The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Who is the most overrated F1 driver on the 2022 grid?

Episode Date: November 6, 2022

Sam and Ben treat you all to a bonus podcast this week, discussing who they think are the most overrated and underrated F1 drivers. They also chat about the concerns around ticket prices for the upcoming Las Vegas GP, and the potential for Pierre Gasly having a race ban on purpose this season... JOIN our Discord: https://discord.gg/dQJdu2SbAm SUPPORT our Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/latebraking TWEET us @LBraking BUY our merch: https://late-braking-f1-podcast.creator-spring.com/ SUBSCRIBE to our podcast! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Thank you for listening to the late-breaking F-1 podcast. Make sure to tune in for new episodes every Wednesday and Grand Prix Sunday. Hello and a very well welcome to the late-breaking F-1 podcast presented by Sam Sage and me, Ben Hocking. An off-race Sunday podcast for you today. We've got a lot of different topics to talk about nonetheless. Do you know where Harry is? Where is it? He's used, sorry, I've got whirling by my teeth.

He's used the appalling excuse of, it's my mum's birthday. Not my mum, Harry's mum. That would be a really awful excuse. Yeah. I don't say, what are you doing? I've got to see your mum on her birthday. Where are you?

It's Harry's mum's birthday. So happy birthday to mum at Ead. And he's clear that that is fair enough excuse to not be on the show. And you know what? Fine. He'll make it up to a summer. He did host last week, of course.

Ben, he was going to go to a quiz. He did. He earned his time off, I guess. And we're all big fans of Mummerie, so we'll allow that. Lovely lady. We will absolutely allow that. So it's just the two of us, which probably won't mean less chaos. It will probably be more chaos, as is usually the case when there's only two of us on one of these episodes.

We've got so many different topics to talk about that I don't even know if I can run through them all. Just to run through some of my notes, Domenicali, Russell, Alfa Tauri. Gasly, Las Vegas, can you work out what the topics are based on that one word? I don't know. I'll leave that with you. But should we start with, we'll start with overrated and underrated, I guess. Not exactly the game show format that we normally do, but we're going to run through our most overrated and underrated drivers on the grid right now. Is this a massive ploy in order to get clicks?

Yes, it is, quite frankly. It's all about the content. Yeah. We're kidding, of course. Do you want to start positive or negative on this, overrated or under it? I want you to start by playing the theme, son. I don't care if it's not the actual game. Hang on a minute.

Let me get the soundboard working. It won't work. It's in preview mode at the moment. Also, when we discuss topics. The first few times, this is one of the first times where we've probably sat down and we don't know what to talk about for an episode. And now we've got six topics. And it reminded me of that peep show meme that's like six, Benjiving.

Six. That's insane. It is insane. Is it as insane as the soundboard working first time? I've also got to find the overrated, underrated theme. Here we go. It's so tropical. Overrated, underrated, what answers do we give?

Where will they go? Overrated, underrated. What a weak shoes come and see the show? Overrated underrated? Ah, see, not the right game. Well, kind of, but still just good to get a theme tune in there. Whilst we're here, I just want to nip this in the bud now because we're coming up to awards season

and we're coming up to 2022 late-breaking Hall of Fame announcements and we will, as usual, give one Hall of Famer decision over to the people. Anyone who nominates the soundboard for the Hall of Fame, I'm ignoring you. It's not happening. Never listening again. All right. Do you want to start overrated or underrated?

Which way should we go first? Oh, maybe we should start. on the negative and end on the positive. So let's do overrated first. All right. Three down to one. Who are the most overrated drivers in Formula One right now? So I'm, it's no, no particular order. So don't come from my head, which you will do anyway, give your favourite driver gets mentioned here. I'm going to go in three and it's that massive drop off in form and are the discording are going to kill me? I think Daniel Ricardo is possibly in the top three overrated drivers on the grid right now. I'm not saying he can't bring it back.

I'm not saying he hasn't got the ability to turn it around, but the form he's displayed for the last 24 months does not warrant the level of which it... Ian, get out of the way of the mic! Move! Sorry. She wants to join the Worley Revolution company. Most underrated podcast guest, Ian, the female cat.

Dalia Ricardo, he's... He had that one properly good race, obviously, at Monza, which I would argue is situational, got very lucky with what was going on. around him. That's not a bad thing that you've taken advantage of the luck. But, you know, McLaren didn't let your fight. Norris was there backing you up right behind you. I feel like it, it blushes your graces or whatever the expression is. Make you look better than you are on that statistic. And you haven't proved yourself.

And the fact that not a single team are interested in picking you up now says a lot, you know, you were Daniel Ricardo. It used to be lit, the Stanford send. It used to get so excited to watch Danny Rick drive around any race track. And now I'm like, oh, how bad is it going to be this race weekend. What do you feel better? Is he on your list? Spoiler, he's not on my list. And I thought this was a really difficult one because I think a lot of people do want him to perform better than he is right now. And that one somewhat becomes expect, which would perhaps lean towards overrated as you've done. I think it's probably dependent on where you put this McLaren stint at, right. If you think he can move teams and get back to the level that he was with with Renho,

then he's probably underrated based on his current performance. And we'd all turn around within a few races and go, oh yeah, he's still a good driver. But if you think that's kind of gone or at least partially gone, then you'd probably go the other way with this. It's a tough one. Ricardo was probably the toughest one of judge. Yeah. And that's why he's kind of three on my list. Because they're on my list here, folks, just because of a disclaimer, that's something I think they're bad. That doesn't mean I don't think they should be in F1. It doesn't mean they're moving in the bottom half of drivers in F1. And I think that'll be proven evident by the next couple of games on my list.

And we're going to go a bit controversial here. Driving number two on my list, Carlos Sainz, still one of the best drivers in Formula One. But when you compare him to Charlotte Clare, where you compare the points, difference between them, he came in so strong at Ferrari. But this season, I think, has seen such a surprising drop-off. And a lot of the issues have been his own, especially in the earlier part of the season. I'd be a little bit disappointed, a little bit underwhelmed. And I do think that people, because of the Carlando relationship and how he wasn't McLaren and the fact that the Clare got quite unlucky last season and Sykes didn't get unlucky last season at Ferrari, I think it made Sykes look a lot more positive than he is.

He's still a fantastic racing driver still deserves to be, you know, very much in Formula One and in a great seat in driving well. But I think he's getting a lot of praise from the general public that maybe, you know, if you were to stick maybe a different road driver in that Ferrari seat, I think they'd be a lot closer to LeCler. Ben, you got any thoughts on science at the moment? Yeah, he's not on my list for overrated or underrated. It's a tough one. If this was a year ago, he probably would have been number one on my overrated list. Because I agree with what you say in terms of last year,

LeCler had a lot of bad luck and, you know, signs beat him literally just. But this year, I'm not so sure because he has had some of the bad luck has almost come back to him this year. He's had a lot of DNFs. What doesn't look great for him is if he finishes P6, where he is right now in the championship, and Leclair finishes second. Now, he's not, LeCler's not second at the moment, but he is well within a shot of doing so. If LeClair ends up as the closest challenger to Max Verstappen, even if it's not that close of a challenge, and Sines is P6. Oh yeah, yeah, thrilling last few races. And if Sines finishes P6, that's not a good look to have those four positions, three positions between them.

Yeah, I haven't got him overrated, but can understand the argument. Well, here comes the controversial one. In number one, sorry, everyone. The most overrated driver currently, and again, I need to phrase it, it doesn't mean they're bad. It doesn't mean they don't deserve to be Formula One. It doesn't mean they couldn't go on to be a world champion. But right now, with the season they've had,

and I think this is going to shock a lot of people, actually. I think there's a lot of extenuating circumstances around it. George Russell is the most overrated. Oh, Jesus, man. I knew it would upset him. I knew it would upset him. Simply because I feel like, firstly, I'm actually going to get into this.

I'm not going to too much detail right now, but the guy needs to clean up his act. Simply isn't good enough in terms of on-track battling. First season properly up front with cars that can sit around him for a long time. He's proven that he doesn't really have the cost. constant consistency to fight. He's great when he's on his own.

You leave him on his own, he will do a good job. And I think he's getting better at dictating the team as well. But I think if you were to give Hamilton and Russell the same strange controversial setups and parts that are being developed at the start of the season, Hamilton would be far ahead of Russell. And I think you look at the form and the pace difference between Hamilton and Russell since the summer break where that has all been equalized. Hamilton has proven that there is still a bit of more of a domination on his side.

In comparison, I think he's really outperformed Russell. and I do think the first half of the season and the points he was able to pick up because of that, massively skew people's points of view as to just how good George Russell was. He's still very, very good. He's still one of the futures of Formula One. Again, don't let this mean that I don't think he could go on to be a multiple world champion. I just don't think this season actually, when you dig into the detail, he's living up to what people have expected of him previously.

I mean, if you couldn't guess by my initial reaction on that, he's not on my overrated. list. Your wins and favours there? Oh, no, I can't, I can't subscribe to that one. Can't subscribe to that one. And look, if the measure of being overrated is being a little bit worse than Lewis Hamilton, fine. But it's Lewis Hamilton.

I think they weren't in any particular order, to be fair. But I just wanted to save George the last for attention. Okay. My three most overrated on the grid, as you would have, if you were paying attention, there are no duplicates across both myself and Mr. Sage on this. So who am I going for first? Third, I've got Joe Guan Yu at third. Now, in fairness, and I've made this point a lot of times on the podcast previously.

He's outperformed what I thought he was going to do at the beginning of the year. he's doing better than his points tally suggests, but the points tally is he isn't losing by a little bit. He's losing by 41 points, which isn't great when the guy you're losing two has only got 47, meaning Joe has six. It's a fair gap between the two of them. And a lot of people are saying that he is vastly outperformed

anything that anyone expected. And whilst I would go some of the way there, I wouldn't say he's vastly outperformed what people think. think he was capable of. It kind of speaks volumes as to how little expectation was for him at the beginning of the year. But I think people just need to calm down a little bit. He's done enough to deserve a second season, wouldn't deny that. And again, the point, Stanley, doesn't quite reflect what a good second half of the year he's had. But I think people were taking it perhaps one or two steps too far. I think that's an interesting one. And I think the reason why I would disagree with

it is you raised it in your own argument. I thought, it sounds horrible. I thought so lowly of Joaquin Yu. I really thought he was going to be a Nicholas Latifi-esque racing driver. On Nikita Mazepin-esque racing driver where they would come up. They were constantly behind their teammate by, you know, half a lap to a lap regularly. And it's okay for him to have proven me run on that. And that's why I just don't think he's overrated.

I think that he's come up and he's been a good midfield driver. I think he's saying a better job, for example, than the likes of life of life. Strull, comfortably in his first cut of the seasons, good. And that for me makes him go, yeah, I think you're all right. You're doing way better than I thought. So for me, he couldn't be overrated, but I can see where you're coming from. Second one on my list. I thought this one might appear on your list, Sam. I have three written down. And of the three, I thought this one might be the duplicate answer, but apparently not. I think also looking at one of the younger drivers on the grid. I'm going with Mick Schumacher at second.

Do you know what's really bad? I forgot he existed. That's, sorry, Mick. That might say a lot. I mean, I forgot half-s-existing. I was running through my mind, actually, because K-Mag also didn't appear. But yeah, sorry, Mick. You would have been on the list. Not going to know. I think Mick Schumacher had the opportunity. I know he doesn't have the overall experience edge on Kevin Magnuson, but given Kevin Magnuson's year out of Formula One, I think Mick Schumacher had the opportunity early doors to really say, okay, welcome back to the team. You can be a great asset to this team this year, but I'm going to lead the team. Like, this is my team now. And the opposite happened. Kevin Magnuson comes back

with 12 points in his first two races, Mick Schumacher struggles, and obviously Hasse haven't quite been as good throughout the rest of the year compared to those first two races. But it just, it just hasn't quite happened for him. And there have been a few signs where there might be something there. If you look, you remember back to Austria, for example, Hasse were pretty competitive there and at Silverstone when they were sort of back to back races. Yeah. So you remember, Schumacher's anger after the sprint race where there was a real disagreement like team orders wise. and you could, everyone was saying, including myself, you could see Michael Schumacher in his eyes.

And I thought, okay, this is the turning point. Like this is where this is the springboard and it wasn't. And so, you know, X Formula 2 champion, two years in the sport, will he get a third? That remains to be seen. But I don't know, we've all talked about the one and a half season jump that Schumacher seems to make in every series. he competes in.

Unless that's coming a bit later on in F1 compared to the other series, it's not happened yet. I'm going to give one argument against a while an argument for Mick Schumacher. The argument for him is that that harscar is not allowing him

to really, I know obviously they had the first couple of races where Kama did well. And you always allow the first couple of races for adjustment, for growth, for development. And I think that's fine. I can almost sit there and go if we're on race five of the season, came back, I scored and Mick had it. I go, okay, now's the time. If the Haas continues to perform where it's expected, I would want to see it, but it didn't. So I kind of

understand that argument that people are making. A performance is such a Silverstone and Oscar, I do think demonstrating a real fire that he had. And it was exciting to watch him do it. But the... Go on. So I was going to say the adjustment argument, I think, is fair. But I think it applies just as much to Magnuson, if not more to him based on the year off. No, that's very, very true. Kameg had that time away, whereas Mick was obviously still learning the car, learning the team, developing everything that you needed. And this is the argument that annoys me from Mick Schumacher when people go, the harsh car was so bad last year that this is now his rookie year.

No, it's not. That's not how it works in a, you know, a month of Sundays in Formula One. This is not his rookie year. This is his second season in Formula One. And he is underperforming hugely to the point where if he was anyone but a Schumacher, he'd be out of the sport. He wouldn't even be deliberated for this House seat anymore. he would be out of a drive.

So I think it's a really good pick and I'm annoyed that I forgot about it. Also, by the rookie season logic, this is Russell's rookie season, I guess, right? Right, yeah. Doesn't quite work. It's my rookie season at a podcast. Yeah, let's say that.

Yeah, there was no chance for you to succeed. And here's one, folks, at number one. Sam went controversial with Russell. I might top that. So my most overrated driver on the grid, we joked before we started the podcast. Wouldn't it be funny if I said Alonzo? No, you're not actually going to. No. Fernando Alonzo is the most overrated driver on the grid right now. He's not, he's not Hamilton Vastappan level anymore. He's not. He's in the tier below that, which is fine based on his age. He's in his 40s now.

But people who seem to think, I've seen the argument that if Fernando Alonzo was in a Ferrari this year instead of LeClauro signs, he'd still be in the championship fight. That is utterly bonkers. Fernando Alonzo is great. He's had a lot of bad luck this season. But compared to Westerban Ockon over the last two years,

has there been that much between them? Like, I mean, he's probably been the better driver over the last two years, but it's marginal. It's not by a huge amount. So I just think people need to slow down on where Alonzo is right now. Alonzo has been exceptional his entire career. And, you know, he had a very good case for a number of years to say he was the best driver in F1. Wouldn't deny that.

But where he is now versus those elite drivers, I just think he's one step behind. Oh, I'm so annoyed that Harry Ede is not on this episode as the head of the Fernando Oloxo fan club. It's the only reason I was able to say it. He's editing this, folks. He's kindly said that he was going to hang this episode. He's going to probably put something in here. He used to be like, Ben, you're a moron and I hate you.

I'm coming for you next episode. Hello, everyone. Sorry to interrupt your podcast listening, but I couldn't. I sat here editing this bloody stupid podcast. Benjamin Hocking, give you a head a wobble. Fernando Alon's on the most overrated driver on the grid. You an idiot. Actual idiot.

I'm not coming back. it. Bloody hell. Why do I do this? Stupid podcast. Anyway, I thought I could not, I was incensed. I could not say

that Ben, I couldn't not say that Ben was not a moron because he's a moron. So, suck it, Ben. You're an idiot. I'm quite shocked at that. Because I think,

yes, there are a few, maybe newer fans in Formula One that have picked up on the Fernando Locke so hype that maybe have gone,

oh, he'd still be up for it. yeah okay yes it's a bit advantageous but i do think the majority of the audience the the f1 community are aware that fando for who he is and what he has achieved and where he's in his career now is still going above and beyond expectations for someone in his age range you know he's you know he's into his 40s and the guy i agree with that right so that's that's where i wouldn't plug it on my list i'm not saying he'd be the very bottom of the overrated list i'm not saying you know if i had to put first down to 20 of overrated drivers he'd be in the top

or the top 10. You know, I don't know. But I think that's, that is controversial. I think you might have just blessed my Russell judgment there with that one. So thanks for skiing the limelight. Yeah. No worries. You can see the quote retweets building up already.

We'll take a short break so you can recover from that and we'll get on to underrated next. Hack the holidays with the PC holiday insiders report. Try this PC porquetta. Crackling, craveworthy. You're going to eat there? Who are you? I'm the voice for the next ad, car commercial, but I noticed that show-stopping roast and- Help yourself.

Mmm, designed for indulgence, precision crafted to navigate every corner of my mouth, all for just $18. Okay, okay. Try the season's hottest flavors from the PC Holiday Insiders Report. Please feast responsibly. All right, three under-a-driver, Sam, if you got here? I just want to say, you sound so West Country where you did that break. You went. We're not really a break.

And we'll go back to underrated. You did. You said it really corgish. The problem is, like, I don't have much of an accent 95% of the time. And then occasionally there'll just be a minor slip. But because it's only, because it's not that frequent, it sticks out like a sore thumb, then it? Yeah.

It's like we've walked into a lovely gin club in London. Someone's just throwing a bloody pasty through the window. And that's things random, corgish, you know, input. Just bloody pasty? bloody steak come through the window anyway if you didn't have a steak

past you folks we recall we'll treat yourself anyway we're going underrated and I'm going to kick this one off with Mr Alexander

Albon because I think after his demise at Red Bull after the downfall after you know people in this is going to sound like

a weird phrase but our generation of Formula 1 you know that are growing up with it for the last 20 years we looked at that and when

you've come and gone You picked too soon. It's not happening for you. You're out of the sport. See you later. And then we saw a turnaround that is not very common in Formula One. It hasn't been for the last 15, 200 years, where a driver took a year out, had such low stock,

and has come back into a team at the very back of the grid, and it's continuing to wow people. And I don't think people recognize it race after race, just how strong Alex Albon is, and how well he's performing at the back of the grid. Because he's at the back of the grid. I mean, at the times he's randomly in a point-scoring position in Matt Williams is baffling.

the only reason why I wouldn't put him at the very top of the underrated list is because currently he's up against Latifi, who much like with Russell, I don't think he's really a great comparison point. I think it's quite easy to look good next to Latifi, but still, he is, he's blown me away this season. I think he's outperformed himself massively and I'm really, really pleased to see him take that step on. It's a fair one. I think in years to come, people will look at the championship standings from this year, and they'll see Albin on, what, four points and Latifie on two. And it won't look like much, but it is. It is.

Yeah, big time. Okay, second on the list. Ben, you've already mentioned actually this person on the list, but not as one of your choices previously. It's a comparison. And that is Esquamang Okon. He, I'm not saying he's an absolute hero of Formula One. I'm not saying he should, you know, get the Mercedes seat

when it becomes available. But from being someone who was tarnished with a reputation of, you know, taking their teammate off, you know, being a bit argumentative. He took a year out of the sport, much like our one, remember. he's come back and he's gone to toe with Fernando Alonkso two seasons in a row we all kind of laughed

or he got the contract extension that meant that he was going to be in Formula One until mankind literally destroyed itself in the year 30,000, 24 and he's performing better than I thought he ever would. The Alpine looks good and he looks even better and I'm quite excited for Alpine next season

if they get Ocon now in the kind of the scope that he's going in and Pierre Gazley with the way that he performed last season, they could be quite a potent and surprising lineup. And Ockong has done well, I think. I think I'm really quite pleased to see the development that he's had. I thought he capped.

But this season, you show me that he's still got more to prove. I do agree with you. He's not on my list, but he was probably fourth, if we were going down to four. I think that's right. My opinion on the contract situation hasn't actually changed, even though he has proven himself over the last couple of years. think if you've got door number one as Ocon and Ghazli and you've got door number two as

Alonzo and Piastri, I'm going through door number two still. So my opinion on the contract hasn't really changed, but certainly he's been more of a match than I thought he would be for Alonzo. Yeah. Do you think those doors would be like Takeshi's Castle where you run into one? It would just be a hard wall. You bounce off it. Honestly, that game, knock, knock on Takeshi's Castle is the best game on that show. The show itself is just goaded, as the kids would say, right? 10 out of 10. Goodness me, nice.

Watching people run full pelt into doors that aren't actually doors, it's just a great entertainment. It's great banter, isn't it? The tour's got always open. Do you know who used to do part of the voiceover for Kesheg's Castle? No. Yes. The answer is yes, but.

It's Craig Charles. Anyway, one of my favorite voiceovers, folks, I have the niche British reference. If you watch Robot Wars, oh, good old Craig Charles. Anyway, the final underrated driver. And I can't believe this person is ever featured in a underrated list after what they've achieved. But Sebastian Vessel is by far one of the most underrated drivers on the grid

in the current day and age. Obviously, if you were to say at the start of the 2013 season, who's the most underrated driver on the grid? If someone said, Sebastian Vessel, you'd laugh in their face. You'd be like, you clearly have never watched Formula One, you just know one name. But in 2022, with the issues at Ferrari, people were speaking about how he's done, his career's over, it's not one of the greatest of all time, despite what's sitting third on the most wings of all time list, and the podiums he's a mask, and the way he's developed teams, the end of this season run that he's had,

shows that he's still got that hunger, that fire. And I think if you were to come back in a team that are a bit more positive and further up the field, you could probably still deliver very, very well. So basketball is still an absolute legend of the sport and I don't think people treat him as such. So for me, Seby Vet, one of the most underrated drivers on the grid. Hmm. Yeah, fair enough.

If you made that comment a year ago, I mean, he probably would have been number one overrated on the list a year ago, to be honest, because... Oof, swings aroundabouts. Yeah, that's the way of it. I mean, I agree with you. Like, this second half of this year, I said it on a recent episode.

I think it's been his best run of form, since mid-2019. Like, 2020 was dire. And 2021, I don't think, was that much better. But, yeah, it seems ever since he's announced his retirement, suddenly he's gained an extra year. So fair play to him. No duplicates again.

No duplicates. Oh, look at us go. Number three on my list. Now, you said with Vettel, you said with Vettel that people are going to say, how could he be underrated? This applies 10 times that amount on this one. Max Verstappen is third on my list because I still don't think he gets the respect for how good he is.

Like he is, for me, he is the best driver on the grid right now and he's created a bit of a gap between him itself and rest. The points would indicate that obviously, but the car does help. But even so, I don't think people will, it's the same with Hamilton in any current grey. I don't think people will fully appreciate how good they are until they're gone or until they're not able to perform at the same level like with Hamilton, with the Merck not being at the same level this year. I don't know. People will look back at this year in five years' time and go, oh, okay, no, he was good.

He was very good, very good at the F-1. So even though he does get a lot of respect already, still probably not quite enough in my book. I think the staff was probably top five on my list. I think it's a very, very, very sensible call. Well done, Ben. Thank you. Second, I'm going for Pierre Gasley, because I think people have forgotten how good the last two years were.

Like 2020 and 2021, and actually you could even argue the last part of 2019 after he was dropped from Red Bull. He was exceptional for those two and a half years, and this has probably been the toughest year he's had since he was dropped from Red Bull. And I think that's causing people to think, oh, okay, he's not that good.

He's probably on the same level of Sonoda. I don't know whether Alpine, that switch is going to awaken the old Pierre Gasly again. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But I think it's got a good chance of doing so. And people will remember why, particularly in 2020, you know, if you're looking at best drivers of 2020, most people would have said Hamilton, Vestappen,

Ricardo, Perez, Leclair, Gasly. It was those six names in discussion. So he was amongst that group. I think he was third for me that year. He might well have been, yeah. He was certainly in the discussion for third. So I think he's underrated just based on

it's been a bit of a throwaway season for him. No, I think very successful. Obviously, friend of the podcast met him another day. Nice chap. He's signing old, he's signing LB CAC as well. maybe in 20 years time will give that a way as a limited edition

Hall of Famer Yuki Senoda Pierre Ghazly Cap but yeah, love a chap, deserves all the praise I just don't think he's underrated and I think people still remember last year and how good he was and I'm really excited to see him

in a team that is not part of the Red Bull family Number one, I need to activate my Brit bias but not in the direction of George Russell on this one. I think the most underrated driver on the grid right now is Lando Norris And I appreciate the argument that he's only come up against a out of sorts Ricardo over the last couple of years.

But he was competitive with signs before that. I still think he's doing a remarkable job this year. The fact that McLaren are in the fight for P4 and the championship is on his shoulders and really only his shoulders. I just think at the moment he doesn't have the car, even compared to Mercedes, he doesn't have the car to reflect his talent. in the same way that Vastappen and Hamilton and LeCler do. And I think as soon as, presuming it happens, as soon as he gets that opportunity, he will prove what a talent he really is. I think he's possibly the most naturally gifted driver on the grid outside of Vastappan and

Hamilton, I would suggest, maybe level with Lecler and Alonzo is probably in there as well as naturally gifted. but I mean, yeah, I think even though he is pretty well rated at the moment, I'd still have him as underrated. I think if you, and we've heard the news come out recently that Christian Horner has had multiple conversations with Norris over the last couple of years about come to the team, come to the team. And imagine a partnership of the Stauffin and Norris together.

It would be almost like early day singer and cross. Yeah, they're done, right? They're done. Yeah, no, I think you're right when you say about the naturally gifted. I think if you were to take Hamilton Oloxo out of the, you know, the conversation is kind of, you know, they're on their way out of their careers, we're in the new stage.

If you were to put Verstappen, Norris, Lecler, Russell, all into very, very similar bits of machinery for a whole season. I think the only person that Norris struggles against is Verstappen. I do think he has the ability to either challenge or will only come second to Verstappen. The guy knows what he's doing in a race car. But I feel of it's sorry for Danny Ricardo, because it's a bit like Sergio Perez, right?

Ricardo is on his way down, yes, but it's made to look so much worse by Landon Norris being so far on his way up. It's like Coca-Cola stock, always inclining in that performance. Crazy how good he's been. You make the point, if you compare Perez and Ricardo, this is a bit off topic, but it's just got me thinking. Think of the end of the 2020 season. Perez and Ricardo, Perez for Racing Point, Ricardo for Renault, they both had broad. brilliant 2020 seasons. Again, they were both in the conversation

for top three drivers on the grid that year. Who would have thought the career paths would have gone the way that they have? Because it looked like, if you think probably this time, two years ago, Perez possibly doesn't have a seat on the 2021 grid and might be out of the sport. Ricardo is an upgrade to McLaren

who might well be fighting a bit further up in the championship. Who would have thought that actually, the way that it would have turned out is that Perez is Vestappan's teammate, winning races, second in the championship, and Ricardo might be without a seat next year because McLaren's gone awfully for him. It's just, who would have predicted it? Yeah, the wings of time in Formula One, right? You never know in what direction they'll blow. And Perez has done a brilliant job in maximising, I think, his end of career value massively. He's, he's... Rebel have done well to exploit his positives, and he's delivered where he's needed to deliver.

He's not being exceptional, but he's done everything he needed to do. All right. Coming up next topic, we're going to be discussing the Las Vegas launch event and a bit about the pricing of tickets. It's not cheap. At Desjardin, we speak business. We speak startup funding and comprehensive game plans. We've mastered made-to-measure growth and expansion advice,

and we can talk your ear off about transferring your business when the time comes. Because at Desjardin business, we speak the same language you do. Business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us. And contact Desjardin today. We'd love to talk, business. So as much as this might surprise everyone, we weren't invited to the launch event in Las Vegas. I'd be sick.

Assume the invites got lost in the post. A lot of postal strikes here in the UK at the moment. I don't know, but we weren't there. Regardless, it still went ahead. They waited as long as they could, but we didn't show up. It got us thinking because the tickets have also gone on sale, and I believe we're looking at a cheapest ticket of around £440,500 US dollars, for general admission, standing tickets.

If you want to sit anywhere, it's probably three times that amount looking about $1,500. And that goes far beyond that as well. I know there are tickets nearly 10 grand, 10 grand on the point. But do you think that F1 has a problem here in terms of pricing out regular? Regular is not the right word, but fans who aren't super rich. Well, yeah, like you all remember that every sport has your normal fan base and they will make up 90 to 95% of your entire fan base worldwide, whether that be, you know, football, American football, Formula One, any sport, the majority of viewers that bring in your day-to-day revenue that, you know,

sponsorships paid to be in front of on the telly, on adverts or anything like that, are people like your eye being, are people that just watch the telly and enjoy watching Formula One. So when you hear that a general admission ticket that doesn't get you a seat, and remember, it's got like a nice hilled area like spa might be where you can sit down on the grass and watch Formula One, this is Las Vegas, so you're going to be standing in a concrete jungle. cost your 500 smackeroonies and you don't get a drink for that. You don't get any food for that. All you get is to walk in the door.

No guarantee that you get anything else. That's so much money. And that's just for your ticket. If you don't live in the Nevada, maybe California area, you've got to travel on a long way to get there as well. America, if you haven't realized, it's quite a large place. It's a great point. Thank you.

Yep, just because you weren't aware. American fans, as brilliant as they are, and thank you all for listening, I don't make up the majority of worldwide fans of Formula One. So you assume that European fans, Asian fans, South American fans, you know, from Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, who are big parts of Formula One culture will want to travel to this race. So that includes hotel costs.

That includes flights, return flights, food, drink. It ends up not just being a 500-pound ticket. And remember, the cheapest ticket, 500 pounds. It ends up being, that's your, over your yearly holiday. I spend less than that on my once a year, nice holiday that I go on to treat myself to get away from everything. And that's just the ticket price. It's excruciatingly expensive. And we've heard it.

It's not just at Vegas. We've heard it in other venues as well. With Silverstone, for example, they employed, I think for the first time in Formula One, the adaptive pricing. That when demand got higher, pricing got higher. And it ended up being an extortionate amount of money for a single ticket just from general admission. Formula One is having a problem where normal access to these events is pricing out your day-to-day fans. And people keep paying it because they want to experience it. They love it.

They want to go to it. But when you see a Sky F1 subscription for TV costs you over £200 a year here in the UK. And yet, you know, that's one ticket to get there could cost me over 600 quid. It's a lot of money. Too much money for your average day-to-day person that just wants to enjoy a bit of sport. Love to see the drivers go around the track, see a bit of racing. We're not all millionaires here, as much as people might like to think of this podcast, rolls in money overnight.

We're not all rolling in dough. It's too expensive and it's unfair on the day to say person and what the sport is driven on, I think. What do you think, Ben? I think the worst thing is, is how unsurprising it is because it's not new. I mean, we saw the same thing with Miami this year. And these extortionate prices have come along for Las Vegas. And no one's looking at them like, wow, didn't see this coming.

Jesus, that's a lot. Because it is a lot, but no one's surprised by the fact that it is. Everyone was fully, everyone's fully aware that this is the way that Formula One is going about these events, which is quite saddening, to be honest. And look, I mean, it's all, it's all baked in a good thing, I guess, which is demand for F1 is high, which at its core is a good thing. But ultimately, without increasing the capacity at the venues, without increasing the number of races on the calendar, which we've already discussed at great length, you don't want to go too high on them.

F1 are left with a choice. They know they can fulfill the ticket amounts. They know that they can sell out all of these venues across the world. And their choice is, do they do so at a cheaper price or a more expensive price? And of course, they're going for more expensive pricing because shareholders are probably quite happy with that. And teams are quite happy with that in terms of the dividends they get. I know F1 have posted their quarterly earnings and it's 7% up on last year and is pretty comparable

with where it was last quarter. So I can understand why they do it. It doesn't make it right, but I understand why they're doing it. And again, there's little surprise about it because it completely follows what they're doing from like a TV point of view as well. Like they will put everything behind a paywall. Pretty much everywhere in the world now. There's a few exceptions, but barely anywhere is there free-to-air Formula One nowadays.

It's Sky Sports here in the UK, but it's the same in pretty much every other country as well. Weirdly, I think America have what, ESPN? I don't know if it's all races, but definitely some races are free-to-wear, which is surprising. I guess it increases the attention that they get there, which is good. Yeah, I think all of the F-1 races take place on ESPN or ESPN2 or maybe ABC, I'm not sure. but yeah and the problem is I think at its core this is a term that is used a lot they want all of these events to be Super Bowls right

they want these to be landmark Super Bowl events like in all the cities that they go to including Las Vegas but also others the problem is from a sporting point of view it doesn't really make any sense to make that comparison I get it from an entertainment point of view if with the American football season just to use the Super Bowl analogy, you have a regular season. You have a regular season which,

okay, might not be cheap, but you can get to a regular season game a lot cheaper than you can to a Super Bowl. So if you just have exclusively Super Bowl events all over the world, you are going to be pricing out regular fans who can't afford this sort of thing. I think accessibility across the board is really important for Formula One. And I think they need to make as much effort as they possibly can to make sure that it stays accessible because, hey, look, F1's growing in America, but it's not at the size of NASCAR. And quite frankly, it never will be if it doesn't embrace accessibility. It will continue to grow.

I've got no doubt about that in the US. But NASCAR does a better job of being more accessible, quite frankly. And I don't know, it looks like F1 maybe intentionally isn't going down that route. F1 does love to have the We're better than you mentality doesn't it with its branding, the luxury, the prestige and they know that and they play up to that and not saying that's necessarily a bad idea

to play up to that USP is something they have over all other racing series but when your average viewer is not part of that luxury or prestige we don't all drive around in Ferraris and living mansions you're going to annoy some people and races like NASCAR which do a brilliant job at jumping on viral moments as we saw with a fantastic wall riding moment

going into the playoffs recently, which has gone bigger than most events that have happened in Formula One across social media. You don't always need to have a lot of money to make it big in the world of entertainment, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I would agree with that. It's a tough one. And I don't want to see people priced out.

I just don't think it makes it make. any sense. In terms of like the accessibility discussion, it links in with all of the initiatives that are being put in place to promote more diversity in Formula One. If you keep Formula One as at its core an inaccessible sport, what do you expect? If you open up tickets to people that only to only people that can afford a large amount, those are where your fans are going to be. those are where the people coming through, the carting's going to be, and you're going to continue, you're going to continue F1 being a playground for Ridge Boys. Let's put it bluntly.

That's what it is. And you're not going to change that without, the two don't seem linked at first glance, but they definitely are in terms of the attraction and the interest of the sport. I think you raise a really good point there. The people, you know, the likes of Lewis Hamilton are trying to raise awareness for those who come from you know, under, under privileged backgrounds, those that haven't got the social reinforcement that they deserve, the opportunities that they need to be able to show off skills

and abilities that they might have, they might dream of, you know, I want to be the next Lewis Hamilton, a young woman, a young man, you know, a minority in a nation who goes, I love racing. No one else I know loves racing. I can't afford to get into it. They'll never be able to achieve that dream or even noticing anything

because they can't even watch the race, let alone get into the sport. themselves. And it's sad and it's upsetting. And on the other side of things, when you do go to a racetrack, when you do it to watch Formula One, is the experience actually 500 pounds of value? You see cars go around one corner. A lot of the time, there isn't a big screen for you to see the action. I know so many people that come home from race days going a bit confused about what happened, have to go and watch the race on the telly now, just so I know what the actual story of the race is. And you hear stories of had to walk around in blistering heat for ages.

Monger-R-R-Prey, Harry was there, couldn't get water coupon. You can't drink water. For 500 quiller pop, you're expecting. I would expect a luxury weekend out. Not, I can't eat, I can't drink, I haven't seen half the race. You know, that's not really good enough the amount of money you're spending. Absolutely. Should we switch gears to Pierre Gasley?

Because one discussion point that's come up, good old Pete Gazzley in the last few races. He's picked up quite a few penalty points. He's now on 10. For those of you that are unaware, 12 leads to a race ban. And points are added and taken away over the course of a one year sort of program. So if you were to pick up a two point penalty last November, that will disappear as of this November. So it's a bit of a rolling thing, this super license points system.

So he's got 10 and 12 leads to a race ban. And as far as I'm aware, he will stay on 10 at the very least until May of next year. I think the Spanish Grand Prix is the next two points to go away, essentially. Which leads to us to a bit of a question. This probably wouldn't be a discussion point if he was staying at the same team, but we know he's going to Alpine next year. Is there a case, Sam, for him to intentionally get a penalty point, to get two penalty points at Brazil,

take the ban at Abu Dhabi, leaving him for a fresh start in Australian, in Bahrain next year for LPN. What do you think? I mean, the initial question, I think, is quite audacious. It's quite, you know, we're asking a racing driver,

someone who's driving a machine around at 200 miles an hour to go out and do something dangerous in order to, you know, create positivity. for the rest of their career, or the start of their career at Alpine. And on the face of it, I would have to say,

no, you should just be a cleaner driver, you shouldn't be picking up penalty points. What a ridiculous thing to say. But there are ways, I think, to pick up penalty points that don't require you to essentially drive straight into another car, right? I think doing a practice start

out from outside the pit lane, things like that. You know, those that infractions can pick up penalty points where you create a sense of danger or an unsafe environment, that is actually, it's okay, you could get away with it if you're a clever person. Speeding under safety car, for example, that kind of thing, can pick up safety points. Now, if Pierre Gasly can go about picking up those two points without causing any issue to a single other driver on the grid,

I actually think it's a very sensible idea. I think it allows him to go away from his duties early. I think it allows him to have an extended winter period to rest up, to then maybe move over to Alping earlier, start getting to know everyone. It makes a lot of sense. And also then you're going to that new season, of course. What happens if we get to the second race of the season? Al Pian developed a car that's a race-winning car.

And he goes, I had a crash in Saudi Arabia. I can't race in Australia now. And someone's got to step in. Does a good job. Doesn't look great on Gasly. And also, what if he lost a race win because of that? I know it's hypothetical.

I know it's unlikely. But there's every chance if he were to just not appear for one race in a championship contending season, that could be the difference in him winging a driver's title or not winning a driver's title. So, yeah, in Brazil, if in a practice session or in a qualifying session, he could do something that gathers those two extra points in a harmless way to everyone but himself. And when I say harmless but to himself, I mean, don't put yourself in harm's way, Pierre. Please, Pete. Yeah, I actually don't see a problem with it.

I think going to do it. I think stick a youngster in Alfa Tauri for the final race of the season. No harm, no foul. They'll get a chance at a race. It'll probably be Nick DeVries despite him not needing it. But why not? Why not? I'm all for it.

Ben, what do you think? Yeah, it's a tough one because there are a number of factors that do lead you to think that this is a good idea. Firstly, the fact that it is until May that the next points come off the board. Like if he had had two points go on this year at Bahrain or Australia or Saudi Arabia very early in the year, you might say, don't bother, just don't have an incident at the first race. or the second race of next year and you'll be fine and you've got a bit of leeway. But the fact that it doesn't come in until May means he's got to be squeaky clean for a number of races at the early point of next year if he doesn't go and take this ban

this side of this year. I think the problem is he's on 10 and not 11. If he was on 11, it would be really simple. So one point that he's picked up this year, I believe, might have been Austria, but I can't quite remember was because he exceeded track limits too many times and he picked up a point because of that. Now, if that, if he was on 11 and only needed one more, I would absolutely say in Brazil, just, just exceed track limits a couple of times, get the point and then take Abu Dhabi off because you're not endangering anyone whatsoever. And I agree with you, Sam, if you can find a safe way to

do it, I don't have too much of a problem. It does feel like it's cheating the system and we'll get onto whether the system is right in a moment. But, you know, if it's there to be exploited and no one's in harm's way, then, okay, go ahead and do it. If the system isn't right, that's not on you, that it's not right. The fact that it's two points that he needs to pick up means that he needs to be really careful about what he can do in order to pick up them. So, whereas I would say, you know, exceeding track limits one too many times, that is really good. no endangerment whatsoever. But is speeding under a safety car endangerment?

Yes. Is crashing with someone endangerment? Of course it is. So he'd need to find a safe way to do this. Because also as well, if he was doing this by means of something that is dangerous, that doesn't look good long term. You know, Alpine might work out and all be great. But if Pierre Ghazli is looking for another team in a couple of years,

I don't think this is completely eradicated this sort of behaviour. So I don't know. I would explore your options. I think it makes sense for Alpha Tauri to just, you know, get someone else in the car for the last race anyway. So if you can do it in a safe way,

I don't have a problem with it. Just cut every corner on the trap, mate. Just don't do the corners. Alonzo does that every week. just to do the same thing. Yeah. He doesn't get any penalty points for that, so that might not work.

But yeah, just straight line the whole of Brazil and we'll see you in Bahrain next season. I don't think the system's right. Do you? How would you adapt it? I don't know. It's just the whole system was brought in

as a result of Grosjean's crash at Belgium back in 2012. So it was 10 years old now. A long time ago. Yeah. And they gave him a, you remember he gave him a race ban. They gave him a race ban because of his crash with First Corner of Spire, wasn't it?

Yes, yeah. And he'd also had a couple of crashes leading up to that, which kind of made the stewards go, okay, he deserves a race ban. But there wasn't really any system behind it. So they've put this in place to try and to try and make it a safer sport. Does anyone really believe that Gassley is a danger on the track? I know he's had a few incidents and they have been a bit clumsy and they should be addressed. But I'm not quite sure a race ban.

It's not like Gasley's a menace. I don't know what this actually does. I feel like they need to employ more of a footballing system here of like a two yellows and a red type process. And only certain levels of infringements should classify as a yellow car. For example, if you cause a collision on a racetrack that is. is a five second plus penalty. That's a yellow card. You do that two races in a row.

Red card, you're off for the next race. I also think that then encourages reserve drivers to have more of an active role within Formula One. For example, let's say, let's say Pierre Gassi did the move that he did in Mexico where he rang,

whoever it was off the track, picked up a penalty, and let's, all right, yellow card. Five second penalty, yellow card. Does it again in Brazil? Yellow card. You're off for Abu Dhabi. Nick DeVries has to step in for you,

do the race. and then that way it would familiarize people with a, well, there's a real punishment for damaging people. You're going to miss a race. And it becomes more normalised and more accepted. I think 12 points is almost excessive. You can have quite a few dangerous incidents in Formula One before you even get to the race ban level.

And we've seen that before. I think actually if you look at Grosjean's crashes that led up to his race ban, if you were to put them in the current process, I'm not sure if he would actually have hit the 12 point mark in today's process to get a race ban for what he did get a race bang for. So, no, Pierre Gazzi is not a danger to society or the racetrack or all the others on it. But I do think there is a process that could be put in place that allows for a more frequent introduction of reserve drivers and it allows a more severe punishment to be put in place

to deter from silly stupid driver moves in the future. Based on current system, just to give some context in this, the Landstrol incident, with Fernando Alonzo in Austin. If he was to do that five times in five different races, that is not worth a ban. That's 10 points. Yeah, that's shocking. I mean, that should tell you everything you need to know.

That was two points for that. And Gasly also had two points for, I don't know, he had a crash at turn one with another driver, which I appreciate is not ideal, but it's also not, there's no malice. I mean, it's not dangerous to an extent, but everything in F1 is dangerous to an extent. A first corner crash where they are fairly common because you put 20 drivers trying to get ahead of each other into a small vacuum of a space, that sort of incident is going to happen.

How can the Landstrol one be worth two points and that be only one sick for the points you need to get a penalty? It just seems mad. Yeah, yeah. A changing system is clearly required. And the fact that we're even having a conversation where we're debating whether a driver, who for the most part, is considered to be a very clean, fair driver. We're going, try and get yourself banned early, mate. Try and get yourself out of a job because, you know, one thing that could be so minor could give him the same level of two points as what Lance Stroll picked up and removed him from an entire race.

It feels unfair. So, yeah, I think you're right to bring up the, not just the fact that he's going to possibly have a race ban, but to reevaluate the system, it clearly has, much like everything with FIA, some real issues at the base level. All right, and we're going to discuss one more topic right after this. Audiences and top critics are celebrating. Rental Family is the perfect feel-good movie of the year. What you need me for?

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So we're now getting on to point four of the six that we broke down to discuss today. Unfortunately, and I can't believe we didn't see this coming. Myself and Sam talk for longer than we think we're going to talk for. Whoops! Wow. major shock. So we'll leave the other two topics, probably to mention on the preview this Wednesday

coming up for the Brazilian Grand Prix. Al-Fa-Tauri. It has been announced by the head of trackside engineering for Al-Fa-Tauri that they will be taking fewer parts from Red Bull in 2023. Do you think this is a significant move in any way in terms of the feeder team system that we've got on the moment?

I'm going to look at this argument in three separate parts because I think it plays into three separate areas of Formula One. There's three. It's a triple model warfare too. Get the camera. Whatever that name is from so long ago. Anyway. No scope, mate.

Yeah. No scope. Yeah, 360. Alfatari, if you don't know, folks, if you need to Formula One are the Figuor. They're owned by Red Bull and you'll notice that junior drivers that sit within that team tend to either move to Red Bull or they get kicked out the system, much like we've talked about already with Pierre Gazley and Alexander Alba.

They were both in that junior programme, as was Max Verstappen, UK-Signo being now the current young prodigy to sit within the team. They say they're going to take less parts from Red Bull. Now, I think this is positive. I think this is good because it essentially differentiates the two teams. And I always found it very confusing that essentially Alphotari will never able to almost just be like a tenth behind Red Bull for every season because you think data would be so easily accessible and you could probably

go through so many loopholes where you go, well, have you tried this wink, wink? And, you know, Al-Tari could be like, oh, we'll give that a go. So I've always surprised Al-Fatari have never been closer to the top. And that's what I'm always with so much about this feeder team situation. I think it's great that they're going to not develop or not buying as many parts of Red Bull. They're going to have more in-house development, more house chassis creation. I think it's is an aerodynamic parts that they're looking at, which is really, really good. It allows some more individuality,

more technology increases. It allows them to be their own team more, which is fantastic. I also think Figa teams as a whole are utter poo, codswallet, rubbish. Because, thank you. Dermaricali, which is something we're going to talk about,

maybe not even in the preview, but another time, it has obviously recently come out and said that he only wants 10 teams on the grid, and even more recently has come out and said, well, I want 11 teams on the grid, grid now. I'm okay with that. Very confusing. Seems very much up to just Domeni Cahdi saying, yes, I know to people. But effectively, we've only got nine teams on the grid,

because Alpha Tauri will never win anything. They might win a race, as they have done. You know, they won Monsu with Gassi a little while ago, of course. But they're never going to title challenge. If it comes down to Red Ball and Alpha Tauri, Red Bull will be the ones that go on and win it by internal conversation. And it ruins it because you sit there and go, where we only want 10 teams on the grid, well, we haven't got 10 teams. I'd rather have Andretti coming and buy out Alpha Tauri and we can never have Figa series.

It also takes up too many seats. It makes transters very, very difficult. It just causes a negative pollution inside of Formula One when it's such a restrictive space anyway. I don't blame Red Bull for doing it. I think it's very clever, very savvy to give your team a whole training ground in the sport that they're going to be competing. It makes total sense that they're allowed to do it in the current rule set.

I hate it, though. I think it's a terrible way of interpreting the rules. And I think that the more that Alpha Tauri could get away from Red Bull and be their own complete independent unit, we might see some more competition. We might see some differences in the way that the cars are developing. We might see them stand out and achieve something of their own, which I really want.

So I think it's great that they're making that technological change. And then it shows that Formula One can have that diversity and individuality. I would like it to carry on and be more and more different. I wouldn't mind if they were just a customer team of Red Bull with a contract named for one seat. I just hate the current process. Ben, what do you think about this relationship and the parts changes? I mean, I've always been against feeder teams generally.

I don't think that this announcement is going to mean much. You know, it suits Al-Fa-Tauri that they're going to do this, but I don't think it will change much at all. I just don't quite understand. And it's not just Al-Fa-Tauri as well. It's important to note that the likes of, again, the relationship is not quite as big as it used to. be, but Williams buying in parts from Mercedes and HASP still buying in parts from Ferrari and having

that relationship with Dallara. So it's not just Alphatari. It's a lot of these teams lower down the grid having to rely on the bigger teams in order to go racing. And it just, it does seem very backwards because you're right. It does eliminate a lot of teams from potential championship contention. And I don't know, it just seems really, simple to me how to fix it. And I don't understand what I'm missing because if you've got a cost cap in place, at the moment, they're halfway there to a solution. They've got the cost cap in place. And at the moment, only certain things are covered under it. Make sure everything is covered under it, first and foremost. They've always been on that bandwagon. But, you know, set that number. If it turns out,

you know, only five teams can go all the way up to the upper end of that. budget, strip it back a bit more, and make it work. Make it work so you've got 10 or 11 teams that can fully function within their own right to an overall budget. And ultimately, you know, if they can't, then maybe they're not serious enough to be an F1 and you're replacing with someone else who is. You know, I feel like this whole customer argument is an attempt the way it works at the moment is almost like, well, it means we can have more drivers on the grid. it means we can have more teams on the grid, it's more accessible, great. And then on the other hand, you've already mentioned it.

You've got Andresi being turned away because, I don't know, they're not bringing in a manufacturer or whatever their argument is. It's like it's mixed messages. Make it so that the cost cap includes everything, set it at a number that all 10 teams can compete under, and go racing. Because surely that is the ultimate, that's where we're heading. That's where they're partially there already.

They just haven't got the second part yet. I think on top of the point you're making there, the cost cap is a great way to have a diverse series that allows each team to do something individual and create its own technological progression, which is what Formula One is all about. It's the pinnacle of technology and racing together. But when you've got on the flip side of the coin,

seasons that are fixed with the same supplier, you know, you've got the Figer series, F3, F2, and then you've got series in America, such as IndyCar, just so entertaining, so fun to watch, so many different drivers picking up wings or having speciality tracks or, you know, they can showcase that individual skill, all because the chassis and the car build is the same for every team. It's an argument on a plate right there for you that shows it works, whereas Formula One is going, seems like Haas, you can't afford to be

in Formula One fully, really, you know, you can't put 100% in currently without finding a ton of sponsors, buy other than Ferrari. And Ferrari would go, yeah, you can have our basic stuff. But then you haven't got the budget to go and turn that into a race-wing car anyway. So the parts are essentially, I thought maybe a freak season, none avoid from race one. The same you argue currently with Williams, the same surprisingly could probably be said for McLaren. You know, there are teams out there, but despite how much money they've got, they can't build their own parts because that cost cap is just too high. The ceiling is just too high. So Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull are probably the exception to the rule.

Alpine should be there. can go out and build this colossus of an empire in Formula One and spend all the money in the world and teams that are buying are purchasing parts off of them just go, yeah, well, have your scraps, essentially. They're just there to fill the spaces.

Very, very frustrating. I know we've moved away from Alpha Tari a little bit, but that is essentially the, if you were to put this whole argument in a nutshell, Alpha Tari is it. It's a pointless waste of space on the Formula One grid, which is a real shame, because they could be so much more.

Yeah, and I, IndyCar drivers a lot of the time will make this point. And I don't think Indycar is perfect because you do need to be Penske, Andretti or Chip Gannasi. Otherwise, you're not winning a championship. And that's completely fair. But a lot of the time, IndyCar drivers will say it's the greatest driver's championship in the world. And as controversial as it sounds, I agree. I think it is the greatest driver's championship in the world because there is more down to the driver.

And you're not, you know, you don't have to be a part of one or two. two teams in order to go racing and fight for the title. And I think they've got, like I say, I think they've got part of the way there with this cost cap. They've just got a long way still to go. And I'd like to see them making strides to get there because I don't know. I want to see, no, I don't want to see parity, but I want to see at least parity of opportunity, if that makes any sense at all.

Like, everyone should have the same opportunity to prove themselves. If it ends up in the same season as we've got here where Vastappan is dominant, but because the team are efficient because he's brilliant. Fine. I don't mind that whatsoever. I just don't want to see these. I think it's better than it used to be, but these, yeah, these customer teams, they just don't, I don't want drivers to step in the car knowing I can't do anything.

I can't win a title this year. It's not doable because of who I'm with. That fundamentally I disagree with. Yeah, you took the words right out my mouth there about, you know, if every team were able to get to the end of the year and say, we've spent 100 million by every single team. Every penny that we have available has been spent on developing the car, the team, the warehouses that we've got, the factory, whatever it might be, every penny got spent. And you go, right, okay, you're all on the level playing field then. You've all developed to the same monetary value. But Max Verstappen was just that much better behind the wheel.

and Adrian Newey developed the car within the budget to that point that you go, wow, they deserve to win that title. But when you know that the likes of Haas are not capping out the cost cap now, they're not spending $1,540 million this year, despite it being a cost cap, they're not hitting that upper limit. So they're still an advantage for the big team.

So when Alfa Tauria taking up a space on the grid and having to buy stuff with Red Bull, but still aren't even allowed to compete, even if they had a good season, it does become very frustrated to say to someone, So Pierre Gassely, you're in this seat for a year of your life. You will never be able to win more than one race this season. You'll never be able to commit for a champion.

This year of your life is a waiting game to try and get into one of the bigger teams. And Formula One does become like that sometimes, which is disappointing. Maybe so. Be interesting to hear all of your thoughts on this as well. Obviously, get in touch with us in the Discord on Twitter. Let us know your opinion on this because I know that it differs quite a lot. Some people, I don't know, perhaps more traditional about this and think that, you know, you should be able to spend as much as you want.

And, you know, that's the price you pay for the excellence in the championships. And, you know, it promotes progression and development. Absolutely fine. I think that's a very valid argument. I'm interested to hear other thoughts on this as well because we're, I think we're both fairly aligned in terms of our opinion here. But I know there are those that differ. Well, we've been friends for over 12 years, Ben.

It's probably why we're fairly aligned, really. Jesus, I was worrying. You know, I know I'm the moron, but you're also a massive moron. That's why we're such good friends. I've never denied I'm not a moron. Good. A nice moronic way to end the podcast, classic. Always can't be serious.

Do you want to say some stuff about TikTok and the like? Oh, yes. Social media. We are on it. We are with it. Twitter, I don't know how that's going to be around for. now Mr Musk is deciding to just remove everyone from operation. Hey, hey, hey, no, no, no.

Good talk. We like Elon Musk. We want to stay on that. Elon, if you'd like to buy the podcast, we will offer it for $3 billion. Not a penny less. You can remove whoever you want after that money. Anyway, at Elbreaking on Twitter, the late break airf on podcast on Instagram and when the kids come knocking, we go TikTok in. We're on TikTok.

Because we are so down with the kids if you haven't realized. Patreon is available. You get some great benefits. Ag-free podcast. Every single podcast we do, ag-free will be on there. You get an extra topic once a month. The most recent is what we do is about Logan Sargent.

You also get a discount on the merchandise, and we have got a whole new line of merch on the merch on the merch store. The links in the description. But if you just want to chat, F1, you just want to meet new people, have lovely chats about motorsport and cars and food and just, you know, have a laugh on your time away. Then we have a Discord, and the link's also there. It's a lovely community.

It's nothing like the toxicity in the comic section of Twitter. that everyone is kind, everyone will listen to your point of view. And we also have people in there. He'll obviously call it out if there is anything that's negative, although it's so rarely ever happened. So give it a try if you haven't already. We'll come back for the Brazilian preview, I think, and get spicy in Sao Paulo.

In the meantime, I'll be Samuel Sage. And I've been Ben Hocking. And remember, keep breaking late. Thanks for regating, Harry. Love you. Cheers, Zoe. Podcast is part of the sports social. podcast network.