able to know what he's thinking better than I do.

But I think maybe what he's saying is if a driver takes six straight wins and then doesn't win one and then takes another six straight wins. And you've got, you know, in that, you've got 12 wins out of 13 races. You could say in terms of how impressive that is, that's about on a par with 10 straight wins, right? I mean, you've got, you've had one blemish in 13 races. One of them will show up in the record books. The other one won't, but they're both probably going to end in the driver's championship. So I know he's referring back to his days when Mercedes were collecting these records. And who knows, maybe he was paying attention to them a bit more when he was actually claiming them.

But yeah, I think, and again, I think he fully appreciates the impressiveness of the town. he's diminishing what Vostappen's done, I think he is, he's certainly downplaying the achievement to an extent, but I think he's probably referring back to what are we in F1 for, it's for the titles, and ultimately these, I think he might have referred to them as Wikipedia stats or something along those lines, don't mean quite as much. But honestly, I'm having to guess a lot here, because you know, when you come out and say something is irrelevant, it kind of naturally does lead to people going, ah, that's a statement and a half, isn't it?

And Toto, don't be putting down Wikipedia, mate. That's the seventh most visited website in the world, you know. I dig a lot of my dissertation, thank God to Wikipedia. What are the six more visited websites? We shouldn't get into those, Ben. Oh, really? This is a family-friendly podcast. I think families can use Google.

that. Google isn't a website searching you, mate. Does it not still count as a website? To my knowledge, no, I'm going to look it up now. Top 10 most visited

websites ever. Not beginning with P. Wikipedia has got a list, which is great. And they're wrong it themselves. Okay, so fair enough to you, Google search is number one, but it is considered a search engine, but it counts.

Then YouTube, then Facebook, then Instagram and Twitter, then Beidu.com, which is, I believe, a Chinese search media, then Wikipedia, then Yahoo, then Yandex, which is Russian, and then WhatsApp. So I think meta have kind of dominated. Hang on this is so off topic. Anyway, let's move on. I can actually hear Kirstie rolling her eyes right now. Yeah, she's grateful. she's not here this evening. We've been left just the two naughty boys to get on with it. My phone's on silent, I promise you, Kirsty. Yeah, I'm not doing what disturb. Okay, let's move on to Daniel Ricardo, because it's now expected that he will not be racing

until the Qatar Grand Prix at the very earliest, which means, of course, the Singapore Grand Prix that we already knew he wasn't going to be racing at will be taken over by Liam Lawson. And similarly, the Japanese Grand Prix will be driven in by Liam Lawson at a track where, I guess he's got a bit of experience based on his super formula recent season there. So, yeah, you've got two races where it looks like Liam Lawson is going to be in position. And it's Qatar at the earliest, realistically. So even if Daniel Riccardo returns at Qatar, that only leaves him, I think, six Grand Prix until the end of the season, which naturally isn't as much of a sample size

as he and indeed Red Bull would have wanted to work with when they're making the decision about Alpha Tauri for next year. Do you think that this gives Daniel Ricardo enough time to prove himself? I think this is devastating for Daniel Ricardo. I don't think I've seen... Really? I do.

I don't think I've seen worse timing for a driver in terms of something like this happening than I have seen for Daniel Ricardo. I think actually, Daniel Ricardo is quite lucky that this sounds ridiculous, that he is Daniel Ricardo though, because his aura, his personality, and his previous achievements within the Red Bull family.

Can't forget him. You can't forget him. And they will be carrying him at this point because I think Liam Lawson, all he needed was a one race sample size. And he's got two now, and he's going to double that again. So he's, you know, times forward his experience.

And arguably, he's got embarrassed himself, if anything, I think he's impressed. And I think that when you look at the end of the season and you go, Daniel Ricardo will have got eight races in terms, you know, the two before the summer break and the six, potentially afterwards, might be less than that if he doesn't make back for Qatar. And Lorsa would have had four, so 50% of what Ricardo has got at that point, you kind of think these two are comparable.

You know, there's not, you can look at the results and the types of tracks that we went to and how they handled the car. And Yuki Sangha, I imagine, is now going, oh God, everyone's getting a very good sample size to be looked at. And he hasn't showered himself in glory since Belgium when, you know, Daniel Ricardo was really at his full force in the Alpha Tauri team. So I think Ricardo is lucky that he's Ricardo. I still think this is devastating for any driver.

I think you'd have to be a multiple-time world champion to realistically be able to get away with only running a couple of races. And I think Lawson is going, yippee, lucky me. I'm going to keep showing up. And I think Lawson will be driving the races of his life in both Singapore and in Japan and potentially Qatar to go, look, I'm not a one-hit wonder. not licked of reason Monsa last year, I'll keep beating Yuki. I'll keep getting it possibly into Q3 or fighting for points. And he's impressed massively so far in both races. I think this is

the gift of a lifetime for someone like Lawson. Ricardo's got a hope that Lawson mucks up and his previous plaudits, achievements is what I'm trying to say. Can I speak for themselves? I think he needs history to do the talking for him at the moment. Yeah, certainly. I mean, that's kind of all got him in the seat in the first place. I guess that plus his experience at the team, but certainly anyone looking at his McLaren form, his McLaren form didn't get him a seat, put it that way. And he's already, I think, here based on what he's done in the past.

I agree that this is horribly unlucky. And actually these longer term, I don't know if you can call it long term, but certainly missing more than two races because of injury, it so rarely happens in Formula One. Certainly if you look, we've had instances over the last, say, five years of reserve drivers coming in and doing a race or two races. If you think of de Resta replacing Massa at the Hungarian Grand Prix in 2017 or Jack Aitken doing a race for Williams in 2020 or Holkenberg doing a couple of cover races because of COVID. Robert Kubitsa did, I think, two races when Kimi Reichen and was out for Alfa Romeo.

But in all of these instances, it's one or two races. Even if you look at something like Grojean's horrific crash at Bahrain, that only cost him two races. That cost him the race after that and Abu Dhabi that Fitzpaldi did. So it's actually really rare that a driver's going to miss multiple races because of an injury. Even like Lance Stroll, I'm not going to say he was lucky to have the injury, but he was lucky to have the injury at a point where he could still. recover for the first race of the season. Because otherwise he might be, he might have been in the same spot as Daniel Ricardo right now.

Alpha Tauri have a really difficult decision to make over the winter break. And that's a slight projection because we don't know exactly what Lawson, Sonoda and Ricardo will do for the rest of this season. But there is every chance they have a situation where Liam Lawson has this, a mixture of solid results and new driver hype, which I think is a thing. Daniel Ricardo has history on his side, and it still does have a little bit of time to try and perform. Yuki Sonoda, despite struggling a little bit in a couple of recent races, has still had the best season of his career so far. And you look at someone like Yuma Owasa in Formula 2, he's probably there saying,

my F2 careers about as good as Liam Lawson's has been, I think I deserve a shot. So you do have multiple moving parts in this situation. From Daniel Ricardo's perspective, I think he needs to do one of two things to guarantee a seat there next year. Number one, deliver a standout performance. And I'm talking probably top seven or so. Like a performance, you can go, wow, yeah, Ricardo can do that. I don't know if any of the other drivers can. Either that, or let's say he has six races to work with at the end of this season. Three or four good performances, like borderline points,

maybe sneaking into the top 10. Because I think at that point, you've proven some consistency. Either way, I think works for him, but I think he needs one of those two just to confirm his place because he hasn't been given as much races to work with

as he thought he might do. I think the issue for Ricardo is, I reckon in his mindset, he was hoping to nail the second half of this season in Alpha Taur. and then get a shoeing for the Red Bull seat and kick Perez out going into the 2024 season. That feels like it's got to be completely off the cards at this point because as much as Perez has not had a great season, he's still doing the job that is needed for Red Ball for both

their drivers, right? They are first and second in the driver's championship. They're comfortably leading the Constructors Championship. As much as it isn't easy every weekend for him, he is getting the job done as required in the in the title race in the points. So he's also got putting up a fight for Stapping and I'm sure for Stauffling I much rather have a teammate that comfortably finishes behind him rather than someone who, if you were to bring Landon Norris Singh, for example, nine races out of 10 might be right on your heels, might be fighting you every single moment of that Grand Prix to take the win off you. So I think Verstappen might get a little say in this as well.

And currently Perez ticks the boxes as much I don't think it's amazing. and that means Ricardo, they're all fighting over that one seat, not a potential Red Bull seat, which I think he might have wanted. Yeah, entirely possible. And I appreciate these two situations aren't quite the same because they are at different points of their career when we're talking here. But, you know, Mercedes only moved on from Valtrey Bottas in that second championship winning seat when they were beyond certain on George Russell. George Russell 1F3, 1 F2, came into F1 with Williams, did a very good job for them for three seasons until the point where they went, yeah, okay, now we're going to take the decision now. Equally, I know Daniel Ricardo has had success previous to McLaren, but if we're just talking about experience at Alfa Tauri, they would have to base it on not even half a season to make that decision.

is a massive gamble and a massive risk that I agree. I don't think they are going to be prepared to take. So yeah, I think he is still fighting for a seat, maybe not the seat that he was hoping for. But yeah, one standout performance, three or four consistent performances, either way. I think he can secure a spot for next year, but certainly there's competition. I mean, we've seen what a standout performance can do for you, especially in the Red Bull family because you look at Nick DeVries, picked up, what, ninth place at Monza, gets himself on Al-Fatari seat. He absolutely mucked it up for himself, but he got the opportunity in the seat. So if Ricardo could pick up an eighth place and neither you king or anyone else in Al-Fatari this

season scores points any further than that, that might be enough to get him. You might be right. Okay, we're going to take our final break. We're going to play Pump the Breaks right after this. Yay. Okay, let's pump the brakes. Sorry, it was allowed at the soundboard. Soundboard. Oh no, shall I see if I can find it? I'd like to pump the brakes, soundboard. Hello, soundboard, are you there?

Folks, this is, pump the brakes. Good Lord, that's loud. But it has worked. Oh, it's playing again. Sorry, I even got that on half volume. Yeah, that's mad that. Sorry for anyone wearing headphones. Pump the brakes.

Myself and Sam are going to give an opinion relating to Formula One and the other one is going to say whether they're being an idiot and they should pump the brakes, or whether actually that's a solid opinion. You can keep thinking that, no penalty applied whatsoever. And of course, because this makes complete and utter sense, Dave Benson Phillips, who many in the UK will know as a children's TV legend,

has his gunge ready for anyone who gives an awful opinion. And we pay him 50p for every gunge that he does. He's not affected by inflation. Not at all. Please don't sue us, Dave Benson Phillips. Right. Have you got an opinion? I think that Formula One should bring back the Kerr's system

and we should get rid of the current battery format. I think I know what way I'm going to go with it, but I'd like to expand on your idea a little bit more. So it felt like drivers tactically really had to play a part of their, and put their battery into the race, and they had to monitor it and use it. and we saw it with a really good graphic folks. If you weren't watching Formula One back there,

it was a little battery pack that came up on the bottom. You could see them depleting their battery. And you really interestingly watch drivers use it to defend. Some would then, you know, deploy it later, wronging us straight to get the final book of slipstream. It was a really fun extra bit of strategy and racing and intelligence that got put alongside Formula One, whereas now with the current battery system,

as much as I like the fact that we have battery and, you know, we have some modes, a long of the time, they have to be pretty consistent with their modes. We haven't got engine modes, for example, anymore. I think it, we all know it's there, but it doesn't really add any more to the race. It doesn't get spoken about.

You don't hear about, you know, the battery being depleted for a lap. I just think that the Kerr system was a really fun and interesting take on strategy in the race. Yeah, I agree with it. I like the idea. So my opinion is that any aid for, overtaking, that includes DRS, that includes KERS, or any system really.

Whilst you might not love their existence, the more you can look at them from a strategic point of view, the better they are. And with DRS, apart from DRS chicken that's played at Saudi Arabia, it really is just a case of press button when inside one second and tried to make overtake work. But a push-to-pass system, a Kerr system, it does allow for a lot more strategic use. And I think that's, we want these drivers to think with their brains. We want them to be quick and we want them to be smart. And at the moment, maybe they don't need to be as smart as I'd like them to be about making overtakes. So I am in favour of what you said. Yay. No gunging for me. Dave, back in the cupboard until we go to Benz. Definitely no one pound day for Dave Benson

Philips. One pound Dave. One pound Dave. He can't be called that, I'm afraid. No chance. But maybe he'll be called 50p, Dave. Just like a really weird British version of 50 cent. Do you know what the TV program, The Queen's Nose? I don't think so. It was about having a 50p and I'm not going to go into it.

You don't remember it, but folks go and look it up. It was all about this kid. You had a little magic 50P and it was called the Queen's Nones because it had her face on it. It's a strange British TV program. I have no recollection of that. I might be setting myself up for failure on this one because it's actually really hard to define this and you might just say pump the brakes

because you can't give an answer to this. I think in the history of Formula One, Adrian Newey is the best Formula One individual ever. So I saw an argument for this, maybe four or five months ago, when it was clear that Red Bull were very dominant this year. And the thing is, he hasn't just been good at Red Bull, has he been? I'm sure you know the, maybe you want to give some more detail about his previous career to back up your argument.

Presuming he goes on to win both championships this year, which at this point it would be a shock if either of those didn't come true. he will be sat on 25 championships all time in that being 12 world constructors championships 13 drivers championship that spans his time at Red Bull with Verstappen, Red Bull with Vettel, you know, his McLaren and William Years as well. So yeah, he's had a lot of a success. Yeah, he's had more than any driver. Have you done your research? Are there any team principles that outrank him?

Not that I'm aware of. Certainly if you want to attach like owners like Frank Williams, then sure, then you're getting a comparison. And I appreciate that this whole statement is just like, how on earth do you quantify this? But I'm trying to think of another person that like outranks Adrian Nui is just being good at F1 in any regard. Like even if you extend it out to the likes of promoting or commentary,

like I can't think of a person that has ever done their job better than Adrian Nui has in the history of F1. Who's the bloke that McLaren stole off Red Bull, who was basically Adrian Nui's right-hand man, that also worked for God goes how many teams and won titles? Oh, God, I can't remember his name. That's going to really bug me. Well, that says enough, doesn't it? Sure. isn't he?

That's really unfair. It's really unfair. He's such a talented guy. But I've got... I've got complete a cropper of his game. You know what? I can't comfortably disagree with you to pour guns all over your head

because if you include all person and the drivers aren't the only people that are important in Formula One. He's also very hands-on, right? He's a key part. It's not like he's some admin guy that happens to being a part of every Formula One

wigan team has ever actually touched your Formula One car. Yeah, he's sensational. And I keep meaning to go read his book, actually, because apparently it's incredibly interesting. No, I can't go to you. I think it's a very fair argument. I don't know if I 100% agree, but I definitely don't

100% disagree. Sorry, Dave, no money for you. And in good news, I wasn't going mad. His name is Rob, Rob Marshall. Rob Marshall, yes. He must have quite a few up his sleeve. Yeah, I think he's doing all right for himself.

He'll do very well for himself next year when Oscar Piastri is world champion. So early prediction. Should he use that as pump with breaks, but there you go. If that happens, I will eat my shoe. I will not. I will not do that. We've done theirs with shoes before. I'm not doing it again.

It doesn't go well. Well, I'll do it for pump the brakes. No money for Dave Benson Phillips. We're in agreement with one another. I'll tell you what, Dave. Maybe you just want to gunge Harry for not. being here. It works. That is genuinely the lowest I can set the volume on anything on here. And it's still loud as hell. It's also long as hell that jingle. Yeah, the gunges longer than the pump

the brakes. We do actually have a live-la-flat-lifie version of the pump-the-breaks jingle, but I wasn't prepared enough to find it. Anyway, by the bye. I think that'll do it for this episode. Do you want to get us out of here. Yes, thanks, folks, for listening. We do appreciate it even on these non-race weekends that you show your support. We're having a great time as a podcast. We're having our most successful time ever. Last month was our best month of all time, and that was the summer break month.

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