The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Why Verstappen to McLaren isn't as crazy as it sounds

Episode Date: July 8, 2026

Ben and Sam catch you up on the latest F1 chatter, starting with the growing speculation over Max Verstappen's frustration at Red Bull and whether a shock move to McLaren could actually be on the cards. They also discuss Esteban Ocon's uncertain future and who could replace him, as well as Toto Wolff's suggestion that Ferrari may be running close to the cost cap... Get involved in F1 Fantasy this season! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join the Late Braking league⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and see if you can beat us... LEAGUE CODE: C6Y6R4ZUY02 Want more Late Braking? Support the show on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and get:Ad-free listeningFull-length bonus episodesPower Rankings after every raceHistorical race reviews& more exclusive extras!Don't forget! You can also gift a Late Braking Patreon subscription—perfect for loved ones or your own wish list. Choose anything from 1 month up to a full year of top-notch F1 content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/latebrakingf1/gift⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Connect with Late Braking:You can find us on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠X (Twitter)⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TikTok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Come hang out with us and thousands of fellow F1 fans in our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ server and get involved in lively everyday & race weekend chats!Join our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠F1 Fantasy League⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and see if you can beat us!Get in touch any time at [e-mail]  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Thank you for listening to the late-breaking F-1 podcast. Make sure to check out new episodes every Wednesday and every Sunday. And a very well welcome to the late-breaking F-1 podcast presented by Sam Sage and me, Ben Hocking. Here we are back for another Wednesday episode. No F-1 this weekend, Sam, the first time. First time in a couple of weekends, that's the case. But you know what? Ferrari are winning.

The sun is shining. Life is great. What alternate dimension have I woken up in? when those things are true? Yeah, boy, the sun is shining, Ferrari are winning, and life is good. Those are the three things. I'm not sure that's ever happened before since I've been around, but technically, yes, it's true.

Amazingly so. We've had a very interesting first few Grand Prix since that weird spring break. And now we've got a little bit of time to sit back and digest what's been going on. And we're recovering after what was a taxing weekend for us, you know, some late nights for some of the members of the teams, a trip to silver. Silverstone, but you know what they say? About tough times. What do they say about tough times, mate? They specifically say.

Thank you, Charlotte Clare, for the best radio message, maybe of all time. I feel like that. I don't know when that will be used, but it's just they're locked and loaded on the soundboard for any moment that you need to go. I've just started using it in my day-to-day life. When things go well, we overcome something, I just make that noise now. Yeah, yeah. I hear it from you plenty. But we've got a very interesting episode coming up today.

We've got, and I don't mean to, you know, oversell this. We have the greatest game in the history of late breaking coming up later on. And I'm very much banking on you having forgotten. I've said that by the time we get there. We've got some bit of needle going on, maybe between Toto Wolf, team principal, of course, at Mercedes and team principal at Ferrari, Fred Vassar. Some comments maybe on Esteban O'Con's future in the sport. Free of read time.

But we're going to start today with Max Vastappen, who has expressed his anger after a rear-wing issue caused another high-speed crash for the second consecutive weekend at this weekend's British GP. An apparent problem with the rear-wing sent Vastappen into the barriers during Q3 at the Red Bull ring last weekend, and then a similar failure, although not quite the same, struck again at the British GP with Vastappen losing control through Stowe. This time, however, his Red Bull came. to rest in the gravel rather than hitting the barriers.

Vestappen made his frustration clear over team radio saying, naughty word of this car, before angrily throwing his steering wheel from the cockpit after climbing out. Speaking after the race, Vestappen said the incident was like Austria, but different fault that's ended up in the same outcome. Team principal, Lauren Mekkes admitted Vastappen was right to be unhappy and said Red Bull has not ruled out returning to the rear-wing specification it used at the start of the season.

Do you think Vostappan has a right to be angry with how this is going? Yeah, 100%. He has every right to be annoying. And just a little tip it for you here, folks. Everything you hear about Max Vastappen on this podcast comes from a place of genuine fact, and we won't be ruminating on anything else going on. Yes, fact and love. That's how we speak about Vastan and nothing else.

Hashtag fact and love. Yeah, he has every right to be furious about this. He was driving a really brilliant British Grand Prix. And at least with the Austrian, in Grand Prix. It happened in qualifying. And look, he made up the places pretty quick. And whilst he may have gone to get a victory there, at least he finished the Grand Prix and in a very positive position, right? Picked up that podium, just played brilliant pace. And okay, sure, like I mentioned, in another world, maybe he wings it. But at least he finishes. Here at Silverstone,

you think, right, the team have evaluated the problem. They've come to understand it. And from what Lauren Meckis has said, they did evaluate the problem. They did come to understand it. And supposedly, they fixed it. So to end up at exactly the same point again, but with a whole different methodology, whole different issue, causing the same problem, essentially. That must be so, so annoying to finally go, cool, we fix that. Ha, you haven't. Syke. Psych, your rear wing stuck open again.

This is also really worrying from a Red Bull point of view that they've got a really dangerous issue in the car that has been provoked by two separate problems across two separate weekends. And there have been comments from Mecky saying that they might have to park it for spies, you mentioned. but equally the FIA might be investigating the Macarena rear wing for safety concerns now. Well, it's interesting. We had this on the docket anyway to discuss today and then about an hour before we've hit record, the FIA apparently looking into this

and not just from a Red Bull perspective, but more from a wider context because, of course, Ferrari also running a very similar rear wing. I agree with you. He 100% has a right to be angry about this. And I know safety might have come a long way in F1. It definitely has over the, past few decades. But F1 remains an inherently dangerous sport. And we've had it already this year,

and I know it's not exactly the same situation, but where we've had Colapinto and Bearman very nearly have a high speed crash, the FIA actually intervened on that one. That was related to closing speed. So again, not the same situation. But yeah, we are still seeing that safety remains power amount in this sport. And whilst at the moment, it seems like this issue might well be isolated to, I was going to say one team, but really one driver. It's only impacted Vastappen at the moment. And I think we're just fortunate right now, both Red Bull, Vastappen and everyone, that this hasn't resulted in anything worse to either car or more importantly to driver. It is very obvious to say, but I'm going to say it anyway,

a car losing control at its top speed isn't ideal. It's fortunate. Words of Max Verstappen. Yes, pretty much. And he'd probably say it in that way as well. It's fortunate that Austria didn't result in more, because that was a fairly hefty impact into Harry. Hefty is the word I would use.

And fortunate that Stowe, obviously, that the runoff is, there's a lot there. So he slowed down before he even got there. not all runoffs are made equally. And we don't know whether, and I know all of the circuits have to pass safety inspections before they even make it onto the calendar. But you look at the Kemmel Strait

where we're going next time at Spa. Who's to say that the runoff there isn't quite as big as what we got at Stowe? Maybe if that happened again, there would be a more dangerous incident. So, yeah, I think this is a safety concern right now for the team. And Vastappan has every right to be annoyed about it. Speaking of the sport maybe getting involved, the FIA looking into this, what do you

thoughts on that? This I was a little bit more sceptical about. What do I think the Stappan Red Bull have every right to be concerned? And they should internally be discussing this and making sure that if they're bringing an update to a car, which this was a big part of their car upgrade system a few races ago, you remember how almost jaws, mouth size, the rear wing suddenly appeared on the back of that Red Bull. You have to, at first foremost, make sure it fits a safety requirement for your drivers.

I'd rather you be a second slower and make sure that these drivers are able to actually get around the race track and finish a Grand Prix ideally without putting themselves at risk and the stuff has come out of said, but this has happened twice. Eventually I'm going to get hurt. And yeah, he's right. If the odds boil down to it,

you're crushing enough times at a speed like that. Eventually, it's going to hurt. It's not a pleasant experience anyway. So they need to make sure they fix this. For the FIA getting involved, I was quite curious that this was so encompassing. I was really surprised that this was picking up the lights, to Ferrari in their investigation as well.

That car's not had a single issue with its rear wing, and I do think it might be slightly unfair that Ferrari had been drafting in on the basis that, okay, technically it closes in the same way, bringing all teams then, because you need to investigate straight line mode to make sure that all rear wings open and closing a certain way. And I'm really worried that an investigation like this, which currently is affecting one team, one driver,

might end up damaging innovation. And it might ruin a little bit of the spark that we've got with these new regulations, One of the few proper positives is that we're seeing innovation team to team. We're seeing different side pods, different wing systems, the floors look different. There's a lot going on here. Those little inlets on the back of the exhaust is now being removed. You can risk changing a lot here, and that will damage the way that we think about technology and advancing in this sport.

I would like them just going to look at Red Bull first. Ferrari haven't had a problem, and I think until Ferrari do have a problem, I'm not sure why they are the only other team properly involved. Yeah, for the team itself for Red Bull, it's definitely a concern for them in that innovation can't come at the expense of safety. They can't supersede safety. No, absolutely not. And it again, it's pretty worrying that we've had the same outcome,

but for two completely seemingly different reasons. But also from a sporting perspective, they can't afford it either. I think you could argue the case that over the last two Grand Prix weekends, those two issues might have cost the team 22 points. I think it cost them 15 at Silverstone, in that I don't think he had caught Hamilton, but he was still on course for a third place finish, was Max Verstappen.

And again, people might disagree. I think if he qualifies a position or two higher in the Austrian GP, I think he might go on to win it, in which case maybe they've lost seven there as well. So from a sporting perspective, they can't afford it. I do agree with you, though, in terms of the sport more generally, I'm not sure what the FIA are looking to do here,

but Ferrari can definitely turn around at the moment and say, we have done over two, thousand racing laps so far this year and countless more practice laps and qualifying laps. And despite all of that, we have not had any issues. Why should we be punished for this just because Red Bull, who have copied this design, cannot get it right. And they would have a case for that. But we'll have to see what the FIA do there. It's like the naughty king, spoiling it for the rest of us, just because they've done something wrong, isn't it? Now, I can think that's a big unfair. Ferrari's reliability as being stupendously good this season. They have, what, one failure in Barcelona?

Yeah, yeah. For a new regulation, it's been very good. Both, and their engine supplies have also been pretty great as well. You know, Hars have barely had an engine problem. The same as Kaglack, all the issues they have actually had, most of them not related to the engine itself. So I think we need to cut Ferrari a bit of slack here. They've already had the exhaustion look band. And now they're possibly going to have the Macarena wing, which was their invention first, removed as well when they've done nothing wrong.

So a bit disappointed, hopefully that doesn't come to it. Now, Red Bull maybe have something of a decision regardless of what, what the FIA decide here as to whether they should move back to this old rear wing or not and essentially abandon what they've done. I think it's a really tough spot for the team here because they're in a position right now where they need to prove to Max Verstappen that he should stay with them long term, depending on how much you're listening to other rumours elsewhere. But still, this is an ongoing conversation for, I was going to say,

months probably years at this point. it's not a great look to back away from that. Remember, Red Bull, really since Vastappen joined the team 10 years ago, have been at the forefront of innovation when it comes to car design. They've often been the ones leading the way in terms of bringing something new and others have sort of copied them. This isn't a great look that, first of all, this design that they've got right now is a copy of what Ferrari did.

And then if they were to walk away from that on safety grounds, I don't know what message that sends Vastappen. I don't think it would even cost them that much in terms of performance. Like we've seen loads of other teams not run this wing and be fine. I think it's more about what that looks like to Vastappen that's the issue. It's a real downfall from everything that made Red Bull, seemingly Red Bull, right? They always were able to come up. And again, this is mostly Newey focused.

So that is a real issue for them. But Red Bull were very much an innovative team that had to think outside the box. because for the most part, the engine that they hang in the back of the car wasn't good enough to compete with Mercedes in their heyday, right? The last decade for, and something more for Red Ball, maybe a step behind because the power of the car has not been good enough. Now, it's the flip, absolute flipback. Yeah. Right? Yes, folks, I had to observe.

Well, well done. We're a family show. But they now have a great ICE. Ford have done a brilliant job in producing a great. great power unit. And the battery is not too shabby either. It's clearly not amazing because the likes of Mercedes and McLaurin running that Mercedes overall power unit are able to produce more, but the package initially very good. The bit that's letting them down now is the aeroside of the car, the chassis build, the innovative rear wing that we saw from there. Again, as you mentioned, it's not

theirs, it's Ferraris. The same with the exhaustion that I've just mentioned. Afeited one, it's now been removed, but that was Ferraris. Ferraris doing a great job at bringing new little ways to gain extra time. And we've spoken time and time again. about the fact that that that chassis is good. They're just down on power. But Red Bull are about to lose anything extra they've gained aerodynamically, potentially, and now their battery can't compete. So it's fascinating to see that for Max Verstappen,

he's going to get a team that's had to think outside the box and build a car that almost in theory should be incredible if the power unit is all right in the car. Now it's not really got much of either. Mercedes, Ferrari, Audi, you know, they're all going to be getting a duo points to upgrade. And we're seeing that Ferrari's really started to administer those. and we know that Mercedes have got such an advantage that Toto Wolf has gone,

I'm going to wait till next year to bring the first one in because I can. And Max hasn't got anything. No new toys to play with. No cool rear wing that goes flippy flip, no engine power to get him up the straight properly. He's just down in the dump. So he must be so frustrating in that Red Bull camp to go,

not only am I not getting any fun toys you play with. If you listen to the rumours, as you mentioned, he's not even being listened to when it comes to things like set up. So it must be dreadful for him after doing so well only a couple of years previous. Speaking of Max Verstappen and his potential future in the sport, Vastappan's management has engaged in preliminary talks

with McLaren Racing CEO, Zach Brown, about a potential deal with Brown taking the meeting after being approached. Vestappen again has a contract with Red Bull running until 2028, but the contract also contains a clause that allows him to exit the team if he's not inside the top two in the driver's championship at some unspecified point next month.

What are your thoughts on that? Is there any chance this actually comes together? Yeah, I'm starting to think it might do. I'm starting to think something is going to shift. And again, we're discussing potentials here. There's nothing certain going on. But you can hear just how frustrated Max Verstappen has become. And we know that Team Verstappen in the Red Bull camp are a strong force.

And they rightfully have very high ground to stand on. A lot of cards in their hand, Vestappen brought them a lot of success. even when the car wasn't particularly great, he was able to really put a challenge to the likes of McLaren previously. So the fact that he's now being left seemingly in the dark, he's not a key part of conversations.

Even though the contract potentially extends further, he's not able to actually get what he needs out of his car. I completely understand why he might either be looking to leave or might be looking at other options. And despite the rumours of maybe Toto Wolf doesn't want Max, that's another crap, despite the rumours of maybe Max for Saffin might swap out, with Oscar Piascriy, and they're all rumours, just to make that very clear, I can see why

they're rumours, I can see why it's being discussed, because he's got every single right to want to look for a different option, whether it's better or not, it's another question, but a different option, I think it's very fair. I think, firstly, like, these conversations, they're not, they're not unusual. Like, these chats do happen up and down the paddock, and some of them are, have maybe given a bit more airtime than others, because it's Max Verstappen, understandably, it gets people's attention a little bit more. I've seen a lot of, I'll say, criticism towards Zach Brown for taking this meeting about how, you know, your lineups Norris and Piastri, you've committed to them, you're looking at them over here, but you've got one eye on Vastappan over here. It's not fair.

Folks, Zach Brown's doing his job. And if he wasn't taking this meeting, he wouldn't be doing his job. So I've got no problem with him taking the meeting or indeed Vestappen's management team asking for it. I don't think it's crazy if this comes together in all honesty, but it would be a really tricky spot for Zach Brown if Verstappen was potentially interested in this move. Now, we know Zach Brown's not against bigger moves in terms of his driver line up. You only have to look at what's happened this week in terms of their IndyCar lineup.

But Norris and Piastri is a really great combination. You've got a world champion, the reigning world champion, and a driver that led that world championship for the most races in Oscar Piastri. Team principles, and I don't think people sometimes fully grasp this, team principles dream of that situation, and so many of them will never get it. And Zach Brown has it right now. He's got two drivers that I believe are capable of winning a world title.

We could replay last year, and Piastri could have won that title very easily. Red Bull especially, especially, have essentially had that, or at least for a very long time, they've not had two drivers capable of doing that. which means if you want to break that up, you need a very, very good reason to do so. Max Verstaffan might be a very good reason. Might be a very good reason. I mean, you've also got things like GP, of course.

It's going to be making the switch very soon. It makes sense that he's got a bit of an ally there that can look after him helping bed in. There's every chance that this does go ahead. Equally, to defend the likes of McLaren, I bet he's not the only team that have taken a conversation with Max Verstappen. I'm sure there are phone calls floating around.

I'm sure there are emails going left, right and centre. Because if Aston Martin start rapid development, I know it's a little far-fetched right now, but it's possible. Hungary Update is loading. It's brewing. Large stroke podium. You know, Audi might suddenly jump forward with the Adjura process. Ferrari might fall out with someone.

Sorry, it's not going to happen, but Mercedes also might go, actually, George Russell, you're not cutting a mustard. We're going to have someone else instead. There are options up and down the grid. I will be very shocked if it's only McLaren having come. socials. True. I would agree with that.

I don't know if you'd agree with this. I think Zach Brown would only consider right now two drivers to replace either Piastri or Norris and then Verstappen and Antonelli. I don't think he's even thinking about anyone else. Yeah, I actually completely agree with that. I think Russell is either equal or below both of the drivers he's got currently. I think he turns down Russell and he turns down LeCler. And I think he turns down LeClau.

And that's not a bad comment towards either of those two drivers. But why make a switch? when the quality is not so superior, what do you gain? So you own, I think you only do it for potentially either of those two drivers. And I still think you have to think about it. Because again, the way in which they, they're both in their prime, Norris and Piastri, they both work together quite well. Like there were so many points.

They clearly get along all right then. Yeah. There was so many points last year, it could have broken down and it didn't. So. They're both very professional. They clearly don't have a go at each other properly. Yeah, I don't know what you're switching out for. If I was Red Bull, I would be really concerned right now by this.

And again, that sounds really obvious to say in that one, your star driver is thinking maybe of leaving. Like, you should be concerned about that. I think what's more concerning is who it's referring to, and that being McLaren. Because with the greatest respect to McLaren, and I do genuinely mean that with the success that they've had recently and the recovery they've had in the last 10 years, they are a customer team and they're not winning right now. If Mercedes were interested, and they might still be,

but if all of these conversations were about Toto Wolf and Max Verstappen meeting, Red Bull could sit there and say, well, that makes sense. That team's winning. They've got the best overall package of chassis and battery and power unit. That makes a lot of sense

why he's looking at that short-term success elsewhere. McCarran aren't winning. They're ahead of Red Bull in the championship, but not by much. I mean, Max Verstappen is more commonly than got beating the McLaren's in the race. Well, he's finishing, of course. And he hasn't finished a lot of races this season either. The reliability has struck.

But you are right in the sense that if he is to make the jump, surely it's for a project that's entirely in-house and self-owned. That's why I think they should be concerned because it makes you think he doesn't have trust in Red Bull long term. He's not doing this in terms of, I'm not winning right now. Let's go to a place that is winning. I'm just really surprised that he would consider McLaren as a top. option, if I'm honest, from from Bostappan's point of view, if you look at their record in the last 25 seasons

in Formula One, they've won three times. You know, it's not brilliant, and I don't know why you realistically take that risk to go to McLarence, as you mentioned as a customer team, and not just push yourself into the parent team, Mercedes. The option's surely there if you called up

Toto Wolf. And also, apologies to Mr. Paul Monaghan, who I'm sure was hoping you'd get a full segment today. But he's been at a at Red Bull for over 20 years, chief engineer for car engineering, he's leaving for Cadillac. It's another name who's been there for so long

that's going as well. Again, the option of Cadillac, like I get it's a great project. It is a real long-term build. So in theory, yes, he's got proper growth in his career when he's there. But it's not like he was low down the becking order at Red Bull either, you know?

He was doing pretty well there. So I am quite surprised it. we've seen another person make the switch. Yeah. Well, I'm very keen to learn what you think on this one at home. Firstly, do you think that this could happen, Max Vastappen, to McLaren? And then for those of you, maybe, who are supporters of Vastappen,

would you want to see it happen? Are you done with the way in which that Red Bull Vestappan situation is going on right now? Do you think that McLaren might be a better avenue for him? Very interested to learn from you on that. Let's take a quick break. On the other side, it's the goat. Esteban on. See, Fee?

Oh. Welcome back, everyone. I'll be honest. I didn't want to chat about this, but Sam's like, oh, we need to chat about Esteban Ockon and the fact that he's in, you know, he's struggling right now.

And I'm like, no, he's not struggling. It's a real-time conversation that just happened. I promise that this is a real conversation. Yes. Esteban Ockon's future remains a major talking point in the F1 paddock with the race suggesting that only a dramatic upturn in Ocon's performances will give him any hope of staying at the team in 2027.

Now, Ocon and team principal Iocomatsu have both addressed speculation surrounding his future after the Miami Grand Prix, which again feels like two years ago at this point, but a run of underwhelming performances has done little to ease the uncertainty around his position with the team. Before we look at whether we think he will stay and if he doesn't, who might be in the picture to replace him, are these struggles? as bad as it looks, and if so, why is it happening? I mean, we've spoken about how some drivers just aren't great with a certain change

in car style, right? Charlotte Clare is one to take into the conversation here. And actually, obviously, he's just kind of rebuffed along those complaints by taking the victory at Silverstone. It's a good answer, it's a great answer. But that was by far his best performance all season, that race at Silverstone. He really did get a number on Lewis Hamilton. He was class of the field alongside Anting.

Esmond Ockong isn't doing one of those things. He's not answering some cries here that are coming out. But I will come to Ocon's defense for a moment. Behrman has been the class of that team. He has been the better driver. I'm not going out like that's not true. He has regularly outqualified O'Con, although not drastically. He has outscored O'Con as well.

But on that front, why does it matter right? now. With how bad the car is. Yeah. That's my question. With the car's not improving, they're not putting themselves in points paying positions on a regular basis. They're falling further and further away from Alpine, racing balls even. Audi looked like they've solidified themselves as a comfortably better team now. With Ockong struggling, why are we not allowing some time for the car to improve and embed it into a better situation over in the season before we make drastic changes because you're losing not just a driver in this sense. You're losing a lot of things. You're losing a lot of experience that comes with the car, a lot of possible feedback options.

You're losing someone that actually seems to feel very comfortable with the culture of the team and is providing a positiveness to that situation. Whilst I understand that he has not being good enough, this isn't one of those teams. I think you need to make a snap decision and get a driver out at the first time of asking, I think you can leave this to the end of the year. I think you can evaluate it come October November time. I'm not sure we need to make a call at the summer break, for example. That car isn't good enough anyway. It's not winning anything anyway.

You might lose a point or two across a few races. Do you know one thing that is typically quite bad for podcasting? What's that, mate? Mumbling. But I don't think I can say this next sentence with my full chest. Oh, God, we'll have to pump you up in the edit. this is pretty bad. I think it is as bad as it looks.

It's not good. And the problem is, with 2025, I think there was a lot of discourse last year about whether Ocon is getting it done versus Behrman. And I was kind of defending that, I don't think it's as bad as it looks. I think it was fairly,

I think they were fairly well matched last year. Part from those last few Grand Prix where Behram is suddenly set up. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. This year, though, it's pretty one-sided at the moment and it doesn't fill me with great optimism

about Ocon's future. I will say in terms of points because that's very one-sided at the moment. Behrman is 18-3 up. I'm not really looking at that too much because, again, what you said about the car, I think is true, but also,

Bearman was 17-0 up after two races because that car started the season very well. It just means that if you performed well at those two Grand Prix, you were always going to be ahead in this sort of matcher. We could have had it where Ocon was great for the first two races and Behrman's been brilliant since and Ockon would be ahead in the points tally. So I'm not actually looking at points too much here. What I think is more useful is the head to head and it just doesn't, it's not a pretty picture. It's what kind reading for O'Conn fans. Not so much. It is tough to pick out a race so far this

year where Ocon has beaten Bearman and you can just say at the end of it, Ocon was faster today. Like he has beaten him on a few occasions. A lot of those have come as a result of retirements or something going wrong on the car. The only one I can really point to where I thought O'Con was just a better driver across the weekend was Suzuki. Now again, as we referred to in the first segment, that ended for Behrman in the wall after nearly colliding with, well, based on the Colapinto incident. but Ocon was going to beat him anyway. Like he was the quicker driver that weekend.

That's one out of how many nine now? Yeah, one in nine is not great odds. Qualifying head-to-head, including sprints, is 10-3 in the favour of Behrman. And O'Con has been knocked out in Q1 in four of the last five qualifying sessions. I think those head-to-heads are really telling numbers. And the thing that I've really started to notice between them, especially in qualifying, It's not that Berman is qualifying 16th and just making it through to Q2 and Ocon is P-17, you know, he's being so unlucky.

The gap is regularly several tents between them. And Bermann is comfortably through to Q2, and O'Con doesn't seem to have a sniff of getting into that, you know, second section of qualifying. And that's worrying, because if the car is that bad that Bermann is able to sneak through by half a tenth or a couple of hundreds of a second, you go, someone's got to do it, it just happens to edge that way. He's so far off the pace that he's a little.

a bit unnerving, but I do wonder if this is where the car is going. And if we bring some upgrades, Ocon's form, which has never been bad. He's a good driver will start to come back around for him. Yeah, it honestly really confuses me as to why he's in this position right now. And if anyone's got an answer out there, please do let me know. Because whilst Ocon has never really outshone teammates, he's also kept up with pretty much all of them. Like, if you think about early in his career versus Sergio Perez at Force India,

barely anything between them. At that time, Ocon, I think, was the better qualifier of the two. Perez and marginally better racer. He was, of course, then teammates with Fernando Alonzo at Elpine, Renaud becoming Alpine. Again, very similar stats. Couldn't really separate them. Yeah.

And then against Gassley as well. Whilst that didn't end very well for Ocon, there again, wasn't much between them in terms of the statistics. It lost, but it was marginal. Yeah. And again, it's not like he's coming out here and absolutely demolishing teammates, but he's always shown that he can hang with these very good names. And right now, it's just maybe Berman is the goat.

That's the only answer I've got right now. I mean, it's understandable explanation that you've reached you there. What's next thing? Well, is there still a chance for him? I think that's the question. I think, like I just mentioned, I think, I don't think Harts will jump to a decision here. I don't think it'll be, you know, you're out by Hungary, for example. No.

Ben, they're sensible, and Kamatsu is a solid head. You know, he's a clever bloke. I don't think he's the kind of person to act in a rash manner. But I am sure that he is probably starting to ask questions of what's available, how does it look, as I'm sure is a certain Jean Haas, to go, what do we do in that second seat? Ben is going to be here for at least another year. We know this with the way that Ferrari are lined up.

What's going to be the plan? Do we keep on? Let's wait and see. But let's line someone up. And bang, what are the options that Haast might have? Well, I was just going to say very quickly on Ocon and whether I think he can survive before just, we'll get to those names, obviously, that could come in. I think maybe the issue for O'Con right now is you almost need to be in one of three stages as an F1 driver.

Like you even need to be this up-and-coming driver with potential, bareman. You even need to be in your prime, or you need to be a really experienced driver who can offer who can offer sort of development advice. Yeah, your Holkenbergs. Bottas and Perez are great examples of that at Cadillac. Ockon's kind of in this, he's not there yet. He's definitely not up and coming. He should be at 29 years old.

He should be in his prime, like me. Not for long, about it. No, no, maybe 30 will be more prime. But yeah, he's not there either. Like he's the second driver when it should be his prime year. So I think that's why there's still hope for him, but that hope is maybe dwindling, again, also related to the Bearman news, because when it was maybe thought that Bearman had a chance at going to Ferrari,

the stability of having Ockon in the other seat was probably quite tempting for Hasse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They might have more of a reason to take a risk now on some of these names upcoming. Yeah, there are a few that are in the mix, and I'm going to start with one that feels like the more cemented experience driver in the mix. as Yugosemachery, it fits one of the briefs that you spoke about, a driver that in theory, in theory, is in their prime.

And that is Yuki Sengoda. Now, Sengoga, of course, out of a drive after being booted from the Red Bull seat at the end of the last era of Formula One, I don't think that Haas will go for Yuki Sanoa, even though the rumours are suggesting it's possible. Is that driver-related or, and I know there's this whole Honda and Toyota discussion as well,

which... I don't think it's that. I don't think it's Toyota. I'm sure that Toyota, who are becoming more and more involved, of course, with Haas, we happily have a succeeding and thriving Japanese driver in their car. And I'm sure Honda wouldn't be too disappointed to sit there and go that there's no route for our driver to go somewhere else. We can have a negotiation.

We can have a conversation. I don't think that's the problem. I do think that, unfortunately, you look at what Sonoda actually has achieved throughout his career in Formula One. Liam Lawson has already scored more points in the racing ball than Yuki Sanof has ever scored across a whole season. You know, 33 points is Yuki-Sunga's highest-point scoring season. Lawson is already on 39.

We're only nine races into a year as well. The stats are starting to go against Yuki-Sungo. Could it be the drivers that he was alongside when he was at the likes of Balfourke-Tauri, of course? And then disaster of a season in Red Buller. We know that the second drivers hang it rough. And they did have it rough. He was dealt a tough hand, but it was really poor, especially up against the likes of Perez, who we gave some criticism too.

but this was worse. So I don't think that it's worth the buyout clause, the salary change, the adjustment, the risk of losing out on a young potential rookie driver that's another option to bring in someone like Sanooga because he also doesn't deliver on the experience of feedback front that you just spoke about.

He isn't on that part of that. No, Red Bull were like that this guy is the king of feedback. I'm not sure. After what we're seeing. I'm convinced. I'm, yeah, I'm not sold. So unfortunately, whilst I think Senguega is genuinely a prime candid it. I don't think they're going to go that way. I'm with you. I don't see it. And whilst he is

very much in the mix, I'm trying to picture him ahead and I'm not quite getting there with it, because Sonoda's fine. Why go for fine? Why boot out fine when you've already got it? Yeah, you would, I don't want to say it's a light for light replacement because they are very different drivers, Ockon and Sonoda, but equally, I don't see the benefit of bringing him in alongside Ben. I think you've got other options that could be more appealing. Sunoda has had numerous years to show what he can do in F1. And to be clear, I'm not saying Sonoda is by any stretch of poor driver. He's very solid. But I think at this point, we know he's not great, in which case, I'm not sure. And again, I'm not sure how the Honda and Toyota thing would play out to remind people, of course, Toyota associated with Hass.

Sonoda very much still linked to Honda competing Japanese manufacturers. There would need to be some sort of deal or Sonoda to leave the Honda project in order for this to happen, which I think for the sake of an F1 seat, you probably would. So that is a blocker that I think that they could overcome if they wanted to. I'm just not convinced Hass Will. It's not worth the effort, I don't think. What about their current reserve driver, Jack Dewin? Yeah, this, I think, was almost a bit of a safety pickup from Haas.

When he became a free agent when he was out on the market after swiftly leaving the Alpine team, it's a relatively, and I say this kindly to do him, I think, a relatively safe pair of hands to have him backup. Should O'Kong fall ill or, you know, like the COVID-inston. Someone who has relevant F-1, well, I say relevant, I know we're in a different era. He could drive a Formula One car of the last couple of years, and let's face it, in theory, he could finish a Grand Prix. I don't think he could do anything more than that right now, unfortunately. And again, why would I bother to recruit a known quantity that already let the side down

than another team? Can we say he's a known quantity? Did he have enough time to show? No, I mean, no. Yeah, that's fair. He's known enough, I think, for a team like Haast and not bother with the risk. I agree that he barely got a glimpse. And he also got introduced to Formula One in the worst way possible.

That last place. Yeah, by Flavio, the last race of the season, an Alpine team that was really poor, driving a terrible car against a guy that thrived in a terrible car, Pierre Gasly. So they only get, what, four Grand Prix the next season. Is it five maybe? Yeah, before being, again, booted out for a highly favoured Colapinto. It's tricky to evaluate him properly. But I do think there's enough info in there to know he's serving his job as a reserve driver.

And I think he's doing that well. So, again, I don't know why you would remove O'Kong to replace with Duhn. It's happened before at a different team. But I also don't, I don't see it either. Again, I know Jack Duhin didn't have a lot of opportunity to show what he can do. I think if he had had an outstanding junior career, it would have been worth a second attempt. He didn't have that. He had a very good junior career, as most drivers do that make it to F1.

but it wasn't outstanding enough that I think it's, that there are F2 champions that have never had an opportunity in the sport. So I'm not like clamoring for do and needs a second chance. So I tend to think it might not be him either. A bit of a wild card one here, which is Rio Hira Kawa. Now he's done seven FP1 outings, some of them for the Hasse, but also for other teams as well. A lot of testing of previous cars experience as well.

And he has that Toyota link. he's 32 years old, so he would be certainly in Modern F1, one of the oldest rookies we've had, and honestly, as someone under 32, I want him to be the pick. Yeah, technically, I again, will be younger than a new driver,

so I'm taking it. Congrats, Rio. You're in. We make the call. I love this as a wild car. Genuinely, I think this is fascinating. It's a lot of fun. He's a very talented driver, you know,

but again, He's got the age on his side for experience. The issue is he hasn't really got any experience when comes to Formula One driving. So you're really taking a risk on losing out on having, there's two drivers in theory, right? You've got Driver A, 32, no Formula One experience, I think a few test sessions, don't know how they can't perform. Or you've got Driver B, who's 19, 20, 21, no real F1 experience. We don't know how they can perform.

in theory you could get 20 years out of driver B. You might only get five and you don't know how good they're going to be on either side. So it just feels like again, it's not a risk worth taking for quite a seemingly low overall payoff in the situation. So I don't think they're going to go for this option. I think that leaves us with two options. And for me, they're the top two options. I agree. Whether it has to it the same way, don't know.

One of them is Leo Fauna Roli, who won the Formula 2 championship last year. Now, he's associated with McLaren, but very recently did a session with Hasse in a previous car, as well as doing an FP1 for McLaren recently as well. I don't love the idea of them having to hire him in. It's a very similar situation to what Bortoletto was in, that Bortoletto was associated with McLaren, won the F2 championship, with the same team that Forneroli won the Fonerole won the Fertil. 2 championship, but Audi got him outright.

I'm not sure Hass have the pool to be able to do that here, but I think he might be the favourite for this. Yeah, and I get why, you know, like you mentioned, F2 champion. He also won the F3 championship, of course. You know, he's one of the few that's managed to do that, essentially pretty rapid fire. Very talented young driver. I'm right in thinking that he obviously won the F2 title originally with no backing

from a Formula 1 team. Yeah, yeah, correct. Yeah. Yeah, picked up post-championship by McClain, very sensible pickup to have, again, if, let's say, Piastri walks off and Maxwell Saffling is interested, this isn't a bad person to having your roster to want to bring them in. He's a very, very talented junster. But again, very minimal Formula One experience. But this is the kind of profile I was talking about when you have Driver B, who is only between 19 to 21, 22 years old, could have a really high ceiling and just deserves a chance, deserves a big of a go. This is the kind of person that you place all your eggs in one basket and go, right, sorry, I'll on your cat and the mustard. What's the worst we get with a rookie? The same? All right.

Well, at least they've got five years to develop and they might be a superstar. So we'd give it a go. I just think that the holdback here, as you mentioned, is whether McLaren would be willing to settle almost a low-end cut deal to get him out of his contract. I'm sure it would cost him cost of absolute fortune. But we already know that the harsh team is spending up to the cost cap. We already know they don't have endless bags of cash like some teams do. This could put a dent in their costs so they may be kind.

can't genuinely afford. And it'll be a shame because it'd be great for me to have the opportunity. But that might be the genuine sticking point. Yeah, quite possibly. The other one, I think in contention, the last name is Rafa Kamara, who is in F2 at the moment. He's kind of following that same trajectory of Bortoletto and Forneroli. But at the moment at least, whilst those two won the title, Cameros third in in F2, so same team again, as both of those two drivers mentioned, I feel like Like he could get to F1 next year. It also wouldn't shock me if they left him there for one more year. Again, if he doesn't win the title,

and it's looking increasingly likely that he won't win the title, Solob's having absolute belter recently. No. Wind it in, please. Ben. Sorry. Yeah, you know, he won the F3 title, right? So he's the ringing F3 champion right now. He sits third in F2.

He's part of the Ferrari Driver Academy, which actually I think is a nod in his first. favor because bearman is exactly that right now. The negative actually, I suppose, from a half-spot of view is, do they want to drive this from the Ferrari driver economy sat there racing for them? Because in a fantasy world where Lewis Hamilton retires and Charlotte Clare is eventually breaks his heart and leads Ferrari, so they both go? At least you know there's a good chance that both of them aren't going in the same year. If you had one from Ferrari and one from McLaren, like there is a chance that they could both be called up at the same time.

Exactly. More unlikely. In a theory, you can make a calculated risk that actually one of these two in the next few years will be dropped from their Ferrari Academy duties. Most likely it's not going to be bareman with what he's showing and proven. So in theory, it's going to be a camera who is going to possibly be removed from that. And then HAST could essentially have for ownership of that contract. But it is a risk. Calculated, but a risk.

But it feels like a sensible option, but they will possibly need to find. an in-between if they don't pick him up over the next 12 months or so. Yes. Very interesting discussion as the summer break looms. We'll take a quick break on the other side. We've got hung bags between Toto Wolf and Fred Veser. They've got their handbags out, have they? Yeah.

Welcome back, everyone. Let's move on to Ferrari team boss, Fred Fassar, who has hit back at Toto Wolf after the Mercedes boss question Ferrari's aggressive upgrade schedule in 2020. saying Wolf's insinuations about whether Ferrari's rate of development is affordable under F1's cost cap amounts to accusations of cheating. Wolf described Ferrari as a team that seems to be limitless with its development, but Vassur responded rather angrily, saying Mercedes and Red Bull have viewed as genius when they bring upgrades while Ferrari is accused of cheating. When asked given the two are known friends, Wolf and Vassur, if it had the chance to talk with Toto, Vassar replied, I think it was better to avoid to say. speak.

Do you think Toto Wolff's initial comments were unfair? Ferrari do have previous. What do you mean? If you go on about those scandalous rumors of 2019 when the engine was completely legal, I'm going to be fuming. In 2019? No!

Legal. There were two races where suddenly the Ferrari was very good. And then suddenly it wasn't that good again. There's also been a few other examples where conversations have maybe even had that Ferrari have pushed the boundaries. But Fred Vassur was not team leader at this point. And I am going to, in Fred we trust. He's an honest man.

He's a not. Look at him. Mr. Vassar is not a naughty man. He's not a gauzy boy. He's a whimsical little man. I really enjoy watching as a human being. It brings a lot of joy to the world. I just don't think Fred's a cheat.

Yeah. Buddy smart is Fred. He's a really smart guy. Smart Fred. That's what they call him. Smart. I thought they call him on the streets of Italy. English as well.

They caught the accent. Yeah, yeah. I just don't think this is his nature. We've seen him manage teams before. He was, of course, really massive at the likes of Alpha Romeo as well. There was no foul play there. I don't think this is in Fred's nature. I don't feel like he's the kind of person that wants to wing through nefarious means.

So I think this is a bit cheeky from Toto Wolfe. They are friends. They're long-term friends. They have gone along for a long time. They've had dealings for a long time. I've had Diggings for a long time. And I just think that this has come out a bit left-wing because he's being maybe out-developed when it comes to a chassis point of view.

Ferrari are doing things correctly. The updates are working. The car gets better. They're bringing innovative and interesting. direction to their car that no one else is doing. And as we discussed going on the show, it's regularly being copied by their competitors. I just think praise where praise is due. Ferrari's engine not great, but the car itself looking really strong. Develop better Mercedes. You know, you got good at the engine. Get good at the car. And I think that's what they need to do.

Get good, son. I mean, yeah, it would be very Ferrari to cheat, but do it so badly that they're not winning. The more I think about this, the more it amounts to cheating. Damn it, maybe you got me. Yeah. I can understand why these comments have been interpreted the way they have. I don't think Toto Wolf's comments were meant with malice. I mean, Ferrari by number of upgrades, Ferrari have done a very good job of bringing a lot of them. I don't think it looks suspicious, though.

They've brought a similar amount to the other teams at the top, maybe slightly more, but not a stupid amount more that makes you think something's up here. I actually think Toto Wolfe's comments here were almost meant to be complementary of what Ferrari are doing in terms of, as in like, it's proving very difficult to keep up with the way that they are upgrading so quickly and they're creating these upgrades, bringing these upgrades to the track, they're working, they're doing so effectively and efficiently within the cost cap that they have. I almost think it might be a compliment, but I understand the way Fred Vassar has responded. here because it is his job to defend the team with everything that he has. And if he feels like the integrity of his team is being called into question, he should be responding as angrily as he has. I think Fred Visser is a very old-school type of team principal,

and I'm with you when you say, I can't see, I can't see him cheating. I can't even think about that. Get out of my mind. I don't want to think about it. I think it comes from a more of a, we'll handle our business, you handle your business, and then we'll turn up at the track and see who's got what. I think that's his style.

As a team principle, it isn't like Toto Wolf versus Christian Horner like. We're at each other all the time. Or Zach Brown versus Christian Horner. Or someone else versus Christian Horner. Or Google Drive versus Christian Horner. He likely doesn't appreciate Toto Wolf making assumptions and, you know, speculating about what's going on behind closed doors at Ferrari. The cost cap is complicated.

Like, it's, it's tough to know what's going on. It's spread out across so many different departments. And just because someone's bringing an upgrade doesn't mean they're close or not close to getting to that cost cap. And I think, you know, Fred Viserg just doesn't appreciate. You're making questions and making comments over there. Stick to what you're doing. We'll stick to what are doing.

That feels like a very Fred Veser way of operating. It's just paying the cleaners 1 pound 50 a month. And that's how we'd saving all the extra money. Oof. Yeah, that doesn't seem very fair. We're getting paid in Ferrari instead. Paid in hopium. Obviously, it's very valuable.

Yeah. It must be working. That nostalgia factor for Ferrari goes a long way. They're selling it on the market, making absolute fortune in social media posts. Fred Vassur is admitted. that Ferrari are deploying a bit of a strategy of upgrades earlier in the season rather than later. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, I think so.

I think it gives you a lot to work with if you get the job done early. You know if you've got a shot at a title, for example. If you get all your upgrades done by the summer break, and let's say, you're 50 points clear in the championship, where you go, right, we commit to this year, we continue the upgrade stage and we push forward. If you get to the summer break in your, you know, there are 100 points down on the Mercedes race, now. You know, if they get another two races in, there are 150 points down on the championship leagues, you turn around to go, look, it's probably not going to turn around right now. We are clearly losing ground. That's pivot our strategy. We work on the next year and we focus on things

like the engine properly, and that's where we spend our money. I think getting a job done early allows you to make decisions. It stops you being operating in kind of this weird gray space where you're not sure how to move forward. Very different to the way that McLaren, for example, are operating, which is almost a small step by step basis where they're adding a little bit and a little bit and a little bit. I actually think that ends up setting you back long-term. You can't play catch-up. Someone has an aggravation, you go,

oh, we should have copied that. We can't, though, because we're on the upgrade, 317 and 500. And it doesn't work like that. So I think Ferrari is sensible to do it this way. Yeah, I get it as well. I will say these comments from Fed Vassur kind of validate what Toto Wolfe is saying

in that they are putting together these upgrades earlier in the season, knowing that they maybe won't be keeping pace with that later in the year, because of cost cap reasons. I don't know what he was saying. But anyway, I think it's an understandable approach. If you make an upgrade at race five in an average F1 season,

you've got 20 rounds where that upgrade is going to be on the car and operating. You bring that upgrade at round 15. You've got half of that month of time. So sure, making your upgrades earlier in the season to make sure they benefit as many rounds as possible makes a lot of sense. And you're learning so fast at this point, not only in the year, but in the regulation cycle, that there is a lot of, of opportunity to develop and they don't want to get caught behind or they don't want to

fall further behind, I guess you could say, a team like Mercedes. And they really haven't been able to afford to let them get away. And to Ferrari's credit, it's at least kind of working because after four races, Mercedes were 70 points ahead in the Constructors' Championship. The last five races, so we're at the end of race nine now, they're now 78 points clear. So essentially five races, Mercedes have outscored Ferrari by eight points. And I appreciate both sides have had some reliability issues during that spell. But that is at least progress. So I can understand why, because if we were looking at 140 points right now, season over, it's done. I agree. I agree. I think Frank's done a good job, because there were a lot of rumors around his performance from the likes

of John Elking and Italian press. at the end of the last season that maybe he should go. I think he's quashed a lot of that. Oh, wow. Who would have thought John Elkin's comments were a load of nonsense? Did you see him at the Silverstone celebration? No. Walking around hugging everyone.

Best mates with everybody. Oh, two hundred fifty wings. Oh, look at us go. Next, they'll be asking for a cart in the next Lego race, weren't he? Yeah. I'll split the fair with my mate, Ben. Oh, not me. That's his middle name.

That's his middle name. Yeah. The name's Mohammed. What a lame name, Ben. Yeah. Just call yourself Mohammed Suleyam in future. Sorry, I don't think MBS was going to catch strays in this topic, but here we are. He will always catch trades.

Do you think when it comes to Ferrari later in the year, it could catch up to them? Yeah, 100%. No, I think that is a very big worry about what's going on. And that's what I mean by part of doing the upgrades early allows you to evaluate if you might overdo it. You might go the wrong way entirely and not actually benefit from this. You mentioned about getting a proper benefit allowed by having it on for 20 races rather than 10. That makes total sense. But equally, if you've gone the wrong way, at least at race 10, you can go, we've gone the wrong way. This isn't working. Pack it in, do something new.

If you go the wrong way and it's race 20 of 24, you're like, oh, poo. We've put so much effort into this season. And now we've got to start thinking about the next season. And we're wrong. We're on the back foot. The whole journey of this car that we've designed on is wrong. And fundamentally, we need to change everything. And that is what was wrong with the Ferrari at the end of the last set of regulations. They changed their brake system. They changed the way they designed the front end.

It just was wrong. It didn't work. And it's here they can get to the likes of Hungary in the middle of the season and go, we're onto something or the opposite of, we're really not onto something. Back out now, change the direction. So it might catch up to them. It might.

But equally, it means they can catch it up if they are being caught. Yeah. Toto Wolf has said about his team's upgrades that, and you mentioned this about a duo earlier, about waiting for that, but even outside of that system and just more regular upgrades, they've got one in development at the moment,

and they're just not, they're not going to launch it until they are completely happy with it. And it's, whilst Ferrari's approach is understandable based on where they are in the championship, same can be said for what Mercedes are doing right now. Why rush it when it already works.

Indeed. Should we do an F1 fantasy update? Oh, God, Ben. I thought you might say that, and I thought you might shake your head, Kirstie. Right, top three in the league, Neville-Faith still leading the way, although it is getting a little bit closer up top. Lumley Speed Syndicate is in second place, and new into the top three, we have Fan Amp Fantasy HQ.

In terms of the British GP winners, a couple of teams using their limitless chip to very good effect, a haste la vista baby. So good. 409 points, the same as Robbie P's races. But what about the four of us? Well, it couldn't be much closer. Sam, you were a user of your limitless chip this weekend, and that has helped you to a 186 position increase,

which means you have regained the lead in 350th. I love that. This is the best news of my week. I've dropped 15 spots, which means I'm in 355th and exactly two points behind Sam right now. This is the championship fight you want to be here for. Yes. But whereas I think we might be the two McLaren drivers right now, if we're using last year as a bit of an example,

Kirstie might be Max for Snapham because 472nd, It's kind of a bit uncomfortable still there, but a drop of 45 spots this week. I'm not saying I wish you harm, Kerski, but maybe your rear wing might not close in a few fast corners coming up. Impressive that this man is leading F-1 fantasy and doesn't understand how it works. I understand how anything works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're there building your car, like in your garage, like... I'm literally going to car outside.

Good news, though, Kirstie, you're not last because we can always rely on. on Harry Ead for that. He's 724th. And I don't know why this is funny, but he's dropped six positions. That is funny. I feel like that's funnier than him dropping 100 spots. He's just dropped six. It is funny.

He may as well have done anything. I don't think he did do anything. I think he forgot. So we'll have to see as we head towards the summer break where the championship is going to swing, because all three of us have had an opportunity at the top over the last month or so. And Harry's been playing as well. Yeah, it's good to have him along. Yeah.

Right, let's take our final break on this episode. On the other side, we've got a game. Might not be the best one we've ever played. We'll see. Is that a false promise at the start? Yeah, it might have been. Welcome back, everyone, to the final part of today's episode, and we're playing the greatest game in the history of late breaking,

which is, of course, Hamilton or Nah, Milton. Wow. I didn't think we can manipulate any more drivers who sound like a yes or no situation in the most forced way possible. Forced? What are you're talking about? Here we are. Forced? Slander.

Yes, the new hit game show, Hamilton or Namilton? Come into your screens never. We're asking whether we would, on a three-year deal, take Lewis Hamilton or these drivers, We've got four different drivers we're going to be comparing. I'm interested to see how we go here. Some alternative options here.

So which driver would you take on a three-year contract? Lewis Hamilton or Oscar Piastri? I'm going Hamilton for this one. I think that when Hamilton is in a car that he's comfortable with, he's producing in this world, that's what's happening this three-year deal. I just think that he's just a special driver. There's a reason why he's got seven-type. It was 105 race wings, I think it is now.

He is... More than for Stapin and Alonzo combined, I saw earlier, which... Which is quite good. Not bad, is it? It's quite good. I just think he's still got that spark. And whilst I have my doubt, certainly in the year and towards the end of 2025,

things change, and the guy has come back with a real vengeance. And Oscar is sensational. I just don't think he's got the ceiling of what Hamilton is at right now. This is super close. I think this is really close. And we start with a disagreement. I'm going Oscar Piastri. We might be entering Piastri's prime years at this point.

And he was so close to winning the title last year. And honestly, for three quarters of the season, he was the most impressive driver. And a part of me thinks, if we replay that season, just with a little bit more experience for Piastri, he might well win that title. The 2026 season hasn't been great for. him. Some of it his fault. A lot of it bad luck as well. In fact, he's 16th at the moment in terms of

laps completed on the year. The only drivers that are below them, below him. Ironically, his teammate, Lando Norris, and then you're getting into the Aston Martin's Holcomberg and Albin. So their reliability has been really bad. But where he has had an opportunity to show what he can do, such as Suzuki, he has still shown out. So a tough season four, him, but I am just about going to go for Piastri. Which driver would you take on a three-year contract? Lewis Hamilton or his ex-teamate, George Russell. If you asked me this question in Australia of this year.

I would have been shouting very loud because you weren't in Australia. I wasn't, you're right. If everyone would like me to be in Australia, though, let me know. Just any time, any place. Let me know. Hit me up. I'll come down. I'm taking Lewis Hamilton.

Russell has been phenomenal. But the moment something hasn't gone his way, he has been found out. And it shows how much a certain type of car can matter to a driving style. And again, in this world where I believe the car would suit the drivers, I think Hamilton's overall ability is better than Russell's overall ability right now, and he's got enough in the locker for the next three years to maintain that.

So, again, six months ago, maybe it would have been slightly different, but recent results have swayed me the other way. Six months ago, it definitely would have been different from my side. But I'm with you. I'm going Lewis Hamilton here. It's really tough because we've seen these two as teammates, and it reflected quite well on George Russell. in that George Russell in their final year

his teammates out-qualified Lewis Hamilton 17 to 6. We saw in of those three years that they were teammates Russell beat Hamilton on points in two of them. He was very impressive head-to-head against the driver that had won so many titles at the same team at Mercedes. Yet my concern right now is too high for Russell

and these current regulations. I just don't think it suits his style And if we're going with a three-year contract that we're stipulating here, that's all going to be in this regulation cycle. So if you could fast forward me to maybe 2030 or 2013 when things change up, sure, I'll take a punt on George Russell. But right now, I'm with you. Which driver would you take on a three-year contract? Lewis Hamilton or Ollie Behrman? Now, this one is a very different scenario to be.

Yes. We're talking about, you forget that Olly Behrman is having a challenge. just 21 years old. You know, there's a lot of credit that goes to the likes of Antigelli and Limblog for how much they're doing at such a young age. This kid's been at Haas, and he has done such a brilliant job

in a team that is maybe the biggest struggle on the grid when it comes to funding and ability overall. And that's why I'm going with Olly Beerman over Lewis Hall. I'm assuming, again, same team. I get to pick what they do. I just think I will not lock down Olly Beerman now.

That's interesting. because whilst I think that Hamilton now is a better driver, comfortably a better driver, in three, possibly four years when that starts to roll over and have to renegotiate, I think Bamman is in a position to being a top team, ready to race. And Hamilton, with the most respect I can ever put on a sentence, will be nearly 45, and I just think he'll be ready to go. So I want Ollie for the end of this contract, not because I think that Hamilton will outdo him across the whole thing. thinking more about future promise right now than overall outwitability in this moment.

Not, didn't quite want to bite at Piastri and Russell, but Bearman's got you. I've seen enough. I've seen enough of Piastri and Russell to know. Berman, I think, still a bit more to give. Yeah, you're right in saying that this one is a completely different prospect to the other two, because whilst we've seen Piaastri and Russell in a top car, we definitely haven't seen that in Berman, who's obviously only been at Hasse, save for the one race that he did at Ferrari. I am going to go with Lewis Hamilton here. And I'm just not, I'm the type, I need to see it.

And I'm not, I don't have the opportunity to see it. And I understand your logic completely because the potential is there for Berman. It's just, it's a risk. Until Berman is in a top car and you see that happen, there's a chance this is a clangler. Like if Berman gets to a top team and it's, it doesn't look great, then suddenly or you made a big mistake. It's risky. It's an understandable risk. But from my side, if it's a lot of.

If it was five years, I'd take Berman, definitely. Three years, I'll just about go Lewis Hamilton. And lastly, which driver would you take on a three-year contract right now? Lewis Hamilton or his current teammate, Charlotte Clare. The hardest of the selection. Yeah. But I've gone with Lewis Hamilton. And I've gone with Hamilton based on one very specific point here,

and that is the ability to develop a race car. It has become quite evident that while Charlerclair is maybe the best one-lap driver on the grid, while Charlecler has got some of the best raw pace on the grid, well, I think he's one of the most brilliant individuals on the grid. We ain't winging right now, and I'm assuming we're Ferrari because they're both there. We're very Ferrari in life, yeah. We are. We ain't winging.

But we call AF. No, we're not. Which Ferrari have never said. because they're actually cool, and I'm a fool. LeClaire has immediately had to make changes to that car based on what Hamilton is doing. The moment Hamilton is involved in car development, it begins to succeed again.

It's telling me that Charlerlerc is one of the best races, but is he one of the best at actually building a team? And with that in mind, with a new set of regulations that we're in, I've gone with Hamilton on that basis. That's nothing to do with their pace in the car. I think they're pretty equally matched right now, as we've seen in recent races. It's based on what they can do for the car. You're right.

This was the toughest one of the lot. Why was it last? Maybe there's something in that. Whoa. Man knows how to play a good game. Wow. I'm keeping the faith. Charlotte, Claire, come on.

I knew it. I've got to keep the faith. I just feel sorry for him. It's the only reason. It's a pity pick. I actually don't, maybe my answer would have been different before Silverstone. And I don't want to read too much in one result. But Charle-Cla has been so good, so many years that even though it's been a difficult six months,

he has built up enough credit for me to go with him still. The way in which I know it was a different set of regulations, the way in which he demolished Lewis Hamilton last year. The fact that it's still relatively close this year, although I would still still. say Hamilton's been the better driver, it leaves gives me confidence that, let's say, let's say it stays level this year, and maybe even stays level next year. I think by the time we get to Hamilton in year 44, appropriately,

or we get to LeCler getting into his 30s, at that point I think LeClaire is better, in which case I will go with Charles. It was the closest one of the lot, though. It's an understandable pick. I see why you went that way. I think might have done an all right job in picking the four drivers there,

because we've only agreed on one of them. They were tough, genuinely. When you sent them over, I went, these are really difficult to pick between. Again, it took me some time. I'm interested to see at home, if you've played along, were you closer to Sam's selections,

closer to my selections? In theory, you should have been close to one of us, at least. If you've managed to find a way to be close to neither of us, then you've probably introduced the third driver, which is breaking the rules of the classic game show, Hamilton or Namelton.

Howard, you can't pick yourself for everyone. Yes, probably not making a return any type. soon, but I hope you've enjoyed. I think that's going to do it for this episode, Sam, if you wouldn't mind, getting us out of here. Folks, hopefully you've enjoyed the discussion. Let us know your thoughts are all the key topics we've covered. You know, Will Vastappen potentially

end up at McLaren? Should he be unhappy with what's going at Red Bull? Should Red Bull be worried by what's going on with their straight line mode in the rear wing? Equally, what will happen at Haas? Ocon going through a really difficult time? Is it enough to remove you from the seats? Or should he get more time? And then Fred Busser,

you know, Toto Wolfe? Are the comments, correct? are we doing a great job. What are your thoughts? And again, on that last topic, fascinated to know who you would pick on either of those decisions. You can do that in the comments below. You can do that in Discord. The links in the description. It's a great place to speak to us or be involved in, you know, what goes on on the podcast. Or you can join Patreon. And Patreon is a great space where you can support the show. And every time you do it, allows us to create more, better content, where we can go to places, we can go to things, we can host live shows, we can invest in equipment. And it just makes the show better. So if everyone not really is on there, thank you so much.

If you're not on there, check it out. You can subscribe for a month. You get so many great benefits. We just record the beer breaking. It was one of the most ridiculous episodes of a show that the three of us have done in a long time, and I promise you will laugh. And if you don't cancel that subscription, that's okay.

You can follow some social media if you'd like to see more silly clips, question of the week, or if you're going to watch the show as well, we do that on YouTube. It's all under late breaking F1, and we appreciate the support over there as well. We'll see you on Sunday.

There is not, of course, a race happening this weekend. So it will be another standard episode with lots of news and chats and discussions and games to dig into, but hopefully you enjoy those. Can't wait to see you there. In the meantime, I'll be Samuel Sage. And I've been Ben Hocking, and remember, keep breaking late.