The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Should Leclerc sign a FIVE YEAR contract extension with Ferrari?!

Episode Date: December 29, 2023

[Updated audio on 29/12/23] The LB trio are here for the final 'live' episode of the year! They discuss the rumoured long-term deal that would keep Charles Leclerc with Ferrari until 2029, and whether this would be a good move for his F1 career. They also debate Alonso's claim that 2023 has been his best year alongside 2012, Stella's assertion that McLaren won't create false expectations for 2024, and just what Williams' expectations should be for 2024. They finish with a game of F1: Back and Forth... FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. And a very warm welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Harry Ead, Sam Sage, and me, Ben Hocking. The final live episode of 2023. We're back for one more. We've just recovered from the Elbeys. we've actually, again, a bit of a look behind the curtain.

We've double recorded today. So we've just recorded the LBs. We've got to maintain the energy, Sam. How do we do that? Honestly, I've just had to battle with Clives to get him back in the cupboard. And he puts up a fierce fight that man with holds the energy. So he's in there now, but I'm a bit tired. I've got changed because I'm eager to, obviously, it was a disaster.

But we're going to be pumped. We're here to laugh at Ferrari. We've got loads of stuff going on, haven't we been? We're going to be upbeat. Harry's stealing a wine cellar. I don't know what he's up to over there, drink all their bottles. I'm off my face, mate. Absolutely gazeboed.

I think you live like that year on year. I don't think you ever, I'm not off your face. Yeah, I have a question for the room. Is gazeboed the best word for drunk? I think so. Yes. I think, absolutely gazeboed. As a nation, we're very good at putting ode or something like that.

on the end of normal words that then mean you're drunk. Plasted, for example. Trollied. Trollied, yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure there's a Michael McIntyre sketch about that because it gets to like I was utterly car parked, which works. You can be car parked.

Crum crack. Crum crack is one where you're tired actually. Because it rhymes with knackard. Good. Good. Good. So I can only blame myself for going on a tangent as I did ask the question. But we do have some.

F1 to talk about to close out the year. So we've got F1 back and forth, making an appearance later on. James Vows, his comments on expectations for 20203 and how Williams exceeded them. And we look ahead to 2024 and figure out what would be a good result for them next year. Similarly, with McLaren,

trying to keep everyone level-headed going into 2024, but what could they possibly achieve after an encouraging year? Fernando Alonzo, claiming that his 2023 season is up there with his 2012 season. and is one of his best in his F1 career. But let's start out front with Charles Leclair, because there are rumours in Italy

that he might well be looking at signing a long-term extension with the scuderia until 2009. It's a long time for Charles. His current deal is up at the end of 2024, so there is that remaining question as to whether he will stay on with the team or whether he will sign this long-term deal, this report seems to indicate it will be the latter.

Sam? Is it a good idea? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is pure and yamor de novo, which as we all know, in Italian to English, means we go again. Charlotte Clare, the man doesn't want to be free.

He is Stockholm syndrome internalised. Harry's reaction to that. That makes sense. Sorry, witnesses podcast, that makes sense, Harry. Oh, yeah, fair enough. ...of the point of being on this show.

What's the man doing? He's got to be, if you remove Max O'S Staffing from the equation, and perhaps Lewis Hamilton, he's got to be the most in-demand man on the entire grid. You know, him and Landon Norris are probably up there for the two most considerable assets in Formula One. And he has got at any risk of not having a drive.

I think even if he walked away from, Ferrari now, 18, and probably a competitive one at most, would start fighting over that signature to bring him into the car. I do not understand the need to sign a deal for more than two years, let alone potentially five seasons at Ferrari. And what historically has given you this hope, this all-seeing aura that Ferrari are going to turn this all around and suddenly become a title-winning machine in the next two seasons, because let's face it, they've been close twice, maybe three times in the last decade. It's falling apart in continuously.

You've not won anything since Kimmy Riking and won in, what was it, 07. And Michael Schumacher's memory is now children growing up today, don't know who he is. That's how long ago it was, which is horrible to think about. So, Charlotte Clare, why would you think that signing for not one, which can make sense, not two, which is pushing it, but kind of works for the new regulations. But five seasons is what is logically fair when signing a lot. at Ferrari. I don't get it. Just do a plus one year extension and see how it's going, mate. You've got the power, Charlotte Clare. Use it, Sunshine. Because otherwise, I think you're a bit

Dululu. I don't think you get it. I don't think you understand what's going on. But well done to Ferrari's negotiation team, who are clearly the only part of Ferrari that work well, because I encourage and manage to maintain these relationships every single year. I don't get it, but well done. I've just realized something. There are people who are going to be finishing school that have never been alive for a Ferrari win. Uh, yeah. Yes. That's the where we're living now.

That's how... How does depress us at the end of the year like this? Why, Ben? It's Christmas time. Hey, it's on Ferrari. If they had won something, that's that wouldn't be true. That's fair. It all comes back to Ferrari.

What are your thoughts, Harry, on this, on the potential of this deal coming through? Um, yeah, I, you've said this. before, Ben, I think a lot of F-1 drivers now don't back themselves enough. Did you hear that? What is that? What is that? It's a new household appliance at the end of the year. What is it?

Do you know what it is? It's a beer machine. I kid you not. He's gazeboed, everyone. Harry's beer machine. End of year and he's gazeboed. Corsi has got a beer machine off camera. We've just done the LBs.

And for the first time ever, an appliance of Harry's has not made it into the Hall of Fame. And this is revenge. The beer machine has gone, hold my beer immediately and gone, I'm getting involved in this battle. Madness. Have you got a beer? No. I've got water. Great.

Good Lord. This is a great tangent. I'm a great point two minutes ago. It's just in the room with me. I'm not using the beer machine in the room with us. Oh. So, Charlerclair, what was I saying? Yeah, they, yeah, these drivers need to back themselves more. But as you say, Sam, like, Charlotte Claire is a top three or four driver asset. He can afford to back himself a lot, a lot more than other people on the grid can. So, yeah, why, again, this is end of the year content.

We're basing it off a report. But why would he even be considering this? What evidence has he has far given him over the past, how many years he's done that? Four years. What evidence have they given him that this is going to get better? Just, yeah, as you say, Sam, do a one year, do a one year deal. and then see where we are at the end of 2024.

A maximum maybe a two-year deal with a one-year break clause. But yeah, I just find this utterly bizarre. Come on, Charles. You believe in yourself, son. I mean, this rumor has been, and it's tough to know exactly whether it's true or not. But certainly, you know, if we're thinking UK media, Andrew Benson of the BBC has tweeted this out,

which makes me think it's definitely not far-fetched in that that is a reputable source saying that, you know, not confirming it, but saying that it is indeed a heavy rumour. So, Charles, honestly, sorry, Harry, I'm going to have to use your line here. That's right, mate. Getting ready for it. What are you doing? Well done. Come on, Matt.

it's absolutely true that these drivers should back themselves more because 2029 is a long, long time away. If you want to re-sign with Ferrari, so be it, but make it a shorter term deal to see what's going on in the general landscape of F1. I appreciate Ferrari, you can sort of, it is the equivalent of being drunk, I think, looking at Ferrari, because you see all the heritage and the previous wins in other decades where you haven't even been a a live four and, oh, that's a good team. Yeah, I should definitely sign on their long term. But when you actually sober up, you realize, ah, there's not much there, is there? It's, if you look at the last four years, and I mentioned this on a previous episode, last four years,

LeClau's one in one of them. It's not been a great run for Ferrari and LeClau. 2020 was a disaster. 2021 was better, but they were still in contention for third place and definitely not for. their best season was 2022 when they were competitive for 40% of the season and then fell away. And then obviously here in 2023, they've been good enough to compete for a runner-up spot, but obviously nowhere near Red Bull. So three or four seasons to be winless, not a great record overall. And yeah, I think, I think Charles Leclair, there is merit in him backing himself here.

And whilst I don't think there's anything obvious on the table right now, in terms of a move away. We don't know exactly what's going to happen at Red Bull with Sergio Perez's seat. We don't know exactly, you know, how long into Mercedes-Lewis Hamilton intends to go in terms of his career. There are going to be options, certainly in the next couple of years, but 100% between now and 2029. Think back to, you know, that's five years away. Think back to 2019. Could anyone have predicted what F1 would have been like five years from now,

then? No, because it's a complete unknown with new regulations, new drivers coming in, drivers that you haven't even heard of five years ago, and now, you know, like Oscar Piastri, you wouldn't be able to predict five years ago, oh, Oscar Piastri is going to be going to be doing very well in F1 and winning sprint races. There's so many unknowns, that's such a long time in F1 terms, just, no, no, don't do it. No, don't do it. Don't do it. You are a Ferrari cipher. No, no. Please, no. Please, can't go. No. Is there, I know Carlos Seines is obviously the other side of this Ferrari discussion and his current contract is also up at the end of 2024. And we've seen how the two of them have been relatively, well, very closely matched in 2023 and also in 2021 as well. Sam, do you think there's any merit in LeCler wanting to get in there first almost to sort of nail down his position in the the team, knowing that there might still be a struggle for who the number one driver is

if the car is competitive enough to compete for a championship again? I think Charler-le-Cleur holds all the power in this seat as well. I think that if you were, let's say Ghazly and Ockon, right? They are very similar in their careers. They're similar in terms of what they've managed to achieve throughout their career so far. They're very similar age groups. And I think most people would rate them quite similarly across the board in terms of how good they are.

But science and LeCleur are at different points of their. career. There's a bit of an age gap between the two sides being the older driver. LeCleur has always been a Ferrari boy, right, even when he was coming through his junior career and then went to Salba, it's called at the time. We'll get on to that name change. I'm sure at some point in our podcasting career. We're obviously now at Ferrari and, you know, Ferrari have always been LeCleur loyalists. You look at how they treated him against Vettel, for example, in their first season together. There's always being a Lecler preference. I think actually the clerk could use Sainte signing first as a bit of a leverage.

You get even more than what he wants. I don't think Farrow will ever give Carlos Sint a lining his contract that says, you are the de facto number one driver here at Ferrari. And I think the clerk can be confident of that. I don't think it's going to happen. So see how much money is making. See what perks he's getting. See what performance release clause he's got going on.

Because I'm sure there'll be some chatter between agents and whatnot about what's going on. And I use it to elevate yourself. I think the worst thing LeCler can do is rush into a deal before the season has even begun. I think the same for Carlos Sons. I think waiting to at least the summer break before you make a decision. And I only stick a one-year deal on the top. Science is slightly more stick around for a couple of years because you are in the, not the latter stage.

It's not like it's the twilight of his career. But he needs to settle somewhere. He's bounced around a little bit, whereas Lecler has got so much time in hand and so much talent in hand that I do think that he can afford to wait all the way to November. I think if he really wants to, and he still have the power over Ferrari here. So, yeah, no rush. Don't panic about Carlos McClure. Just actually look at your options and make a sensible decision, please.

What do you think, Sarri, is there any benefit to, let's say, it doesn't really matter which one it is, but one of the Ferrari drivers signing on now, and let's say the other one holds out, as Sam mentions to say November time, do you think that there would be any benefit to that because suddenly, even if nothing in the contract is written in, decisions around how the car is going to be developed in the future might well be made with the driver they know is sticking around in mind. What do you have thoughts on that, Harry?

Yeah, I guess they might feel there is some pressure there if one driver is already signed up and ready to go for the next year. But again, I don't know how often I think it happened it used to happen more now than it than it used to but I don't know how often cars are now built around drivers that much I think deciding drivers

suit different types of cars but whether that would be a massive issue I don't know so it doesn't seem like enough of a it doesn't seem like enough of a reason to me for one of these drivers to sign up early

just so they you know have that sort of advantage there because yeah I no doubt there is some sort of advantage, but I just don't think it's worth it for the, if you're going to sign a long contract, just doesn't seem worth it to me. So, yeah, again, just back yourself, guys.

I don't think either driver is in a precarious position within that team. So just they don't need to worry too much at the moment. I would hold out if I was then. Yeah, and I tend to think as well, I mean, this is kind of my view on like money and it might not be seen by the likes of Carlos Sines and Charlotte, Claire. I've got no idea. But also, you know, there might be an argument to try to maximize how much you're getting from this contract. But the way I view it is you're either going to be rich or slightly more rich than rich. Like, you're not going to be, you're not going to be poorly off, are you if you wait out and you cost yourself a couple of, a couple of million? I don't know. It just. just doesn't seem. When you get to that level of earning money, I feel like the accolades are kind of priceless to an extent. So, yeah, I wouldn't, if it was me, I wouldn't factor that in all that much. But having said that, I'm not in that position so I can very easily sit on the

sidelines and say it. Well, in conclusion, what's the LB conclusion? Don't do it, Charles? No, don't do it. Yeah, honestly, Charles, do not do it. Uh, please. Merk is still available. He has not been freed. You can still buy it. It won't come in time for Christmas. But hey, it supports us. Oh, actually, yeah, I've changed my tune. He should stay at Ferrari for a very long time to keep our merch sales up from naught to like four. Hey, loads of you have bought the free LeCler merch, which is more than I thought. Loads is more than I thought. I thought it would be none.

So thank you, Trump, the Sport one. Wear it proudly. Wear it at race tracks if you go to one. Did you see the, and I forgot to speak to you around it. Do you see someone requested of what are you doing bumper sticker? Do we do bumper stickers? I don't know if we can. We could do stickers.

We could definitely do stickers. And you can stick it on your bumper. So, all right, we'll work on that. Just a disclaimer. If it damages your paint work, we are not responsible. And nothing says hunkerlishers like a stick. care. Isn't that right? I think Honkolicius could be another thing that we don't

lean into enough. I agree. Thank you for that, Liv Lafletifie. Recent inductee into the late breaking Hall of Fame. Hall of Famer, Liv Lafletefi, to give him his full official title as of right now. We're going to take our first break of today. On the other side, we're going to be chatting Fernando Alonzo in his 2023 season. So as usual, Fernando Alonzo

likes to comment and analyze his own performance. Some drivers completely stay away from it. Fernando Alonso is at the opposite end of that spectrum, loves to analyze his races. He put together, I don't know if you saw, and this isn't the exact topic we're talking about today, but he was asked what was his best race of 2023, and he gave a list of like five that he thought were his best,

which is just so Fernando Alonzo. Most other drivers would probably just go, I don't know, maybe that one was all right. Fernando Alonzo came prepared with a list of five. But another one of his comments was that he feels his 2023 season was up there with his 2012 season at Ferrari as his best in his F1 career. Harry, you are head of the Fernando Alonzo fan club, so I would expect you to have an opinion on this. Is he right in saying this?

He's had a very good season, has Solonzo. I just don't quite, and this is a compliment to Fernando Alonzo. I just don't think it's as good as his 2012 season. but that 2012 season, I think, is peak. Peak Alonzo, I don't think he can top that. He had a lot of glimpses of 2012, but the consistency throughout the year wasn't quite there as it was. 2012 Alonzo was on it in every single race practice session,

qualifying, whatever you had, he was there. because that Ferrari shouldn't have even, didn't deserve to have a win, let alone be a championship challenger. Look at where Massa was. Well, exactly. So that's how highly I rate that 2012 season, and I'm not saying he's had a bad, bad year this year.

It's been very, very good. It's just not quite as high as that. So, yeah, 20203 has been a great year. And I'd say probably his best year since then. I don't know, maybe 2014 sneaks in, because he was quite good then as well with another garbage Ferrari. but um true

poor poor guy um but yeah i think a 2014 decide i think it's probably equal to that and yeah i think you give him a competitive car and he he will perform i just feel like these days when it's not quite as competitive you know it doesn't always come together whereas before or at

least in 2012 even when the car wasn't competitive for nanda or onza was still competitive so yeah it's I get why he's saying it. It's definitely, I think, is one of it, or if not his best since that year, but I don't think it's an equal to. Do you think it would be valid to say that 2012 was a little bit more condensed

to the point where driver ability was able to put him over the top in some of these races, whereas at least the back end of this season, that Aston Martin just wasn't any more capable of what he achieved in it? Yeah, I think that's fair. in like the Ferrari was closer to the top for most of the time. Yeah, even though it was,

I think we can all agree, away from, say, Red Bull, but at the same time, I don't think, I don't know, it felt like 2012, we always reference it as one of the best seasons of all time, and part of that reason was how condensed the field was, and when you get a more condensed field, driver ability

just matters that much more. Whereas I think some of the races in the back half of this season were, I don't know, felt like a 10 out of 10 Alonzo wouldn't have been able to get that car above P8 or, you know, some of those finishes. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I think that's fair. That's fair to say. You know, he, Brazil springs to mind as one where he made the difference there, you know, when the car was a competitive. But you're right. I think a lot of times he could still be driving as well as he was in 2012, but it doesn't make the car go fast enough to be above a P8. so it's a fair it's a fair point and like yeah i in himself he's probably feels like he is and

is a more complete driver than he was um 11 years ago but i just think that season he put together they were so good that it's it's hard to it's hard to match it sam what are your thoughts do you think that he is you know can he can he say this that 2023 is on a par with 2012 i'm just a bit baffled by this philando like 20203 was an amazing season for him and it was his best since he came back to Formula One, of course. And the Askin, whilst it wasn't the perfect car, he maximised everything he could out of it. And it should definitely go down as a massive achievement for him. He should look at this season fondly and proudly. He was phenomenal. But yes, 2012, as you've all referenced, is sensational. That season was so close in car performance, that the drive

performance makes a massive difference. I think Fernando is at his best when he has to step outside the car's comfort zone. He has to extract something that, you know, the normal good driver, do, but he isn't the normal good driver. He's a great driver. He can extract somewhere an extra 5% that makes a difference. 2014 was also brilliant. But I don't get why there isn't any love going to 2006 here. That second title that he picked up, you went toe to toe with a fully powered Michael Schumacher in a Renault that was, you know, it wasn't a dominant car, and especially towards the back end of that season, it wasn't amazing. But when he finished races, he's only only only had two retirements across that whole season.

He only finished off the podium twice all season. And he beat Michael Schumacher at the best. And that Ferrari was good. You know, Fisichkella finished fourth, I think with about half the points. The guy was phenomenal in 06. And I just, while I think 23 is a really good year for him, it doesn't even rank in the top three for me. I think 12, 06, 14, then probably 05, and then maybe.

I mean, I arguably put the season up when he was up against Hamilton as well, and 08 up there as a better. season than 2023. It's no sight of Fernando that he's got this many seasons that you can accredit to him as brilliant racing seasons because he's fantastic. But I think he's been a overly complimentary of just how good 23 was. As brilliant as it was, I wouldn't put it down as an all-time year for him, which he seems to think it is. Yeah, I think probably the reason for him picking 2012 and 23 out specifically versus say 05 and 06, because I think he could probably relate more to 2012 this season than he could 05 and 06 in that he had cars that were capable of winning

championships and a lot of races in 05 and 06. And I feel like 12 and 23. Whilst it might not be identical, I think they are somewhat similar in that he is trying to, I don't know, outperform a very good but not great car because I think you're right that 05 and 06 as standalone seasons definitely are up there. And even like you look at a few of the other ones as well that followed on from that. 08 again, he destroyed Nelson P.K. Jr. in 2008. And with the greatest respect to P.K. Jr., not the greatest driver in F1 history, but he did a wonderful job again in not the best car, the best car out there.

Apart from Singapore, it was very good at Singapore. I don't remember why. Outside of that, though. 05 and 06. And you're right to put a lot of reference on 06 because that was a very good. I think that is an underrated season of Fernando Alonzo's, even though he won the championship. And even 05, because I know Kimmy Reichen and in 05 had a lot of bad luck, but Reikinen had more experience of fighting at the top at that point in their respective careers versus Alonzo. And Alonzo held it together, so he deserves a lot of respect for that year too.

if we're looking at just 2023 versus 2012, I would agree with what both of you have said in that 2012 does take it. And that's more putting credit on 2012 than it is throwing shade at 23. You know, it's not a massively unfair assessment because he has had a great year. And, you know, we've, we analysed his performance in our top 10 driver rankings on our most recent Patreon episode, which I would definitely advise you check out because we go in a little bit more depth. about Alonzo and how he stacks up versus some of the other great drivers from this season.

But six podiums from the first eight races really, I don't know, his intent was shown very early on, multiple second place finishes, really should have won at Monaco. And you're right to reference Brazil because that was a very 2012-esque performance in that that car should not have been there,

and yet it was, because Fernando Alonzo was in the car. It wasn't a perfect season. we do have to reference some of the questionable moments. So Singapore, he had that. Do you remember Singapore? It was a very amateur mistake. He crossed over the pit line to go into the pits and got a penalty for that,

which really cost him. Spy of that crash in the spring race. I think he didn't care, but he still crashed. And even though the car wasn't very good, in Mexico, he was, he was bad. And I know both of you referenced the fact that they might have just retired the car in end to save a bit of face rather than anything else. So there were low moments of the year, but overall, great season, agree that it's the best since he's come back to F1, but one or two touches below 2012.

Well done us, a well-formed discussion. Doesn't happen a lot on this show. Before we close off the discussion, Sam, 2024, what's left in the locker? Like, has he got another season equivalent to this? in him? Can he go any further beyond what he was able to achieve? In terms of performance, if we're taking standings out of it, just in terms of his own performances, is there anything above what he's already shown? If, let's say, in a hypothetical world, the Ascom Martin is a race winging car, I think that old dog gets a second wind. I think if he slips a championship,

there's a chance. I don't, I actually think he'd still be the underdog. I think if, for example, the Red Bull and the Ascom Martin were equal, I think for Stappen probably takes it toe to toe across a whole season. But I think he's got getting him to take race wins still. If the car is available, I think he's got getting him to take race wings. I don't think he's lost it yet. I don't think it's out of his hands yet. I don't think he's declined enough.

I still take a longstop over probably 95% of the F1 grid currently in my team with the ability he's still displayed. So whilst I don't expect him to go on a wing any more titles or anything like that, I think if a door opens, Fernando Alonso would be the first to even say himself that he'd be the first person to run through that door and take whatever he can. And I think he's capable of doing it. I still think it's there. What do you think, Harry? Yeah, I think with Alonso and what we've seen this year, he, there are, as you reference, there are bad races or not great performances.

But they only come when the car isn't that good or not at least not the most competitive. I think to all of his podiums this year, I can't think of it, apart from in Saudi where he didn't line up on the grid properly, which ultimately didn't actually cost him anything in the end anyway. He was faultless and it feels like when the car's there, when as you say sound, there's a sniff of a successful result. It just suddenly switches Alonso to like that next level.

So if it is wins rather than just podiums next year, I think, yeah, he'll, I think he can. Consistency over a season, I guess, is the only question mark if it's a championship challenge, for example. But I think, yeah, if the car's competitive, Alonzo will be competitive. Yeah, I agree with you. I think that early run in the season just proved what he can do when the car's working with him. Because, yeah, there were plenty of mistakes this year, but you're right. they were mostly in races where, you know, it would have cost him a sixth place finish or a fifth place finish. There was, there were very rarely any errors when there were podiums on the line,

which is what you need when you're in that sort of a car. So I'm interested to see what he'd be capable of in 2024, but certainly there's a lot left in him. I think that this season can confirm that. He's got like a beach ball. Nothing in it. We're going to take our next break. I'm sorry. That's great. You just complimented ourselves for putting together a really good discussion. And then at the last hurdle, like literally the last hurdle of 110 meters, you've just tripped. My face is dragging along the floor. Over the line.

Oh, God. Good. We'll leave you with the impression of Fernando Alonzo as a beach ball. And we'll be back in a few minutes with discussion on McLaren. Okay, moving on to McClaron. A few comments from Andrea Stella to close out the year. Basically, just keeping everyone calm ahead of 2024. We know how great McLaren were in the second half of the season

versus the first half of the season. And he's just a bit worried about false expectations for 2024 being there undoing. Sam, can you understand this approach first and foremost? Yeah, I mean, he's gone to the School of Toto Warfare. He's learned how to manage PR and he's gone. we will never be good in the hope that actually they're going to be very good. Which I think realistically, from McLaren's point of view, unlike Mercedes, when they're at that point, one, maybe three world titles back to back to back.

This makes a lot of sense. They have formed a bit of a reputation for starting seasons slowly and having to ease their way into them, which has cost them, really. It's cost the big time. It's the last couple of years, if they were being as good as they were at the end, like at the start, there could have been chances for second place in the championship. They reached the ability within that team. have got the driver line up to execute that if it all comes together in a perfect storm.

And I think Stella's being quite sensible here. He's saying, you know, we've got this new setup of our three pillars of the three kind of leading areas. Piastri's still learning the game. Norris is ready to go, but we've got to make sure we keep him the car to do so. There are a lot of moving parts. There's a lot of variables here. I think he's right to kind of just quash the over-the-top expectations that all of a sudden fans think we might be like a challenge for a title here. it was a very good year at the end for McLaren,

but it certainly wasn't faultless, and there certainly is plenty of room for improvement. So as a team boss, he has got every right to come out and say this. I can't blame him for it. I think it's the right move. I think you let Zach Brown do the old chatting up. You let him do the marketing hype,

but Stella's the man on the ground who's having to give the team orders, and this is sensible. Feet on the ground, get the results first, and then we can big ourselves up once it's done. Harry, do you agree with this approach from Stella? Yeah, I do. I'm with Sam. Look, they could look at the back end of this year and go, well, next year we're going to be great.

But as you mentioned, Sam, they've got a bit of a habit of starting seasons off badly. So, you know, there's a risk of if you hype it up now and start next year badly again, then you're going to look like full. So it makes sense to me. Why, yeah, why create an expectation of something. You know, they've, the expectation is sort of they're already based off how they were at the end of this year. So you don't need to go around saying that. It's there already. It's in their mind. So yeah, I like it. It's not, not being too brash. Get the results first. And then, and then as you say, Sam, you can, you can, you can make some expectations. But, yeah, I

get this. Sorry, my, my camera just turned off. And it said battery, exhausted. Exhausted. He's tired. That's what I'm. I did a few, few races, a few episodes ago.

We all are, mate. Just want to shout out. Shout out the main camera here. Casadelle Sage. Never let me down. Never let me down. Never, ever, mate. Didn't have to keep

pausing the live show to just stop recording and recording again. Yeah. Why jeanke over there, exhausted boy. Harry's camera clapping back. Love it. Yeah, we also won't tell the OG camera

that I am looking to replace it probably in the new year. I'm sorry, folks. I'm just, just, you know. That's great. That's all right. End of year. We'll all wait on you.

Yeah, as always. The thousands of us will wait on you, Harry. It's fine. Okay. Technical difference. in the vineyard Did you hear that beep folks That was the

Another item beeping there for Not the beer machine though The camera yeah well I don't care what it is mate There are four things onto the beer machine Four kegs Fadill Ferry else The festive season

We're getting jolly Did you have anything else you wanted to say Ari Are you pretty much done I cannot remember, so let's say I was done. Good. Sounds good. Yeah, we were talking about McLaren, weren't we? It makes sense.

It makes sense that they are tempering expectations for 2024 because you're right, they do have this habit of starting incredibly slowly. What is good news for McLaren, and it's not quite to the same degree, but it's the old problem that Red Bull used to have. Red Bull did it quite often, sort of 2017-28, 18 period of time. So only 2017. There was a weird stat before Max Verstappen started winning

absolutely everything. Before he went on that run, there was a weird stat of how many like the percentage of race wins he had in like October and November. And it was way higher than any point of the year. Used to be grades at Malaysia, Mexico, Brazil. He had a couple of wins there. Abu Dhabi's been pretty good at the whole time. But early in the season, there weren't many race wins for him. Obviously, that's completely changed with the last two years. So if basically, what I'm saying is McLaren used that blueprint, should be all right. I mean, Red Bull are pretty good, aren't they? So I'd probably go ahead and use that blueprint. Yeah. So I think in case that doesn't all come together for them, it does make sense for their

expectations to just be sensible going into 2024. And actually, I think the last couple of races of 23 should maybe just give them reason to be cautious as well, because whilst they didn't fall off a cliff at the end of this season, but they weren't quite as good as what they were in Qatar, Japan sort of period of time, where they were very comfortably second best. I don't think we've got to see their real pace in Las Vegas to be fair to them, because Lando Norris crashed out early and Piastri had too much work to do after qualifying. But I think there were a couple of races to end the year where they just weren't quite as good as they were in like the autumn stretch. So maybe that's one of the reasons again,

why Stella's just being a bit cautious going into next year. Yeah, I'd like to think that they were developing next year's car at that point and kind of hoping to mitigate the start of 23 by doing it differently for 24. If they turn up to Bahrain and they are 15th and 18th, I swear to God, McLaren. If I have to trot out the 17th DNF stat again, the old workhorse, she's getting tired. Come on. Do you think second place is a realistic expectation for them next year, Sam, even if they don't come out and say it?

Yeah, I think so. I think from the summer break through to the end of the year, they were pretty much the second best team more commonly than not. And I think, you know, Landon and Norris, as we've said so many times, scored the most points other than Vestappen for a long part of this season. It's amazing how far up Norris managed to get in the driver's title fight anyway, You're assuming that the first seven races, the car was non-existent for them.

So second is feasible. They've easily got the ability to match Ferrari, McLaren, to beat Ashton Martin, Al-Pi-Nong in the running. Maybe they'll be smug again, who knows. But I can't see it. I can't see it being a factor. So, yeah, McLaren have got what it takes. They just need to keep it together for one whole season,

not only do, you know, 15 of the 23 races. Yeah, I imagine McLaren are sort of leading the charge on the, F1 calendar being stripped back a bit because then they'd have the right number of races for how well they operate. Harry, do you think second place is a realistic expectation for McLaren, given what they've done? Yeah, I think if they can continue the form that they had at the end of this year, or the second half of this year, then yeah, why not? Because they were well in the mix most races with the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari. So yeah, I don't, I don't, I, I don't, I, I, I don't, I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be a target as long as the car continues the form it's had at the end of 2020.

I think this is something we've discussed on the podcast before, but it's almost like the hardest step to make is from like, I don't know, third up to like second and first. We see teams quite often go from 10th to 7th like Williams have done this season. and sort of seventh to fourth. And I'm not saying that's not an easy step to make, but it's a far easier step than that, almost that last step of getting into true competitiveness. And McLaren have experienced it themselves as well in that they had the awful Honda years,

which everyone likes to forget, which is a good thing. And then they kind of improved to the point where they got to 2020, and they were competing with Ferrari to be third place in the Constructors' Championship. And at that point, you felt like they were on the press, of something great, and then it didn't materialize. Now, I appreciate they've got a brand new structure, a way of working now, and arguably they are closer to, you know, they're closer to

second now than they were at the end of 2020. But it is just that can you take that last step before other teams start catching up again? I'm intrigued to find out. And I think second place is a realistic expectation. But as much as we laugh at Ferrari, and as much as Mercedes have not had a good time of it the last couple of years. That's two very established, difficult outfits to beat. Beating one of them is an achievement. Beating both of them, that would really be an achievement. So I can understand why Stella's not coming out and saying, second place is ours based on the second half of last year. Easy. You can take it to the bank and cash it early. Staying on the theme of expectations, but going a little bit further down the grid to Williams,

James Vowse has said that Williams exceeded expectations in 2023. Sam, I'll ask you the first question. Do you agree with that? With the expectation, it's probably yes. But 2024, what would be a good step on from here? Yeah, I mean, yes, I do agree that they exceed the expectations. Seventh place, I don't think was ever really fully on the cars for the mindset of what they came into 2023 with. And again, the total opposite from James Vowse here, who must be the most open and honest man of,

all time. He must have zero marital problems, marital problems because, you know, that man never lies. I'm trying, mate. I'm trying. Ben, Ben is the marital problem. Ben is the issue at home. The man never lies. He never high secrets and he could not be more

honest and truthful with everything he says. So, you know, the guy comes out and says it exactly how it is. It's the most confusing thing in the world because you know exactly what he's going to say and he delivers. No, they did exceed expectations. Now, for In 2024, I imagine, Val's pretty wants to stay along the same mindset and the same roadmap that he probably had in his mind going into the 2023 season, actually more to solidify

mid-table running. It's more to make sure that the likes of Albon are happy at the team because, and we discussed this in our Patreon special episode, our top 10 drivers of the season, Albon for all of us, was within our top 10 quite convincingly. And I think that's the case for a lot of people who are listening as well, that he's a real asset for Williams. He is something that can't be let go. He can't be tempted away if they want to carry on building a real solidified foundation to success over the next few years. And I think it's less about exact finishing position in the championship and how close they

actually are relative to the top. If Williams finished seventh or even eighth again, but actually on average, they're only, I don't know, 0.3 a lap away from, let's say, Red Bull leading, rather than 0.5 a lap away where they were in 2023. That's a very strong step forward. for a team like Williams. That shows promise. So I think Vows is trying to keep his feet on the ground, but he's allowed to celebrate the success. And he's doing what McLaurin should do end of next year,

if they do get second in the championship, that is to go, hey, we were level-headed. We had to get some stuffing order. And we delivered more than what we thought. Fantastic. But Vowles is sensible, and he knows he's building something for the future. He needs to make sure he's continuing to take those calm, simple steps to get there and not let people get their heads in the clouds,

because otherwise you'll disappoint stakeholders, you'll disappoint people who want to advertise on the car, and drivers like Albon might tell me and they go, hey, you promised me fourth in the Constructors Championship, and we're seventh again, and that wouldn't be great for relationships. So I think he's hanging in the situation exactly how it should be handed. A reminder to everyone that if you haven't listened to our episode

reviewing our predictions yet, which we did last week, I'd absolutely advise you to. And the reason I plug that now is because we, all predicted Williams would finish last this season. So they exceeded all of our expectations quite comfortably. Well done, us. In terms of James Vowles and Williams' expectations for 2024, I think you make a lot of good points there, Sam, in Nuts.

There is a version of events where they do not move at all in terms of the Constructors' Championship and have a great year. That is entirely possible. It depends on what the likes of Alpine and Aston Martin do, and whether they drop back at all or move forward. But if they are, you know, they could easily be seventh again, but double their points,

which might well be, but that might well constitute a successful season for Williams based on where they're at now. I would worry less about position and more about pace. Equally, there is a version of events where they could move up to sixth in the championship, and also it's not a fantastic year. That is, I don't think that would happen,

but it is possible. So I would look overall, they've got this long-term objective. They want to be fighting at the front again. And that should be front and center of any discussion they're having. If there is a particular concept or a way to go with the current car that might well be better in the short term, but not in the long term. Williams need to remember what that long-term goal is and stay away from it. It's very easy to do in the world of F1 as well. You get mounting pressure from stakeholders.

you need to perform now, now, now is really easy to take almost the easy way out and make these short-term decisions in the hope that you can gain a bit more prize money in the current year. It doesn't work long-term. The teams that are on top are there for a reason, and that's because they have this long-term focus in mind. It's why McLaren made their structural changes earlier in the year to look ahead for future years. It's the reason Mercedes and Red Bull have been historically so successful. Williams need to, in the face of everything else, stick to that long-term goal.

And then I'm not saying it doesn't matter where they finish in 2024, but as long as they're closer to the end goal, that constitutes a successful season for me. Harry, what are your thoughts on Williams heading into 24? Yeah, I fully agree with what you guys have said. It's, yes, seventh has exceeded their expectations, as we have already proved,

they exceeded our expectations as well. And so it's been a good year for Williams. But as you said, Sam, I think, yeah, even if they came seventh again next year, if they are closer, and speaking of that end goal, but if they're getting closer to the front, maybe it's a, you know, they were a hard fought seventh and they just missed out on sixth. But that's where they need to be. Obviously going backwards is worse.

But I think if they were the same as they, were this year, sort of pace-wise, and I think that's not great. But, yeah, again, I think James Vals, James has already said this, hasn't it? Because when they were, you know, fighting for seventh, which they almost lost at Alfortaury, he was saying, you know, it doesn't matter too much if they do, because that isn't the ultimate goal, end goal.

And I think, yeah, we love James Vals, as has already been mentioned here. But I think he's fully aware that finishing seventh, or finishing six is not where he wants Williams to be or anyone who's invested in Williams where they want them to be. So yeah, it's just going to keep progressing from here, basically. Complete side note on this. But it is, I think, encouraging and a good thing for F1 as a whole

that we can talk about a team that's finished seventh place having such optimism to get towards the front in that if you look back to F1 even 10 years ago, any team in seventh, you're looking at that and saying, well, that's a five-year rebuild right there, isn't it? Because there was such a gap between certainly the midfield and the back of the grid. Now it's almost like we don't have a midfield of back of the grid, per se. You could argue that bottom four teams kind of form the back of the grid. But when you've got Williams consistently scoring points and you've got Al-Fatari

who are really strong in the second half of this year, Hasse might not have the race pace, but they've got great quality pace to make it into Q3 consistently, that's way better than any other quote unquote back markers were in the previous era of F1. I think it's a good thing overall. I'd argue even three years ago that we had a significant backmarker set. Sure. Yeah. Where we had Hansa Williams fighting each other a minute and a half off the front runners of the grid. And now, you remember when you used to get races where, you know, 17 drivers were lapped?

I mean, Lesford's having an absolute belter where he's, you know, the most dominant driver of all time. How often we're seeing even 12th, 13th place a lap behind them anymore? It really is closing up. Absolutely. I would agree with that. Okay, let's go for our final break. We've got F1 back and forth right after this. Will the soundboard work?

That's a good question, though. With it being the final proper episode of the year of December, that means we've got some patron birthday shoutouts could do. If you didn't know, top tier patron members get a birthday shoutout as part of their perks. And we've got two in December. T-Rex, December 15th,

happy birthday and Mike Bridgfield in December 30th, happy birthday. Also, Brad the 17th of November, giving you a shout out because it was entirely my fault that you were forgotten off the list. So a late happy birthday, but a happy birthday. I hope you have a wonderful birthday, a lot of you. And for those who have subscribed, we've got some more for the next year. Merry Christmas. Happy birthday. Let's move on. Now the biggest question of today. Will the soundboard work? Here I go as I press F1 back and forth jingle on the old soundboard. It had to get one last laughing for this year, didn't it?

Oh. All right. Harry, you give it a go now, yeah. Okay. No, no. That's not doing the noise. Nope. Oh, God, I don't miss this soundboard at all.

Why doesn't it work? I don't know. Well, I'll tell you, Sam, Sam, you pressed record on this, didn't you? Uh, yes. Yes. Maybe you hold the power. Yes, go on, son.

Here we go. I've just found it on the media. Um, there is, live. We turn the volume down slightly so we don't deaf and everyone. Uh, here we go. I'm pressing playing three, two, one. I can't hear it. God, damn it.

Um, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, yeah, shall I just do it. You know it's going to start. Yeah, go on. F1. Backang four, it's F1. Backang forth, it goes backwards. There goes four.

It's F1. Backang four. F1. Beautiful. Great bass rhythm. I'm glad he didn't play, because that was better. Sure. Also, it is 100% going to start randomly playing

midway through this game. It's like it takes three hours to have. Yeah. Oh, man. Okay, F1 back and forth. So Sam and Harry will compete in this game where there are 20 correct answers to a question. They'll keep going back and forth

until one of them can't think of a right answer or gets it wrong. Today's category, I want you to name the top 20 points scorers in F1 history who haven't. won a driver's championship. Oh. Oh, God.

Okay. And I've actually got the ones from 21 to like 28 written down as well. So if you've got a near miss, I'll know about it. Harry, do you want to kick us off? Shaul LeClair. Shao LeClair. Charlerler is a correct answer on 1,074 points. He ranks fifth.

I'm really annoyed that you picked Charleclair there, Harry. I'll go with the boat himself, Vautry Boutas. And that is the number one answer on the board with 1,797 points. Of course, for anyone wondering, this is massively weighted towards current drivers because of the existing point system in place. Harry, back to you. Sergei Perez. And he is number two on the list,

1,486 points. Sam? Carlos Sines. Carlos Sines is a correct answer. He is seventh on the list with 982.5 points. Harry. Yeah.

Daniel Ricardo. Daniel Ricardo is third on the list. 1,317 points for him. Back to you, Sam. A vague question, Ben. I'm not asking for a hint here. How many are in the kind of the current last decade of Formula One and how many is it split behind that last decade?

Is it severely weighted to the last 10 years of Formula One? over half are in the last 10 years, if not a little bit more. So you're playing along at home if you're going to Formula One. There's a chance you can get quite a lot of these. I'll go for Rubens Barrakello. Rubens Barakello, after mentioning current drivers and going for a not current driver, is correct. He is eighth on the list, 658 points. Why are you so rogue with that?

Why did you make me feel like I was about to immediately lose? No, I meant you, Sam. Are there all this side of the decade? Yes, most I are. Okay, Ruben Sparichello. I'm going to go right. Immediately. Back to you, Harry. Lando Norris?

Lando Norris is a correct answer. He's ninth on 633 points. Sam. Harry, have you said, Nick Heigfeld? No. Nick Heidefeld. Man who sits under a tree.

Man who sits under a tree, but not enough points to get on the list. You'll be delighted to know as well. He was a near miss. 259 points puts him 24th. I think these games are boring now. I reckon we should quit doing them. What?

Again, why did you not go for someone this decade. Oh, I'd just like having fun. Let's see what other names we can get out of this then. Harry, back to you. Nico Holkenberg? Holkenberg is a correct answer. 530 points puts him 11th.

Esther Bang Ockon. Ockon is a correct answer. 422 points puts him 13th. Harry. sausages, big hazel. And he, of course, they're next to each other on this list. Gassie's 14th. Sure.

I didn't realize that until you said them back to back. But yeah, they're next to each other on the list. Sam, back to you. I can't believe I'm going to use this man's name. But Lance Stroll. No, he's 23rd. He's above mouse. It's under a tree.

Oh, that's horrible. By nine points he is, yeah. Okay. Harry? Oh, I've got a name in mind that. I'm stupid for not saying. Who else? Oh, actually.

Can't think of it. No. Yeah, he's on it. Okay. Good, good stuff, Sam. Who else has been good, but not that good? Good not great. Good luck.

Have you not great. Oh. Why can't think of anyone else? Oh, Danny Kaffia. Oh, yeah. Kviyat is not a correct answer. I didn't write his name down either, so I think he was like 30th or something like that,

but no, not Danny Kavir. There's only one more current driver. George Russell. George Russell is that man, 469 points, puts him in 12th. Harry? I've got two names left. How many?

if we not got tipped off? Nine. All right, I've got two that I think of definites. I'll go for Alex Albon? No, Alex Albon is not on the list.

He was just said there's only one driver that is current left in the top 20. That's also a good point. Oh yeah, valid point. Felipe Massa. Felipe Masa.

overall 1,167 points. You can have to change that one, the 08 championship it gets for, you know. Oh, yeah, sorry. That's a wrong answer. Sorry, Sam. Oh, I'm out of game. I'm wrong again.

What was the other one you had? Mark Weber. Mark Weber was the other one that went over a thousand points, so a thousand and forty seven point five points. Oh, that's rough. Now, I've got nothing else left now. Any random shouts on the other seven? Oh, it's going to be so obvious as well.

That's what's going to frustrate me. In fairness, of the seven answers, you've got 10th place, and then the other six are the last six. So only one, I would say, is obvious of that lot. Go on, Ben, running through. Okay. 10th place on the list, David Coulthard, 535 points.

How do we miss him, Sam? Well, if he was a better rival, it'd be more of an obvious answer, I'm afraid. But there we go. And then if we're running down from 15th to 20th, Roman Grosjean, 391 points, Gerhardt Berger, who is now my nemesis, 385 points. I'm sure that's correct. You've got to be a patron subscriber to understand that one, folks, I'm afraid. Ralph Schumacher, 329 points.

One Pablo Montoya, 307 points. Carlos Reuterman, 298. and then the last name on the list was Ricardo Petrazi on 281. A few of the other near misses, so Fizzichella was 21st, 275, then Kubitsa, Stroll, Heidfeld, Yano Trilly, Lazy, Jacques Lafitte, and Alex Albin were the next ones I've had written down. Jack Lafitte.

Yeah, he wasn't there. Jacques Lafitte was, but not Lafite. Jacques Lafite is always overshadowed by the fact that Sam 30 seconds later said Jabui. Lafita is funny on its own. French names I cannot say at all.

Arnuz, anyone I could get. Hey, you've nailed that, to be fair. I knew that one. We... Ocon, you've got that one nailed down. And ghastly, I tend to do a right on.

True. True. Or Prost as well tends to go, okay. That's quite British sounding, I would say. No more than two syllables. One syllable. One syllable.

Oh, good. Oh, good. All right. Sam, if you wouldn't mind, get us out of here, please. Folks, it is our last full episode of the year, but we do have two very special episodes coming up for you over the Christmas break. Well, we put our feet up. We plan for 20204 and we can come back even bigger, stronger,

and sillier for the new year, I'm sure. Make sure you're tuning in for those. It's going to be a fun mix of our best games. best podcast moments that Kirstie has just put in the Discord that you can get involved with. You can nominate your favorite moments, discussions, jokes, important bits that are all going to get cut up and put into another new year special. And then we'll be back with loads of different plans for 2024. We are going to be late, big breaking.

That's what's going to happen for the new year. We're going, we're going large. Large breaking maybe works even better, actually. Follow us on that disc, the link to the Giscreppy. Patreon is available and we're doing our final Patreon episode. Ben and I will be doing that. recording that tomorrow actually Ben, right? Am I correct in that?

Yes, tomorrow, but also two days ago. Oh, yes. That's how time works on this show. Yeah. Yeah, so that's happening or has happened, and you will hear it, which is fantastic. Who knows? Follow us on late breaking up on all social media and subscribe to the yubtubs.

We're over 5K now, unless someone has subscribed at the time that I've said this, which is likely. We love you all. Happy holidays. Thanks for everything. And in the meantime, I've been Samuel Sake. I've been Ben Hocking. And I've been one syllable, Sam.

I remember. Keep breaking late. Bye. Merry Christmas, y'all. This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.