The Lazy Genius Podcast - #305 - Dinner Permission with Ali Slagle

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

Ali Slagle is a food writer for The New York Times, the author of one of my favorite cookbooks, and an all-around delight. She’s here today to put some words to the never-ending chore of dinner and give us a fresh perspective on how to find and use low-effort, high-reward recipes. Helpful Companion Links I Dream of Dinner (so you don’t have to) by Ali Slagle The New York Times food Instagram where Ali often posts recipes and videos The gnocchi that’s like a gummy bear you can eat for dinner Sign up for the Latest Lazy Listens email. Grab a copy of my book The Lazy Genius Kitchen or The Lazy Genius Way! No transcript for this episode since it’s a conversation. Thanks for understanding. This podcast is hosted by Kendra Adachi and executive produced by Kendra Adachi, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I am Kendra Adachi, and I'm here to help you be. a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. This is episode 305, dinner permission with Ali Slagall. Ali Slagall is a food writer for The New York Times. She is a cookbook author of one of my favorite cookbooks in the whole entire world. I dream of dinner. And she is a delight. We just finished our interview and I'm recording this intro right now.

And I'm like on cloud nine because she speaks such beautiful, lazy genius language and she also makes delicious food and it's just a delightful person all around. So I cannot wait for you to listen to this episode, dinner permission with Ali Slagel. Hi, Ali. Hi, good morning. This is so exciting. I'm so excited to meet you. I'm such a fan.

I know the same way. I like, my husband was on the New York Times food Instagram account last night, just like hanging out. and one of your real started and I was like, I get to talk to her tomorrow. You're like, guess what I'm doing tomorrow. I'm doing tomorrow. He's a middle school counselor. My job is way more fun than his. Gosh, wow, bless him.

I'm so excited that we get to have a conversation. I feel like same way. Gosh, you guys, this is Ali Slegal. Ali is the author of I dream of dinner, which is, listen. So I love recipes. I love cookbooks. I love flipping through them. I rarely cook from them because I don't like following really detailed instructions.

And when I got your book and I started reading and I was like, I have never read a cookbook that cooks the way I cook that's telling me to make food the way that I love to make food, it was like a revelation. It was a revelation. Wow. I'm like shaking inside just hearing that. It makes me so happy. You're so good at your job. So good. So I, you know, this is the lazy genius podcast and we are, we are a community that really seeks to like not do everything, right? Like we want to be a genius about the things that matter to us and lazy about the things that don't. So just to help us get to know you a little bit better, especially as it relates to the kitchen, what would you say you are a genius about in the kitchen that you really care about? And then what are you like super not care about? And lazy, listen, lazy is not a negative word around here. Lazy is a word that we love. and embrace. So where are you a genius and where are you lazy in the kitchen? I would say my laziness

or the thing I really don't care about is ingredient diversity. Like I want, I know like five ingredients super well. And I'm a genius about how to use them because I find going to the grocery store really exciting and overwhelming and I just buy a lot of things. And then I don't have time to cook through all of them. So I'd rather just focus. focus my shopping and really know garlic and lemons and olive oil and just be able to use them in a million different ways. So I will have already said this in the intro, but can you with your own voice, please tell the people what you do for a living and the freedom that they will now experience with that answer and your job? So my job is I write recipes, which I think a lot of

people maybe don't know what that means, but it starts with an idea, like, what is a dish that I want people to make or that I think people should make? And then I have to write instructions, but it's not just instructions for me. It's instructions for lots of people. So I think about it sometimes kind of like in IKEA instruction manual, like a lot of different kinds of people have to make this and have to make it within their life. So I'm thinking a lot about where people are going grocery shopping, how much time they have, what tools they have. So I have this kernel of an idea that I have to form for a lot of different people to be able to recreate. And she doesn't care about ingredient diversity. You guys. And if you did, that would also be okay. You know, it's not that it's bad or good.

I just think that there are things that we have in our heads that we like a definition of what it means to be someone who's proficient in the kitchen. And one of those qualities is that you cook with a lot of different things all the time. And you're saying, no, like, I, you don't have to. And that's not even a choice that you personally make in your own life right now, which I just love. It's honestly, not something I even realized until I started reading the comments on the New York Times cooking website. A lot of people were like, well, you use such inexpensive ingredients and you're using ingredients that I love too. And I just never thought about it back to that because it's just like what I love and what I gravitate towards. Okay, so you're lazy about ingredient diversity. What would you say that you're

a genius about? You really want to care about and spend time on in the kitchen. I really don't like wasting time. So I am always thinking about how I can do something faster, but not ruthlessly. Like, I really love cooking, but I don't want to be ruthless with my time. Like, I just want to maximize every ingredient, every resource, because I'm thinking about when I'm cooking a recipe, I'm thinking about everyone else who's cooking it. So I'm thinking about that drive to the grocery store. Like, I just don't want people to be mad at me. And so I want to, I want the food to taste delicious, but it has to be like, I want them to show up at dinner and be like, wow, I didn't do anything. I want that moment. So that phrase fast, faster, but not really.

list is such a, I like wrote it down because that is actually, I resonate with that so much because it's really easy to conflate doing things efficiently with being a crazy person about it, like that you lose the thread of what really matters that like I'm making a dinner that's going to make us like feel good and comfort and happy and like, this is nice. You know, if you're so focused on efficiency, which is sort of my Achilles heel, if you're so focused on that, it's a really easy to become ruthless in that efficiency. And you like, you just like nose to the grindstone on like getting it done the fast as you possibly can. And then you lose the joke because cooking is really lovely. And it doesn't have to be slow to be lovely. It can be lovely and fast. But if you're ruthless about,

it's not lovely anymore. So that's such a good phrase. You need to save that and make that a tagline for your next book. Because I'm like, here for it. I'm here for it. Okay. So what would you say then is your sort of personal philosophy about getting dinner on the table? Because we, We all have different priorities when we're cooking, depending on our season of life, those priorities change. We may learn some confidence. Like we start to cook enough chicken that we're like, oh, wait, I kind of know how to do this now. So that begins to kind of shift.

But how would you describe for you currently your personal philosophy about dinner? I should say, when I was working on the book, my first step was to do a big focus group, just asking people like how they make dinner, how it happens. And everyone, everyone's philosophy is so different. And so for me, that makes my job harder because it's like I'm thinking about all these different people's priorities. But for me, like my personal dinner situation is I start with what is going to go bad first because food waste and therefore money waste is really top of mind for me, especially because I'm cooking so many recipes every day. I have just like all these. strange bits of ingredients, and I do not want to put them in the trash can. So my first point of

like, what am I going to make for dinner is like what is going to go bad first? And then from there, I think about what I feel like cooking, which I think sometimes that gets lost a little bit. Like we're so focused on like what we're eating that I also think about like that moment in the kitchen is your time. And like you should enjoy the process of cooking it. So sometimes you want to like flash something in the pan really quickly. And sometimes you want to stand over a pot and stir and stir and stir really slowly. So, so then I think about that. Like, what do I feel like doing today? This simplicity of both of those, uh, points is so good. And it reminds me of when my, I had a two year old and a, and a new baby. And I made risotto one night for dinner. And part of me was like,

what are you doing? Right. You have two, tiny. humans. You don't have time to make risotto. It's ridiculous. But I wanted to stand at that stove and slowly pour in broth and wine into that rice and just like not think about anything else. Like I wanted to do that. And I have not thought about that memory in a long, long time. Like it's been a decade and it might be that long since I've thought about it, that that's exactly right that we dismiss or forget about the importance of not just what you want to eat, but what you want to cook, like what you want to experience when you're cooking. And there's a place for all of those experiences and to ask yourself that question is really important.

So I love that. Oh, so good. It's so good. We'll be right back. Aw, isn't something we need to travel for. It's something waiting for us in everyday life, whether in a city street or a moment with a work of art. I'm Dr. Keltner, host of the Science of Happiness podcast. Join me for Cities of Aw, a special series on how our public spaces can spark awe, wonder, and enhance the quality of public life. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts. What would you say is something that people are getting wrong about how they think about dinner? I think you kind of touched on this earlier. Like there's a lot of cookbooks that are super aspirational that are just like, everything is beautiful and that there's definitely

a place for that as an inspiration point. But what I really wanted to get across in this book and in my cooking generally is that impressive isn't always delicious. Like just because it looks nice and there's like 400 herbs on it and you made it's gnarnish, like it doesn't mean that it has any soul underneath there. So I think I'm always like I always just want to refocus people on the goal of cooking, which is like you're doing this to feed people and yourself. And sometimes that is like a slop of beigeness and like, that's okay. That is really okay. I have to remind myself of that all the time because all of my recipes are photographed and I get so self-conscious about like my slop, but it's like, this is so delicious.

Like all the most delicious foods happen to be unattractive. Slop of baseness. I will never get over. That is like 80% of what we eat is a slop of delicious baseness. And yeah, it's, it's, uh, when I was writing, the lazy genius kitchen, which just has two recipes in it. That's it. It is not a cookbook. But when I was thinking about, I was kind of breaking down recipes, especially ones that are like one pot, one pan recipes and trying to help people see, you might open up a cookbook and you read

the title, which is generally the foods. It's just the foods that are in the recipe in like a certain order, right? And you might read this, this title and you see a word that you don't recognize. or that you don't know how to create like a chutney or what's the one that starts with a G that's like a grimalada. Isn't that a thing? So you see these words and you're like, I don't know what that means. I can't make this thing. And really all that is is a garnish.

And you could leave it out. You could leave it out or you could just be like, I know what parsley is. I'll put some of that on there. Like, and it'll sort of be fine. And when you begin to kind of recognize those building blocks and what recipe creators and developers and cookbook authors understandably are trying to do, which is they're trying to make the food look beautiful. I mean, you said it. It's like it's complicated to take a picture of like a casserole that's just brown unless you're

like, well, let's put microgreens on it, I guess. Nobody has microgreens in their house. But like that does photograph more beautifully. But when you're cooking your own food at home, that's not the point. And so sort of being able to kind of see that language and decode that. in those photographs, in those recipe titles and just be like, is this delicious? And can I make this? Do I recognize the general order of this without that garnish or whatever? Oh, yeah, I can make that. Like, it feels more accessible and more doable if you know what you're looking for.

Yeah. I have a lot of feelings about garnish because sometimes that fresh crunch is really important, like that topping. And sometimes it's not. So whenever I'm cooking, it's like I, you could always add a garnish, I think. But do you need to? probably not sometimes yes probably not what is something that you wish cooks did more maybe you as like a someone who doesn't follow peace can help me with this but i really have been thinking a lot about helping people not follow recipes to a tea um because i think on a lot of weeknights reading a recipe is just too much to ask for um and if you're following a recipe you're shopping for specific ingredients and then you're creating food waste and then you are stuck

with ingredients you don't know what to do with. So I really would I really hope that people use recipes as blueprints and not necessarily as something they have to follow really strictly. I don't know what that answer is. I try to do that with I dream of dinner, but I think as in when you're a new cook or a stressed out cook, you just want to like trust in someone's process. and hold on really tight. I don't know how you kind of like, what's the first step to unclenching, you know? Yeah.

Well, and also we've all had experiences where we did trust someone's process and then the recipe sucked. And you're like, oh, no. Oh, no. Can I, did they just have a bad day? Did I have a bad day? Should I never trust them again? It's like so complicated.

And I also think, you know, there are times both of us. I'm sure have, you know, we have cooked things like from the recipe. we have really followed the instructions, which I think the first time, maybe the first time you make something, it is really nice to be like, what was your intention here? But then you can adjust it next. You know, the next time you make it, like you can pay attention to what you care about or what you have access to or what your skills are, you know, what was on sale that week or whatever, what you can substitute. But like we for sure, like I want to honor. I mean, I'm friends with some recipe developers. Like I want to honor that process. Like it's a lot of work you guys do to create these recipes.

and make these instructions. And, you know, I don't want to dismiss those out of hand. And it's really also comforting to hear you say, like, there is a lot of freedom, too. Like, there's a lot of, um, your own like personality and needs and desires for that day that are just as valid in those instructions. And if they change those instructions to a point to not feel bad about that or to not feel, you know, insecure in those choices that you can, you can try to. something and if it doesn't work, you're not a trash person. It's okay, you know. I think when I was

it, well, I started learning when I was a kid, which is why like this whole how to start to learn to cook is very fuzzy to me. But I do remember like following a recipe and having a moment of like, why are they doing it this way? I want to switch it or I want to add this. And I think if you hear that in your head, like at least for my recipes, just do it because they are flexible enough that they, it might work, you know? And if it doesn't work, you know, and if it doesn't work, it's not my fault. Just kidding. Oh, my gosh, I love it. So I, I think I've told you this. I think I DM do this on Instagram, but you have a recipe in your book for like a lemon chicken soup. And anytime I tell my kids, they ask what's for dinner, which they ask before they eat breakfast, you know,

every single day, it was for dinner. And we don't, you know, you said that you're lazy about ingredient diversity. I am lazy about meal diversity. Like we eat the same general 20 things just over and over and over again. And I'm okay with that. We've been doing that for years and I'm I'm okay with that. But one of the one of the things I've learned is whatever I mean, I do enjoy the process of trying new things like for myself and cooking new things. And one of the things I've learned though is if I make something new, I have to give it a name that my kids can grab onto or else they'll be if I'm just like yeah we're just we're going to have we're going to have like it's kind it's kind of like a stir fry but like but it's not really it's if I do that they're out like right

away they're out they have to be able to hold on to something familiar or have a clever name and so what I was going to make your soup because I didn't have like any vegetable I like had no aromatics in my house other than onion and your recipe was so simple it was just like you just put the chicken in a pot and there's like you can put right it's just rice and chicken in a pot and then you put lemon in at the and I was like well this is magical and so and we were all sort of feeling under the weather it was like colds and so I said they were like what are we having for dinner and I said we're going to have feel better soup called it feel better soup because I was like I think that's what this is going to do for us it's going to make us feel better in our souls and then also there's just nothing like chicken soup

when you feel sick for your body. And so we still call it that even when we're not sick. I'm like we're having feel better soup. Because if I said we're having like whatever you named it, like lemon chicken, right soup or something, they're like, ew, I don't like lemon. I don't like raise. You know. So you're like an emotional staple in our house simply because of that recipe alone

because of feel better soup. Like I go to it all the time and they, they just like, there's just something so. beautifully comforting about your food. And I also didn't feel bad changing the name and telling you about it because I knew that that would matter to you. But it's like, I know, I'm glad you're making what it needs to be for you. I just always think about that story. Someone wrote to me and he was like, I just wanted to make sure that you're okay. We make your chicken, this chicken recipe and in our house, we call it Daddy's Chicken. And I just want to make sure that you're not upset that like, I have taken ownership of your chicken. And I was like,

I love that that chicken is daddy's chicken. Everybody needs a recipe called Daddy's Chicken. Their repertoire. That is so good. Oh, my gosh, that is so good. We'll be right back. So I would love, I have a few, too. And so maybe we can like ping pong back and forth.

But like what are some of your favorite, just simple dinner hacks? The first one that comes to mind is a recipe, which is my mom's chili, which is in I dream of dinner and I have grown up eating this food. And I think it just came from like, you know, the need for speed, but also comfort. It uses ketchup and salsa. It is not traditional. And it is so good. Like it is, it's going to be like everyone asked for this recipe. And it's always like, well, it's just like some ground turkey and salsa and ketchup and some cumin. But it's like the need for speed, but like with no compromising a flavor. in any way. I'm not going to lie to you. When I read that recipe, when I saw that recipe,

I was like, is it okay? It feels like a questionable choice. I haven't made it. I haven't made it. But I think like all my kids, save one really like ketchup. And so I'm kind of like, should I call it ketchup chili? Could I call it? Maybe they eat it if I call it ketchup chili. Like I have to do that, you know? But I did. I remember being like, I know. She's good at her job. I don't know what I think about this one. And I love that that's actually the person that my favorite.

It's obviously one of those things that like she just was like wanted to make chili and looked in her fridge and was like, what is close enough? And then it turned out to be really good because the ketchup replaces tomato paste, but it actually has more sweetness and it has that like viscous texture that you want in chili. So it actually is like so smart. But I agree with you. Like ketchup and chili is like what is going? on. And yet it's printed and people make it. And it's like, who knows? Like that's why it's so good to try. I mean, it's back to what you said before. It's like, try things. You know, like, it's okay to just be like, what do I have? Let's see. And sometimes it's trash. Sometimes it's fine.

And sometimes it ends up in a cookbook. Like, you just don't know what its journey's going to be. Okay. So your mom's, your mom's chili. I will say one of mine that's kind of a recent thing is just a jar of red curry paste is one of the most magical things because it does so much flavor work for you that you really don't have to do anything for it. I have a recipe called Sunshine Chili, not Sunshine Chili, Sunshine Chili. And it's basically it's called Sunshine Curry because of the color. Like it just feels like just really bright and golden and lovely because I just do coconut milk and the red curry paste and then like whatever. So like cauliflower, sweet potatoes or chickpeas or chicken or whatever.

And it's so like I can make it for lunch when I don't have a lunch. And it's literally done in like 15 minutes, maybe. And I just think that that's one of those ingredients that if you are not used to cooking with it or you have not been given instructions on how to use it, you're really scared of it. And it is such a little flavor bomb. Like it's just a magical little jar of something. So red curry paste.

And also if you're following recipe for green cream. curry paste, you can swap them out. They're definitely different profiles, but like they can be used in the same way. They totally can. Okay. What's another one for you? Another one, you have mentioned onions. And onions are one of those things that is like a roadblock to me. Like when a recipe starts with chop an onion and saute it, I am like, I think that's maybe too much for me. Like it's just, there's too much mess and I'm crying. And then to actually make it. onion sweet. You have to spend a lot of time and you have to pay attention. So I would say like if you have a personal roadblock, you can go around it. Like there's always a way to avoid that thing in the

kitchen. How do you avoid how do you avoid your onion your onion dilemma? Usually I just add more garlic but I also don't like chopping garlic. So so I'll either grate garlic on a microplane or I will smash it. But I like the point of onions is to build a base. So you you want to think about what other things can build that base. So maybe it's tomato paste, garlic, more fat, like more butter, something like that. I feel like a lot of people are like, oh, wait, I could just use more butter. Yeah. This is like a great call. I also know a lot of people have discovered like just frozen chopped onions. Like a lot of stores sell those now. So you at least don't have to do the chopping part. Like if you just want to dump it in a pan and that part's fine, that, you know,

you could do that. But I also for the garlic, um, those little frozen cubes, man. Yeah. Those frozen cute, they don't taste the same. Like they, they're not the same. Like, you can tell that they've been around a while. But when you don't have the time or the energy, like, it's not a significant enough difference in the end result that you should like sacrifice that and just say like, no, I'm not going to use these. So I love that one. Um, I would say that one of mine that is definitely like I understandably get pushback on this from a waste factor. And I totally get that. But I really do try to use and recycle these things as much as possible.

But I really love to line my sheet pans with foil or parchment paper, depending on what I'm making. Because I hate washing dishes. And I especially hate scrubbing a sheet pan that has fat. baked onto it. And it's like impossible. Like it's just my worst nightmare. So I just, anytime I can line something,

I line it and it makes things so much easier. Because it's like if your road, that's how I've gotten around my roadblock. If your roadblock is onions, mine is for sure the cleanup. Like that's why we do so many one pot things, one pan things because I just really, I just really hate wanting.

I will say too in my book, I debated a lot about whether to say to line sheet pans or not because you do get more browning if you don't use it. But it's really just about what your priority is in that moment. I go back and forth personally, like whether I really think it's worth it or not. I feel rich when I have a cooked grain in my kitchen, in my fridge, meaning like I have some time to kill and I put a big pot of water, salted water on the on the stove, and I add like some faro or wheat berries, cook them until they're tender, drain them, and then stick them in the fridge. And then you have like fast starch for lunch, for salads, or you warm it up as a side. I also even do it with white rice.

Like if you cook it like pasta and drain it, it won't get clumpy. And then you can just kind of like warm it up for dinner. And like you just, sometimes grains just take way too large. And so if you do it while you're doing something else and then you stick it in the fridge, you have food so fast. Food so fast. Gosh, we love food so fast. I also think with grains, like, there is something really complete about a meal that has some sort of carb or grain in it. And if it doesn't have that, like, you could, you know, you could like, I think about salmon, like salmon, like, salmon cook so fast. And my kids, like, kind of eat salmon and my grandma and my grandma, my grandma.

She's not my grandmother. She's my mother-in-law, two different people, because my mother-in-law is legit Japanese. She has this amazing recipe for salmon. And so, like, you can make it. So even from frozen, like, it can go really, really quickly and, like, some spinach, like, with sesame oil or something really quick. That can be cooked in seven minutes flat. But if I put just the salmon and spinach on a plate and I don't have, like, some really beautiful white rice with it, it is a completely different meal. Like it just feels different. So that's why I love that you said, you feel rich. You feel rich when you have a cookie grain waiting for you in the fridge. Oh, that's so good. That's so good. I think one that I will just bring up again that I have shared many,

many times in this space, but it's my final one is I love a dirty dishes zone where there's just one place. Now granted, this is, this is relative based on the size of your kitchen. And, you know, like if, for example, like right now, you're, you're living in a van with a van kitchen. So like your dirty dishes zone is like, well, that's not super a thing in the way that it might be if you were in an apartment or a house or something. But that, like, just knowing that the dirty dishes, not just from when I'm cooking, but like when my, my kids snacks, like all that stuff, that there is one place on the counter that they go always. That's where everybody knows that they go.

So when it's time to clean up, it's all right there. But if I don't clean up right away, it doesn't feel like everything is just like covered, right? Like all the dirty dishes are in one place and they can wait there until I get to them. And it, and it's fine. So I just,

I love my dirty dishes. That's so smart. Is it a bin or it's just a spot? So it's just a spot. And I have, but I have recommended to people who might have like a small. smaller, like a more narrow counter or just like more limited counter space to have like a little bin to have like a don't make it clear, make it opaque so that you don't have to see in the

inside because it just visually makes it less messy. But if you just have one spot and I would say people sometimes said like, could it be your sink. And I think it, it like could be. But then you have to pull it all out to like run the water, which is like defeat the whole purpose. So I, I like, we have a spot on the counter or you can put it in a. Ben and it's just really nice that it's got its little it's got its little place that's so smart there's there's a point so every day I cook all day right like I cook dinner food all day long and there's always a point in the day where I look up and every single surface is covered with something dirty like just 360 and I'm just like now what like so your idea is great you would need a real big

zone. I think with your job, you would need like another kitchen for your zone. Oh, man. Okay. Do you have any other, any other final little hacks you want to share with it? I would say, I guess I'm really in the fast starch zone right now because I do agree that like you kind of need a vegetable is negotiable, but a starch I think is essential. 100%. Um, but those store bought shelf stable nukki. So they're not like homemade pillowy ricotta yoki they are kind of to me they're like um a gummy bear that you can eat for dinner um they're really chewy and you don't have to boil water to cook them you can just brown them in a pan and you know i've made recipes with them that are kind of like pasta but honestly i just love them as like a chewy side like even dipped in ketchup and mustard they're kind of

like a french fry gummy bear situation but they're just like they're so lovable and very um tempting and very fast so uh you know we have show notes for our episodes and we also have a an email that goes out every other week that's called the latest lazy listens and it's uh just kind of like a like a robust recap of the last couple of and i'm i i cannot wait to put as one of the uh episode summary bullet points. Shell stable noki are like a gummy bear you can eat for dinner. And also a vegetable of negotiable, a starch is essential. You guys, Allie is the best.

Oh, I can't. I can't handle it. I can't. I'm telling all my truths today. Okay. Are you not obsessed with Allie? I'm so obsessed with Allie. We will put links to Ali's book and to the Instagram, her own Instagram account,

but especially to the New York Times one where she has like a ton of recipes and videos. We'll put those in the show notes. And be sure that you sign up for the latest lazy listens so that you can have written out so you'll never forget the phrase, a vegetable is negotiable and a starch is essential. Like, she is just so fantastic. I'm so glad she came on the show. And I hope this episode was encouraging to you. Thank you so much for listening.

And until next time, be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. I'm Kendra. I'll see you next week. Have you ever felt like you are living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough.

Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.