The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Ranking the 2025 F1 Rookies: Who’s the Standout Star?

Episode Date: November 2, 2025

The LB trio go all-in on the Class of 2025 rookies, ranking every newcomer from worst to best and debating who’s really turning heads on the F1 grid. They also unpack Red Bull’s ongoing lineup silence, the latest in the Crashgate saga as it hits the courts, and wrap up with some F1: Order Please… FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ SUPPORT our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for bonus episodes JOIN our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ community JOIN our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F1 Fantasy League⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. Welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Harry Ead, Sam Sage, and me, Ben Hocking. We're here on a Sunday. There's no F1 this Sunday, but there's still plenty of fun F1 chat to be had, Sam. And if that doesn't actually end up being the case, don't sue us. Yeah, there's no refunds available, I'm afraid.

first of because this is a free service so take it out with your podcast provider that was sorry that was a momentary reference to healthcare provider from the office there yeah we're back it's a Sunday I am hungover we have a great old time Harry Ede are you hungover or are you

not is the big question oh the question everyone's waiting to hear not hungover but I certainly had beers last night so make of that what you will I think you could have a t-shirt on that says, I certainly had beers last night, and you can wear it any day in the week, sir.

It would be true. Harry, you are going to absolutely rock the ironic, like, 50-year-old dad t-shirt, I can tell already. Well, wait. Yeah, we've got one hungover, one had beers, but not hungover, and one who's, I'm hungover on life, you know. Oh, wow. You're dressed like an ice cream.

Hey, we're not getting into dick names, all right. That's not a good idea. Instead, we're going to get into a really fun F1 podcast, which includes F1 order, please, a little bit on Crashgate, which is in court at the moment. Red Bull, not picking their second driver just yet, but we are going to start with a little bit of a rating between the rookie drivers.

Now, I appreciate there's a bit of debate as to who is a rookie driver. driver this season. We're going with the six of Colopinto, Lawson, Antonelli, Bayerman, Adjar, and Bortoletto. I didn't repeat any of those names, right? You also don't put a H on Hager either. Well, that's correct. You're not supposed to. You're not supposed to. That's true. You sound like cock and geese, though. We've got a Frenchman. Well, that's true. But those are the six drivers that we're going to be ranking from worst to best. And we'll see if there's going to be agreement across our list or indeed if we have a little bit of disagreement here and there. So, Sam, if you'll kick us off, who is number six on your list of rookies? Franco Colopinto. Sorry, South America. Realistically,

he hasn't proven himself in the same way that he did when he came into Williams. And I do think that it's only the last few races, maybe three, where I've actually seen genuine pace start to emerge where he's on the same level as Gasly. And that still hit and miss. You know, the qualifying has been there but not there. The record shows that it's starting to draw a level, but not to the point that I was expecting with the other rookies. And it is close to me at this back end with a couple of the rookies here. But Colopinto just hasn't.

And more maybe through opportunity with Alpine is unable to really showcase true pace. But right now I'm not seeing that pure electrifying. Ah, you know, he's got got that special thing that F1 drivers had that we were seeing in the Williams. He was crashing a lot, but he was quick. Whereas in the Alping, he's still finding. that balance. And the fact that we had to take him out of Silverstone, he was just risk factor, the fact that he was so regularly right at the back of the race party by multiple seconds in comparison to his teammate who was scoring points, much more experience, of course. But at that time,

was he doing more than Dewin, who were being in the car for a couple of races? I don't think so. So Colopinto got a lot of talent, but I don't think he's executing it as well as I expect to him to do so. So right now, he is last in my rankings. It should also just state here as well that just because someone is number six now. We're not necessarily predicting the future. It's not the case that someone who's six won't end up being one of the top few in a couple of years. But at least where they're at now, Sam has Collipinto number six. Harry, who have you got at number six?

I also have Franka Colopinto. And I do feel a little bit harsh about this, but being in the Alpine just, means he's bottom of the list, basically. It's so hard to tell what he's able to do. But, yeah, as Sam said, it's not been the electrifying debut that we saw from him last year in the Williams. He certainly seemed to have struggled more. But again, I'd like to caveat. I think that's a lot of that's down to the fact that the car is terrible.

When Pierre Gasly is struggling as much as he is in that car, I think it's clearly that Colopinto is, he's in good company there. So yeah, it's just kind of the fact that he's in that team, in that car, that it's his bottom of the list. So I feel harsh, but he's down at number six for me. And full agreement on number six, I have Colopinto as well. But my first two words, Harry were feels harsh in my notes, because he hasn't had the chances of the other drivers.

He stacked up well against Gasly after what was quite a tough start. He's four all in qualifying over the last eight races. And we saw both Cota and Mexico, the two Alpine drivers, despite the fact that they were a long way away from points, they finished next to each other. So Colopinto has improved as the season's gone on. He doesn't lack in self-confidence. He's got a lot of bravado, you could say, on track. And you need a little bit of that in F1. But I couldn't justify putting him ahead of any of the rest of them, though. Gassley still was able to pull out a few results earlier in the season. He's had four Q3 appearances versus Colopinto in that same car. And he was able to score good points at both at Silverstone. He was able to get into points at

SPAR as well. So there is also the factor too that Gazzley has, it has been mentioned a couple of times recently that he seems to be experimenting a little bit with set up, just trying to figure out something on this car to give it a little bit more performance for the rest of this year, maybe thinking about next year as well. So Colopinto was number six for me. But as I started out by saying, it does feel a bit harsh. Sam, number five. Liam Lawson sits at number five for me. And he has had enough time now to, I think, be fairly compared and fairly angelaide. So he is probably the longest serving rookie, as we're all aware. He's been around a while. We're probably being a little bit kind to actually putting him in this bracket. But why I've got Lawson further down the parlor is actually not,

unlike Colin Pinto, where we all agree, it's probably a little bit difficult to evaluate just how quick he can be due to the car. Lawson is in a car that has regularly appearing at the points, is regularly able to qualify in Q3, and his teammate is more often than not executing that, whereas Lawson has gone off to a very tricky start. You might fairly say, well, the youngest confidence got by being dropped after only two races,

he had to recover to that. Yep, if that's your argument, I'm happy to listen to it. That's fair enough. But in the first 10 races, he scores one points finish, I think, in a P8 that he picked up in Monaco when they were doing the back and forth swapping that they picked up with the teams. But then in the last 10 races that he's had, I think he's had four or five points finishes. So it shows that his season is developing, it is oncoming. But it's the racecraft and the consistency for me, which is what Liam Norses being let down by. He so all too often find himself having scrappy, messy battles in 13, 40, 15, that part of the racetrack, where if he plays the game more sensibly,

if he evaluates his race further, if he builds into the race, points are probably on the cars, because where he is on it, his race pace is very good. I actually very comparable to Isaac Hager, but more often than not, that falters. And it's usually caused by himself more than others. So for me, right now, in a very tightly packed rookie rankings, Liam Norsal finds himself down in fifth.

It does get very close at this point. And I could, I don't know, I could see someone having a very different ranking to me and still being like, okay, that's fair enough because all of these rookie drivers have impressed at various points this year. We do have our first difference in the rankings because at number five, I have Kimmy Antonelli.

You could argue he's number one on potential. You could very easily make that claim, but right now I don't think he's quite there. If we look at his record against George Russell, it kind of speaks for itself. He's 258 to 97 down. on Russell to this point. Mexico was the first attempt this season where Antonelli has beaten Russell.

That's 20 races we've had to this point. And he's 18-2 down in qualifying. It's a very comprehensive loss at this point in the season. He started the season okay when Mercedes maybe had the second best or tied for second-best car. But as soon as it dropped a bit, Kimmy Antonelli started to struggle. He had that really costly error, of course, in Monaco, qualifying, if you remember, where Monaco qualifying, that is the one qualifying session of the year. You don't want to mess it up because it is really tricky to recover. He couldn't in the

main race. And Austria, we remember that one as well, where he had that incident with Max Verstappen on lap one, Belgium and the Netherlands, a bit of a struggle too. I know a lot of people have come forward with conspiracy theories of Kimmy Antellelli just hates Europe. Like he could do every race isn't in Europe. There have been some good results in there. Don't get me wrong, like more recently, Baku P4, Singapore, P5. But I think this was always likely to be the case.

There was going to be some risk attached to picking up a driver who only had three complete junior formula seasons before going into F1. Just to compare that to a couple of other drivers, like Russell, Norris and Piastri, for example, all three of those, you wouldn't say they hung around a lot in junior formula, but they had five seasons before they made it to F1. Antonelli is working on two fewer seasons than that. So I think this was always kind of inevitable.

A slight difference in opinion there. Sam has Lawson at five. I have Antonelli at five. Harry, you were going to add a new name into the mix or agree with one of us? I'm going to agree with Sam. So far, me and Sam are just the same person on this, but as always, as always, going for Liam Lawson as well. Look, I know he was so harshly done by at the start of the season, but I can't not look past how bad it was at Red Bull. And I'm not saying he deserved to lose his sea after just two races, but it was poor.

So that in itself, I think, lowers him down the list quite a lot. It's, with these lists, it's tough as well, because you didn't want to let recency by us come into effect. But he's definitely been, as he said, Sam, It's definitely getting better as of late. But I just think overall it's not been consistent enough over a season. I think especially as well considering, you know, when he came in 2023, when he was replaced in Daniel Ricardo,

who was quite an exciting talent. I think that pace is still there. But overall, it's not been a great season, especially versus his more rookie teammate, which is a weird thing to say. But yes, even more of a rookie year. with Hatchart. So, yeah, number five is Liam Lawson for me. I'm going to go first when it comes to number four, and you can probably guess the reason why.

It's Liam Lawson. And I'm not going to repeat your points, but I agree with what you said. Tough starts the year. For context, five of his first eight races for racing balls, I scored either a three or a four in our weekly power rankings. So if you're not already on Patreon, please make sure you check out the link in the description. Power rankings, all of the episodes from this year are there to be listened to. But last 10 races, you're right, have been far better than the first 10. He scored 26 points in the last 10. His teammate has scored 18. So he has been the better of the two in that stretch. And that includes a podium for Hajjar in Zambor as well. So even with that, Lawson has scored more. Good race pace on multiple occasions. Austria, I remember we were really

impressive what he did that day with his tire management. Baku, excellent defensive skills to claim P5. And the next step, there are two next steps, improve qualifying versus his teammate for sure. And yes, the wheel to will slightly scares me still. So it needs to improve there. Who's number four on your list, Sam? I'm flipping your list here. I've got Kimmy Antigley coming up, makes. Flip that. If you regard, you flip that. It's a very good meme that everyone is going to go. It is a good meme, damn it. as the old people say. Good meme.

Yeah, Kimi Antigelli is up next. I think I'm not going to reassert the points you just made, Ben, but the thing that stood out to me was before Mexico, the race head-to-head in Grand Prix was 19-0, essentially to George Russell, and that says everything you need to. The fact that even with some of the issues that Mercedes had been through, some of the poor moments where the car doesn't work out,

even just with the way that a season fluctuates, the fact that Kimi Antigelli, only in Mexico and due to team orders with the way they had to swap back or forth, that's the only time he's got in front across the line in front of Russell is a little worrying. He's also only had one podium, of course,

and that came at Canada. And I think when Russell has picked up, I think it's eight podiums, two of those being victories. It just tells you that there's quite a large divide at the moment between who's leading this team and who is learning.

And that's okay, he's a teenager. He's done not even a full year and F1, as Ben Seng, he's barely had three seasons in his junior formula as well. there's a lot to go there. There's a longer growth to come.

I do think a potential is right at the very top of this list. But in terms of this season, I think he's probably slightly underdelivered the expectations that I had. Who's number four on your list, Harry? This is a real shame because me and Sam are just agreeing on all front. Yeah, I've gone for Antonelli as well. Again, tough to judge because he is up against, you know, a world-class driver in George

Russell. I think, you know, Russell's up in the top three, four of drivers in F1 on the moment. That's a tough challenge.

Mercedes are a top team, although they sometimes don't act like one. But it was always going to be a tough environment for Antonetti to come into. So it's tough ones to judge because whilst Russell's doing, you know, getting race wins and podiums all the time,

it's not necessarily fair. I don't think to say Anthony should be doing the same, especially in his rookie year. but as you said Sam he hasn't beaten Russell very often and his pace versus him

fluctuates wildly sometimes he's right there with him sometimes he's absolutely nowhere and that in itself I think the pacing of what is more worrying than than anything else I think if he was quick all the time and crashed we were kind of expecting

from Anthony Nelly and he has done that then it would be fine but the fact that the pace does vary in some weekends he's absolutely nowhere versus Russell and then some weekends he's sort of there with him. Yeah, that's kind of why I've lowered him

down the list. But yeah, as I said, always a tough one. It was also going to be a tough challenge for him. Maybe it was too soon to go to a team like Mercedes as a reason George Russell did, you know, what was then finishing school at Williams for a few years before Toto promoted him. Obviously, that's not really an option anymore.

But yeah, it was going to be a tough challenge for Antenelli. but I have confidence it will, you know, it will improve and stabilise for him that he will be absolutely fine. And I think, you know, even better than fine, he'll be great. But right now it's a little bit lower down the list for him. So we know our top threes contain the same drivers. Will they be in the same order? History indicates yes, but we will soon see.

Sam, who's number three? Yeah, Ollie Behrman. So collective sigh, if you've got the same list, please. Berman is almost like the sleeper agent of the rookies. He's kind of the guy just completely running under the radar right now. And this is both a good thing and a bad thing. Because I think if you go through your rookie year and no one is questioning you, no one is sat there going, oh, do we need to look at this?

Has you got enough time? Is he in the right place? If no one's doing that, that tells me that people have confidence in you. People look at you go, you're an F1 driver. You're good. And that's a great sign for a rookie to have. And also, he's in a car that's been poor. That heart is regularly one of the slowest cars on the race track.

Can they get moments of brilliance where the car does seem to click well with the way that the track's working? But I think he's now had eight points finishes across the season, which is fantastic. And in the head-to-head, he's up 13 and 11 qualifying across all sessions, including sprint qualifying as well. So it shows going up a very experienced driver, solid midfield driver in Ocon, who, you know, this podcast gives a lot of compliments too. We think he's a real gem. Ben, bloody loves him, worships him. You know, you see it every show. The fact that he now sits 32 points to 30 over Ocon, while it's very close in the point.

points tally. He is hanging with the big kids in a car that is a tough to drive and he's very difficult to understand what his strengths are. I'd be really impressed. That fourth place that he picked up at Mexico topsing off is a really strong season so far for him. I just unlike Borsoletta and Hajar, who I have left, he hasn't had that almost like crowning moment, that like that breakthrough moment. Maybe that fourth place was. And I didn't want to scare too much more recently bias. But I've been impressed. And I think he's really come along as a season's coming on. That's the right way to be. You don't want to start strong and finish down in the lower end and go, well, he's kind of fizzled out.

It's gone the other way for me. He's picked up continually as the season's run on. So hopefully it carries on the last few Grand Prix. I think he's got a lot of talent to give to F1. Harry, who's number three? You'll be pleased to know, folks. Whoa. It's Gabby Bortoletto, so we haven't agreed all the way.

Content survives. Yeah, I've gone for Bortoletto number three. these top three, the last three on our list, I've actually found kind of tricky to order because they've all had great moments this year that could sway them in this list. I've gone for Bortoletto. Look, Bortoletto's been really impressive.

I think more impressive than perhaps I thought he was going to be. Again, the reason he hasn't got higher up on the list for me is he, whilst impressed, and especially, you know, he had a good streak against Nika Holkenberg, especially in call off, but also in race trim as well. Whilst that has been very impressive, for some reason, as we said, Holkenberg just went missing after Silverson, but appears to be back again. So I don't know how much I think that's impressive by Bortoletto or just not impressive by

Holkenberg, just a bit tough to tell on that one. And at the start of the season as well, which is fair, because it was, you know, It was the start of his rookie year and the car was trying to kill them every time they got in it. I don't think he fared too well against Holcombogberg in that scenario too. So, yeah, the fluctuation there is why he's got a third of my list, but overall been very impressed by Bortoletto. Fernando's training him very well with all of his lessons on track.

And I think he's got the makings to be a really, really great driver. And for Salba slash Aldi with Holkenberg, in Borteletto, that's a good little lineup they've got there. So yeah, it's been an impressive year so far from Bortoletta, but he's number three. Well, in the

blue corner, we have Gabriel Bortoletto in the red corner. We have Olly Berman. I'm going to change the whole game and introduce the third contender in here. Number three for me is Isaac Adjadjad, the Rizler. Qualifying, he's number one.

No doubt whatsoever. been, I was thinking about this the other day. I think he's been the best rookie qualifier since Russell or LeCler. I don't think anyone since then has been better at qualifying in their first year than Isaac Adjah. Russell was tough to evaluate in his first year of qualifying because he was against Kibitzer in that Williams. But I think you have to go back to 2018 or 2019. He's had 12 Q3 appearances, super impressive, the most in the midfield. And, you know, when he qualifies in 10th place, that's in his worst half of qualifying performances this year. That's how good he's been on a Saturday.

I was impressed straight away on his one lap pace. Like, he was, what was it, P7 in both the second and third race of the season? It didn't take him very long whatsoever to get up to speed. The only reason I've got him third and not slightly higher up is, and maybe it's car related to an extent, but he has struggled in terms of race pace a little bit in the second. half of the season. There have been a few instances where Tyaware seems to have got the better of him. The Canadian GP immediately springs to mind. Last time out in Mexico, of course, he was in a good position, only to then fall outside

the top 10. And he's only had three point scoring finishes in the last 11 races. So that's why I've got him third, but we are, as Harry Ede would say, we are splitting onions at this stage. Oh, yeah. Don't cry about it. Harry, who's number two on your list? I've gone for Isaac Hajar or Isaac Hajar. Isaac Ajah, how do we say his name? Ajah! Yeah, look, I agree.

Hadjar's been so impressive this year. I think he's, whilst Walter has surprised me, I think Hajar's been the surprise of the season for me, especially given where he was at Race 1, he was in the wall on the formation lap and that's a great way to start your career but from then on he's been super impressive and as you said Ben especially in qualifying

like super super fast and I think whilst um what whilst the I think in race pace and maybe that's just the racing bull car he's not been as good he's had some super impressive races and it's the fact that his qualifying has been so good in a year where

a lot of races have been defined by qualifying really useful to be really good at qualifying. So Hadja had just sort of done all the hard work on a Saturday this year and it's been very impressive. So I think, yeah, he's got great potential for the future. Does ETAC, I just hope they didn't put him in the Red Bull, which we'll get on to later. But yeah, so far he's been super impressive. So he's number two on my list.

Sam, who's runner up? Gabby Waterletto is rang her up for me. I've been so impressed with Gabby Bortoletto, and I think the numbers are deceiving in his battle against Miko Holgerberg, because he sits 19th currently in the driver's standings. He is well behind, it would seem, in the points. I think it currently stands at 22 points behind, or actually, if you took away the podium,

the one-off podium, the Hulk picked up in Silverstone, which whilst a brilliant drive, it was one of those days where right place, right time, it could have been new kind of thing. That gap comes down to just seven. points. And I do think that the pace that Bortoletto is displaying more often than not is consistently better than Holkenberg, especially in this big section of the other season where the Hulk has gone missing. We have multiple times commented that he's just not turned up for qualifying, not turned up for

the races. And yet, Gary Bortoletto is so regularly trying to pluck away for a point here or an unlucky 11th place there. And it's impressive the way, like even in Mexico, the way we saw him come back through the field and fight back through. His wheel to wheel racing is phenomenal. You can trust him to go racing and he's learning all the time you see the way that alonso's taking him to school two or three times this season but he doesn't have to take him to school again for the same thing because he's learned and he's developed and he's growing and hey if you go to class kids you got to come away with a bit of knowledge that's what that's what professor fangando tells you thanks dad so i've got i've got a lot of love for porteletto i've been really impressed with um just how

well he's held his own amongst some very very very tight talented rents drivers. And I think he's beating a lot of people around him this season. In terms of pacing actual ability, but I've been here a lot longer than him, but unfortunately, with the way that the cars have fallen and the way that the cars developed,

he's so far down the driver's championship. So I do think that the numbers are a little deceiving and it makes him look a little hard done by. So Audi have got an absolute gem on their hands. I've got Bortoletto at number two as well. Yeah, first 10 races, no points. Last 10 races, 19 points, and five points finishes as well.

Five points finishes in the last 10 races is more than Ghazly, Sonoda, Ocon, Lawson, Stroll, Behrmann, Seins, Hadger, Holkenberg and Albin. He has been consistently a feature in that top 10. He's 10 all with Holkenberg in races. He's 11-9-up in terms of qualifying. Holkenberg's a pretty good driver as well, even if he did go missing for a few races.

And I was just thinking, like, there's very few times this year that you can honestly say after a Grand Prix or after a weekend, Bortletto was just on. off the pace. That's been very, very rare. Sure, that Salber was just dire to start the year, but so was Holkenberg in the same car. It's very rare this year that we've gone, yeah, Bortoletto just really struggled. Holkenberg seemed to get a lot of the car and he didn't. So,

yeah, very good. Alonzo's lessons have taught him well and we'll continue to teach him well, I'm sure. Which means number one on your list, Sam, is Isaac Adjah. There is that. What a boy. I just love him. I just love that guy. He's so, he gets bogus points because being cool. And that works for me.

Coolness works. That's why Daniel Ricardo is one of the best. It's just cool. And how Jal fits into that same category for me. I'm so amazed with how he's turned up to this because I was really unsure with the way that the F2 battle went between him and Bortoletto the season before. It was really hard to know how they would stack up.

amongst the likes of Baerman and Antingelli and Colopinto when they were coming in. Because whilst they were fighting for the championship, we've seen it where champions haven't progressed. You look at Mick Schumack, for example, had some all right races, had a couple of good results. You've really worked out for him. So when you've got these two title contendants, coming into cars that are difficult to drive,

difficult to get results out of, he has been phenomenal, especially when the first race, he doesn't even make it through the formation lap and cries his heart out. So at that moment, I think he won us all over emotionally, but he had to win us over with his talent. And he's gone from strength to strength after that point. His average qualifying result is 9.6, right?

So that sits in one of the best qualifies. A high of fourth, the lowest of 16th. That's really great in a car like that. But his race positions are converted directly from that point as well. He's only on average one place behind his qualifying places. That's phenomenal. He's on 10.8 or something like that in terms of an average finishing position. Highest of a podium, which he picked up example.

Now, I know he got gifted back a little bit from the Landon Norris breakdown, but he was fourth on talent alone, on skill. He was out driving that car, and that fourth would have been enough to still get the same praise from me. It doesn't matter if it's a third or a fourth in that case. He earned being right up there, and his consistency on that front has been brilliant. I think you can easily look at recency bias and say the last few races haven't been fantastic. And you're right. The tie wearing Austin got the bigger of them.

The tie wearing Mexico got the bigger of him. He's a rookie. He's going to have something to learn from. That's the point. He's got to develop somewhere. Can't be the perfect driver. But the things he's doing well are his raw pace. And qualifying in Formula One is not going to state.

obvious, very important. And he has got that down to a tea. You can't teach draw pace. It's something you just have to be able to bring. And he's got that in spades. You can teach tieware. You can teach a bit of race management. And for the most part, he's being excellent. And his wheel to wheel racing, as I mentioned with Borselaetto is right up there as well. He's so trustworthy wheel to will. So rarely makes a mistake that causes another driver a problem. Even when him and Borsela a battle in Mexico, you trusted the two of them to get the job done. It was great to watch. I have just being enameled with him this season. He's a real character.

He's driving. He's amazing. I love how passion it is over the radio. He will be in Formula One for a very, very long time. So he's number one on my rookie list. Hadjar's not top of your list, though, Harry. Yeah, I've got, I've gone for Oliver Bermann. Like I said earlier, I did find this top three actually quite difficult to order.

And I can hear the screams of British bias, reasoncy bias, hurtling there, towards me as I speak. But Olly Behrman has had an underrated season. And yes, the fourth place in Mexico is that cranny moment. For me, I think. I know obviously that's only just happened. We haven't had the subsequent races. But even before that, he has been, he has been superb, I think.

And the points don't necessarily show that. I don't think the house is, well, at most races, the house isn't a very good car. Oliver Benham just kept getting P11s because no one retired or nothing else happened in front of him that meant he could actually pick up more points. But I think his performances have deserved more points than he's actually got. He's obviously ahead of Ockon in the standings

and we know Establan Ockon is no slouch. Yeah, I think he said it's a super impressive year. And it's a, you know, for Ferrari, they've got a potentially tasty little driver to help them out in the post, either post-Lacler, post-Hamilton era, maybe post both of them when they finally crack and both leave.

But yeah, they've got a nice, nice junior driver on their hands there. I think Bairman's been super impressive. Like I said, I think it's sort of flown under the radar somewhat because a lot of his great results have been P-11s basically in the car that I don't think is necessarily deserving

of being in that spot. So, yeah, Berman is top of my list and I don't care. British bias. Bearman is also top of my list. I don't care, British bias. I'd have had him number one. Okay, because a lot of people are even going to say British bias or recency bias.

And hey, some of you might hit the jackpot and say both. But I would have had him number one before Mexico. And I think he was really unlucky earlier in the season not to benefit from these really low attritional races. Like he was 10th in Japan when 20 drivers finished. He was 10th in Bahreux. when 18 drivers finished. If there's a little bit more chaos in either of those two Grand Prix, he picks up more than just two points there.

And you're right, Harry, with the string of P-11s that he's had, he has been far more consistent than what he's given credit for. He's been in the top 12 in 14 of the 20 races so far this year. The problem is seven of those 14 have either been 11th or 12. Now, of course, for the point standings, that doesn't mean anything. but in terms of showing who seems to have it week in, week out, I think it does prove something.

He has more top 12 finishes this year than Antonelli and Albin. Apart from the top six, he's ahead in that category. So I've been impressed by his race pace all season long, does need to work a little bit on qualifying, but based on Ocon struggles in qualifying as well, I have to lean towards that being an issue with the car rather than an issue with him. So I've got Bearman number one as well.

Sam, just to summarize your top six? Yeah, in sixth, I had Colopinto. In fifth, I've got Liam Lawson in fourth, Kimmy Antigari, third, Ollie Bearman, second, Gabby Borseletto. And first, the qualifying king of the rookies, the undisputed champ, he's a cadjar, he's the boy. And Harry, your top six was? Sixth, I had Colopinto, fifth, Liam Lawson,

fourth, I had Antonelli, third, Gabby Bortoletto, second, Issa Cajar, and then number one, Oliver Behrman, an underrated, consistent year from the British rookie. Yeah, and I had Colopinto number six, Antonelli at five, Liam Larson at number four, Isaac Adjjar at number three, Gabriel Borteletto at number two, and I had Oliver Berman at number one, very underrated throughout this year, is showing really impressive race pace even this early in his F1 career. That's our top sixes.

I'm sure there's going to be disagreement from people abound. So let us know, were we wrong with this list? Would Jack Duhn have been number one if he was included? Let us know. And we'll do our best to respond and tell you why we're right and you're wrong. But opinions are very valid, of course.

We'll take a quick break at this point. On the other side, we're getting into the Red Bull second driver discussion. Welcome back to the late-breaking F-1 podcast here on a non-race Sunday. We're going to get into a bit of a chat about Red Bull because Red Bull will wait a little bit longer to decide its 2026 Formula One driver lineups,

lineups, plural, of course, because we are including racing bulls in this discussion. Red Bulls Motorsport Advisor Helmut Marco had previously indicated that a decision would be made after the Mexico race, with confirmation potentially coming as early as this gap before the Brazilian GP. But this is no longer the plan.

according to the race. When asked by the race about Sonoda's weekend in Mexico and the impact it could have on his bid to keep his seat, Lauren Mecky said Sonoda, making steps forward is one of the reasons why we want to take a bit more time before we make a decision on the drivers. Well, Harry, why do you think they've delayed this decision a little bit?

I don't know, Jeff. Cheers, Mike. I look, it's well documented, well discussed. the problems that Rebel have of that second seat. And I think they're probably coming to the realization if they hadn't already, which would be a shock, but coming to the realization that they just don't know what to do with their second driver problem.

Yeah, I find it odd that rebels set themselves the deadline of Mexico or post-Mexico in the first place. So why do you need to do that? What's the point? They've got time. There's no real pressure to do this. So the fact they said that in the first place was interesting.

So yeah, they've also gone back on that decision. But yeah, look, it's just a tricky situation for them. They've got Yuki Sonoda, who we know is a solid driver, was performing well before he got put in that seat and has struggled. They obviously got Liam Lawson. Their backups are Liam Rawson, who they've already dumped after two races. So, you know, we've seen before they are unlikely to go back to a driver

they're dumped, ask Pierre Gasly, Danny Fiat, etc. et cetera. So that doesn't seem like the right option. And obviously they're wary, especially in I guess now the Lauren Mecky's era of Red Bull, that promoting drivers too early is not the solution. So, you know,

we've just talked about rookies. Hagear was very high up on all of our list, number one on Sam's. Do they risk ruining yet another young driver by putting them in that seat? So I think, yeah, the reason for delaying is just to give them more time to have a thing about what to do. Do they go back to what they did in 2021? Do they seek outside assistance, you know, in the form of not a young driver, which maybe is the option, I don't know.

But I think for the time be they've got a bit of a conundrum on their hands that they need to have a thing through. I think the primary reason is Max Verstappen. And I'm not saying like Vestappen is meddling in any way in this discussion. I don't think he's doing that at all. And I'm not saying there aren't other factors as well. But I think Vastappan's title charge, maybe unexpected title charge, is the reason why they're delaying this. We saw in Mexico that Sonoda was deployed to help Max Verstappen. Sonoda got a pretty good start to the Grand Prix, despite being on the medium tires.

Oscar Piastri didn't get a great start to the race despite being on the better soft tire. And Sonoda was essentially asked, can you hold up Oscar Piastri for as long as you can in order to help out for Stappan in the driver's championship. And look, he held him up for, what was it, 10, 11 laps in the end. And we don't know how that race panned out as a result of him being delayed. Like, maybe that cost him two points. Maybe he does get fourth place rather than fifth place, Piastri, if he gets by Sonoda straight away.

And that two points could be incredibly important come the end of the year. Sonoda might well come in handy for the rest of these Grand Prix. Like, if they're in that same position again, they will want him to hold up drivers where he can. And I don't think that was likely to be a situation a few months ago. And regardless of whether he has a chance at Red Bull for next year, Red Bull will want him to think there's a chance because if Sonoda's motivated,

he's more likely to help out Vastappen. He's more likely to bring out absolutely everything he's got in order to help out Vastappen in that title fight. And if you were to give him a contract now, maybe he is too comfy, too settled, and again, doesn't go 100% to help the Stappan. So I think, unfortunately, as savage as it sounds, keeping Sonoda on the hook for now is Red Bulls best play for the Stappan's championship charge. Sam, what do you think the main reason is?

Well, looks like we got a case to crack. I think this is actually really difficult to work out what's going on. I think there are a number of moving parts happening here. I think you're right to bring up Max Verstappen's title charge. I do think that is playing a part in this. And having a dedicated wingman that is able to throw everything behind what he can do to assist in that title charge. And Max Verstapp is their biggest asset. They can keep him happy by Yucis Sanko-Nicking a point here and there off of a Piascu or Norris if they're struggling.

Makes a lot of sense. Alongside that, I do think that they're struggling with what to do with the overall dynamic of the team. I think Meckes has understood that promoting a junior driver too soon is likely to ruin another line of talent that they have. They're starting to run out of options. They currently only really have Libladen F2. And he's the highest-paced rookie in seventh place overall. He's won a couple of sprint races. Hasn't, to my knowledge, picked up a feature race wing.

And I do think that he'll need a bit more time to develop whilst I think he's a very exciting talent. I wouldn't want to see him jump into an F-1 car if he's got ready. But these rookies have proven themselves more than I expected. so maybe it'll be another surprise for me. The issue here, of course, is if the car isn't ready, they put Limbaugh into racing balls, they put Hajar up into Red Bull, they lose Yuki Sangoda,

and neither of them work out, that's a massive cost, because they're losing other two drivers there immediately. And at that point, you've got right, we've got Lorsi and the other car who had never got to promote. We've lost Yuki Sangoda, who was always a pretty solid ally for us. Hajar is being ruined by the second seat syndrome that we've got here,

and maybe Limblar doesn't live up to expect. So I think they're really, why they set this as a deadline in Mexico, I don't know. They could give themselves the last day before the living car was releasing 26 that they really wanted to because all those drivers will cling on for a contract. I think the other thing that's going on here,

Hachar has made it relatively well known that he isn't desperate to jump into the Red Bull seat at the first chance. It's not immediately wanting to be that driver. I think sensibly so. Matured in the junior team is what it's for. That's the reason for the junior team. That's why you race there.

I think he's seen what's happened to the drivers beforehand, what's happening to Yuki Sanoa. I don't think he wants that to happen to him. So I think if they are discussing contracts, they are discussing a promotion, I do wonder if there's maybe some clauses put in place. I do wonder if there's maybe some kind of, you can't just boot me out if the car isn't how I drive.

You can see I've got talent. So don't kick me out six races in just because it's set up very much for Max for Stappen. I would be surprised if there's some pushback from Isaac. Kajar's team to try and get a big idea lag than what the other drivers have gone. Because how long can this really go on for when this second seat doesn't deliver any good? So Max Verstapp is having to put the whole team on his shoulders. So many moving parts, why this is the deadline, I don't know.

But there's a lot of things that could go into this second seat. It really isn't a one solution for this, I don't think. Harry, is this an instance where having that second team might not be overly beneficial because they have to take into account that lineup before they can even really make a decision about the senior lineup. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's really, it's really odd or really surprising

that Red Bull are in this position. And they've made their, you know, they've made their bed for themselves. It's not, it's no one, no one else's fault bar them. But the fact they, they have these options, they theoretically have these options of a, of a younger team.

No other team has. properly. But yet, it's actually causing them more of a headache because they have to consider that lineup as well before they consider the, you know, the full senior squad, so speak. Yeah, it's a uni one. It could well with the cases going into next year that they've got to consider racing balls first before they do Red Bull, which is magnes. So don't envy a Red Bull, but quite frankly, it's your own fault.

So bed ball bed ball because they made their beds well done that's good back again do you want to answer that question honestly you see the top shelf that's where I pulled that from yeah racing balls

I don't I can't see Sonoda being demoted I just can't see that as a fired or staying that's your option I think so which of course now means in the next like three days it'll be announced that he's back

to racing balls next year but surely at this point you've seen everything you need to see from Sonoda in that junior team to know whether you want to stick by him or not. I think you've just got to make the decision one way or the other. I have to say, I personally wouldn't mind Limbler doing another year in F2. I don't think he's quite. I think he's a year out. And he did have some shining moments in F2 this year,

but he also made some errors, as you would expect from someone who has been elevated up the ladder as quickly as he has. He did make some errors in F2. I wouldn't mind him doing another season, but I think the odds of that are maybe less likely thanks to, well, firstly, both Campos seats have now been filled, so he's not going to be returning there if he does go back to F2. And I do think Helmut Marco, I think he wants Limblud in that seat.

After what he did in Mexico practice, which he was very, it was a lot of praise went Limblud's way after what he did in the FP1 in Mexico. I think Marco might want him in that seat next year. So yeah, it might just mean that as a result of both of those, it is Agar that needs to make the rise up to Red Bull. Last one on this one, Harry, is there anything that these drivers can do between now and the end of the year?

Obviously, they say outwardly that they're still debating this, still thinking about options. In reality, has it been decided but not announced, or can they actually still change their destiny? no i i think with rebel the rebel teams especially i think they they they look at everything

up until the last race i don't think they um you know we saw this with yeah when they got pears on board it was almost like he got that win obviously in 2020 in the in the racing points and that kind of like sealed the deal for red bull to you know christian who are doing that hi hi hi it's christian welcome aboard yeah exactly

but I do think they do wait until the bitter end to make that decision we saw it with Perez last year as well obviously I talked about hiring now that the firing of him but they gave him sort of every opportunity up until the end of the season I don't think they'd made a decision until it was fully done so yeah there's this opportunity for these drivers to still in still impressed I'm not saying they're going to just take the last four races and nothing else into account but

if they are a good last four races, it could be enough to save their bacon. Sam, do you think that there is still something to fight for here for all drivers involved? I think Yuki's gone. I don't think you can rescue this. I don't think he's, unfortunately, I think he's another victim. He's fallen foul of this second seat.

And unless he's got some power internally or a big backer internally that's willing to put their foot down and kind of say, we need to alter the car to suit the second driver a bit more. I don't think he's going to win that battle right now, unfortunately, especially with how well Hajar's been doing and the fact that, like you said, Helmut Marco is trying to line up Limbaugh to get into F1. It does feel like he's fought a very much losing battle here.

So I don't think Hajjah is going to do anything more either. I think he's the natural successor. I think he's done his job. Everyone else has had to go and not done well, so you're not going to put them back in before trying the guy that hasn't had to go yet. I kind of think, unless they decide to keep it completely status quo because someone like Hagger doesn't want to move up yet,

that's the only saving grades for UK Shingoda. Even then, I think there's a weird chance they might go external for a one-year deal somewhere. I just don't know who it is. I don't know who it is. That's the thing. I think they would go with that option if there was someone out there. But I don't know.

They've left it quite late. So there's not too many options out there. It'd be interesting to see how that goes for the remainder of the season and what decision both teams make on their. lineups for a very important 2026 season kicking off the new regs. Well, we're going to take our next break on this episode. On the other side, we're getting into Crashgate. Welcome back, everyone.

As reference before the break, we are going to get into what's going on in the courts with Crashgate, but we appreciate that we're picking up new listeners all the time. And this was an event that happened over 15 years ago now, so not far off 20 years ago. So it would be worth explaining what happened very quickly. So in 2008 during the Singapore Grand Prix, Renault ordered their driver Nelson P.K. Jr. to crash deliberately to help teammate Fernando Alonzo win the Grand Prix. The crash brought out a safety car that handed Alonzo a big advantage, while rivals like Felipe Massa, important to this story, lost out. The plot was later dubbed Crashgate. It was revealed in 2009, leading to bans for Renault bosses, Flavio Brio Tori and Pat Simmons. The race results stood and Lewis Hamilton won the championship. by one point over Felipe Massa. Now skip forward to 2025. Felipe Massa is suing the FIA, Formula One management and Bernie Ecclestone in the UK

high court, seeking around £60 million in damages. He claims a cover-up cost him the title, citing a 2023 Ecclestone interview, suggesting officials do about the deliberate crash, but didn't act. The defendants argue the case is too old and that Massa's own errors cost in the title. even if he does win in the courts, by the way, Felipe Massa, the official result won't change. Hamilton will remain the 2008 world champion. Sam, do you agree with the FIA and F1's defence here

that Massa actually cost himself the title that year? That season definitely wasn't without errors from himself and Ferrari. You know, that's factual. Even in that Grand Prix, they hang a pit stop blunder, which caused them to be further down the order than expected. So there were definitely moments where Massa wasn't hitting the high notes all season and scoring every point. And that was the only thing that changed it, but you do have to argue that had the result gone the way it probably would have gone before the accident happened, it would have been much more likely that Masa was going to win that title thing, ending up not winning the title.

So I see his frustration. He's also missed out on winning a world title. That's what they've done their whole career for to get to this point to win a championship. Now, I think this is more about Massa's reputation and what's. wanting the recognition rather than actually rewriting history. I don't think he's expecting to have Hamilton's name scrubbed off the trophy and put his name on it or something like that. There's too many other variables to actually change the decision that happened at the end

of the season. Hamilton is the champion. But I do think it's very fair to sit there and go, we've learned new information. An interview came out by the guy that was running the show at the time that everyone knew what was going on at that point and we didn't. That's new information. And that's pretty worried to hear. actually there was a cover-up that happened.

So I think he's got every right to take them to court and ask the questions and try and get all the facts out there. If you lose this, because it turns out that actually it wasn't a cover-up and no one did know, fair enough. Totally fair. But if it comes out that people had gone about it and a cover-up and taken place and there was a big old scandal going on, Philippine Mass has got every right to expose that and bring that to might. And I think he's got every right to ask the question, which in a legal sense is literally what he's doing. I think X, because of you've done why, true or false. And if it's true, give me some money because I lost out on a lot of sponsorship,

long about revenue. His reputation has changed forever. The difference between being a one-time champ and a no-time champ, you go on and do so many other things, which you probably lose out of because he's just a race winner. So he's got every right to be frustrated to investigate this and to ask the question. Quote, Felipe Massa, give me some money. I bet that's what he's saying at the court. I reckon so. It's a great defence.

Well, fortunately, we now go across to our legal correspondent, and that is Harry Yead. Do you agree with the FIA and F1's defence here? It's quite funny, actually. I mean, the FIA don't do many things that make me laugh, but this really got me. The quote, Mr. Masses claimed conspicuously overlooks a catalogue of his own errors is savage.

They dabbed after they did. The lead two dabbed in court after they did. The transcripts on the transcript. Dabbed. Massa gets no money. They win. But yeah, it's like there's two different, almost like two different arguments here. There's the, there's the, would Felipe Massa have been world champion,

which is such a if-bots and maybe a question, isn't it? Because, yeah, maybe he would have been. But then something else could have happened in that race in Singapore, had they not pit and had the fuel thing not happen, et cetera. So I think that that is You know the FIS defense is Pretty sound on that one because There are so many other factors in a season of F1

That can contribute to you being a world champion or not And they're right you know Silverston Silverston that year with Massa spun about five or six times all by himself Could have could have contributed to him not being world champion there in 2008 So I think that's fine I think the other argument or other side to this is more about you know, was there

a cover-up? And I think that's what that's probably the more important point here, which I think is being masked by the fact that we're talking about could Massa have been champion. I think that is probably the one that is tricky to work out, tricky to get the truth on.

And whether this will help I'm kind of doubtful, to be honest. But, you know, if there was some cover-up of this of Crashgate at the time, I think that's trickier ground for the FAA to defend because either way, that's bad. That's not good. No matter the outcome of the championship, that's just bad in itself.

So I think that's going to be the more interesting point. My worry is that a lot of this is just being a lot of the headlines are going to be, you know, quotes like that which are savage and funny. But I think a lot of the coverage is going to be around. Well, Massa wouldn't have been chap in anyway. but I think actually the proper point is was there a cover-up by the FAA and whoever, Bernie, et cetera.

But we may never know out of this one. I'm intrigued to see how this will play out. It's quite unusual. Well, I could court hearing F1, but not on this scale, I don't think. So it's interesting. Yeah, I don't know if the truth is going to come out because Bernie Ecclestone's defense is

he doesn't remember the interview that he gave, which was two years ago. Him and Flav. I don't remember anything. I just don't remember it, mate. which feels like Bernie Echolstone's primary way of going about legal business. This is incredible because this is maybe, this is so FIA and F1 because I think they're right and yet I still disagree with them.

I just think the line of line of defence isn't actually, I don't agree with it. Like, yes, Massa made some errors throughout that season. We've reviewed on Patreon the 2008 British GP where he went. spinning 15 times and there were a couple of other races where he was subject to a spin or two. He made errors throughout that season, no doubt. A catalogue of errors is a bit harsh FIA, but he certainly made errors. But they're kind of irrelevant because we're not talking about any of those Grand Prix. We're talking about Singapore. That's what Mass is going after. He's going after the result in Singapore and saying that's the reason why. Every other race is

kind of irrelevant to why he's in court in the first place. It's not like with, and I'm sorry to bring it up, it's not like with Abu Dhabi 2021, you don't hear an argument of, well, sorry, Louis, you feel a bit hard done by in Abu Dhabi, but hey, if you just held off Max Vastappen in France earlier on in the season, you'd have actually won the title. We didn't even need to go to Abu Dhabi. You don't really hear that argument because everything is focused on what happened in Abu Dhabi. It's the same thing here about what happened in Singapore. Massa and company are claiming everything went differently after the safety car made an appearance. And due to why it came out, if you were to invalidate that race, Massa would then essentially win the championship. Hamilton

would be docked the six points he got in that Grand Prix and Massa wouldn't lose anything. It's the everything has been tarnished argument that Massa is really going for. and his legal team. The problem is I don't agree with that either because whilst I do feel very bad for Felipe Massa and what happened after the safety car, it wasn't an attack directly against him. A lot of drivers lost out as a result of that safety car, including Lewis Hamilton. Like, it didn't benefit Lewis Hamilton when the safety car came out. But Lewis Hamilton didn't have that incredibly slow pit stop, whereas Ferrari did, and the race kind of changed from there.

I think the issue with Masses, what he's going after here is that in the history of F1, there have been 153 disqualifications of a driver. But as far as I can tell, there's never been an invalidation of a result. But of course, if you just go for saying, well, Renault, you know, they didn't play ball in that race, they should have been disqualified. That doesn't give Mass of the World Championship, which is why they're not going for that line of thinking. And now I'm just trying to get the whole result sort of thrown out as it would. Yeah, so in the end, I don't agree with the FIA and the way in which they're attacking Massa.

I also don't agree that Massa's in the right here and deserves compensation for what happened. What way do you think it will go? It's a very good question. My guess is it's chucked out. Or they come to some lower settlement maybe at some point. I'm not sure, but I don't think Massa's going to get the 60 million he's hoping for. There's just not enough physical substance of evidence. It's all a bit hearsay, who said what?

And that's not going to stand up in court, I don't think. And I mean this with the, I don't mean this horribly or morbidly, but Bernie Ecclestone's probably not going to be around for much longer. Oh, he will. To be honest. He will. He will never go. But, yeah, I don't know.

There's maybe a time limit on what Massa can do. Bernie will be the first, in Futurama, they had those heads in jars that you carried around that talked, that would be Bernie Eccleston. He'll be the first of those. Yeah. No, I'm not going to say that. I'm definitely not going to say that. Right.

Let's take our final break on this episode. On the other side, we'll play an F1, Order Please. Yes. Welcome back to the final part of today's episode. It's time for a game of Order Please. Whether it's a can of Coca-Cola or a lump of cheese, or we're ordering drivers by the size of their knees. This game is full of facts, just you wait and see.

This is Formula One. Order, order, please. Beautiful. There are six questions in this game, and Harry and Sam will take it in turns to try and guess an order of four things. They can be drivers, tracks, pretty much anything in F1. They'll give that a go.

If they get it right, they get a point. And John Burko is very happy. More on that, if any of them, get one of these right. But if they get it wrong, there is a decision for the other player. Do they try and steal a point? If they get it right, they get a point, but there's Jeopardy and trying to steal a point because if they also get it wrong, they lose a point. Sam, what number would you like to kick off this game?

I'll have number four, please, Ben. Number four. I'm going to give you four races, all of which were won by Lando Norris. I want you to order them based on the win margin over second place. Oh, okay. You've got the 2025 Australian GP, the 2024 Miami GP, 24 Singapore GP, GP, Grippy, and the 2025 Monaco Grand Prix. Okay. What order would you like the name? From the biggest win margin to the closest.

Biggest to the closest. Okay. Oh gosh, there's a couple in there. I can't fully remember. So, yeah, this will be good. Okay. Biggest, I think, was. Singapore, 24, then Monaco, 25, then Miami, then Australia. But they say about Miami that's sticking out to me that makes it feel like it was really close, and I'm forgetting why. That is not the correct answer. Harry, would you like to try and steal this one? Nope. Good.

Well, at least you're honest. Keeping the game fresh. You weren't far off. You were right in saying that the 2024 GP was the largest margin. at 20.9 seconds. It's then the middle two that were the other way around. So, 2024, Miami was 7.6 seconds.

2025 Monaco was 3.1 seconds. And then 2025, Australia, that went down to the wire, 0.8 seconds. He won over the Stappen. So either end was fine, just the meat in the middle. Ah, that's where I've always struggled, mate.

Yeah, right. Harry, what number would you like? Number six? I'm going to give you four drivers. I want you to list them based on how many times they've been in Q3 this year. Okay. You've got Fernando Alonzo, Esteban Ocon, Yuki Sanoda and Pierre Gazley. We're starting with least.

Start with most. Come on. Okay. Alonzo Sonoda, Ocorden, Gassley. Is it what he said? Yes, those were the four drivers. That wasn't my order. I was checking with that.

Yeah, those are the four drivers. I'll refer Alonzo the most. Then Sonoda Ocon Gassley. Is that literally just the order I said? But yes, Alonzo Sinoa of Gassley. That isn't the correct order. Would you like to try and steal?

It was very in my nature to steal. Out of context, F-1. That's done my job for me. Cheers, yeah. Yeah, sure. I like a minus. Like I said, it gets me going on a Sunday to lose a game of burger, please.

So why not? So my options are also, Sonoda, Ocon, Gazzley. Yes. And that's the order. I would recommend not doing it in that order. That's the order. Okay. I am going to keep the ends the same, but I'm going to swap the middle. I'm going to say I'll also Ocon, Sonoda, Gadsley. He loves a minus on a Sunday morning, doesn't he?

You can have one here, mate. Lovely. We go to zero minus one. The correct order was Fernando Alonzo is number one. He's had 10 Q3 appearances this year. Then it's Yuki Sanoda with eight. Then it's Pierre Gasly with seven. Ockon's only been in Q3 twice this year so he is bottom of the list Matt of respect to Gasley by the way Yeah I know right

He hasn't had one in a while But he had quite a few for a while Yeah Big up my guy Sam you have an immediate chance To redeem yourself It's back to you What number would you like?

I'll have number five please Number five I'm going to give you four drivers And I'll give you the constructor that I'm looking for in each instance as well Most poles for one construct

there. Okay. So you've got LeCler at Ferrari, as you can probably guess. Massa, also at Ferrari, Alonzo at Renault and Schumacher at Benetton. Oh, let's get the old note pack out again. Lecler Ferrari, Massa, Ferrari, Alonso at Reno and Schumacher at Benetton. Okay. I'm going to go, Lecler Most, Alonso's second, Schumacher third, Massa fourth, most to least. It's a quiet day for John Burko so far. That is not the correct answer. Harry, would you like to have the last time I got one and he's right, actually. No, I do not want to steal them. These are horrible, Ben. I've been too easy with some of these quizzes recently. I realised I had to step up my game.

You're literally kicking me down the curb here, mate. Well, I'll stay at 0-1-1, thank you. That's much better. Yeah, that's fair enough. I thought you had it, some, because you started this list correctly by saying LeCler is number one. He's at 27 pole positions for Ferrari.

You were right in saying Alonzo at Reno is number two. He had 16, but then it's Felipe Massa at Ferrari. with 15, followed by Schumacher at Benetton with 10. I thought he didn't have many poles at all at Ferrari. Yeah, I was surprised, actually. I thought it was a bit fewer than that. But yeah, we stay at nought minus 1. Harry, over to you.

What number would you like? Number three, please, Ben. Here we go, number three. Are you aware of a gentleman called Walter Costa? I'm so glad to pick three for once. I'm so happy. No big Walter well, actually. Yeah, well, Walter Costa is well known for asking the longest question ever in an FIA press conference.

I'll give you four words. I want you to list them based on when they appeared in his question. Come on now. Okay. Oh, I'm so happy. I won't be saying this if you get so wrong, just so we're clear. Your four words are computer. Christ.

Louder, as in the driver. not, yeah. Computer. Computer, louder, view, yeah. And monkey. It's like some weird password

you have to do to get in. Yeah. Two-factor authentication here on the late breaking podcast. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to go for number one,

so earliest, um, view, louder monkey computer. Oh my God. I know. I'm disgusted of myself because I think I knew that.

I was like, gentlemen of short view back to the past. That's the classy one. And then he talks about Nikki Lauder. And I think it's about being a monkey in front of the computer. And I was like, as disgusting that I even know that,

I need to go and touch some grass. Grow up. You're a sad little man. I'm not going with the full question. here, but the start of it goes, gentlemen, a short view back to the past. 30 years ago, Nikki Lauder told us, take a trained monkey, place him into the cockpit and he's able to drive the car. 30 years later, Sebastian told us, I to start my car like computer. It's very complicated. And then that's not even half of the question, by the way, but well done. I'm sorry.

No, you're not. No, you're not. I'm just a shame. I couldn't even get Q3 appearances, right, and you've got that, you nerd. Nurd. At least I'm cool. Well, cool, Sam. What number would you like? One, please, because I'm number one. Not at the moment, but who knows?

There's still time. Number minus one. Yeah. Points in 2014 for these four drivers. Yes, they had some. All of them did, I can confirm. That's a point. You've got Fernando Alonzo.

Walter I Bottas Nika Holkenberg and Daniel Ricardo You want most to least Yes please Okay Most I'm right down

Ricardo Bottas Alon Hulk Botas Alonso I say it in that order because I think that's my order So there you go Sorry what was the order

It was Ricardo Bottas Alonso Hulk I was really what that the only time John Burko would be needed today was for the question about Walter Costa. But that is not the case. Gets you back to zero and keeps you in the game. Ricardo was first.

He finished third in the championship with 238. Then it was Bottas in fourth on 186. Alonzo was P6, 161. And then Holcomburg finished with 96 points down in 9th. which means the all-important question, Harry, what numbers left? Good question. I still remember what the first one Sam said was. So could I have either two or four, please?

You can. Which one do you want? The one that's available. You can have number two. Four constructors here. I want you to list them based on the number of wins they've had at Abu Dhabi. Okay. Lotus, Mercedes, Red Bull and McLaren.

Okay. From least to most, Lotus, Middle East, then McLaren, and then, oh, then Red Bull, then Mercedes. That is not the correct order. Sam, I don't want to make your decision for you, but it probably makes sense to try and steal this one. What was the order that Harry gave? It was Lotus, McLaren, and then Red Bull, the Mercedes.

I will swap the top two. I will steal. I'll go Lotus McLaren, Mercedes, Red Bull. And we end with a drone. I didn't think we were going to get to one all at one point in this Grand Prix, but we have got to one all. Oh, Johnny. Yeah, Lotus only had one win at Abu Dhabi.

Then it's McLaren who have two wins. Mercedes, Red Bull, very close. Mercedes have six wins. Red Bull have seven. But Ferrari have never won at Abu Dhabi. I'm not surprised, actually. Given how long we've been there, that's still weird, though, right? I haven't won this year.

They're going to win a gang. Who knows it's Ferrari. Just crushed dreams and make you cry. Big claim. Never again. I did make a claim that they wouldn't win the World Championship until we get past 2030 a few years ago. They're proving me right.

Yeah. I'm not going to bet against you on that one. Well, with that lovely remark, should we end this episode, Sam? Go on, then. Thanks for this good, folks. We are back to F1 action this week as it's going to be the Brazil Grand Prix

and there's a sprint race. So join us, midweek, for the preview for the weekend. We'll also be back with our standard broadcasting schedule

of a sprint qualifying review, a sprint race slash qualifying review, and the race review. And then power rankings will be on the Monday for you, Patreon, subscribers. And I'll be thank you to everyone

that is over in Patreon City. If you want to check it out, links in the description. I think beer we're breaking for October's just gone live. And that is a real hoot. So checking out. A lot of fun.

Get to go and producer Kirstie. She's always lovely. Thanks for Liskin. See you, Mick Week. In the meantime, I've been Samuel Sage. I've been Ben Hocking and I've been Harry Ead. And remember, keep breaking late. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.