The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Red Bull's internal FEUD!

Episode Date: October 6, 2024

Ben and Sam chat through the latest in F1 as we reach halfway through the Autumn break! First up, Red Bull's internal power struggles and more fallout following Ricciardo's dismissal. They also discuss Ferrari's upcoming upgrades, Alpine's development, and the postponement of F1's "rookie race", before finishing with a game of Fill in the Blank... FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. Very warm, welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Sam Sage. And me, Ben Hocking. What is F1, Sam? I've made racist, distant memories. I can a oasis in the desert.

Perhaps I might see one after a mirage. A mirage. A mirage. Yes, hopefully back, well, within a forest, Fortnite, we might be back, oh, we'll be there. Have we mentioned it? I don't think so. But I haven't said that one before. I was sick to death of that joke. Don't worry. It's only two weeks left.

Yeah, that's the only reason I actually want to go to Texas now is so we don't have to joke about going to Texas anymore. Yeah, honestly, one week until we go, trying not to annoy everyone with my English excitement. Yeah, it is weird to think we'll be, it will be race day. Next recording, you'll be here with me and we'll be too excited to sleep like a kid at Christmas. Yeah. That's a bit wild, isn't it? Anyway, we still have some F1 chat, don't you worry, folks. There's still plenty to keep us out of trouble.

We've got fill in the blank later on. That's a game that doesn't make a very regular appearance. And the amazing jingle that goes with it, folks, that's one to, I was going to say not to miss, but it's probably one to miss. I've heard it for so long. I've basically forgotten it. That's a good one. It's excitement for you as well as everyone else.

We've got F1 canceling the rookie race in Abu Dhabi. at the end of this season. Alpine, and their out-of-sync development, our thoughts on that. Ferrari, upgrade plans, plenty of that to come as well. But we're going to start with some comments from Christian Horner and Helmut Marco

regarding Daniel Ricardo's exit from the RB team. He nearly lost his seat, according to this report. As early as the Spanish Grand Prix, if Helmut Marco had had his way, Marco lobbied for RB to replace him after that race in June. Christian Horner had this to say to the official,

F1 channel. He started the season roughly. Miami was a weekend of two halves. The Friday and Saturday morning was fantastic and it looked like the Daniel of old defending against Ferrari's and out driving the car, but then the Saturday afternoon and Sunday were disastrous. Even around Barcelona, Helmut wanted him out of the car and there was already a lot of pressure on him there. I've done my very best to buy as much time in the car to allow him to deliver. Otherwise, he would have been out the car much earlier. All the drivers are under pressure to deliver, but the reason that Daniel was in that car was to get himself back into a position to ultimately be there to pick up the pieces if Checo didn't deliver. And the problem was they both had issues with form

at varying times. Checo started the season very well and Daniel was struggling. And then obviously as Checo lost form, Daniel found a bitter form, but it was never compelling enough to say, okay, we should switch the two drivers. Sam, does it sound like there's more disagreements internally about how this has been handled and how it should have been handled? I'm baffled that this is a conversation that's playing out normally, let alone in the public eye. It's once again, Red Bullers or family are airing their dirty laundry to the press. It's really odd to see Christian Hornering Helmut Marco essentially having a little war of words in form of the press management here.

This is very showing of a negative culture that's going on at a moment across the family. And the most crazy part in all of this is that no one from the RB Visa Cashap team has been interviewed or asked or brought into the conversation. at all. The actual team that they are racing for. No Lauren Meckis involved or anything like that

who gets a say about their drivers not involved, not even asked, not even considered. Don't even hide it that they're not two separate teams, come on. That Brown is having a field day. He's usually they're getting it a little leverage to lock her out.

Put that one in the draw. Thank you. I feel a bit sorry for Daniel Ricardo here because he was brought back obviously damaged his hand. So Liam Lawson got a fair crack at it, which I do think, inadvertently, put extra pressure on Daniel

Ricardo, Pauls Lawson was so good when he came in because he was excelling in the role in that second Rabe seat. I think when Daniel Rikaga got back in the seat and didn't deliver more than what Lawson could deliver. A lot of people kind of turned around and went, well, why are they putting this old guy in to this junior team? If actually the junior driver is just as good and it's got another 15 years of his career left. And I understand that pressure. I don't disagree with that comment, really. It does make sense to me.

But if you're going to commit to Daniel Ricardo, then commit to Daniel Ricardo. and let him have the season to, you know, really spread his wings, get out maybe the negative habits or the negative mindset that he picked up. We're asking McLaren. We know that McLaren for him was a very poor atmosphere. We know that he didn't jail with the team in the car. We know it was not mentally where he wanted to be. And he was struggling there.

So he needs a bit of time to readjust and redevelop. So the fact that seven races in, Helmut Marco's going, come on, sunshine, you're out of here, getting out. That is savage. That is less time than Nick DeVries had. You know, that is less time than what Liam Larson had to prepare the second half of the season. We've seen drivers into RB that have had more time than that as well. And my RB, I mean Red Bull in terms of Albon and Gasly.

They got more time even with arguably worse form. It's a bizarre conversation to be having, especially when they aren't technically in charge of that team. But all in all, the team is meant to be a junior program. The team is meant to be there for developmental drivers. And we did question why Ricardo was going into that seat in the first place, if not to just take the position off Checo. It's just bizarre that they're having this internal battle externally, in front of everyone. I am really quite surprised just how far it's come that Horner and Helmut have fallen out to this degree

that they're having to have this conversation in the press. It would have been quite a valuable time as well to actually have a unified force by a couple of employees because of everything else that's happening. I know it's not good news for Daniel Ricardo, obviously, but they could have, they had the choice to present something of a united front and they've decided not to, which is, that's the baffling thing for me. I think it's fine to have these disagreements behind the scenes. And it makes sense as well based on Christian Horner's role within the organisation and

Helmut Marco's role in that Christian Horner has been team principal when Daniel Ricardo was at Red Bull. He's seen what he can do. He was there for all of his wins. And he was the team principal almost winning. alongside him, whereas Helmut Marco is very much looking at, can my legacy be defined by the next Vestappen? Can I find someone else? He's in charge of that junior program. Can we find the next great driver in our junior program? And he's looking at Ricardo as a as an opportunity

or a missed opportunity for someone else to be in the car. So I understand why they're at different sides of the argument. But to your point, it's important. It's important. public. And honestly, have Red Bull and the senior people agreed on anything externally this year? It's really baffling the way they are. It's like they're going for a mucky divorce. And we are the children and we're watching it in playing sight at the moment. We are the children. We are the children. Yes, they are having a row in front of everyone and we have to sit there and watch them, you know, throw the bag sheets out the car. You know, they're screaming and shouting on the driveway, this should be done amicably in a business forward way behind closed doors.

And it's okay, like you said, for Horner to say, my interests are with the main team. And if Checo isn't performing, I need a driver ready to go. I understand that argument. Makes total sense to me. Fine. I get it. Helmets are there going, this is a junior team. We should be developing our talent.

And that's where my expertise is. Again, makes total sense. Both sides make sense. You might bite on that. But the fact they clearly don't get along or don't see eye to eye to the point where they can't just have this conversation over. a table is really worrying, I think, more so than the likes of certain high team members leaving after along the years of being there. But the fact that these two remaining stalwarts of Red Bull

can't have an amicable conversation and come to a fair decision behind closed doors, tells me that all is really not well at the moment in the Red Bull camp. Is Christian Horner trying to wash his hands of this? Because obviously Red Bull have had some criticism from us and from others about how this was handled, particularly in relation to Daniel Ricardo, everyone knew it was his final race, but no one was allowed to actually say it aloud. And Red Bull are getting some criticism for that. Is this Christian Horner trying to say, hey, look, you can thank me for Ricardo having the time that he did.

If it was down to someone else, he'd have been out the car ages ago. So you know what, I'm not the bad guy here. Is there an element of that? Christian Horner is a great word, Smith. He's so good at the public game. He's very good playing with PR. And let's face it, if you remove the scandal that has kind of tarnished a little bit of that, he's so good at bending and altering and changing perceptions and playing a certain role in Formula One.

And this is a perfect scenario for him. He gets to say, Daniel Ricardo, who everyone loves, everyone adores Daniel Ricardo. We on this show, I know he'd say funny things about him what being as good as he was, but we bloody adore the guy. And Christian Horner is quite, I mean, it makes sense to. He's jumping on the bandwagon of this moment where people are going, we love Daniel you've not treating him rightly and Chris has gone this is a chance for me to get some good favour here I'm going to put my hands up and go

hey I kept him around longer I'm the one that supports Daniel Riccardo I'm giving him all the time I can I'm fighting it's caught a tooth and nail he's the guy I wanted it's an easy wing it is the easiest wing going because he's not upset in Checo because he never swapped Checo out but he's not upset in Daniel Ricardo either the only person who's upset his helmet Marco and publicly no one cares if you upset Helmut Marco as brutal as that sounds that is is the truth of the matter. Yeah, I think there is, there is certainly an element of Christian Horner, I think, being backed

into a corner because it seems like from the outside, obviously we're not privy to a lot of conversations internally at Red Bull or indeed any conversations. But it does seem like Christian Horner is often fighting one corner by himself, whereas the likes, and he's losing allies, you know, Adrian Newe is obviously off. There are a lot of other senior guys who have Christian Horner to thank at least somewhat for the careers that they've had. And it's being left to Yosfer Stappan and Helmut Marco are often not on the same side as Christian Horner. It does feel like Daniel Ricardo was, I don't know, it was his responsibility almost. He needed a win for Ricardo for him to claim. And I think maybe this was a case of holding on and holding on and hoping that

something was going to turn around. And then Christian Horner eventually having to almost accept defeat that Ricardo couldn't get back to the driver that he once was. But, yeah, again, it's just, this all coming out publicly is probably the most bizarre thing in the world because you're kidding yourself if you don't think that the likes of Andrea Stella and Zach Brown don't have disagreements. Like, they absolutely do. But can you name one instance where publicly they have been at each other's throats are about it? No, because they don't allow it.

Yeah, maybe the same team. Vowals and Toto Wolf and they were both at Mosegis would have had these discussions that gone, well, I think X, or when they brought on George Russell, or when they brought on Bottas, they would have been conversations of, oh, I don't know if he's the right guy, and someone might have gone, I think he's brilliant. And they will have been those conversations about who they should have brought in. Did we hear a word of it outside of that? No, never utter a word.

So the fact that we're getting this dirty laundry aired out in front of us, it's a sign of the Times for Red Bull. They really are going through it at the moment. In terms of Helmut Marko's perspective on this, I have to say, I don't agree with it, but I can understand it because the whole Daniel Ricardo experiment was based on can he become what he once was. And we have seen instances at least this season where rookie drivers have shone straight away. Like not really any delay between them coming into the sport and showing at least potential of what they can do. They're not the finished product, but Colopinto race two was impressing.

Olli Behrman, race one, in Saudi Arabia, without all the practice sessions, did a good job. And I can understand Helmut Marco looking at those two instances and indeed Liam Lawson from a year ago and saying, why should we be giving time to someone who has been an F1 for not far off 15 years? Maybe we can accept some time to get back to what he once was. But equally, he's had all this time in 2023. he's now had races in 2024. I think Barcelona would have been too early, in my opinion. But I can understand the viewpoint from his side.

I think that's what is confusing me the most about this whole scenario. We know that they're a CISC team, right? Everyone is aware that as much as Visa Cashup is changing its game and its identity, they're owned by the Red Bull family. They are a CISCA team of Red Bull. We see it all the time. The identity of that team feels muddied. It feels unsure, uncertain.

in both internally and externally. They came out at the start of the year, remember, we're going to get some top fives. We're moving away from being a junior team for Red Bull. We want to be our own team. We want to be competitive. And then six, yeah, the joke of the year, six and nine months later,

we're back here where we've had, you know, Daniel Ricardo stealing the fastest lap off McLaren. We've had drivers being turned around. They're having this whole conversation publicly where RB's team principle isn't involved in the lineup whatsoever. The worst part being, Yuki-Sungoda not being mentioned in the slightest when it comes to any opportunity for maybe replacing Shekka, who has more than proved himself this year.

So I think they need to work out. And Helmut needs to be a part of this, I'm sure. What is that team for? What is the defining purpose in Formula One for this RB team? Are they going to be a separate team? If so, having an experienced driver like Daniel Ricardo at the start of the year before we know what his form was makes sense to me. You know, I get that. I understand that.

But if they are purely for developmental purposes, Ricardo should never have been considered for that scene, realistically. So it is a tricky battle. Both points make sense. But I think the issue is coming from, no one really understands what R.B. are meant to be doing in the sport. And therefore, they're having a lot of mixed opinions on what is right for the team moving forward. There's no defined projects there. And I think the Ricardo, I've said before on the podcast, I was fine with this experiment of Daniel Ricardo coming back to the team.

I was fine with them giving that a go. And I don't mind that they've made the move now. My instinct is if he doesn't get injured last year, they make this move earlier. Because 2023 was obviously quite fragmented from Ricardo's side in that he had two races in the car, then gets injured, and then has a spell out. And then I think there's the last five races of the year.

And then obviously comes back for 2024. I think if he doesn't have that gap in between, I think they would have had less patience with him this year and maybe made the decision. I'm not sure quite as early as Barcelona, but maybe the summer break instead of now. Yeah, I also think, realistically, he got lucky in the situation that Nick DeVries wasn't very good.

Because if Nick DeVries was as good as Yuki Senoda, and they were both delivering solid performances, as Sunoga dig for the majority of last year, Ricardo never would have got a sniff anyway. They wouldn't have got regular DeVries halfway through the year if he wasn't the same level of Sunoda, I don't think, unless Christian Horner really put his foot down and said, I want Ricardo in one of these cars.

And in that case, you sit there and go, well, Cheko isn't performing at this point anyway. Put him in the Red Bull if you think he's got that much promise. He was the beneficiary of a bad situation for someone else, then broke his hand. And realistically, if they stuck by what the identity of RBBs are cash app, or whatever we're calling it, is, Lawson should have gone in from day one,

because that's the whole point, right? He's a F2 driver. He's a, you know, super formula. driver, previous DTM driver, his time was ready, he should have gone in straight away. They should not have really been having any faffing around with Ricardo. But again, I understand the reasons why Ricardo got the shout. It is interesting to try and pinpoint exactly where all this starts from, but certainly looking at the Nick DeVries higher.

I think the longer it goes on, the worst that decision looks, because, and we said it at the time that, you know, Nick DeVries had the opportunity to be an okay driver in F1. He didn't, but he didn't end up that way. but he could have been. I think the issue was, obviously, he was much older than what the average rookie would have been in that seat.

And I think the more that time goes on, the more you think they should have just got with Lawson from the start of that year or Owasa or someone else. And you don't even get this whole situation. And Lawson is then given a lot more time. But it is interesting. One other comment I did just want to pick up on

from Helmut Marco regarding Daniel Ricardo was that he felt that Daniel Ricardo had lost his killer instinct. Do you agree with that? It's hard to measure, I think. When you're in a car as bad as that R.B., and let's face it, it's barely been good enough to scrape points on a regular basis.

When they have got points, it's either through a very good drive or it's been through a little bit of luck. It's hard to show a killer instinct when you've barely got a vehicle underneath you that can pull off a great overtake, that can run close enough to cars in front of you that can actually be overtaken.

You know, you're fighting against, to like sort of a struggling Alpine or you're better than a salber. You know, you're better... Well done. Woo! Killer instincts. Yeah, what am I killing? A bloody fly on the floor that's lost its wings.

That's kind of how bad those cars are. That's fair. It's actually like putting your foot on it and going, well, it was already dying. So I just, I made it less painful for it. Like a little housefly that's trying to stay alive for another hour. I'll put you out your misery. That's what it is.

That's really what it is. It's not like he was, you know, in that one race in Miami, where he was defending against Ferrari. Yeah, he was doing a brilliant job. That is the exception. The car itself is, it's not like that car could do that every Grand Prix. It's not like if he outgrove that car every Grand Prix, he would be fighting for fifth, six, seventh.

No, never going to happen realistically. The best he was ever going to get maybe on a good day was a 10th place, and that's a really good day. So I feel like it's harsh to say that Ricardo has properly lost his killer instinct, when he spent the entire period of this experiment in a car that was probably no better than the eighth fastest car going. at push seventh on its real best day. So I feel sorry for Daniel Ricardo.

If you suck him in the Red Bull for half this season and see where he'd finish, then I'd be interested to know. That would be more of a fair example on the killer instinct comment. I don't want to put Ricardo down anymore than he really needs to. He's really lost his seat this season. I agree with you.

This hasn't worked, but I don't think the reason is because he's lost his killer instinct. And mainly to your points, because I know Helmut Marco's sort of referenced his old late-breaking trademark days back in Red Bull, and how good he was at those daring overtakes that maybe we haven't seen from him in recent times. But that Red Bull was far more capable of making those overtakes than the R.B. Cashap Visa Toro Rosso that he's got nowadays. It's not the same situation. How many times have we seen Yuki Sonoda make incredibly

daring overtakes? Not that often. And even if you go back to Daniel Ricardo before he went to Red Bull when he was in Toro Rosso. He did well at Toro or so. Don't get me wrong. But can anyone point to like a load of daring overtakes he made in that car? Not really. Like it wasn't until he got a far better car that he was able to showcase that. So yes, it hasn't worked. But I don't think the killer instinct is the reason. There have been multiple. And it's difficult to diagnose exactly what it's been. Like sometimes it's F1 drivers age differently. and some can stay at their peak until their 40s, some don't. Maybe it's just this era of car.

We've seen that with other drivers as well. It's difficult to know exactly what the reason is. Killer instinct, though, I don't think it's that. Do you think if Liam Lawson goes in from the moment Ricardo went in, so remove Ricardo from the equation completely and Liam Lawson gets the DeVries drive, but Liam Lawson's form is exactly the same as Ricardo's form has been, do you think he's out of a seat right now? No.

Maybe at the end of this season. expectations are higher because it's Ricardo? I think it's probably not expectations and it's more the stage of their careers that they're at. So we've seen actually, and I know Red Bull and Alfa Tauri, whatever they're called now, don't have a reputation for patience.

But equally with Yuki Sunoda, they've been relatively patient. Five years in now? Yeah, and he has been better this season and last season than he was in his first couple of years. But they did give him a third year where I was unsure whether they would. Liam Lawson right now,

if he'd been in the seat, you know, from the middle of last season, would have had just over a year. I think they would have been at least patient enough to give him the full of this full season and then maybe reassessed going into 2025. I think it's just based on Daniel Ricardo, him having more experience and thinking,

you know, the development curve isn't going to be the same as what it is with Lawson. Yeah, I suppose you'd assume he would be starting. starting off at a higher point, right? And it will be continuous rather than an upward curve. I think so. Let's take our first break on this episode. On the other side, we're focusing on Ferrari.

Come back, everyone. Ferrari team principal, Fred Vassar, has revealed the small upgrade for the car at the upcoming United States GP will be the team's last of the season. So, of course, the Ferrari team do remain something of an outsider for the Constructors Championship. points separating McLaren and Ferrari at the moment. Fred Fester then revealed the focus is primarily on next year's machinery following this Austin update.

He said, we all know that we already started the development of the next car and we try to do our best, have small upgrades at the next race. I think it will probably be the last one for everybody. That will be true for us, but I think it will be true for the other teams too. Now, it's so tight overall in the last four or five, six races. is if you have a look on the grid, every single bit can make a difference. So it does sound like final upgrade of the season at Austin for Ferrari. McCarran have opened up a bit of a gap in recent times,

but equally Ferrari have been there or thereabouts. Of course, they won at Monza. Will this give them a chance to compete with McLaren until the end of the year? I think it is extraordinarily close, as Fred Vassir said. It really is a matter of hundreds, not tense. And I know Formula One, the gaps that we see across the entire grid is minuscule in comparison to any other form of sport. You know, the expression always rings true, a second is a lifetime in Formula One. And that is so true.

You look at some qualifying performances throughout the season where Poll is being X time and the 16th place cutoff zone for Q1 has been 0.98 or something like that, right? Any anywhere else in the world, that is nothing, literally nothing. But Formula One, an age. So if you could bring an upgrade where Ferrari are, say, 0.1 off in qualifying, and they bring that upgrade, and that brings that down to 0.03 in qualifying. And that gives them the extra little space they need to go on and maybe win races or secure double podiums. It's worth doing. It's worth doing, especially if these upgrades, these little upgrades,

are able to directly then impact the development of the 2025 car with experiments, maybe they're trialing something a little bit new, especially in Ferrari's position. they kind of don't have anything to lose here. If they sit there and go, actually, that's worked really well. We could take the evidence, we take the analysis, put it on to 2025. It's so close. We need to get ahead. Now's the time to do that.

Why not do it? If it goes wrong for them, oh, well, we were already third in the constructors at this point. LeCleu was never going to go on to win the drivers at this point. There just isn't the space in the points for him to do so. So you know what? We've learned that that upgrade hasn't worked for X, Y, and Z reasons, and we can develop a different way for 2025. I think anyone down to Mercedes right now,

you either have to go for make or break. You could get so far ahead because 2025 is looking so close that you really could win the first four or five Grand Prix. Give yourself that little leg up, as Max Verstappen has done in the Drivers' Championship this season. It can make all the difference come the end of the year that if you just get that edge on your competitors, it makes sense to try something new, be experimental, give it a go.

I think Ferrari and Mercedes especially, have so little to lose by doing something bold and seeing if it could work for 2025 feels like a big of a no-brainer for me. Zero Sipods. How about that, Miss ladies? Yeah, I think maybe this has the opportunity to pull them level or maybe even get them slightly ahead.

I'm not too sure. We've referenced this multiple times on the podcast throughout the year. The upgrades have been hit and miss so far this year. We're talking about Alpine upgrades, actually, in the next segment. and Oliver Oaks as a spoiler, does say very much the same thing,

that it's difficult to be able to count on upgrades reliably this year and how much of an impact they will have. And even if they will have an impact, because some of them have had a negative impact on the cars. So Ferrari, you've had both. We've seen Ferrari when they went to Monza. Worked pretty well. They won that race.

So they've had upgrades that have worked well. equally the Imola upgrade, I maintain. They, that might be the reason they don't win the Constructors' Championships this year. I think that's cost them silverware. Quite possibly, or at least a chance for it. So yeah, it's difficult to know exactly how much of an impact this will have. They should keep expectations somewhat reasonable because it is tough to see them really leapfrogging McLaren. But yeah, I, I.

I think there's at least a chance that this upgrade, if it works, they could be competitive for the last six races of the year. Well, you said in our three words for each team, right? Was it two of the last six a section or something like, right, right? You said win two of the last six. And if these upgrades get them across and it's competitive, sure. I just think you're a little bit silly. Unless you're Red Bull or McLaren and you will solidify actual title chances,

I don't think risk it. You know, like just go bold for the aim of gaining for 2025, rather than try to solidify a title right here right now. Unless you're in the no pun intended driving seat to take home that championship. Do you think it's the correct upgrade approach, given where they are right now? Yeah, I do.

I think it's surprisingly sensible. I think Fred Vassern knows what he's doing when it comes to this developmental cycle. Six races is enough time to see how things are working and apply either a new developmental cycle into the new year or to focus on the areas that have become weak. And we've got a large array of tracks coming, right? You've got a lot of characteristics that you can look through coming up for the rest of the season.

You've got Texas with that, the famous S is right in sector one. That is great for aerodynamic understanding, how the chassis responds. And yet you've got heavy straight lines on the street circuit of Las Vegas. You've got classic tracks in Brazil. There really is a whole sequence of areas that you can understand where the car can be developed for. So stop now, right before the end of the season, assess and then develop appropriately. for 2025. To me, as someone who is not particularly logical, that feels quite logical.

I'm unconvinced just based on I don't know whether these upgrades are contributing to next year or whether they're taking away from next year. And I think the answer to that question determines whether this is a sensible approach or not, because I do completely understand his point about how close things are and how it has jumped up and down the order. We've had, we've had seven different winners from three different teams. It should be eight. Yeah, it should be eight. So four different teams.

And we've had six different winners in the last ten races. It has been very competitive where we have seen quite substantial changes in the order, at least at the top of the championship. But I think that there is at least a little bit of a risk that Ferrari are trying to accomplish two things and don't accomplish either. So option one is to go all out this season and try and claim that Constructors title. It's an outside shot for sure, 75 points between themselves and McLaren. But they have the opportunity to try and go all out with that, see if they can get it

and see if they can pit McLaren and Red Bull to the post. And then I think the other option is to say, you know what? Red Bull probably still think there's a chance they can win it. McLaren, of course, think they can win it. maybe I'll just leave those two teams to duel out and we'll just quietly on the side just focus on 2025. As Fred Vassur says,

I'm a little bit worried that this upgrade might not have the impact to do the first thing, but might also take away from the second thing. But again, it's completely dependent on how this impacts next year. Which I totally understand the point that you're making. I think if this was, if we were in the 2025 season right now, I'd really agree with your worry.

But because nothing is changing between this season next season, pretty much all upgrades are directly comparable or transferable. You would think. So this is why I brought up my earlier point of, they can be risky because they have nothing to lose. If they stay in third, if this upgrade doesn't work and they're staying third, but that means we get to January and they go, that didn't perform. We need to go the other direction.

And they've got the knowledge. They've got the real hand knowledge right now. And they can go all guns blazing for the final season of this current regulation. And that does set them up to win the title. To me, that's worth it. That's a risk worth taking. because they're not leading anything right now anyway. So if we get to the end of the season and they don't win anything,

well, we go, well, they weren't there anyway. They haven't thrown it away at that point. And that's the difference for me. But if we were going into 2026 and the chance was getting a developmental boost ahead of everyone else for a whole new regulation change or try and catch second and third and jump them both in six races, that's a heavy risk for what could be a very small reward in comparison to the next five years.

So that's why I think it's worth doing now. next season, if we have the same conversation, I think you're a fool. Yeah. You feel. I think I'm not sure how much Ferrari will actually care about this. But of course, we've got Ferrari and I guess you can throw Williams in this as well. But Ferrari and McLaren have been two sleeping giants of F1 for so long. And I think for really since the beginning of this hybrid era,

it's always seemed like Ferrari would have the best chance to win the Constructors' championship first of those two teams. It might sting a bit that is probably not going to be them and it's going to be McLaren who went there really long wait for a constructors championship. We're still waiting Ferrari. Come on. Guys, what, 18 seasons it'll be? Since they won a drivers and even longer since they're only 20 years since they're on

constructors. Yeah, yeah, you have to go all the way back. Kimmy Reichenen. It's a long old time. We were but boys. We were but boys. I have to say, like, And we don't bring up betting or odds very often on this podcast.

I did see Ferrari at 28 to 1 to win the Constructious Championship this year. I don't think they'll do it, but I don't mind that. You could have stuck a fiver on there, couldn't you? Yeah, 28 to 1. Do you want a joke about a fun of fact? Go on. I don't understand how betting odds work. So put a pound on, you get 28 back.

So, you know, it's... But how can I come up with the numbers? It's just in the air. nothing about it. It's just random. Not random, but you know what I mean? There's no proper sense to it. Oh, there must. Well, if there was no sense to it, you wouldn't have profitable betting companies. That's very true, but that's, there's a lot of advanced that. Well, I mean, less than F1, I think, but a lot of, uh, advanced stats. Betting in Formula One is not a common combination, is it? No, and I don't hear a lot about it. No, it's certainly more, I understand it as well, because

I don't know, F1 can be incredibly luck orientated and you don't, And so much is hidden behind the scenes and so much as car dependent rather than private. It's not like boxing or something like that, right? Where you can see these two people pissing against each other and you know their stats and their history and their buildup, but it's entirely human led. Yeah, Formula One is a tricky one. Indeed. One other point on Ferrari, it does seem as if their porpoising, bumping issues have gone. Fred Viser alluded to that.

How important could that be for next year's championship? because this is an issue that's really plagued them throughout a good part of this year. I actually heard Lewis Hamilton scream a sigh of relief. Yeah. He's celebrating more than when he won the championship. Seven titles on my back not hurting. I'd like my back to work, please.

That's what he was crying about after Silverstone. I'm sorry, my back, my poor back. And now he's finally going to be like a walk after a Grand Prix. Thank God for that. No, this is crucial because, These are ground effect cars in this current regulation set that we're on. And the air pressure and the airflow that runs under the car is so crucial to maintaining downforce, to maintaining speed, not bottoming out as well is crucial because you allow you to hit consistent top speed,

allows you to follow closely. There are so many integral parts to ensure that your airflow under the car is maintained at a consistent rate to make sure that all your other parts that are on the car are also delivering in their optimal way. It cannot be understating enough, or should I say overstating enough, how crucial it is that the car not porpoising is essentially the foundation you need to build a strong car in its current regulation. So if Ferrari have a stable base and it's not fluxing and hitting the floor and jumping around, that is a fantastic jumping off point.

And you see how well Mercedes have done since they stop their severe porpoising. I'm not saying that they've gone on to win titles, but they've definitely got to better. This has been by far their best year so far in this new regulations. And it's the first year, I think they've properly cracked not to have a lot of it. porpoising regularly on the car. So yeah, essential, crucial, a brilliant thing to get over for Ferrari. Yeah, I agree. It's so important because we often see that just one major design floor can massively cost the team. And you can you can bring upgrades to try and work around it and make the best of the situation. But until you really get to the root of an issue like this and

and solve it in full, you're probably limiting yourself on what can be achieved for your team. I know I joked about the side pod, zero side pod design for Mercedes earlier on. But again, like, they tried to work around that and there was just no point because whilst they could make the odd gain here and there, there was just one massive issue that was holding them back. If this is gone and gone for good, that bodes pretty well for next season, I think. Yeah, both Charlotte Clare and Lewis Hamilton, I think, drive very much in the same way. They like to drive aggressively in a very safe car, a car they feel they have total control over. And otherwise, they both overdrive the car, and I think they both struggle with pace.

So if you're going to give them a really stable base to essentially have a thrash the car around and it won't step out on them, that's a successful opportunity, a little recipe for success for Ferrari. it's shit. Well after the break we are staying on the topic of upgrades but we're shifting to alpine. It's our weekly alpine segment. Damn right. The one that was supposed to be on Wednesday's episode and then they've decided to do something else. Alpine replacing Alpine news is the most Alpine thing I've ever heard. Welcome back everyone everyone's favorite team principal now, Oliver Oaks, because he believes Alpine has more performance to show at the end of the current season having been out of sync with its rivals on development. He said, we know between now and the end of

the year, we have got some performance coming. After Spar and Zamvort, you hope you can survive. This run of races were sort of what you had, but I think actually what you're seeing were a little bit out of sync. We were late bringing what we brought from some of the beginning of the season, and then you end up a bit out of sync when others have brought stuff. I hope between now and the end of the year, we can at least show we've got some performance to come. Some people have brought big steps this year. brought some that haven't worked, we've just got to actually see when we bring it, how it performs. So as referenced earlier, he's maybe being a bit cautious about, we do have some updates coming, but, you know, maybe they work, maybe they don't. Who knows?

The new gaming F1. Yeah, I know, right. Do you have any confidence in Alpine that they will show something? No, and I think this developmental plan also doesn't make sense to me. Unlike Ferrari, who are, you know, able to have a massive risk versus reward moment where they could go on to win a title if they get one thing correct. The gap is that small. Alpine, you're the ninth fastest car. So developing for the end of a season, to me, doesn't make sense. If this developmental period that they're going through was to bring stability, it was to

ensure that actually it sets them up for 2026, it helps them with those regulations. They're looking for a new age of success. They're like to say, fair play, Oli Oaks. You've got some cracking episodes coming. sorry if you don't understand what Hollyoaks is. Does anyone? Is it still going? Probably.

You know, you've got some cracking moments to come and it makes sense to set yourself up for 2076, 27, 28, 29 because you're so far behind. Look what Haast were able to do. I know that's a bizarre example because they've not exactly gone to mass success, but Haast started well, fell backwards into nothingness,

did not understand the regulations or the tyres or how the car was working. They took that year out. which was a disaster, but actually, two years later, they're now regularly scoring points. They've got a team that makes sense. They've got a team principle that seems to very much understand

the fundamentals of the car, and the drivers are having successful races, much more than yours, Alpine, much more than yours have been for a while now. And look where you were battling two, three years ago, with McLaren. You get it right in the right moment, and you could have been fighting for a construction.

Yeah, amazing. Ben's doing the scales, if you can't see, if you're watching the video. Yeah. Visual reference, that one, apologies. Yeah, as Alpine got heavy, all they did was look at a push McLaren through the bloody ceiling. Stop trying to gain short-term wings. I don't understand the need to develop unless Olli is going to come out and say,

actually, we need to get this right in order to get our foundation in order to make sure that 2026 is a success. In that case, I understand it, this makes sense. But if you'll just try to gain a momentary piece of performance to keep shareholders happy or to keep Pierre Gassily happy, it's not worth it. It is not worth it. Look for 2026 and actually have a long-term plan of actual development that is going to see you move up the table, not a one-off. I know someone who would be quite happy about upgrades happening this year. Estabana Ockon, he might be the only one though. Yeah, yeah. Woo-hoo. Thanks, guys. I'm going to take him a run. We should absolutely focus on this season and this season only. I'm confident of that. Cheers, Esteban. I love that. Offie,

the door, if you go. You know what? I'm going to say quite a bold statement here. It is tough to have any confidence in Alpine. Oh, I didn't see that one coming. Yeah. My evidence, if I can present it, is them.

They are the evidence. They are all the evidence. Yes, they have struggled a lot in recent races. But if they do have some upgrades where others don't, and I think you've very rightfully laid out why it's maybe not a good idea because even if it does see them gain a position or two,

so what? Like, does it really matter? I think they can potentially be a fact of, for points again. They were, at least earlier in the season, not that bad in that they were

at least challenging to be the fifth best team. Like they were, a few races at least. Them and Al, them and Aster, Martin weren't that far off each other. And it didn't last very long, obviously, but it was a few races where you couldn't separate them

by much. And Gasley and Ockon were getting some Q3 appearances. They were, you know, they've had six Q3 appearances between them so far this year. They've had, there were five out of six races at one point where they did at least one of them scored a point. So they had a good run. And then obviously, as Mr. Oaks testifies do here, the last few races have been. pretty difficult for them.

So I think there is a scenario where that midfield has been so close. And the order's been tough to predict. We've seen Williams and RB have basically just switched. Hasse, as you say, have been to your three-word summary, hit and miss, like that they were pretty good at one point, not very good at another, seemed to be all right again. Aston Martin had kind of just been there throughout the whole year. But it has just changed a lot.

It's been a bit of a jumble in that midfield. it wouldn't surprise me if Alpine can get some upgrades to work and be a little bit more competitive but it does go back to the point of so what? Just get it right once for the new season and you can probably jump the lot of them

if you do something correctly once in a good big proper update to where they were. Yeah, proper Sunday roast update everything on one plate, served on one day, take it as you as you want, cover it in gravy and enjoy it all in one go

rather than I don't want me roast potato and then a week later, I'll have my peas, and then a week later, I'll have some carrots. That's not nice. I'll enjoy it as I eat it, but now I'll go, I would like the rest of the meal to come, actually. You know, just give it all to me at the start of the season.

New Year's Day, I'll have a roast dinner, and off I go. If each team was a part of a roast dinner, what would each team be? That's a different episode entirely. New game. Formula roast. I don't even know what Alpine would be. Just a burnt sauce. I don't want it.

Turkey, like just. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. The driest thing known to mankind. Sal Barra, the toaster that broke when I was trying to do the Christmas breakfast. Yeah, I just left against packaging in the corner. Oh, man.

Yeah, I think you're probably right that. That might be another episode. We'll move on to something else, which is the F1 rookie race that was scheduled to take place at the end of this year has now been postponed until 2025. It was supposed to be a one-off,

non-championship race, several F1 team bosses indicated support for the idea last month and the tentative plan involved each team entering a single car for one rookie driver in a postseason sprint race following the end of year test at the Asmarina circuit in Abu Dhabi. The F1 Commission, though, has agreed to postpone the plan citing a shortage of time between now and the end of the season. Is this understandable?

Yeah, I can understand the reasoning behind it. It feels like a not a hugely discussed topic. And it feels like they have kind of kept it under the radar a little bit. And I think that's because the sprint races that we currently have in Formula One, in theory, provide an immediate platform for rookie drivers to actually have regular races involved. And I don't think they want the cross-talking conversation there, that sprint races could be a completely separate formula that allow 10 cars to race all at once by drivers who have never featuring Formula One.

and they could get plenty of experience driving around in a Formula One car and appropriate time in front of an audience. And here you've tried to shoehorning essentially another Grand Prix that no one's going to pay to watch, no one's going to be able to really spectate on and it's going to cost more money in time for another team after the longest season we've ever had in Formula One, it feels like it was always leading to a negative conclusion.

The idea to give rookies more race time in a Formula One car makes total sense to me. I think that in theory is a brilliant concept. I'm all for it. But I do think there are better ways to do it. And this does feel like it's been chucked together and they've gone, actually, it's not going to play out this year.

So we're just not going to get it done. It's a shame. It is a shame because it would be nice to get them more experience. But it just feels like they've tried to stick it on the end of something that is already incredibly difficult, tiresome, money consuming. It was never going to play out. It's never going to be a priority.

Yeah, I am fully aware that we could be in a position here of slating the FIA. complete, slating F1 and the FIA completely on this, whilst we sit in our chairs on our podcast, not having to deal with any of the consequences of the logistics. Oh, look at us. Our chair warriors. They should be able to do that simply, honestly.

Yeah, we don't have to deal with any of the logistics. And it's not an easy thing to put together. I will fully accept it. It is not an easy thing to put together. Because as soon as you open up to a racing situation, you have to treat it like any other race on the calendar from a safety perspective. You cannot cut corners because no one's at the track or, I don't know, it's not a championship race. Like you cannot cut corners when it comes to safety.

Everything has to be treated the same way. So I do understand this would have been tricky to put together. It is still two months away. And this is a big organi-F-1, big organisation. Oh, really? They have resources. I will say that. I thought it was just being silly him. Could you imagine?

I would have had a little bit more sympathy if it was a smaller organisation or a smaller series trying to do that, but it is F1. This is the same series that 2020 is a good example. 2020 they basically just had to not make something up, but they had to walk together a calendar. Exactly. They had to pretty last minute go,

all right, we need something for 2020. Here we go. I am convinced that if F1 really wanted this to happen, like really, really wanted it to happen, they could have made it happen. I think they could have to televise it. I think it's a discount price tickets for the track. You know, maybe it doesn't have to happen at Abu Dhabi. Maybe it happens at Silverstone or something else because maybe you could bring a F1 race to an old track that goes, we'll take it. We're quiet this time of year.

We love it. There's loads of options. And I imagine it's a good way to maybe put new people across the team in to see their proving ground. You know, maybe a new team race engineer or something like that who's up and coming. You could do a lot with it. And I just feel like they've gone, oh, we ain't going enough to say. I put it in the big.

Yeah. It's not exactly been a surprise either. Like this has been spoken about for a little while now. And like I said, it was pretty much unanimously agreed last month. So that's a good amount of time between then and the end of the season to put this together. So like I say,

I think if they, with all of their resources, all of their money, if they wanted this to happen, they could have made this happen. Instead they're postponing it. And maybe there is something in them wanted to manage what this might open up to. If it's a standalone event and nobody wants it to be anything more than a standalone event, that's fine. But maybe there is a danger that people see this and go, yeah, that's not a bad idea.

Maybe we can do more of these. Maybe it can open it up to this. And F1, I think at that point might have said, we're not ready for that. So maybe they're spending the next year thinking about what the consequences of this action could be. And if those unfold, we're a bit more ready to deal with whatever that is. Maybe. A little way that I think this might be able to work more seamlessly is actually, instead of doing it at the end of the season, you do it at the start of the season as one of the final days of preseason testing.

And they essentially get to use the new car after the two or three days, whatever it is that we're testing for. And they get to have a 30 lap race around whatever track we're going testing. at you know to me that's a nice way for them to get more race data it makes sense you treat it as a race but at the same time you use the analytics behind it and that way it seamlessly fits into another day that already exists and you gain something from it yeah and i think as well with this post abu-dabby test of course it will happen or it would have happened um i can't remember the exact date of the last race of the season but early december or late november whenever it is

well for something of december this would have happened so at that point all the decisions for next year are made, drivers, like in terms of who's in the seats. So it wouldn't have impacted anything there. And at least at the beginning of the season, you probably haven't made all the decisions for unless you've got multi-year contracts with some teams and drivers do. But if you've got anyone's contract who's expiring at the end of that season, then that information is arguably more helpful from a pure driver perspective to the teams than it would have been in December. So there is that. the team. The team gets a proper benefit, not just the rookie driver, I'm sure. But we've discussed this enough. We know so many ways that rookies have more involvement and they just don't seem to be

willing to look at those examples. Yes, quite possibly. Right, let's take our final break on this episode on the other side with playing fill in the blank. Now we see, does Ben have the theme for fill in the blank? Here we go, because I can't remember how it goes well enough to sing it live. There's actually a character count on the soundboard, which means for some of longer named games. I can't fit the full title in. So this is the theme for Fitibu. What is F1, Alphabeti?

Good question. No, Alphabeti fits, just. Alphabet does fit. I'm actually going to have it. So we've got dotted for Driver of the Day, obviously, and we're dotted. That's classic abbreviation. Put a B, cut the brakes. But yes, fill in the blank.

Are you ready, Sam? I'm ready and bring on the beauty of this soundtrack. Here it is. That is the worst one we've ever done. Who's Phil? That is so, so bad. Why is there a cockerel? I can just hear something.

Hang on. That's Kirsty resigning. Okay. Oh, that is really atrocious. It is. But the game is at least a little bit better. fill in the blank. So we've got three sentences

and we'll have to fill in the blank with whatever we think goes there. So the first one is this. The driver most in need of a strong finish to the season is blank. I actually am going with Sergio Perez for this. I think as much as he has a multi-year deal sign

at Red Bull, a contract at Red Ball is as good as, you know, a lump of cheese in the sun. We heard Christian Horner earlier saying that Daniel Ricardo should have been there to pick up the pieces if Perez didn't perform, right? And it feels like they would have swapped him had Daniel Ricardo been performing. If Daniel Ricardo was having the drive of his life,

they would have swapped them over, I think. There's no doubt about it. So for me, he's going to nail this last six. And if someone like Lawson comes in and absolutely body to Yuki Sanoda and has a great time, I do genuinely think they wouldn't say no straight away

to putting Lawson in Red Bull. Interesting. I've also gone with the Red Bull family. I've gone with Yuki Sonoda. Interesting. So I think at the moment, his position in the team is a very odd one because if you think of Red Bull and R.B., what's happening? So Daniel Ricardo's just gone. Liam Lawson's just come in. We've got Max Verstappen and Toto Wool flirting with one another. Max Verstappen and Aston Martin flirting with one another Vastappan's contract up at the end of the season Adrian Nui is going

Jonathan Wheatley's going Sergio Perez as you've just referenced isn't very secure in his seat and I think Yuki Sunoda might be the only constant at the tick he's just there like alright I'll keep doing my job done literally never gets mentioned anything well yeah you referenced that earlier on

and he's just kind of the only one piece at the moment that there's not some drama going on and he's just there sort of plugging away just doing it, both the positive and the negative, I suppose. He's kept his head, kept his head down, but also he deserves to be spoken about as an option for things. Sure. Unless Liam Lawson comes in and does a very good job against him.

But that's why I think he's maybe the most under pressure because he's done such a, he's done a very good job against Daniel Ricardo. But we saw versus Lawson last year, it's pretty close. There wasn't much in it. I know Sonona had some rotten luck when Lawson was in the car last year. year. So there wasn't as many reference points as we thought we might get between the two drivers. But I remember the Japanese Grand Prix where I think Sonoda finished 10th and Lawson finished 11th, but they were separated by maybe like a second at the flag. They were very competitive at one another last year. I think Sonoda's value to the team drops a lot if Lawson comes in and then

suddenly he's not the next man up. Yeah. Yeah, very quickly can change. Next question. Max Verstappen's chance of winning the championship this season is blank percent. I've gone with 45 percent, just under half. I do feel like Landon Norris is the favorite now to take this. Even though Max doesn't need to win a race, I don't think that Red Bull should be finishing second anyway for the majority of the Grand Prix coming up. I think Ferrari are faster. I think Oscar Piaastri is comfortably faster.

And of course, Lando Norris should be winning multiple Grand Prix for the end of this season. I actually think it's a tall order for Max Stappen to finish in second place, let alone higher for the rest of this season. So he'll do a great job to win this title. He'll have really done it all in the first half. Should he have gone ahead and won this title? Yeah, Hank Gagelai, he hang us in the first half.

And he did. So I'll be impressed if he wins this. So at the moment, even though it's close, you think there is just about more of a chance that he doesn't win it than he does. Yes. I, um, you, you're British bias you. Yes, I've definitely shown that on the most recent shows.

I'm a little bit more common. I'm going with, I'm going with 75%. Oh, that's too confident. I think he can, I think he'll see this off. I think the points marred, if it was closer points wise, then I think there's a good chance he loses it, but I don't know.

If he keeps doing what he's doing like at Singapore and Zamport, and that is a question, Mark, we'll see. I just think they've, the others have left themselves just a little bit too much work to do in the Drivers' Championship. I can't see the Constructeds Championship

going back to Red Bull, though. No, no, I think that one gets come and gone. And the last one on, fill in the blank. Sergio Perez posting the, I'm not leaving, Wolf of Wall Street clip is blank. You might want to, for those that haven't seen this, Sam, quickly fill in the details as to what's happened. But what's your answer as well?

Yes, so if you are aware of the I'm Not Leaving meme, it's from a film called Wolf of Wall Street, which you may or may have not seen in the sense that the main character in the film, it's speculated that he's broken the law and that he might be getting fired by his own firm, and he walks back out of the meeting that he has into the crowd of adoring fans. And that's the point. They adore Jordan Belfort, who is the character here. They adore him. He's like their leader, their king.

So that Sergio Perez is not at Red Bull. And he picks up this mic and there's a dramatic moment. He goes, I'm not going to leave him. There's a swear word in there, which I'm not going to put on the podcast. And it's this big uproar of like a, yeah, the king's staying. The man's here. Woo! We love this guy.

He's our future. There's a lot of things you could take away from now. I'll let you make the difference. The comparisons between Checo Perez at Red Bull and this. man in Wall Street in the 80s. It made me cringe a lot. You know, it really did. One, it was barely spurred on by anything.

It's not like he'd signed a contract and the same day posted this clip, bro. I kind of go, I think he's probably referencing some rumors that he was set to announce his retirement at the Mexican Grand Prix, which was also a rumor that happened last year. And then he crashed. So that's good. Yeah. So I

found it really difficult. It felt very, I don't know, like FIFA YouTuber, big childish, a little bit lame, you know, click baity for likes. Not what I expect from a professional racing driver. I love a bit of banter. Good laugh, good banter. Alonso Hamilton, back and forth. That's great banter. Checo posting a Jordan Belt for I'm not leaving meme. At one level, it is funny. On another level, very, very sad. Just do better at your job. I thought it was fine. No, go, go, go. When I say it was fine, I was like, I didn't find it that funny.

I also didn't cringe it either. I was like, yeah, all right, why not? It made me go. Fair enough. Like a proper lemon in mouth vibe. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It was sour sweet, like a tangfastic moment. You did the sour face meme there very well.

without maybe without knowing. I thought it was okay. The only reason I was okay with this is just because it goes back to the point of drivers being so media trained and this was the complete opposite. This was Sergei Perez going, I'm going to post this because I think it was funny and I'm not going to get approval from anyone.

Yeah, the PR team definitely didn't see that before it went like. God Lord, no. It's just, you know, imagine one Pablo Montoya posts got that about the rumours of him leaving McLaren. Oh, dear. It doesn't always happen ever. Anyway, yeah. I just wanted to throw that one in as well.

Well, that's fill in the blank. That's our podcast. We've got another two episodes, Sam, before we're live showing it. Oh, my God. Is it that close already? Unless I've got something wrong. We've got, what, one this week?

Yeah, Wednesday. Sunday. Sunday. Oh, good Lord. That is a live show. Yeah. Folks just to be aware that that that live. episode will be a later in the week one than normal. It'll go live on a Thursday night,

the whole Wednesday. It'll be a day late and not a dollar short. That's for sure, baby. You have a great time. Thanks for listening to folks. We appreciate you all sticking out how many of you stick around for non-race weeks now. It's crazy. Our numbers generally are through the roof. We are in our most successful period ever. The show is bigger than ever. And a lot of that, all of that, really, is down to you lot that stick out multiple episodes a week listening to us Waffle on. So I love to thank you so much your support. If you want to support any further, the best way to support the show is to join Patreon. The links below, there are three tiers.

We like to think in this day and age, you're quite affordable for the amount of content you get. And we do make really good content. We're really proud in the content we make on Patreon. No jokes here. Generally, we put a lot of work into it. So if you do want to check it out, it helps us out massively. Discords available. If you want to just chat to more people, to us, we're in there as well. Then Discord's available as well.

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I think that's it. We're about midweek. Ben, there's anything going on midweek that people should be aware of? We are doing a Patreon episode midweek. So that helps the Patreon plug. We're at it. And of course, Bewer Breaking this month, we are going to be, we're going to do it in Texas. So we're going to be in the same place in a different country, which last year's Bewer

breaking was interesting, so I'm sure this one will be as well. Yes, Texas drunk is best drunk. Looking forward to it. All right, folks, thanks so much for listening. We will be back midweek and we'll see you there, I'm sure. In the meantime, I've been Samuel Sage. And I've been Ben Hocking. And remember, keep breaking late.

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