The Lazy Genius Podcast - #197 - How to Navigate a Faith Crisis

Episode Date: February 15, 2021

It’s a heavy topic, I know, but I want to give some language and space around this thing that many people in the Christian faith are struggling with right now. And who better to help us with this than Erin Moon, the resident Bible scholar on The Bible Binge. Helpful Companion Links If you missed our conversation about Erin’s morning routine last summer, you can listen to it here. Learn more about Erin’s Lent Guide here. (And you can get 15% off using code LAZY) This podcast is hosted by Kendra Adachi and executive produced by Kendra Adachi, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Amazon presents Laura versus Fruitflies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen. These little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Hi there, you're listening to the lazy genius podcast. I'm Kendra Adachi and I'm here to help you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. Today is episode 197, How to Navigate a Faith Crisis. I know. You're probably like, Gindra, we have had enough heavy topics. Please, no more. And I feel that. I also want to give some space and language around this thing that so many people, we have had enough heavy topics. Please, no more. And I feel that. I also want to give some space and language around this thing that so many people. I feel that. I also want to give some more. I also want to give some more. I

and the Christian faith are struggling through right now. And the best person to do that with is Aaron Moon. Aaron is the resident Bible scholar over at one of my favorite podcasts, The Bible Binge. She is a deep diver into faith and questions and has gone through her own faith journey of sorts. She grew up Southern Baptist and now she's Anglican and she still has questions. She has taught me so much about faith and offers a really lovely space to ask questions and dig deep and to still not know things we think we're supposed to know.

So this conversation, it was birthed from some suggestions from you guys to make this a podcast topic. And I knew that I needed Aaron to do it. Last year in 2020, my episode with Aaron where we lazy geniused her morning routine, it was my most downloaded episode of the year of 2020. It was hugely popular. And so much of that is due to the loveliness of Aaron. and I think this episode is going to do the same for you.

So we are talking primarily about the Christian faith and crisis within it, but we also talk about being in the life of someone who's going through some type of deconstruction or reconstruction. And in fact, Aaron puts some really lovely language around the word crisis in general, helping us name what matters about this particular topic. It's just so good. And then be sure you stick around to the very end, where she shares a blessing or a benediction for those who are in this place. It's incredibly

beautiful and moved me. And this conversation was seriously just an absolute delight to have. So thanks for being here. Here's my conversation with Aaron. Hey, Erin. Hi, Kendra. I love that every episode that is an interview between two people begins with a hello. And they've already been talking for 10 minutes. Like we haven't been talking for 15 minutes before this. But we have to pretend like we're greedy. I know. Hello, Kendra.

What a joy that we just logged on. And it was like, let's start talking now, just now, just the second. This actual second. Oh, I'm so glad you're here, though, because I don't want to talk about this by myself. I feel like we might be too giggly right now to be talking about having a crisis of faith. Is that a good, maybe it's a good juxtaposition. It's a good energy juxtaposition. It's a balance, everything in moderation. Gosh, if you handle, if you, if you talk about faith crisis without laughing, you will die of sadness.

Like we have to, there needs to be levity. We got to lighten it up a little bit. Oh my gosh. Well, I received actually several suggestions around this topic. Struggling with their faith or having somebody in their life that is struggling with their faith and things are different than they used to be. And just like, how to lazy genius that. And I was like, well, I can't. it lazy genius it because it feels weird to lazy genius laundry and then also like you don't you're not an evangelical anymore exactly it just feels a little weird but at the same time I feel like this is a conversation that is it's happening in the periphery with like our friends sort of maybe who are like kind of talking about their discomfort about certain things you hear really intelligent people who are maybe preachers or former preachers you just hear people sort of sort of talking about things loosely, but it's like no one has actually said, hey, you guys,

it's super normal to go through a faith crisis. Here's, here's some steps or here's some things to expect or here, whatever. Now I've positioned myself to be like, this is the podcast episode. This is where we will talk about. Resource. But when I was thinking about talking about this, I was like, no, I'm not doing that. And then I went, oh, I could have Aaron on. Aaron could help me talk about that. Yes. And it was a match maiden in podcast heaven. Well, you know, you know, I, I do a lot of work on the Bible binge. And so part of that work is we have a community of people around us. And I am hearing from so many people about how they are experiencing this, this crisis of faith because of insert general life at this particular moment. You know, I don't even think I like calling it a crisis. Because I think that belies a panic. And when I'm in a panic, I don't make thoughtful decisions. I learn that. from you, but in regards to meal planning. See, this does technically work. Like, it feels like an emergency when, when you are experiencing this crisis of faith, but you have time. This is a natural

part of living a life of faith. This is, this is just an Ebenezer stone. And so I think if we can take away that panic feeling of, which I understand the panic in regards to everything that I built my life on, I don't know if I believe in that anymore. But the time, Time panic, I think, is something that we can let go of because we have time. I think that's so smart because, as I said, in our 10 minutes of talking to each other before we said, hello, I was going to name this. And I might still, I don't know what the name of this episode is going to be yet, but the original episode was going to be how to navigate a faith crisis. And I said to you, I don't love that word, navigate, because it feels like there's an end. And you said, it's not over until you die.

You're not done until you're dead. That has much better alliteration. So, yeah, it's like the fact that we are expecting this to have a timeline and a finish line is misleading. I hesitate to use this word, but it's almost like an expedition. There is a whole world out here, a whole faith world out here. And it's not that you are in it. it's that you are exploring and you are searching. And there is literally nothing wrong with that. I think it's hard because, you know, it's tied up with our communities and it's tied up with

everything we've built our lives on. And I think, you know, the feelings that you feel during a crisis of faith, whether that's grief or anger or frustration or depression or whatever, is a direct tie to how important something is in your life. So it's like, you know, being a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. Well, this is one of the things that matters. Yeah. So I think it deserves that attention and it deserves that time. And everyone deserves to have a faith that is their own. And thinking about that word expedition, I can see the discomfort around that word in terms of obviously the Lewis and Clark connotations, but history. Yeah. But also that an expedition has a positive connotation to it. And to think that you are

unsure about certain things that you believe, I was taught that that was a sign that you are actually not rooted in your faith at all. You're simple questions. Then you are sinful. Like, you can't talk to someone about a faith that you are unsure of. You have to be standing on the firmest ground before you can go into a conversation with someone because ultimately the goal of that conversation was to convert them to the same belief as yours. And you know, I think it's so helpful to remember what you just said, that questions and doubts are not sinful. Nowhere in scripture is that communicated. In fact, we often see examples of the opposite. Like, David wrote like 500 poems about his, so just very prolific poetry. You know, Job essentially gave God a job interview.

There's a whole book of the Bible that just literally talks about how meaningless everything is. Jesus questioned God's plan in the Garden of Gassad. So you just go like, guys, this is like this is not sinful. It's not wrong. It feels unmooring and it feels like you're very disconnected, but it's not wrong. And it is important, I think, for us to remember that. Yeah. And that it's not even that it's not wrong.

Not just that. It's also normal. It's healthy. It's really, really good. What if you, if you never questioned anything about, the way you were raised or about the things you were taught. Like we would all just, we know one would ever grow. Right. Exactly. So that's sort of the, I think that's a really helpful foundation in terms of that language around even the word crisis is that's why we think it's a

crisis. But we want to kind of reframe that a little bit. Yeah. In this conversation, because it doesn't have to be a crisis. Now, certainly there are, there are extenuating parts of it that do feel like a crisis, because maybe there are relationships that feel like they are in jeopardy. There are identity pieces trying to reconcile something that you have known or believed your entire life and then have a question about it and not know where to get other answers. You know, there's this unknown place of like, wait, that feels, that does feel a little bit desperate. But the actual act, the actual journey, take a drink, it really does. I think that's such a beautiful word that it is an expedition.

Like this is what it means to be a person of faith that you don't always know. And you just believe, you believe, even your belief, like your belief has to be so, so strong in like you have to know what you believe. And so if you are questioning that, then your faith is like completely gone. And so it's, I was almost just like taking the value of my own faith out. Well, if I don't believe it, then it's not really faith. If you're continuing to ask the questions, though, if you're continuing to seek after the relationship with Jesus or whatever it is that you're doing, like, that's part of, I mean, that's part of faith. Oh, like, I mean, that's what it is. I'm trying to, I don't quite have the words for it. No, like, you're right. The opposite of faith is not doubt. It's apathy. It's the, if you are still investing in the questions, if you are on your Lewis and Clark problematic expedition, you are like stopping and you are making maps of rivers and you are, you know, identifying flora and fauna and you, I mean, like you are, you are paying attention. That is faith. That is an act of faith. And so I think oftentimes we, but when you stop caring, when it stops being an issue, that is where you

disconnect from the faith muscle, so to speak. And even my stumbling through that is evidence of the fact that it is a really scary thing to talk to people about. Yes. Because if you don't know even what you think, you don't even fully know what your words are. it feels way too vulnerable to choose who you're going to tell. You don't know where to begin. Like all of these things, it just feels like you are literally on an island alone. And you don't know what to do next.

Even though this thing is like so integral to the core of who you are, yeah, it's really scary. So we want to, we want to take that. We want to like build a bridge to the island, drop a hot air balloon down there. I don't know. Just so many metaphors going on here. I like it.

So thinking about where we start. with a faith crisis. I would just like to pause it to you or on a faith expedition. I would like to posit to you, Aaron, that it starts for people long before they realize this. It has started. Oh, for sure. Would you agree with it? It's like that first little do what?

Is that true? Is what I? And it's that seed begins to germinate. And the longer you ignore it and you don't pay attention to it, you're going to have a situation. And I don't mean a situation like, oh, well, now you've, now you're out of fellowship with God. I don't mean any of that. I mean, like, you're going to have so many questions. You're not going to know where to start.

Yeah. You're going to have so many fears you're going to not know where to start. And so I think a really important question to ask at the beginning of this, what is exactly the thing that you are doubting? What is it that you are actually angry about? are you doubting faith and how God was presented to you? Are you doubting the gatekeepers? Are you actually doubting God? Are you actually doubting scripture? I think it's, I mean, listen, again, this is how I know I'm having enchiladas on Thursday is because we're naming it. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So I think that principle works so well to figure out, hey, what exactly am I having and taking umbrage with here? Oh my gosh, Professor Umbridge. Is that why she's named? No, yeah. That is why. I didn't realize that clearly until right now. Oh, this was such a joy. Look what happens.

Look, just when you discover things. Also, side note, probably going to edit this out, but I was listening to the sacred cinema episode of Harry Potter. And y'all trying to come up with the name of the divergent movie. You're like, it's called the destructors. Her name is Trish. It was not Trish. It was Tris.

It's fine. Like all the different things was. It was not. Nothing ever. I could not remember what it was. We found it eventually. You did. You did.

You did great. No, that is very, we were sort of taught that specific questions just didn't have a place. Like when I would ask a specific question in youth group or something, it wasn't, it wasn't met with curiosity. It was met with. I mean, we're not, that's really relevant here. You know, like sometimes it was. I don't want to love the energy you're bringing to this, but we're not, that's not a part of this right now.

Oh, we're doing. And so I think, you know, even, even a couple, it was a couple of years ago. It was when Knox was releasing all things reconsidered. And he was doing a little podcast series that was last year. I was about to, I was about to hurt your feelings and tell you that that was last year ago. But when he was doing a podcast series where he was talking to people about things they reconsidered, and I was one of those people. And my thing that I came to him with where I was like, yeah, I've been reconsidering this. I'm not really sure where I am on this was about women in leadership in the church. And looking back on that conversation now, I'm like, oh, Kendra. Like how far I've sort of come, but also like only, it was only a year ago that I was considering, oh, wait, like, Women can preach. Like, that's okay.

Do what? Yeah. But I remember being in high school and being someone who felt I have the, we'll get, we'll get real Jesusy. Like I have the spiritual gift of prophecy. And so I remember being in high school and being a high school girl and being like, I feel like there are things that I'm supposed to say. But the only place that I could ever say them as a student was in my small group with other

girls. And then when I was a volunteer with a youth group. group, it was two other girls. Hmm. And so it was kind of like that, that was, that belief system was, you know, it continued to move in the direction of, no, no, you can say things, but you can only say them to other females. Yeah. Or whatever it was.

And so even just looking back at the, at the process, like, where did it start? That started for me when I was a teenager, but, and I'm 39. Like I'm 39 and it was only a year ago that I was like, wait a minute. I don't really think I don't think I believe this anymore. And I'm a smart person. And I'm not saying that I'm not saying, see, that's my own insecurity that just said that actually. I'm not saying that anybody who thinks that women should not be in church leadership are dumb. That's not at all.

That's not actually true. That's what pushes us further apart. Yes. We have to have those conversations without putting those words on each other. But I put that on myself because I feel, and this is one of the, reasons it's so hard. I feel so strongly now in what I believe about women in church leadership that thinking about who I was when I believed the other thing, when I believed quote unquote the opposite, I feel like I've grown so much as a person and all that stuff. And so it feels like

I'm almost trying to make an excuse for her to other people who were listening to me talk about it. Like, well, she just didn't know. She just didn't know. When really what it is is that was part of my, that was part of my expedition. That's been part of my expedition for so long. And so it doesn't need to be that because I think this and someone else thinks the opposite, that we just, well, I guess we don't believe in the same Jesus. Like we can't do that. We can't do that. I mean, you're absolutely right. And I think, I think what you're talking about here is maintaining this posture of curiosity and not automatically shaming or vilifying that curiosity. Like what, you know, like you, you taught me this about, hey, like, Sometimes when you have a thought, you don't have to come behind it and be like, wow, what a dummy. What an idiot. How embarrassing for you. And so I think if we can like, if we can pull on that thread of what we're doubting and push past the fear of unraveling the entire sweater and what that means, I think that posture of curiosity is going to serve us so well in being gentle with ourselves. and also not necessarily vilify.

Now, in some cases, I think there are villains in this story. Like, I think there are people who intentionally say things and create rules and regulations in order to oppress people in order to have power over them. But sometimes the people who taught you are doing the best they can and we don't have to vilify them. I'm talking about yourself. I'm talking about like not automatically shaming yourself or making yourself the villain. And I think you just did an excellent example of that.

Thank you so much. You're so good. So what about in terms of like starting, if we're saying that really so many of us have started a long time ago in asking these questions and having these just little like little loops rise to the surface of, huh, huh. And you're encouraging us. wisely to pay attention to those, not just push them away, not swat away the steam. Yes.

Because that's what I just imagined. Is steam coming out of the ground? Interesting. That's like a weird picture in my head. It's fine. It's just what it is. But rather than dismissing those things, you are encouraging us to pay attention to them. What about like the tangible resources of where we start?

I know that for me, when I have come to places of. curiosity where I can't just push it away anymore. It's like, oh, no, no, I actually really do want answers. I really do want to understand some things here, or at least here's some different perspectives or whatever. How can we go about finding those voices? Because again, the internet is large and in charge. And there are every resources available to us on the internet and in books. It really is. And that's the problem is it's hard to even know where to begin. So can you help us know where to begin when we have a question about something. You know, in, we recently in the Bible Venge Seminary, we recently read Jesus and John Wayne.

It will set off your own mini faith expedition, just FYI. But it's so great. And I had the opportunity to interview the author, Kristen Dumay. And we asked her at the end of this session, hey, like, this is all great. And we all feel like garbage now because your book is so good. and yet so horrible. And I mean that in the best way. Like I don't want to, like I need her.

Like I think it's a textbook that every Christian should be reading. But my question to her was, well, like, what do we do now? Yeah. And she had such, such a great answer that I have just been rolling around in my head. And one of her answers was, we need to start listening to the people that we rejected. And I think that. That is for me, and I have an example of this in my life. I grew up Southern Baptist. I have like nothing personally bad to say about the Southern Baptist. Collectively, I don't love them,

but my experience was not bad. But in my growing up, people like Rachel held Evans were not vilified, but they were certainly not to be taken seriously. And I remember the moment that I started thinking, something is wrong here. Like, I don't know what it is. I got to figure it out. And I went to one of Rachel's books and discovered for myself that there is another way of thinking. There is another way. There are so many ways to love God. And there are so many ways that we can interpret scripture. And for me, that was a very, that was a very crucial point for me to start understanding and maybe looking at scripture in a different way, looking at my faith in a different way than what I had been taught, not necessarily that everything that I had been taught was bad, but that there,

there are lots of ways to look at these things. And so I think that, that is a good, a good place to start. You taught me that, actually. We were sitting on a on a chaise lounge overlooking a lake together. I remember it. Bondly. And you said, just very casually, there are just so many ways to interpret scripture. And you listed off a handful of ways, like named ways that I had never heard of before. And I was like, wait, what? I mean, I know there are, but like, wait, what? Like, it kind of blew my mind. Yeah. And I think it's just because, so often we don't know things can be true until someone just says like, hey, did you know this? Like some people think this as opposed to what you have thought for so long and you're like,

wait, what? It's, oh my gosh. It's just a strange thing. It's so strange and it's so scary. Like, it, because what you've been taught has sometimes been labeled with a label of this is the only truth. Yep. And if you deviate from this truth, uh, welcome to maybe, actual literal hell. So, you know, I think that there is a lot tied up in that. There is a lot at stake, I think it's sometimes. And I think if we can, if we can kind of push past that fear, I think there's a whole other world to discover. The ride that steals the spotlight every time it hits the road. That's the Volkswagen Tiguan. Its sleek exterior makes a first impression you can't ignore. Step inside to find available full leather seats and wood accents. Under the hood, the available

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Pretty much, yeah. And this is, I think this is a piece that keeps people from fully entering into the expedition with the curiosity and energy that they have on the inside because it is so terrifying to tell people that you're going through this thing. Especially when whatever it is you're questioning, whatever specific thing you might be questioning is so deeply important to someone. to someone that you love. I remember. Also, sometimes it's tied up in their identity. Right. Because they were the ones who taught you.

And it feels like an attack. And you don't mean it that way. But it just, it's so fraught. Yeah. Which is part of, I did start reading Jesus and John Wayne. I'm about two chapters in. I'm so sorry. It would make sense.

It would make sense that what you just said is true. That, for example, a mom or a dad who is being confronted, not confronted, but is interacting now with a grown child of theirs who is questioning the things that they were taught by those parents. And if those parents did that, as part of a collective mindset around we have to preserve the Christian family, we have to pass down these beliefs to our children in order to keep this country strong. And so of course, if that is so tied up in so many of our, you know, because you and I are about the same age, like, and I feel like a lot of people our age are going through the crisis. My sister said the other day, she was like, if you listened

to Carmen as a child and you have not yet deconstructed your faith, it's coming. It's time. It's just a matter of time. The organ music is beginning to play. And so if we are talking to our parents who were brought up in that Billy Graham culture of, we have to preserve the family, We have to have the, there's nothing wrong with like strong families. I'm all for strong families. I think it's a beautiful thing. But because we have, because we have delineated the beliefs so distinctly that if you are somebody who believes in strong families and in strong, because that's a conservative value, that everything underneath that conservative value umbrella, if you dismiss one thing, you dismiss it all. It is all or nothing. And which we do with meal planning. And we, and we, do with our, we do with all of it. Like I feel like that's why people come to this space, this lazy genius space and feel seen in it because we are former and sometimes currently all or nothing thinkers and are learning to see things with a curious eye and with the ability to like hold disparate things, intention and kindness at the same time. Like that we're learned we have to do that

as people or we're just going to keep drifting further and further apart. So yeah. But I think that's important to say like it it doesn't matter how you were raised it doesn't matter like i had one i have wonderful parents they nurtured curiosity they led me to cry like they were they are wonderful people and that my crisis of faith or my expedition of faith has nothing to do with them in a negative way it is it is something that just happens no matter how you grew up i think i think it's something you have to pay attention to especially, no matter how you grew up. Yeah. That's really good because you're right. We see it as somebody did us wrong. Somebody taught us wrong. And in some cases, I think that is true. Like, please hear me. Like, I mean, and I mean like the church is accountable to a lot of abuse in many

different categories. So in some cases, I believe that there needs to be people held to account for that. But I think also in other cases, that's not necessarily what happened. That doesn't discount your deconstruction, your expedition in any way. Yeah. That's really, really good. In terms of how we know who to let in, who to tell, how do we set these boundaries? How do we open these doors and sharing about our faith expedition with our people? Okay. So I, this is actually something that I feel really confident in explaining because my spiritual director helped me understand this really well. Her name is Fran. She's amazing. I know what spiritual director named Fran. She's perfect name for a spiritual I know. She's great. So I was we were walking through a session together and I was talking about how I feel

like I am walking on ice. I'm walking over a huge lake that's covered in ice and and what happens if this cracks. And her question to me was, imagine yourself breaking through. And I want you to see who's on the shore yelling for you to just swim harder. I want you to see who is trying to get you out. And I want you to see who is swimming with you. And that picture was so powerful to me. And it really helped me understand, like, there are some people who, it's not that they don't deserve that part of your journey, is that they're not, they're not going to be, and listen, I'm going to tell you in a minute all the things

that I've done that are wrong and supporting someone going through one of these, like, on all the regrets I have. So I don't, I'm not perfect at this by any stretch of the imagination. But I think that question of who is swimming with you is, is crucial because there are some people, especially if they have not gone through a deconstruction, they're, they're going that this is going to make them very nervous. and very uncomfortable. And we just have to be careful who we trust with this. This is a deep heart, you know, like a soul, a soul work. And I just don't think everyone, everyone gets to know. Yeah. And also, there are people who will swim with you who believe differently than you do. Yes. I believe that. So beautiful about that, too, is that there are people who have a posture of kindness and

compassion and they remember that the thing that matters most is the connection with that person and that that person feels loved and seen no matter what, you know, that the belief system is secondary to that and will still swim with you. I do think that is probably a little bit more unique, but I don't, it's not an impossible thing. And so even just that that is a beautiful, good job, Fran. That's such a way to go, Fran word picture. And, you know, the, I have learned this from Emily Freeman's husband, John, about the power of imagination in our spiritual formation and how you just imagine that. And it's like everything comes to life. Like you, you really do sort of know where the people are. And it gives you this picture that you can hold on to

to know, okay, I can, I'm going to tell this person that I'm struggling with this thing or I can trust this person to say, I'm really going through some stuff. And I don't, you know, I remember, and this is not. a this is not a back patty thing at all, but this is just a, this is an example, because we're going to transition into how can we support someone who was going through something? How can we swim with them? How can we love them well as they're on their own expedition? And a few years ago, it was a long time ago, actually, it was maybe almost 10 years ago. I was a youth group volunteer still and a high school girl said, can I talk to you about something? And we went to Starbucks

like you do at night and you drink coffee at 7 p.m., which is so stupid. And then she's fine, and I'm dying. But it's what you do when you work at youth ministry. And she shared something really, really vulnerable with me that she had not really shared with anyone else. I was the first person in her faith community that was an adult that she had talked to about this thing. And that was a really pivotal moment for me because at the time, my theology, my belief system actually was technically against what she was sharing with me. But I remember that there was no question my mind. I love her the same. I'm not going to shame her for this.

It was almost like the scales fell off where this thing that had been, this belief that had been so the engine of so. many of my faith choices and my positioning with people and all these things like a part of that conservative umbrella like I the scales fell off where I was like no way I know how I'm supposed to react in this I know how my faith tradition would react in this but that's super wrong for me to do because I love her and she's really vulnerable and she's sharing this with me right now she's asking me to swim with her. Yeah. Why would I be like, hold on, I'm going to, I'm going to get out of this water.

This is like too uncomfortable. I'm going to go over here. Like, it's cold. It's just, it was such a moment of, of intense clarity for me about what matters most. And so, and I guess I share that from, I share that to just say like, there, to reiterate that, that there are people who do want to swim with you who, it, open, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, opens the door kind of for their own thought processes. Not that you're doing it to like change people's minds or any of that, but it's like you just don't know what's going to happen when you

are vulnerable with people, which is why it's scary. You don't know what's going to happen. But there's also just this really beautiful thing when you believe that they are swimming with you and you don't have to make that list based on like a didactic list of things, I guess. Is that making sense? No, it makes total sense. And I think, I think what is hard is that in this, there might be people who you think will swim with you and they choose to get out. But I also think that in that there are also people who you put on the shore that might jump in with you. And so I think it's, it, that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean that that you chose wrong or you discerned incorrectly. It means that the spirit is moving in people in complete, like,

we, we all contain so much. It's so overwhelming. And there are so many things at play when something like this happens. And I think, I think it's easy to see that as a rejection of you or a rejection of this thing that you're struggling with when actually it really just might not have anything to do with you. It might have something. They might be in a spot where they're not ready to do that or they, you know, whatever. I think, I think that we have to be, we have to practice just like radical empathy with each other in that. Because you're right, you don't know what the other person is going through at that time. No. And it can very quickly and understandably feel like the deepest personal rejection. Yeah. And it's okay for it to feel

that way and it not be fully true. Yeah. You know, it's not that you have to be like, well, I don't need to feel reject. Like, we can't really control how situations hit us and how we feel about them. But there is a place for experiencing that on our own or within ourselves and also still holding empathy for the other person and valuing that relationship and all that. So, oh, for sure. Oh, my gosh, that's so good. Okay. So how can we, how can we support people who are swimming. I would like to give you negative examples. Oh, good. Things that I have done that I wish I had not done. Let's do it. I think something that my personality type and just who I am tends to do, I want to offer solutions instead of asking questions or just being there. That feels worthless to me. I'm just

going to sit here while you talk and you don't want an answer. Why are you talking to me? You're not a sitter in sad things here? No, I'm not. I'm not at all. And so I, so I want to like, I want to start like slapping band-aids on stuff, you know, but that is so unbelievably unhelpful, I think, in a situation like this. As I know personally, as I have, you know, I have hurt people in that. I have I have cracked relationships in that. And so don't be like me. You know, but I think also there's there's the aspect of trying to hurry someone to the finish line. And as we know, there is no finish line as you're not done till you're dead. Right. Become the subtitle of this. And I think pulling away in discomfort, that's hard. And that's hard. And that's.

to discuss like you have to work that out with your own personal boundaries but I think when I've had friends that have gone through something like this especially before I technically like hit the start button on my own deconstruction and reconstruction I was so uncomfortable with the things they were saying and the questions they were asking because those questions were rising in me and I did not have a good answer and it terrified me and so what's the best thing to do just, I'm just going to turn away just a little bit, not in a big way, but I don't even know that I was consciously doing it. However, I think it's, it's that thing. Like I was a friend that they thought they could swim with and I actually belonged on the shore. And, you know, when we realize that,

when we want to change that, we've got to, we got to jump back in. And, and like, hey, I know you're swimming here and you've got some stuff going on, but I'm here and I'm sorry that I left. Let's, let's go. And so I think, but, but that is, that's really hard. And so, and sometimes that won't be accepted. Like, and I, I think that's something we have to deal with too. Like, if we want to support someone, the best things sometimes we can do is they don't need you anymore or they don't need you right now. Right. You've hurt them or you've, you've, you've complicated this in another way. And I think that's, that's a hard truth to deal with something that I have dealt with so super fun um it was so funny when you said let me show you some things that I have done and I was like a whole list of things in

my own head of things that I've done to basically like almost push someone back deeper into the water yes or try to be like no no no no you're going the wrong direction like what are you doing like very very simple things even like I remember this is this is why people who are 22 really to go through some pretty, I don't know, maybe some intense empathy training when they spend time with high school students, like consistently. But I remember some girls in one of my small groups were talking about cheating on their homework and how they just had so much to do. And so they would, they would share homework and they would copy each other's homework because they just couldn't get everything done. And one of them said to me, and I kind of had a look of like, well, ladies.

and one of them said to me, it's impossible to go through high school without cheating. And do you know what my response to her was? I didn't. That's exactly what my response to her was. But it wasn't, it wasn't like hand on my hip like, I didn't. It was like, I didn't. Oh, I'm so sorry for you.

It was so smug and self-righteous. And I have since gone back and apologized to all of those girls like 10 years later, like, I'm sorry I was such a bee. I did not realize I was so, I was a, an infant. I was four years older than you were. That's the wild thing. It's not okay. I should not be giving you life advice right now. There's nothing about me that suggests that I should be helping you in this. Oh my gosh. But like I also think about how sometimes, because I'm a band-aider or two, you know, like I mean, I'm a lazy genus. Like I can make a system put, but just about anything. Yeah.

So I will tend to rely on that as my default. And I have to be very purposeful in, oh, no, no, we're not going to fix this. We're not going to rush this along. We're not going to. Sometimes there's nothing to fix. It's just like, I just want to be here. But in my desire to just be in the space, I actually don't offer any sort of affirmation to what's being said. So it's more like this, the person is left still questioning if they're okay with me.

Yeah. We're okay. because I'm so like, that must be really hard. And then I just wait. Empathetic look. It is. I think I'm sort of like, I take the empathy like like 50% in in the deference to not wanting to take systems and fixing to 100%.

And so I just sort of back up so far. God, actually lose some of the empathy because I'm afraid of saying the wrong thing. Guy, you are describing every time I open my mouth. Like, am I conversing correctly with this? person, do I understand human interaction? Like, this is the story of my life. I, like, I'm second guessing everything. And if you think about how what that does, it does a lot of things, but it makes the conversation about us now. Yes, you're absolutely right. We've stopped me. Completely stopped worrying about this other person. And now it's like,

am I responding correctly to this? Shut up. Just let this poor person talk. My gosh. So I think that this is, this is actually, this whole conversation is going far better than I ever thought it would be. This is like one of my favorite episodes ever. This is so, so good. And I think it's because, you know, like I, I think I had in my head even when we started talking about this, how are we going to band-aid this? How are we going to systemize this? How are we going to give like steps one, two, three, and four to lazy genius of faith crisis? And it's like, no, we just need to talk to each other about how. complicated this is. We just need to say words to each other and hear other people saying words that say, hey, this is really hard. And we're all like, you can have a heart posture that is so kind and curious towards someone that you have loved for years and years and you could still screw it up. Yeah. And that doesn't have to be like, well, stop talking then. No, it just means we have to have the expectation that we're going to get it wrong. And people are going to get it wrong towards us.

It's like you said about the person thinking that you're a swimmer, but you are not ready to swim yourself because you're you're close to swimming but if you start swimming you're going to drown. Yeah. So you have to get back on the shore and that actually might sacrifice that relationship when you come back into the water and they're like, no, that hurt too bad. I can't do this. Yeah. Except that. That's like so hard. Oh my gosh. But it's like, but that, the fear of that happening is what is keeping us from having conversations that are going to matter and bring us closer together and have a faith crisis not really be a scary term anymore, that it is more of an expedition and that this is what we're doing. And like, we have to start, we can't change

the language around it until we start talking about it. Yeah, that's absolutely true. So it's just, it's so, so, so, so good. I'm so excited about. I'm so glad. Okay, so a couple things as we, as we wrap up. One is you have written us a, you guys, Aaron is really good at writing benedictions. I wrote one for you when your children smeared poop on your bathroom. And it made me cry. And I think I put it in my newsletter. And it's like, what? This is so beautiful. So Aaron has written us, a benediction to kind of close out this episode. So we'll save that for a sec to be our last, to actually close out the episode. But I also wanted to make sure that people know that you are, not just the reason that you're a genius about this thing is because you are so curious about

the process of the questions and darkness and all of the things that come along with faith that we have been told are bad. And you give a platform and a language to those things. And one of the ways that you're doing that currently is with the season of Lent. So I would love for you to tell us about your link guide. Yes, that's really kind. Thank you. Well, I, so every a year for the past three years I've done a lent guide. Lent is like I'm Anglican and so former Southern Baptist so you know when we became Anglican like 11 years ago I was like what is this season of darkness we're all going through together this is so great so I started to learn more about Lent and then I've done Lent I call them guides they're devotionals we just don't want to sound like

Oswald Chambers anymore so we don't call them that but they're but anyway so uh This year we are doing, we're walking through Lent, working through the sermon on the Mount. And the title is called Memento Mori. That's a just real inspiring phrase that means remember that you will die. And even though it feels like we've been in Lent since last year, we're doing Lent again. That's how the church calendar works. And so this idea of, you know, we have to remember that we're going to die, but that's also an invitation to abundant life and what does Jesus say about the way we live? And I think the most excellent discourse on that

is within the sermon on the Mount. And so I have, it's a whole experience. There's a community. It's not on Facebook because I don't do that. But there are scripture readings and there's an audio component and a community component and devotional readings. And it's, I don't want to say it's fun because Lent isn't fun, but, but it is, it is like, you're, you are, uh, anticipating the coming joy of Easter. And Easter on the church calendar, it lasts for 50 days. So it's not like Southern Baptist, like you get your ham, you get your white patent leather shoes and you're good to go. It's like we got to, we got to train in this anticipation so that we can have our 50 days of celebration. So that is link guide. You can find out more about that at Aaron H. Moon.com.

slash shop. There's a code for you guys. Oh, I got you. Oh, yeah. We didn't talk about that. Well, you know. Yeah, there's a code. Lazy 15% off for your people. Love it. That's really, really kind. I want to thank you so much for being here with me. This has been so fantastic. And as we guys will have all the stuff in the show notes and links to Aaron to the to the link guide and the code and all the different things. But Aaron, I'm just so glad. that you're with us today and um would you would you would you benedict us now what is the verb i don't think it's that i don't think it's that but i will okay hold on i got to get my i got get my benediction voice on i didn't i didn't bring it out with that that was oh you didn't lead

no really really sorry okay so before before i do this let me just say this yeah uh a benediction is just a blessing. So if you are not driving right now or you want to receive a blessing for a crisis slash exposition of faith, there are many ways to receive that. You can close your eyes. You can hold out your hands. You can do nothing and continue driving or doing your laundry or whatever it is you're doing. But just however you feel the need to receive it, that's good with me. God, we are disoriented by these days. We are worn thin by our fear, both manufactured and honest. God, we no longer know if what we thought we knew is actually to be known. One by one, the trussing beams of our faith are removed. We cling to splinters and crash to solid ground, only to find it shaking.

In the garden where we once walked, there are landmines. We find no peace. God grant us peace in these days. We are cracking under our questions. We are pressed on all sides. Are we pieces of a puzzle that once fit nicely together, now scattered, lost, and bent? We need to know. Do you hear? Are you there? What are you doing? Is this real? God, hear our prayer in these days. May we be honest about our fears, for the naming of a thing will bring it to light. May we be curious about our anger, for pulling on the thread may give us a new garment. May we be a safe place for our fellow travelers, for being crushed like grapes means we will be wine for those who come behind us. God, reveal yourself to us in this.

these days. Bless our doubts, that they would not be finalities but invitations to come closer to you. God bless our stretching, that it would not be a breaking but a practice of mending. God bless our cracking, that it would not be a shattering, but in looking back, we would see that you are always holding us together. Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that, more dangerous than a B-My, or a C plus life because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it?

I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.