The Late Braking F1 Podcast - What's next for Red Bull and for Lawson?

Episode Date: March 30, 2025

Will Lawson ever return to the Red Bull seat? Ben and Harry cover more of the fallout following the Lawson-Tsunoda swap, and explore the potential long-term futures of both Lawson and the team. The duo also discuss the radio message controversy between Ferrari and FOM after the Chinese GP, as well as the FIA's reported consideration of bringing back V10 engines. They finish by sharing their Top 5 most unexpected F1 victories... FOLLOW us on socials! You can find us on YouTube, Instagram, X (Twitter) and TikTok SUPPORT our Patreon for bonus episodes JOIN our Discord community JOIN our F1 Fantasy League EMAIL us at [e-mail]   & SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. Thank you for listening to the Late Breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. To the late breaking F1 podcast presented by Harry Ead and me, Ben Hocking, on this non-race weekend Sunday. Harry, you turn up for the non-race weekend Sundays. You just don't like races? Don't like race day.

I will confirm next race, folks. there, I will be here. I have to be because Ben won't have a sound board, so there's no excuse me not to do. No, I promise I'll be back properly. But yeah, we're here on a non-race weekend. Actually, Saturdays we record this.

We don't often do just non-race weekend Saturdays. We're just mixing it up. This is very weird. I'm going to like, think it's Monday tomorrow. Yeah, I know. I know, Sam. But that's okay. We'll cope.

We'll manage. I mean, we'll try. we'll do our best. I know you're all just like fast forwarding now to the outro of this episode because that's the most important bit when there's no Sam here. We're the only podcast in the world where people skip to the birthday shoutouts. That retention rate is huge. I'm right, yeah.

We're doing for the retention rate. Yeah, we've still got plenty to talk about on this non-race weekend Sunday. We're going to have a top five of unexpected wins in F1 history a little bit later on. A bit more movement in the discussion around V10s and whether they'll make a introduction to the sport, a bit on FOM and Ferrari from the Chinese Grand Prix as well. But of course, this is the first episode that we've recorded since the official confirmation of the news that Yuki Sonoda and Liam Lawson will be switching seats from the Japanese Grand Prix onwards. The team confirmed it, obviously, the day after we recorded, which is par for the course at this point.

Obviously. Christian Horner said the following in a statement. It has been difficult to see Liam struggle at the first two races, and as a result, we have collectively taken the decision to make an early switch. We came into the 2025 season with two ambitions, to retain the World Driver's Championship, and to reclaim the World Constructors title, and this is purely a sporting decision.

We acknowledge there is a lot of work to be done with the RB21, and Yuki's experience will prove highly beneficial in helping to develop the current car. We have a duty of care to protect and develop, Liam, and together we see that after such a difficult start, it makes sense to act quickly so Liam can gain experience as he continues his F1 career with V-Cab, an environment and a team he knows very well. I know we gave our thoughts on a possible switch on Wednesday,

knowing that it was almost definitely going to happen. But now we've actually got some rationale from Christian Horner. Have we? Thoughts? Oh, well, I know your thoughts. This has been highlighted by a few people, but the line about duty of care towards Liam Lawson is absolute nonsense.

I had to try really hard not to swear. That is, you might as well, who approved that line in whatever press release they put out for this? Because that is, it's just, it's laughable because it's not a duty of care towards Liam Lawson. A duty of care towards Liam Lawson would be, put your arm around him, you know, give him

more than two races. We've had two races. And one of them was a sprint weekend. He had one practice session. And the other one was a rain-affected first race. Both of these circuits, he didn't even race that previously. So a duty of he care would to give him

at least the track he'd been to before. I, we, there are so many things that are frustrating about this. But that line in itself is just, The absolute brass neck of it. What are you talking about? How can you say duty of care towards a driver you've dumped after?

I mean, mentally for Liam Lawson, I sincerely hope he, it doesn't. And I hope he bounces back. But it's, that is mentally crushing because he's, he's not been given. The first he races were terrible. And we will say that they were not good. But he's just not been given a fair chance here. and I'm not sure that Sonoda is

driving really well at the moment but I'm just not sure what this is going to achieve for Red Bull and the most frustrating thing is they could have done this in the winter I shook of in the office

in fact they could have not made had to make decision at all they could just pick the different driver for their Red Bull seat this is an absolute mess and it's got it's it's like they're flailing about now because

I'm really not sure what I really hope Sonoda does well at Suzuki but again he's not driven this car you're going to give it to him on one of the most driver technical circuits on the planet and go off you go Yuki be better than that

oh okay fine oh I'm sorry it's his home race as well so for both of these drivers this sucks it's crap it's a load of absolute crap I mean, your point on him not having driven the Red Bull properly before. I know he did a day in the Abu Dhabi test, but a point that was raised, I think, by Bernie Collins, relating to Liam Lawson rather than Yuki Sonoda,

but I guess it's true for both, is that you look at Antonelli's preparation for F1, and he didn't have a long junior career. They really accelerated him through the junior series, but they did give him quite an extensive testing of previous cars program. Yeah. They haven't really done that for, But either Lawson or Sonoda to get them fully prepared for what we know is a pretty difficult car to drive.

I landed on the same spot as you did in terms of the duty of care line to Liam Lawson. I'm not sure there's a world where I would have fully believed Christian Horner when he was saying that anyway. But it makes it even more difficult to believe when two sentences prior, he said it's a sporting decision. You were right the first time. You can't, it's not both. Like, you made the sporting decision without duty of care in mind. So I don't really buy that. I understand where he says that their objectives are to reclaim the constructors

championship and also win the driver's championship again. But, I mean, sure. Like, that's not a surprise. Of course, that should have been their objective heading into the season. And guess what? They would have been your objectives in December. when you made the decision to go with Lawson rather than Sonoda. It just doesn't make any sense.

And the other line about Yuki Sonoda's experience being helpful in developing the RB21 that hasn't started out brilliantly well, no disrespect to Yuki Sonoda. I don't buy that either. They're not making this move because, you know what, we've got a lot of great engineers around. We've got Max Verstappen who's been in this car a long time, but I think Yuki Sonoda's experience could be the difference. She's the key. He's the key.

We've all been missing it until now. That's the guy. It's the guy with 89 races under his belt. Oh, knew it. Oh, set up genius Yuki Sanosa. How did we see this? Come on. Oh, for goodness sake.

Don't buy any of it. No, it's just a rub it. I don't, it just, it's because they made the wrong call in the first place and they're to backtrack, but this is, it's so obvious. Just don't, don't do it. Do it, lads. Is this set in stone now? Like, might Red Bull actually stick with this version of their lineups for the rest of the year?

Or could you see a situation where they switch again? Oh, they have to. Otherwise, Japan will come for them. All of Japan. They cannot, you're messing with these drivers' emotions and, and mentalities here. you cannot switch them again back the other way round because, oh, do you know, they're going to do it, aren't they? Well, that's the...

Oh, no. I just, I hadn't thought I hadn't considered that as an option yet. Oh, no. Because what if he, what if he... Look, if Sonoda comes in and is, and it has as much trouble with this car as Liam Lawson does and is qualifying at the back, that's to be expected because, again,

he's not driven this car yet. If he has two races where he's as bad, You go, well, that's fair enough because he hasn't driven this car at all. What do they do then? They'll go back. Sebastian Buey might have to be. I mean, hey, he would probably say yes. He would say yes, no doubt.

Scott Speed's back on the radar for Rebel. So it reminds me of something in the paddock with Scott Speed a long time ago. There's a great cliff out there, but not want them to be shed. Oh, Lord. Yeah, I mean, at this point, I wouldn't put it past them, because even by Red Bull standards, after two races, is obscenely savage. And who knows, they could well swap them back. And that would be horrendous for all involved.

And I think this podcast will actually implode. I think we'd pop. We're fairly close already. I think that might tip us over the edge. I mean, my instinct is that they won't make the switch because that would be logical, but Red Bull seemed to be doing things illogically nowadays. So I don't know if that. It wouldn't surprise me if they did switch them again, but my instinct says they don't.

I just think with Liam Lawson, I know he's only done two races and they're beating us the line about him getting more experience and the like. Think back to Pierre Gasly and the amount of good work he did after he was dropped from Red Bull. Now, he did a few more than two races, but he still only did half a season. The amount of good work he did in Torooso and then Alfa Tauri, and still he could not find a way back into that seat. Even when there was pressure on Sergio Perez and he was an option there ready, he had great seasons with Alpha Tauri. Helmut Marco and Christian Horner didn't even seem to entertain the idea. So after what they've seen from Lawson in the first two races,

even if Sonoda struggles this year and Lawson picks up where Sonoda left off in the junior team, I still don't know if they'll make the switch because what if they switch at the same thing happens again? and they're just going to go back and forth, like, nonstop. I, yeah, I don't think they will. God. Ridiculous people. Even if Lawson doesn't get back into that seat this year, is there a future for him at Red Bull at large?

If you want to base it on the evidence of previous drivers who've been dumped by Red Bull, no is the answer. They've decided they're not made it back. I read when this news broke, I think it was Autosport report of this. It was just a little throwaway line in it in a paragraph where they said the Red Bull approached Alex Albon over the winter

and he was like, nah. Do you know what? I'm out. I don't want to do that. Where did that come from? I don't know. Why has everyone been sat on that bit of info? But that's funny. That is funny.

Alex is like, do you know what? I'm okay. I'd rather have a Williams. Right now. Rather a Williams. Pass. Hard pass. But yeah, I think if you go on the base,

are people like Albon, Gassley, Danny Kfayat. Hey, he might be in line to come back, to be honest. It's about time. It's about time. But they've never made it. It's your one chance and done, which is why this is so extremely savage, because he's not out of chance. He's had two races.

This is, I guess, special circumstances. So you've got to say there is some possibility that he could come back to Red Bull, especially if he proved himself again in the racing bill. The thing is, I don't know what they want from him now. What do they want from Liam Lawson at this point? Because what do they need to see that they haven't already seen last year? I, what's going to make them go, all right, you're ready to come back? Because he might well do better in the racing ball.

But maybe because he hasn't got a helmet market looking at him all the time and Christian Horner on him. But I don't know. I just, I don't understand what they would, what's the criteria for them to bring him back into that team, which is why I think, that's why I doubt there will happen because I just don't see the way back for them. I mean, look at Gansley. Gansley got demoted to Tora or so, as it was then,

and then Alphotari, and drove brilliantly from there. He couldn't have done much more. No, and they just would not let him back, would not let him back on that team. When he could have been a viable option, at end of 2020, very viable option to take that seat.

And they didn't, and they gave it to Perez instead. I'm not saying that was the wrong thing, but it's like there's no way back, even if you're driving superbly. So that's why I'm questioning what Liam Lawson could do now to even get back in that team. Yeah, I'm the same because if for Ghazley,

the we remember last time argument won out, every chance the same thing happens here with Liam Lawson, where even if he does perform well in that junior team for an extended period of time, Helmer Marco and Christian Horner and every other decision maker at Red Bull might still remember the time and go, yeah, but those two races,

what if that happens again? We're in deep trouble. So if I was a betting man, I'd probably say right now that he won't get back in that seat at all. And I'm not sure he'll be an F1 next year. I hope that they at least give him the chance to develop and then do consider him for a seat in the future.

But my instinct is they don't. What is the scenario? What is the situation? when we get to Saturday and Liam Lawson has just out qualified Duky Sonoda. Entirely possible.

It's entirely possible. What do they do then? I just don't, I'm waiting by my phone thinking I might get the call up at this rate. D.C. thinks he's got a chance of coming back, I reckon. And Weber.

Yeah, I reckon they'll both do a good job. I mean, what should the team's strategy be from this point onwards? So I appreciate all three of us were clever enough not to get ourselves into this scenario, which is the first time I've ever been able to say all three of us are clever enough. But if you're in their shoes now,

what's the longer term plan? For Red Bull? Yeah. You've got to go outside. I'm sorry, you've got to go outside the program again because who? Yeah. I don't know.

Well, the only driver who I think is, like elite enough to be in consideration. It's George Russell. And I don't think Mustafa's going to allow that. No, and I think George would be like, oh, maybe not. But I don't know who's, who's option number two? The problem is George Russell is the option if Max Rastapen decides he's had enough of this rubbish and goes to Mercedes.

In which case, you need another driver again. You need two drivers. I, this is what I mean. I think they have to go outside the pool again because they, they, they, they, they, they, They got themselves into the situation before Perez, and then they were like, fine, we've got to go outside of our junior talent pool because we've binned off two in the last two years,

and we can't make them quick enough. So they did that. They gave himself a buffer with Perez in the car, and it allowed people like Lawson to come out. I know there was the Ricardo debacle, but Lawson to come up, Sonoda, and now obviously Isaac Hadjar, they started to build up a pool of them.

but already they've binned off one of that pool immediately and Sonoda could be if it doesn't go off of Sonoda that could be two gone in a year that's better than they were doing with Gasley and Albon that was over two years. Yeah. Here they're now averaging two a year. So I think they might have to do the same again

because it's just not going to work with bringing a junior driver into that team if that's the chance they're going to be given. You need someone here. What they're after, what they're after, Red Bull, is a junior drive. with the experience of a driver who's been there for 10 years.

Fernando Alonso. That's the next one. You can imagine Alonzo going away from Aston Martin just before. I mean, that would be very Alonzo to move away from Astero. Yeah. I was kind of thinking the same as you,

like they might have to look outside of the polar drivers and then stumbling upon, ah, there isn't anyone. this really stems back. I was thinking about this. The Nick DeVries hiring of him, that has really cost them.

I know that was a couple of years ago, but the knock-on effect of them hiring Nick DeVries and that not working out. Because if he wasn't in that seat, it might well have just gone to Lawson straight away, in which case he has a lot more experience before making the decision ahead of 2025, in which case they either have more data

to work with to hire him or more data to work with not to hire him. And I feel like it's a more informed decision. And it all goes back to that. I think they'll just be praying that the Yuki Sonoda decision or Yuki Sanoda just being in that seat works out for them. And maybe they can give him a one year deal for 2026 as well. Because if it doesn't work out, I don't know what they're going to do. I do think Lawson and Hachar should remain at V-Carb for the rest of this year.

and then I think at that point you start to consider whether Arvid Lindblad can replace one of those but ultimately they need a reliable second driver alongside Vestappen and if it's not going to be Sonoda I don't know who it's going to be the other thing

just wanted to touch on as well as part of this you might have seen that Max Vastappen liked an Instagram post from everyone's favourite driver with Govandergaard Everyone said Bantagard, obviously. Yep. What did you make of that?

I mean, as part of that, Vandegarde said, in my opinion, this comes closer to bullying or a panic move than actual athlete achievements. He mentions that they crushed Lawson's spirits and Vostappan has liked this post.

All facts, I think, from Vandigard there. They're quite good friends, aren't they, Vandegard and Vastappen, but if you are Matt, I mean, he can't help being that good because he's not held that situation. But even he,

you know, he will recognize that this is, this is just an unfair, unfair move. And, and yeah, like I say, he can't help being that good, but he's the,

he's the bar, the bar, I don't know why that was difficult to say, the bar for, um, these drivers to get to. And they obviously are all struggling to do that. But he,

he must recognize that this is, it's, it's too savage. You know, and he wants to win. And he will, for him to have a teammate that he can, I know he's, he, you know,

he's very much max for himself. He doesn't like team orders, et cetera. But having a teammate is, is more than just having to beat them on track. Often cars improve in teams when teammates feed back off each other. That is generally how it work.

I mean, you look at, go back to the Schumacher days. Schumacher and Barrackado, Barracado wasn't beat Schumaca very often. But as a team, they actually worked well and obviously they did lots of testing

but they would bounce off each other and I think the staff can probably realise is this it's been chaotic he's been willing championships and all around him it's just that that gif of that person

that person running it's just like fire explosions going off everywhere that's him running towards championships and but around him is absolute carnage and I you know Max is a human

after all and I think he must recognise that this is a This is a pretty savage move from his own team. Yeah, I think whilst there were elements of the post from Van der Gaard that were supportive of Liam Lawson and hoping that he was going to recover from this, so there was reason enough to like a post in that sense. But Max Verstappen's not stupid.

Like he would have seen everything that Van der Gaard put in that post and knowingly liked it, knowing what it would look like, what the optics of it are. So I think, yeah, for anyone who thinks that he might have just made an error or I don't see that at all, I think this was very intentional. And honestly, at this point, Red Bull desperately need to keep Vastappen happy because it's increasingly become a one-person team at Red Bull, given Adrian Nui's departure and Sergio Perez's departure. it's to the point now where they are so Vostappan dependent. And if you look back, I was thinking back to like 2017. And the comparison between Red Bull then and Red Bull now,

obviously the car and everything is much better now compared to 2017. But in 2017, they had Vostappan and Ricardo as the two Red Bull drivers. Very solid lineup, not much to choose between them. Obviously, Vastappan's more up and coming, but very solid lineup. In the junior program, they then had Carlos Sines, who had been there for a couple of years and shown what he can do, and Danny Kaviat, who I appreciate was going for a bit of a downturn at this stage. But he had also been at Red Bull and Beats and Ricardo over the course of a full season,

the Manka Drive. And you then had next guy up, GP2 champion Pierre Gasly. That was such a good ecosystem like that. You could see each stage of development. And what we have now just doesn't compare to that at all. It's just, I know that they've promoted Hadjar in time, but Lawson and Sonoda and getting rid of Paris, it's much more of a mess now than it was, I think, like eight years ago.

Let's take our first break on this episode. On the other side, we got a bit on Ferrari. Yay. Welcome back, everyone. Formula One management has spoken with Ferrari after the team raised concerns about its use of Lewis Hamilton's radio messages during the Chinese Grand Prix. Ferrari boss, Freddie Vassar, reportedly called the editing a joke,

arguing it gave a false impression of Hamilton's involvement in the team's lap 21 position swap. Hamilton had first suggested letting LeCler through on lap 18, saying, I think I'm going to let Charles go because I'm struggling, but this message wasn't aired. The first broadcasted clip came from lap 19 with Adamie saying, we are swapping cars turned 14, and Hamilton replying when he's closer yet.

Vasur felt this ignored Hamilton's initiative. FOM has responded, saying there was absolutely no intention of presenting a misleading narrative. The message from Lewis was not played, but this was not intentional. Is Freddie Vass in the right here? Did F1 intentionally mislead? Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think they have here. I can understand why he would be frustrated by this. But, you know, FOM and the team radio is, they have so, there must be so much radio traffic to filter through and cherry pick, which, which ones to play.

And if they're playing out every single team radio to make it, you know, make sure the narrative is presented as, as it is happening, we would just have a race full of team radios. we would never we'd never hit the cars again. So I don't think it's intentional. I can understand it's frustration and, you know, fine to bring it up on this one. Obviously, they then proceeded to play a few team radios around the swap later on. But I don't think, obviously you missed it. We, when we watched the Sky broadcast, did know about this because they have someone else listening to Team Radio. mentioned this on the broadcast.

So we actually did know if you were watching Sky, you would have heard that about the swap. But I don't think not knowing that actually made anything that different in that scenario because there was still, finally he suggested it. And it might seem like he was just ignoring team orders. But he was, there was still some resistance, even if he had suggested it. So I'm not sure it actually changes that much in the story here. And I don't believe Formula One are trying to make some.

you know, there is some dramatization sometimes, but generally with team radios, I don't think they, they do anything on purpose to, to generate false narratives. That's not what they're here to do. They just have to pick as they go.

And that's quite, I mean, that's a difficult job. Sometimes they're probably not going to get it right. And they, they miss that one of, of Hamilton initiating this hop in the first place. But like I said,

there are so many messages to filter through that they're not going to get everyone right. So I understand why, Freddie Vassas brought this up, but I'm not too worried that this is a an issue from, from F1 side. F1 Uxed. F1 Oxt.

He's calling it. It's all a conspiracy. Down with the Ferrari International Assistance and up with the whoever's the beneficiary of this. I don't know. I haven't thought this conspiracy through very well. Yeah, I'll join you in Camp Naive. We'll be the cooks together.

Oh, nice. I, yeah, I just don't think, look, when it comes to F1, I can get behind them being incompetent because I've seen it so many times. Like, incompetence doesn't surprise me from any aspect of F1. So I can believe that they just haven't played this and missed this. Other things were happening at the same time. We had the Lando Norris versus George Russell battle going on at that point as well. There were a lot of pit stops around that time. A lot of messages just don't get broadcast. Like, we have however many laps of a Grand Prix, 20 drivers, almost constant communication from the engineer to the driver for those 20 drivers.

I don't know what percentage it ends up that get played, but it's minuscule. And I can just believe that things happen quickly and they've honestly missed this. And I don't know, maybe I'll get some slack for this as well. but the way I read the message honestly what would he say is like I'm going to let Charles go

because I'm struggling when it comes to Lewis Hamilton's team radio he can quite often be negative that almost sounds like a throwaway line that Hamilton would say when he's really down bad like I'm struggling

I'm just going to let Charles go at this point like it's not if it said we should go ahead and make the switch. And I think I'd have believed more that he definitely should have been played. But the way it sounded to me, it was like, that could be something that Hamilton just says when he's annoyed, he's not quick enough.

So, do you think he didn't expect Ferrari to actually act on it? And he's like, oh, well, hang on. Well, let's slow down. I didn't mean it. Should they have replayed it later or clarified it or anything like that? Everyone needs to grow up, quite frankly. I don't think so. Again, like I said, I don't think it really changes what the scenario that then played out afterwards.

I don't think the context was that massive. And it feels like we're getting into the stage of worrying about what this looks like because people on Twitter will complain about it. And that's the number one audience. Those are the people we need to appease. We need to keep those people happy. Yeah, so I just. don't think it's needed.

I don't think it's that big a deal. If it was something more controversial or more, like you said, the comment could have been a throwaway comment from Hamilton. If it was, then yeah, fine, maybe later on it's worth, it's worth clarifying whether they do that after the race on like social media or something. I don't know. But I think they're making a, what's the phrase?

A mountain out of a molehill. Yeah, you got it, mate. nailed it. Thank you. The only thing, the only thing I think they should maybe introduce is, you know, when the team radio graphic comes up on the right hand side of the screen,

but it's often delayed at least a little bit. It's almost just putting like the lap counter of when it was said. Because quite often like the commentators are guessing like, oh, I think that's a delayed message. Or that must be a delayed message because that overtake. already happened or that switch for position because of an illegal overtaker's already happened, whatever it might be. I think that might just add a little bit more clarity.

But I think replaying this radio message later on in the race would have just been confusing. I just think people would not really know what's going on. And again, it's not like the commentators have all of this information and they're choosing to either disclose it or not disclose it. The commentators are guessing with us at the same. time. So I know with some things that they will almost replay team radio, but they've got some footage to go with it. So if say there's a battle for the lead of the race, but at the same time,

there's also a battle for 13th and there's contact, let's say, between minor contact between the battle for 13th, but it's not shown at the time, they will sometimes go back and show the footage and also play the team radio at the same time. But that would be really confusing if it was just the team radio. And in this instance, there's not like there was any footage to go along with Hamilton's message of, I'm struggling.

So, yeah, I, Mountain Mole Hill, great analogy for this one. There's, there's just no, no need to come down Ferrari. You've got bigger things to worry about. I don't know if you noticed.

Yeah. Double BSQ. Cokes on that. Yeah, but the team radio, will someone not think of the team radio? And if someone can please edit that onto the Simpsons gift, that would be great. In terms of like taking it away from just Ferrari and this episode, like if we're thinking about Team Radio at large,

are you relatively happy with the way that it works at the moment? Do you think that anything else could be done? I know a couple of years ago we had the infamous Michael Massey talking to team bosses thing that didn't last very long, but is there anything you'd like to see more or less of when it comes to this sort of thing. Okay. I would bring that back. The problem was the team, wasn't the team radio,

sorry, it wasn't broadcasting team radio. The problem was anyone and their cats could talk to Michael Massey that year and we heard it all. If you keep it to just, you know, the people that are the, meant to, like, people like, oh God, what's somebody say?

It was Jonathan Wheatley when it's not anymore. But Ron Meadows, have I made that up? Yeah, yeah, meadows. Yeah. The Mercedes. Those people are the ones that should be talking to the race director. I would love to have that back. I think that would, it was a really good added element.

Obviously, it was iconic for some of the messages we got, like not reading his emails during a race. But I actually, when it, when it wasn't just like pure chaos and drama, it added some nice insights to what we didn't used to have. And I actually think it's a shame that I know why it's been canned. Because I know it's been canned. But I thought we did get some nice insights in 2021 with that one. So I'd bring that one back.

The rest of it, I think we do pretty well for team radio insight. I look where we used to be. I think we do very well for hearing the comms between, hearing the comms between their team and driver. And actually, I know it's a little bit delayed, but often it's, we're pretty spot on. And I have enjoyed the relatively recent edition as well of not hearing it, but they just, they type it up.

That's a nice one as well, just because you can't, like I said, they can't always be playing team radio because it would just be team radio all the time. So I think that's a good, good thing.

Yeah. I also like, with the last thing you said, if a driver's had some sort of a crash or an incident and they're getting out of the car, it's just like, we don't care what they've said to each other. It's just going to be,

I'm okay. We're not going to type out of the rest of it. The people just need to know they're all right. They're okay. I'm okay. I absolutely agree that the line of communication between team principal and race director, not team principal, but like sporty director and the race director, that should come back. I think the problem for F1 is it just highlighted Michael Massey's incompetence.

And a lot of people go back to Abu Dhabi and the, it's a motor race to toe toe line and that sort of thing. What do you mean, what happened to? We'll talk about it another day, but it's a fairly low-key moment here on history. People forgot about it fast. Very quickly, yeah. Yeah. The one that got me was the race before. Do you remember Saudi Arabia when they were trying to work out like the restarting around the red flag?

God. That race was hell. I don't remember the exact details, but like Esteban Okon was for some reason right up there. and they were like, he was like negotiating with Red Bull or Mercedes to be like, ah, well, no, we're not going to do that, but how about this instead of offering up solutions? That's not the job of a race director. I forgot that. That was, oh, I'm scarred.

Exactly. And that's, I think, part of the reason why they can be is it just kind of showed the FIA to be themselves. But, well, luckily, if they did it now at nothing. be really confident and good. Not at all. Yeah, I actually think it would be a good idea to bring it back. Yeah, I agree. Before we go to our second break, Harry,

stars. This is where we've got to now with this plug. It's just, oh, stars. No, I'm thinking about the concept of stars. Interesting things, aren't they? Yeah, they are actually, mate. They're like gains. Yeah.

You know what? I'd take five stars over five gains anyway. Folks, there's an insight before this podcast. Ben was trying to work out how to turn down the gain. I say Ben was. We were as a pair. Anyway. It's worked, Kirstie.

Thumbs up. Yeah, folks, if you've enjoyed this podcast so far, which I have no doubt you will have done. And you want to show the love and appreciation that you have for just me and Ben doing this Sunday slash Saturday non-race weekend podcast. Leave a five-star review. Not one, not two, not three, not even four, a big fat five. It really helps us to grow the podcast.

I know we say this every time, but it truly doesn't. It helps, gives us more visibility so that more people can come along and enjoy the fun, just like you guys listening or even watching. So yes, please do Chuck five stars wherever you listen to your podcast and if you're on the platform that allows you to write a review as well

you can write gains Michael Massey's Gaines There you go Yeah just nothing negative And if you haven't enjoyed it Yeah, you're a full obviously

But if you haven't And just walk away Turn the podcast off walk away. Don't leave a bad review because that doesn't help us. But like I say, five stars and write whatever you want, we don't care. Great. We've really nailed that as good as ever. I actually would say. Let's take our second break on this episode.

On the other side, we've got chat about the potential for V10 engines. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Welcome back, everyone. The FIA has confirmed it is seriously evaluating a range of future engine scenarios in Formula One, including a potential return to V10 power units running on fully sustainable fuels. FIA single-seater director Nicholas Tombasis said discussions are still in early stages, but no options are off the table, including the possibility of shortening the 2026 engine cycle. While the current 2026 regulations remain in place, recent comments by FIA President Mohammed Ben-Suliam

about a V-10 comeback has sparked renewed debate, Tombasis acknowledged the high cost, and complexity of modern power units, suggesting a simpler engine solution, could become viable thanks to sustainable fuel progress. However, he did emphasise any shift would require broad consensus and would not be imposed unilaterally, especially with manufacturers like Audi, having committed to the sport on the basis of the agreed regs. Mercedes boss Toto Wolf also had his say on this, suggesting F1 would look a little bit silly to attract the likes of Audi based on a set of regulations, only to move on after three years. Harry, we spoke about this relatively recently

when Mohammed Ben Suleim floated the idea. But I think even that was with more of a focus towards 2013. Now we're looking at maybe 2028. What utter woke, no, hang on, that's not what it is. The opposite. Yes, utter woke brilliant. look I understand I understand the what toto is saying in terms of it would look silly if you have a tracked out of based on this new engine reg and then backtrack on it but also as a as a you know a rebut a rebuttal a rebuttal

rebuttal to that. It's not up to you, Toto. It's up to the sport. And if you don't want to run those, you don't want to run those engines and then move on. I, look, I've maintained, I think we're in a position now where we can do this because we've said for a while,

make engines big and louder again and run them on sustainable fuels because complicated, the complicated engines we, have currently and even the 26 ones, they are expensive to make and run. And we've seen how difficult it is for new teams to emerge in the sport. Now, I know that's up to various reasons, not just the engine, but we saw the likes of when these engines first came in. I know, I know catering and Manor slash Marussia at the time when it was actually doing much, but it killed them. It killed both

those teams off. And it's sad to see, we want more teams in the sport. And if a V-D- 10 engine would be a cheaper option to run. Plus, they sound so good. They sound so good. And in a sport that, you know, wants to be as entertaining and dramatic as possible, I think V10s, V10s will,

and not to sound like old fogies talking about new drive-to-survive fans of F1, but there will be so many people who have been introduced F1 and will just have never heard or watched a V10 F-1 race. I've heard V-10 engines just on the current cars

when Drive to survive decide to do that Oh yeah, sorry, that's a good point. Yeah, yeah, that's a valid point. But when they watch a race, normally they won't hear a V-10.

And I think it will it will just add another layer to the sport for everyone. So I'm not against this idea. And again, like I say, to Toto's comments, I just, this is what I hate about the teams at the moment

and they're saying F-1 should not be up to them. If you don't like, it, then go away. It shouldn't be up to you. I know that is maybe a naive attitude to have towards your manufacturers, but it's, it's, I shouldn't be up to the teams. It's the F1 and FIA's decision of what they do with this sport in terms of for the rules and the regulations, and you enter your team based on that and just get on with it. I acknowledge that there is an ongoing, I guess you could call it a problem that there's nothing you can really do

about it, but there is an ongoing problem of you have to set the regulations quite far in advance to ensure the teams have the necessary time to make the investment. And by the time you get to the point of those regulations, the world can and sometimes has changed enough that something else makes sense. So I do understand an argument of, you know, let's wait until 2030 for V10 engines, but then we get to 2029 and by that point, actually something else makes sense. It is an ongoing problem I do appreciate. I also understand that the manufacturers have already spent quite a large amount of time and effort on the 26 regulations and they would have made that investment with five years

in mind to drop that down to potentially three years, particularly in the case of a new entry like Audi. That would have impacted their decision or at least would have impacted their thinking at the time of making the decision. So it's unlikely those teams would be at least straight away. They would be happy or okay with this decision and they'd probably fight back. To your point, the way you get them on board is to, I don't know, provide a worthwhile opportunity cost where if they are much cheaper to run, that's surely good for. the manufacturers. Maybe they would take a hit on whatever the current regs or the 2026 regs will be.

But if then from 2028 onwards we are running simpler, cheaper, easier engines, then maybe they recoup that investment that way round. I'm not sure how others would perceive this. I understand Toto Wolf is talking about F1 being a reliable partner. And if you are going away from regulations earlier than you say you're going to, then that maybe makes you more unreliable, and maybe it could discourage future investment. But I think I'm with you that manufacturers should be a part of the sport,

not leading the sport. With that in mind, should the FIA really be the ones to lead this in their vision? And then manufacturers should they have input? Should they be following? Or should they have more of a say? No, I'm making it 100%. It should just be down to the FIA. and Formula One to decide these rules.

I think for too long we've had, we've had, you know, the initial hybrid engines that came in 2014 in 2014 were all because, all because of teams like Mercedes sort of championing them and lobbying them to, to change this because we had to, you know, to make them road relevant, which I hate as a reasoning for a sport to use, certain rule sets. The double R.

Oh, the double R. It's just nothing in F1. There are things, I'm sure, technologies that, you know, transcend down through into road cars, but nothing in F1 is road relevant for crying out loud. It's all done to make your car go quicker.

I don't know. I've seen plenty of cars on the road that have the same pace as the LP. Oh, burn. So, yeah, I've never bought that idea, and I hate the fact that it's been team, or big manufacturers that have been lobbying the FIA to do this. And I would much prefer,

much prefer the FIA to just set the rules. Here is our sport. Here is our list of regulations. Would you like to come and join us? Pay $1,000 million at the same time. But yeah, I don't want, I don't want F1 teams to be deciding the rule set because they'll make it boring. Yeah, F1 teams are boring.

conclusion. I'm not saying that the manufacturers should have like zero influence. I'm happy for them to weigh in, but I'm with you in that it should be the FIA leading this and it should be the manufacturers that are following. It's the FIAs, I'm sorry, the FIA, it's kind of your job. It's kind of your responsibility to set the rules according to what you want the sport to be and what it stands for, etc.

It does need to be a partnership, no doubt, about it, but I am sure there are a number of willing manufacturers. If you would set a right formula and the current lot don't like it, there will be, there will be teams lining up. I am very sure of that. So, yeah, stick to your guns, FIA. You mentioned earlier about the return of the sound of the V-10s. Do you think it would result in an increase in new fan interest?

would it bring back older fans that have fallen out of love with the sport? What would the impact of it be? I didn't consider older fans that might have had enough. It might bring some of them back. I do, like I said earlier, I think it could just add another layer,

not that F1 is lacking in excitement, but to watch a V10 F1 car go past is like having your ears punched. which is a good thing in this scenario. But in a good way. It's really hard to describe the sensation of that. And obviously on the TV, it's a bit different. But for those in the stands, I think it will add such a new element of excitement

because they like thunder through your rib cage, especially when there's 20 of them or 22 of them going past you. But I think it would just, I'm not saying this is like going to cause a surge of brand new fans to enter the sport, but I think you'll just, you'll pick up a few here and there and maybe ones that were slightly on the fence along the way. I think it just adds another layer. I've kind of always been on the side of I like the sound of the V10s,

but equally it's not like it's never been a deal breaker for me. I've never been as nostalgic about the noise as I think some have. but equally if we could return to that, I would. And I kind of see the V10 noises. I don't think it would be a game changer. I don't think it would bring masses through the doors. I think it would, it's almost like a good opener. Like I think it could attract, because of the nostalgia,

it could attract some more casual fans just to give it a go. And then I think the other factors take over to keep people there. like the exciting championship battles, the exciting racecraft, whatever it might be, there are different reasons that people fall in love with the sport. But I feel like the noise is almost like opens the door for everything else to then take over. So yeah, I think maybe whether it's older fans falling back in love with the sport or I think more likely newer potential fans, I think it could have a small benefit. Let's take our final break on this episode.

On the other side, we've got a top five list of our favorite unexpected wins. Oh, welcome back everyone. It's time for a top five list. I haven't done one of these in a little while. This time we've picked out our favorite unexpected wins. And that's from any era. We'll see if we come up with some similar answers. And of course, we are always interested in hearing what you have to say.

So let us know what's your favorite unexpected win of all time. and does it appear on our list? Do you think we're going to miss anything in our top fives? Harry, kick us off. What have you got number five? Number five, Ben. I have all of these. You'll be pleased to know.

The one task. I've put Johnny Herbert, European Grand Prix, 1999. We actually reviewed this on our Patreon, Historic Race Review. So if you want to hear what we said about that, then pairs of money. you're not wrong yeah exactly um yeah johnny herbert year in 99 it was a it was it was it's one of i mean 1999 is a season is a pretty classic one actually but this this was getting down to the the the decider towards the decider for the championship um and basically no one wanted to win that

race so and so johnny herbert was like oh well i'll take that that's good um yeah it was you know, you had people like Eddie Irvine who had to wait in the pit for about three days for some tires. Oh, and his teammate also had the same problem because Ferrari. They really ferraried that one. Big Ferrari. Frensen was leading for a while in the Jordan,

you know, title contender at that point, which is pretty mad for Jordan. But his car after a pit stop was like, nah, I don't do that anymore. Broke down. DC, another title contender, David Coulth in McLaren. He was then leading and he was like,

nah, two-stipper on this track. I'm going to fall off. Ralph Schumacher then was going to win and then he had a puncture. And in the end, Johnny Herbert in the Stuart, which is now a Red Bull,

technically, the Milton Keynes team, a Stuart which hadn't had a huge amount of success, although 1999 was definitely their best year before they sold it. He takes the win. And his final win in FOS, third and final win,

I believe. Yes. Yeah, it was a crazy rate. and it was certainly unexpected. You would not at the start. Because I think he started something like 14 or something. Yeah.

So he came from a long way. And he just was one of those days where he just had to keep your car intact working on the black stuff rather than in the gravel or the barrier. And he did. That one definitely was a consideration for my list. It didn't quite make it. And probably the only reason it didn't is I'm just still annoyed

that Barrichello never got a win in that Stewart because... He should have done. No disrespect to Johnny Herbert. Barrakello just really deserved to win in that Stuart. And of course, he had to settle for a podium. So, yeah, we'll start with Herbert in 1999. I'm going to a race that we haven't reviewed yet as part of our historic race reviews,

but maybe one that we will at some point because it was a very impressive first victory for Sebastian Vettel at the 2008 Italian Grand Prix. I mean, Torosso, I think, had shown signs of being okay. going into that race. They were coming off the back of a sixth place at the European GP and then a fifth place at the Belgian GP,

but I don't think anyone was ready for what they were able to do at the Italian GP at Monza. For whatever reason, in the mostly wet conditions of that weekend, the Tour also just clicked with that track. Now, Vettel took them, Vettel was the one who took advantage of it.

But, like, Sebastian Bordeaux, his teammate, who hadn't really shown much all year, he qualified fourth. So clearly the car itself was tuned up to the circuit. But even with Borde A fourth, he was still nine tenths away from Sebastian Vessel, who was lightning quick to take pole position. He was also fastest in Q2 before that. So it wasn't like a fluke pole.

Like he was genuinely that quick. And then, yeah, in the race itself, he, in the first part of that race, he just absolutely takes off. Some of the other contenders in better cars started to come back towards him little bit in the second half of the race, but by that point, it was too late. And I forget the exact margin that he won by, but it was very comfortable over Hakey Koviline in the end. So that's number five on my list. Nice. I actually, he's not in my top five. And it's almost, I think, biased because

now you look at it and go, well, yeah, he should do Sebastian Bessel. But at the time, you're right, at all or so, which was previously a Monardi, winning a race was pretty unheard of. And I mean no ill will versus towards Red Bull in any way. but there's nothing Red Bull can do about the fact that the sister team got there first. That's going to be there forever. Yeah. What's number four on your list?

I've put Ricardo Petrazi at the 1982 Monaco GP. Sorry, you've just gone with a race where no one wanted to win. To another one. This was its dad. Exactly. This is the OG.

Folks, again, we've not reviewed this one either on the historic race review, but this one I would recommend going back and trying to watch, or at least the highlight somewhere, because it's just the most 1980s F1 thing I've ever seen in my life,

especially the broadcast, because it cannot keep up with the amount of carnage. So we had René Arnoux took a pole position for this race. He lasted 15 laps because he spun out at the swimming pool. So his teammate, Alan Prost, he took the lead, and then he spun out other chiquet, other Nouvelle chiquet. so he crashed out so he wasn't leading anymore

and there was only three laps from the end he did this so Prost had led from about lap 15 onwards this had the lead with three laps away from the end remember this handed the lead to Petrazi who then decided to spin at the Loz Hairpin I'd like to say as well it was slightly it was slick still but it was like kind of damp weather in Monaco so Petraezy spun so he stalled

he's lost the lead. Remember I said he won this. It then got given to Didea Peroni in the Ferrari, but he ran out of, he broke down in the tunnel, so then he lost the lead. Then it was given to Andrea Treasuris, but if you're watching this,

Peroni has gone out, and then it cuts to Andrea DeCesaris' car, and there's no one in the car, because he's crashed. He's not even had chance to take the lead, but he's just out already. So he's out. Then that meant that Derek Daly was now the leader.

But his gearbox seized up on the final lap. So that meant Ricardo Bhtrayze, who had spun, again, this will happen in three laps. He spun, took the win. And I'm putting it down to unexpected because the fact that three laps in the end, he spun and stalled and still won. is ridiculous. Well, I'm Ricardo. That whole season is just utterly ridiculous.

I forget how many drivers took wins and took podiums in that year, but it was basically everyone. No one had any sort of consistency. I think Keke Rosberg won the title, and he had like 44 points on the year. Alan Prost. Alan Prost won the first two races of that year. Basically retires from like every race up until like the last year,

and he's still somehow in championship contention. Like it's such a weird season. Number four for me, activate Brit bias here. 2006 Hungarian GP. Yes. Come on. A race that Harry is desperate to release.

Please. Choose it. I think people forget because, like, we've, in terms of like a very British perspective on this, but Lewis Hamilton has obviously been successful for a very long time. People forget how it, wasn't all plain sailing for Brits around this time. Like, you'd had Damon Hill win the World Championship 10 years before this.

But then really, you only had Kulthar picking up a few wins here and there. Sounds going to kill you, son. I don't see any championships. But even that, like he won the 03, like the first race in 2003. But that was the last time a British driver had won a race going into this middle of 2006 Grand Prix. Jensen Button himself, it'd obviously come into F1 with a bit of expectation. And he'd achieved 50 point scoring positions, 13 podiums, a ton of pole positions as well, and a really good 2004 season.

He'd come close to victories a couple of times, but never quite got there. And here we are at the Hungarian GP, 2006, Honda haven't produced a great car. they were looking all when they were BAR at the end of O'5, they were looking all right. They get to 2006 and they've fallen off a bit.

He starts 14th in this race, which by the way, this is the Hungarian GP and we'd been going there at this time for about 20 years, pretty much 20 years dead on. This was the first ever wet Hungarian GP. Good Lord.

Yeah, that's mad. I know it's in the European summer in Hungary, but like the first ever wet, we've also had quite a fusion center. that. It's so weird. But anyway, he starts 14th. For whatever reason, those on the Bridgestone tires really struggled in that Grand Prix,

Jensen Button, not on the Bridgestone tires. He was on the Mishlands. He didn't pit under a safety car that happened, which really helped him out, elevated him up to second place. Fernando Alonzo's car said, no, which essentially then just gave Button the win. And he was able to quite easily take it home from, Pedro de la Rosa in second. Obviously.

His only career podium. And of course, like the amazing commentary of James Allen and featuring Anthony Davidson crossing the line. Friend of the podcast. Yeah. So yeah, that's number four on my list. We've got number three. Number three, same track, same weather conditions,

different driver. Estebanok on Hungary. Steok. 2021. Yeah. in that season the season itself, we've already mentioned on this podcast, 2021 was just,

it just felt like, sure, that's happening now. And the carnage we had at turn one, that's never happened again. It didn't happen before. It's not happened since. But it was utter carnage at turn one in Hungary, 21.

Botas to size that he hates everyone on the grid, takes out about three cars. Lance Strull goes, well, that's a solid idea. I'm going to copy that. Takes out a couple more just for good. the other day

the onboard of it resurfaced from Ocon's point of view and he's just like there and it's just everyone out in front of him just wipes out apart from Hamilton he goes up up the road

so yeah so obviously he gets he inherits second immediately then it's a red flag we have a restart Hamilton decides that he doesn't want slugs

when everyone else does and Ocon Ocon takes lead only I say that doesn't George Russell like jump a load of cars out of the pits but then he has to shuffle back because you're not allowed to just overtake people.

Sure. But yes, Ockon resumes the lead when Hamilton has to pit for slicks a lap later. And then he has to hold off four-time world champion Sebastian Metal for the entire race. Betel's just sound as gearbox for 60 laps or whatever and that's a lot of pressure because he wants to pick up his first win

and he's got a four-time champion. And I know it's difficult to overtaking hunger. agree, but it was a wet, dry day and it's very easy to make a mistake, and O'Con did not. So very unexpected win for Alpine. And, you know, who knows? That might be O'Hon's only win, but we'll see. Oh, bloody hope not. Come on, Kamatsu, Cook.

Cook. I'm not saying this through bias in terms of Esteban Okon, but I'm really glad he did hold off Sebastian Vettel to win that race, because if he didn't, and Sebastian Vettel had won, and then Vettel later got disqualified. I would have been whilst. Ocon would have inherited the win. And I mean, it still would have been a good moment, but him winning on track was a much more memorable first of 115 wins

that he'll take in the sport. We seem to be having a bit of a theme of wet races here. And I wouldn't be surprised if this is many people's number one, but I'm putting it at number three. And that is the 1996 Monaco Grand Prix won by Olivier Panis. I didn't realize, because I had a look and sort of researched F1 a few years before this, just to remind myself of where everything was at. If you weren't in a Benetton, a McLaren, a Williams or a Ferrari,

for like 10 years before 1996, you weren't winning a race. Like F1 had become so after the early 80s that you sort of mentioned, where it seemingly, if you had a car, you had a chance of taking a win, It got to a point where you had to be in one of those four teams, otherwise you had no shot. You have to go back to 1987 for the last time someone outside of those four teams took a win when it was in center and a lotus. Pannis, though, in this 96 Monaco GP, the weather, not great, pretty wet. He needed some help in that Damon Hill retired from this Grand Prix.

Michael Schumacher retired from this Grand Prix, which I still love. because the very next race after people were probably questioning, is he really the rain master? We got Spain 96, which if you haven't seen that race or heard of that race, Schumacher's pretty good in that one. Yeah. But he still needed to hold off David Coulthard at the end of this Grand Prix,

and he took Ligier's first win since 1981. And of course, the team itself was sold to Prost at the end of this year, and no disrespect to Proste. they didn't really do anything in their existence either. So it was almost like a one last good moment for this team before going off into the sunset. So yeah, Panis 96, Monaco, GP. Number two, what have you got?

A fellow Frenchman, Pierre Gazley, Monza, Italian GP, 2020. And I've put this above the Ochen one because in the Ochen one, as I said, 2021 was just, you watched a race and went, sure, that's happening because it's 2021. Monza 2020 in a year that was dominated by Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton, this was a crazy, crazy race. And it was a real, that whole podium was such a real feel-good podium. Everyone was delighted to be up there.

We had Gasly, Carlos Seines, who was also chasing his first one at that point, but didn't get it. And Lance Trull, who was the happiest he's ever been in his life, ever and since at that point. By a long way. By a long way. They're all just so happy to be. It was a real feel in what was a tough year

just in general for 2020. It was a real feel good moment. And the season itself, 2020, I guess, I don't remember it ever. But it actually is probably a bit underrated because we had a good season. It was just a shame that the top two were always the same or top three

were always the same. If you took them out, if Hamilton and de Stap and Bottas out, we'd have had a, you know, actually an all-time great. And obviously that then sort of manifested into 2021, I think. But it still, you know,

it felt like we were watching a lot of the same week in, week out. And Gasly's win was a, was a really unexpected addition to that season. And yeah, you know, there was a bit of luck involved as, as it is in most unexpected wins. but Gazzley was there to pick up the pieces. Quite frankly, I know Stroll was delighted.

He should have won that. He should have won that, right? He fluffed up his restart, and Gassley took advantage, as did sign. So, yeah, it was a real, real good moment. Snap. Yeah, same for me. Snap. I was thinking, just, did we have an unexpected winner of a Grand Prix

in the time between this win and like 2012? Like, I know that this Mercedes was so dominant. I know we had a few wins here and there for like Ricardo and Vettel, but like this was the first unexpected win in a long time. Since Maldonado, I guess is what you're referencing. Yeah, I think Maldonado. And even Maldonado was like genuinely quick on the weekend that he won. Whereas this was more, and no disrespect to Gassley,

this was more of a, it fell in his lap race. But he still executed it wonderfully. Yeah, they might have had the best time to pit stop of all. time. We've bemoaned V-Carbs strategy over the first two race weekends of this season. They nailed it here because they stopped just before Kevin Magnuson essentially blocked the pit lane with his retirement, which is why Lewis Hamilton, who then decided to still pit, took a penalty, which really cost him. But even then, it fell into strolls lap more than it did Gazleys because we had a red flag for Charlotte Clur's crash. And he really fluffed his, like,

he got a free pit stop and fluffed his lines. Yeah, Ghazley holds off signs, as you say. Signs were searching for his first win as well. I think half a second separated them in the end. So just a really good, after what happened to Gasley in 2019, not only was it an unexpected win, it was a real feel-good win at an appropriate time. What is on top of your list?

And the day, he was not defending thin air, Gigale Physiquella, Brazil, 2003. we mentioned earlier, or I mentioned earlier, sorry, in 1999, this was only four years previously, Jordan were in a position to be challenging for a championship, which was mad. By the time you get to 03,

Jordan are a backmarker team. It's gone. And, you know, we've praised Eddie Jordan, obviously. And this is not, you know, it was time for EJ to move on, basically. And he had a year left after this, of him running that team. And,

Fizzy winning in a Jordan at that point would be like, I don't know, we don't really have any, we don't really have any properly back market teams. I guess it would be like a steak winning. Yeah. That it would be like, it'd be like Gabriella Bortoletto winning a race right now. And it was, it was obviously, again,

this is another one we've reviewed on a historic race review, I believe. Yes. But the race itself was absolute carnage. it was a wet race in Brazil and obviously we've seen what that could produce. Most people just crashed out including the likes of Montoya,

Michael Schumacher, who else did in the barriers. Pitsonia, I think was in that turn three chaos. There were loads that binda on the day. Some people had issues. Barakello probably should have won it but he's Brazilian and you can't win in Brazil

unless you're at in the center. And it was between Reichen and Fizzy. And the thing is, It was Reichen in a McLaren and Fisichela in a Jordan. But Reikening was being challenged and made a mistake. And Fizzy gets through. And then there's a red flag because Fernando Alonzo and Mark Weber decide they've had enough of their afternoons. They're really like tires going absolutely everywhere.

Absolutely everywhere. So it's red flag, not restarted and Fizzy pigs up the win. There's confusion afterwards about who actually won it, but Fizzy wins that race. and it was a real you look back now and I mentioned this was sort of the real latter end of the Jordan the Jordan team's

existence in terms of being called Jordan and being run by EJ but this was like the greatest I think Swan song they could have asked for because it was it was the last time a real Minos back market team won I know we've had Alpha

Tarry win and Alpine, but you wouldn't call them backmarkers now, because we don't generally generally do have them. But this was a big, a big day. And I'm certainly unexpected when you start watching that race. For context, by the way, Jordan scored 13 points that season. With 10 of them at Brazil. 10 of them were at Brazil. Like, they finished 9th of 10 teams. And I'm pretty sure the only reason they finished 9th was this result. So that's an absolutely fair one. sixth on my list, actually, the physical one. I think it's appropriate that you've gone for Jordan's Swan Song, as you call it, because I'm actually going to bookend this

and go to their first win in 98 when Damon Hill won the Belgian Grand Prix. This is one I like to go back and watch every once in a while, like one of those races because it's just not only is the end to this Grand Prix brilliant, but it's just absolutely Carnage Field. If you haven't seen the first attempt at the first lap, you probably should. It's one of the most iconic. They gave it a go.

That wasn't the issue. They gave it too much of a car laughing line. On this is a bit of a tangent. If they didn't have spare tea cars, spare cars in those days, there had been no one left, no race. Basically no one left, yeah. You're right. So because they had T cars,

some or most of the drivers were able to get going for this set, for the second start of this race. A few didn't because they only had one T-car per team and in a lot of instances, both drivers crashed out. So they had to make a choice between which one got in the T-car and which one sat out the rest of the day. 1998 was absolutely dominated by McLaren and Ferrari, not really much of a looking for any other team.

Jordan had failed to score in the first eight races of this season, but they were starting to improve a little bit towards the end of the year. Damon Hill was two years removed from winning the championship at this point, but had spent an awful year at Arrows in 1997, where, to be fair, he nearly claimed victory at the Hungarian GP. If he claimed that win, that would probably be number one. But he nearly does that. But anyway, really tough season.

Moves to Jordan for 1998. Jordan at this point, I've raced in 126 Grand Prix and hadn't won any at all. And then this race happens, where Michael Schumacher has, about a 40 second lead on Damon Hill in second place. A very infamous incident between Kulthard and Schumacher, Kulthar being lapped where they come together and not only on track, but also in the pit lane. That essentially gives Jordan the one too.

Damon Hill working the team radio a little bit to ensure that he was the one of the one two with Ralph Schumacher in second place. But absolutely love this race, absolutely love the moment of them crossing the line because Murray Walker's commentary of Damon Hill wins in Belgium. Fantastic. Just epic.

So, yeah, both got Jordan number ones, but just slightly different times. How appropriate. That's excellent. Before we get out of here, we do need to. It's the last episode of the month. Here we go.

Which means, and I'll do this for you, Sam. Sorry, Kirstie. Happy. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. It's birthday shoutout. So if you're on our top tier on Patreon, you get a birthday shoutout at the end of your birthday month.

So if you are part of that top tier and you haven't let us know what month your birthday is in, just send us a message on Patreon and we'll make sure it's on our list. But who is on our list this month? We've got firstly, Dexter, March 13th, happy birthday to you. we've got Catherine Walker March 16th South of Dawn March the 1st

Josh Dunkley March 20th Katie Abgar March 19th Sammy from Sao Paulo is March 14th and Tyler your birthday is all of March so congratulations well done Tyler yeah you've really won this life thing but happy birthday too you all

but someone else wants to wish happy birthday I think don't they Oh yeah, of course they do. Take it away, Stevie. I should have put this underneath. We should have... Yeah. Done the half-bathesies underneath it.

Yeah, I mean, you'll be pleased to know that normal service will be resumed in April. I say that. Sam might not be here. We don't want to promise anything, but I think we'll make it be here to do the birthday shadows. Yes.

It doesn't matter what condition. It's a long intro there, isn't it? Yeah, come on, Stevie. Get on with it. Anyway, that's enough. I've got things to do, Stevie. Come on. I'm doing milk in the moment, Stevie.

God. Outside of birthday shoutouts, of course, it does mean that we have to do our classic without Sam outro. Now, let's make sure we tick them all off. Firstly, if you're not a member of our Patreon, please consider subscribing. The link is in the description.

Three different tiers with different benefits on each. A lot of different benefits to run through, but namely power rankings. We're not going to say them. A lot of benefits, but I thought you have to find out. It'll take a long time to get through them all. No, power rankings is back because we're back in the F1 season now. So we've had the Chinese Grand Prix power rankings and Oz GP.

And of course, if you do subscribe, you'll be there in time for the Japanese power rankings. We've also got bonus episodes to every single month, beer with breaking. We recorded that earlier this week, which was utter carnage. If you like March Madness, you'll like what we've got planned for beer breaking in March. If you like March Madness and Ix, this is the episode for you. It's really something and the historic race reviews that we've already spoken about as part of that last topic. If you're not a member of the Discord, you can get involved there. We've had a real pickup on Discord as well as Patreon.

So I think we're not far off. 3,500 people chatting F1 and non-F1 as well. So make sure you get involved, plenty of channels to get involved in. We've already said leaving a five-star review, which I think just leaves us to social media. Now, we do the social medias and we do them well. Arutable. No, we do them very well. I can't say that.

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It includes Facebook. Come on. Big up meta. Clip that. Also, just don't bother with Facebook. Follow us everywhere else. Yeah, honestly, it's just there. It's fine.

It exists. But we do the other ones properly. And join our Fantasy League as well, F1 Fantasy, over 2,000 people in there. And I'm not, I'm not doing the worst. And that alone is motivation to, to make me do worse by beating me.

I can't wait for Sam to come back midweek, because this is, this gets worse every time. But until then, I've been Ben Hocking. And I've been Harry Ead. And remember, keep breakingly. Podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.