The Late Braking F1 Podcast - Williams sell up - is it too late? | Episode 75

Episode Date: September 16, 2020

In this week's episode the boys discuss the sale of Williams, talk about the drivers lined up for the next Ferrari Junior drives, and dish out the much anticipated mid-season awards!Make sure to SUBSCRIBE! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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true craming me? Can I have another slice? Try the season's biggest hits from the PC Holiday Insiders Report. Thank you for listening to the late breaking F1 podcast. Make sure to look out for new episodes every Thursday and Grand Prix Sundays. Hello and a very warm welcome to the late breaking Formula One podcast. My name's Ben Hawking, joining me as ever, Harry Ede and Samuel Sage. Guys, how's your week going? Weeks good. We haven't got a race coming up though, so I'm a little bit lost and a little bit confused and my family are very confused because I'm actually free to do things on both

Saturday and Sunday. It's puzzling times. I mean, Sam, you could stay and watch a 24 hours of Le Mon, all 24. All right. Yeah, that's it. I'm sorted. Sorry, family, all plans are off. Lamong is on. You just explain to them.

You know how F1, like Micello went on for almost three hours. It's just a lot, a lot more than that. If you're time by it, then you've got this race, and that's happening now. So, bye. I love it. Literally seven races in nine weeks. Oh, by the way, 24-hour race at the weekend. How about that? There's always motorsport. There's always something.

But focusing tonight, we're going to be looking at Williams. And obviously, it's been a very eventful few weeks for Williams. We'll just be unpacking everything that's happened and discussing our reactions to it. The Ferrari Driver Academy is going through a bit of a good spell at the moment. They've got a number of drivers in contention for the Formula 2 Championship. We'll be looking through their options and how many of them and which of them will looking like they might get a 2021 seat. And because we are halfway through the season now,

we will be giving out some F1 mid-season awards that I'm sure all of the drivers and teams will be desperate to know whether they have picked up an LB. Bringing back the LB, it's been a bit of a while. But first, we are going to focus on Williams. You might have noticed we haven't touched this topic until now, purely because we wanted to give this topic, the attention we think it deserves.

For the first time since the team's inception in 1977, the Williams family has no involvement in the team. And in fact, Frank Williams, his involvement in F1, goes back even further to 1969. So, yes, it's quite groundbreaking news from the Williams family here. It came to an end with the news on the 21st of August that Dorotum Capital will be acquiring the company, although keeping with the Williams name, at least for now.

Claire Williams was offered the opportunity to stay on as team principal, but she declined that offer. So Simon Roberts is taking over the ex-McClaren man, at least on an interim basis. Sam, starting with you, what was your reaction to this? It was pretty shocking. I mean, Dolston Capital came in. They've obviously taken over what was pretty much going to be the last proper family team in Formula One. McLaren obviously still a family name, but has no actual link, really.

to the McLaren family anymore. So Williams kind of take that all on their own. Struggled, where they bought out, and now obviously he had no longer with us in the sport, just the game. They've officially walked off the calendar. They're not going to be there every single weekend, which is a site that I've been used to seeing

literally since I started watching Formula One for the very first time. So many years ago now. I am absolutely shocked that neither Claire or Frank will be there. It's a real shame. I really enjoyed having the both there. It's a real shame for women. in motorsport because obviously Claire was very much someone to look at, someone to admire,

someone to work towards, you know, she had fought her way through what was a very male dominated area and she no longer had that for her now because they've had to sell up due to the financial difficulties, their experience, which is a real shame. So I hope that maybe she covers back to the sport in another aspect, which would be great. And that we see more female team bosses and leaguers throughout the sport going forward. But I mean, there's so many wonderful Williams moments throughout history, it's a shame the family can't enjoy them any but maybe, maybe this is the lease of life now that Williams actually need to kick on and rejoin the midfield. And maybe you get a cut of home to the Games or a wing.

It would be great to see them back on those top steps once again after what feels like it's been absolutely ages. Yeah, certainly progress made in 2020, but more progress can be made compared to where they are right now. Harry, what did you make of the news? Yeah, a broad agreement with Sam. It was a sad day. I mean, I was less sad when the news came in about the, you know, the Northern Capital News because we didn't know at that point that Claire and the family were leaving was just kind of happy that Williams were staying in F1. And of course they still are.

But the, yeah, it was, it's sad to see the last, the last privateer team go. I mean, yeah, racing point aren't really a privateer team anymore. definitely won't be next year. They're not Jordan anymore, unfortunately. Yeah, it's sad. And, you know, as Sam said, the history they have in the sport, F-1's definitely a different place now. They were kind of the last hurrah of the old days of Formula One

when a privateer team could take it up to the big boys. So, yeah. and to be fair to Claire she's got a bad rap over the past few years and you know rightly so Williams is sunken into a pretty pitiful pit of bad a bad results pitiful pitiful pit I love that but you know 14 15 16 17 they had a podium in all of those years admittedly 17 they had won 14 and 15 they were third in the constructive championship 2015 they beat Red Bull and I know that's down to a few extenuating circumstances

they really were helpful in Mercedes engine dominance but she still led that team to two consecutive third places in the championship so yeah I think obviously past performance guarantees nothing as evidence here but yeah I don't think she did a particularly bad job in fact she did quite a good job just the last couple of years have really caught up and it was just it proves that you can't be a private team in F1 anymore.

And I don't know whether that's, that's a, you know, makes F1 look bad. Why can't a team be run by a family anymore? And maybe that should be something F1 looks at. We shouldn't have lost all the privately run teams. But anyway, that's a different conversation. But yeah, a sad day. But happy that the Williams name remains in F1 still. Yeah, which is important to remember.

And that's a real positive that's come out of this. And of course, yeah, Claire Williams did have the opportunity to stay on as team principal. And I think she should take heart in that, even though she didn't accept the offer, that someone outside of Williams, you know, Dollerton Capital come in, acquire the company. They have complete reign over who they want in that position. And by choice, they would have had her. So I think Claire Williams can take a lot of heart from that and know that she did do a decent job over the last few years. And to be quite honest, I think you could probably put nearly anyone in the same position that Claire Williams was in.

And I don't think it would have gone a right lot better. The simple fact of the matter is that team is not set up to succeed or was not set up to succeed in this era of Formula One. And you have to praise them for holding on to the heritage of the company for as long as they could. And not only being the last of the old guard, so to speak, but by a long shot as well. you know if you look back at the likes of i don't know say ken tyrell and tyrol racing team um edie jordan of course and even further back you know colin chapman at lotus and you know these these characters and these drivers they they all died out by the end of the 20th century and williams managed to through you know sensible sensible partnerships um through the mercedes power you know obviously helped

at the beginning of the the hybrid era they were able to they were able to keep going in the state that they were in. And it's really admirable that they could do so. The only thing from Claire Williams' perspective that maybe she should have had, or they as in the team should have had the foresight, that that Mercedes engine was covering up a lot of weaknesses with the car and within the team, and maybe they weren't able to see that quickly enough. But to be perfectly honest, even if they were aware of that,

I'm not sure what actions could have been taken within that setup at the time. I think, you know, Formula One ultimately, the formula in Formula One has changed. You know, the formula for success is not the same as what it was in 1980 and 1985 and 1990. It's just not the same anymore. Which, yeah, I agree is pretty sad to a degree that these, these, you know, plucky characters can't come out of nowhere and really make an impression in Formula One. Because I think these characters are very good for Formula One. Frank Williams and Claire Williams have been great for the sport. Eddie Jordan was incredibly entertaining.

I know he split his opinion. I loved having him in the paddock. Ken Tyrell was a character. Colin Chapman was a character. These guys are representing themselves and themselves only in a lot of instances. Not to say that the current lot of team principles and team owners are bad, not by a long shot, but a lot of the time it does feel as if they are towing the company line, so to speak, and they are representing big brands.

and as a result of that aren't the same sort of bold characters who want to go racing. And that is a bit of a shame. And maybe F1 do need to look at that and work out how that could be achievable in the future. Maybe we're too far past the point now. But yeah, you know, Williams, I just have to say, I admire everything they were, everything they will be. And yes, this was an inevitability. Ultimately, this was inevitable. This was going to happen.

they need to find a way to win. Their setup was not designed to do so. Now I think, yeah, I think they can get in and amongst the midfield again. Can they go further on than that? That remains to be seen, but it's a good start at least. I mean, one thing I want to focus on, actually, is where Williams could have gone slightly different. And the thing that keeps coming back to me is their partnership with BMW in the early

21st centuries of 2005. Harry, do you think the decision not to go with BMW and allow BMW to take over the company at that point? Do you think that was an error? Or do you think that could have been done differently? Would that have changed the course of history? I think it would have kept them more competitive for the next few years.

And, you know, I've seen a few things, people say that, you know, that was the turning point and they never recovered from that. But let's look at BMW. What did they do in their, 10-year-in F-1. They had one race win. Who's to say that it would have been any better if they stayed with Williams and taken over that team? So I don't necessarily think it would have kept them nearer to the top, that's

for sure, over the next few years, to the end of the naughties. But whether that would have stopped the inevitable, because we still would have had the big financial crash, Toyota, BMW, and Honda all would have pulled out anyway. And then Williams would have been left where they were at the end of 05 and what with maybe one more win. So I don't, I wouldn't pin it to that. I don't think. And, you know, they couldn't have foreseen what F1 would have been like now. And they didn't, you know, they didn't want to let go of that independence.

And I don't think, I didn't think we would have looked at Williams the same if they had given it up then. And it's sad now. But like I said, we admire them for, you know, doing as much as they have since then. I mean, they still got a race win. Good old pasta. And as I said, they've had a fair few successful results in between then. So as an independent team. So, you know, yeah, I don't think it would have made much of a difference, to be honest.

Fair enough. Sam, what do you think? Obviously, the last time Williams were in contention for a championship, 2003, there was the BMW partnership there. Do you think that BMW taking over the company would have made much difference? Yeah, I do. BMW are a manufacturing powerhouse. They're one with the most successful car manufacturers and engine manufacturers of all time.

They have financial capabilities as large as the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari. They are monumentally huge. And of course, they are so German-centric. And in Formula One, there were no other key German members at that point anyway. Obviously, Macquar and Mercedes were together, but there wouldn't be one core German team. And remember the Sebastian Vettel trial with that kind of team

so they could have brought in battle. Rosbergh was there Haigfeld was there there's a lot of German talent Ralph Schumacher there's a lot of

German talent that he's a talent get the jaw out you know get your jaws out for the lads and to me I feel like they can really

pull together a great polar talent they can really come up for something really interesting BMW and how

doing really wanting a Formulae BMW are we're doing really really want in DTM you know BMW have consistently being at the very top of manufacturing across the world.

They know how to make a good car. They know how to make money. They know how to be profitable. They're just very good at what they do. And I think if maybe they've done a 50-50 split, if the Williams team had in their own holdings and sold half of them, they could have been a really interesting partnership form there. And the talent they hang around them at that point,

if they were able to step on, navigate the financial crash, and come back in that hybrid area, which they're clearly doing well in with electric power at the moment, I really think they could have been a contender. I think they would have had the know-how, the financial input, and the technology behind them

to make something quite interesting. Of course, it's all hypothetical. Of course, it's all irrelevant now. And I do have a lot of pride for Williams for sticking out as long as they did as an independency for being as successful as they could be in what is the most expensive era of racing

we've ever seen. All on their own. They've done a great job. But BMW were a massive, massive name to have as a partnership. They have had that sole relationship, relying on Mercedes to be the only person that they can get engines off,

OBE team options, being held back because you can't do your own engine stuff. Like LeBronin, they want their own engine. They don't want another big team sharing an engine with them. So, yeah, I do think that actually, BMW might have been their ticket back to success, big time success. It's a shame.

It's a shame that they couldn't carry it forward. But good for them for sticking with their own morals. And it came to an engine, which is a real shame. Yeah, I think from Williams' perspective, they had become accustomed to very strong relationships with their engine suppliers. They had a very brief tenure with Honda, which worked well. They then go into this long-term relationship with Renault, which works very, very well. And it brings them many championships.

So they end up, you know, Renault end up leaving F1 at the end of 97. And then after a few years, sort of middling out with other engines, suppliers like supertech, they get this BMW partnership in 2000. And from William's perspective, it worked with Renault, it worked with Honda, and it just didn't work with BMW. And they had a very toxic relationship, if you remember back then. It didn't quite click. BMW blamed Williams for not being able to produce good enough cars.

Williams blamed BMW for not producing reliable enough engines. And it seemed to go back and forth like that for far too long. When you are relying on an external partnership like they were, that relationship has to be perfect. Because if it's not, it's not going to be enough to topple the likes of Ferrari, as it were back then, who obviously would have been doing their engines in-house. They don't have to deal with that external relationship at all. So even if BMW had completely taken over the Williams team, that toxic atmosphere would still have been there. that wouldn't have completely disappeared.

And you know, you raise a good point, Harry, that, you know, the financial crash would still have happened. Would it have happened any differently? Of course, we have to remember that they would have been overtaking a Williams team rather than a salber team. Of course, there's a, you know, they managed to turn that salmer team into a car that was good enough to win a race and arguably could have won one or two more. What could they have done with Williams?

Could they have done even more? I'd say, yes, you know, alternative histories is very difficult. but yes, I think at least had the potential to win more races than that. Would it have been enough for a championship? I don't think so. Would it been enough for a long-term relationship? Again, I sort of lean towards I don't think so. But yeah, it feels as if that was their last real chance to be championship contenders.

From there on, it was a tough road, really. And just to briefly sort of chat on, Sam, do you have any sort of first memories of Williams, of course, they've been around ever since we've been F1 fans. Yeah, the first major Williams memory I have, this is my actual living memory. I've got favourite memories that I've kind of watched when I grew up. My first actual living memory that I can kind of semi be aware of is the moment where when Jackie Ix didn't take a victory with Williams. Go watch another episode if you want to know where that reference comes from.

is actually where the Schumacher Vilnur crash. That's my first kind of semi-conscious memory. You know, the leg break, the championship decider, Vilnur winging due to the collision. That was my first proper moment of being like, wow, you know, this is Formula One. That's the first season. I think I was consciously aware.

I was like maybe two and a half down to three at that point. So, you know, you're still little, but I was just aware of it. And that was a pretty big moment. Formula One anyway. So that's my first actual memory. A couple of favourite memories. Re-watched the 1987 Silverstone Grand Prix. Obviously, the Manxel P-K fight that went on was absolutely amazing.

If you haven't seen it, go and watch that Grand Prix. It's incredible. And obviously, Manxel in 1992. I've got a massive Manxel fan, but he was dominant in that car. He was absolutely superb in that car. They built some fantastic car in the late 80s, early 90s. what a season for a Brit, which is always nice to see. So, you know, some fantastic moments in their history,

fantastic tribes that they've had in their line up. So it's a shame that they're not going to be there anymore. But you're interesting here that you guys as the listening think. That's how in the comment. Yeah. Any first memories of Williams, Harry? I can't remember first memories. I have a couple of personal memories.

One being, I was an am, a massive Schumacher fan, Michael, not Ralph. Who? What? Well, it will love Ralph. But my dad used to wind me up because, you know, back in the day, Montoya used to give Schumack a good run for his money. So my dad bought me a Williams jumper. I refuse to wear it. And I never wore it. So sorry, Dad.

And then another memory also involved with my dad, so big up Jonathan, represent, was Silverston, 2015. And we were sat in the grandstand. and Felipe Massa absolutely mugs the Mercedes off the line to take the lead and the 199 and 199,999,000 people were silent apart from one person, which was my dad who was a massive win. It was what, he was beaming that Felipe Massa was winning. So, yeah, a couple of those person ones. I mean, Maldonado winning in Spain, 2012, that was six.

What a moment. Extraordinary day. Yeah. That doesn't happen. I mean, the next time that that. really happened was a couple of weekends ago in Monsa with the Gazley. That doesn't happen very often in F1. So yeah, that's not to stand that one. Yeah. I just think now sort of eight years on, over eight years on from that Maldonado win, who would have thought at the time? That would be it.

That would be the last win. Seems crazy. But at least Pasta can hold on to that for the rest of his life. Well, for the Williams family at least. I'm sure the Williams team will go on to win plenty more races, I hope. In terms of first memories, of course, you know, you think back, I just remember that gorgeous red livery of the wind field and thinking, oh, this livery is going to be there forever. And then they got rid of it for some reason. I'd never forgiven them for that. That's a lot of sarcasm. A lot of sarcasm. I actually like that car. Oh, I have a day off.

Well, Woody the woodpecker on the front of it. No. Yeah, it's cool. No. Oh, I mean, I don't really have like a definitive first memory either, but I do have sort of a collection of early memories of just one Pablo Montoya ripping it up in qualifying because given our age... Big up Mr Chunky. Big up Mr Chunky. I mean, given our age at the time, obviously.

obviously the Ferraris were winning so many races at that point, at that point in their career. But one Pablo Montoya would still take it on a qualifying day. One Pablo Montoya would pick up more than his fair share of pole positions. And when you're that age, it's all about the pole position. It's all about, you know, cars, fast, fast cars. You know, you don't think about strategy of Ferrari or anything like that. So, yeah, Montoya blitzing qualifying laps form a lot of my early members.

memories of Formula One. And of course, the Maldonado one. I can't, I can't not say that. What a great, what a great win that was. But yeah, I think overall, next chapter for Williams. Let's see what they can do. Obviously, it is sad what has happened. And, you know, as Sam has said, we'd love to hear your memories of Williams in the chat,

whether that relates to the team or indeed the family itself. Moving on to the Ferrari Driver Academy of the two. 22 drivers in the F2 Championship in 2020. Five of them are Ferrari Driver Academy members, Juliano Alessi, Marcus Armstrong, Robert Schwartzman, Callumilett, and Mick Schumacher. And speaking after the Tuscan Grand Prix, there are a further three weekends to go to six races until the season is wrapped up. And as of right now, Ferrari Driver Academy members make up three of the top four spots.

Mick Schumacher leads the way with 161. Calamilat is his nearest challenger with 153 and Robert Schwartzman is in fourth on 140. So looking at Hass and Alfa Romeo and weather seats will be available there, Sam, do you think there's an opportunity for any of these drivers? I have said it before and I'll say it again. There will be at least two of those drivers across Alfa and Haas, and I'd be shocked if there isn't three. The crop of drivers that those Ferrari B sides essentially had, you know, Hasse running with Grojean. and Magnuson both need to go and Alfa Mayer running with

Kimi Reichen and Giovanni Giovanni, who's Giovanni? Who's Giovanni? Who's Giovanni? Giovanni, there you go, or Giovanazzi as a certain commentator likes of calling him. Which is awful, by the way. Don't condone that. I wouldn't be surprised if all four

don't get re-signed for next season because they're all really bad now. Kimmy Rikin, The only reason he be stuck around for is because I've experienced you to maybe building a car, to helping them develop the car further in a season that isn't going to change much. So that might be helpful. But equally, in a season that isn't going to change much, having F2 drivers coming when the cars are almost identical, might be a good thing. It might be a nice stepping ground to get in for the new era start, so there's new developments, new regulations.

And I would love to see Schumack had come up. I love to see I lot come up. I'd love to see Shortsman come up. and the rest if possible. They're all very big talents. I think a lazy maybe has been a little bit hard done by with the car that he's being dealt with and the team that he's got with him at the moment.

But he has not showed the same level of talent that the other ones have shown so far. But for me, at least those three in the top four should be making that step up. And I'd like to see either a Perez in one of those cars alongside them or a Holkenbergh alongside one of those guys as well. And I think it could be really exciting. But I think they deserve it.

They have clearly shown that they could do what they need to do. And that F2 Championship, if you're not watching it, is super exciting. Get involved for the last six races. What do you reckon, Harry? Do you think there's an opportunity for these guys? Yeah, I think there will be two spaces available in Hasse and Alpha, one in each team. I think Kimmy will stay another year. I don't think they'll want to keep him.

And I think Hasse won't get rid of Magnuson. and there'll be a space there as well. I mean, I would love for these two teams to mix it up and bring in two fresh drivers, but that's a massive risk. And especially if you consider Hasse, who, you know, they need some sort of continuity to help develop that car. Yeah, I think there's two spaces. The problem is I think there are at least three drivers,

I lot Schumacher-Schwarzman, who all probably deserve a space. So there's going to be one who misses out. I think it may well be Schwartzman just on the basis that he's younger and they might want to give him another year in F2 Eilot and Schumacher are doing their second year so on that basis you might say Schwartzham needs to do another year as well

but then you run the risk of the written space having said that if they keep Kimmy for next year 2022 Kimmy will be at least 103 so that he may decide to retire then in which case you can bring Schwartzman into that alpha Yeah, I think one of them is going to be disappointed. Whether it gets based off the championship or not, I don't know. I mean, Schumacher, because of who his dad is,

stands a good chance of getting one of those seats anyway. But to be honest, as we said, he's leading the championship now. He's shown that he's got the on-track performances this year. So I think he's probably going to be in one. Ilock could well be the second one, in my opinion. I think he's driven really well this year. So, yeah, but who knows? things can change really quickly.

As we've seen in F2, it's a mad, mad championship. And I echo Sam's thoughts, if you're not watching it, get up a bit earlier on a Sunday and watch it, because it's a lot of the time more interesting than F1, just saying. And they can do safety car restarts around Mugello as well, if that's a reason to get involved. Yeah, like you say, I echo that completely. Focusing just on Mick Schumacher for the moment.

And I've seen quite a few times that he, people seem to think he is just the name and nothing else. I would definitely argue that that's not the case. Would you agree with that, Sam? Now, this is a really difficult debate, isn't it? Because he arguably has had a way paved for him in motorsport, due to who his father and his family links are. Yes, of course, that definitely helps.

But at the same time, results speak louder than anything. And if Mitch Schumacher was finishing 20th, every single race, and never got a wing, never scored points, never did anything, constructed with his career, then there's only so much you can argue about a name. Now, in F3, it took him two seasons, and then he won it, and it seems like it's a bit of a trend

that Mitch Schumacher has to develop, has to come into his own, has to understand the car and the championship a little bit. And there's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with it at all, if you can kick on. And from what we've seen from Mitch Schumacher, he has the talent to kick on.

He's started slow this season, and throughout the entire time, he's built and built, and he got his first wing, which is fantastic for the youngster, and how he leads the championship. He had a great time in Wigella. He started, I think, 16th place in the feature race

and finishing fifth, which is brilliant, great turnaround. I generally think the guy has got a longer talent. Do I think he's going to be a multiple world title holder and come close to his father? Unlikely, especially because he's linked to Ferrari and Ferrari going the wrong way big time. But then again, Michael did the same thing,

in the late 90s. For me, I do think he will be a successful Formula One driver. I do think he will gain the sponsorship. I think he'll always be appealing to teams because of the name. I hope he's a race winner. I hope he gets a title fight. But for now, he definitely deserves a spot in one of those teams at the moment. And he deserves a long-term career currently in motorsport.

Because he's better than a lot of people around him. And he's better than a lot of people giving credit for. Schumacher is not just a name. The guy can pull out results. What do you reckon, Harry, to the Schumacher, is just a name argument that is made? Yeah, I'd completely echo Sam again. I don't like agreeing with Sam, as everybody knows. Echo, echo, echo.

Yeah, look, I think undoubtedly he has been helped by the fact of who his dad is, although to be fair to his junior career, he didn't run race under the Schumacher name, although everyone knew who he was. And if he had been another driver, would the teams have let him have two seasons to get up to speed? Who knows? but having said that, he has been a bit of a slow burner, but he has proved in both F3. The similarities between his F3 and his F2 seasons are remarkable

in the way that he didn't, you know, he didn't do very well until the second, towards the second half of the second year. And that was the same in F3 as it is an F2 now. So, yeah, weird one. But that's just obviously the way it works. He just builds in confidence and, you know, comes on song towards the end of the second year.

So, yeah, undoubtedly he has talent. And I don't think he has the same natural abilities as his old man. I don't think anyone's saying that. But I think he's got a fair bit of his dad's dedication, his work ethic, to make up for it. He seems to be pretty studious in that sense, which will go a long way if he gets an F1 seat. So, yeah, undoubtedly the name has helped. but he is in that F2 seat on his own merit, despite what Dan Tickham thinks.

I think being Richard Tankram. Exactly. Yeah, so as you both referenced in terms of the opportunities that are there for these drivers coming into F1, there could well be up to four. I agree with you, Harry, that I think two seems likely. I'd say one or two. you know, Magnus and C is definitely not secure.

Grojean C is definitely not secure. Gerozian seat is definitely not secure. Reichenen, I think Alpha do want Reichenen back, but of course we don't know what he wants to do. So none of those four are set in stone. So there are going to be opportunities for these guys somewhere, or there is going to be opportunities for someone somewhere, whether they end up taking the likes of Holkenberg or Perez remains to be seen.

I think all three of them are very close in terms to how talent, they are and what level prospects they are. To be honest, I don't think any of them are A-level prospects, so to speak. I don't think any of them are in the George Russell, Charles, Charles, LeClair, Lando Norris territory of progression. You have to remember that, you know, especially in the case of Shao LeClaire and George Russell, they were able to win F3 and F2 at the first time of asking. With Schumacher and Islet, they did not.

not do very well in their first year at an F2. Schwartzman, of course, is in his first year, and he is looking towards the championship. So maybe he's more of a prospect in that sense. But I would put these, or I would categorize these guys much more closely to the likes of Albin and Gassley and Ockon rather than the likes of Russell and Norris and LeClair. That's just my two cents on that. In terms of Mick Schumacher, I would agree that he is much more than the name. And I think his surname is a blessing and a burden, almost an equal measure, really.

The blessing comes in that he has. He's going to get commercial opportunities. I think that other drivers won't have. He's more well known than any other F2 driver. And, you know, in a dead heat, you know, there are going to be plenty of F1 fans who want to see the Schumacher name, and that will work in his favour if needed. But I feel as if there is this lazy narrative. that because he has this surname, he's getting all these opportunities.

But he has earned everything that he has got in his motorsport career so far. There has not been an occasion where he has moved up to the next tier without him deserving it. If you think back to, because he was in, you know, in F4, he finished 10th place in his first year of F4. You know, if he had such an opportunity because of his surname, he'd probably progress straight to F3. He didn't. He did another year of F4, improved, got second place. And then he started on that sort of not very good first year, very good second year pattern. In F3, didn't do very well in his first year of F3. He didn't go up to F2 as a result of that. He did another year of F3 and he earned his spot in F2 by winning that championship. Similarly, F2 last season, he finishes 12th. No opportunity to move up to F1. He goes back and he's first in the championship now. So in terms of opportunities, yes, he might get some later in his career. career, but I really do believe he has earned everything that he has got so far. I think Schumacher has the potential to be a consistent Formula One driver, and he's been extremely consistent this year. He's only been out of the points in three races to this

point. If you compare that to Robert Schwartzman, he's been out of the points in seven occasions. So very consistent driver. My consumer Schumacher is that he has only claimed one victory. And his first feature race win came out Monza. He did win one last season as well, but I believe that was a sprint race win at Hungary. So, yeah, his lack of wins concerns me a little bit, but his consistency is definitely a plus point and will serve him well if and when he gets to F1. I can't believe what I'm saying this, sorry, just about Schumacher.

I can't do I'm saying this, but age? I mean, he's 21 now. And I can't believe that 21 almost feels like it's old to come into the sport. But we looked at Latifu, and he came up, and people were saying he's too old. last it, he's hanging his time, his at his moment, doesn't deserve the chance. I think there's see if he's getting better and better, but I see their point, if you look at the likes of the Stapin on Norris, is Mick too old? He's coming around to being 22,

and by the time that if he does get a drive this coming season, the season will start when he is 22 years old. That's only a year younger than max. So do you think that maybe is a hindrance? I think that's just the how it's gone now. I think that's across the board, really, because I don't think Mick Schumacher is old in the sense of his people that he's around in F2. You know, Stroll and Vastappen coming into the sport at the ages they were, that was what you could do back then. Obviously, the rules were changed after sort of Max Vastappen came into the sport. So I don't necessarily think he is too old. He's, you know, it's 21.

Callum Isle-It's 21 as well. Robert Schwarzenman turned 21 today. So happy birthday, Robert Schwartzman. Happy birthday, Mike. But, yeah, I think nearly all of the drivers are in that 20. T-21 bracket. It's only really sort of Lungard

I think is a bit younger than that. He might be 18-19. But yeah, I don't think it's too much of a concern, to be honest. Just looking at the other

two drivers as well because, Calamilat's an interesting one. He's been great in qualifying this year. Could be very useful. We know how important qualifying is in F1.

And in my opinion, even though he's not winning at the moment in terms of the championship, he's been the best driver this year. And Robert Schwartzman, I think of all the three, I would agree that he probably needs that one extra year, just because he does have only one year of F2 experience. But, you know, if you look at one thing I do quickly want to bring up, actually, with Robert Schwartzman is that, you know, they have feature races and sprint races, obviously, in F2. Feature races are much more representative of what they're going to see when they get to F1. And if you were to just add up the points on the feature race totals alone, Robert Schwartzman would be winning the championship.

So I would say that that is a plus point for him. But yeah, I would agree that all three of them are deserve a chance in F1. I don't think they are that A-level prospects, but I think they have the potential to be solid Formula One drivers who have long careers. Something about I lot. I really like Callum I lot. I think he's a fantastic driver. But for some reason, it feels like he hasn't got marketability

or he hasn't got that desire from the teams that maybe you're going to get. I feel like Ferrari will just not put him in their car. For some reason, I feel like he just won't go in that car regardless of what happens. Which feels like a shame because I think he's turning into one of the best young drivers we've seen for a while. I think he probably is the crop, the best of the crop that are coming through at the moment. And maybe you won't get that drive due to his name. I think, Schwartzman has the Russian link, which will drive a lot of investment. Schumacher with Schumacher.

So I think Eilat might end up missing out, which would be a shame. I think Eilat will miss out just because Ferrari will never. hire another British driver ever again because of Eddie Irvine. So thank you, Eddie. I'm kidding, Big Ed. Don't worry. Should we move on to some Elbeys? Big Ed? Let's do some Elbeys awards. Well, thank you for coming here today. Live on podcast on Spotify. I'm Colin Quidditchworth. Are you here for the late-breaking Excision Award? Now, over to our host, thank you for your name.

Yes, thank you ever so much. Whatever the hell your name was, we are going to crack on with the LBs. We're nine races into the season of the 17 we're going to get in total, or at least how that's planning out at the moment. We're going to give out of some awards. So we're going to start with the MVP Award, the most valuable player, also known as the Alex Young Award. Who are you going for here, Sam?

It's between three drivers for me. I've got the golden envelope in my hand and Sam Sage Award on it. And we're going back to Clive. Then not that these are. Pierre Gassley, Max for Steppen, and Lewis Hamilton. And essentially, Lewis Hamilton's got it because he's been ridiculously good pretty much since the very first race. Even in that awful race with Silverstone, he managed to make the same result as Bottas work, got past from the same strategy, and then just drove off into the distance.

He's managed his tires brilliantly. He's gone through so many difficult Sangares. Look at Magello, for example. He just dealt with it so well. But Garza, he's been fantastic. He's really coming to his own in the last four or five races. And, of course, picked up that wing. And the staff who's been the only man to challenge.

And you've got to take your hat off to him. Someone who's so young in a car that really, in Albon's hand, isn't that great. He's doing a fantastic job. So for me, it is Hamilton, but there have been so really good drives this season. Who are you plugging for here, Mr. Reed? For a bit of variety. I don't disagree with Sam until there, but I'll go with Max for MVP. I don't think that Red Bull should be anywhere

Well, it shouldn't be in between the Mercedes At any points this season, let alone win a race. Yeah, he's just the... When his car works and he doesn't get punted off, he is the thorn in Mercedes side, particularly Bottas's side. Yeah, I think he's been mega impressive continuing that form from last year.

And in terms of form for the season, him and Hamilton, I'd say are on a par, and both have been mega impressive. So I'll give my MVP to, it's the Max Verstappen Player Award. Very good indeed. Very good. I don't disagree with anything that's been said. I am going to go for Lewis Hamilton. I know he's had a little bit less to deal with in terms of competition, but he's impressed with.

This late career Hamilton has really progressed in the last few years that he is, he's such, his race management is so much better than what it used to be and that's continued on to the into this season. And I know he hasn't got the Ferraris to deal with in qualifying anymore, but there were questions about Lewis Hamilton's qualifying performances last season and whether we were going to start to see him slow up as he gets older and this season, he's been brilliant in qualifying. So I'm going to go for Hamilton. Honorable mention, actually, I do want to put Lando Norris as an Honorable mention as well. I think he's had a really good year. So Lewis Hamilton,

and wins it for me. Let's go on to Best Race. What have you got for this one, Harry? I was having a long. I'll think about this earlier, whilst I should have been doing some work. And we've had some complete bonkers races this year. But I think the one that still stands out,

and I don't know whether I'm looking back at this very sentimentally, because it was the first race back after lockdown. And it, you know, it was one that. stage we thought we'd never get a race again this year and everything was doom and gloom and then we went to austria and race one was was a cracker and landa norris got on the podium and it was just complete carnage and that one sticks out of my mind as the best race it was um i mean austria always turns of a good race to be honest but um yeah i'm going to go with that and maybe i don't know whether it is objectively actually the best race but in my mind it's just the one that i remember from this year because

it was, yeah, it was Genesis for 2020. What about you, Sam? What are you going for? This is the thing. This season has been bonkers when it comes to races. It's hard to actually pick a bag race. I'd say pretty much the worst one going was Spain.

Classic. I mean, Hungary was all right as hungry goes. Belgium wasn't, I mean, Belgium wasn't great for a Belgian race, but it's still good. and then both the Italian Grand Prix have been absolutely bonkers, both the Oscar Grand Prix, are absolutely bonkers,

both the Great British Grand Prix were absolutely bonkers. For me, just because I've never seen it before, Hamilton going across the line with three wheels around Silverstone and then Bottas off just before and the absolute drama that was going on,

that for me, had me jumping around the room. I mean, I do that regularly anyway, but that really had me on Springs. It was absolutely fantastic. But generally, about four other races are about 1% behind it. It's been such a fantastic season for racing. I am going to agree with Harry Ead. I'm going to go with the first race of the season.

Even taking sentiment... Wow, that's a difficult word to say. I know. Sentimentality? Sentimental... That's got a word. Sentimental value. Even taking the emotion out of the...

event. It was a great race. I think Bottas versus Hamilton was quite fun. You know, Hamilton staying within Bottas for about a second or so. That was close action. Albin had the chance to potentially win the race. And then obviously the crash with Hamilton happened. LaClair made some epic late progress in that race. And obviously, that was the birth of last lap land, though. Not the actual birth, but the birth of the nickname, at least. So, yeah, I'm going to go with that one. Sam, who has been your biggest letdown? And we're talking driver here.

Oh. I had been written down for this. I'm not a driver. Hang on a second. I can say that again. Go on. Say I had... What?

What am I saying again? I had been written down for that one. That's gone well. I can cut that bit out. Yeah, that was terrible. Okay, I'll go cut from here. Biggest neck down on the driver. I had been written down for that one.

But quite honestly, I think it pains me to say it. Sebastian Vettel has been, if you look, I mean, okay, upgrades go to certain cars first. You might have preferential treatment due to the class thing at the team, but as a four-time world champion, you're not meant to be that far off of your teammate

on a regular basis, and I'm so glad he might start getting his egg screwed on next season, now he's got a contract lockdown. Because he is in the clouds, he's on the beach, she's having absolute barging, he's minding, he doesn't not care anymore about that Ferrari team, but he is being shockingly bad. When Lecler is able to qualify in the top five and six in Q3, and he's scraping through Q1,

there's something wrong there. And for me, Vettel need to get his act together and all guns blazing next season, please. What are you going for, Harry? Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Vettel too. I don't blame him. I hoped after the contract, you know, it was announced that he was not being kept on by Ferrari, that maybe we'd see Seb just not care about the team go for it all by himself. But I think Seb's gone the other way.

And I know the car doesn't seem to agree with him. but he's just checked out. I said this last week. He's mentally checked out. And, you know, he's just waiting for the new team, the new environment. So I kind of don't blame him. He was shafted a bit by Ferrari. But at the same time, he is to the four times world champ.

He's had a couple of good performances this year. But, you know, consider Mugelo qualifying, he was, yeah, absolutely spanked by LeClaire in qualifying. So, yeah, it's Sebastian Betel, but I have confidence that he'll regain his mojo in next year. I'm going to go with Alex Albin. He put in a few encouraging performances at the end of 2019, and I mean that competitively with Max Verstappen. And this season, it just hasn't happened.

I know he was unfortunate with that race in Austria, but outside of that, it's been a bit of a struggle for him. I know he did get his first podium last time out. he went about as long a way around doing that as he possibly could. But there have just been too many instances this season where he's been so far off the pace, both in terms of qualifying and in the race. I don't remember a situation where Albin's been within about three tenths of this happening qualifying. And in the race, it hasn't even been a question.

So I thought he might make some more progress this season. I thought after a few encouraging signs at the end of 2019, 2020 would be the opportunity for him to press on. Hasn't really been the case. so I've been a bit disappointed in that respect. Race for the simps. Well, this one should be short and sweet. Big is let down, but we're talking now about a team.

Harry, what are you going to go for? I shock you here, lads. I'm not going to go with Ferrari. What, really? Oh, I am shocked. I actually am shocked. I am. Because, him here, we knew after winter testing that they weren't going to be good. And yes, they've exceeded our expectations

of badness, that is true. I mean, they're really bad this year. But we knew, you know, already back in February, I think we already knew the writing was on the wall that they weren't going to be fighting for the championship. You know, before Australia, I remember we were talking about whether they could beat the racing point.

Obviously, they can barely beat at Williams on some track. So, yeah, my biggest letdown, I think, is going to be Red Bull because I think the hope was there this year that maybe they could take it to Mercedes and Vastappam, you know, he was in the form of his life, best form ever,

Red Bull had a solid car at the end of last year, the relationship with Honda was blossoming, and just whether that's Mercedes taking it up another level or Red Bull not extracting it enough out of the car and, you know, the Honda has broken down a couple of times, I think. Yeah, the biggest letdown is a strong one, but they're the ones I'm just a bit like, we had so much hope in you, Red Bull,

and you've not quite delivered. You delivered one race win and the Stappan's driving the nuts off it, but you've not quite delivered what I hoped. So sorry, Red Bull. And now let the Ferrari bashing go. We're now just going to have a quick excerpt from Obi-1 Canobi, who's got something to say on this.

Ferrari, sorry, Red Bull. You are the chosen one. You were meant to beat Mercedes, not lose to them. You have McGregor's got on the stage. Security. Yeah, sorry, this is Clive. Can we get security onto the stage, please? Youa McGregor has gone mad.

Special guest on today's podcast, Ewan McGregor. Cheers. It wasn't actually a terrible impression. Cheers, yeah. Well, then, Ben. I mean, Ewan. Sam, biggest disappointment or biggest letdown for a team this year? You and what are me?

I am also not actually going to go for Ferrari because I also thought they were not going to be great and yes, it is surprising that they are that bad but I was expecting a drop. What I wasn't expecting was racing point to not be anywhere near the level they thought they would be. I thought they'd be up there pushing Red Bull every single race. I thought Perez, this would be the season

where he would be scoring podium after podium. after podium, they will be fighting regularly for the top three or four spots, much like what Red Bull were doing last season, but now Rebel will have a new fighter where Ferrari had gone and Racing Point were there, and they're not. They've got a copy and paste version of one of the best cars at Formula One have ever seen, and they just can't seem to make anything of it. And it is a real letdown. I thought we were going to have a new team up there, and we don't. And Perez is driving well. Stroll hasn't fully come into it. He's doing better, but I don't think he's hit the, you know, his stroll.

And honestly, sorry, sorry. Yeah, so I expected more for them, and I'm a bit disappointed. Well, I haven't completely lost my marble, so I'm going to go with Ferrari here. I mean, I know we thought they were going to be a little bit worse off than last season, but Carb, they've struggled to get out of Q1.

Yeah, for me, it has to be Ferrari. I thought that they were going to drop to third and I know I think Harry you predicted they're dropped to fourth but I know they're still technically in that fight but it's not going well for them is it? I'm going to go with Ferrari here. Who has been, Harry, your biggest surprise,

positive surprise that is, in terms of a driver this season? I am going to go for no, I'm going to go for Lando Norris. I know he gave him MVP. And he, we knew he was quick last year, and he had a good of first season F1, undoubtedly. But he just seemed to step up to another,

an even bigger level than I thought he was going to in his second year of F1. He's really, really impressed me this year. And the maturity within, you know, he is a walking meme outside of, the car. But inside the car, he's so mature already and

it is like a cracking race driver. Just make good sensible moves in the race. You don't often see him bin it. And I know he's been in practice in Mijello, but that's practice. He doesn't make silly attempts and, you know,

crash into people. Yeah, I think a big surprise for me. Surprises, I'm not surprised that he's good, but I'm surprised at the level he's achieved this year. So Landon Norris for me. What about you, Sam?

Very much down the same vein, really. He was up there with MVP, but the biggest surprise is Pierre Gazley went from crashing down at Red Bull, and I was one of the people that were shouting loudest about how he's not doing enough. He's not giving the performance of Red Bull need. He's not delivering close enough to match for Staff

and getting him out of that drive. And I hope this is, been the right thing for him. It feels like it has because without pressure, without that toxic environment, the guy is driven his absolute socks off, hasn't he?

He's got a race wing. There's only, what, four race winners now this season? Hamilton, Bossast, Mustafa, Gazzley, yeah. And, you know, the fact that out of the Red Bull family,

the two guys that have won Rastapen and Gassley, is what to me is incredibly surprising. The guy, okay, got a little bit lucky on the strategy call with the red flag, but he held it off in a car,

it is traditionally slower. He's been great in qualifying, pretty much all season. I won't clear apart from the Jello. But he's thrashed his teammate, Daniel Cavilliat, who's no slouch. I really do think that Gassley

has come into his own. And if a team has an empty seat, they should be looking at him because I don't think he should go back to Red Bull, and I think he needs to get out of that Red Bull family, and if he could get himself

into a drive that maybe can progress in the long run, maybe after Danny Rick has enough of McLaren in a few years' time, he could go there. I don't know. I really think there's a lot potential for him if you can continue with this mindset and this form. He's really shocked me this

year. I'd be really pleased. Yeah, I had two names in mind for this. And since one has already been said in Pierre Gasly, I'll go with Lance Stroll here. I mean, Lando Norris, by the way, is that a great season? But I always thought he had that in him. I always thought he was capable of something like this. Lance Stroll's had a really good year, though. I've been impressed for him. Not impressed enough to think that he deserves that seat ahead of Perez. But I think it's definitely been his best season so far. He's in sixth place at the moment. And he's had two pretty unfortunate DNFs as well. The one, obviously the most recent one in Mugello, he was on course for probably fourth place there. So that's another 12 points that would have seen him up a position

or two. And that first race in Austria before he had a few issues, he was fighting well within the points there as well. So I think Lance Stroll, without those two unlucky DNFs would probably be fourth place overall. Yeah, he's just qualifying has been. much, much better this year. I was uncertain of when if at all that qualifying pace would come out and it has this season to an extent. And in the race as well, he is starting to improve there as well. So, you know, we've always said those great starts, they need to be complemented by other skills in terms of driving. Those other skills have been more prominent this year. So I'll go with him. And who has been your biggest surprise in terms of a team, Harry?

I'm going to go with Renault. Renaud. Renaud. Yeah, I think they need the results of having, but they, yeah, they surprised me. I didn't think, after last year as well, was a pretty disappointing year for them. This year, they've been really on the pace. And, yeah, not at every race. But even at Magello, as I said, I thought they were going to be poopy, as I said, in last week's podcast.

Ricardo went on. I wrote quote. Yep, direct quote. Ricardo mulled me off and then almost got a podium. Yeah, Renner had a much better season and I didn't think they, I thought they'd be in a mix, but yeah, they've excelled my expectations. Most surprising team, Sam. I'm going to go for their fellow engine user as to what Harry suggested. And I'm going to say McLaren.

Now, McLaren were looking like they're on the up, but I did. not expect them to be as on the up as they were in securing multiple podiums. I mean, it is fantastic to have them finally on there numerous times throughout a season. But Lando has just been brilliant. Science has been consistent as always, although he's been pretty unlucky with the car once again. The team is really proud of the back. Their culture there is fantastic. They really look like they're going down more of a Sagi's route in culture.

They're open-minded, fun, supportive, helpful, you know, that camaraderie that you want to see in an F-1 team, They are really nailing that. And Zach Brown has done brilliantly from a marketing perspective to secure them so much investment, so much sponsorship, so much worldwide viewing, such as their partnerships with IndyCar and whatnot. I am generally chuffed with how McClellan have come along.

And I am currently, I think consistently seeing them as the third best team in Formula One at the moment. That might change, obviously next season when the regulations are almost exactly the same. But for me, this has been a really, really good comeback for them. And it's the right path I want to see them on. and they're finally getting there, and it is fantastic to see them fighting for programmes on a regular basis.

Yeah, I'd say both of those are fair enough. I'm actually going to go with Mercedes here, which I guess answers the question of Red Bull and Mercedes. I thought they were going to be close this season. That hasn't been the case. So you can either say, like you have Harry, that you've been disappointed with Red Bull, and I have to an extent. But there is the flip side of that, that I've been surprised that Mercedes have yet again made that jump. and I know technically, I mean, I shouldn't be surprised given what Mercedes has been able to do over the last few years.

But yeah, I really thought this would be the season where it narrowed up slightly and that just has not been the case. Seven of nine wins to this point for Mercedes and let's face it, the win at Monzer, not taking anything away from Ghazley, of course. But if everything went to plan there, Mercedes would have won that as well. The only one that they haven't won on Pace and Pace alone was that 70th anniversary Grand Prix. Max Verstappen's done his best. I think he's done a tremendous job just to keep, just to keep Bottas in check, let alone beat him in certain races.

But even that hasn't been enough on a lot of occasions. So, yeah, I'm going to go with Mercedes here. And the most important award of the evening, the one they all want to win. It is the damn, I'm regretting moving to Ferrari in 2021, Memorial Award. And the nominees are Carlos Sines.

Yay! Carlos Sines Yes! Carlos Sines and Alex Jung. Boo. Don't be boo, Alex Young.

Can we kick him out? I actually have a serious answer or to this question. Go on. this is nerdy, the press officer, and she got a great name, Sylvia Hoffer, Franjapan.

That's my favorite game of the week. Fantastic. Worked to Macca since 2010 to the end of 2018. Endured the really hard times of the Honda relationship and then moved to Ferrari as their press officer at the start of 2019. She's up there with Carla signs to win the damn I regret moving to Ferrari. She's had an absolute frang Japan A complete French Japan

I just want to play the Curb Your Enthusiasm theme on repeat Good goodness me That's tough Who are you going for for this award Sam I think I'll go for the smooth operator Because this move really wasn't that smooth Unfortunately

The man is going to be looking at the back of his old car unless Ferroo make a monumental jump, Carlos Seinfantz can have a really difficult time, especially in a team that is completely centred around Charles LeClerp. Alex Jung snubbed again. Sorry, Alex. I'm sorry, Carlos. I'm sure it will turn around in 2022.

We've got faith. It will work out, buddy. But I think we'll leave it there for the LB Awards, if you wouldn't mind, Harry, doing the honours of the Exist. music. Well, thank you for tuning once again to the LV awards here on the LB podcast here on Spotify. If you've been tuning our host, Benjamin Hawking and all his absolute idiot for Susan,

he likes to say, let me just subscribe. If you drop, the club feels one, I remember, keep breaking light. That is absolutely sensational, although I think the primary reason people will subscribe is not what I'm saying. That should not be a pulling in point from our perspective. But anyway, Elby Awards. We'll do another set at the end of this season. Don't you worry.

They'll be back. And we will be back next week as we prepare for the next Grand Prix. Where are we going next, lads? Ugh. Well, we're going on a car park. Great. Yeah, that's right. We'll be in Sochi.

We'll be previewing the Sochi Grand Prix on our next podcast. Until then, Sam, if you wouldn't mind, do any honors and getting us out of here. Well, if you've enjoyed the chat, between the three of us and of course you and McGregor and Clyde popping along for the fun then do share the podcast do review it, do come and speak to us on Twitter at Elbreaking. If you happen to join us over on YouTube as well

that would be lovely. Watch the videos, like them, subscribe, comment. It really means a lot to us and we will be back as we said next week for the Russian preview. In the meantime, I've been Sandy Seed. I've been Ben Hawking and I've been from Richie O'Bar Batsar and remember keep breaking late. part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.