The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Was Antonelli's F1 debut a MISTAKE?

Episode Date: October 13, 2024

The LB boys are here on your last non-F1 Sunday before the triple header! They discuss Wolff's misjudgement of Monza pressure on Antonelli's debut, Toyota's return to F1 with Haas partnership, and Andretti stepping down as Andretti Global CEO. This episode also features an interview with special guest and motor racing journalist Kevin Eason! They finish with a game of Order Please... You can pre-order The Times Speed: The History of Formula 1 World Championships by Kevin Eason HERE FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League BUY our Merch EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. Welcome to the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Harry Ead, Sam Sage, and me, Ben Hocking. I'll tell you what, Sam, we've done over 450 episodes at this point, which means we have spoken to each other at pretty much every hour of the day. I tell you, Saturday morning episodes, though, pretty rare. thing from our side.

Yeah, woke up, saw you lot. And I have to get used to this because we're about to spend 10 straight days with each other. So, hey. Where? Oh, did you go, we're going to Texas. Ah, should have told me.

On Monday, maybe, we... Yeha! Correct. Yeha is the only response to that. Live show coming up, buzzing. So many good things are going to happen. Yeah, this is the last UK podcast we'll do for...

Ever. We're not coming back. I'm not coming back. The opposite of, um, whatever his name was from Wolf of Wall Street. You know that I'm not leaving. It's the opposite. I'm not coming back.

Serious note on next week, as referenced, we will be in Austin. You've probably heard that a thousand times at this point. But I know it's mentioned on the last episode. There will be a little bit of a difference in the episode schedule for the next week or so. The preview that we're doing, of course, is our live show. That will come out a day later than usual. So if you're there on Wednesday and you're like, where is it it's not going to be there Thursday for this preview it's unlikely we'll do any

sprint or quality reviews this weekend coming up but we will be giving our condensed views on social so make sure you are following us on all the appropriate channels and then the race review on Sunday there will be a race review but it will again likely be a day later I think we're recording that on the Monday for those that are subscribed to patreon power rankings that will be out as usual, no difference there. Also, we said this last year and we still have people message asking where it was. So if you do it this year, we're going to call you out. I will fight you one.

I'm going to name and shame you. First person to say, where's the podcast on Wednesday night? We ain't afraid of a doc's boy. You'll be thrown into the ring immediately. Right. On with this show. We've got a lot to talk about. We've got Michael Andretti leaving Andretti global.

So it's just global now. I assume. That's how things work. Hasse and Toyota, an unlikely partnership that was announced just a couple of days ago. A little bit on Kimmy Antonelli. We do have a special guest coming up on our second segment. So more on that after the break. But we'll start with some comments from Toto Wolf regarding Kimmy Antonelli.

Of course, he's going to be racing for the team next year. Toto Wolf admitted that Mercedes put unnecessary pressure on him by debuting him at his home race in Monser. of course, that's where he did FP1. At the time, he was being considered for the 2025 Mercedes seat, and it was made official the day after. Despite already testing Mercedes cars, this was his first official FP1, and it ended rather disastrously when he crashed at Parabolica,

hitting the wall with a 52G impact. Toto Wolf said, I wouldn't say it was a mistake, but I think we weren't completely right in assessing the pressures that he could find himself under. He's been brilliant in testing. He's never put a single foot wrong in the many thousands of kilometers

that he's done, but it's a different ballgame if you're an Italian driver, you're 18 years old in Monza, and it's your first opportunity. Maybe if we had considered that as a risk factor against the set of data we had from him, probably it would have been wise to give him an FP1 that would have been in a totally different time zone to Italy. Did Sam Mercedes underestimate maybe the pressure that he was going to face? I mean, in hindsight, stacking up your newly just turned 18-year-old rookie driver putting them out on their home Grand Prix. And obviously, telling him in advance, he would have known this,

that his contract was going to be announced between practice sessions. Probably he wanted to have a better like send off. He wanted to have a better like, you know, breaking onto the scene. Look, I'm the young king on the block. I've smashed FP1. I'm one of the fastest going,

you know, beat Lewis Hamilton in my time, whatever he was trying to do. I'm sure he wanted to come in with a bang after he knew all the details of, you know, contract being revealed. He's going to be a Formula One. driver. I think he probably will get to have a big flag in the sand at his home Grand Prix, even if it was only going to be a minor one at the start of the weekend. It is a lot of pressure

for the young kid. Regardless, I still think he just crashed because he just crashed. I think you could have told him we're going to parade you around the ring like some kind of hometown hero, and that crash may or may not have happened regardless. Whether you told him nothing beforehand, I think that crash could still happen regardless. I just think maybe what they should have done is just told him, please take it easy. Please don't let the car. It's okay that if you're not very quick, it's only practicing,

you're just turned 18. That's all right. It's not going to define. You're not going to take the contract away from you and rip it up in front of your very eyes because you weren't very quick. Maybe that was where the pressure came from. But the crash definitely wasn't ideal

to announce yourself into the world of Formula One. It's not how anyone wants to. It's like meeting the in-laws, tripping over the door, step and face plank at the table. You don't really want to do that. It's not ideal. You just want to walk through the door and say,

hello, look at me. I'm amazing. So, yeah, I think that, they probably piled on a little bit, a little bit too much pressure with the fact that at home Grand Prix, big team, big signing, contracting and getting straight after the practice session, didn't really go to plan.

It was a little bit embarrassing, I think, for everyone involved. Was this underestimating from Mercedes, Harry, should they've picked another FP1 to debut him up? I think potentially, yeah. And also, I think their sequencing of how they announced everything was probably just a bit mismanaged. The way it went, as Sam just referenced, you know, crashing and then being announced that's his entrance as an F1 driver.

You know the top gear episode where Jeremy Clarkson drives a Robin Reliant? And like, he just rolls it down the hill on the side. But he just like appears into frame on its side. That's effectively Kimmyant. That's a great analogy. Well, that. What a great episode. It's a good episode.

But that's kind of how it went for him. I think a maybe don't, every, every home GP is extra pressure for a driver. The Italian GP for an Italian, so they're very passionate about their F1. I know that it's about Ferrari normally, but they haven't had an Italian driver for quite some time. Hey, Geo. Yeah, I know, but it's still a while ago.

You're saying he wasn't very, are you saying he's awful, Harry? He's a worldwide superstar. He's a global superstar. I can say he's Jesus. It doesn't matter. Is he his hair? But it's been a while since I've had an Italian driver.

And yeah, this was bound to be. extra pressure for him. They also, if they were going to do this at Monza, which obviously did, I would have probably just announced him before FB1 and then because because I guess in his head he's like, well, I know they're going to announce me. I want to make a big impression it because it's all like excellent if I go P1 in my first ever session and then they say, yes, he's our driver for next year. What's the point?

I mean, that would have been, it would have looked ace if it had worked out like that. But what's the point of that extra. pressure because the downside is you get this result and he crashes out and then Mercedes go, yes, he's our driver for next year. That's our guy. That's the guy for us, which obviously they didn't make that decision there and then they'd made it already according to total of all 30 seconds after Lewis and a sound to left them. Oh yeah, sure.

Maxis happened. Don't worry about it, mate. No, no. But yeah, I would have done it before, before F people won and then it would have taken that bit of pressure off his shoulders, which may, you know, may or may not have helped. But yeah, I think in general, the sequencing and the timing was just a bit off for them. I could see what they were trying to do there, but it backfired. Only Antonelli knows exactly how much the pressure of his home crowd contributed to that crash.

I agree with Sam in that I think he's crashing that anywhere in the world, regardless to what his first boy was going. He was absolutely gunning for it. And Toto Wolf later in the same quote does say that he was pushing the car to the extent that like it would have been fine in FP3 or in qualifying because the track would have ramped up by then. It wasn't ready for that in FP1. And he suffered the consequences for it. But I kind of think that I don't think he was out there. I can really impress my home crowd by going fast and setting a best time in FP1.

I think he had done that just based on his approach pretty much. much anywhere. The thing I think Mercedes got wrong and it's to your point, Harry, is that just the ordering of this, I think Mercedes got greedy, trying to announce him and give him his first free practice session

at the same weekend. I just think it was a bit too much. Again, this guy had only just turned 18 years old. That's a lot of pressure. And I think ideally they would have spaced out a little bit more. I think they might just got a bit carried away. The thing that kind of confusing

me. I know we've discussed it before. I'm unconvinced the way it played out is the way that they drew this up because of course they were the ones that put together this exemption for 17 year old, under 18 year olds to try and get his presumably his debut earlier and they never used it. The Italian Grand Prix at Monza, that was the first race after he had turned 18 years old. So they didn't need any ruling to change whatsoever for that to take place. but yet they went through with the exemption. Now, there is potentially Williams involved in this and that they wanted to give Williams another option

for replacing Logan Sargent. But based on them having that in their back pocket, they could have just debuted him FP1 at the Dutch Grand Prix the week before, back to back, then go to Monza. And he was going to be at Monza anyway because F2 was at Monza and then just announce him there. I think they were just maybe a bit greedy about it. I think something went wrong behind the things.

I think earlier in the year and Sinelli was not the intended person to be that driver. Obviously, incredibly talented, but I agree that maybe Williams was pretty more the option they were looking to get him involved with and seeing how Sargent's ability was waning further than even we pretty expected at that

point during the season. I think they thought there's an opportunity here to remind our old friend Williams to have one of our youngsters in the car and we'll take advantage that. Thank you very much. I think James Vowles probably said no, I'm not interesting in this actually. I want to get, as we know, now, sikes in the team.

And I think they were still expecting someone like a Gestappen or someone like that to take that second seat. And only later on down the line, after the exemption of already being allowed, did they go, I suppose Kimmerton County is a pretty good option. Actually, we should probably just let it run its course as we normally would have done. And they've ended up playing themselves into a slightly public arena of what was going on and judging them and how it was run more than they ever really needed to. Outside of the obvious don't crash, Harry.

what other lessons can Antonelli take from this? I mean, they'll crash probably is the number one. That might be number one. I think he'll learn that you don't need to be the fastest in FP1. How many points does it get you, Harry? Oh, zero. He'll be laughing when FP2, FP3,

qualifying and the race are all cancelled and points go back to FP1. Yeah, I thought you're going to say when Stefano Domenicali's announcers are going to give points for FP3. 1 and FP2 and FP3. Could you imagine? I'm trying not to swear.

Don't joke about that. Can you imagine? No, that's the problem I can. It would be carnage. The three hours of absolute carnage. Don't give him my dear. Oh, please, please no. Don't do this.

I think, yeah, he, that's a, that's a, all young drivers have done it and they've gone too quickly in FP1 trying to impress. He's got one chance. I know it's a bit different because he didn't necessarily need to impress too much, but um fb1 is traditionally a slippery a slippery surface to to go out on you don't need to be

giving your maximum as he was he was driving like it was you know the last lap in Q3 uh and also that weekend in Monza they just had like just resurfaced the whole track so it's even slippier which he will have known new curbs as well yeah exactly all i full of it was it was asking for it for an accident and yeah i think you just need to to just to write that in and learn when to when to push. I mean, you look at, I know he's, I know he's old, but Fernando Alonso saves everything up for Q3. He just builds up to it during the weekend.

He's never, he's never doing his Q3 lap and FP1 because he, he knows. The same for Hamilton or a step, but they all say something in the locker for when they need it. You're not going out and doing it straight away. So that is inexperience showing, and I'm sure he's lurched that lesson. Very quickly now, actually, because of what happened.

I reckon he just saw, Burt Myelander do the same thing. He went, that's the line. Mercedes driver. He's already done that, so I must follow him. I must follow. I mean, if you're going to follow anyone, follow, Byrd.

It's a safety car, right? He's gone, that's the same thing again. True. Sorry, Ben. The biggest conspiracy theory in the world right now is where is Bert Myelander? Even F on post about the safety car the other day because they're like, yeah, we haven't seen this for ages.

I bet I still have it. We're still having to go. We play a lot of money. Our car doesn't exist anymore. Please put us somewhere. I think that might be the case. I think with all rookie drivers, and I know I mentioned this at the time,

I feel like him getting that crash out of his system isn't the worst thing in the world. Like, you can't be overly scared of that first, that first crash, that first incident that you're going to have because everyone will have it at some point. I'm quite all right with the fact that it's done and does. He'll have more, obviously, but it's done and dusted. He's finding where the limits are.

and we'll see how that trends into next year. A quick one as well, because Toto Wolf goes on to say about the signing itself. He said it's not a gamble. It would be a gamble if you wouldn't believe in his capability. We need to give him the time to develop. We don't expect touching down in Australia next year and him being better than everyone. That's not the expectation. I think it shouldn't be anybody's expectations.

Got to give him time to develop and then he become very good. But he needs to be given the time. What should we be expecting next year for him, so? If we're going to really shoot for the stars, Angus Tang Toto's quote here is suggesting that maybe we shouldn't look like we're shooting for the stars and we should take things realistically. Unfortunately for him, Oscar Piastri is coming and within 18 months has shown us what a rookie can do in this modern era, you know, since 2021.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Antigone does something of a very similar trajectory, a very similar scope. In year one comes in, it's quick. Maybe make some mistakes. Maybe some racetracks overworks the tyres or maybe has an accident. and we've said so many times, I would rather you be rapid, super, super quick,

but crash five or six times throughout the season, but when you're finishing those races, you are smashing it out of the park. You are doing so much better than we could expect. And yet sometimes you'll make mistakes because you're learning,

and that is the point. They've got to be ready for him to learn and some mistakes will be costly. But as long as on the other side, where he does deliver, he delivers well, I think that's totally okay. So by year one,

I would expect him to be not beating Russell. I'd be shocked if he comes in and he's beating Russell. Russell even said, I think in the most perfect PR, George Russell way, I expect him to keep me on my tone throughout the season. Such a George Russell line. A Russell banger in it. So, yeah, I mean, that's what I expect from Anton Eli.

On some days, I think he'll be right up there with Russell, and you'll go, wow, kick's quick. And there will be some days where Russell's flying, having a really good Grand Prix, and Anthony Rue's been in it on lap three or something like that. I wouldn't be shocked to see it. Year two, maybe the same again as Piastri. Takes a little bit of time to settle,

but then once he's into it, once he's comfortable, we're seeing it in his junior career, I do expect him to really thrive. And as we've already mentioned, I love that he's coming to practice and absolutely rags that car about Monsa. It was wrong, it was misjudged. He did have a 52G crash,

but hey, kids keen, kids got speed, I respect it. He's in here to win. It's a good side for my sake. I think it's actually very positive. Is the sort of piastry trajectory, Harry, what we should be looking for here? I think so.

I think, given the hype around Antonelli, I think that's, if, if this is what you want your, your future to be, I think the Piastri, the way the,

the way the Piastri has, has gone about it and the way that he's progressed, because he's shown, he showed early doors, I know the McLaren at the beginning of 23 was, was garbage, 17th and the DNF. But he showed that he had the speed,

but there were lots of areas he still needs to work on at least versus Atlanta Norris in terms of race management, et cetera. it and that's the same that will be the same for Antonelli when he first joins especially versus George Russell he might keep him on his toes over one lap in qualifying but during a race you'd expect at least in the early stages

in year one Russell will be able to outthink out drive him over a race distance I think it's probably a highly likely scenario so and it was the same for Piastri and towards the end of year one he was getting on on a par with Norris at least occasionally and obviously now we're into almost the end of year two and he could beat him

so I think for Antinelli, that's probably what he's going to aim for. Again, you don't need to be disappointed if you don't beat him at your first attempt, which I feel like he will be. But fine, that's good. That's good ambition. As he said, Sam, he's keen. He's got the desire.

But I think he doesn't need, he doesn't need to be because this is going to be early days. But I think that's a sort of, mission needs to need to, or Toto at least need to make that clear to him. The expectation should be something similar to what Piaastri's done. Yeah, I think that's a good. model to use and I hope that that's the way he goes. If he ends up being better than that and he ends up being Hamilton-esque where he's on the pace after checks notes, one corner, then fantastic.

But don't expect that. Take that as a massive bonus if it comes about. Toto Wolf's comments, I think, are encouraging. His actions will mean more because, you know, let's just say we get a few months into next season and Russell is doing a better job than Antonelli, which would be completely acceptable for both drivers at their respective stages of their careers. And suddenly Max Verstappen becomes a real option for next season. That's when Toso Wolff's comments kind of put to the test.

Like how much do you actually believe in Antonelli? How much time do you actually want to give him? Because if at that point he starts to get distracted and he goes, Hmm, Russell's pretty good. Stappen could be a driver next year. Yeah, throw away the comments I made about giving him time last year because I've got a better option now, then these comments would be worthless.

Let's give it some time and see how much he actually means this. Okay, that'll do it for our first segment. Something a bit different coming for you after the break because I'm joined by a very special guest for a quick interview. Harry and I get a step away. Go have a little tea break. See you there, guys. Bye.

Doesn't come back for any of the rest of the podcast. I play order please against myself. Very well welcome back everyone. As promised, we have a very special guest joining us for this next segment to discuss his new book. Speed, the history of Formula One World Championships. It's award-winning journalist Kevin Easton. Kevin, first and foremost, how are you? And thank you for coming on the show.

Very well, thank you, apart from a few sniffles, but let's not worry. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you very much for coming on the show today. As mentioned, you're here with your new book, Speed. which details all of F1 essentially. Before we get into the book, very quickly, obviously the 2024 season, we're about three quarters of the way through that one.

How are you finding the 2024 season so far? Surprisingly interesting, because it looked like a wipeout again, didn't it, at the start? But McLaren have found the magic formula from somewhere, but Canolando win it? I don't know, it's touch and go, really, isn't it? 50 points, but it's... There's about 180 on the table at the moment.

Yeah. They're about, he needs Max to have a couple of failures, I think. But at least it looks like a contest now, doesn't it? And it's great for, you know, to see Lando up there. I first wrote about Lando in 2016. So you can call me Mystic Kev because I did predict then that he would be a big player in F1. It's taking him a little while, but he's got there. Yeah, is that going all the way back?

back to Janetta Juniors at that point, because that must have been very near the start of his race and career. No, he was getting ready to go up to Formula 3 or 2. I don't know how old he would have been then. He would have been about 17, wouldn't he? Yeah, about that. I remember meeting him in the March of 2016. But sometimes you take a punt on these guys, you don't know whether it's going to come good, but I met Jensen Button for the first time when he was 17 and he came good for me and I met a guy called a little tiny chap he was only nine at but more park carth circuit and he was called lewis hamilton and i said what are you going to do when you grow up he said i'm going to be the world champion he wasn't far out was he no uh he was only wrong

about how many times he'd do it but uh yes absolutely that's right yeah very spooky i found the cutting the other day actually very funny so you've um you've covered over 300 races in your career as a journalist. So I guess the first question is, you know, where did your passion for motorsport begin? And how did you find your way into the world of F1? Well, I'm going to slightly disappoint you because I'm not a fan as such. I know if you go to the Formula One Media Centre, I mean, it is full of fans. But I'm a journalist. And in fact, before, immediately before I got the job doing motor racing at the times, I was covering politics. Well, in fact, 1997, for six weeks, I was on the general election duty.

And the last news job I did was the death of Princess Diana. And then I was at a bit of a loose end. And I don't know, the stars aligned to something. And the sports editor said, Would you like to be the motor racing correspondent? And that was somehow the die was cast. And in 1998, off I went to Australia and started doing best part of 25 years of of motorsport.

To say I'm not a fan, actually, probably overdoing it a bit because like every 10-year-old, I had a Skelectric and like everybody else who was interested in sport, you know, I used to watch the grainy black and white pictures

on the BBC and listen to Murray Walker and all that stuff and collect car brochures and things. But, you know, I wasn't a, I'm not a kind of dyed-in-the-wall fan as such. And so for me,

my interest in Formula One really has been the personalities more than the machines although having said that I do you know you can be quite bowled over by the machines but the personalities have absolutely fascinated me and I've met so many amazing people

all the way from Jack Brabham and Sterling Moss who I became great chum with a marvellous man Sterling Jackie Stewart to us keep in touch with. And then of course the great crowd that I joined, Ron Dennis, Frank Williams, Eddie Jordan,

Flavio Briatore, Max Mosley, and of course the emperor, Bernie Eccleston, who was my sparring partner for a long time. And again, I keep in touch with him. And he'll be, he's coming up for his 94th birthday. And he's still on the go.

So it was a fascinating 25 years for me, absolutely fascinating. Yeah, and I mean, you mentioned, obviously, within the five minutes that we've been talking, we've gone from Sterling Moss to Lewis Hamilton, which pretty much covers not far off the full 75 years of this great sport. And you've decided in your book to go all the way back to the beginning to the modern day. What inspired you to take on that challenge? Well, Harper Collins came up with the idea of having a year-by-year study of the sport, but they've cleverly added to the spice a cutting a story from that period, from one of the races of that period.

In fact, one of the correspondents who's written for the Times turned out to be Sterling. I was gobsmacked to discover. So with each year you get a piece from the Times, which is like a snapshot of a race. And I think that's really spiced it up. But it was fascinating because you kind of take this stuff for granted. But if you go back, I mean, it's been an epic story. I mean, on every level, 75 years ago,

motorsport was a bit of a throw-together job. You know, you put on a race and you hoped somebody would turn up and guys would come from all over the place. They'd, you know, just buy a car and turn up. Well, Bernie Eccleson actually entered two races in 1958. Didn't qualify for either of them. Not quite. But he was very good at crashing, apparently.

That was his speciality. But to go from that to where we are now with these incredibly sophisticated machines. And as I kind of refer to a little bit in the book, you know, this is technology that's not just about cars. There are operating theatres in the NHS now using pit stop technology to carry out operations. If you remember during COVID,

when the NHS were short of respirators, Mercedes and McLaren, within a couple of weeks, we're banging them out of the door. You know, there's a lot of real-world technology involved now in Formula One, which I think is a fantastic thing. And I've said for years and years and years, if you want a problem solved like the NHS, I'd just gather up 20 Formula One engineers and let them get on with it because they'd probably solve it in about a fortnight.

I have no doubt they would. You mentioned going right back to the beginning of F1 and some of those excerpts that you've put together in this book. Were there any challenges? How much did you enjoy going that far back? Of course, you're not necessarily relying on firsthand information at that point. Was there anything you found whilst researching that you found particularly interesting? I'm just intrigued to know sort of that period of time, like what your approach to going back that far was. I found it absolutely fascinating.

I mean, you can't see, but there's an array of books here, which was my kind of research centre. And also I do have still on file here conversations with people like Sterling and Jackie who were able to film me. And Murray Walker, bless his cotton socks, no longer with us. So I did have quite a pool of stuff to draw on. but I do find endlessly fascinating that period 50, 60, 70s

when, you know, as Jackie Stewart said, Formula One was more like war than sport because the casualty rate was just extraordinary. I mean, absolutely extraordinary. And as I say, I had lunch with Jackie and his wife a few years ago, and he said that they sat one night and they counted up how many friends they'd lost. and they got to over 50.

I forget the number, I think it was 56 or 58. And every season, you know, you guys were just killed wantonly. And I find that just extraordinary that it was accepted as can't even think to imagine it happening today at all. And some of the stories, the early stories, my standout season, I think it'd be 1958, when, of course, which was the rise of the Brits, effectively, you know, when we were. was starting to see Van Wall and BRM and people like that coming into the Freyvac, you know, first Constructors champion. He was Van Wall was British.

Mike Hawthorne won the championship, but in a Ferrari. There's this famous story of how he spun the car and he couldn't get it going again. Sterling won the race and shouted over to Mike, you know, roll it downhill and you'd be able to, you know, jumpstart the thing. So he did. Mike Hawthorne finished. It was disqualified from the race. Sterling went in to see the stewards and argued passionately that Mike should be reinstated.

And at the end of the season, the difference was one point. And the one point was for Hawthorne finishing that race and getting the fastest lap. So there was chivalry, death. I mean, it's just how do you wrap all that up? I mean, it's just an extraordinary story, absolutely extraordinary. A lot of what you detail within the book is the evolution of the, the sport, which of course, safety is, is one of the paramount elements of that. And you've already mentioned how, you know, Jackie Stewart and safety kind of go hand in hand. And I think it was maybe

Jackie Stewart reckoned it was, it was one in three was your chance at that point of, of getting out. And you're absolutely right that nowadays, that seems almost an alien concept. Are there any sort of safety, advances in safety that stand out to you in the history of F1? Well, there's been so many, hasn't it? Because the entire design of the car now is deliberately made to be safe. I remember Max Mosley. Max Mosley drove in the race in Hockenheim where Jim Clark was killed. And he said, you know, those cars were like high-speed bombs, effectively,

because you sat in a cockpit surrounded by petrol. And Max was very instrumental in bringing about the big changes in, you know, cockpit strength and not having legs dangling out the front of the car and all that sort of stuff. And then in recent times, the introduction of the halo. I mean, the teams and the drivers didn't want it. They were very against it. But, you know, if you look at Dan Weldon, Justin Wilson, and John Serti's son, Henry, all killed with blows to the head.

And I think there's been a few instances in just recent times since it was introduced where, you know, a driver's been lucky. to get away thanks to the halo. You know, Formula One's being pretty spectacular in dealing with its safety issues, I think. Indeed. Something else you referenced earlier on was just how drawn you are to the various personalities

that come and go within the sport. I mean, I guess there are a couple of obvious answers to this, but who stands out to you in that regard as almost transcending the sport, the popularity that they've gained? Well, Jackie Stewart is probably the most enduring character. I don't know how old he is now, but 86, 87. Still a very familiar figure and still a go-to figure, I think, for the media.

That's probably very recognizable. Sterling, in his heyday, as the book says, I mean, he was probably the first superstar of Formula One. You know, he mixed with royalty and film stars and glamorous girlfriends and all that sort of stuff. and he became a very enduring name, you know, the motorist who's pulled up for speeding and the copper says, why'd your window down?

He says, who do you think you are? Stirling Moss? I mean, that became a kind of enduring line in British culture. But also, you know, I think Schumacher, Michael Schumacher, remains somebody who is known outside of Formula One. He's a kind of name that people cleave to. And Senor, of course, most people, I think, around the world would know that the name

of Senna and good old Lewis. You know, not many people recognise Formula One drivers, but most people will know who Lewis Hamilton is. And, you know, good on him. You know, the kid from Stevenage is done all right, isn't he? Not too bad at all. Staying on the topic, I guess, of personalities, of course, when you're documenting as many years of the sport as you have within the book,

you're going to come across so many of the epic, rivalries that we've had. Again, are there any that really stand out to you? Oh, there's lots and lots and lots, really. Too many for me to think about, you know, in my era, of course, we've had Schumacher and Hackernon, which for a couple of years was quite lively. Max and Lewis go back a couple of years, I mean, that was a hell of a rivalry, wasn't it? Yeah. Going back through the years, Senna and Prost, you know, it's got to be the biggest of them all.

The one that, the most recent one that intrigued me, and I've spoken to one of these guys quite extensively about it, was Nico Rosberg and Lewis. You know, Nico, without Lewis and the team, could have been a four-time champion, really, because he was damn quick,

you know he held the pole position prize didn't he i think in 2014 or 2015 or maybe both years he was a very quick driver and he was a very very bright lad and i remember he'd been beaten twice and at the start of 16 we had a long chat and i could tell he'd siked himself up for 2016 he had he'd done everything i mean he started doing meditation he'd cut himself off from his wife and his baby at the time. He was on a new diet. He was on a new exercise regime. He cleared the decks because he had to win the championship. And the night he won it in Abu Dhabi, I saw him about an hour after the race. And I've never seen a guy look so drained. The effort of overcoming Lewis had just been so incredibly great that it was a week later he quit. And I was intrigued by

that rivalry, that in-house rivalry and some of the background to it, the way they wound each other up and stuff there. I think that's a great story yet to be told, I think. I think, you know, Nika Rosberg's retirement is seen as one of the bigger surprises maybe that's happened in F1 in the last 10 years. Given your sort of firsthand experience of what he was like immediately after Abu Dhabi, what his approach was like for the year as a whole, was it, Was it any less of a surprise for you that he did leave at that point? It was a shock when I got the call. It was a great shot.

But thinking about it now, having seen him that night, he was. He'd given absolutely everything in his body and soul. He didn't have anything else he could give. And he knew that if he went on another season, he'd probably get a pasting from Lewis the next year, in which case, you know, what would be the point. And I think actually it was a very wise decision.

And I think he's very much at peace with it now. Yeah. But a lot of respect for Nico. He was possibly the brightest guy, brightest driver I ever came across. The guys at Williams say he was incredibly clever. When he sat the sort of initiative test that they set them at Williams, he passed with flying colours.

And he was set to go to, I think, Imperial College to do masters in mechanical engineering. I think could be wrong on that. But I know when he went to Mercedes, I mean, he spent a lot of time in the wind tunnels. He spent a lot of time with the aerodynamics and the engineers. He was a very bright cookie. A lot of time for Nico. Yeah, I agree with your earlier point on, you know,

what could have been without Lewis Hamilton in that team because what I know he was against a Michael Schumacher that came back to the sport, but obviously three out of three years there at Mercedes, he was the leading driver. Then Lewis Hamilton comes in. To take one away from Lewis Hamilton, I think it was a great achievement. But certainly it is a bit of a what if

as to what he could have achieved if he wasn't there. A little anecdote about Nico in 2010, when Michael came back with the first race, I was trying to get an interview with Nico, but I didn't get one. I think we were in China. Anyway, I finally got this interview with Nico, and I went in and we exchanged pleasantries. How are you doing? How's it going? And then he stopped and he said, but it's not me you come to

talk about, is it? I said, good one, Nico. Yes. How are you getting on with Michael? He spotted my cunning plan immediately. But there we are. But he was quite happy to talk. He was a good, good guy. Before we let you go, I did just want to ask about one very specific race. It's a race that we're going to be reviewing as part of our subscription service on Patreon very, very soon. And it's the 2003 Brazilian Grand Prix. It's quite a notable one. It's one that you talk about in

your book as saying it was summing up a chaotic season. If you can, sort of going back to that race, what was it about it that sort of captured the essence of that season? Well, just about everything happened. If you remember, 2002, Michael

had pretty much walked it. And we all expected that to happen in 2003. And in fact, didn't. It was a bit of a struggle for him. And of course there were a lot of new kids on the block that season, a lot of contenders. But we went to Brazil and the weather was awful. In Brazil, it's either boiling hot or pouring down. You don't please get anything in between. It's a bit like where I live, actually. And we weren't quite sure what was going to happen with the weather and stuff. The rain stopped, but the track was pretty much in parts, was almost flooded.

And I forget the detail now. You don't have to read the book. Well. Pretty good book. But I think five cars ended up piled into the barriers at the same corner. And Michael was one of them. So the sort of the tone of the race was set. And then the league changed hands.

I don't know many times. And then the sort of the great finish to it was Mark Weber, who I think was in the Jaguar at the time. time, smashed into the barrier, debris all over the road, yellow flags, but I think Fernando Alonsoe must have had some sort of blind moment, came charging around the corner, plowed through all the debris, he smashed his cart to bits, which brought out the black flag, you know, the race was halted. And the problem was, nobody actually really knew who'd won. And being in Brazil with the time difference, we're on deadline for newspapers.

So we've got a race that's finished, but we don't have a winner. We don't actually know what the result is. And it appeared that the FIA didn't know what the result was either. We thought that Kuthard had won. He thought that he'd won. They put Kimmy Rikkon on the podium as the winner. But then they discovered about a day later that that wasn't the case, that actually the winner was Fisichella. So a week later or a fortnight later, I think we were Imola.

they had to give the prize to Fisichella. It was just a complete shambles of a race. There was just so much going on in it. It was the usual thing. If it rains, you get chaos, which just makes it more fun, really. But it's not very good for you at the heart condition if you're a journalist on deadline.

No, I don't suppose that was a great deal of fun to try and wrap up a race that wasn't really wrapped up. Thank you very much for coming on the show today. As mentioned, Speed, the history of Formula One World Challenge, It goes on sale later this month. Correct me if I'm wrong, 24th of October.

So you can pre-order it now. We'll make sure that the do is in the episode description. But again, thank you very much for joining us today. And of course, all the success with the launch of the book. Thanks for having me. Nice to talk to you. Okay, everyone. Welcome back.

And welcome back, Sam and Harry. Nice to see you. Hello. Oh, lovely two break we had. How was your mate? It's been so long since I last saw you. I barely remember what you looked like. What did you talk about?

We've listened, obviously. Well, we had a nice chat about Kevin's new book, which, as mentioned on the last segment, we'll include the link in the description for it. But I had a nice chat about the likes of Nico Rosberg and Sterling Moss and Princess Diana weirdly very quickly came up. It was a wild trip. Hey, I grew up for one day.

Princess D. The big three is they are commonly known. Lost Rosberg and die. Oh, Lord. That's who replaces us when we retire. We are seamless of this. So good. I can't think of a worse word to describe us than seamless.

Speaking of, let's move on to Michael Andretti because he has confirmed he's stepping down in charge of the Andretti global team. Sorry, global team is there now? Global. Please do that. Obviously, it competes in IndyCar, Formula E and other series. He's handing over control of the team to his business partner, Dan Taurus. This is what Andretti had to say.

Many of my best memories have come at the wheel of this organisation, and I'm so proud of what we have built. But decades of running flat out doesn't come without sacrifice, and after much thought and reflection over the past several months, I came to the decision to take a step back. I've had a day-to-day operational role since even before I stepped out of the race car, and it's time now to pass the battle onto my partner and friend. But I'm not going away.

I'll be serving as an advisor for the team and will be available to help wherever I can. While you might see me less at the racetrack, know that my passion for the sport and my support for our team and its people will remain unwavering. Now, of course, even though they're not in F1 at the moment or maybe ever, Michael Andretti and his team have been a hot topic for us over the last year or so.

Are you surprised at the announcement, Sam? Really, really surprised. Really shocked, actually. The timing, I think, couldn't be worse in stepping away from this organisation to make it global global, rather than Andretti Global. I really do think, Harry, always trying, not to laugh. A guy called Global is coming in to make it Global Global,

Correct. I like the idea that the game changes depending on who is the CEO, so it's constantly adjusting. Warwick's going to come in. Change my name to Michael Global. Yeah, I'm shocked at the timing. Absolutely shocked at the time. They need Andretti as the driving force, no plug intended.

He is being a name stay, of course, in motorsport for, what, 50 years at this point? It's been a bloody long time that he's been about, and the family name has been about even longer. They are historically known across the Americas as a real fighting force when it comes to motorsport. Now there's this legal precedent going through. There's the conversation of getting them into Formula One. there is the discussion that, you know, they need everything they can to make sure they are becoming a formal long entity. And he was very much almost the header of that.

You know, he was the, he was the one that you look to publicly and go, okay, he's the guy that's got our backing and we're pushing him to get into the sport. And now, of all times, he's gone. It's a very peculiar situation to see someone just drop off right at a very defining moment in what could, it could be, you know, historic for Andretta. or now just global, as we will call them. Also, it seems like from quotes and conversations from others around, as much as the handover is happening to his close business partner and friend, a lot of people are unsure where the direction is now going, where leadership is going, who is managing what areas.

It seems like the preparations haven't been put in place before this has happened. And actually, this decision seems to have come somewhat quite quickly. You know, there seems to be no murmurings about it, no rumours, no, oh, at the end of 2024, I will be stepping down. and currently we're putting in process to make sure that all areas are covered, they have a leadership, they have someone to own them, we're going to be making sure that we're set up for the next 50 years of, you know, running motorsport into the future.

It feels very quick and very out of nowhere that this has happened, and it really is a bizarre time. So I'm sure Mr. Andretti has his reasons, but something just feels a little weird. It just feels a bit odd that this has happened. So out of the blue at such a pivotal moment in their desire to become a Formula One entity. It's very odd.

I'm pretty surprised based on obviously how long he's been at the helm of that team. It's been a long time now. And of course, again, the team name is Andretti Global. And Andretti, you would think is quite integral to that. So I was quite surprised. I do wonder how much of this is his decision versus was he pushed out. Of course, it hasn't been plain sailing for Andretti over the last few years. the F1 entry of course hasn't materialized.

Andretti, of course, whilst they are a mainstay of Indycar, they are, I would say, quite firmly, the third team after Penske and Chip Ganassi. So they haven't really been able to win championships and break away from that third place ranking. And Andretti himself, I think, has been in a bit of a war of words recently with Roger Penske, who owns IndyCar. So I'm not sure if this was maybe his business partner,

maybe thinking that the future of this team could be more secure without Andretti leading the way. Maybe he's holding them back. Maybe he is causing some friction with these important business relationships that aren't causing things to move forward. It's all speculation at this point. But yeah, I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if he was somewhat pushed to one side.

Do you think, Harry, that the F1 dream is dead and your surprise or lack of surprise at the announcement? I don't think the F1 dream is dead given the investment they've already made into this. I do wonder how much of it was just Michael Andretti versus the company Andretti

in terms of who wanted this the most. Yeah, I'm with you. Surprised. It also came out of the blue. There was no real rumours about this. And yeah, suddenly he's just like, no, I'm done. I'm not doing this anymore. So surprised at the sudden announcement of it.

Yeah, what it means for their F1 entry, I don't know. I don't think it was the fact the F1 weren't letting them in was because of Michael Andretti himself. I think there's other things at play here. If it is just about Michael Andretti and they hate him, that'd be ridiculous. If they now be like, oh yeah, come on in. You come in, guys. don't worry about it. Global global.

But sorry, the phrase Global Global is actually sending me. That is so ridiculous. We want a reputable brand like Global Global. It sounds like we've made it out for a film or something. They are so worldwide. They are the world. Pitbull is just going mad. He's the new CEO.

Do we not say? He's been out worldwide. Twice. Not possible. But I don't know what I'm. what I was talking about now. But, yeah, I don't think this is what's going to change, change anything for the F1 entry.

And yeah, we'll see how Andretti proceed from here. And you're right. And it's save an IndyCar as well and another series. It's maybe they felt it was a change. But it's quite a big change to get rid of the guy who, whose company is. It's like pushing a Ferrari, the family of Ferrari to one side. Yeah, get rid of Enzo Ferrari.

Yeah. Bye, Enzo. And rightfully, they haven't had much success either in the last nearly 20 years. So you're good, but you're not going to because it's Ferrari. Interesting one. Bring back Enzo Ferrari, I think, is the outcome of this. Sure. That's what I say.

Yeah. Good conclusion. Is the F1 dream still alive, Sam? Is it still there? Weirdly, I think this might be a boost to the F1. one dream. If they've got someone who isn't so familiar with Andretti as a brand, of course, the family side of things and weirdly has a personal relationship with that journey, I wonder if the new leadership team that are going to come in will be able to see things from a more business

point of view and make compromises or changes or adjustments that maybe Michael himself wasn't comfortable with making or didn't want to make and was fiercely moving forward into the unknown with Andretti and wanted to do it his way. And we've joked so many times that in 2025 is he just going to turn up with two cars on the back of the grid. And that's just going to be, I'm here now, can't stop me.

Well, maybe this is going to help heal a little bit of the relationship with the FIA, with F1, maybe the legal system, the justice system, the course, is looking at all of this, might look at this with a different pair of eyes now. I'm not saying that the dream is dead because, of course, the new leadership system might turn around and go, actually F1 isn't for us.

We just don't want to do it now. It's definitely possible. But I'm sure that maybe, maybe they can look at this with a fresh perspective and be willing to do something that maybe behind the scenes that we didn't know about, Michael didn't want to do. Yeah, I think it's interesting.

I think it could be a boost. I don't think that's impossible. I think we are probably getting to the stage now where Andresi, probably their only chance of entering the sport is at the same time as Cadillac. I know that they always wanted to come in prior to that. And then when General Motors Cadillac were ready

to move over to them. So I think maybe that's where we're heading. The thing that might scare them a little bit, this Andretti at this stage, and I know that they somehow didn't make it onto today's schedule, but they've still somehow found a way to be talked about. Alpine is an interesting one. Sure.

Because, as we know, the way Andretti was heading was if they couldn't get Cadillac in for 2026 or whenever they wanted to enter, that maybe Alpine engines would be the way to go. Now, of course, Alpine have decided, not only do we not want to give engines to Andretti, we don't want to make them for ourselves. So that's obviously an option that's off the table. But equally, if Alpine are going to go to, let's say, Mercedes for a couple of years,

Alpine and Cadillac for 2028, that would be the opportunity to be a factory team whilst not doing their own engines. That's more ridiculous. I'm sorry, that's more ridiculous. I know it's Alpine. But what do you think that far through? We could be a factory team with so last engines. So they could be a factory team

without having the cost of creating their own engine. Without having the factory. Yeah, pretty much. For Alpine. Like, if they're going to be a customer team and they have the opportunity to be a customer team to a team that isn't providing engines for anyone else, then maybe that's an option.

I don't know. But yeah, I think that's probably where we're heading is 2028 at this stage. Should we move on to Hasse and Toyota, giving us another thing to talk about, which was... Sorry, Bing. The amount of things on this podcast that are coming up today that I just didn't expect to come up. Hars and Toyota, Lady Di has come up as well. Alping and Cadillac.

It has been a roller coaster ride of things to talk about on a podcast. Yeah, I wouldn't expect Diana to appear within the next quote, but I'll say it and we'll see where we get to. Maybe Kamatsu is a big fan, we'll find out, because Toyota has reached an agreement for its motorsport division to become the official technical partner of the Hass Formula One team. This marks Toyota's first official involvement in F1 since it closed its own team down 15 years ago. TGR, a wholly owned subsidiary of Toyota, operates out of its European hub in Cologne. and this facility was originally the Toyota F1 headquarters in the 2000s, and it's now home to Toyota's World Endurance Championship team.

As part of the partnership, TGR will offer design, technical and manufacturing services while benefiting from technical expertise and commercial advantages provided by HASS. An interesting partnership, Sam, one that again seemingly has come out of the blue, is this going to work out? I am blown away by this partnership. It seems like Gene Haas has finally allowed someone else to use their contact list and their friends to actually go out there and make some relationships.

I don't think Gene Hass knows. No, he's got no idea. He's done this behind his back. Kamatsu is out there cooking away in the pit lane. Like, got to get something to work. It does feel like, because it's so surprising, sorry, Sam, but it's so surprising that Kamatsu has just flown out to Japan and gone, do you want to make a deal?

And I'm like, yeah, right. And that's it, done. I mean, what, he's good friends with Osayakagi, right, who is a very senior director in the world of Toyota racing and Himakamatsu are apparently close pals. So I respect the route of who you know. And boy, this, this blooming out of the water of all the teams to get a Toyota partnership

who have been so incredibly successful. You've got to remember that McLaren were using their wind tunnel in Cologne until they recently finalized their own new wind tunnel. And the success that they've seen outside of Formula One since they left F1, they've won Mollong. They've won multiple world endurance championships with XF1 drivers or current F1 drivers if you look at the likes of Fernando Alonso, Buemi.

And then you also look at their rally efforts. They've been so successful in rally as well. So the fact that now they're getting to dip their feet back into the world of Formula One and Toyota are willing to spend so much. I think Toyota and Japan absolutely love Formula One. I really do think there's a thing to see there. You see Suzuki, you see their passionate fans.

We've been there for so long. This is a huge wing, I think. for Haas. I was so shocked today. I think this is a huge win. Hars are the smallest team on the grid in terms of personnel. I was doing some researching. It looks like they've got about 300 employees. The fact that they can now use so many Toyota people and their hardware and their facilities at pretty much no cost to them is such a big win. They're not relying on Ferrari as much anymore. They're going to get expert outside knowledge. They're going to get facilities they can never even dream of affording, let alone using at such a low cost. And also,

also Toyota get benefit from this, right? It allows them to understand a Formula One program. It allows them to grow their expertise. It might open the door for a next wave of regulations entry for Toyota once again. I wouldn't say no to Toyota coming back fully as a manufacturer. So I think this is a fantastic bit of news for Hars, for Toyota and for Formula One. I really do think this is a brilliant partnership. Surprised by it, but buzzing. Absolutely love it.

Harry, were you surprised by it? And do you think it's a good move for both sides? Yeah, very surprised. And normally in F1, we've had a lot of announcements this year. Don't if anyone's noticed. Lots happened. There's always some rumours beforehand, even like a couple of days. Even with Lewis Hamilton news, there was at least the day before or this might be happening.

This one. That's why I just think I come out, so just flown to Japan to see his mate and gone, do you want to do a deal? And he's like, yeah. Go on. Yeah, right, mate. In the bar the night before, they just went, oh, go on there. Yeah, we'll do it.

Good idea. because it came out of absolutely nowhere, no rumor meal about this one, which, refreshing for an announcement, because it's quite nice to have it, a surprise one, but this is,

I know we've spoken about Hass. Hass, Ben, you did a great analogy about your cheese, the cheese being on fire, your house being on fire, and you take out some cheese. And that was a referencing Guntherstein. There are a lot of things wrong with Hass

in terms of the way it's run and the ambition of Gene Hass in terms of what he's willing to spend. This is a very excellent way for him not to have to spend any more money, but to get a lot more resource. So whoever's idea it was, if it was Kamatsu,

I again let the man cook. Because it's a good idea. Toyota get the exposure in F1 again that they've not had for quite some time. But without having to spend loads of money like they did the last time for nothing, Hask at the, you know, the technical expertise and resource of Toyota

who, as you say, Sam, they weren't very good enough on but elsewhere in motorsport, they are pretty good. Their WEC record is pretty good. So it seems like a win-win for both parties. I do wonder where this goes from here in terms of it'll be, is it going to be HAST Toyota? Will it eventually become Toyota? I don't know.

We shall see. and what it means for, do you think they've told Ferrari this? Do you think Hass have actually told Ferrari that they're doing this beforehand because it seems like an odd, I know that the Has Ferrari Link has been lessened than it first was,

but they still get quite a few bits for them. Do you think Ferrari will be a bit cheesed off about this? I don't know. Nothing's been said, obviously. Of course, Hassan Ferrari re-signed their agreement earlier in the year to take them through until 2028. So that is secure for the next couple of years.

And another point, I guess, to make about Ferrari is that they have for the last few years been used to having almost three teams in that pool with Alpha Romeo and Saober, of course. That's going away. So they're, I guess, not reliance on Has, but they're the only other team, obviously, Bairman's going to be in that seat as well.

Their family of Ferrari engine cars is reducing. Yeah. Anyway, so it's an odd one because obviously they still use got a few Ferrari bits, but they're going to have this resource of Toyota as well. So an odd family there, but sometimes dysfunctional families are the best ones. So I think it will be, this will be good. There's no negative for me for Hasse on this one. I think it's a, it's a solid idea.

And like I said, Gene Haz is not willing to spend more money to make this team better than he already is. This is a good way around it. I reckon they sat in the pub and Kamatsu went you guys race in white, black and red we race in white, black and red let's just be the same team. Let's be friends.

Why aren't we doing this? And they went, yeah, let's do it. And that was it. That's all they've discussed. They don't even have a contract. No, no, no. That's it. That's all.

Put your sicker on my car, dude. We just become best friends. Yeah, I think that's exactly how it went down. honestly like you say harry jean has doesn't want to spend more money and toyota famously have been good at spending money the issue is Toyota were very good at spending money and doing absolutely nothing with it so that's going to have to change honestly i think this has the protect like if we're doing a scale from like nought to 10 of how well this can go like zero being a complete disaster and 10 being a great partnership for decades to come, I think it will either be a zero or a 10.

I don't think it's going to go anywhere in the middle of that. This will even be brilliant or it will be a disaster because Hasse have probably the most convoluted setup of any team on the grid in that they have their headquarters in North Carolina in the US. They then have their UK operation in Banbury. They then have Dalar, obviously, that they're working with in terms of their chassis. They've also got Marinello in terms of the Ferrari connection and occasional use of their simulator, even though they can't use it all that often based on them being such a small team.

But you've kind of got like four different locations that are integral to the HAST setup. And it made a lot of sense when they entered Formula One because when they entered, it came after a few other entries really failed because they were trying to do everything. everything by themselves and they just weren't set up for it, has decided, let's rely on others to put something together, something together. And it worked at the time. But of course, overtime, it does hold them back. It puts a ceiling on what they can achieve. They've had numerous instances where they cannot develop upgrades at the same pace as some of the other teams because they are reliant on DeLara that isn't really fit for purpose in the modern age of F1.

now you're adding an extra body to this. If it's not managed well, it could go horribly wrong. The communication and the management from Kamatsu in particular is so important for whether this works out or not. But if it works, it's got the potential to be really good because long term, and you kind of alluded to this, Harry, if Toyota can almost replace Ferrari and Dallara, then you are taking two like bits of the. chain out of the equation and replacing it with one, that's a win.

You know, at the moment, we've said it before, how we spoke about it when Ferrari were announced to be staying as technical partners for the next couple of years, has to need a longer term solution because they're not going to get really any further up the grid than what they are at the moment unless they really change their whole philosophy, their whole business model. This is a way where it could change, not in the short term, but in the long term, if Toyota do have an interest in coming back in as an engine supplier, then suddenly Ferrari's influence can be reduced. If chassis-wise, they can help out, Dalar's influence can be reduced. So do we have a future where Has Toyota is a possibility? Yeah, I think there is. But again, Kumatsu is going to have to

really manage all of the business relationships really well, because if he doesn't, this could crumble very quickly in my eyes. Fin actually, I'm really intrigued to see how this goes as well. Something that half of historically struggled with has been their financial freedom in Formula One. We've seen the sponsors that they've brought into the sport. You know, you had the controversy with Rich Energy with the fact that, you know, Bill's... Sorry, look at they. Of course, Scott. Bill Story, the man who, you know, is he real or not?

Is Rich Energy a real product? They'll have to hang a drink that is rich energy. Of course, they changed their entire livery for him. And then even the logo got sued. And then you've had Oral Carly, of course, who was Russian-owned. and then got caught up in the Russian sanctions, directly related to Mazapin, of course. And then recently, of course, we had the loser,

Irocarly might be seizing both the cars out of the Dutch Grand Prix because there's still debts to be paid, bad, bad stuff. In modern times, they're sponsored by a brand, of course, called Mungie Graham, which you argue, I understand what it does, maybe not the most credible sponsors on the grid. And they've got other sponsors such as Palm Angels and things like that, right? So they're not reaching for the stars like the other teams around them are when it comes to these giant sponsors

that the likes of McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, even Williams at the moment, are able to pick up and put on the car. But if Toyota are able to use their relationships and increase the value of the financial side of house, then we might have seen them become a much more stable force of the Formula One. And actually this can open the door to them being a real namesay in the sport. It just, as you said, Ben, how much of the management conversation is kept clear and how much could Toyota actually own within that conversation? they have any say in what goes on the car

or is simply a, the car is your car, we won't touch it, we just want to put our staff there to let them learn, or will they have a real say in the future of where Haas goes both developmental wise and the business of Haas itself? And Harry, you're buzzed about Yarno Trilly being back. Well,

that's the only logical option now. Bring back the hair. Who does he replace? All of them. Ollie Bearman. Ocon gets fired again. Sorry, Asterbaum. yeah I'm sure this won't be the last of course we hear of this there will be from the next race in Austin there will be Toyota stickers on the car so this is pretty much in effect from now but of course it's a relationship that will grow a lot let's take our final break on this episode on the other side F1 order please welcome back everyone we'll finish today's episode with order please whether it's a can of Coca-Cola or a lump of cheese or we're ordering drivers by the size of their thing This game is full of facts, just you wait and see.

This is Formula One. Order, order, please. Really didn't know if I was going to be able to get back to the appropriate page of my book before that song ended. But good news, folks. Thank God I made it so long. You can sleep tonight, folks. F1 order, please. Six questions in front of me.

Sam and Harry will take it in turns. There are four answers in each question. They just have to order them based on the specific category that I mention. And if they get it right, the good news is that John Burko comes along and says order in a slightly more animated version of that. A burq al-Banger. The Burko-Banger, of course. But if the person gets it wrong, the other person has the opportunity to steal a point. Of course, they will then have to order it correctly.

But if they don't order it correctly, if they try to steal and they get it wrong, they lose a point. So negatives are possible in this game. Harry, kick us off. What number would you like? Number one, please, Ben. It's a real classic number one, isn't it? Yeah. Everyone loves the number one.

Vintage one. Retro. Four drivers. I want you to list them based on how many career laps led they've had. So how many laps they've led in their career. Max Verstappen. Fernando Alonzo. Dr. Nigel Mansell and Kimi Reikinen.

Most to least. Most to least, yeah. Stapen-Elonso are forgotten after Mansell. Mansell and Reichenen. Sorry. Then Reichen and Mantle. It's not the correct order.

Sam, would you like the opportunity to steal this point? Oh, you know, me I love a negative, so yes. Oh, boy. Still, same with the game, in it. I'm going to keep everything the same and then, imagine that. Wait, that's not a good idea.

I do that. The same answer. So I'll just want to swap Manxel and Riking. You swapped one thing. I should have swapped together. You should have swapped two, I'm afraid. We have got a negative on the board because whilst Max Verstappen does lead the way in this category

at 3,326 laps, it's actually Nigel that's second on this list. Have a day off. Believe it or not. He never led that many, surely. 2,091 laps led. No, sorry, don't believe you. That's then followed by Alonzo at 1,773.

and then Reichenen at 1,305. What race was Manxel running? It wasn't one race, I don't think. At 1,000 lap race against children without cars? He's got a sports car. Yeah, he just did like the secure outer ring like every single week before it was built. He is the reason it exists.

Right, Sam, an opportunity for you to get to zero points. What other would you like? I'll have six. Number six, four drivers. I want you to list them based on the best championship position they've ever had. So you've got George Russell, Lando Norris, Pierre Gasley, and Daniel Ricardo. And just to be clear, Lando Norris's position in the 2024 championship, discard that. Only seasons that have finished.

Okay, I'm just writing them down. So we've got Russell, Norris, Gassley and Ricardo. Correct. Okay. Best position. I'm going to say Ricardo Russell Norris Gassley. John. I never get these right.

Are you sure? No, you did get that right. Well done. Daniel Ricardo finished third on two occasions. George Russell was finished fourth. Lando Norris' best finish at the moment is sick, although that's incredibly likely to change this season. and Gassley in seventh was his best ever finish.

So that is absolutely spot on, which means after playing for about four minutes, we're at nil-nil. Harry, I wonder what you like. Number four, please. Yes, you can. Four drivers, I want you to list them based on their first race for Williams.

Okay. So you've got Nigel Mansell, he's back again. The doctor's in there. This is why he's amazing. Everything. Mario Andretti Global Global

Martin Brundall and Alan Jones There's a real issue I didn't know Mario Andretti Race for William Yeah Put him down at end there, mate Less than known fact

I'll go for Andretti first And then I'll go for Big Al Big Al Jones Then Dr Nige And then Martin Brundle no it means

Sam you have the opportunity to steal after it went so well the last time yeah yeah no got to do that one no thank you I love me a negative gets a negative don't like negative don't send me down there again

also forgot what the question was so that always helps you weren't far off Harry actually it's actually Alan Jones was first in 1978 andretti race for Williams quite late in his career

1982 then Nigel Mansell in 1985 and then Martin Brundle, 1988. So just the first two that were the other way round. Do you do a whole season, Andretti? I don't think he did. I could be wrong. Okay.

He was too busy fighting Luigi. Move on. Moving on very quickly. We are, let me check the scores. No, we're still at nil-0. Sam? I think I'll have. I think I'll pick number three, me lord. All right, then.

Three. I'll give you four teammates, four sets of teammates, and I want you to list them based on how many races they've done as teammates together. Okay. So you've got Valtry Bottas and show Guan Yu. Bottas show, yeah. Michael Schumacher and Nico Rosberg. M. Schu Eng Ros.

Mika Hakenen and David Kulthard. Mika Hakenen and David Kulthard, yeah. And Kimi Reikinen and Sebastian Vethel. Kimmy Seb and most races to least races done together yes okay

I'm going to say most Kimi Seb then Hacken Kaltar then Botas show and then Schumacher Rosberg I'm afraid we don't need Burko on this one

it's not the correct order back to my normal getting things run Would you like to try and steal that Harry Nah great still nil nil then you weren't far off Sam it's just the top

two that needed to change one. So Hakenen and Kulthard were teammates for 99 Grand Prix. Then Reichen and Vettel was 81. Bottas and Joe is at 62. And then Schumacher and Rosberg at 58. Harry, back to you for the love of God, score a point. Number five, please, man. Number five.

Four drivers. I want you to list them on how many retired. they've had this year. Okay. Fernando Alonzo. To be clear as well, sprints don't count, just main races. He never finishes as a sprint.

True, yeah. So no counting sprints. Fernando Alonzo, Alex Alonzo, Lewis Hamilton, and Yuki Sonoda. So the most I'll go for

Yuki Sanoda. then Albon, then Hamilton, then Alonso. No. Really? I thought he got that. Would you like to try and steal, Sam? Let me just remember the question. Most DNFs.

Yes. Yeah, and the order is, the people involved. Snowder, Albon, Hamilton, Alon, Alon, Hamilton, Alon, also. Yes, and don't go without order because that's the order, Harry just said. All right, I'm just going to swap Albon and Sonoda.

so I'll still. I'll commit to the bit. You have worked out that the thing you have to do in this game is try and think of the right answer and then just switch the top two. Yes. Yeah, Albin has retired four times,

and Oda three times. Hamilton wants Fernando Alonzo, zero. Wow, what a baller. Doesn't do retirements unless this prince. Unless his career. and then he comes back. Yeah, and even that he doesn't do them properly. Don't do them properly.

Unbelievably, the score is now 1-0. And Sam literally cannot steal his own point, which means you cannot get less than one, Sam. Woo-hoo! I've actually got off zero in this stupid game. Would you like number two or number two? Oh, I think I like number two, please, Ben. Great choice, sir.

I'd like you to list these four circuits based on when they first held a Formula One Grand Prix. Okay. Circuit Jill Villeneuve. Right, yeah. Albert Park. Albert Park. Yeah.

Autodromo Jimanos Rodriguez. That is Mexico. And Suzuki. Suzuki. Okay. That was very Michael Scott of you then. In what sense? Sozuka.

Hey. My phone is auto-correcting circuit to Jill Villeneuve to Gilv to Gilvile. Not Gilvile for me. Right. First time they hosted, I'm going to say Mexico, Suzuki, Viln of Albert Park. It's not correct. Darn. Which means, Harry, you have the opportunity to get this to one all.

Why the hell not? It would be really funny if you said, no, no, fancy it, lost one-nil. I'll take me out. I mean, I can... How do you want to change that? Right, you could do it. We could draw. Come on.

I will go. Oh, God, I don't know. You forget what order I put in the mix? Yeah. Sam's order was Mexico, Suzuki, Jilvil, Nerve, Albert Park. Um... I don't know which ones are wrong on that one. That's...

This is tricky. that's the game that's literally the game I just can't remember if Mexico was I feel I thought that was my question yeah would have been first

I thought it was a cheeky trick that Ben threw in there that maybe he thought oh time doesn't remember it happened back in the day I'll go for Suzuki first and then what then

then second is your moment of then Ben has Autodrome of Homanus Rodriguez always been called that. Well, I don't know. It's not always been called that, but like, under its

previous name, it counts, yeah. It's the same track. Yeah. Then mex, then that one. Then Albert Park. Can you what say? Autodrome of Jimenez Rodriguez? I said it once.

I'm not doing it. It's too long. So you've gone Suzuki, Zilvil, Neuve, Mexico, Albert Park. Yes. No. You just had to swap Suzuki and Mexico, I'm guessing. unbelievably, no.

Moron. That's actually the thing you needed to do. You did need to just make one change, which was Suzuki and Jill Vilnav in the middle of that. So first race at Mexico was 1963. Yeah, I knew it was an olden boy.

Then it was Jill Vilnav, 1978, 1987 was Suzuki, and then 1996 was Albert Park. Can I know the silly thing that I've realized I've done? What? I have forgotten the other

Villeneuve that the track got built for, literally named after the man and thought it was the later Villeneuve. Oh yeah, the circuit Jack Villeneuve? I think Harry would just like quit all F1 at that point. No, not allowed.

Wouldn't watch another race. Oh, I forgot to use around it a while ago. Oh boy. Well, that was exhausting. But after all that, Sam wins. Woo! Finally! I've won't go with a play.

even on one minus one. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, you tried, of course, yeah. You're even worse than that. One minus one. What a game we play? Sam, please get us out of it. I'd love to.

Folks, the next show will be, remember, on the Thursday, it's our live show. We will not be in the normal order. And the same for the weekend. There will be no qualifying review and the race review will come later. If you want to hear your power rankings, of course, Patreon is available.

And we've got loads of Patreon content coming out at the moment. there is a poll going on in our Instagram. If you're part of the Patreon, you'll see it posted, or asking for your snack recommendations in the US. We're going to do a little bit of bill of breaking snack review of all the Americas. A lot of people said Buckees, by the way, just so you're aware, massive petrol station.

So apparently we're going to Buckees at some point, which is great. Is the petrol the thing we're trying? Yes, we're going to drink unleaded. Going to get so unleaded. Don't do that. Don't do that, okay? I'm a serious note. Join the escort,

Luke's in the Giscripi, and you can follow our social as late-breaking F-1, and you can watch us on YouTube late-breaking F-1 as well. Thanks for listening, and we will see you in Texas, and then I promise

we'll stop going on about that awful joke. In the meantime, I'm going to stay as age. I've been Ben Hocken. I've been Harry Ead. And remember, keep breaking late. Global, global.

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