The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Lando Norris vs Simon Pagenaud - The Esports controversy | Episode 47

Episode Date: May 7, 2020

After a controversial end to Indy Car's virtual Indianapolis race, the boys discuss the incident between Lando Norris and Simon Pagenaud. They also debate who they think was Schumacher's greatest rival, and play another round of F1: Back and Forth!Make sure to SUBSCRIBE! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to look out for new episodes every Thursday and Grand Prix Sundays. Hello and a very warm welcome to the late breaking Formula One podcast here. Another week without F1, another week in lockdown. But our spirits are high. We're back for some more debate, some more discussion. Thanks ever so much for joining us.

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Right. We're one minute in. We'll try and put the most serious points in first, just so we've got about a five-minute spell before we completely go off the rails usually. Yes, so tonight we've got a few topics we'd like to talk about. We're going to be talking about what happened at the IndyCar race, the eye racing event at the weekend.

A bit of controversy coming from that, so we'll see what the three of us think about what happened. we're going to be looking at who is Schumacher's greatest rival in his long and historic career. We're going to be talking about how the budget is set to be reduced back to $145 million for the 2021 season. And we're going to be playing your favourite game, F1 back and forth. And I'm sure Sam will be in with another theme song. But first, what happened at the weekend, the Indycar race? We saw Simon Pajano take out Lando Norris as he led the race with a few laps to go.

And then right by the line, Santino Ferrucci had a collision, which completely screwed up the order. And it's caused a lot of debate, a lot of heated debate, actually. So we thought we'd weigh in. Harry, what do you think about this? What do you think about the events that transpired? It's a shame. It's just a massive shame because, you know,

we're in this unprecedented time where the need and the demand of e-sports has grown exponentially. And, you know, and most sports have been doing it so well. And IndyCar has been one of, if not the best. It's up there with supercars in terms of presentation. They've been doing, it's been so slick. You know, they've got most of their drivers involved. The presentation from the commentary team, it's the actual commentary team that do the

real, real life Indy car. And there's some, you know, been some big hype around it. And, you know, and they've invited a guest, Lando Norris to take part. and then a professional driver, the winner of last year's indie 500, no less, goes and takes him out, which just seems, it's just a bit sad, isn't it?

There was a nice tweet from Will Buxton, so I'm not going to claim these as my own words, but I'll read them here. So he said, perhaps the biggest takeaway is that in recent weeks, the e-sports community has received validation and acceptance from real world races. what happened at Indies stuck two fingers up and belittled them. Their skills, their fans, their world, and that sucks.

And that, for me, it sums it up entirely. The e-sports community, which we follow, has been shoved into the limelight, and it's been great. But to have that happen to them just seems like it's a bit of a bit of a mockery. And yeah, it's just a shame. and Indycar don't seem to be doing much about it because a lot of the general consensus from people that aren't necessarily e-sports fans is that it's just a game.

But as Will points out, for some people, it's like a career. It's a way of life. So, yeah, it's a real shame. It's put a dampener on all of the other e-sports going on. But I'm sure that's not going to stop us watching and other people watching other esports events. But it's a shame for IndyCar.

Yeah, very well said. Sam, what do you think about what happened at the weekend? Well, I couldn't agree more, actually, with what Harris has said, and with what Will Bucksler said. Incredibly wise and correct words from the man himself over on Twitter. If you don't know what's happened, essentially, as Ben explained at the start, IndyCar, I've hosted as an esports race, and they tried to do a whole series, and they invited Dan Nauri, who is becoming a very large name in the world of Formula One, and one of the best up-and-coming drivers, and live on stream on Simon Padres. I think of the stream, though, less. The man that's Harry said who won the Indy 500.

A prolific game in the sport, announces with his spotter, shall we take him out, shall we slow him down, shall we have a go at him? And lo and behold, though he claims it's an accident, he pulls over in front of him,

going incredibly slowly, while Lando is leading the race and completely ruins it. Lando is not someone who takes him racing lightly. Lando was up for 24 hours beforehand, practicing over and over and over again because he cares.

He cares so. much about streaming. I think he cares as much about that, almost because he does about rear left one sometimes. He commits so much time with it. The same goes for the likes of Max Verstatham. Both of these guys are in an official e-sports team. They're part of an actual setup. They have a whole kind of strategy around things. They're all specialists in certain cars and categories. And as Harry said, it's a way of life for some people. You know, you've got streamers who are the likes of Jimmy Broadbent, who make a lot of money and have a lot of success and They're incredibly humbling people on YouTube and likes of Twit

who their entire lives are streamed over sim racing, their love of cars virtually, because a career in real racing isn't viable for everyone. You know, 99.9% of people can't afford to. They can't have the ability to. They've got, you know, other problems in the way that stop them getting involved in real life motorsport. And it is a solution for us kind of people

who haven't got the financial backing, or let's face it, the overall talent, so you get into something like a real race car. And when you lose the real world racing and all those sim races who have built this community, they've built a following, they've built an understanding and a respect for each other. And there is almost an unwritten rule, the same as in real life. You know, you have respect for each other. You don't take each other off.

And when all these real racing drivers decide to go, can't race anymore, what should we do then? In whatever chosen language they decide to say it, but still within all the accent, I imagine. they all turn, including the light of the sky, NBC, Indy car, Supercar, Formula One, wherever you want it to be. They all turn to Sim Racing. And essentially, they've just muscled out Sim races. They've decided to go, oh, you mean this? This was your seat?

Nah, no mind. I'm going to take that over now. And it's done two things. Yes, it has shown a fantastic light on Sim racing and Esports as a whole. People's following some jump through the roof. You know, esports and racing was the highest view of thing on Twitch for a long time. Lando had the most watched account on Twitch. I think one of the not virtual GPs had over a million views concurrently across all videos between it being live and the next week going.

It is an incredibly brilliant thing to see the exposure that it's had. At the same time, it's not really paid justice to those people that have built that environment. So when someone with the respects and the status that, Simon Pajango has, comes along and in a snap of the finger ruins so much of that. And people laugh at it, people criticize it. People say, oh, it's just a game. And that really demoralizes and demeans. A lot of what people stand for, a lot of what people live for.

That's not okay. I think Chris, I think his name is, that runs the new top gear now on BBC. He said something on the lines of, who really cares, it's just a game. It's not good for people. And that couldn't be more of a closed-minded, sad thinking that we have in the 21st century. I thought in 2020, we might have something a little bit wiser and a more open-minded, especially if it's still bringing so much entertainment to people who are in such a difficult time. As someone like Simon Pachango comes down, it absolutely ruins it.

For one of the largest games in e-sports now, Landon Morris, and everyone got to see that. And even Lando was furious, absolutely furious, throwing digs it in on social media. And it's just not what you need. You expect more professionalism. and from people who are paid this much, the response is involved. You know, whether they take it seriously or not,

they are representing the real racing series. And would you do that in real life? Well, I don't know, maybe you've been so used to it. You go out there on track and you do do it in real life. You need to be careful with what you're doing and who you're having an impression on. It's not okay to race about that on track or on the internet. People care about it.

Have a bit more respect for goodness sake. Yeah, it's hard to disagree with anything that both of you have said. It's just a massive shame to sum it up in one sentence. and I wanted to pick out one thing that Santino Farucci, who already has a, to put it nicely, a very dubious record, he said just as the race was coming to an end, of course he was involved in an incident where he essentially took out the car to the left of him

in order to try and crash over the line in front of him. He referred to it as just a video game, which to him maybe that's true and that's fine. You know, if they don't see it as a game, any more than a video game. I can understand that. That it might not be their wheelhouse. They might not feel like the real thing.

Absolutely fine. Got no problem with it. But it's incredibly disrespectful. It's incredibly wrong. And it's so, it's an ignorant way of thinking. It's very self-centered because his actions

and those actions by Simon Pajano, they affect so many more people than just themselves. Yes, it might be. be just a video game to you. Yes, it might not matter if you do that and you don't care about it. Absolutely fine. But the amount of people negatively affected and the amount of the groups that are negatively affected, it's just, it's massive. You know, you think of not only Lando Norris was his race ruined. You think of all of the other drivers who competed. You think of the irascing

platform. That's been disrespected. You think of the IndyCar series. That's been disrespected. NBC, the people who have put together the graphics, the commentators who actually commentate in real life on IndyCar events, you've disrespected their time, you've disrespected the time of every single person who's tuned in to watch competitive race, you've disrespected the sim racing community, you've pretty much disrespected every single member of the motorsport community by those actions. And that's not an exaggeration. And it just shows that there isn't any thought whatsoever from Santino Ferrucci in terms of what his actions can mean for other people. It's not a massive surprise. He's a spoiled brat and he's a child. And I don't think he's

ever going to grow out of it based on its actions over the last few years. The fact that IndyCar continued to big him up despite some of the actions that he's, that he's, you know, that he's done, says everything that you need to know. And it seems if no one's going to take him to one side and tell him, you know, this isn't acceptable. Your actions have a wide, have a wide reach. You need to respect that. Yeah. you know, take someone out in your own time, so be it. But when you're taking part in a race, which is intended to be an exact simulation of a race,

you know, take it seriously. And if you don't want to, retire in the pits and go home and just don't bother. For Santino Ferrucci, I wasn't surprised at all. Like, we've seen the incident of Arjun, 90 and in Formula 2, and a few other incidents as well. I was more surprised by Simon Pajano and I don't know if it's better or worse the reason that he decided to go and take out Lando Norris. Santino decided to take him out because it's quote just a video game. Simon Pajano decided to take someone out because he was bored and decided he didn't want a non-Indy car racer to win the race.

He didn't want someone, you know, a foreign, basically a foreign object coming over and winning the race. you didn't want that to happen, which is so petulant, it's so childish, it's pathetic beyond belief, and I'm expecting more from someone who has had such an esteemed career in the sport. And Indycar, and you've referenced this already, Harry, IndyCar's presentation has been so good. We've already commented on this podcast about how good we think the IndyCar presentation has been compared to other motorsports who have tried something similar. they have had a really massive opportunity. And I think to a degree they've taken advantage of that opportunity

to get some new fans in and to keep current fans entertained. IndyCar, even in the US, you know, isn't as popular as NASCAR, but across the pond even less so, you know, there is, I think, a false interpretation that IndyCar is a place for American drivers and failed European drivers. And I don't think that's true for a second, but there is that stigma. and you're expecting that stigma to be released by one of your top drivers taking out a Formula One racer and saying he doesn't want a non-Indic car driver to win it. It's only going to enhance that reputation.

And for those guys who are on the fence who believe maybe the standard of IndyCar isn't good enough for their time, it's not going to help that cause, is it? So I was really disappointed. This properly angered me. I know there are those who think it's just a video game. I think that does a massive disrespect to all of those people in the Sim racing community. The sponsors are racing themselves. The list goes on. They should be better and they should be punished and I don't think they will be.

Right. Enough for that. Let's move on to something else now. Yes, let's move on to something else. Michael Schumacher, you might have heard the name. He was quite a good Formula One driver. He won a few champions here and there. Not as good as Ricardo Rosset.

Well, who is as good as Ricardo Rosset? But Schumacher across his time, if you consider he debuted in the early 90s, his F1 career, pretty much spent 20 years, had a number of great rivals. But we're going to ask today, which was the best of the lot? Sam, I'm interested to know what you think about this. Who would you classify as Schumacher's greatest rival? Well, you know what?

Don't listen to what I'm going to say. I'm going to hang out of straight to Harry, who is the mid-lover of Michael Schumacher, and I'm going to listen to what he says because I haven't made up my mind yet. All right, yeah. Go on then, Harry. You are the shoemacher. Well, maybe I don't want to talk. talk first, maybe I want Ben to do.

No, I'm Jake. I believe, look, it's a tough one because there's two, okay, there's two for me. There's Mika Hachanan, because I think he

is, it was a different stage of Schumacher's career, but I think he pushed Schumacher potentially the hardest throughout his career. And then the other person is Alonzo, because Alonzo was the one who, who finally stopped Schumacher and Ferrari's run of championships. So I think I'm going to have to settle with Alonzo,

just because what he then went on, you know, well, he didn't go on to win any more championships, but he went on and was still pretty successful and is regarded as one of the best all-round F-1 drivers there's been. So I'd say Alonzo, and, you know, you'd argue Schumacher and Ferrari didn't have a good enough car in 05, but in 06 they did and Alonzo still beat him and I think he was always

potentially the person destined to topple Schumacher off his throne at that time and then going back to Hakenen yeah Schumacher it took him 98 he couldn't do it he sort of crumbled at that last race 99 he broke his leg kind of doesn't count but then even in 2000 Hacken pushed him to the final race

or the penultimate race can't quite remember now and yeah those two were like in a league of their league of their own in like 98 2000 so um I don't think I can put no I'm gonna go Alonzo just to have a conclusion on it I'll say Alonzo but I mean you know anyone who

anyone who beat Schumacher on his day you know Hill on his day beats Schumacher even David Coulthar did so I'm not saying they're his greatest rival but they deserve a place under good rivals. I'm surprised you don't think Eddie Irvine was his best rival. The only rival Eddie Irvine had was himself. And his mustache.

Eddie Irvine had a mustache? Does he out. Wow. If anyone can find a picture of Eddie Irvine with a mustache, then please send it to at Elbreaking on Twitter, because I want to see it. The lack of facial hair is what I meant by that comment, by the way. Okay, so it's not mustache a divine, as we've determined.

Sam, now you've listened to Harry's answer of Alonzo. Do you agree with him or want to go with someone else? Alonzo is a grand answer, as it's Hacking. But I'm going to go a little bit left field. And it's more about character for me. The person I'm going to say did not rival Schumacher for a long time. time he was not the best driver that Schumacher ever came up against. That doesn't mean that you have to have the best rivalry with the best driver you ever thought.

It depends on what happens between those drivers. And for me, it was all about one season, which I feel started a little earlier in history. But I feel like David Coulthard is Schumacher's biggest rival when it comes to on and off the track. Have a day off. No way, Jose. Coltard. So, 1998. happens, right? Absolutely destroyed what's going on. And we've seen the marching down the pit lane.

There's almost 50 cuffs. The chins go to war, you know, in what is an iconic moment in Formula One. They've shared race helmets. 2001 was an epic season where Cautard was pretty much the only challenger to Schumacher for the whole season. I'm not going to express endless amounts of detail on this topic, because I don't really think I'm the man to give that much detail on it. But when I, I, Oddly enough, and I think of Schumacher and his rival, and what produced the most heat and friction and animosity and drama, and one that I will oddly remember in a very fond way, is the rivalry between Schumacher and Coulthard.

And that's all I'm going to say on it. And a lot of people will disagree with me. And I understand why. I understand why. Hacking and Alonso, the flute Formula One theme tune may also disagree with me. But for me, Team Shulingham's David Coulthard is

Schumack's biggest rival in terms of who they are as people. Do you know what D.C. stands for? Direct comparison. Direct comparison. Didn't compete. Nice. I'm not going to pluck for David Coulthard. Although I understand where you're going with that, Sam. I'm going to go with your nearly option, Harry.

I'm going to go with me, Kachanan. it's particularly in 1998 as well those two were so far above everyone else including their teammates Eddie Irvine sorry Moustache Irvine and didn't compete David Coulthard of the 16 races that year they won 14 of them I think Hill won that crazy race in Belgium and I think DC won the race in San Marino

Oh I thought they didn't compete! He won one race Still competed. Mika Hakenan and Schumacher shared 14. What happened in 2001? What, okay, you're going to pick out? D.C. wasn't that close in 01. He was for half the season. I think Schumacher destroying everyone.

He did. Schumacher was untouchable as no one. But, yeah, back three years before, like 98, Hackan and Schumacher were leagues above everyone else. And I think that season by itself has a reason to believe, you know, it might be Hackening. and he really took it to Schumacher. And then 99, I think we were kind of robbed of a good finale there

because Hacken had made a lot of mistakes in 99, and you could argue got away with it in terms of winning the championship. Does he get away with it if Schumacher doesn't break his leg at Stowe? Who knows? I'd have loved to have seen the conclusion to that season as well. In 2000, I think people might forget 2000 compared to the other two, but until about four races to go, after Hakenham won that epic race in Belgium 2000,

when he managed to make that crazy overtake on the Kempel Strait, there was barely anything in it. I think Hakenen was ahead by a few points going into the last four races. Now, Schumacher clean sweep those four races, so it makes it look a bit not as close as what it was. But, yeah, those three years, 98, 90, 90,000, Hacken and Schumacher was absolutely amazing. So I'm going to, I'm going to put for Mika. But yeah, Damon Hill, definitely at the beginning of his career.

He was there. Even Jack Villeneuve, Harry for a year, and Fernando Alonzo as well. So a lot of great names, but not, didn't compete. Well, thank God that David Coulter was predicted the favourite there. He's taking it, folks. I'm glad that everyone agrees with me. Sam, Sam, in 2001, his best year in F1, Schumack had beat D.C. by 58 points.

everyone else by Morrow? D.C. had a really, I mean, Monaco and D.C., unreal combination. I mean,

you can't deny that D.C. Arican was in third and only nine points behind him. Yeah, that's, I mean,

when Michael Schumacher is that far ahead of your teammate is nine points behind a guy from a different team, I think D. D.C. does a good job there. You get a good job.

And I talked about personality. All we talk about is racing. when it comes. Some people think Formula One's about racing. I know. Absolute nutters. It's good thing that didn't get out of control.

Should we move on before we insult David Kulthard anymore? Oh, David Kulthard anymore. I do. We love D.C. We do love D.C. Oh, here they go. D.C. Look at that. You don't want him? No, yeah, that's it, boys. Go away. He doesn't want you anymore. He's got a hyniquing for me, and that's it.

You try to make me believe that you're currently talking to David Coulthor. I'm the only one of us that has spoken to David Kaltug, so go away. We shared a beer back in 2002. We should talk about more Formula One stuff now. We are talking about David Kulthard. Who would have thought? He's the epitome of Formula One. I mean, Ricardo Rosset.

Come on. Oh yeah, sorry, sorry. Second after Ricardo Rosset. His surname sounds like part of the Bopit controller. It was what way. Flip it. Cris it. Drop it.

Sping it. Ross it. It terrifies me how your brain works. All right. Moving on to, obviously, we know a budget cap is coming into Formula One with the new regulations. As it happens, the budget cap is actually going to happen before the regulations happen now. But the original amounts of $175 million has been revised down to $100,000. $45 million.

Not formally signed off yet, but it is expected that that is the way that it will go. Teams like McLaren wanted it to be even lower. Actually, I think McLaren were pitching a 100 million limit, but I think Ferrari at that point would have been like, no, no, no, not today. In which case, I think they compromised on 145. Harry, do you think this is a necessary step considering everything that's going on and the attempt to cut costs. I think what is necessary is that you do your Italian accent again.

That's incredible. I don't even know what it was supposed to be. Good. Well, that's fine. Yeah, I think it is necessary because of the current situation we're in. We don't want to lose teams. We're not in the naughties anymore where you could lose a team and another manufacturer, you know, would come along and sweep them up.

It's going to be tough on the entire world when we, you know, get out of the other side of this. We can't afford to lose the likes of Williams. Who else is a little team? Just Williams. I was going to, yeah, HRT, but yeah, Menardi. Kids can't lose all these little manufacturers. Zax speed. Yep, arrows. Lola basketball.

Yeah, we need them on the grid. No, it's even the likes of Toro. Bloody out. Can we call Toro? Does it count yet? We've not had 2020 because we haven't had it yet. Right, Toroso. Toroso in Force India, those lot as well.

We can't afford to lose them. So I think it's necessary. And like you said, Ben, I don't think you can go much. lower without Ferrari walking, sorry, no, no, no, walking away. So yeah, it's a good thing. And I saw, I think Karun Chandok tweeted to say he, he, I can't remember what he got it from, but like it's not far off what the 19, I don't know, 98 spending, spending limit, not a limit, the max spend from 98 or something like that.

I've not made that point very well. Going to look at Karun Chandott's tweet. basically it's not far off what it was used to be spent back in the day. Interesting. Great conclusion. I haven't seen that, but is that, do you know if that's measured in terms of accounted for inflation at all? Or is that actually? Yeah, so he put it through like a calculator.

I'm going to find a tweet now. Here we go. Here we go. 97, I was close. Quick calculation. 97 winning budget was 70 million quid. That's British sterling pounds, including drivers, not engines. using some bloody inflation calculator that works out to $128 million today or $159 million US

dollars. So it's only 50 million off. I mean, I got his point. Yeah, yeah. There's still a long way down from what they're currently spending. So it's a step in the right direction in that sense. Sam, do you think this is a necessary thing for them to do? The first point I want to make is that the way that Harry says,

Karun Chandok is like if you were to put Mac in front of his first name, it's like a macarung chandok. That is how Harry says Karung Chandok, like it's a macarum. Charon Chandok, it's like I'm saying it's Scottish. Yeah, that's how you say his name.

It's brilliant. I love it. I don't hear it forever. Karung, macaroon. Anyway, we've talked about inflation. We've talked about macaroons. Now we're going to talk about buckets again. I think it's a brilliant idea. I think it should be lower. I think it should be closer to 100 mark. I don't care Ferrari are walking off.

Ferrari throw their toys out the pram and literally any change it doesn't benefit them. What do you mean? We can't outspend race and point now to win. Maybe get some better engineers. Maybe get a better strategist. Maybe just become a winning racing team because you haven't done that for like 14 years now.

Honestly, Ferrari have to spend their way to victory. I think the likes of Red Bull, I think the likes of Mercedes. Yes, they spend way more than anyone else. but I still think that even on a reduced spending scale, they are going to have the talent and the ability to still win races, to still win championships. That's why I think they're more than happy to sign up for these reductions.

McLaren, you know, those who are now in fourth place and advancing have massive investment. They've got massively rich investors around them, and always have done, where one of the first people to come out and say, make it lower. It doesn't need to be higher. If we're going to go carbon neutral,

maybe even carbon positive, if we're going to have a more affordable race structure so that other teams can come in, the likes of Toyota couldn't afford to getting and they're out there bloody winning LMP1. You know, it tells you a lot when mass producers of cars such as Toyota can't afford. BMW don't want to spend the money

to getting Audi who have just dropped out of DTM. Don't want to come near Formula One because of the cost. We are missing out on so many brilliant, brilliant manufacturers and opportunities because it costs too bloody much and the risk is not worth the reward for a lot of people. So, yeah, screw that budget cap, make it even lower. They're going the right way,

they need to do more. Formula One needs to realize that it needs to become more glocal, which is such a business word. Oh, I know, I know. They need to have more of a symbiotic relationship. Yeah, they do. A bit more synergy. Oh, I'm sure Chase Carrie has that written across his door.

But they do. They need to be more aware of what is going on globally. I know it's a sport for the mega rich and, you know, millions get throwing around like it's nothing. But we are depriving us. and what could be a fantastically diverse and interesting grid full of drivers and teams and sponsors and parts of the world that don't get a chance because it costs too much.

So yes, lower the spending cap, make it more inclusive and allow teams who maybe are struggling financially to have more of a chance to stay alive. Otherwise, we're just going to negatively hurt the sport we love. So, yeah, I think it's brilliant. And I think that is the right step to take for keeping Formula One alive and relevant. Yeah, I agree that it's,

a necessary step to take it down from 175 to 145. Usually I'm very much against Ferrari and their modes and their complaints. Actually, on this occasion, I do understand why they haven't dropped it further to 100 million. I do think if you've got a team like Ferrari and Mercedes, particularly Ferrari because Mercedes do have Formula E, they are going to have to considerably downsize. I know that there are a lot of exceptions in terms of what is and what isn't count. in the budget. But regardless, they will have to drop down their spend quite a lot.

The Sades can, you know, divert some of that attention to Formula E. Ferrari are still very F1 centric. So there might have been the threat of layoffs. I do believe that was a legitimate threat. So I can understand why it hasn't gone down all the way to 100. However, there are still intentions for it to go down further in 2022 and then 2023. three, so it might just be a gradual thing rather than an all at once. I think the voice of reason, as he always is,

Gunter Steiner, probably had the best comment about this. And he actually, even though it might benefit has the most, one of the teams that benefit the most going down to 100, he could completely understand why it didn't go down that much. So, yeah, I think it's not formally signed off yet. So it's not set in stone. but I think this is a good idea. And it will make entry to Formula One a bit easier in the future.

We know how difficult it is to court manufacturers at the moment. We can't afford to lose a team, like you said, Harry. It's not something that we can really afford now with only 10 teams on the grid. We haven't had 11 for quite a while or even 12. And it's a big risk at the moment for teams coming in because no one makes a profit in Formula 1 at the moment, at least in terms of Formula One operations. The idea for these teams like Mercedes is they will break even in Formula One.

Then they will see the profit in terms of sales of their road cars. But the only way in which the investment becomes worthwhile is if you can, like Mercedes, spend all that money, take a gamble and get to the top of F1. It's why Renault have been struggling so much, is that they had the same plan. but if they can't get to the top, then they're not seeing that increase in road cars that makes it all worthwhile, this massive investment they put in F1.

So making this budget cap smaller means not only can the smaller teams like Williams start to turn a profit when they don't really have much else to sell outside of F1, so that's going to be a massive plus point for them. And also for bigger teams as well, in that they can maybe start to see their investment come back to them early on in their F1 life. rather than a number of years down the line.

Fair point. Very interesting. Wonder what everyone else since listening? Get in touch at L breaking rather on Twitter. Yeah, absolutely. We always want to hear your opinions on these matters. I think it's time, isn't it? 33 minutes, 53 seconds is the exact time that F1 back and forth should come on.

Oh, sorry. Then we do that again. That has killed my vibe. That has destroyed my vibe. Sam, nothing can kill your vibe. That's true. My vibe is endless. It's F1.

Back and forth, it's F1. Back and forth, it goes backwards. And then goes forth, it's F1. Back and forth, yeah, F1. So good. Oh, we should win some sort of award for that. I don't know what that award is, but yes, we should definitely win it. It's just come to my attention that we've been speaking about F1 back and forth throughout the podcast,

and I haven't actually explained yet what that is, because of course we do get people tuning in for the first time, if you are. Welcome along. And I'll explain to you what F1 back and forth is. So Harry and Sam will go up against each other head to head, and I will give them a category, a very random category. They have no idea what it is. And they will have to, as the title suggests, go back and forth with correct answers until one of them can't think of an answer or gets an answer. answer wrong. Sam, at least in terms of

F1 back and forth, you've won the last few. So, massive pressure. It seems I've started singing the theme tune. Oh, it is. Does that mean I need to sing the theme dream? Yeah, maybe sing it on a different podcast because you ain't winning. Duet to even the odds.

Oh, imagine F1 back and forth as a duet. All right. So here's your topic for this week. drivers who competed in the Red Bull dominant era of 2010 to 2013. So any driver that raced in those four years. Woo! I mean, Sam, since you won the last F1 back and forth, you can go first.

2010, yeah, we're starting? 2010 to 2013, any driver in that era? Fernando Alonso Fernando Alonzo unsurprisingly is a correct answer For the record there's I think 42 correct answers That you can get

Wow Harry Sebastian Vettel Since he won all of the championships In the years I've spoken about Yeah it's unsurising he's a correct answer Sam His teammate

Mark Weber Yes the very well known Austrian driver Mark Weber. Harry. Felipe Massa and his dad. Okay, I'll take the first half of that answer. I don't recall his dad ever racing.

He was part of it, though, Philippi Massa and dad can. To be fair, he was part of you. I love it. I love it. Sam? Lewis Hamilton. Yeah, he competed in a few races, didn't he? Sam.

Was he Harry? Yeah. Jensen, Chocolate Button. Hey! Very good. Bonus point for giving me his middle name. Yeah, you deserve it. Sam, who've you got? Michael Shoemaker.

He did make a lot of shoes in that time period. Yes. Harry. Nico Rosberg. His teammate. Yes, that's correct. Sam. Robert, as I always used to say, Kubica. Yes, yeah. You didn't call him Vettel, Harry. You've got to get with the era.

Sorry, sorry, sorry. Who have you got for your next? Like Kettle. Kimmy Reikinen. Kimmy Reikinen is a correct answer. Of course, didn't appear in the first part of that era we're talking about, but he did in the end come back for Lotus. Sam? Sebastian, don't blame me!

I knew you'd have to get that answer in. yes, Blamey is there. Harry. Roman, Roman, Roman, Rojan. We advise viewers and listeners not to roam on Roman Grojean, but yes,

it's the right answer. Sam. I'm not sure if you can pick up on this because it's quite Adrian, subtle. I'm expecting a joke to come with every single answer from now on, by the way. It's not going to happen.

Yes. That was a terrible one. It was. Harry? Nick Heidfeld. Quick Nick. You get five points for quick Nick Hydefeld because I just love him so much.

Amazing. Sam? Heamy Alderswari Nang. Jeez. Yep, you've competed the Toro-Rosso line up. That's good. Harry? Bruno Senna

Nice Yep It's a good thing you distinguish which Senna Because it could very well have been either in 2010 But yeah Bruno Santa's right Sam Pedro de la Rosa Apparently Pedro de la Rosa is now from working

But yes that is right Vitali Petrov The devil He's not the devil. Why's your devil? Have you seen his eyes? Leave Vitaly alone. You get the right answer.

Sam, who have you got? Best Japanese driver of all time don't hate Kamimi Kobayashi. Yeah, I'd say there's a case for that. But it is right. Yeah, Kamui is there. Harry? Nico Holkenberg. Good old Nico.

Yeah, he's there. Sam? Baby face, you just don't know, it's Hakey Covellivan. Yep, Hakey's there. Harry? Uh, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-a. What a great name he's got, that was my next guest. Yeah, great, great name.

Sam? He's been mentioned once already. It is the Macaron Chandok. Maharan Chandok is there. Harry? Rubens Barichello. Yeah, Rubino is there. Sam?

Is that Glock? It is Glock. Yes, that's a point. Woohoo. Garik. Goat. Sorry. I don't know. I was going. I mean, I got it from just goat, obviously, because it's so obvious.

but yes. Well, yeah, but I mean, stroll wasn't racing then anyway, so it couldn't have been goat stroll, so there'd have to be goat by the way. Well, he definitely wasn't racing then. Robbed. No.

He would have been on course for about his 10th championship at this point in time, but hey, alternative history. Sam? The other great Japanese driver who was not great at all, but sounds like a motorbike,

Yamamoto. I almost forgot Yamamoto when I was looking up the answers for this quiz. but yes, Yamamoto is there. Harry? All aboard, Siana Trilly. Yes.

The best qualifier of all time gets you ten points. Sam? Dambrosio. Yeah, Jerome Dambrozo is good. Harry? Degrazi. Yeah, Lucas Degrazi is correct. Sam?

Oh, Ricardo. Yeah, Danny Rick. Danny Rick. Harry? The cucumber himself. Good old Noreen. I mean, what a guy. What a guy.

Yeah, Drake Cup games are right. Sam? I've got something in my eye. It's Barichello. I've already said Barakale. I already have Barakello. Oh, I'm allowed one slip up. Yeah, yeah.

That's fine, yeah. All right, I did have someone else in mind. Oh, Perez. Yeah, Sergio Perez. Harry? Oh, Checo. How many have you got left? You do very well.

You've only got nine to go. Bloody hell. Who else was driving? Oh, Gido van de Gard. Of course. Bantagard is there. Bantagard of course, him, sorry, his official title.

Yes. Sam? Paul de Rester. Yeah, Pall de Rester's good. Harry, pressure's back on you. With seven to go. We got another name. I don't know if I do.

I'm trying to think of all the back market teams. H.R.D. had like a that were evolving door. revolving door of drivers um oh god the pressure have we said

covalinen we have said he did the baby face stroke didn't he yeah oh bolts um um um

oh oh ho ho ho ho ho I might have to throw the towel in I can't think of any more that's it I'm done no

all right Harry throws in the towel which means Sam comes away with the victory Sam I mean there's there's a few names left yeah seven to go

can you name any of them Gerrit Vern yeah Charles Pink yep this is a real pun and I was going to save it for my very last one

to make sure that if I got it wrong then I got it wrong at the end Christian Cleet Christian Cleans, good, yeah, he was there. Oh, nice. Obviously, Jules Bianchi.

Jolbianki, three to go. Vouchy Bottas. Two to go. Max Chilton. Max Chilton. I'm struggling. Oh, have we said Gutierrez? Gutierrez is 42 out of 42.

Oh, I got them all. F1. Back up. I mean, that was, that's impressive. I mean, Harry got a lot of the ones actually that I've forgotten. So on my own, no chance. I mean, that was an emphatic sweep-up of the last few names. So congratulations.

Thank you. I think me and Harry make a very good team with this. You're so knowledgeable. Thank God we're doing it about modern F1 because we go back anything past 0304. I'm losing in the second round, mate. That's true. I mean, we haven't done the classic F1.

game of back and forth yet so maybe i'll have to do that at some point oh it's always good fun though i wonder what everyone got who was listening how many did you name out was it 42 yeah i think there were 42 names there wow wow we which i mean just proves in four years of formula one how much of a revolving door those teams like hr t were f1 back and forth it's f one back and and forth we go backwards and then go forth it's F1 back and forth

yeah F1 beautiful and there is absolutely no better way to finish a podcast than on that so Sam get us out of here for this week folks we've had anger we've had comedy and we've had real intellectual debates not

something you get anywhere else in the world of F1 podcast so if you have enjoyed it please subscribe share show it off forever to get down to blockbuster to buy the next video edition. It's coming up very soon, we promise. 50p for a week of rental. In the meantime, I've been Samuel Singh. I've been bad hockey.

And I've been Jean-Christophebaudillon. Same crazy. Remember, everyone, keep breaking late. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.