The Lazy Genius Podcast - #1: How to Embrace Change with Emily V. Gordon

Episode Date: May 10, 2016

Emily is a therapist turned comedy writer who has been through more change than most of us experience in five lifetimes. If you've ever wondered what it's like to take a big (or little) leap when it comes to changing your life, this conversation with Emily is for you. How to connect with Kendra: Instagram: @thelazygenius The Lazy Genius Collective How to connect with Emily: Twitter: @emilyvgordon Her book: Super You - Release Your Inner Superhero The movie she wrote with her husband about their early relationship that's getting crazy reviews and is fantastic: The Big Sick This podcast is hosted by Kendra Adachi and executive produced by Kendra Adachi, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Defender. With the towing capacity of 3,500 kilograms and a waiting depth of 900 millimeters, the Defender 110 pushes what's possible. Learn more at landrover.ca. Amazon presents Laura versus fruit flies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen. These little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill.

But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Hey, lazy geniuses. I'm Kendra Adachi, and you're listening to the Lazy Genius Podcast. Here, we help you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things we don't. This is Season 1, Episode 1, and my guest today, is my friend Emily Gordon. Emily is a comedy writer of one TV show, a producer of another,

a freelance writer for a ton of publications, and one of the most accepting people I know. She co-hosts her own podcast with her husband, Kumail Nanjiani, who you might know from shows like Portlandia and Silicon Valley, and she's been a guest on a ton of other podcasts. Every time I hear Emily, the person she's with is the most relaxed I ever hear them. There's something about her way that makes her feel safe, and I'm so excited you get to hear her too. Today, Emily and I are talking about change. She's a bit of an expert on it, so if you're struggling through any type of change, big or small, this episode is for you. I'm so good. I'm so good. This is so fun to get to talk to you.

I know. It's been so long. I realize that we haven't actually spoken out loud words in like 12 or 13 years. Yeah, it's got to be since like 2003. Two or three? Yeah, two or three. That's a little bit ridiculous. It's so fun. Well, I'm so, so glad you're doing this. I thought of you immediately after I got like, P.S., do you see that my microphone you don't see is resting on my stomach. It's the only way. Yeah, it's a good, yeah, if you're ever pregnant and you're trying to podcast, put your tripod on your stomach. It's really. How far along are you? I'm pretty much due anytime. Yeah, I know, for real. I'm a little like, ready for it to come out and also equally terrified. Do you guys watch The Walking Dead? Sometimes. I haven't seen it in a little while.

Okay, because the finale is this week and I am simultaneously so excited and also like, no, I can't do this because I know like all the people are going to die. That's how I feel about the baby. It's like equally so excited and also, no, let's not do this. I'm betting you'll go into labor at during, probably during the finale. And see, here's the thing is my doula is the only other person I know who, other than cause, who watches it live. And so we text like during commercials. Yeah.

And so we've kind of made the joke like, okay, the baby either needs to kind of like before the show starts so we can watch the show during labor in the hospital or it can't be mid show. Like that's just not how this goes. Yeah. And then you'll need, because then you'll need to like watch it on your phone. You'll be like one of those ladies and that the EMTs will like tell stories about later. Be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So crazy.

She wasn't even focused. on any of it. She was just watching zombies. Oh, it's too good. Is Glenn still around or no? Glenn is still around. But I don't think that's going to be the case after Sunday. I, I, and it sucks to like, that now we know all this stuff, but like the fact that he's been cast in a another TV show or I think a movie actually, he's been cast in a movie. Right. Not a great sign. Right. And this, the same thing for Norman Redis is doing like some car show. Like, he's hoping. hosting some car show. So I'm just afraid that all the people are going to die. And then I'm going to cry for six months because, you know, it's the way it goes. But it's fine. Okay. So I, you came to mind

immediately after I was reading questions that I got from lazy genius readers about like, I need help with this. And there were all these things about like, I'm moving to a new place or how do I make friends as a grownup? Or what if I want to change, jobs from like what I studied and as a grown person like you're not allowed to do that. Yeah. It's very scary. It's very scary. And you immediately came to mind because I thought, Emily's done all of these things and not just done all these things, but like radically different in some, in some ways. And so some successes and some failures as it goes. As it goes. And so I just wanted

to kind of just sort of pick your brain and have. you kind of share like what, I don't know, like what helped, like what was successful, what was a failure and just like to make people feel normal. I think that's the thing is that whenever we're hit with big things, we feel like completely out of whack. And alone. And so alone. Yeah, so alone. And so I'm just, I just want us to help people not feel alone. So that is my life's mission as well that I was trying to distill down like what is it I'm trying to do with my life here and it's like I want people to not feel alone that's so good yeah I mean you too it's great I love that so good oh good well we're like on the same page well yeah um okay so when we when we knew each other when we met it was 13 years

ago in North Carolina you were let's recap what your life was it was great you were you we met because um you were in grad school for counseling yes in North Carolina Now, that's how you met my husband and then I met you. Yes. We worked in the University Writing Center together. Which was a job that we both had. Was yours part of your program or was it a separate? It was a separate thing.

Yeah, mine was too. Yeah. I just knew I couldn't just have loans. I needed to have a job. Right. And I had several. And that was my favorite one. What a job that was.

I know. Well, I do want to tell you. I don't know if I ever told you this or not. But that was a time of my life. I had been married for like five minutes and, and going, like, I had transferred from another school and wasn't living on campus. It's a different game when you are an undergrad, but you don't, I was an undergrad. You were in graduate school, but it's a different game.

We know an undergrad who doesn't live. Yeah, I was. I was like a sophomore. It was so dumb. And so, so I just remember being, like, really alone. Because you can't make friends. It's hard to make friends when you don't live. on campus and I lived at the city and so it felt weird I don't know all the things so I just I don't know

if ever told you this but um you helped me even then not feel alone like um the writing center was was great and I liked going but after we met and after like I remember going home and I told cause I was like so I met this girl who works at this writing center her name's Emily and she's so nice to me and he was like wait like and he knew you and your name was different then and he was different then But he said your name and I was like, wait, you know her? And he said, she's in my cohort. She's so great. All these things.

And so even we both were like major fans separately and then together. And so even then you, I don't know if you knew that was your mission then, but you made me not feel alone then. And it was so lovely. Well, that's so lovely. And I love that you guys, I love finding out that you guys were married because I feel like you guys were both such lovely people than finding out that two people you do separately. Like, I would have hooked you guys up maybe had you not been on. together. See, that gives me such hope because our story's so whacked out. Then I'm like, if it hadn't happened the way it did, we never would have met. But you know what? Maybe you would

have been like plan B if it hadn't worked. That's so good. You're going to have some backup plans. It's so good. Okay. So that's what it was like 13 years ago. Yes. Yeah, I was getting a master's in couples and family. I think they called it marriage and family, which I think they've changed in marriage and family counseling and yes, working there at the writing center because I loved that place. What a great place. I felt so at home there. I loved it so much. It was a great place. It was. So what are you doing now? Let's just tell everyone. What's you're doing now? I do a lot of different things. I don't have like a regular 9 to 5 so much anymore. I am a writer primarily. And so I was writing for the NBC show, The Carmichael Show up until a couple of weeks ago. I wrote a book that came out late last year. And I have written, a movie with my husband that is going to be, we're going to start filming it in May, which is the thing that's taking up all of my life right now. It's so, okay, so I said this.

And I produce a stand-up comedy show. Sorry, that's the other part. One of my favorite, this is one of our favorite things to watch on television is the meltdown. It's so good. We love it so much. This is the thing, okay, and this is the thing that's so funny to me is like when you are at a dinner party or like you're just hanging out with someone. And the question is like, who would play you in a movie?

If someone could play you in a movie, who would do it? That's your life right now. Because the movie is about you and Kumail. Yeah. And someone's playing you in the movie. Like a real person. Like an actual actress is playing me in a movie. And yeah, my husband is playing himself because he's an actor, which I'm not an actress as much.

And a very lovely actress named Zoe Kizan is playing me. I love her. She's so great. And it's been really great kind of getting to know her. And of all the auditions that we watch, because a lot of women auditions, it just was like, there was just not, no contest. Like, she just kind of blew everybody away. And, you know, like, it's such a weird thing you go through.

You're like, well, do I want someone that looks like me? And they were like, well, then who looks like me? And then you're like, well, I don't even want to go down that path. Because it's a very weird thing. And we're having to actually change something in the movie because my, one of my backstory was that, you know, as a kid, as a teenager was kind of pretty overweight. And then we put that line in for Zoe to say. And then one of our producers was like,

I don't think anyone's going to buy that Zoe was in her way. She's like the tiniest person to ever walk the planet. And so we were like, oh, yeah, we got to like adjust it for her. Like she definitely had, you know, her own issues as a human being. And like we kind of talked about that. So we're trying to tailor it more to her experience as a person because no one's going to buy. She was mad. Right.

Right. And she's so tiny. Yeah. It's an interesting thing to kind of go through and have to adjust because it's not just, she's not playing me. She's playing a version of me that also has her in it. Right. Right. It's been a real, it's been a real. I don't know if I can say the F word. It's been a mom. I mean, you can. I'll probably have to believe it, but I'm going to leave it because it's you, man. It's the only word that I think makes sense really in this situation. So it's really fine. Okay. So here's the thing. I don't know how like. How did that transition happen? Let's go career first. Or no, no, maybe maybe it's not career first. Like what was it? Was it, did you move to California? Was that your first move from North Carolina or did you move differently? I went North Carolina to Chicago and then Chicago to New York and then New York to California. Okay. So I've been gone from North Carolina for 12 years and I've spent like two years, three years and then the rest of the time in California. So what did you, what was the impetus? What gave, like, was it a fear thing? Was it a courage thing? Was it a thing? To get out? Here's what's interesting. And I think this is, this was like the start of my journey of learning how to embrace change versus how to like let change kind of just screw you up. So I was married to a really

wonderful man named Robert for quite a while and I was married in grad school. I had actually just gotten married when I got that job. So you and I were both. kind of newlyweds in a, and like, and then he got into a graduate program in Chicago. He was applying to doctoral programs because he was getting his master's the same time as me. So he was like, okay, let's, we're going to move to Chicago. And I was very, I was very hesitant about it and very upset about it. I didn't want to move. I was pretty, like, I was pretty adamant that I didn't want to move.

And I felt, and it wasn't his fault at all. It was kind of me keeping it from it. I felt kind of dragged out of the state. I was very happy. I had a job that I absolutely love. I loved my first like real therapy job. I was obsessed with that job. I was in it all the time.

My best friend lived literally across like a pond from us. Oh, wow. My family was everywhere. Like I had such a great support system. And I kind of felt like I was yanked out of North Carolina and put into Chicago. And that that was my fault because instead of embracing it, I used it to be like, well, this is why, this is why I'm miserable now because you did this to me. And I think that without getting in too much detail, I think that was part of, because we ended up

kind of divorcing somewhat soon after moving. And a lot of that was on me for kind of like not using that as my reason to be unhappy rather than kind of embracing it and trying to find how I could be happy in Chicago. Right. But instead of going back to North Carolina, which I think a lot of my family and friends expected me to do, I decided to stay in Chicago and just kind of, because I'd always wanted to live in a big city. I'd never lived in like an apartment building and taking the train every day.

And I was like, I got to do this. I got to try this. I'm terrified, but I got to try this. Is that a pattern for you where you, like, are you a trier of new things or was that a diversion? I cultivate. It was a bit of a diversion. I usually played, you know, I think I kind of played it safe, but I also had like a rebellious streak. Like, I was like a goth kid and was like super angry and like, you know, screw society. So I had both things. But like, I was like, I need to start embracing that teenage part of me that wasn't afraid of what other people thought in my actual life,

in my grown-up life. And I didn't, I didn't do that for a long time. And so I kind of tapped into that like, who cares? Because my family was like, come home. You've gotten divorced. He's still there. Lovely man. Now he's remarried. We're on great germs. But like, come home. Come home. That's what you should do. And I was like, I don't think I can do that. I don't think I can go back. I think I have to keep moving forward. And there probably were some like dumb reasons. Like, it was hard to get out of my lease or like, I'm sure I had like very superficial reasons for wanting to stay. But I ended up staying. And it was the best decision I ever made because it kind of taught me to kind of be more independent. And I got a, you know, I got another job. I kept getting like better and better jobs in therapy. And I met Kamel and started dating him after some period of time of dating a bunch of bike messengers.

Cool. I hope that's in the movie too. Like a parade of bike messengers going by your apartment. There's so many bike locks in my apartment. So many bike locks. So good. And I'm, you know, and my parents were like, they didn't want me to live alone. And I, and they were like, I want you to live with a man.

but I was like, I'm not dating you one. So I moved in with a gay man, which they were so happy with because they were like, perfect. Right. Everything's going to be fine. And so I kind of was doing my best to like not be afraid and also kind of like embrace as much fear as I possibly could. And then in Chicago I ended up getting really, really sick while I was dating Kumal.

And I think that kind of blew up my whole world. Yeah. That kind of made me so fearless and also like so terrified. Right. mainly like completely fearless because what on earth is a job ever going to do to me. And you know, very briefly, I just was in the hospital. I was very, very sick. My survival was in question.

There may be a movie coming out about it. Maybe. But I'm, and I'm totally fine now, but that kind of, that realization, it's so corny, but it's like true. Like a brush with death and any capacity will kind of make you feel like, what am I doing? I cannot be wasting my time here. within two months of being sick, Kamala and I got married. Within four months of being sick, Kamala and I moved to New York together. And that was me just being like, I don't know what to do with my life.

I don't know what I'm doing. But he had always wanted to move to New York to make it as a stand-up. I've always wanted to live in New York. And I was like, what do we do it? Let's just do this. Let's go. So he moved to New York with a savings that went away very quickly. So quickly.

We were so poor. So poor. And I got another job as a therapist in New York and was working as a therapist in New York for a while. I love what you said before. I had never thought about this in my entire life. You said when you were talking about being a teenager and like kind of pulling the, I don't care what other people think, independence of being a teenager into your adulthood. How backwards is that? Like when you're a teenager, like it's so true. When you're a teenager, you're not really rewarded for standing out. No, you, you, and also you know nothing and you're so, like, if you're an absolute idiot. It's so, I'd never thought about that transition. It's no wonder that it's really hard to do things that make us afraid or make us different when we're grownups. Yeah. Because that behavior is not rewarded when we're like trying to figure out who we are. I also think like you're supposed to grow out of stuff like that. Like when you're a teenager, you're supposed to grow out of wanting drama in your life. Right. Which is why I think a lot of people end up getting really, are being really, really, really.

unhappy in their grown-up lives because they don't embrace that like drama is still like that's why watch walking dead that's why i watch walking death that's it's great right and i think that sense of like no i'm going to do this and i don't care if i's i like i'm i don't care what you think i'm going to do this anyway we're supposed to grow out of that but i don't think that we necessarily have to grow out of it all things being equal of like being respectful to your family and the family you've created and the and the mortgage you have to pay sure but like that doesn't mean that you can't take chances and kind of start over sometimes. Right. And I didn't get that for a long time. And clearly, I don't think a lot of people do because we're sort of stuck in in our, whether it's

like suburban, you know, Groundhog Day sort of life or it doesn't even matter what it looks like. It's different for everybody. But, but I think that's what it is. It's not a rewarded behavior. It doesn't feel like it's something you're supposed to embrace as a grown up. And so you just, okay, well, this is my life until I die. It's like, which is such a bummer. And that's, I also have to say that people that live in suburbs are like what that life is completely fulfilling. I live it and I love it. Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

It's so fantastic. But I can understand. But I know people who are so, they don't love it. Yeah. And it's a scary thing. It's a scary thing to say anything that is against the grain, so to speak. Like I wrote a post. Oh, I think you read it actually.

I wrote a post a few months ago when I found out I was pregnant about how I wasn't excited about being pregnant. Yeah. And it was. so terrifying to write because it was like, this is not what you say at all. And you're going to get so many people being like, how dare you? How do you? Exactly. And that's what I was so afraid of. But I got one, how dare you? Oh, that's amazing. Now, granted, it's not like, you know, a million people saw this or anything, but I got one, how dare you? And I got dozens and dozens and dozens of thank you for saying this because I've been wanting to say this and I didn't know how and I felt so terrible like a terrible person,

all the things. And so it really is, like fear gets in the way. It just gets in the way of so many things. Like, we're afraid of what people are going to think. We're afraid of screwing up. That was one question I wanted to ask you with like the moves and changing jobs and all of those things. Like, what's your, like, what's your failure capacity? What's your internal failure capacity? Like, are you okay with it? Did you learn to be okay with it? Like, it's pretty high these days. I think around, it wasn't until we moved to New York that I stopped. I started submitting to places to be a freelance writer and like submitting pitches to different websites. And that will really get you very comfortable with failure.

Right. I've heard that. You fail constantly. And it's constantly just people being like either they don't respond or they respond and go, no, why would I want this? And you're like, okay, thank you very much. And it hurts so bad. But it's such a, for me, it was such a big lesson to learn, like, this could hurt and be embarrassing, but you actually survive it. Like, you don't die as a result. And what an amazing thing that if you didn't die as a result, you must have gotten something out of it.

Let's try it again and see what happens this time. And that's not to say it doesn't hurt. I still am hurt when I'm rejected, absolutely. But it's more of a manageable hurt now. I'll just move on to the next place. If you don't want it, somebody else will. And that free, starting to submit for freelance writing, we moved to New York. I got a job as a therapist and was just so burnt out.

I was so, so burnt out. I think it was for me, the medical scare thing, I just was like, I kind of need to focus on me. I don't really, I just don't have the capacity to focus on clients, which is very unhealthy. Your husband's therapist, you know, like it's not good to start kind of being angry with your, like all this stuff. I was just burnt out and I was like, this is my fault. I got to get out of here. And so, Kamel ended up getting his first job. in show biz writing for, I think it was best week ever.

Remember that show? I totally remember that show. I loved that show. And as soon as he did, I just kind of quit my job and started going for freelance writing full-time, mainly because I couldn't, I wasn't being a good therapist. And I was like, I need to quit this job and either find another job or just figure out something I can do. But I got rejected constantly the first couple of years.

I mean, I've been freelance writing out. I added up for, I think it's been 10 years now. And just recently people are like, oh my God, look at this new writer, Emily. And I'm like, you can go back and see. I've been doing this for 10 years. And just now people think that I'm starting to do it because that's part of what it is too. It just slowly adds up. And you have to just keep adding little pieces of sand to your jar until it's like suddenly full.

And people are like, oh, my God, you filmed it so fast. Like, no, I didn't. Right. That's not how this happened. Right. But yeah. And so it's now I have. I have more confidence when I go into meetings, when I go into any kind of pitch, anything,

because I've been rejected so much that it just kind of stains a little bit, but it doesn't like go all the way to the core. I take what I need from the rejection and I kind of try to do my best to move on. But that only comes from attempting things that you will get rejected for. Totally. That's it. Yeah. You know, it's hearing you say that, thinking about that process and how that kind applies to anybody's situation it's like um okay so we don't make the big change or even the small changes even the you know you you didn't have to move to new york and go through what you did in order to apply for free lunch jobs like you could have done that wherever you know like it's exactly and so

there are things that you could do like there are tiny steps where you can add like a drop in the bucket a grain of sand in the jar like you can make those moves but but what we're i think what a lot of people are hoping is like where you are now, you know, like that you have like success and whatever it is that you were afraid to try. Yeah. And I think I think to tell me if it's okay to say this, but like you were telling me about the reason that we couldn't record the last time was because you had a meeting with all, everybody involved in the movie, including Judd Apatow who's producing the thing.

Yeah. And can I say who's playing your mom? Can we say that? It has not come out. Yes. I'm not going to say it. Okay. By the time this comes out, they might be out and then I'll let you know.

Right. And I can like, I'll just like add. Drop it in. Right. Exactly. Just drop it in in post. But like you had a room full of people not only like that might have been super intimidating to walk into just as a room of people.

But they were going to read your words and tell them why they were bad. Yes. That was their job. They were specifically asked to be there to give us notes. Yeah. And I'm just trying to imagine like what. What if that had been in the first kind of stretch of time, like before you had gone through all of the, like, that would have been for me, like crumbling.

Maybe would have cried. Maybe would have cried. So many tears. So like, it's just a good lesson to remember that it's not that failure makes you harder. It just reminds you that that's not where your value comes from. Yeah. And you can sit in a room and have people be like to do their time. job and to tell you how to make what you're doing better. And you're like, okay, that wasn't fun,

but no. Aw isn't something we need to travel for. It's something waiting for us in everyday life, whether in a city street or a moment with a work of art. I'm Dr. Keltner, host of the Science of happiness podcast. Join me for Cities of Aw, a special series on how our public spaces can spark awe, wonder, and enhance the quality of public life. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts. Let's make it better now. For the most part, people, I would say 99% of the time, people don't want you to fail. They want you to, they want the best, everybody wants the same thing, which is like the best version of whatever you're creating. They want like a better, you to be happier, like whatever it is. Like, no one's out to get you. You know what I mean?

Like, they're not saying this stuff because they're hoping that like it'll destroy you. And I think that was, I think that was something I kind of struggle with at first. You're like, why are they saying this to me? Like, well, they're not saying it to you to hurt you. And they're saying it to you because that's part of their job is to kind of help you get better. And just kind of remembering that. And also it was helpful. So many of the producers that were in the room, people who work on a movie and other people

were like, oh, my God, this was a table read I had for this movie that was the worst thing. Like, no laughs. Everybody was miserable. It was horrible. It got ripped to shreds. And then that movie went on to be Citizen Kane. You know what? Like people being like, like, like, people being like,

like these things can go really wrong and still everything is fine. Yeah. And also it didn't, it didn't go poorly. It was like literally two and a half hours of listening to people tell us what was wrong with the movie. And that was, and that was our job was to listen to it and take notes and then fix it, which we've then now been doing for the past two weeks. Right, right. You know, you said, and you said that no one's out to get you, it's, I keep going back to like, I feel like we revert to like our teenage selves because when you're in high, middle school and high school, that isn't always true. Everyone is out to get you, completely out to get you to knock you down as far as you can go

so they can be higher and feel better by themselves. Like, not everybody. But that's just kind of like the dues you pay when you're a teenager. And we forget sometimes that that's not of normal, well-adjusted people. That is not their goal. Yeah, absolutely. They're not trying to hear you. And that's a great thing to grow out of in adolescence is that.

idea because it's in some ways it's like so arrogant to think that like people care enough about you zero percent to be out to be get you because they don't for the most part they don't they're just there to do their jobs like the people that were asked to be in that note session were people who wanted to impress judd by giving good notes that's you know what I mean like that's part of it so like there's so many kind of levels to it have been like this isn't really even about you like and learning when it's about you and learning when it's not about you is that's a very important lesson that's good right there learning when it's about you and learning when it's not because sometimes it is and sometimes we have to you know maybe it's part of our responsibility and sometimes it's it's the other person's

issues and you know all that but that's really good that's really good to learn that you should write that in a book or something so let me ask you about when you were in chicago between after you got divorced and before you met camille how did you get over or did you have fear of like okay, I have to make friends now. I have to create this life for myself. Like, what was that like for you? That was really, that was really hard. And I, I sometimes write about making friends as an adult. And it's really hard. It's just, it's not an easy thing to do. And I think now that I'm kind of in comedy in the comedy world, it's much easier because there's just like a built-in social aspect to comedians like meeting at a certain place at night. They're hanging out. So I try to, I try to go back to what it was like for me when I was in Chicago and I didn't, I wasn't in the

comedy scene, my best friend in the whole world, who still is my best friend, is in North Carolina, not with me. I had a lot of Saturdays that were just kind of like sad, lonely Saturdays where I just was like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing right now. Like I don't have, I don't know how to do this. So I started doing, I took a lot of classes. That was one thing I did. I took dance classes. I took some writing classes. I think that might have been in New York. I took dance classes a lot and I would just chat up the girls and also realized that it wasn't like an immediate thing. We're like, hey, girls, let's go out for milkshakes after class. That did not ever happen. But it was like slowly you would like kind of get to know one girl. And then at some point,

I was like, can I have your phone number? And that was like a big moment for me. I, I, the place I worked, I worked at a mental health facility in Chicago and ended up making friends with a couple of people that worked there at work. And then that transition to be like, we were lucky. We worked in the NBC building in Chicago and there happened to be a bar on the first floor of the building. So that was a little more conducive to like as we're leaving like, does anyone want to stop and get a drink and hang out? Right. But even asking that was hard. Again, it's a thing of like you risk rejection. And if you, that's embarrassing to be rejected to hang out with people. And then it would be like, I kind of got into creating like weird outings and then inviting a ton

of people because it's a diffusion of responsibility. Nice. And it's like not just one person there. It's like a bunch of people. So I like, it would be like, flea markets on the south side of Chicago. And I would be like, we're going to go to all of them. And I would just set up like this really overproduced event. That's exactly what. It's like super way too complicated. But it was like kind of like a fun outing.

And I would, we would go to like different flea markets on the south side because nobody ever really does that. We would go to like weird little like dance performances. Like I would set up outings that were weird and kind of complicated. it on purpose because I thought that would foster like, oh, Emily's fun. Sure. Sure. Well, it's funny because I think a lot about when we make friends, especially as adults,

you try and almost you don't want to rock the boat. You want to be like just average enough. You want to be just funny enough, but not too funny. You want to be, you know, like you just want to be kind of regular and medium, but then you wonder why you're not making friends. because like no one wants to well that's not true i was going to say no one wants to be around a regular person we kind of do but like there's also this um i just remember i wrote a post about this too because i just want people to not be so afraid of making friends like um this was so funny it was

i was on the trip with our church with like high school kids i'm 34 but there are some high school kids that are so fun to be friends with i'm just tell you this i was walking we were on this big like tour bus, or not tour bus, whatever they're called, like a big greyhound or whatever. And I was walking back from the bathroom. And I heard these two girls, we were on our way home. We were like two hours from home. I'd been with these kids for a week. And I heard this girl say, well, Aragorn is way hotter than Legolas. And I stopped, slow turn. And I was like, who are you people? These are my friends. You guys are my people. And I like squatted down. And I just inserted myself into their conversation. And I was like, I know this is dumb, but like, did you just say something about Ergorne?

Because, like, I really like Erichorn. Can we talk about this? And I ended up talking to these girls about, like, movies and TV shows and books for, like, two hours on the way home. And now they're legit, my friends. Yes, they're both precious freshmen in college. But, like, it's so lovely. And I just remember thinking if they hadn't been confident enough with each other to speak with such passion about things that other people might laugh at.

And if I hadn't been, you know, granted, there were high school kids. And so it was a little easier to be like, they all think I'm stupid. Like, it doesn't matter. I can't be more stupid to them at this point. You're not risking anything. Nothing to lose. And so that allowed us to have a friendship. And so I just think, like, we go in thinking that there is so much to lose.

but everything there is to lose is really kind of arbitrary and self-imposed. And if you are able to just, not that it, like you said, it's not that it shouldn't make you feel bad or sad. Like, that's real. Like you can feel like, dang it. They didn't want to hang out with me. Okay. Like, that's hard to swallow. But it doesn't have to completely stop you from trying again or being friends with another person.

It just means that those weren't your people. You just got to keep being yourself. Like truly yourself to find your people. I also think that like, I think sometimes we as adults think that our friendships are supposed to be the same as they were when we were kids, which is like, for me at least was like an obsessive constant contact with like two or three girls that was like, oh, if we don't talk all the time, I don't know what we're going to do. Right.

And that is not what grown up friendship is. And being friends with my best friend in North Carolina, we've been friends since grad school. And we were kind of, we were really in mesh in each other's lives in like a good way. and also sometimes in an unhealthy way. And as we've grown up and both gotten married and, you know, she has a kid and kind of like gone through life, we realize like, we're not going to talk every single day. And that's okay. It doesn't mean we don't love each other.

We're not like upset with each other. And I think that's kind of helped me with my friendships now. I have two of my best friends here in town are two women that I see, I don't know, once a month. Like I will text with them. They live two blocks away also. I will text with them. Like every, you know, every third day or so. And I'll kind of see them around and like, we'll like each other's posts on Instagram.

But like actually hanging out with them, we have lunch maybe once a month, maybe every third week. And that's kind of okay. And that wasn't always okay with me. I think I would have felt stressed out and upset that like I wasn't really giving enough to this friendship. And I, that's changed as I've gotten older. I set up movie dates. See, I still do this thing, by the way. I set up movie dates all the time.

I love it. Yeah. So I set up a movie date this past weekend and 10 people showed up, which is crazy huge for our group. Like, it's insane. There were 12 people that went to see this movie together. Nice. I blew my mind. Three weeks ago, I tried to do the same thing. Literally no one showed up, not even my husband. And I went to the movie by myself. And I went to the movie by myself. It's like, it's like, there's this subtle perspective shift. It's kind of like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, there's this subtle perspective shift. It's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, there's this subtle perspective shift. Yes, you're not enjoying it with like another person. You're enjoying it like unto yourself. And it's okay to go into it being like, I wonder who's coming. And then no one comes. And then you go, oh, well, cool, I'm going to go by myself then. Like, you don't have to internalize it as this like horrible failure. You just go see the movie. Like, it's no problem. I did take a photo of myself alone and was like, hey, guys, thanks for showing off. Nice. And I think everybody was like, well, somebody will go. Maybe that's why 12 people came the last time the next time. It's because you were alone. I just thought it was so funny. I was like, well, all right.

It's so good. And it was like, I do like seeing movies alone, but that was not one that I was like planning on sing alone. So I was like, well, right then. But I do think, and I also think nerd stuff in a lot of ways helps connect people. And it's like a shortcut to like intimacy. It is. In a very healthy way. Yeah, totally. No, that's great. I've made plenty of friends that way. That's really good. And everybody can nerd about different things. Absolutely. You can be a nerd about knitting. And, find knitting nerds and go to 10 it. That's a great way of saying it. Like if you can just find that one thing that is, and that's why you need to be confident enough to say it out loud and maybe no one gets it at first. You know, like to say in a group like, yeah, all I want to do is stay home

and knit because it's my favorite thing ever and people are going to look at you like you're crazy. But there might be one person. It's like, me too. And there you go. You've found a person. But what you said to you about changing your expectations of like friendships when you're a kid and a teenager to when you're adult, there is an expectation of having the same rhythm. Yeah. And we just have to, that's just not a realistic thing. I imagine especially with kids. I mean, I don't know how. I don't know how.

Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty much impossible. We have like half a dozen. and families that will hang out with. But it's like every few months. I'm like, we haven't seen so-and-so in a while. Let's see if they're free for dinner in an hour.

Like, that's kind of how it goes. It's a different rhythm. And it feels for a while to me that felt inauthentic. Yes, that's exactly the word. Yeah. And then I just had to realize, like, they don't feel that way. They're so glad, A, they didn't have to make dinner that night. And B, they're like, oh, good, yeah, let's do that.

It's just, it's not in something. times our life rhythm doesn't always match up with our expectations of relationships. And that's okay. You just have to find a new way. Yeah. And that's okay. Well, I know you have like a big movie meeting to go to. Every, every day. Every day. Big movie meeting. So, but I do want to ask you really fast. A couple of questions. But before I do that, is there any, is there any, is there like what you've given so many good nuggets that I can't wait to like write down for my own self. But is there like for people who are afraid to make whatever change it is, whatever shift it is from whether it's small, whether it's big, job, relationship, friends, any of that?

Is there kind of like one mantra? Like you said, you distilled your life purpose down to. That took two decades. I want people to not feel alone. So like in two seconds, can you distill how to handle change? I think two things. helped me. And now I've forgotten the second. Let's go with the first and hopefully I'll remember the second. One thing. I think for a long time I would make changes. I remember the second one. I would make changes, but then be resentful of the changes or be resentful of the person who made me make the change or be resentful of the situation I was put in that made me make the change. And I think that, that really, to say poison me is overdramatic, but it's kind of true.

Yeah. It's toxic. That's a toxic thinking. It's very toxic because it can, it makes you, you don't embrace anything, you don't try to make it work because somehow you're looking forward to it failing. And I think that that kind of screwed me, I think, when we moved to Chicago because when I initially moved, I was so upset that I was being dragged there, which I wasn't. I could have not gone. I wasn't dragged there, but I didn't embrace it. And so then when Kamel and I moved from Chicago to New York, I made a very conscious effort to be like, even though we're moving again, for the second time, I moved to a different city because of what a man wanted to do. a man I was in love with. It was such a different experience because I took the time to kind of embrace it and be like,

we're doing this as a team. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to embrace this. I'm going to love it. And again, I could have not gone. We could have stayed in Chicago and it would have been fine. But I made a very conscious effort to not resent the change and not fight it and kind of go with it.

And it's made my life so, so much better. So I say that's the one piece of advice. Don't resent changes when they knock on your door, try to see what you. You can do it or embrace them. Really good. The second is, it doesn't have to be huge, crazy life-changing things. You don't go from not exercising to joining CrossFit. Like it is just not start small.

You have to make small changes and see how much benefit you get and how ultimately unscary it is and how it isn't going to kill you. And then you can make them incrementally larger, but you don't have to start huge. Like I did the first time that it was a little much for me. Right. And so I think for me learning to kind of take it in small steps, and not do this real big black or white, everything's got to change. I think it was really helpful for me.

So those are the two. So good. Such good two things. Hooray. Thank you. Love them both so much. Okay. So always ask my guess at the end.

Something you love, something you need, something you hate right now. They can be super serious. They can be like gum. Like it doesn't matter. Something I love right now is Rupal's Drag Race. It is My Haven. It is my, I love it more than anything. I was just watching last night's episode today before you and I were talking because I made

it, you get all my work done. I can sense, like when you tweet about the show, I can sense the joy through the words. So, like, it just oozes. It's so lovely. So it's got everything in it. It's got everything. So that show, especially when I've been stressed out, like I was, yesterday was kind of a tough day.

And this morning I had some stuff to do it. I was like, I think between getting work done and talking to you, I was like, I think I should have time to watch the episode and I did make me very happy. So that's something I love. Something I need right now, I need to stop biting my nails. I would be if I were you with you. I love how in the beginning you were like, I don't have a nine to five job. What came into my mind was like, yeah, you have like an 8 to 12, like an 8 a.m. to 12 a.m. job is what you have. A little bit. I've gotten much better about boundaries and like I stop work at a certain time because my first few years was like eating me alive. But right now I just bite my nails.

I need to get better about that. I need to stop biting my nails. Because I would like to get a manicure at some point in my life, and I can't ever seem to do it. Right, right. What is something I hate? Terrorism. That's a good one. There's been a lot of terrorism in Pakistan this past week, and it's been very disheartening, and I talk to my in-laws.

And there's none of my family, meaning Kumail's family, is in Lahore, which is where most of it happened. but and so I would say terrorism in all of its forms is something I hate. I it's such an interesting thing when you live in the South, which you grew up in the South. You grew up in North Carolina. Yeah. There aren't a lot of people who look different than I do. Yes. You know, like you don't really encounter that.

And so I married a Japanese man and that's like kind of different. Yeah. No, that's very different. A lot of my extended family, the first time they met him, he was like the first non-white person they'd really ever encountered. Like it was, okay, quick story, two seconds. This is my favorite cause anecdote of all times. So we are engaged. We go to this little like fried fish restaurant outside Winston-Salem.

God. So you can imagine. That's where I'm from. Right. That's where you're from. And it's like the place that is cornets. Maybe you even went there before. but yeah that's where the family that's where all of our family functions are held is a cornets oh okay

and so we're at cornets i bring cos to meet the whole family it's like great aunts and uncle it's everybody it's like 50 people in this big back room and so i take him like around i guess and my aunt duffy my aunt duffy she looks at me i was like aunt dvie this is cause is my fiance cause and she goes does he work at the cabuto And I said, no, he doesn't. And she said, are you sure his name isn't Tony? And he doesn't work at the cabuto? Oh, God.

And I said, no, he really doesn't. And then she's asked another question, like trying to, she didn't believe me. And Kaz is standing right next to me. And you know, he's like the, it is impossible to hurt his feelings. He's even killed as a mother. He's deadiest man I've ever met in my life. so he's not an ounce bothered like he just thinks it's funny but he's just standing there and i said aunt w he's right here like you can talk to him she turned two inches look at him she said so you

don't work at the cabuto i mean she just she couldn't get no ma'am i don't what was your name again and he put out his hand he said my name is cause but my stage name is tony well oh my word he thought he was being awesomely funny it went completely over her head. She looked at me with like devil eyes and she was like, you told me his name. Wasn't like, like that we had been playing her this whole time. And when we got in the car

was like, sweetheart, you can't make jokes like that. They don't understand. They're not ready. They're not ready for you. You can't do that. So like, oh my word. But yeah, all of that came from, hmm. It's a good intentioned place. That's like It is. Yeah. It is.

It is such a good intention place. They don't know. They don't know. It's just an They just haven't been around it. But I think what happens when you are around it, like when there had been things that have happened in Japan and he has family in Japan, like it just changes. Like, the more exposed you are to different kinds of people, the more empathy you're able to develop. That is exactly right. And it only helps. It only helps to be exposed to different kinds of people.

Yeah. There's no way. That's the thing that we don't have to. I'm just going to get angry if we start talking about politics right now. But that's the thing that makes me hurt, like literally hurt inside so badly, is that there aren't, there just isn't any interest in seeing people who are different than you as being as worthy as you are. Or even Americans. Right. It's so stupid.

It's like, so I, I'm so glad that Camel's family is fine. But I imagine that being married to someone who's from Pakistan, it's like that it's like it puts a, it puts like a pin in the map of like, oh, wait, this is a place. My family's here now. This is an actual place. And it's not that you didn't care about it before. It just opened your eyes to like, there are people who are here. That's why like traveling places or hearing stories about people who have gone to different countries and just the way reading the news.

Like it doesn't even matter. Like just being exposed to what's going on to different kinds of people. It just, it can only make, like you said, it can only help make you a better person. Yeah. Okay, well, go to your movie meeting. I hope that it is super encouraging and all the things. And I can't say thank you enough. This has been so fun to talk just like to talk like people.

Like actual people. This is what my friends and I say, sometimes the only times we get to talk is when we do podcasts with each other. Same is true with you. I remember you saying that to P.M., like one time you were on P. Holmes' podcast, and you're like, we haven't talked a long time. This is so fun.

It's like, oh, wow. I love this. And he lives two blocks from me also. I thought when you said that about your friends, I was like, I feel like that's true about pink, too. I feel like I remember her saying that. It's just too funny. Well, thank you. Congratulations on all the fun things that are happening.

Congratulations to you on the impending. The impending, the very, very, very impending. Oh, my word. I'm a walking station wagon with a microphone resting on my stomach, but it's cool. Okay. Thanks, Emily. Absolutely. Tell cause I said hi.

I'll do it. I'll do it. See you. Thanks guys for listening. If you are interested in connecting with Emily online, you can find her on Twitter at The Gynomite, like dynamite with a G and an O instead of an A. I'll also list all of the places and shows and anything else relevant in this episode's show notes at the lazy genius collective.com slash podcasts. We'll be back next week with Nick Flora talking about early 90s Christian pop culture. as well as giving you the serial box breakdown of current popular TV shows.

It's super fun. And if you enjoy listening to this podcast, I can't thank you enough for your support. A great way for you to show even more support is to become a subscriber. And even more than that is to leave us a review. Good, bad, it doesn't matter. But the iTunes Mafia really loves it when you say nice things about us. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week.

felt like you were living just a B or B plus life, it's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life, because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way.

We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.