The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Massa begins legal proceedings against Hamilton's 2008 World Title

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

The boys are back as a three for this week's episode, and they're discussing Felipe Massa's legal action on the 2008 world title. They also chat through Toto Wolff's recent comments on the mindset at Mercedes, and play a classic game of F1 Back and Forth... >>> Don't forget to check out our friends NordVPN on our discounted link here: https://nordvpn.com/lbf1 FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes, historic race reviews & more! JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League: SIGN UP & create your team, and JOIN our league (join code: C3PHEQHPU04) BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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No race coming up this weekend, but of course we're still here with all of the biggest news going on in the F1 world. And first of all, Sam, I think a congratulations is in order for the three of us because now we have gone, I think, like three days without Kirsty being here and we're still somewhat standing. Hey, we're getting podcast live. We've got on video live, Patreon content. It actually exists. We did muck up our power rankings, but we've rectified it. We are functioning adults that can make content.

Well done to the late breaking boys. Kirsty left to go on holiday, on Saturday. And on Sunday, we did our power rankings, and we messed, it didn't record. It was like 24 hours. Hey, I didn't do anything wrong. It didn't record. To be clear, we intentionally messed it up

so we could start this episode with a series, seamless plug to check out our Patreon, which does have the power rankings episode. We are playing 3D chess. Yeah, yeah. Don't mess with us. Our powers of plugging, oh, a match. Speaking of, we haven't got it finalised, but we have just sort of it out. Got a PO box, folks. So we're going to let you know how that works when it's actually official.

We've paid the money, but it's not ready yet. It doesn't work. Thank you to the Royal Mail. shooting on the Sunday's episode where we'll tell you the details we definitely won't because we're recording that in an hour's time

soon the preview for some time I don't know Australia I'm going to be here for oh that it's up to you guys good stuff

we'll tell you before March eggs please come back Kirstie isn't that a Green Day song I think won't be up before Mark Heng's I think we'll tell you

for much, Ed. Come on. Come on. We're only two minutes in and I'm done. Right, what we talk about today? We've got F1 back and forth playing later on. Toto Wolf and his thoughts on the start of Mercedes season, Menardi wanting some talks on what's happening with Kevin Magnuson

and his tactics from the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix. But we're going to start with the news that Felipe Massa has begun legal proceedings against the FIA, Formula One Man and Bernie Ecclestone over the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix. The race was won by the Renault of Fernando Alonzo, as I'm sure many of you know, largely helped by the safety car brought out as a result of a crash by Alonzo's teammate Nelson P.K. Jr. The following season, it came to light that this crash was intentional to help Alonzo win.

However, as the 2008 season was already wrapped up, no action regarding the race or championship occurred. Massa himself scored no points at that race following a botch pit stop that happened under that safety car. A key reason, of course, what he didn't go on to win that year's title. The reason this has come back to the forefront of F1 over 15 years after it happened is a series of comments made by Bernie Ecclestone last year indicating the FIA did know enough about this plot in 2008

to review and take action. Massa and his team have released a statement including the following. Mr. Massa is seeking declarations that the FIA breached its regulations by failing to promptly investigate Nelson Pickett Jr.'s crash and that it had acted properly, Mr. Massa would have won the driver's championship that year. Mr. Massa also seeks damages for the significant financial loss he has suffered due to the FIA's failure.

So obviously we've known about Massa's involvement with this for about a year, again, since Echostone's comments, but this is now Massa has pressed go, essentially, on the legal proceedings. What are your thoughts on this, Sam? Do you think Massa is entitled to any compensation here? It's such a tricky situation, and we'll prefix this, so all three of us are not particularly legal-minded, right? Speak yourself, all right?

Right, okay. Two of us aren't qualified lawyers. Right, yeah, this is tricky. This is really, really difficult. And I think he's got every right to be a bit peeved, to be, you know, have some problems with the situation. The thing that you work all your life for, you commit yourself to so much time and effort and energy and money, whatever, goes into this one thing. And he had one proper crack at being the very best in the world at it.

So you've got every right to think, oh, I'm quite annoyed. That's not gone my way and I'm quite annoyed about it. You know what, folks, before I get into that, I've just got to close Discord because Kershey will crucify me if that goes off again. Harry will crucify you today. Yes, how he'd the editing man. And I won't because I don't care. Oh, I love this regime. Anyway, that says every right to be annoyed.

I think I'd be enoys. He's got every right to have a grouch about it. And I think if you found out years down the line, that someone knew that it was malicious or had wrong intent behind it and had the power to act on it and didn't because reasons, because Bernie Eccleston, don't know. I also go, well, why? Because you took away my dream.

You took away a massive opportunity and a way of stepping up and succeeding. So he's got every right to be annoyed. I don't know how much I agree with the actual lawsuit. The money that he's requested is a gigantic sum and feels very much like a speculation. I'm sure it is an educated speculation, but it's a speculation. You've got no realistic understanding of how much money he would have made seasons over. I know some of it is partly due to a sponsor bonus that he would have. been paid out had he won the title. But not all of it, but some of it definitely is. And that is

fine. If that was just an amount that he would have been owed, fine. And then there of course, many other factors that would have come into play had the decision been made, let's say, straight after Singapore. Firstly, the Ferrari pitstop was still an absolute failure. There's a shock, folks. Ferrari's pitstop being a failure still happened back then. And it was a really botched pit stop. It did not go well for him. Does he recover anyway? You know, the pit stop might have half a dozen normal conditions and it might have been even worse. It might not be a safety car to allow him to have any kind of rectification. Who knows?

If that did go to plan, maybe Lewis Hamilton does something differently later on in the season to secure a different result. You don't know what's going to happen with these kind of results. And it's very pick and choose and kind of, you know, you go back in time, you change one thing and the whole of the future changes in front of you. You don't really know what it might affect. So, yes, he has every right to be annoyed. I'm slightly apprehensive that this is going to open a very, very large can of worms

that I don't know how valid it is, should he get the agreement and the desired outcome that he wants from this? What were your initial thoughts on this news, Harry? Yeah, I'm with Sam. It's such... And again, like Sam's had already,

I understand the grievance that Massa has given this new information that's come to light. As we've touched on this before, though, your source is Bernie Epliston, which... as sources go isn't the strongest, I don't think. But I sympathise and I understand. But like you said, Sam, you're basing this off like if, ifs, if spots and maybes. And anything else could have happened that season after Singapore.

Say he had one Singapore. Something else could have happened after that because it's like you're going back in time and changing the course of history. You've got no idea how it plays out. So I understand as well if there's lost sponsorship money. You know, at least there's something a bit like tangible there. But the rest of the sum, as you say, just seems a bit like they've plucked it out of thin air.

It's such a hard, like, it's not like where there are damages to a reputation or to a person. This is very hypothetical as a case. and as you say Sam it could open a can of worms about other not just an F1 but other sporting results I guess I guess this one is quite specific given that it was found out that there was a deliberate action to change the result of a race or a result of a sporting event in this case

whereas other other I'm not going to mention any but other other races other events you could you could argue it was we don't know whether that was case or not, but yeah, it just seems very, very hypothetical and not a, just got a weak case in my view, but we'll see. We'll see how it goes. I think with the money element of it and how much they're putting, you know, how much he thinks he's entitled to, it's very difficult because I agree they probably have mostly plucked a figure out of thin air. Equally, there's not really another way to go about it in that you just don't know.

And if he feels like he's entitled to something, then you've got to make some sorts of guess. And who's to say, again, it's really difficult. Who's to say from like media opportunities and I don't know whether it would be like commentary opportunities, like the value of being a world champion versus not a world champion? How much does that mean? I haven't got a clue, but I'm the same as everyone else.

I don't think anyone has a clue. but I can understand them putting a figure to it. But like you say, I think they can be far more exact about the sponsorship bonus, but they don't want to discard other things that they might have missed out on. The first thing I did want to say about this point, and to be honest, it's largely stolen from, and this is another amazing plug, folks, this is largely stolen from Harry Ead's point that he made on our 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix historic review. you can listen to now on Patreon.

But Harry made a very good point, which is after the race, Felipe Massa was incredibly gracious towards Lewis Hamilton, incredibly understanding of what had just happened. And I really hope that this lawsuit doesn't take away from that, in that I still believe Felipe Massa is as magnanimous as he was over 15 years ago towards his competitor about the situation from a situation from sporting perspective. I don't think this should take away from that in any way, shape or form.

In terms of whether he's actually entitled to anything here, I think his issue is this is all based on the assumption that the race would be cancelled. And that's the, if that assumption goes, he's got really nothing to his case. And I personally can't quite understand why they would do that. So just to get everyone up to speed on the point situation, Lewis Hamilton beat Felipe Massa by one point at the Brazilian Grand Prix, 98 points to Hamilton, 97 to Massa. If you were to take Singapore out of the equation,

Felipe Massa still is on 97 because he doesn't score points in that Grand Prix. Lewis Hamilton gets a podium in that race. He finishes third. So six points taken away from 98, he gets 92. Massa wins the title by five points. The thing I don't understand is, I feel like the obvious thing to do in this situation, if you found that there was a reason to disqualify the Renault team,

why wouldn't you do just that? Because if you disqualify Fernando Alonzo from this Grand Prix, obviously you could disqualify PK as well, doesn't really make any difference to the points. Lewis Hamilton actually goes up two points to 100 because he claims second rather than third. Amasa still doesn't claim any points. So this whole legal proceeding is very much based on

the race would have to be cancelled for this to have any impact. and just disqualifying the renaos, which I feel like is the more obvious route to go down, wouldn't actually help Massa. It would, in fact, hinder it in a weird way. It would then make the last lap overtake by Hamilton-on-Glock completely meaningless, but that's a point for another day. I mean, just there aren't really many examples of this in F-1 history,

but if you were to look back at, I'm going to go back a fair bit, 1984, Tyrol that year, driven by Martin Brundall and Stefan Belloff, they were naughty. They were very, very naughty because you couldn't refuel back in 1984. They found irregularities with the water. The impurity of the water was an issue. They were essentially refueling the car and disguising it by... We'll just put it water in it, guys.

Don't worry about it. It's just a bit of water. Anyway, point being, that happened for the first eight races of that year. That was half the season back then. Did they just cancel all? first eight races? No, they didn't. They didn't just say, right, round nine,

we're starting from scratch. They disqualified the Tyrells from every single race they were in. So it was brutal for Tyrell, but it wasn't brutal for anyone else. And unless someone can tell me otherwise, I don't know why they wouldn't just do the same thing here.

Another example, of course, is 2007 when McLaren stole secrets for Ferrari, right? And it was found to be such an advantage and illegal that they were disqualified from the championship. So again, would you cancel every single race of that season because they took part in them all? No, you just remove their results because they're the team that are affecting and everyone else just moves up one spot. Again, it feels like the very logical step to make here.

Yeah, and look, I think if it's found out that there was enough to investigate, and Bernie Ecclestone is true to his word, which as we know is 100% always the case, if it is found that there was enough to investigate, in 2008, then yes, Massa has a right to feel aggrieved, but I think the whole sport has a right to feel aggrieved at that point. And who's to say that Massa's the only aggrieved party in this? I mean, surely, I mean, you could argue in that case,

maybe Nico Rosberg is the aggrieved party. He finished second in that Grand Prix. He had to wait another four years before he won a race. You know, his first win came in 2012, the Chinese Grand Prix. who's to say winning a race at that point, what could that have done to his career? You know, would, I mean, his career ended up pretty well anyway, but I don't know. I don't think you can just nail down Flipper Massa as the only person who's aggrieved here. And again, it's all based on the assumption that the race would be cancelled, which I can't quite understand.

Now, of course, a legal proceeding like this, if it were to go ahead, the car of worms that I spoke about and what Harry very much alluded to is the very more recent situation of Abu Dhabi in 2021, of course. I mentioned it. We've mentioned it. In theory, there is going to be some form of legal case that there was an interference on lots of following of the rules that were set out by the FIA at the start of the season. Because we know that they weren't adhered to in the correct manner. Does it allow someone like Lewis Hamilton to turn around the go, I was robbed of a championship,

rules won't follow, I'm going to take you to court? Does that allow multiple instances of this throughout history to become a case? Because it just technically someone from Jedder last year, if it is proven that Beng Suleim interfere with Fernando Alonso's penalty, go, well, I should have had a podium or something like that because we didn't follow the rules like it was tampered with. I'm going to take you to court. Does it open this gigantic door for legal cases to flow through?

Weirdly, in the Abu Dhabi instances, instance, I don't think it does. But maybe in the second one, I think it does. Reason being, this is all based on information that we have now that we didn't have at the time. Whereas I think with Aber Dhabi, as controversial as it was, all of the information was known at the time and nothing has unfolded since then that would point to a, well, this wasn't made aware of and this changed things. I mean, the Ben Suleum instance, yeah, I think in that instance, we didn't know something at the time and maybe we do know something now. But, yeah, I mean, it does certainly open the door for things that weren't known at the time and weren't investigated at the time.

But Dan Bernie Ecclestone saying, actually, yeah, we did know more than we let on. Yeah, I guess the same could be so many examples. You know, like the Ferrari engine at Monza or Belgium, where everyone had a secret word, it was swept under a rug and whatever. Definitely a legal engine. Sorry, yes. I think you're talking nonsense. I don't remember that, actually.

I'm sorry, everyone. It's definitely legal and correct. And they didn't suddenly stop having that ability after that race. Then mind, we'll move on. So how much have we got, how much is going to be given out? Exact number, Harry? to whom you? From me.

You to Filippo Massa. Why am I paying him? I don't know. It's funny, isn't it? Because you're a scrub. Yeah. I, do you know what? I would pay him £100 because that's what I imagine

one month of our Patreon's worth. Mate, let me tell you, it's actually not. You are joking me. No, you get so much content. So much content, right? the first tier which unlocks a lot of this content, only a fiver. And if you want the top tier in pounds, nine quid, $12. Obviously, two cups of coffee a month.

You get loads of content. That's unreal. I can't believe that. And the best part is you help out your three buddies at lay breaking who want to do this full time. I'll say what. I pitched that one up for Sammy, he smashed out of the park. No, you smashed out of the park. I didn't see it coming.

Well done to you. Ben is, for people who are not watching us, Ben is livid. Folks, if we keep up with this average of one Patreon mention every five minutes, assuming this is a 75 minute episode, you are in for 15 mentions of the fact we have the Patreon. I'm so sorry. We'll take our first break. On the other side, we're going to be chatting through Menardi or R.B. Okay, welcome back. The R.B. Formula One team, like we like to call them Menardi, but the official statement, actually says RB weirdly.

The RB Formula One team racing director, Alan Perman, wants to talk to the FIA after accusing Kevin Magnuson of unsportsman-like behavior when passing Yuki Sanoda. Now, of course, we know from the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix this weekend that Kevin Magnuson deployed a tactic that allowed Nika Holkenberg to get a point and frustrated Yuki Sanoda, amongst others, as Kevin Magnuson was driving very slowly with no opportunity to overtake him. clearly the ex alpha towery team not very happy about this sam do they have a right to be or should

they shit up they should shut up quite frankly um firstly they don't seem to have any actual concrete phrasing or point that they're trying to make it's just we didn't like that he went slower than absolutely flat out which is hilarious because so many times throughout any race even when you're not trying to slow people up you don't go flat out you tire saved you fuel save you manage your Grand Prix. And I asked in theory could come out and say, oh, we overtook him

and he was just managing his tyres. That's all it was. It's not our fault that you can get past. Secondly, history shows us that you could do this whenever you want. You could drive much so. Look at when Nico Rosberg beat Lewis Hamilton in 2016.

He was what, five or six seconds, a sector, not a lap, a sector slower. He was driving through sector three like a bus driving through London traffic because, honestly, it was about 20 miles an hour on average, and that's actually generous for London. So there are so many cases.

And no one complained about that either. Louis Hamilton accepted he lost the sight all there and then. The same can also be said, of course, from Sergio Perez defending against Lewis Hamilton at Abu Dhabi and managed to hold him up enough that, of course, we know the results that ending up unfolding. This has happened before. It's happened involving the Red Bull family.

So I think the absolute cheek, the audacity to come out say, no, it's not very sportsman like. Who cares? Is it against the rules? No.

Can you actually police a driver driving around at a not as quick manner? Not really. It wasn't unsafe. He didn't do anything that put anyone

at danger. You know, he wasn't driving erratically. Everyone was fine. I don't see a problem to this. I think you need to button up, shut up and accept that your driver got annoyed

and wasn't good enough to get past him. And Haas beat you. If that's got a big enough insult, then I don't know what is. Right. Well, Sam's firmly on the fence then. Harry, do you think this deserves a review in any way? Nah, shut up, Manabi. Yeah, this is rubbish.

Again, I don't know that I've seen any, but there's no evidence that KMAG was driving erratically or dangerously. He was driving tactically. And like you said, Sam, the example I was going to break up is the one you mentioned already, is to Hamilton, Abbey, Dhabi holding it. I mean, you could have, I could have run quicker than Hamilton, going through that final sector then.

If you've not seen it, folks, 2016 finale, Hamilton's trying to back Rosberg up into Vettel, because if Rosbrook finishes behind Vettel, I think Hamilton and Hamilton wins Hamilton wins a championship. And he was driving through the final sector like a snail. Man's never been so slow. So no one complaining about it then. Yeah, just if he's going that slow, Minarbi,

tell you driver to get past him. Because if he's that slow, then you should be able to get past him, surely. That's how it works. So there's literally no rhyme or reason that this should be investigated. Shut up. Be quicker. Cool.

I think it should be investigated. Good. Yes. We've got some difference of opinion. Oh, no. Lovely. No, to be honest, it's probably less about this incident itself and more about the rules behind it. Because whilst I didn't have any problem whatsoever with the way in which Magnuson drove,

at all. I think that is a perfectly acceptable tactic and quite an exciting tactic. There's a reason that all of the cameras were on the fight for 12th rather than a fight for first, mainly because there was a fight for 12th, but never mind. The reason I think it deserves a review is that in those instances that you've mentioned there, you know, the Rosberg and Hamilton one, the Perez and Hamilton one, the driver hasn't had to pick up a penalty in order to make it happen, whereas here, obviously, the only way Kevin Magnuson is able to pull off that strategy is by getting a penalty. And I think it's one thing having a penalty and then executing the strategy. That's one thing. But actually, the only way to execute the plan is by getting a penalty is another thing entirely.

Now, I think Kevin Magnuson going into that overtake on Yuki Sonoda, I believe he tried his best to make that a legitimate overtake. But with the knowledge that I'm going to send it here and hope for the best, and if it doesn't quite work out in terms of staying on the track, never mind. I've already got 10 seconds. I think perhaps the biggest core issue here is that we don't want drivers picking up penalties intentionally and doing this. That's the thing we have to stop if any other, and Alex Almond said something to this effect where drivers have seen this can work. Therefore, they're more likely to do it. You know, what's stopping a driver cutting across the chican in Monaco, right? You know, you come out the tunnel, go full steam ahead, get past seven drivers and then just hold up the rest of the field

for the rest of Grand Prix. That would definitely work. I would hope in that instance that the penalty would be more severe than just a time penalty, but you never know with the FIA. That's the thing that I would want to ensure doesn't happen. And I think possibly, you know, the biggest core issue is that we've got time penalties. They work to an extent, but also they very rarely actually penalise you for the time that is almost given out. For example, let's say, let's say Nikkah Holkenberg, they were trying to get him back into ninth rather than 10th.

And you gave any of those drivers behind Kevin Magnuson the option. You can either stay behind Kevin Magnuson, or you can take a five second time penalty and go past him. All of them would have taken the latter option because they'd have made that five seconds back. And I'd like to see a way, and I don't know if it's safe or doable, to have those penalties enforced in real time. What I would love is some sort of systems similar to a VSC delta, right, where you are forced to almost slow down to the point where you can't. Like go casting. Yeah, it's almost like a bit of a, you know, like a sim racing sort of penalty, right? Now, I don't know if that would be doable or say, I haven't thought about it at all other than me saying this here right now.

But in theory, I feel like that sort of thing would allow penalties to be served properly. But I do say what you both say in terms of the conduct of driving from Agnison, but no problem with that whatsoever. And anyone who does, I don't understand it. It's just the way he achieved it. you not think that, I see your point entirely, and I think the VSE slash, you know, Sim Racing slowdown makes sense, but would a drive-through that must be executing within three laps for that kind of incident actually could serve the same purpose? Yeah, the only reason I didn't

suggest that because I think in theory that works way better is that if there are penalties you want to give five seconds for, that's a long old time. You've almost at that point, got to give out a severe penalty or no penalty at all, and it's difficult to find the middle ground. Yeah, my argument was more just for this exact incident where someone has taken advantage of going off the track, right? I get what you mean about the more broadest thing. Yes, okay, might need more of a detailed input, but the exact exit that Kevin Magneson cause of cutting the track, staying in front, holding everyone up, rather than a 10 second penalty if he was giving a straight drive-through, all those cars go through and it's fine. Yeah, sure. Yeah, that absolutely works.

It's, yeah, again, I've got no problem with the driving itself. I commended it on the review and rightly so. I think it was great. It's just if he'd been able to make the move on Sonoda without cutting the track. The other thing, I guess, that I think frustrates me with this wanting of a review is that it wasn't exactly impossible to get past Kevin Magnuson, right? It's not like we're driving around Monaco here where there is only one possibility to, overtake here, we're around Jedder, and multiple overtakes were made multiple times.

There's variable DRS zones. And realistically, would you have been too negatively impacted if you did exactly what Kevin Magnuson did to you? I go, you know what then? I'm just going to cut the corner on the next one, go straight past you, drive off into the distance. I think there were solutions that drivers had to their themselves that they could have done that they didn't take into their own hands.

One of the being, just be better and make a good overtake. the cars are there to do so. Alex Albaughan was close enough to make it happen in the end. So why could anyone else? Yeah, it's a very interesting one. I don't know. I mean, it doesn't happen all that often, but I don't know whether we've heard the last of this or not.

No, I do agree. I don't think this should become a regular event until we start seeing at Grand Prix after Grand Prix. Yeah. And in fairness, actually, just to go back to Minas, very quickly. Yuki Sonoda, I haven't got his actual quote written down or anything,

but he was quite reflective of his own performance when he was asked about this, to be fair to him, he was quite not critical of himself, but he said it was on me that I couldn't get it done. And he said something along the lines if I could understand the fight of Magnuson. So I think there's a realisation, at least from Sonoda,

about what happened. Cool. I mean, well done to Snowdo. being a big grown-up, big grown-up boy, and realizing that he wasn't perfect. My little grown-up boy, isn't he? Hey, come on. We're not all six-foot giants over here, okay?

He then dive-bombed him on the cool down. I tried to drive into him. Big grown-up boy. Big grown-up boy, he was a big grown-up car. Ooh. Any closing remarks, Harry, before we wrap this topic up? I was just going to say when you were saying, we probably haven't had the last of this,

And I was like, yeah, no, we definitely haven't, have we? This is going to keep on going, whatever. Not just this incident, but I feel like it'll become a running theme. It's like when F1 teams and drivers get a little idea in their head, they just carry on with it. Fernando Alonso is 100% doing this at some point over the next two races. Yeah, he's probably... He's done it like five times of the last couple years, isn't he?

Chasio Triangle, Japan, round four, is going straight over and down the start, finish, right? He's done that before, though. He did that, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's going to do it intentionally 100% to prove a point. Did it in 22. Do you remember his last, well, last race before he retired the first time? Oh, I was going to say this.

2018 Aibabee, the last five laps, he just kept cutting the corner, just like, nah, what are you going to do? I got a frog was like, yeah, let him have it. I could be wrong. I feel like Magnuson was somehow involved in that as well. Probably. Also, Russia. He loves to stop doing turn two at Russia as well, just straight over that one.

Oh, well. Who'd have thought, hey, has only had to do the thing that they know best in order to succeed. go slow. Use your advantage, finally. Fair play. Right, we'll take our second break on the other side. We've got a bit of Mercedes chat.

It'll be really slow. Savage. Okay, welcome back. A bit on Toto Wolf and Mercedes now. So great starts the year for Mercedes. They are challenging, oh, no, never mind. Never mind.

Toto Wolf. Toto Wolf is fairly powerful. positive. He had this to say on the first couple of races of the season. I've changed my mindset. I don't think that additional pressure on all of us makes it better. I think we have a problem with the physics. It's not by lack of trying or by the mindset or the motivation. All of that is there and I can see the buzz in the organisation. Wolf says that while on track performance seems similar to previous seasons, the situation with its car is very different because its understanding of the concept has moved on so much.

We had so many unknowns in the last year, he said, where we started, we said, okay, this could be the reason and this could be the reason and this could be the reason, but we fixed that. So despite not a great start of the year, no podiums, obviously, Sam, but it seems to be in good spirits at the moment. What did you think about that? Yeah, I don't know why, Toto. I don't think Toto understands emotion, because when he's winning, he's the most miserable man in the world.

and when he's losing, he's weirdly happy and optimistic. Toto, be more relevant to the scenario that you're facing. You released an apology letter this time last year when things weren't going very well. And I would argue that it's going worse this year if you look at your points tally so far. So, yeah, quite funny, quite interesting. He's come out and said a lot of things about the car.

One of those being that, you know, they didn't get the testing data accurately interpreted onto the car and that the simulator wasn't providing accurate data, And what do you think about that? That is ridiculous because I think if I was doing my day job and I spent two years interpreting my job wrong, I'd be fired immediately. It would be like, what are you doing? You get paid a lot of money to do this. Why can't you read the numbers that you're qualified to read?

Nick Schumack has been sent to the shadow realm. Sorry, mate, Mr. Ketesting driver. But if you were actually giving any relay of feeling, numbers. You've done that wrong. Yeah, but maybe he was, he was doing everything right, but what they were telling him to do

was the completely wrong thing. He's like, all those late nights, Mick's like, I swear to God. Did you see during the Jeddah GP, the McLaren drove off into the distance in sector one, Manor Norris in front of Lewis Town.

He was like, to Mick Schumacher, and he's just literally shaking his Emma. He's like, oh God, I'm back in the Sim tomorrow, aren't I? in you go again, Mick. And we're not going to do any analytics.

It's pure torture. Anyway, so this is fascinating to me, that they've had two years of development where they've had these new, you know, regulations have come out. And Mercedes of all teams, who are engineering giants of the world. They are really good at making cars, right?

It is something that they have done quite well if you haven't noticed on your roads. They make cars brilliantly. So the fact that they've struggled to interpret basic data for so long is absolutely baffled. Equally, if I was Toto Wolf, I don't know why he's walking around acting like a kid on Christmas, having a great time clicking his heels as he walks down the road.

Be annoyed. Put this into action. Make changes and go, right, we know the problem now. We've realised that some Muppet back at the factory is reading the data wrong. They're gone. We can't read the data correctly now. And we're going to come back with a whole new concept. And it makes sense.

That's to me like a light bulb. I go, oh, good. We know what we're doing now. Thank goodness for that. But yeah, okay, this Toto Wolf. For some reason, his PR is very, very strange. But I like to think that they've actually cracked it and we might start seeing some progress now.

So I guess that is something to be happy about. What did you make of Toto Wolf's, I don't know, confidence, if you can call it that, Harry? I think his new mindset is that they're going to be doing an apology email rather than a letter. Ooh. Save the planet. Save the trees.

Send it to Michael Massey first. Oh, oh. Oh, God. There are the days, weren't they? Michael, I sent you an email. I'm running a race, Toto. Big Jonathan Wheely. Yeah, look, this, it's an odd one.

In a way, I don't necessarily disagree because, yeah, they've spent the last few years it's been frustrating. Being frustrated about it, they've got the talent in the team. Being frustrated about it isn't going to necessarily make things better. But you're right, Sam,

in that it's a bit of a... He was so not optimistic all the time when they're winning, and now he's like, oh well, he's not saying oh well, but it's just, it's a different... I'm having a great time. Thank you, Papua.

Papua to there, or Arnold Schwarzenegger. I've got the Papua gickle and I've got the data. Stop losing the Pumbernickel on the data, please. Stop dropping my crumbs on the day, Nick, stop dropping Pump and nickel in the sim The seat is full of your crumbs

Mick Oh no, I'm sorry Popper Mickle Oh man That's the next photo show Better done Yes If you haven't already seen Esteban Wozowski,

the sound concocting of the day. I'm so sorry. Welcome. Good Lord. Pammer Michael. I've taken so long to get there. Anyway. No, I've no idea what I was saying.

Yeah, look, it's, it's, it's, it's, do you know, I would like to preface this by saying, I'm not blaming him. But you know, there was quite a big deal and around Lewis Hamilton saying that they didn't follow my dog. direction for the car. And the feeling is, it's in drive to survive. There's a bit of a, it's a very staged scene.

There's a bit of a scene between Toto Orp and, uh, Darius Hamilton where Toto's like, yeah, yeah, maybe you were right, we'll, we'll change things. Is this what they changed it to? Because, because that would be bad. That's not, that's not, I get on pranked Hamilton at the cost of their entire success. Toto's like, I told you so. We were right the whole time. Mike Elliott's there laughing in the corner.

Freddie Vass how we did the camera Yeah, it's an interesting one They've obviously made a conscious change of direction but now they're saying it's not good

It's just kind of a carry-on of what's happened over the past few years where Mercedes just don't really know what the problem is that like we have this problem don't really know why don't know how to fix it

which is it's intriguing to say the least It's frustrating because I think we know what Mercedes can do if they get a good car. We know what Hamilton can do. We know what George Russell can do. But yeah, it's just bizarre that they keep getting sort of confused by their own car that they made.

The irony being that, I mean, we're only two races in, but this is the worst start they've had out of all three, you know, ground effects regulations in terms of points, I think. And so we could be facing the opportunity, like the reality where 2022 is their best, one of their best, like, ground effect years, which is mad. Again, we're early doors. Things will change, I'm sure. But so far, it's looking like the most positive out of all of them, which is,

yeah, you think things will change. One year three, nothing's changed. Nothing's changed. So, yeah, it's a, anyway, I get where he's coming from with that mindset, shouting at people's not going to make it better. you know, it's not like they're working hard, not working hard of this, but just a strange one to come out and say. To your point on them not doing very well this season. 2023, Bahrain Grand Prix, they finished fifth and seventh. Louis Hamilton was fifth, George Russell was seventh,

and Lewis Hamilton in fifth was 50 seconds away from Max Verstappen. And as we all know, what was the result of that? an apology letter. This year, where did they finish in the Bahrain Grand Prix? Fifth and seventh. Oh my gosh. And George Russell, and this occasion was ahead of Lewis Hamilton, but it was exactly the same finishing positions.

George Russell, the lead Mercedes in 5th, was 46 seconds away from Lewis Hamilton. Nothing. In a year, they've achieved the same result of Bahrain, and the only difference is Russell was four seconds closer than Hamilton was 12 months ago. I don't know. I feel like that should...

That should speak volumes. Yeah, four seconds over 50-odd lapse. It's not very good. No. For me, this is a team that... That knows it can't fight. It knows it can't fight. I'm not saying they're giving up.

That's definitely not what I'm saying. But I do think they will improve as the year goes on, but they don't need... to improve to catch up to Red Bull. They need a new car. They could improve 25% on where they are at the moment. They're still going to be nowhere near Red Bull. And I think this is just two things,

and only two things, will see this turnaround for Mercedes. Number one, the 2026 regulations coming in. And number two, Red Bull imploding. And I don't see a way in which they get back to the top without, well, maybe both of those happening, but at least one of those happening. Ultimately, I think they've just lost too many people to their rivals to Red Bull. I mean, such a big deal was made of it at the time when there was this mass exodus from Mercedes

to Red Bull, when Red Bull wanted to do their own power trains and the like, I think they lost too many people. And with this current regulations or current rule set, like, they just got, I think they got too much wrong, too early. And whilst they've been trying to, I don't know, make up for lost time, I think they've also been a bit too stubborn at times. I think they stuck to, I know Red Bull are making it work now, but they stuck to a design that they couldn't execute. And they were stubborn with it, and it didn't pay off. So I can understand Toto Wolfe's approach here in that him getting angry and shouty about it, he tried it last year and it didn't work. And I don't think it'll

work here. I just think at the moment they have almost, I don't want to say they've forgotten Red Bull, but it feels like they are just focused on themselves, just like how can we improve ourselves to be our best version? And we'll see what that does in terms of against the rest of the field. Because I feel like realistically, they know deep down Red Bull are not catchable this year. I don't know if they're going to be catchable next year. And in that case, you're just setting up for 2026. It's a sad state of affairs if that is the case. But yeah, I can kind of understand why Toto Wolf is being the way that he is. I feel like another reason they've slipped so far behind is just due to the cost cap. I just don't think that, I think they need

the extra budget to continue funding things, development change. And I don't think they've got the resource to do what they were able to do in the previous generation of cars now anymore. Oh, what do you mean? They got loads of extra wind tunnel time versus Red Bull because of that devastating penalty Red Bull got. Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, they're really punished for that. And of course, we can see the difference on track now. Yep. What if they had the tunnel time? Good Lord. Oh no. They've not going to that short process. They've already finished the Belgian Grand Prix by the of this recording. Oh dear.

I mean, speaking of the current state of F1, moving on to a couple of team bosses. So James Vowles, Mike Crack, saying that overtaking, hey, is becoming harder, but they also believe that F1 rules have not failed. What do you think to that, Sam? It's a really tricky situation to be in, because I think,

I think if we had a tight battle for first place in all three of the seasons we've now had, obviously we're halfway through our third ground effect season, I don't think this will be coming up as a scenario because I was happily watch a 20 race season where there was never a pass for the lead. But if every single race ended, we kind of 0.1, 4.2 of a second between the two leaders, and you know at any moment a pass could happen. And the only reason it doesn't happen is because of great driving. I'd be thrilled, right?

I know a lot of people might listen to that and go, God, that sounds like hell. And I can understand why, but when it's down to skill, I think it's exciting. Equally, I would hate to watch a full season of 20 races where, you know, DRS is so powerful or following is so easy

that a pass for the league was made at a snap of a finger and we never even got any excitement up front and someone went past and they're off down the road within 15, 20 seconds. So it's a very difficult balance to strike up to have the perfect ability to fight. hollow where overtaking is on the edge, but possible. It really is difficult.

I do think that Formula One, and Martin Brundo alluded to this on commentary, it's probably the, it did this in Bahrain. And this is probably the most explicit I've ever heard it said on a comms team, that when Formula One moved to a hybrid model, it essentially was the worst decision that Formula One has ever made when it comes to developing cars, because the cars are big, they're heavy, cumbersome, they're too long. And I do think that the sport,

as a whole would be much more enjoyable, it would be more unpredictable, we have more overtakes, we could have close of fighting, there'd be a lot more you could do on the track if the cars went back to sizes similar to what we had in kind of the late 90s, early 2000s, which if you could, there's plenty of photos around, there's one from the start of this season where Red Bull got got David Kortar to drive the original Red Bull car and then Max Osterap and drove the latest 2024 car. And the size comparison is ridiculous. And I do think that it's changes like that that could lead to a far more competitive on-track nature, which should be more thrilling for the general spectator.

Yes, an interesting one. I tend to think that, you know, the last couple of years have not been great from a competition standpoint out front, but actually, if we're looking at the sport as a whole, I think it is better than what it was in the 2000s. I think if you go back and watch the average race from any. point really in the 2000s. I mean, you want to talk about lack of overtaking. You'll see it right there unless you talk, you know, overtakes in the pits due to fuel stops. But, you know, I still do think that, you know, the 2021 season, of course, will be remembered forever due to its controversy,

but equally the racing was brilliant. And the same as we often say can be said about 2020. Now, these last couple of years haven't been as good, but the thing that connects them both is that still do contain the hybrid. I'm not saying hybrid is the future, but I don't necessarily think it's the worst thing that's happened to the sport. In terms of like the original quote or the original question, I think I agree exactly with what you say, Sam, in that, you know, the overtaking or the number of overtakes does not make or break

a grombray because I think we've had two races so far this year. And I'm not going to say Saudi Arabia was a belter because it definitely wasn't. but for me it was a better race than what we had in Bahrain, just personal perspective. Though, you know, it's far easy to make overtakes of Bahrain, right? The whole point that Saudi Arabia was more entertaining was because it was tricky for some drivers to get past. The Hamilton Piastri battle, if that was in Bahrain,

would have been over in a lap, probably. So, yeah, I think, I mean, Bahrain, if you think of what happened, Perez needed to get back to second. Carlos Seines had the pace to get to third. Fernando Alonzo had no better than ninth place pace overall. But they just resolve themselves so quickly to the point where there's not a lot to decide with like half the race gone. It's like you can get the overtakes done so easily that every driver's in their pace position.

And then it's kind of just, well, that's it. We've still got some maps to go. But that's most of the drama done, which I don't think is optimal for, for a one. So dirty air for me is the bigger issue than the overtaking. And I think, as you say, Sam, that big old beasts that F1 cars are. I think that that is also something that should be reviewed.

What do you think, Harry? Yeah, I think I've thought we said this before, and I'm a massive believer that these cars are just too damn big. Too damn big, too damn heavy. but in terms of in terms of these this rule set I don't think they are a failure at all

unless you Ben because I think people are looking at it from the championship battle they go well these rule changes suck because we don't have a championship battle that's not it's literally not why we don't have a championship battle is because Rebel are doing a better job at these rules than anyone else and that's not the rules fault it's

and the nine other teams on the grid that aren't as good as red board at the moment. So I don't think you can blame that. And are you right? In terms of actually where the state of the sport, it's, it's, again, I think I like the, you know, naughty's, even early tens cars were way lighter and smaller.

I would definitely go back to that kind of car. But actually, the way Formula one was was not even a patch on it now. people would be so bored if they went to go and watch a normal mid-naughties race. Like they were, some of them were absolute snooze vests. So we were in a way better spot, way better position. There's definitely things I would change, as already mentioned. And it's never going to be perfect. But yeah, I don't think you can say this is a failure.

It's just, I think it's just unfortunate that the, because I think if you go back to the beginning of 2022, even the first half, I think people forget. It was actually, we had no Rebel one really on song, and Ferrari were there. We're having a nice little battle.

And to go with that, we had some pretty good racing, you know, to accompany it, which since, you know, the second half of 2022 and the rest of 23,

obviously at the beginning of this season, I think people forgotten slightly. So, yeah, I don't think they're a failure. There's definitely things that change, though. That's fair enough.

Okay, we'll take our final break of this. episode on the other side, a bit of back and forth. Just delightful. Woohoo. A bit. Everyone, welcome back.

You know what time it is. It's time for F1, back and forth. Smashed it in 1. F1. Back and forth, it's F1. Back and forth, it goes backwards. Then goes forth. It's F1.

Back and forth. F1. Apologies to those who know the rules off the back of their hand. But as always, we always want to be accommodating for anyone new to the show. F1 back and forth. It's a quiz where Sam goes up against Harry. And there are a number of correct answers to a question.

They keep going back and forth until they can't think of an answer or they give a wrong answer. And I'm going to give you two strikes today. Oh, no, it's going to be a hard one. Two strikes before you're out. there are 21 correct answers to this question, which is, I want you to name any driver that has had at least 11 wins with the same constructor. Have you specified constructor for a reason? Team constructor.

I don't think there's any little trip you up in it. Not many people have had 11 wins for Alpha Tauri. That's fair. Yeah, that's fair. And yes, you'll get two strikes before your third wrong answer means you're out and you lose. So, Harry, kick us off. Michael Schumacher. Michael Schumacher is a correct answer.

Should also specify there are a few names on this list that are technically right answers more than once. Michael Schumacher being one of those. I'm not going to ask you to name him again. So Schumacher is on the list. Michael Schumacher. Good effort. Schumacher is there with 72 wins for Ferrari. which puts him second, but also 19 for Benetton.

We'll put him on this list as well. Sam. Lewis Hamilton. Lewis Hamilton, another one that appears twice on the list. 82 for Mercedes leads the list, but then 21 for McLaren, also legitimate. Harry. Max Verstappen. Max for Stappen.

He's third on the list, 56 for Red Bull. Sam. Sebastian Vettel. Sebastian Vettel. another name that appears on here twice 38 wins for Red Bull and then 14 for Ferrari Harry

Hmm Meika Hakenan Mika Hakenan is a correct answer 20 wins for McLaren I'm going to assume that this is across all time and we don't have a date cap no date cap great Niko Rosberg

Nico Rosberg is a correct answer 23 race wins for Mercedes Harry Erton Senner Erton Senna 35 for McLaren That is correct Sam

Valtry Bottas And that is your first strike What scrub! Get good, mate Is he if you had 11 wins Yeah 11 wins You've managed to pick one of the three answers that have had ten. As if he's only got ten wins.

Oh, Valtrey. Come on, mate. Very unlucky. So, back to you, Harry. Michael Schumacher's biggest rival, David Coulthard? Correct. David Coulthard is a correct answer. Just about sneaks in there with 12 for MacGaron.

Alan Prost. Alan Prost is a correct answer. 30 wins for MacGald. Claren. Back to you, Harry. Nigel Mansell. Nigel Mansell is the next one on the list. 28 for Williams. Jim Clark.

He's a correct. I was just looking for him in the list. He's definitely a correct answer. I was going to say so. He's easy to me. 25 wins for Lotus. Lovely. Harry. Jackie Stewart. Jackie Stewart is a correct answer. 15 wins for Tyrell.

Fernando Alonso. Fernando Alonzo, the last name on here that appears twice because he has 17 wins for Renault and then exactly 11 for Ferrari. Harry. Oh, baby. I'll go for the racist man, Nelson Pek. Nelson Pek is a correct answer. 13 wins for Brabham.

I'm going to take a hit on this one. I think I have to get out of the way. Let's not get out of my mind. to put it, Kimmy Reichenen. So I wasn't sure about Kimmy? Yeah, that's why either of mine. It's not a correct answer. As you know, I'm very sad,

and I like to essentially come up with a category and almost play along. This was the very answer that got me stuck because he won 10 times for Ferrari and nine times for McLaren. Jimmy! God's sake. Yeah, it is the nearest of nearest misses on this game.

Back to you, Harry. Graham, Hill. And you've managed to find the third and final name. It's had 10 wins for a team for BRM, which means Harry now has one strike. Nicolauda. Nicolauda is correct.

Answer 15 for Ferrari. Fangio. Damn it. Had a lot of race wins. No way. For a lot of different teams, Oh, no. Yeah, he raced for five different teams.

Yeah. He was just everywhere, I'm afraid. Which means it's two strikes all. And we have one, two, three, four, five, six names left on this list. Sam. I'll go for one of the OGs. Scari. Scari is a correct answer.

Obviously, fewer wins than Fangio, but crucially, a lot with Ferrari. so 13 overall. Harry. Graham's son, Dill. Yeah. The last name in the 20s here, 21 wins for Williams.

Which gives you... Good Lord. Yeah. Don't Damon. Give you four names left and they are, funnily enough, the four names that have exactly 11. Oh, crikey.

I'm going out on this one. I think I'm going going out Can I Harry, I'll ask if you It's okay to ask this Are any left from 2000s to present?

You can ask that But Ben's not allowed to answer Yeah, two of them have raced in the 2000s and onwards Right So the person that I was going to take a punt on Is not one of those people

And I've actually forgotten who What's going to happen Um, Jilvilnev. You get a race in the 2000s? No, I know, that's my point. It wasn't one of those.

Jillvilnev is not a correct answer. I'm afraid. Take the L. I'll tell you who is an answer, though. Oh. Go a bit down, further down the family tree. Oh, go.

His grandson. John? No. John Villenev. Yeah, the four answers that, were on exactly 11. One of them was Jacques Villeneuve. The other one from the 2000s was Felipe Massa.

Damn it. I was so undeciding on Felipe. And Alan Jones had 11 for Williams and Mario Andretti had 11 for Lotus. Okay, Massa was the only one I had in my mind. So that's just frustrating. And you hit all of the near misses that I wrote down for the ones that are on 10.

So, well done. Isn't that funny? Well, well done, Harry. Good job. close run thing. So much. Now, I do have something to say on this. I go out at Skag all right there.

Go on then. I have a lot of fun doing these back and forth segments. I would call it one of the best segments on this podcast. But you know what? I wouldn't call it. I wouldn't call it the greatest segment in all of Formula One podcasting. It's time for the... Hell be question of the week.

Jazz rendition. Yeah. Do you want to say weak? Yeah. All right then. You're just say it in a minute anyway, won't you? It's absolutely make you fume. You know I hate dead air too much.

Oh, the worst joke. That's the best segment with the worst joke. It is. It might be the worst joke in podcast. Oh, dear. All right. Question of the week. So we ask the people on Instagram and Twitter, as we always do, on a Monday.

And this week's question was after what HASS were able to conjure up in terms of a strategy at the weekend. What are they going to surprise us with next? Sam. Yeah, there's so many good answers. My favorite part of this is that I knew. I knew you were going to say this. I knew it. You and child.

I know that you saw it as well. I'm actually just going to comment now. But in common here. Without explanation, said, Car 27 of Haas comes in in third place, but in a Scooby-Doo like twist upon removing his helmet, the paddock is aghast to learn

that it is not Nico Holkenberg finally getting his first pogging, but rather a greasy, dishevelled and chunky Jean Haas. Which I thought was, a great story. Chunky Jean Haas. But the chunky French baker. Not again, no.

Did that happen on Patreon? No, that was on here. That was the last question of the week. Another one was from Michael here on Instagram, Michael's syrup, great surname. Kamatsu taps into Red Bull Communications and starts singing, Copa Cabana. Max and Checo can't resist swaying

with the music and both hit the barriers. The race is red flag. At the restart, babies crawl onto the track. Everyone stops except KMAG, who gets nine, ten second penalties from running over the babies, but clearing the way for Holkenberg to claim his ponyms. Great.

We managed to move on to murder. Oh, you guys might be fagging at us by quite a long way. Barry Killeran has said Postman Fat and Gene become friends. So he is hardcore, he is of course hired and they go on to win the 2026

championship. He's really delivered. Oh, no. Oh, that's so good. Gee Kitchen has, of course, just said Barry Manor, though. My favourite joke. That we didn't do. Oh, dear. Shall I, I'll run through some of the ones that I liked.

17th and the DNF from J.D. Dunkley. Taking inspiration from McLaren. What else have we got? Nate going with K-Magulling. up Max Verstappen from getting to the line quick enough in qualifying and Holcomberg gets pole position. We've got, Gary's a good answer from row lock out of Monaco and drive around side by side really slowly during the Grand Prix and no one can overtake. Moggy went with deploy the same strategy, but forget they're in 19th and 20. And lastly, one that really got me on Twitter was from The Puff, which the name itself was pretty good enough.

The actual submission was, They will gain kick as a new sponsor next year and become Kick Huss. They're going to kick some Huss. Come on. So don't believe this. Surely there's been some copying going on in the comics. If this is completely original

and you also happen to come up with this story, I'm blowing away. I'm not sure who would have done what, but Andrew, you have said, Gene Hasse shows up in Melbourne and takes off his mask like a Scooby-Doo villain to reveal that he has been Barry Mangolo, all along and complains that if it wasn't for that Megalink Shiner,

Haas F-Fung, we've got big champions by now. Sorry, two Scooby-Dew references in one comic section. No, I can't know that. No, it's our podcast, I can believe anything like that. Any niche cartoon references, it's going to happen. I don't like Scooby-Doo. Okay. I started into that, to be honest.

Why don't you like it? I just, look, it was on telly as a kid when it was really like when I was growing up. So it wasn't ever my vibe. I like the film, the live action one that they did on the Wasette Island. I thought that was good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. But that's it. That's my only real Scooby-Doo affinity. I'll tell you what, that is an excellent way to win the podcast. It's got Sarah Michelle Geller in it, who I am a big fan of. Cheers, right. Sam, if you wouldn't mind getting us out of it now.

Folks, what a show it's been today. You can, of course, watch a log of it on YouTube, late breaking F1. The same as across all of our social channels, late breaking F1. Follow us, please. It's helping us to grow. We are getting more opportunities

and growing as a show, which we love. Thank you so much for all the support so far. Patreon has been mentioning enough times. It's in the description. You know what kind of content you get with it. And we'll be doing birthday shout-ups for March very, very soon. So that is a perk that you get for the top tier. Discord is also available.

So if you are going to be featuring on the show, doing a submission for a race preview or review, which we do around every single Grand Prix, then you need to be in Discord and you will be asked around those episodes. So, you know, keep a listening out, and you could hear your own voice on the show. And that's about everything for now.

Make sure you come back Sunday. And if you want us a little bit more in between, patrons there. In the meantime, I've been Samuel Sage. I've been Ben Hawking and I've been Pumpa Mikkel. I knew it. I remember, keep breaking. Crumbs in the simulator.

Get your crumbs out of my simulator make. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.