The Lazy Genius Podcast - #230 - How to Feel Like a Person with Aundi Kolber

Episode Date: October 4, 2021

Today, I’m speaking with therapist and author Aundi Kolber. This conversation is a rich exploration of how to start small in finding a therapist, how to care for ourselves when we’re disappointed (like when we think a pandemic is going to be over and it does the opposite), and how the brain works under stress. Helpful Companion Links Learn more about Aundi’s work on her website and follow her on Instagram @aundikolber Get her book Try Softer and grab the Try Softer Guided Journey (releases October 5th) If you want more resources from Aundi, check out her free companion video series for the Try Softer Guided Journey. To find a therapist, go to psychologytoday.com and use their filter system to name what matters most about your therapist or to emdria.org for therapists who specialize in EMDR. Aundi recommends choosing three therapists you're interested in and requesting a free 20-minute consultation to see if it's a good fit. Most therapists offer this. If finances are a hindrance, ask therapists if they have a sliding scale. This podcast is hosted by Kendra Adachi and executive produced by Kendra Adachi, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi there. You're listening to The Lazy Genius Podcast. I'm Kendra Adachi and I'm here to help you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. Today is episode 230, How to Feel Like a Person. I'm joined today by a licensed therapist and author, Andy Colber. Ondi is the author of one of the best books I've read this year, Try Softer, a fresh approach to move us out of anxiety, stress and survival mode and into a life of connection and joy. And that's the author of the best books I've read this year, Try Softer, a fresh approach to move us out of anxiety, stress and survival mode and into a life of connection and joy. And that's subtitle is exactly what this book does. This is one of the richest conversations ever, and I know you'll love it. Andi shares her expertise on how to start small in finding a therapist, like the practical order to do that. She also gives us the kindest, most helpful scaffolding around this current place we're in after being in a global pandemic for over a year and a half and kind of feeling like it was going to be normal, and then it's not again. She gives words to feelings and stressors that we might not have named yet. There is also some mind-blowing research in neuroscience about what happens to our brains when we're under stress. And it's

literally changed my life. So I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation with me and Andi. So here's episode 230, How to Feel Like a Person with Andy Culber. I also have an unusual name that can sometimes get mispronounced. What is your experience of how having a name that people mispronounce. Like truly, part of like who you are as a person having to correct or not correct or assert yourself in that. Like, what is it like to have a name that people mispronounce? Wow.

I love that question. So my full name is Andrea. And I grew up literally correcting every single teacher multiple times because they would always call me Andrea. And I honestly, I really hated it. Because I mean, it happened all the time. And then people will call me Andy. And then I played a lot of sports. And And Andi was kind of a nickname in my family. And it ended up kind of transferring to sports. And it's like quick, it's quicker, you know, than Andrea. And so I started going by it when I was in middle school. It feels like me, which is so interesting, you know, especially as someone who has a trauma history. It's like, Andi is the name that. that I identify with as like most myself. But I have had a ton,

a ton of really weird pronunciations. I often say, I often say like Gandhi, right? Ondi, Gandhi. But that is such a great question because there is a, there's a long history with that one. Like as long as I can remember,

I have never, it's like when some, this is where it's at. When someone gets my, name right, I'm surprised. So I'm like, wow, you got my name right. You know what I mean? Like it's that. It's like that. Well, it just felt like an interesting way to start our conversation because I wanted to talk about the idea of therapy as self-care. Talking to you about this feels like the perfect person and the perfect timing. But so much of it is rooted in identity. I talk in. I talk in.

the Lacey Genius space a lot about the idea of self-care being just what makes you feel like yourself. Like it doesn't have to have a specific activity or whatever. It's just doing what makes you feel like you. And so many people respond, well, what if I don't know what that is? A lot of us have complicated relationships with our identity that were done to us, simple things, but still significant things like not having our name pronounced correctly ever. And that's a big part. And that's a big part of our identity, all of that. So if you could give us sort of kind of some structure around what we might be experiencing after this last year. Yeah. No, I think you're touching on so many good points. And I love that you define self-care as things that make you feel like yourself.

That's actually how I think of self-care too. And even before I really got into understanding, like, the neurobiology of how we function, that's actually where I start. Like that's, and that's where I come back to. But so with what you're saying, I think, yeah, let me just, let me just add a few things. One thing to understand, just in a really broad sense of how I define trauma, is that it's anything that we experience that overwhelms our capacity to cope. So there is a ton of nuance to that. Like in my book, TriSoftor, I talk, you know, I go into big T trauma, which is typically, you know, known as PTSD and then little T trauma, which is generally speaking, really overlooked in our culture and profoundly under just sort of supported and examined and all that. So I go

into that. But I think understanding this, I love saying this from the perspective of how each person experiences it. Because what it does is it shifts. from being as much about what's happened to how you yourself experience it in your body. So when people, when therapists talk about this year, like it's been traumatic, there's nuance in the sense that going through an event that has the potential to become trauma doesn't always mean that you will be traumatized personally. And the difference often is, is things like, for example, if you grew up with what's called good enough parenting. So if you experienced enough support, not perfect, but enough to where there was a sense that

internally you began to see the world through the framework like, there are people that care about me. I have things to offer. I matter. It's okay for me to speak up and take care of myself. Like these are the kinds of narratives that kind of come out of that. It's like it's not that we don't experience pain. It's just like it's good enough, you know. But let's say you grew up in a family where you were not allowed to talk about your feelings. Or you were told how much of a problem you were for experiencing pain. Or you were shamed just for existing.

Or you felt like it was your responsibility to fix your family. these are all examples of, first of all, potentially little tea trauma if they didn't get resolved and if we haven't had support. But it points to like if you've had that kind of experience and then you walk into a global pandemic. Yeah. I love this picture. It's out of somatic psychology. Like you have a cup, right? And in one cup, it's like barely full. And so this cup has a lot of extra room. So you pour in the bigness of a global pandemic and you're like, that's hard, but I'm handling it. But then you take this other cup and inside of this cup is a history of trauma and financial worries and kiddos who have really high needs and not feeling like you have enough support. And this cup maybe only has just a

teeny bit of room. And you pour in a global pandemic and it begins to overflow because there is not capacity to hold the fear and uncertainty and division and anxiety that comes with an event like what we've been walking through. And so that might give a picture of why, you know, in both situations, you know, both cups are going to feel it. But in the first one, that person maybe has more bandwidth to hold it. And then if they have the support and even just a little bit of some resources, like, hey, I'm going to go on a walk by myself and listen to my favorite song and just give myself permission to just feel okay. That even is a resource. But the person on the other side, they don't even like, they're like, I don't even know my name right now. Yeah. You know,

like. And so it's just a, that would be an example of someone who's maybe experiencing more of what would be thought of as like a traumatic, some real traumatic energy in their body. So many people listening to that are like, oh, I feel so seen right now. What I would love to ask of you, and it's kind of a big ask, but one of the lazy genius principles is to start small. And what we often do, especially when met with an overflowing cup, right? There's so many things. You mentioned like financial stress and high needs kids and, you know, maybe there's a demanding job. Maybe you don't have support. And thinking about people who, even if one of those things, it's true, it's incredibly difficult. And yet I think all of us are recognizing some of the things that have been contributing to a fuller cup than we realized we had because of all of the stress of this last year. And so it's very, understandable, I think for us to go, well, I got to fix everything. Like I don't, to the point where we

don't know where to begin. And so I, I would just love to hear from you. Where is a place that we can start small and begin? You know, someone does not have the resources right now of, say, a therapist or of support being able to hire people to help create that space. Kind of like, I don't want to a worst case scenario, but fullest cup scenario. What is a way that we can start small right now? Yeah. Yeah. Well, first of all, I just have to say that I love that you guide people to do that.

Because whether you know it or not, that's actually really trauma-informed is what I would call that. And the reason why is because when I say trauma-informed, I just mean that we all hold stories in our bodies about what we've gone through. And if that includes trauma, big changes, trying to fix things, fix things, everything at once will often actually activate a trauma response. And so I just say that, like, I think that it's just so important to just like honor how big going, like being small is. Like, it's just, it's really important. So I just, I love that. and I just wanted to say that.

But to be more specific to this situation exactly. I think I'm going to give a couple of small things, and then maybe folks can listen to that and see where they feel like what resonates the most with them. One of the things I would say, and it's going to maybe feel counterintuitive, and again, coming from that trauma-informed lens, which another way I might talk about that

is to have a voice and a choice, So when you hear me say something, it doesn't mean like, boom, this is your only option. So just know, like sometimes I say take what you need. If this is for you, then go ahead and take it. If it's not for you, just let it pass on by, you know. That idea fits very well in this space because we are very much like, no, you get to decide what matters to you and you get to make the choices that work for you. I have no right or knowledge to tell you what to do. No one can. That's not fair. And so for me to position myself as some sort of expert on your life

is kind of ridiculous. And so that is a very, this is fertile ground for what you just said. This is a group that knows like, I don't have to do that if that doesn't work for me. So it's great. I love that. Yes. No. So that's awesome. So a first thing is to do something. And sometimes it can be just even verbally, but if it feels helpful, like, to write or to draw, would be to name. Like, what's in your cup? What are you holding? What is causing you to potentially be overflowing? Now, as you do that, you know, be aware. If that starts to feel overwhelming, let it pass by. But I think one of the things that tends to be true with our bodies and our emotions is that, that many of us, even just socially like in our culture, have been taught to repress what we're

experiencing. And the thing about that is it's like, you know, it's like a dam that, you know, just gets too full and it starts leaking. And pretty soon it's going to burst because we cannot contain everything. We're not created to. And so I think paradoxes, just naming, even if it could be like, rather than what you're holding, it could even be like your emotions. Naming that you are overwhelmed. Naming that it feels too big. Naming that you are feeling like you're at the end of your rope.

That's a form of emotional integration. Naming what we're experiencing allows the parts of our brain that maybe are, it's usually in the lower part of our brain that are feeling really activated and maybe if it's connected even to pass trauma, they may be sort of experiencing the here and now as though it's still in the past. So when we name it and we sort of observe it, we are coming more from our present day self. And that present day self is sort of giving, again, it's almost like, you know, giving, like it's blowing off steam. It's allowing it to settle a little bit. So that's one thing to start. So whether that saying it verbally to a friend, writing it down, or even just naming it for yourself.

Another thing that I think is so important, and it is a skill that we cultivate, it's not necessarily something that we can just step into, is self-compassion. And self-compassion, you know, compassion, the definition is to suffer with. So when we are self-compassionate, there's a sense in which we are learning. to be with ourselves in our pain. And it's even a step further than just being kind to ourselves. Kristen Neff, who's done a ton of research in this area, and really, I really love her work. But she talks about there's three parts of self-compassion that you can, you can kind of get into it through any one of these three paths. And one of them is mindfulness. So that's when we're just,

we start to become aware. We observe, like, oh, I'm in, I'm experiencing some pain. Like just being able to name that allows us to actually notice that we're feeling it without necessarily living from the pain. So it's just a just a very gentle shift. The other one is called common humanity. And this is the idea that as people, all of us experience pain. So like, you know, when I think about the pandemic, it's like, oh man, what a great example of there are so many different versions of folks who, gone through. It's not that it's hit us all the same, but there's been a lot of different types of suffering this year. And to say to just like to recognize that in a way helps us to know we're not alone in it. And then the last one is self-kindness. And you know, that can look a lot

of different ways, but it may just being a little bit more gentle or it may be giving ourselves permission to back out of something that feels too big, you know. But with self-compassion, And this is for me just a huge, I integrate compassion with a lot of what I do. Because one, there's a, because I come from a little bit of faith integration, I really experience that as a way that I can experience like God's love towards me. Like it's like I'm giving it to myself. It's a way of almost like all my little people inside of me. I can be compassionate to them, you know?

And a great way to just, you know, a really simple way to do this might be to think of someone that you care about in your life, who you really love. And if they were struggling, what do you notice in your body when you think of them? Does your, do your, you know, does your heart, do you notice that softening and does your body get a little bit more tender? And could you, would it be possible to shift that to yourself? So there's lots of different ways there. But for folks who are interested in that, on my website, I actually have a self-compassion exercise that comes through my email. So if you're interested, I go through, there's a lot of different ways to practice self-compassion. But I think that's a beautiful one.

And then the last one I would say is, and this is frankly probably the smallest step. So for some, this might be the easiest. is to get really grounded in your present moment. Because sometimes we can't even handle the next minute. So we just need to start with this exact minute. And so grounding is really about using your senses, your five senses, to become extremely present to the here and now. So, you know, I love to go outside for this because being outside is just like,

there's so many sensory experiences. you know, but if, you know, might be doing things like putting your feet in the grass, picking up a rock, what are you smelling, what does the sky look like? When I'm with my kids, for some reason, their eyelashes get me. Like I just zoom in on their eyelashes because there's something about it that makes me be like, holy moly, like here I am right here. And here are these little miracles that I often almost pass by, you know. So I think that would be any of those options or in any order.

I think that those are places because as our body begins to settle, I really believe that each of us have embedded wisdom in our bodies. And as we allow that to rise up, like as our anxiety or as our dread or whatever settles down, it's like our wisdom rises. And then I think we can ask that part of ourselves, like, well, what do I need to let go of? what's not essential. What isn't as important right now? Because right now, literally, I got to survive.

Like, that's the thing. And so that would be a few things to think about. We'll be right back. RBC Training Ground has discovered potential in over 20,000 Canadian athletes and counting. Your story could be next. If you've got the drive, they'll help you find your path to the Olympics.

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There's so many things that I could say. And the first one I want to say is just thank you for naming all of things so well and so simply. And I also am anticipating the response to some people who perhaps have not been through therapy before, who have had full cups for a really long time. And it's been manageable. It's like at the rim for a long time. And now, you know, when you are almost forced into a position where you realize, oh, the way I have been living is not sustainable, but I don't know what to do now. It feels like cheating to say, go hold a rock. Like it feels like that's not going to work, Andy. That's not going to work. I hear that. And so I just kind of want to sort of speak into the people who are hearing that. And it's because it

feels what what I think we feel. And I will only speak for my own experience is that when someone says something that is a simple, I feel emotional just thinking about it, there was a lot of like, there was a lot of hurt that I experienced when everything felt so big and heavy and impossible. And the offering of what would fix it felt so obscenely simple that I was like, are you even seeing this? Are you even seeing this? And yet I will also affirm that going outside for like literally 30 seconds and taking a deep breath is better than I was 30 seconds before I did. Like it's doing what you're saying.

And I think that's why I get so many like I get so many questions that I feel are laced with frustration about like what do I do with this? Like how do I how do I start therapy? How do I find a counselor? It just feels too big. It feels too small. It feels like it's too much. It's too little. Like there's no, we want an answer of just tell me what to do.

Give me the big machine. That's what a lot of this space is, is I'm going to build the big machine. But we spend all the energy maintaining the machine as opposed to experiencing what we think the machine is going to give us. Yeah. And that's why we have to start small with. things. That's why you might get angry or frustrated because you're afraid. That is the answer really for me to just pay attention to where I am? Now, what you're saying, and I'm saying this to the listener now, Andy is not saying that your cup is going to somehow settle and get less liquid in it

and you're going to have more margin just because you go outside and pick up a rock every day. That's not what the answer is here. But that's why I was asking, what is something that we can do today right now and our right now and you're saying to do something that grounds you in the right now. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think I love that you're on you're addressing this because, you know, I know you've read at least some of my book and and where I start in my book is actually it reminds me of this conversation. I start with talking about a client and and I and this is frankly so many clients. They come in. And then they say, so how long is it going to take?

You know? You guys, you didn't see her. She rubbed her hands together. I am pretty sure that when I, because I read that story. And when I started therapy, I'm pretty sure I was like, I think I just need to come like three times. And then everything will be fine. And my counselor was like, um, you, you have, you had abusive. No, no.

Like this is not, this is not like a 10 step. Like check, check, check. I'm done. That's not how this works. but we want it so desperately to be that way, which was part of the story, which I will now hand back to you. Yeah. No. I and I and totally. And yes, there are sometimes just, I want to give this caveat. There are times in therapy where when there are real specific issues and real what specific lots of things, it's, you know, you can go five or six times and that's appropriate and okay. Oftentimes,

folks that I work with have a history of childhood trauma. So I'll give that caveat that this complex. There are often not easy answers. And that doesn't mean that you're going to be in therapy for your whole life. But it just means that, you know, often I think the reframe is, and this is what I think of for the listeners who are like, okay, I'm sitting here with my pen and paper. And that's it. And so the, and so here's what I would want to say is just first I want to just honor. I just want to honor the parts of you that are like, give me more. Give me the thing. Like, I'm ready to go in and do this deep work. And like, I'm, you know, I'm hungry. And the reason I want to honor this part of you is many, there's many reasons. One is I have that part two. I am, I am a, I survived my childhood by

white knuckling. I survived my life by overachieving, overaccommodating, uh, leaving. my body and on the outside, I got so much praise. But what I didn't get was peace. And what I didn't have was safety. And what I didn't have was connection. And so there's this paradox where often showing up for yourself looks like slowing things way down. And especially if you've never been taught this before, learning to listen to yourself, to your body, to the sensations of your body. And if you have been just barely scraping by for most of your life and then you just went through a pandemic, the potential is that your body has so much intensity wound up in it, that it's actually quite scary to allow some of that to unwind.

And I'm just here to tell you that I am not here to rush you. And I'm not here to try to change you and that there is a reason you are like, like, there's a reason you survived. Right. Like we can honor all the ways that our body has often worked so hard to get us where we're. We're we are. The hard thing sometimes, though, is communicating to our body that the danger is over. How do we begin to gently reorient to the here and now? And so those three things that I told you, I mean, for example, like in trisofter or in, I actually, I have a, it's called the guided, the trisopter guided journey. It's coming out in October. And it really dives into this. So, so if there's a part of you that's resonating. With this, I'd encourage you to look into it because I go into a lot

of nuances. But what I want you to understand is that when our bodies go outside of what's called our window of tolerance, which is the range of arousal in which we can feel our feelings or experience a sensation and feel sort of safe and grounded, even like ourselves, once we go out of that, we go into either fight, flight, potentially fawn, or freeze. When we go into those trauma responses, which if your cup has been overflowing, there's a good chance that your body has been doing that. We don't have the resources of our full brain and body. That means that the things that actually are helpful to you, the knowledge that you know,

the people that you know love you. The things that actually do support you, those will not feel available to you. And so this is where, again, going back to the very beginning of this part of our conversation, starting small, unless and until we are integrated, like meaning we're in our window of tolerance, we are only living from the lower part of our brain that is the only priority of survival at that point. just know that that's why going small does big work. Because our body begins to relearn what it feels like to be safe. To know, oh, no, like the sky is still the sky. Like, I am still me. Like, you know, for me, I'm like, I am a 38-year-old woman and I have, I know a few things.

And if I don't have that available to me, man, the world feels a lot different. frankly. When I read in your book that energy is redirected from the part of our brain that is the most fully developed that holds that knowledge that helps us with critical thinking and integrating all these things that are happening around us that make us feel like a person that the energy is directed away from that part of our brain to the base part of our brain that is completely stuck on survival. Understandably so. It's like, oh, that's why. That's why. That's why. when you walk in the kitchen and someone says, what's for dinner? And your cup is overflowing and you don't have any, you're experiencing,

perhaps those responses that you have not been able to name before that are connected outside of you. And you feel, well, there are lots of different ways that that comes out. But when you described freeze and that dissociative aspect of it, that response, it was like, oh, I think that's what my body does often is freeze, where I'm like, where I'm like, I don't, I feel like I'm short-circuiting. And I think I actually, what you're saying is you kind of are. Because the energy is leaving the place. It's like you really, like you just said, I think you guys listen to what Andi just said.

You do not have access to the resources in your own brain that you need. And you are not present when you cannot tell your, when your body does not think that you are safe. That's right. That's right. wild. It's like equal parts terrifying and also so freeing. It can make sense. But then you're also like, oh, wait, but that's happening. Oh, no. What do I do? And you're like, go stand in the grass. Take a breath in the grass. Like, just for a second. I promise it helps. You know, like, that's why that's important. Yeah. Like, this cannot be overstated. There is no, like,

you can't work around this. When it's truly like you are not yourself. you know, it really is survival mode because your body is experiencing that moment as though it is a threat, not your kids talking to you, you know? And that is a big deal. That's a big deal. And what's so cool and what I love, you know, being a survivor of trauma and what I have learned is that our bodies are dynamic and we can shift and we can change. And, you know, our, so that, window of tolerance term that I was talking about earlier, as we do these things, as we give our body more cues of safety, and that includes too, I haven't talked about this a lot, but being in the presence of people that you feel safe with. So other folks who maybe feel like you feel a sense of like

you can breathe and you can talk and you feel like yourself, what's happening is your body is experiencing cues of safety. And as we do that, that actually expands the window of tolerance. And when our window is expanded, that's essentially speaking to our resiliency. So when we talk about this term resiliency in the truest sense of the word, it's when we have the support and resources to feel our feelings and be with reality, whatever that reality is. And, you know, so often in our culture that gets weaponized like, oh, man, you're just so strong and you just pushed on through and you just didn't even care and like whatever that is, you know?

And that I think is, you know, not to say like survival is always worth being honored, but that is different then going through an experience in a way in which we are integrated. And so, yeah, I really appreciate that you talked about this because I do think there's like these parallel processes that happen inside of us where it's like there's almost an acceptance that has to happen that we have to slow it on down. We have to, you know, for the, for the parts of ourselves that just want to fix it, that just want to be done, that just want to like for it to be over. I just would encourage folks to honor that part of themselves. Like I hear you. Like there's a reason that you. That you.

you've probably needed that part of yourself. And that, you know what? Thank you so much to that effective, hardworking part. But right now, that's actually counterproductive. And so it is okay to say, I hear you, but I need to try a little bit of a different way. That was one of the most impactful tools that I was taught by a counselor that I've had in the past, a trauma counselor, where it was to honor the voice in me was the nine year old in me that was so desperate to make sure everything was okay and was the most concerned with my safety and had the lowest tolerance for what equaled safety. And so when I would kind of like hear her and feel her sort of come up and start to like it was almost like she was like knocking on my like on my skull like,

hey Kendra um like she was really panicking yeah and to say rather than to ignore her or see her like calm down or dismiss her to say hey i know you're scared thank you for for caring you know thank you for being here for caring and you did so much for me for so long we're safe now though and this is a this is a new thing we've learned so just like come come with me like it's to To bring it together, like to give a seat. My counselor said it's like that all of those people, all of those versions of me, all of those iterations of me over the course of my life and through different kinds of experiences and trauma, it's like they're all at the table. But if you see that there is a head of the table, they're not at the head of the table. They're not running the meeting.

They don't let, they don't need to run the meeting. That's it. Yeah, valuable for them to be there, but they don't need to run the meeting. And so I just, I love that that it's almost just like giving yourself permission to be, to be fully yourself, like you were saying before, to be present with who you, with who you are. So, oh, this is just so deeply, this is so deeply good. It's just so good. I want to, we don't have much time. And I want to be sure to ask this one question because I don't have a, I don't have a good answer for this.

And I feel like you do. So I would love to ask you instead of trying to figure out an answer on my own. And that is the question of how do I find a therapist? I've only had my own experience to pull from, which is I would get a recommendation from someone who has been in counseling. And they're like, this person was great. You should try them. But the question also becomes, well, what if you don't like them? And what if you don't connect? And what if they don't work? And do you break up with them? Do you tell them? Like, there's just a lot of anxiety that keeps people from actually doing it. So as a therapist, can you just give. us some words about how to start actually finding someone. Yes. Well, to to bridge what you're saying, I think it is a good start to ask people in your life for referrals. You know, I think, you know, sometimes that can be friends or sometimes it can be churches. Sometimes it can be organizations. And I, and I do think that that can be a good place to start, partly because you can ask about the person that they're seeing and that kind of thing. So I don't want to say that that's not helpful. But sometimes that well runs dry or sometimes you don't know who to ask or whatever. So

starting from there, so a couple of thoughts. You know, there's lots of different therapy websites. And I think that can be a good place to start. I know like, for example, psychology today uses, you can use their filters to find, like, for example, I am an EMDR therapist. I'm also trauma-informed. I am a Christian, but I don't exclusively do Christian counseling. So one thing that's nice about using filters is it at least brings it down into maybe the range of folks that you are interested in seeing. I often recommend, and I am biased, and I'll just say that, but like a trauma-informed therapist, I, like, if it's at all possible, I just think in the world we are in, having someone who has a really good working understanding of trauma is super helpful because there are so many people who actually have, you know, whether it's essentially we're talking about

nervous system work. Like there's like whether you want to call it trauma or just disturbances, there are things that are happening in their body that they maybe have never been given language and tools to work with. So the filters are really helpful. Additionally, you know, you can check and see if like they take insurance. or not. Their prices, things like that. Another, a couple other things, websites to MDRA, E-M-D-R-I-A.org. Again, I'm an EMDR therapist, so I also really love it as a modality, especially for folks if you suspect or know that you have trauma in your history. EMDR can be really helpful. And Emdria is a great organization to find someone in your area. Typically,

Therapists, if like, for example, I'm in Colorado, I'm only licensed to see folks in Colorado. So like, I am not able. So it's just something to be aware of when you're looking for a therapist. Another part of this that I'd really recommend is if cost is an issue, checking in to see if maybe a therapist has a sighting scale. Many therapists have citing scales, even if they don't advertise it. So I would always recommend asking. The other thing is I like to tell people to find at least three therapists that they'd like to just connect with. Many therapists will give like a 20-minute consultation for free. And in that, you know, you can tell so much from a conversation with a therapist because, you know, research has shown us again and again that the relationship is one of the biggest indicators of success in therapy. So it almost, I would actually say if someone has really great credentials, but you don't feel comfortable talking to them or you don't see yourself getting to a point that you would, go ahead and just give yourself permission to cross that person off your list. Because you really, that, again, it goes back to the safety piece. Our body is needing to pick up cues of safety. So I would, I would recommend interviewing at least three, asking for a consultation, getting, you know, getting a feel.

I would ask in that time, like, have they worked with folks who have an issue, a presenting issue similar to yours before? I would, you know, for folks who are looking to integrate faith, that may be something that you might want to bring up. Like, what does that look like? Not everybody wants to do that, and that's totally cool, but if that's important to you. And then to just say, you know, I love to ask a question, have they ever been in therapy before? because I, you know, I'm a therapist who is in therapy. And not that they need to be always, not always in therapy, but it's an important part of being a therapist. Partly, it gives us a remembrance of how vulnerable it is to be a client. And also, it's really deep work to be a

therapist to hold space for folks and do this work. It's different. It's different than many types of work you might do. And so I think it's, you know, you can just check in with that person and see kind of what their response is like. Yeah, that's way better than any answer I've ever given. So thank you. I'm just like, just ask somebody. I don't know. It's just so bad. Oh, man. Well, I, I'm just so grateful for your time. I want to encourage, well, everybody we're going to put, you know, we'll put links to all the things. And I think probably what we'll actually do is kind of give these bullet points of how to find, how to find a counselor in the show notes so that you can just kind of have those written out because I know some people, it's easier to see it. Like it, it lands

easier if you can see it with your eyes. And I, I just want to deeply, deeply recommend Andie's book try softer and we'll put a link to that and in the show notes i um there is such a gentleness in the tone of that book and yet and not yet and i also trust you i think sometimes people who um again i will speak for myself and then anecdotal conversation information but i think so often when we are met with someone who is who is gentle and who sees us it also feels like, but wait, I also don't feel safe. And we need strength that goes with that. And it's a very unique thing to do both of those and hold them at the same time. At least it feels, it feels hard for me to experience. It's an unusual thing to experience a strong and gentle spirit at the same time.

And you guys, this book is that. It is just a, and it's beautifully written. It is easy to understand. And yet it is full of like researched scientific information. It really is a, it's a very special book. So I'm just so glad you wrote it. I'm so glad that you were here. And we will send people. And I'm so glad I didn't know you had another book coming out.

And I'm so excited about that. And you said it's a guided. It's a companion. It's a companion. Yeah. It kind of deepens the practices. that I talk about in TriSoftor, and they're not the exact same practices, but it's almost like, I tried to think of it like, if I was in therapy with someone, how would we go another level deeper?

Yeah. And that is what the guided journey is kind of hoping to do. Because I think a lot of, I have been so honored by the response with TriSoftor. You never know. You know, you do something. You never know. It's true. You know, you just don't know.

You're like, I think this is a thing that we need. you know. But, and so part of what I've gotten is people, I've been hearing from people that they'll read it a couple times, you know, and that they're. And so I just felt this sense of wanting to even give more language and more nuance and more tools. Because I say this is the work of my life. Like, this is not something that you check off the list. It's more a way to be. And so thank you for your kind words. It means so much. I'm so excited for people to be able to, to read it. Well, Andy, thank you for being with us today.

We're so grateful. Absolutely. It really was fun. And that's it for today's episode. I'm guessing a lot of you already ordered Andi's book, like in the middle of this conversation, that you can find links to it and her new book, the Try Softer Guided Journey, as well as the step-by-step list of how to find a therapist in the show notes. I sincerely hope this episode has given you. some lightness in the very heavy place of being a person in this world right now. Start small. Start small.

And that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time, be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. I'm Kendra and I'll see you next week. Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that more dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life because when you're living a B or B plus life, You don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch.

I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A-plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.