The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Senna vs Prost - F1's Greatest Rivalry? | A Short View Back To The Past...

Episode Date: March 26, 2023

It's the debut of a new series! Sam walks us through (arguably) F1's greatest every rivalry - Ayrton Senna vs Alain Prost. We talk through all the highlights of F1's most infamous battle... VOTE for us in the Sports Podcast Awards: https://www.sportspodcastgroup.com/sports_category/best-motorsports-podcast/ SUPPORT our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/latebraking JOIN our Discord: https://discord.gg/dQJdu2SbAm JOIN our F1 Fantasy League: https://fantasy.formula1.com/en/leagues/join/C3CCEW8P704 TWEET us @LBraking BUY our merch: https://late-braking-f1-podcast.creator-spring.com/ EMAIL us at [e-mail] SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. And a very warm welcome to the Late Breaking F1 podcast with Harry Ead, Ben Hocking and me, Samuel Sage. That's weird, the wrong way around, isn't it? Anyway, this is a short view, back to the past. Our new series, where we're going to be talking historic moments across several seasons, the first season being famous rivalries.

and say, hey, we're going to be talking, Prenger, Prerna. Prerna. It's a good start. We're going to be talking to Senga versus Pras. Their couple name, Pranger. That's a now known. Thank you for joining us. It's going well already, as you can tell.

I've written the entire script, and as we go through, I'll be speaking to the guys and asking some questions about, you know, certain moments, highlights, debate points, and they'll be weighing, of course, with their classic stuff as a fly, Thank you. Good. Good. Anyway, looking forward to this.

Boys, how are you both feeling about the first episode of a short from back to the past? I'll be Ben, you go first. The intro by itself was worth it. You know, I was pretty scared heading into this, like handing over the reins of the intro to Sam, but actually, just based on Prenna, it's worth it. It's worth mentioning there are probably a lot of new things for this very episode. One being we've got a brand new jingle.

You'd have already heard it. Two being you can watch this on yubtubs, otherwise known as YouTube. That's true. I've called it the yubtubs for many yubbies. Who's sung or created rather the jingle for us? You might have heard of them, folks, but Chris Zester or Kester, I'm sorry for saying that wrong, Chris.

And Mark Wilson from the band Jet. You know, are you going to be my girl? Have you heard that? It's a bang, down, down, down. It's a banger, isn't it? Multiple bangers, but that is a real banger. And now they've written us a banger as well. Anyway, hello, lads.

Thanks for being a fan of a show. We love you. Appreciate it. And yeah, so let's know what you think. You'll be hearing it throughout the show as we do little transitional moments and at the end of the show as well. We love it.

It's good fun. A bit of rock and roll. We're big fans. Speaking of rock and roll. No. That's not a, that's not a link. Should we got rolling to the story? Oh, God.

Thank you. Bang is rolling in his grave at this point. I'm not dead. Right. Oh, you're on this show, Sunshine. Okay. Right, let's get into the story, folks. All right.

Our story starts in, I mean, it's a long time ago, 1955, in a little commune called the Red Mirror. What? Sorry. Interrupting on the first time. I won't do any more. That was it. Worth it.

I don't know if he didn't. I didn't even hear what you said. So it's when you were born. Basically the jokes you're old. Right, sorry, go. Our story starts in 1955 in a little commune called Lorette near the town of St. Shimon.

A little boy who had come to being known as the professor was born. Or, as we all know him, Alan Prost. His father, Andre, manufactured kitchen furnishings, and you could say that Alan came from a very normal home for a boy of his time. Heism has said that Alan was a very energetic young lad and throw himself into different sports, consequently, breaking from wrestling, rollerblading and football.

The latter he committed so heavily on, pitch that he ended up breaking his nose several times. It was only when the family had gone on holiday to the south of France with Alan when he was 14 years old, that he discovered go-karting. 14 years old to begin carting is incredibly late for Formula 1 drivers of the current age that Alan quickly picked up the necessary skills

in order to be mighty fast on the track. It began as just a fun hobby, but by 19 years old, Alan had made the decision to drop out of school completely in order to focus on his racing. Alan will fix up old engines and distribute carts in order to support his passion for racing. Of course, working with a multitude of engines helped Alan

to understand what made him tick and gave him an advantage in gaining performance, especially when speaking to engineers, later in his career. Just one year later, in 1975, Alan had won the French senior karting championship and the prize was nothing to be sniffed at. He had been awarded in a season in Formula Renault.

The support in France for young races at the time was much further ahead than the grassroots options some other countries that regularly fielded top-level drivers. In his first season of Formula Renault in 1976, he won every single race bar won, and beat the next post his challenger by 38 points. He repeated this success in 1977, taking home the title in back-to-back years, but there was another step to consider before Formula One teams were to come calling. That was Formula 3.

Alan, much like Formula Rano before it, competing in two seasons of Formula 3 back-to-back. In 1978, Alan won the French Formula 3 title at the first time of asking, but at the same time, the European Formula 3 Championship had come calling, and Alan entered just two Grand Prix in his first season, meaning he finished 9 overall. And 9th for Alan simply wasn't good enough. In 1979, Alan entered both the French Formula 3 and European Formula 3 championships. Across both championships, Alan entered 15 races, winning 11 times.

There were only two races across both championships that Alan wasn't on the podium for at all. At the end of 1975, Alan had claimed both titles, and there was nothing more that he could do to attract the big name to Formula 1. Luckily for him, they have been keeping an eye on young Alan and now he was firmly on the shopping list of many teams. In 1980, Alan signed for McLaren, but we'll dive into that a little further on. First question, chaps, to chat into here.

What did you make of Pross's late start to racing? Ben, you want to kick us off? It was quite late, wasn't it? Even for standard drivers of to-go's age? Yeah, I guess it was more common back then, but certainly if you're looking at modern-day Formula One, getting into racing at that age is incredibly uncommon. The only example I can think of recently is Nicholas Latifi.

I think Latifi started racing around the same time as Prost did. And we know despite Latifi getting to Formula One and being a competent driver, yeah, he struggled at that level. And it's not easy. When you've got the likes of try and pick out a couple that are on the current grid, Lando Norris, I think maybe Esteban Okon, they're starting racing at about five years old. But that's, you can't understate the 10 years or so gap in experience and how much that does for a driver at that age, just getting the fundamentals correct.

So given, and you'll go into how successful pros became obviously, but given what he achieved in the sport, given that he had anything but a head start, just makes it all the more impressive. Indeed. I mean, there's a lot of things at 27, 28 years old that we struggled to do normally day to day. So when you start racing at 5, it was quite impressive. Harry, it was quite late into the sport. What did you think about that? Yeah, it's quite, I didn't know that fact, so thank you. We're all here to learn. Thank you.

Every day is a school day. Yes. Surprising, very surprising. And also, when you're a four or five-year-old, you're learning a skill, it's like in Green for Life. I, I thought of skiing the other day. Quite boogie. I know. Oh, look at me.

I'm a skiing. I'd go down a snowy hill. I mean, I fell over and out my leg. But anyway, Harry's... There were four and five adults having ski lessons who were whizzing past me. And my point is, there is an actual point here.

They'll have that skill for liking. Oh, yeah, sorry. Apart from that point. It's two points. But they'll have those skills for light. And it's the same for those drivers that started carting when they're four or five. It's like, it's ingrained to them.

And I'm sure it is still an element of that when you're 14, but it's, I can imagine, it's a lot more difficult. So it's quite impressive that. For me, eating chicken nuggets is what's ingrained. We know. Yeah, good. The second point that stood out to me from when I was doing my research on this early point in Prost's career is the awarding of a drive in a more senior formula as a prize, as part of the prize. That doesn't really happen anymore. Harry, what do you think about giving a driving a more senior formula for winging the junior form?

It's a good idea. Yeah, funny that, hang it? I think they should do that in F2, to be honest. Like sense. Yeah. You don't want just to be gifted drives, or we don't always want drivers to have to pay for their drives. So it feels like that's a fair,

it's quite a fair way of doing it, especially if that driver doesn't come from a huge backing. If they're good, they win a seat in the next level. So what formula was it again? That's Formula Redo up to Formula 3. Well done Formula. Who initiated it? I don't know. I haven't done that much research. I'm not Ben. Well, well done. Formula Renault or Formula 3.

Well done. Slash both for you. Speaking of Ben, Ben, what are your thoughts on this? Speaking of that guy. Yeah, I really wish it was more of a thing because it should be based on merit when you're being elevated up the Formula pyramid, if you like. So I would absolutely love that to be in place far more than it is right now. that sounds like a great idea.

And you just avoid the likes of, I don't know, the likes of Mahavira Gunnuffin getting to Formula 2, right? Because there's no way any of his results implied he should have been there. You know, we're certainly at a stage now, at least Formula 2 to Formula 1, where I think every champion at Formula 2 level for the last seven or eight years has got to Formula 1, which is great. But we had a period of time sort of the early 20,

tens where Formula 2 champions weren't getting into Formula 1. I think there was a period of about three or four years where the likes of Sam Bird and Fabio Limer were winning the championship at F2 level and not getting to Formula 1. And that might come back around and present itself as the case again, you know, in the next couple of years. So I hope, I hope that there is some way to get that installed in the current way of working. Let's know what you think, folks. It is a very interesting story that no longer than that happens.

Anyway, moving on. In 1981, Jessica-Anon-Prosky his debut year in Formula One, Irishman, Ralph Furman, Sr., was preparing for another year with his Van Diemen race team in the British Formula 4 Championship. During the 70s and 18s, this series was considering a major stepping stone on the path to Formula 1, and since entering in 1973, Furman's team, glory. Whilst there was a lot of Sunday drivers in the competition, Racing for Fun, Van Diem have won five Formula 4 titles before Formula 4 festivals, for these looking to get into the sport, this was the team to race for. The problem with this is that a season with Van Diem

would set you back a call 20,000 pounds, which today, I worked out, is about 75 grand. It's a lot of money, right, for a youngster in that matter? Good work, Sam. Thank you. It took a quick Google. Wasn't a lot. But it's still well done. Thank you. When looking for a new driver for the 1981 season, firm and conversed with current Formula One driver Chico Serra and made the decision to bring a young Brazilian on board who was searching for the right place to make his racing car debut. Coming from the karting scene, where the youngster had won everything while the world's karting championship, the Brazilian displayed all the skills needing to achieve racing greatness.

Obviously, we're talking about Ayrton Sena. Well, actually back then he was going as Ayrton-Sengar de Silva, not as catching. Hailing from Sao Paulo, Sena had already built up a reputation in the surrounding area as someone to keep an eye on in the motor racing world. Sena had picked up multiple casting championships in Brazil and then progressed winning everything he could across South America. This is where Ayrton moved to Europe.

with the goal of winning the World Carta Championship. Unlike Frost, Sanger had developed rivalries along his journey to coming into Formula One. Eerton can never take the title, twice finishing runger up in both 1979 and in 1980. And both times, he lost to Carting legend known as Terry Fullerton. Erton, when interviewed later in his career, went to describe Terry as the greatest motor racing rival he'd ever had. A fun fact about Terry is that he still has the cart, he used to be Eerton in both seasons. That's nice, isn't it? A little souvenir.

I love there's a racing driver called Terry. It was good as well. Yeah. And that's even better. He's called Terry and he was good. Every time someone came over to my house, I pointed out on the wall and go, know that right there,

beat Ayrton's and Sanger and that. See you asing I wrote. I'm also, sorry, to interrupt you it. I'm also shook us. Ralph Furman's senior. So I'm guessing that's Ralph Furman's dad in the one who raced in Jordan. Correct.

I never knew that. You're learning something in every paragraph. I feel like I am back at school. Good. Professor Sam is here. Anyway, but to the story. Let's bang me more chiming than anything lovely. No, other than the Fullerton interview,

or the Senate interview about Fullerton, where he gives that answer is epic. It's just, it typifies exactly who Senna was that he had so many great rivals in his career, many of which you're going to go on to, and obviously we're focusing here on his rivalry with Prost, but the fact that he detailed that as his greatest, rivalry really tells you everything you need to know about him as a racing driver.

Yeah, agree. If you're enjoying the story, listen to its end first, of course, and then maybe go away and feel free to YouTube that, because it is out there. But finish this one first, please. It's the first one we're doing. As soon as time and carts came to an end, his family back in Brazil had requested multiple times to give up his silly little hobby and get on with university. But after just three months in 1980, he quit his studies and flew back to England where he settled in eating Norwich. The funny thing about Erting is he didn't speak a word of English at this point. So all he was able to eat were eggs for several months. And he tried to learn English watching terrible 80s television, mainly shows like Fulte Towers. And if you ever seen Fulte Towers,

I'd argue it's maybe not the best place to try and learn, you know, your standard English. Regardless, after a test with Furman and the Van Diemen team, they managed to come to an agreement of £10,000 for the season as Sengh became a works driver in 19, Hilariously, all his mechanics could not really understand him or his name, so they just refer to him as Harry for the year. Good name. Right? Harry Senner.

Ertson Senga de Silva, Harry. There's got to be something there. Like, what? Harry. Alarious. Ridiculous and hilarious. It's an awful name. Terrible name.

Correct. The worst of at least three names I could think of, off the top of my head. Shut up, Ben. Anyway, back to it. Oh, the sound won't spoken. Sorry. He just remembered he's got control of it now. Yeah.

Right. Sangerang never raced cars that British Formula 4 before. He was 21 and a rookie. The team said to him that this season will be about trying to stick with your teammates to learn as much as you can.

Race 1 air to finish 5th, both his teammates were comfortably ahead, but we all know just how good this juncture was going to be. Fifth place was the worst position he would achieve for the rest of the season. In Thruxton, he picked up his first post, and then immediately in the next round, he took his first victory in Brang's hatch.

Overall in this season, Sena won 12 of the 20 races and ending up winging the championship on debut. What happened next, though, will really surprise you. When interviewed on the podium for the final race of the season, that's right, Harry, it was shocking. Ayrton was asked, what is he looking to do next? To everyone's surprise, he quit. This came as a huge shock to everyone in the racing community. Sena chose this route for two reasons.

He had married early, and the racing was one of the reasons that his marriage was failing. The other more pressing reason is what plagues most drivers, the availability of cold, hard cash. He returned to Brazil and had almost accepted the prospect that he wouldn't go back to racing, especially as Brazil was in the economic crisis at the time, and all the sponsors available were looking at Formula One. But by February 1982, he decided he couldn't give up on his dream. Basically, he convicts his really wealthy dad to finance his racing moving forward. Helpful. In the 1882 season, Seng assigned with the Russian Green Racing Team.

and entered into both British and European Formula 2000 championships. A seat at the team went for £40,000 a year. The Sena had managed to grab it for me 30. How? Well, Russian, the team owner, and make a lighthearted comment that if Sena were to come race for him next season, he can have it at the cut price of 10 grand. The Sena took that seriously.

So they had to haggle, they met the 30K mark, and Sena's dad coughed up the cash. In 1982, Sena won more than 78% of races that he entered, bringing home both the British and European Formula title. again pretty good anyway here's a quick little story of a raise just going to tell you how talented singer was at this young age in schnetterton senegal was leading by quite some margin and then all of a sudden he drops way way way way way way down to seventh place way the team were incredibly focused about focus is not the right word either so you

throw me off my last one sorry sorry prena god the team were incredibly confused is what i meant to say about what was going on what happened is that a piece of debris had cut senna's front brake line so he's racing only on his rear brakes. Senga's teammate in this time had now gone to have a 15 second lead over the rest of the field until Senga adjusted the roll bar to its softening setting

and essentially decided he was going to race the car like it was a go-kart. And amazingly, Senga passed the entire grid and managed to meet his team. Sengar's teammate after the race reportedly asked him how he could improve his driving and Zanga replied, wait later. I was breaking later than you

and I had no brakes. A man of our own hearts. Yeah. If he was here, he'd be on the show. Yeah. At this point, F-1-Ting is going to take notice about him, and Ron Dengis at McClaren offered him a test seat, with an option for a race seat later in his career if he were to impress.

Senga said no, wanting a place on the grid immediately, so the next step up to prove himself to attain this is Formula 3, which at the time was considered to be the most prestigious junior rating series worldwide. Our favourite man, Eddie Jordan, was the first person to offer Sengar a drive. It's so much faith in him that he gave him attesting his Formula 3 team, for free. Within 20 laps, Sena had mapped the Silverstone Club circuit faster than the Engel had ever raced that way out

and then told the team how they could go even faster, chicky-git. But Erton wanted the best, so he ignored any Jorgon's calls to come and drive for him and move to the West Surrey racing team. But only after getting the 110 grand entry fee from his dad and sponsors which he needed to race. It was at this point

that Erton Senna the Silver dropped the latter part of his game and became simply known as Erting Sena. This is where Sena's second round rivalry began before we even get close across. And at the start of the season in round one, everyone turned up with the ultimate expectation that Sena would walk over the pack, best car, best team, and now the best young driver. And Sena somehow didn't actually grab pole, but it didn't matter in that first race because he dominated the race and won it comfortably.

And he did the same at round two in Thruxkin, round three in Silverstone, round four, round five, round six, round seven, round eight, and round nine, Sena went on to get pole position, fastest slap, and win the race. The domination was almost unbelievable. But it was also what Sena had expecting himself and his team. So at this point, Sena basically didn't need to win again. The seasoning order to screw in the title was Danadastly, he thought, I'm good, start in the top spot again.

The league was almost unbeatable. And I say almost, I mean, almost. Round 10 and Silverstone, it all starts going down the toilet, Freiton. With it at this race, the British and European Championship grigs all got mixed together. It was a very odd concept, but each championship ran a different tire manufacturer. Basically, the drivers

were given an option on what tie they wanted to choose. every driver just chose the fastest one regardless of where points were coming and that included Erton Sanger as well he just won't get the fastest time but it wasn't Senga that ended up taking the spoils on that day in Silverston it was the man who was driving Eddie Jordan's car the very car that Sanger had tested

it was a man who you all know today as the voice of Formula One the king of Grigwarks that's right it was Martin Brundle Rundle picked up the role picked up pole and the wing while Seng a crash cow You in my corner here, ain't going to film me.

Why'd you keep putting two words together? It's a nervous thing, all right? It's my first time doing a real script. It's scary. When are we getting on to Prerna? You're doing a ground. Well, Pranah's coming, mate. Brewerner's coming.

Anyway, Brunnel picked up pole, thank you, and the wing while Sena had crushed out. This was a pivotal swing in the championship for Brundle. The next round, Sena crushes out in qualifying, can't start the race. Guess who wings it? Brundle. The round after this,

Sena and Brundel Kallai, going wheel to wheel and Senga for the third time running has to retire from the race, but Brundle, he wins for the third time on the bounce. Sengar and Brundle picked up one more win each into the next round, and Dick Bennett, who ran West Subway racing, was getting rather nervous as that huge points lead that Senga had was starting to slip away. Seng was going for his aggressive style driving, regularly putting his car in a position where the other driver either yields to Erton or they crash. But Brondel goes like he wasn't going to do that anymore, and when Sanger went for a daring move that really wasn't on, Martin just didn't back down. A huge crash

happens and both drivers go out. Sanger only wings one of the next four races while Brundle picks up the other three. Because of this, Brunnel was technically beating Senga going into the final race by one point. But because British F3 had this weird rule where you had to drop your three best results from your points tally, it meant that Brundle had to get pole, fastest slap, and the race wing in order to beat Sanger for the championship. Unfortunately for Martin, he didn't do a single one of those things. Sengel dominating every single moment of the weekend and he became the 1983 British former three champion. He also went on to win Macau that year without any practice or even doing the country.

track war, which is just showing off, by friend. He's going on everything in his junior career that he could physically could get his hands on. And we're going to catch up with air in a minute, once we get back to Formula One. But for a moment, folks, we're going to go for a little outbreak, and then we'll come back with some questions about what this happened with Serta. Serta!

Serta! I'm taking it again! Stay with us and make up more words after the break. Anyway, we're back, and I've decided to make up more words, I'm sure. But we got some questions after what just happened to. Eerton, Senga, his full game, Ben, Sengel was no stranger to rough on-trap rivals. And do you think that this fight with Brundle

really prepared him for what was coming with the likes of Prost? Yes, yeah, it did. And I think he needed that before he got to Formula One, because he was so naturally gifted that there was a risk in his junior career that he wouldn't have the sort of rivalry. and it looked, as you rightly say, it looked like halfway through that season. He wasn't going to even have that in that year.

So I think it was a really important step in Senna's career. And you think of the amount of races he did that you went through there in those couple of years at the likes of Brandtach and Snetterton, it's no surprise that those cold, damp circuits as they can be, really prepared him for what was. to come in his Formula One days and he really excelled in the sort of conditions that you mentioned there

that he had in his junior career. And Harry obviously he went up against Brundle. Brondell, of all people. I don't think a lot of people saw Brundle have it in him, really. Legend. Absolute legend. I mean, not to make this about Martin Brondel,

but his... It can be. F-F-I can do. But his F-1 career, not motor books, he was very successful in sports class, but his F-1 career was like a career of what it could have been

because I think he could have won at least won a few races anyway it's interesting the bit about Sena always putting his car in a position where he either get out of the way or we're going to have a crash

and I'm not do not come after me everyone but this is remind you of a certain I must have to just happen don't shut up Ben but that's that style shut up that style

of racing, I'm not saying it's correct, but it's that very aggressive putting your car in a position where you have to back down, as in the opponent has to back down, and if you don't, we're going to have an accident, and then it's your fault, which we've seen, you know, at least with Staffland and Hamilton, happened quite a lot.

Yeah. Doesn't get interesting. I've been on to achieve greatness as well, so maybe there's something in. Rondola is Lewis Hamilton is what we're saying there. Correct. Great comparison. Thank you. Another question to this is,

Ben, what do you make of Singer's junior career in comparison to Prost's more stripped back, refined, and almost accelerated during your career. You know, it was very efficient how Prost ran things. Do you think that that gave them any difference in balance when coming into Formula One, or do you think the preparation was as it should be? That's an interesting question.

Yeah, certainly Pross didn't have time on his side because even with his accelerated career, as already mentioned, the fact that he started at 14 years old meant that he was, you know, mid-20s when he did come into Formula One with McLaren in 1980, whereas Senna, I guess, had the luxury of building up a little bit more to a Formula One career. So I guess, yeah, I think having those battles with Brundle, having those battles with Fullerton,

I think they probably really helped by the time Senna got to Formula One, whereas maybe Prost actually, maybe Pross needed that in his early years. So, Prost needed those in his later years in his junior career rather than going straight in in 1980. Any thoughts? My only thought there is that Aetton said it became one of the greatest F-1 drivers of all time because he had big battles with two guys named Terry and Martin. That's how anyone succeed.

That's a lesson for you out there. If you're starting carting, make sure you find a Terry. Anything, not just casting. You start to get anything, find a Terry and a Martin to have a massive battle. happen and learn. Right, good. We'll crack on with the next portion of the story and hope that I don't mess up too many words.

They're all written down, we don't know why I'm struggling. Anyway, we're going to jump back in time slightly just to see how Prost could have been getting on in the big old world of Formula One while Sanger was busy having rivalries in the junior categories. Pross is signed for McLaren. In his first season in the sport,

whilst got groundbreaking, is nothing to be sniffed out. Entering 13 races across the season, Ross picked up four Grand Prix, points in four Grand Prix have finished the season on the same points tally as two-time world champion Emerson fitter Pallady. No, that's all right, isn't it? First go round.

Do you do the two-time world champ dance? You can see it, everyone. Love that. Love it. Love you. Two-time world champ. Right. Whilst it was generally considering a good rookie year, Frost also had his issues. The most notable being breaking his risks in a crash

during a practice session at Kielami. Similarities there drawn between Ports, and Prost. The same person. Very similar. let's hope that Connell goes on to achieve four world titles. Despite having another two seasons on his contract, Prost decided to leave McLaren for Renault.

He said in an interview that the team seemed to blame him for many of the incidents. He felt the car had a lot of reliability issues. In 1981, Ross Parkers up alongside late-breaking legend René Arnou, which immediately gets off to an absolutely awful start, both on track and behind the scenes. Ross was faster than René,

then he's more experience, Renee. Right, he had a lot more races on his belt, but Pross was immediately so much faster than him. But Alan's season was something of a DNF or podium type season. Out of 15 Grand Prix, Ross retired from nine of these races. It was never off the podium, but he actually finished.

After taking his first ever Grand Prix victory at his home Grand Prix in France, he said he had a change of mindset, being quoted saying, before, he thought you could do it. Now you know you can. After a very topsy-turvy season, he ended the year in fifth place, only seven points away, Nelson Peké, in the news for rather

unfortunate reasons recently, Nelson. Who? Racist. Oh yeah. Who won the championship that year? Over the next few seasons with Renaud, it just got better and better for Prost. Prost won the first two Grand Prix of the 1982 season, in South Africa where Prost recovered from losing a wheel, and in Brazil where he finished third, but was awarded the win after

P.K. and Keke Rosberg were disqualified. He finished giving the points on four hours. occasions. And folks, if you're not familiar with old school Formula One, it was much harder to finishing the points. You know, it wasn't like what you're seeing out with Stappen, Hamilton, Ferraris, where they finish in the points every single Grand Prix unless they have a D&F. I think only the top six, right, got points back then, and points were much smaller and awarding. So if you had a reliability issue or something went wrong, you were regularly not in the points. So that's why you're thinking, well, he won four titles. How come you only finishing the points?

Four times that season. Very normal, very standard. anyway he didn't win again after finishing the points of four different occasions despite retiring from seven races Prost improved all his driver's championship position finishing in fourth that season

but his final year at Renault in 1983 whilst he did improve his championship position on track and he started to fall apart with management Frost earned a further four victories for Renault during the season and finished second in 1983 driver's championship two points behind resident racists Nelson PKK Pekke and the Brabam team overhauled

Prost and Rheno in the last few races of the season. Prost, who felt the team had been too conservative in developing the car, found himself increasingly at odds with Rano's management. He made him the scapegoat for failing to a new championship. Two days after the South African Grand Prix, Renault fired Prost, and he promptly re-signed McClaren for the 1984 season. What do you think of that, folks?

Odd that, you know, such a prolific driver moving forward, winning races regularly, was just booting out of the team. He made a habit of getting fired. He did. We're going to get onto that later. He wasn't the first time he gets, try against career. I'm sorry, you said that he called them out. He did.

Yeah. I mean, he had a bit of a habit, a bit of that. Not saying it was necessary. He spoke his mind. Yeah, not saying it was wrong, but he didn't, Fernando Alozo in that sense. He didn't keep it to himself, did he, if the car wasn't up to scratch and didn't meet his talents,

he told them about it, and then they fired him. I'm really good. Your car's not very good. let me down. Get out the door. Yeah. All right. Bye. Bye. Back to McCle and I go. Please, wrong. Let me in. Any thoughts on that one, then?

Yeah, I always find Prost's early career absolutely fascinating because going back to actually the previous point in that if I think, I think if Prost debuts in Formula One a couple of years earlier than what he does, let's say 78 rather than 80, I am convinced that he wins a championship in either 81, 82, 83, because he was very good in those three years.

And yeah, points away in each of those three seasons, particularly 82, was a complete lottery as to who was going to win that season. And it felt, yeah, Renault were close. They were really close. Like they were the first team to introduce turbocharged power units in Formula One. And everyone else in the early 80s was catching up to get there. And it felt like, you know, Renault was like, first adopters of this should be ahead of the curve in that and they should be winning these

titles and they could never quite get over the line. And yeah, obviously it completely breaks down in 83 and certainly back in those early 80 days, Renault were, I don't know what the right way to say this is, but Renaud were incredibly tied to the country of France in that it was, if you were being outspoken about the team, it was almost an insult on the country. itself. I know that a lot of national newspapers turned on Prost when he started to speak out against the team in 83. And, you know, it's very difficult. So it's not quite just a, the team and him had a falling out. It's the ramifications of that were quite large. But obviously, him going back to McLaren, as I'm sure you'll go into, not a bad idea.

Yeah, we'll get on to that right now, actually. So right then, we have made it back to 1984. and I've always told you that Pross was resigning for his former team McLaren. What of our young Brazilian sensation, when after multiple trials and offers from teams, some test rolls, some roles where he wouldn't have control of what he wanted, he signed for Tolman. In his first season, he massively impressed the field and outdrove what many thought the car was capable of.

But this is the season where mild friction between Bross and Senga first shows its glimpses. Most notable occasion where Sanger outd outdrove his car was at the Monaco Grand Prix. Sanger's best result of the season came at this Monaco Grand Prix, the first Whipweather race of the season. He qualified 13th on the grid, but he makes steady progress in climbing through the field, passing Nicky Lauda for second on lap 19. He quickly began to cut the gap to race leader Alan Prost,

but he can never attack Prosc as the race was stopped on lap 31 for safety reasons, as the rain had grown far too heavy. At the time, the race was stopped, Sena was capturing Prosc by about, wait for it, folks. Not one, not two, no, four seconds a lap he was capturing Prost. And remember, Prostka Zinga-McLaren, Senegger-Tolman, right, there's a big difference there.

And he felt that he could easily have taken the victory, and that first wing is going to have to wait. This was the closest that the two would come for a little while, both on and off track. Ross finished runner-up in the 1984 season. He lost the World Championship to Lauda, his teammate in the final race of the season in Portugal, by half a point.

Despite winning seven races to Laugust five, that half-point difference came because the Monaco Grand Prix was cut short due to the weather. In 1985, Lotus had taken notice of Senes' great start in Formula One, and signed him on a multi-year deal. The good form continued for Ayrton. At the second race of the year, held in Portugal, Senna took pole and converted this to take his very first Formula One victory.

This quickly recognised Senna as a championship contender and a threat to those at the top. But finally, it was Prost who was taking the big step up. Picking up five Grand Prix wings and only finishing once off the podium, Alan had done enough to finally take home his first world title and had beaten the legendary driver louder after being defeated the year prior.

Sengar would have to settle, the fourth place. In 1986, our two protagonists are both once again on the up. Prosses is paired against that sexy Scandinavian man, Cheque-K Rosberg, and the Sena was making the most out of his lotus. But again, it's Alan Prossk, who beats the fierce rivals, a rally to claim his second championship back-to-back. Sen, though, has gone one step further than this previous season,

and now sits third, only 15 points off the top. Now, we spoke about this really briefly in an episode recently. I think, Ben, it was just you and me, and we did a kind of a pump the brakes. So I said that Pross was the most underrated driver of all time when it comes to World Champions. Look at the teammates he went up against. Even before we've got to Sena as a teammate, right? He's gone against Loudoun.

He's gone against Rosberg and others. It's quite an amazing lineup of drivers that he's had to battle against, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think we mentioned that if you look here, if you look at his weakest drivers that he came up against, it would be a great list if they were the strongest ones. So certainly Prost had. that huge competition, you know, 84 against Loudouners, a classic example, where, you know, Prost probably had the pace to win that championship. He ends up half a point behind.

But, yeah, just a great list of teammates all throughout his career. In 1987, this was the final year for our two races that ledgings come head to head for the first time. Prost has his worst during Formula One since debut, finishing only fourth in the standings, which is... washed. Yeah, right? Oh, fourth place. Get out, mate.

Awful. He still managed three victories that year. Sena in his final year at Lossus actually managed to beat Prosc in the standings and finished third. Now we get some 1980s, and that's where the drama really starts. And you know what, folks? We're going to get to it after the outbreak. Come back.

I swear done. Did you actually write the word was sexy Scandinavian down? Yeah, let me find it on the script. There you go. Cross is paying up against sexy Scandinavian. He's literally written it down, folks. Good. Some jokes.

sugar, lost in time. Not a joke, really. He wasn't a little of a hunky man, wasn't it? It's a statement of fact. Yeah. Okay, folks, we're back from the break, and it's all about to get a little bit spicy. It's quite a...

It's quite a 188 and McLaren are looking for a new teammate to partner up with their star boy and now two-time world champion, Alan Prost. Funny enough, it's Alan, who turns to McLaren management that suggests that they bring in Ert's Singer to sit alongside him. Both drivers come across as incredibly excited to work along and other,

and the season does get off to a flyer. Most believe that Pross was going to dominate the field. The MP4-4-4 was the best Formula One car ever created at this point, and with this line-up, it was hard to see a way to beat Prost. However, Sengar wasn't having any of it and wanting to stamp his authority on the team from day one. In the first seven rounds, Sengar and Prost trade victories, and come round eight at the midway point held in Germany,

Pross League Sengar by only three points. At this point in their relationship, it was still a lot of respect, and neither driver had been hostile to one another. Very much similar to how the Hamilton-Rosburgh drama had began, right? They kind of knew each other from their racing and seeing each other now for a long time in racing and, of course, became teammates

and actually got off to a really, really positive friendly relationship, but a lot of similarities between there. The son is now blinding. She started coming. Brilliant. Blind us. Good. But going back to the Monaco Grand Prix in 1988, that we'll see a changing of the tide.

And it's most fondly remembered by Senafans. Erton kept up his ability to a whole new level on the Saturday. And after putting in an astonishing qualifying lap, he qualified 1.4 seconds clear of Prost. Imagine that happening now in today's terms, but imagine it happening over a two-time world champion, right? Like, Sena won a couple of races at this point. He was not in the big leagues that we know of him now.

And he beats Prost by 1.4 seconds. Ben, that is just dumbfounded at this time, right? Oh, absolutely, yeah. and there's not even a really a modern example you can compare it to you, but obviously we know Monaco is not the largest circuit in the world. So 1.4 seconds there might be the equivalent of two seconds at a place like spa. And the onboard of that lap is one of the most replayed videos that we have in Formula One. And rightly so, it's artistry, right?

It's majestic. Harry, is your love life, Monaco, you know, you've got a real affinity with the city. Do you think about a 1.4 second gap? I don't know where you'd get with that, but it's

it's, you know, one of the greats. I'm being inert here. Isn't the on board actually of 89? I mean, I don't know. I don't watch you on board in my research. Anyway, I don't think the 88 is available on board, but still that's a big old gap.

Big old gap. If people were worried about Red Bull domination these days, have a look about it. Oh, he's had another go at Lewis Hamilton. Or of Lewis Hamilton domination. I don't, you know, take your pick, of Michael Schumerick domination. Jeez.

Right, this was the moment that Prost knew Sengel was not just an apprentice, but in fact a real rival. Someone who would have to put all his energy into beating. Their relationship was also bringing into show signs of strain when the pair were interviewed together towards the end of the season.

Seno, when asked about the pair is quoted saying, we have good fun. We have good fun. She was heating up. But Pross said, we fight. Maybe we have to fight outside the car too. Same replied, there can only be one winner. That's fighting talk. Having. Yeah, a little punch up between this. There are more punk chaps in Formula One. Don't see them too often anymore, right?

You don't. Not necessarily a bad thing, but still. I don't know. A little bit a fisty. It's funny when F1 driver's fight, because they always have the helmets on. And they're also a little bit like, I've never punched any one before in my life. So they kind of go, oh, I've got you on the head. They never commit to it because they break the knuckles. Yeah, it's always the side of the hand. You're on the top. Got you.

Anyway, okay, Formula One, results speak much louder the words. In the penultimate race of the season at the Japanese Grand Prix, Sengah had a shocking start falling back to 14th place. But within four laps, Sengah made up 10 places. It was hunting down his team, mate, who was comfortable in the lead. In dramatic, Senna fashion, he caught Prost, dived down the inside of turn one and took the league of the Grand Prix, going on to win the race.

And with it, he won his first world title. In doing so, he had rewritten the record books, breaking the record for most wings in a single season. The previous song of that record at the time, Alan Prost. So that's got a scheme. Oof. Harry, what did you make of the way that Senga held his own against Prost in their first season together? I mean, yeah, very impressive. I've got to say that the, if you haven't watched Japanese GP from that year,

would recommend it go and watch it because it's good. It's pretty impressive from Senna. Because if you think nowadays a driver bottles a championship finale start like that and fall, what, what did he fall back to you? 14. Oh, it's all over. We're done. And he's, I mean, I know the car was ridiculously quicker. It's too much still driving it.

Exactly. But to catch Brost, having fallen back to 14 to take him is, yeah, it's very impressive. And yeah, I think that might have, I might have stung a little bit for Alan, especially losing that record as well at the same time. Ben, what your thoughts on that first season for Singer against Pross? He held his own. He did, and the Lotus Days implied that he would, but you've still got to see it. And as you say, Prost had already won titles,

and Senna had won races rather than one titles. So there was that experience edge for Prost, but that whole 88 season was just how contrasting styles can create one of the greatest rivalries of all time, because Prost and Senna were just so completely different in their racing style. And Senna always had the pace edge. He always had the pace advantage. And that Japanese Grand Prix that you speak about really proved it.

But how that worked out over the course of a season, factoring in DNFs and Pross knowing how much to push the car, just created such a fascinating season. It's the prime example is Monaco, 88. because Senna was so quick, like way quicker than Prost, and then he bins it in the race and Pross wins. And it's that, that's, they're the two different.

Speed versus consistency again, right? Yeah, tortoises versus the hair. Oh, no, he's not. It's a very quick tors. I'm not calling out of Prost to Torsets. Right. Nicole, oh. Good.

Just one of the most decorated drivers in time. Right. You know, it doesn't matter. Good. Good. Right. As we move into 1989, there still wasn't much hostility between the two champions, but Pross was eager to reclaim the top spot

and prove he was the number, one man in Formula One. But this fighting fair mentality didn't last long. It was only round two in the San Marino Grand Prix that the tensions began to escalate. The team, in a very surprising fashion, agreed that whoever was ahead going out of turn one would then not be challenged by the other driver for the remainder of the Grand Prix. So, this lights out, and it's Sena that leaves through turn one. At this point, it seemed like a done deal.

But when Gerhard Berger crashed heavily at Tamborello causing a red flag, this would therefore mean there'd be a second red start. Can you see where this is going, folks? this time around oh no no indeed this time around was absolutely ace for start and he leagues through turn one

but Strangelfelt because he led the first race start he should have a sendency with in the team and he had the right to overtake Alan which he immediately did and this absolutely infuriated Frost as he felt he had been respectful of the agreement

until that very moment this was the moment when the rivalry shifted from a fierce but respected fight to a very bitter battle where each driver would do whatever it takes to beat the other Then, much like the season before,

Prosc and Sanger exchanged wings throughout the first seven rounds, but throughout many points of the season, Prost made it clear he really wasn't happy, complaining that his Honda engine simply didn't work as well as Sengers, who had built an excellent relationship with Honda when he was driving for Lotus back in 1987. But after the 4th Grand Prix in Mexico,

fortune started to shift in Pross's favour. We went on to wing three of the next four races while Sanger experienced DNF after DNF. Retirements for reliability were really began to hinder's title hopes, and by the time they were, arrived at the Spanish Grand Prix, three races from the end of the season, Prost led by 24 points. So, with three races to go, Selling him to win every single race left in order to take the championship. At all order, but not impossible, and especially for someone like Senga.

Senga began well, winning the Spanish Grand Prix in Haref, a Hager Prost, who finished second. However, the following race in Japan would not be so clear cut, and many F1 fans will know it infamously well. We'll take our final break. Nice. And we'll come back for one. What is the real spice of the rival? Spicey. Spy.

God's sake. Okay, folks, I hope you enjoyed your little break. Make sure you've got yourself a little tea or a little coffee, maybe a little glass of wine if it's an evening of where you are. Just relax. Lovely. All right. A bit of Reno.

All right. A bedtime story. Yeah, give yourself, you know, some breathing room for everyone else and really settling. Maybe you have a bath, you know, close the eyes. Relax. That's too far. No more details, though. Anyway, we're back in Japan.

Sena arrived at the track knowing all he had to do was win something he was used to at this point Sena began the weekend well taking pole position and continuing an incredible qualifying run now this is mad right remember the 1.4 from Monaco

he beat out second place cross this time by 1.7 seconds which is astounding again when you're beating a multi-time world champion by such a large margin I even wrote here quite cheekily talk about card donation A Lewis Hamilton you're having a pop of me for saying that

Oh, he's written it down. Pop, pop, it's showtime. A little bit of a pop. This was Sena's 12th pole in 15 races, by the way, which is, you know, pretty mad. So, the lights go out. Old position quickly means nothing, as Frost gets away brilliantly,

swooping into the league ahead of the Brazilian. Frost always excelled in race conditions over qualifying, and he immediately creates a six-second gap at Sena. Eriton saw his championship hopes fading, and began putting in qualifying style laps over and over to catch Prost. The gap gets smaller, and then, on that 47 of the race, Sena catches Prost. Making a move on Allen, diving down the inside of the Cassio Triangle Chican. He said that Pross saw Sena going for the dive and intentionally turns across the track

early, causing them to both collide and bringing them to a soundstill. Prost immediately jumped out of his car, believing that both cars have sustained severe damage and he believed Sena was going to do the same. The Sena managed to keep his engine running and drove off through the escape road and managed to get himself back into the Grand Prix. As expected, Pross was furious at this point. So to counteract what Sengel was doing, Pross ran to the race director

explaining that Senga did not follow the track, that he'd cut the chican and should be disqualified from the race. Senga took the check of flag and celebrated for he thought that he had just won his seventh wing of the season and kept that title fight alive. But not so far, Kertan. He had indeed been disqualified for the Grand Prix by race stewards, but not until after the race had ended.

I guess some things never changed, right? Cheers, FIA. I mean, back then it was FISA, right? Chis FIASA. Now, FISA, who were the governing body at the time, came under fire for this. Segarly that Jean-Marie Bolesk had intentionally disqualified Ayrton from the Grand Prix in order to award his fellow Frenchman the world title.

Unfortunately, these claims fell on deaf ears and Frost walked away with the third world title. Now, Ben, we've just seen almost some very similar controversy with race control and the governing body. They haven't really learned, did I think. I mean, this might annoy some people, but the most recent form of controversy related to the FIA pales in comparison to this one

because this, I don't know how to diplomatically say this, but this is the... It's the equivalent... Imagine, and I'm not saying, do this, but if you illegally download a movie, It's the equivalent of being put away for life as a result of doing that. Skipping the chicane and getting disqualified is madness. Take on like a five second penalty.

Fine. But could you imagine that happening in today's Formula One, where the disqualification happened from skipping a chican and not following the track correctly. The worst part was it this, of course. Skipping off the chican was called the safety road. He took the safety road to get back to the track. Unless he picks up his car and levitates it back to where he went off, Harry. But I've seen, if you've, folks, if you've not watched the SENA movie, by the way,

which 100% recommend. Really good. Well, it's documentary, I guess. But there's bits in that about this incident. And Ron Dennis afterwards is defending Senate, which you'll get on to because Frost is off. But they're showing video of other jobs. driver skipping the chican and also the argument was, what do you want him to do?

Reverse back onto the track. So reverse on the track and then go do the chican. I mean, footage shows stewards pushing the car through the safety road to get him back on the track the other way, right? You almost had no control over it. Can you imagine F1 Twitter. If Twitter was a thing in 1989.

Oh, God. Also, they saw some other controversial, but it was ambitious move from Centre, but Pross 100% turned in. Well, that's what they say. I'm not going to start making decisions left right and centre, but go and watch the footage. Go watch it.

Available to watch. Really interesting. And we're going to move on from that slight bit of controversy. But as you can understand here, tensions between the two were absolutely through the roof. Because of this, Proscis, he had enough, especially as Harry just mentioned, that Ron Deng has said, been defending Sengar in this moment, leaving McLaren and moving to join Ferrari for the 1990 season. Famously being quoted, it becomes impossible to work with Ayrton.

With this move, you might think that this might be the end of the story. but quite the contrary. The third season in a row, it was Senga and Pross who exchanged victories, Senga winning six to Pross's five. The difference maker, as we mentioned earlier,

consistency. All right had been picking up the points when they mattered throughout the season. So despite having one less win, the fight was very much on for the title. So if you could predict, just one place at this point, but the title showdown to take place.

Well, where you go out of the guess, you know, Japan? Oh, he's no new one. That's right. We're back at Suzuki. just like one year previous. Young Nam.

I'm not sure the construction site of the Gungia. Yeah. Right. How the terms have tabled, as Michael Scott would say. This time, it was Senna in the driving seat. And if both drivers retire, it would be Eerton to a walk away with the title. In Qualley, Sena once again sits on pole, showing true dominance on a Saturday.

But weirdly enough, the pole position slot has been moved to the dirty side of the track, something you rarely see in modern-day Formula One. Both Sanger and McLaren protested this change, but it was our friend Jean-Marie Balletsk who got the final say and rejected their protests. And this meant that Prost in P2 got the clean side of the grid

and the better run into turn one. I mean, it's just endless controversy at this point. I honestly, Twitter would have blown up. It'd have been hell. We've been in 2021 times three. It was really awful. Yeah, like World War entirely in a full. a one race.

Honestly, awful. And I've lost my point now of where I was going to be on this great little bit. Oh, I found it. I found it. Everyone was fine. Few.

So, anyway, as we get to this point, everyone is ready for a title showdown. But then the absolute worst thing for controversy imaginable happened. As commentary legend, Murray Walker screamed over the action, oh, it's happened immediately. This is amazing,

but I feared it was absolutely predictable. Ross and Sanger, going to turn one side by side. and they collide so heavily. In the same case of once again, Sena has not yielded from a move, and Pross has gone, no thanks, Sean.

I also think side by side is being generous. Yeah, that's true. I mean, again, go and walk to footage. That is a little bit kind. Anyway, they collide, and both cars get set into the gravel trap, and this was the absolute worst point in Senga and Prost relationship.

Two of Formula One's greatest drivers had shattered any formal relationship in that they have built, and in the following season of 1991, Sena was dominant. went on to his third and final title. Well, Prost, in an uncompetitive Ferrari, only managed fifth. Now, could you imagine, for example, another season, two seasons of the Stappen and Hamilton,

going at it toe to toe to toe to like this, right? It would be the end of the world as we know it. No, no, no, no. Ben, how do you think that they were reacting? I think they were feeling at that time. What do you feel about, you know, these moments that went on? They're so historic and famous for us F1 fans. It feels about right that the way that one of the greatest rivalries of all time kind of came to an end was thanks to Ferrari.

So there's another box ticked for things that Ferrari are good for in their existence. But yeah, maybe it needed a break at that point because it was just fundamentally they were just so different. I know I've already mentioned it, but they were just so fundamentally different that. But also in a few ways, exactly the same in terms of their eagerness to win. The methods in which they attempted to achieve it might have varied from time to time and in terms of their styles. But ultimately, a lot of these just come down to it being two ultra-competitive, great drivers, and there just wasn't room for both of them at certain points in their careers.

Quite literally on track as well, you'd argue. due to Prost continually blaming Ferrari for a poor car the at the time three-time world champion was sacked before the season can even finish there is folks the second sacking of Alan Prost who was a three-time world champion again can you imagine if it's happening to

I don't know Hamilton Schumacher be ridiculous wouldn't it? Never mind Ferrari the rest of the 90s will go great for you brilliant good okay Frost was arguably at his all-time career low at this point and in 1992

wouldn't be much better either for Sena Norpros. Ross took a year out of the sport and a dominant Williams car meant that Senna couldn't even get into the top three into the standings. But in 1993, the old rivalry reignates. Reignites? Sam, that's how you say it.

I wrote the script. Reignites for one last time. Ross had agreed a contract to join the very dominant Williams team and was back at the top of the sport and he even included in his contract that Sena will not be allowed to join him as a team May. Senga got wind of this, singing a press conference criticised the politics of the sport in an audacious move he called Prost a coward. Yeah, harsh, burn. When the season kicked off,

the rivalry was in full force. Sengar and Pross clashed on many occasions throughout the year, but to Sengar's Gismay, the cast simply wasn't able to hang with the Williams, and Prost claimed his fourth and final world title in Formula One, and then retired from the sport. Sengel was never able to quite get the better of him on track once again. And the sad thing about this rivalry was that once Prost had retired from racing, regularly met with Ayrton, and was quoting saying that he found a new side to Sena, one he had never seen before and said they very much started to become friends. But what could be in a brilliant relationship between two racing legends was cut short. In 1994 in San Marino, Sena had one of the most infamous

incidents in racing history, crashing at Tamarillo and, of course, sadly losing. As for Prosting all of this, he was actually a pool bearer during Eerton's funeral and helped carry Eerton to his final rescue place. And many years later, during an interview, Prost said the following. I looked back on how he was when we were rivals as a compliment. I came to understand their heir to its main motivation, almost his sole motivation, was to focus on me, and on beating me. And that's why when we were on the podium together in Australia in 1993, when I stopped just a few seconds later, he was already a different person. That would be his last ever victory, and Siska that Pross stand with him on the top step of the podium after Alan

received his runger up trophy, physically pulling him up to the stand and to stand their arm in arm together. Frost said that that souvenir of our relationship is what he carried with him today. Harry, is this the biggest rivalry in Formula One history? You've ever seen? Yeah, it is, isn't it? Because there have been many rivalries in F1 history, but everyone, you know, when we were having the Hamilton Rosberg or Hamilton Verstappen, everyone's like, is this the new Senna Prost? It's the one everyone refers back to. The OG. Yeah, I mean, it's not even the OG because there's,

there are other great rivalries before that, but it's just the most infamous, infamous one, I guess. Yeah, it's the one everyone ever will remember. Yeah, I agree. Ben, would you put this up there is the number one rivalry of all time or have you got another one in mind? No, it's the number one rivalry of all time. And in all honesty, it's, it might be a fight for,

but it's not close. This is by far the greatest rivalry of all time. It's, you know, it could have been rivaled at a few later points in Formula One history. Certainly if things are gone differently in Bethel and Hamilton's career, could that have been a rivalry on that level, potentially? You know, Schumacher, as much as we joke about David Kulthar being his greatest rivalry of all time, Schumacher, I don't think ever had that. I don't think Schumacher ever had that equivalent.

He had, you know, breaks here and there where it was Hackernan and then, you know, might have been Coulthard temporarily and then it became Montoya, then it was a long-so. But there was never a Villeneuve to add for Harry's pleasure, but there was never really an extended equal to Schumacher. So we've had great drivers since Senna and Prost, but I don't think any of them have had an extended rivalry with a peer. this is by far the greatest rivalry of all time. Final question before we leave it for now.

And I know that this feels like maybe an obvious question at first, but if you look into it slightly deeper, Harry, who do you feel came out on top of the Bible? Ooh. That's a real tricky question. I, Bob, if you're going to go on results, I guess, prost did. I don't think you... That's just me sitting on the fence, isn't it?

I don't think you can say someone came out on top. Like we've already said, that they were so different in their approach. But I don't know if you can't. I don't know if you can be like... I think morally maybe Senga like elevating himself because of the way that obviously Prostombed into the visa office and demanded. I mean, yeah, yes, there is that.

There's a political aspect. But then there's Sena that's done. down morally by running Prost off the road. Like, there's, in that sense, they're almost as bad at each other. But again, it's two different approaches, isn't it? It's running your rival off the road, although I guess Prost did in 89, but running your rival off the road and going to the stewards about it. Yeah, I, it's too hard for me to, I don't answer many things, but that is too hard

for me to answer, I think. Okay, Ben, we'll come to you then, because I know that you'll probably give maybe a slightly more definite answer. Who did you feel came out on time? I will give a more definite answer. I think that the winner of the rivalry was shown in the 1991 season, which Senna dominated at McLaren after Prost had left. I think Senna wins the rivalry based on the fact that he stuck with the team,

or he stayed with the team and Prost left. He was almost the last man standing in that sense. and where McLaren were able to have a dominant season in 91, Senna's still there to take advantage of it. Prost as you went through is struggling in an underperforming Ferrari. So I think Senna won the rivalry. Certainly an interesting point you raised earlier in terms of their junior careers and some of the rules and points around that,

it became true in the late 80s in Formula One as well because we saw that you know, you only took your, however, many best races into consideration in terms of the championship standings. Prost wins both the 88 and the 89 seasons if you take into account full points. The only reason Senna wins 88 is because all of Prost's points weren't taken into account because of the rules at the time. So it was really, it could have been very different just based on one rule here or there, where maybe Frost wins both of those championships, cross the one that sticks around at McLaren and Senna goes elsewhere.

But I think just based on Senna being with the team after Pross goes and winning that championship in 91, that for me gives the edge to to earn. It's a good answer. Very fair point. Well, folks,

we've come to the end of our very first short view back to the past. What do you think? Was that a nice chat? Enjoy it? It was a nice chat. And also Sam very kindly rehearsed this before he brought it to us

and said, well, it's only like 25 minutes, an hour and four. Yeah, with debate. I'm just saying it was healthy, healthy conversation. You say we spent 40 minutes. I'm saying that the script, if you just cut all of you out, is about half an hour at max.

Sorry, guys. Sorry about that. We've wasted half an hour of your time. Or not. All right, then. Oh, well, up to opinion. But well put together, sir. I mean, that was very well researched and a great rivalry to look at as the first in this series.

It's like getting good feedback off your teacher. Random applause for Sam. Oh. You're welcome. It's like a good school report. A working soundboard. Hopefully I'll get McDonald's on the way home with a treat. Anyway, folks, let's know what you think.

That is the very first. Obviously, we're going to be looking to a new season. Some of these episodes will be exclusive to Patreon as well. So if you want to hear the entire full season and every rivalry that we're going to be looking at over this season, then you're going to have to subscribe, I'm afraid, but it does massively support us. And we're able to do things like get these new microphones

that went out all along. We've got a great new soundboard. We look jazzy. We're here on YouTube, right? You can see us if you want to get to watch this. And if you wanted to, if you want to get involved in that aspect, Ben is auctioning off, so to speak, the name of his microphone over on social media. Head over to our Instagram, Late Breaking F1 podcast.

Ben's tag up postures his lovely face. And you can name his mic. Most likes on your comment will see the name. There's a great one at the moment on there. Ben. You got any favourites that have come up? Well, I think currently leading the way is Mikey Massey. but there are some great

Mike Schurmacher just based on it being a sure Mike that that's a great one I think the one that probably made me laugh the most was just someone put Spain turn one If it can be as great as Spain Turn 1 it'll be a good mic I want it to be Clive's Pickleckle

That's a sensational name That's got a few votes on it as well Right, good Good. Anyway, that's it from us, folks. Thank you so much for listening. Make sure you do go and check out the Patreon if you'd like to get the full series of these episodes. They're going to be coming out over the next couple months or so.

Also, you can check out the merch store. The links in the description. Thank you, Harry. Join the Discord as well. Lots of chit-chat going over there with over 1700 lovely members. And we're going to be back to our normal proceedings, of course, midweek, because we have got a preview to do of the Australian Grand Prix. Oh, yeah.

Look at that. We're back to racing. Yeah. Good point. Also, things can be fully in control. Again, well, with the intro, you'll still have soundboard. Oh, good. Anyway, so stick around for the action. We're here in video format as well, which is very odd.

Hello. That's it from us, I think. In the meantime, I've been Sammy Sage. I've been Ben Hocking. And I've been Ayrton Prenner. And remember, keep breaking late. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.