The Lazy Genius Podcast - #4: Giving Up On Perfect with Mary Carver

Episode Date: May 24, 2016

Funny, honest, and a real Lazy Genius, Mary and Kendra have a conversation about kids, goals, marriage, and everything in between. Sometimes it's hard to be a person, and Mary gets that. She also makes you feel okay for not liking it all the time. Where to find Mary: Mary's blog: Giving Up on Perfect Mary's Instagram: @marycarver Mary's Facebook: /givinguponperfect Mary's book: Choose Joy This podcast is hosted by Kendra Adachi and executive produced by Kendra Adachi, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Hey, lazy geniuses. I'm Kendra Adachi, and you're listening to the Lazy Genius Podcast. Here, we help you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things you don't. This is Season 1, Episode 4. And my guest today is author, blogger, and general funny person, Mary Carver.

When I asked Mary to be on the podcast, she said, I'm feeling a little short on the genius lately. And I thought, man, are we all? So in this episode, Mary and I just talk about how hard it is to be a person. And there are some real life nuggets that come out, some of which I still remember daily, weeks after our conversation. Mary is such a delight, and I know you're going to enjoy her so much. Tell me who you are, Mary Carver. Okay, well, I am a writer and blogger. I'm a mom and a wife.

I blog at Giving Up on Perfect.com. My first official real published book that I'm a co-author of just came out in January. My husband and I have been married for almost 17 years. 17. Because I was married as a child, obviously. And our daughters are two and eight. Okay. So let me ask you, was the difference?

Because six years is not quite as common of an age difference in kids. Right. Was that a planned difference? Well, no. It was my first daughter. Her delivery, her birth was very, very traumatic. I had, I developed severe preeclampsia. And as my mom likes to say, I almost died.

Moms love to say things like that, don't they? Yes, yes. Which is true, but just feels silly for me to say on my own behalf. Guys, I need to tell you something. It's awesome. I mean, it's not awesome that you almost died. That she is the mouthpiece of the truth of what happened is that you almost died. Wow, that is, that's really traumatic.

Yeah, it really was. And so getting pregnant again was just not appealing. Yeah. You know, I was scared. And then we had lots of years of lots more years of no money. And like we just felt like it was all we could handle. And then finally we're like, you know what? Okay, let's, we don't want Annalin to be an only child.

So now that there's anything wrong with that, but that's not what we wanted for our family. So we decided to try, which is, is there anything more awkward than saying we're trying? I mean, did you, okay, segue. For a side note, for a quick second. Did you ever see the Brady Bunch Christmas special when they were all grown up when No. Bobby was a race car driver? No, I have not seen this. Okay. I feel, I'm starting to feel a little bad using this as like a comparison to your

situation because it's the Brady Bunch Christmas special. But you also like television and things. You're speaking my language. Right. I feel like this could work. So, okay, so there's this I don't remember when it came out. It doesn't really matter. But it was the, the whole cast came back, except for Cindy. It doesn't matter. Who cares? It was a special and the thing that Bobby became a race car driver. And of course, everyone was like super worried about him because like, what if he gets hurt?

And he was really good and all these things. But one of the like B stories was Jan and her hut, poor Jan. Jan and her husband were having trouble having a baby. And so I just remember watching it. I think it came out when I was, I mean, I was, I was not a grown person. And I remember feeling so awkward when, like, they didn't show them trying to have a baby, but they talked about it. And they talked about like, well, we need to like set the mood. And they went on a cruise. And they like, we're like, okay, no, we're just going to be like, like super scientific about it. And like they, they, they were trying to show, I guess the reality of that whole thing, which Kassna had that too. Like we, we tried for, for our old. oldest, it took me over a year and a half to get pregnant with Sam, which for some people is like a drop in the bucket. They try way longer than that. But it was a, it was an eternity. It felt like an absolute eternity. But I remember it's like a 12 year old being like, I don't, I don't understand

what's happening. Like what are they trying to? Like, why can't they accomplish this? Like, why do they keep talking about trying? And then everyone's awkward. And it was, and it's the Brady bunch as grownups. It was so bizarre. It was so bizarre. So I just likened that whole story to your situation and I'm going to go die now. But yeah, it's the worst thing to say is that you're trying. Right, right. So, and really, I mean, it was nothing like, I mean, we just weren't preventing.

Right. Anyway, we decided that it was time for us to, you know, have another baby and we didn't. And then we continued to not have another baby. And it wasn't anything that we were really pursuing, like relentlessly. This is getting better and better. I think you just asked me. Something so unrelated to this awkward answer. I'm so happy right now.

The point is once we decided that we didn't want to just have one child, it didn't just happen. And so we finally got to the point where like, you know what, that's okay. We're going to be a family of three. And that's how it is. And that's great. You know, three musketeers, whatever. And then, of course, I got pregnant. Of course.

So all that to say. No, the six-year gap was not planned, but it is perfect for us. Because I am heavy on the lazy, light on the genius when it comes to parenting. I mean, you know, sometimes there's genius moments. But having a little helper with a newborn was awesome. I'm sure. I'm about to have our third. in like five minutes.

And that's what it feels like. And my boys are six and four. And Sam is the oldest. And he's like, he's ready, man. Like he's geared up. Like if there's a, if he could wear a big brother uniform,

he would be wearing it. Oh, because he's so ready. And I thought, because I've been really terrified. Like, I don't, I mean, okay,

I'm just going to say it. I don't always really like being a mom. Like, it's fine. It's just not my, it's not. it's not my favorite the little people like being a mom of little people is it just wears me slap out and um and and and so i've been thinking like oh my word third another one like the number of times

I'm like oh I hate this oh let's just add another human person to the equation right who's like little and can't do anything for themselves that's perfect um but that's one thing that I've been really grateful for is um is how excited same is to help and it looks like it there will be six years apart and that's what your girls are and that's like what a great thing because he's already like I'll go get diapers for you what do you need mom like I'll go get it and it's like this is magic this is magical it has really it has really been awesome now I will say two years into it life is a little different and I've had to start saying I don't know if you happen to see it. I posted on Facebook that

Anna Lynn is so bossy and so up in my business and all over her sister that every time she starts acting like the mom I feel like I feel like being Robin on how I met your mother

and saying nobody asked you Patrice because it just like I think I've gotten to the point where like she's it's just built gradually over the last two years about like the balance has shifted as far as how much of her help I need. Right. And versus how much she,

how much input she thinks that she deserves to have. Right. Pump the break. Right. And so, you know, for her, like she's just doing what she's been doing.

And I'm like zero to psycho in three seconds because I don't, I don't need her. I don't need her opinion on what to give the toddler for a snack, you know? Right. Or I've started telling her like, stop creating problems because she'll say, Adrian, do you want to ride in the big fancy car card to the grocery store? And I'm like, no. Have I ever pushed you in that car?

I don't do that. You can't offer things that I have to approve. Please stop causing problems. My, yes, Sam will, um, okay, so my four-year-old is in preschool a couple days a week. And he loves like, he loves being there. He hates getting there. He, every morning, it's like, I won't go school. And I'm thinking, you, but you do.

Like, I think you're just doing a bit. Like, I really think you actually do like going. And I've talked to his teachers and he runs right in and says hi to his friends. And I mean, he's fine. I just think he likes doing this little bit. morning. But if I don't say anything, like if I don't really bring it up, like, okay, are you excited about going to school today? Like, of course he's going to be like, you know, like turn into a grump. So if I don't say anything, it's not really an issue. Well, Sam, my oldest,

likes to make issues of all the things. And so he'll do that. He'll, he'll cause these problems where he'll come in the room and he's like, hey, Ben, do you want to go to school today? You really should because school is a wonderful thing. And he'll, he'll cause. And he'll come in the room. He'll like go on this like speech like to convince him of something that he doesn't even need convincing of. And like, see him. Stop talking. Stop talking. Like shut your mouth.

And he does it. And he does it to like, you know, I don't know why he does it. I haven't quite figured out what his motivation is. But then of course, Ben's like, oh, no, one. It's cool. And then it starts the whole thing. And it's like, guys, this is a delicate balance that we are trying to strike here. Please stop creating more work for me.

I don't have it in me. Right, right. Well, and the thing is that I have, I'm now discovering at this, at this stage of their, of their lives is that Annalin is realizing how often parents lie to their kids. You know, when I say things like, oh, sorry, Adrienne, we can't watch Mickey Mouse Clubhouse right now. Mickey's got to take a nap. Right. You know, and she's like, Mickey take nap. Mickey take nap.

You know, she's totally fine. Right. And Annalin's like, what? What just happened here? Dispicious. Yep. Yep. So, you know, or I'll say, we don't have whatever, you know, whatever it is she wants.

And Annalon's like, Mom, it's in the fridge. Right. I'll do that with screen time because I am, I am not that parent who, I mean, bless those that are. I don't know how you survive without your kids ever, like, watching anything or having an iPad. It's, it's. It's it. I don't understand it. So whenever we have screen time, um, but sometimes it's like, okay, the little one when he gets his, the big one is already done. It's a beautiful day outside. Or we're going to like, I need to go to Target. We just don't have time for screen time today or

whatever it is. And so the little one will spin will say, you know, mom can't have the iPad and I'm like, oh, it's broken, bud. Sam just finished playing with it. Like they just finished. But it's not, yeah, it's exactly. It's like, I just can't. Now, I'm not going to lie to him like that when he's old enough to know I'm lying to him. But at that point, it's like, you know what? My sanity and us getting milk before you guys freak out at dinner because there's no milk is more important than having a teachable moment about the iPad right now. I just don't have it in me.

It's 415. The world is exploding. And so I'll say like, I'm sorry, buddy, it's broken. We're going to go to Target and then go play outside. And seems like, Mom, it's not broken. I just played with it. Like, again. shut your face.

Right. Don't say anything else. I'm so glad I'm not the only parent who does that. You are not the only parent. And here's a question for you. You know, okay, on the topic of shut your face

because my eight-year-old, well, okay, we all, my house is very, we like to talk here. Cool. And my husband talks a lot.

I talk a lot. So, of course, our girls never shut up. Right. But often I need them to. And my eight-year-old, like we have basically since I got pregnant and the world stopped because I got pregnant and I have not, I have not been not exhausted or not distracted since then.

You know, so for the last three years, we've had this problem with her back talk, disrespect, just her mouth. Right. And I don't, I don't know what to say to her. Because we have. We say lots of words. So to make an impact, to get her to shut her face. I have been at a loss of like, what is the parenting phrase? Because I have resorted, and I hate this, but I have resorted to even say, Alan, shut up. A few times, especially over like the last months. It's just I've gotten so frustrated.

And then I feel so terrible because I don't, I mean, I just don't want to say that particular phrase. Sure. Yeah. What is it? What's the magic word? Oh, my word. I think the magic word is there isn't a magic word.

It's so hard. It's like I just actually just finished. Before I was talking to you, I was talking to Chad Smith, Michaelin's husband, the Nestor's husband. Yes. And, you know, they have three teenage boys, like actual teenage men boys. Oh, my gosh. It's so hard for me to assist. that in my brain because I've never seen her in person with her boys. Right. No, they're like real. They're like real and

tall and like have voices and stuff. Like they talk like people. It's it's like deep voices. Yeah. Yeah. They do. And so, um, weird. So I was talking to him and and it was, um, you know, it's, it's a very different, understandably, a very different conversation about parenting when you're talking to someone who really has parented for a long time. And their kids are kind of like on the way out versus you're in like the death zone. It's like, okay, everybody. Everybody, it's like,

it's like tornado drills all the time. Oh my gosh. It's like we're always in a natural disaster. And so I, it's so funny, like having this conversation on the tail end of having that conversation because I, in equal parts, in equal parts in my,

the deepest part of my soul, I believe so much in validating our children. in letting them know that they are people and that their feelings and their thoughts and their words matter. And then I'm going to listen to them and that we have a relationship. And it's not about them being obedient and doing what I want them to do. I mean, those are, those are transformational things that change how I see my kids. But then there are days. There are absolutely days where I'm like, I am going to throw, literally throw out the window. Or I'm going to leave you in a school. car to Target and I'm just going to drive away and someone can have you. Like, it's fine. I just can't do it

anymore. And having those two realities exist in the same person, sometimes in the same second is a really unsettling part of humanity. I don't know how to reconcile it. It's just like right now you can't see me, but like my arms are kind of like squirreling up like I just saw like a car crash. Like it's so uncomfortable to have those two things exist because there's no, you know, there's no right answer. Like there's no answer. There's no answer to any parenting problem because there are far too many variables. And yet we just want, we just want an answer. Just give me the magic phrase. It's going to make me. It could be quiet for 10 minutes. And then and we it's like insane people. You know, like you do the same thing. I know, hoping for a different result. And I'm like, I know that a phrase isn't going to, it might work once. Right. But like it won't work again. Like it's not going to work again.

And yet in my heart, I believe like if I could just find that one like a safe word. Exactly. Right. Right. Right. And it's just, it's so funny that we get, um, I find myself spinning my wheels about things like that, like finding the magic phrase, finding the magic formula for certain things to. to make my kids do what I needed to do. And it saps so much of my energy.

Yet when they don't do what I want them to do, it also saps my energy just differently. Yes. And I haven't decided which sapping I'm most comfortable sitting in for the longest amount of time. Right. Right. Well, and the tricky thing is, to me, the tricky part of that is every once in a great while, there is a magic trick. Yeah.

And sure, it might. Well, well, I will say, okay, so it's not magic. But with my older daughter, I did find when she was little, that speaking of us using all the words, like, I had to talk her through all of our transitions. Because, you know, for kids, a lot of kids, transitions are really hard. You know, leaving somewhere, going somewhere. And so if I just said, okay, let's go, like it was meltdown city and I would have to haul her, you know, to the car, screaming like I'm kidnapping her, which is fun. Right. Which, you know, still happens with my two-year-old now.

But anyway, but if I were to say, okay, Ellen, we're going to get ready to leave in five minutes. And then, okay, you've got two more minutes to play. and then okay it's time to go first we're going to put on your shoes and then we're going to put on your jacket would you like to put on your jacket or do you want me to put on your jacket you know the whole like the whole thing you know the talking her through transitions and giving her two choices that end up with the same results you know those those things have worked yeah yeah now as an eight year old she actually does still need a little bit of that but we need new tricks You know, so I, like, she has a list of tasks to accomplish. I don't want to say chores because it includes, it includes like brush your teeth. Right. But, you know, morning tasks, evening tasks that kind of help us stay a little sane and and yell a little bit less.

But yeah, I also have to say every single day on the way home from school, okay, when we get home, I need you to go potty and wash your hands and then empty your backpack. can put it away. Because if I don't say it, right, it doesn't happen. And even if you do say it, what is it about kids and washing their hands? Like my children, yeah, my, my kids act like I'm kicking them out of the house. Right. When I asked them to wash their hands. And like, you've been around dozens of nasty children today. Yeah. And you, I don't think you've washed your hands. Don't, please don't bring that into my house. It's like, this whole thing. I don't understand why I have to have the same fight every single day above the same thing.

Well, and then sometimes she'll say, yeah, I did it. I said, really? Let me see your hands. Oh, I forgot. I'm like, this is a thing you're going to lie about. Like, I mean, kids are going to lie and we're going to deal with it and it's going to be a learning opportunity, blah, blah, blah. But this is where you're going to make that choice. Right. Come on. Right. Save it for something big. You know, I'll save it for something big. Oh, that's so good. You know, I'm wondering, because it's not, it's not always just about being, this doesn't always just apply to being a parent. I just think like we, we have this. I think everyone's doing it better than I am. Like everyone's doing everything there is to do in the universe better than I could do everything in the universe, except maybe talk. about Bennett Cumberbatch. I could do that with the best of them. But for like the important things, like I really do feel like everyone has this figured out except for me. And everybody feels that way. Like even the people who come off as confident, every single person feels like they're not doing it as well as they could be. And I think you're right. Like it's not for me. Okay. So my best friend likes to tell me,

quite often that I need to get off Facebook. Oh. But what she really means is that she needs to get off Facebook. Explain this to me, please. Well, because we were just different, you know, like we process things differently. And so for me, when I see someone who posts, I don't know, about their awesome anniversary getaway or their latest promotion. I just rolled my eyes so hard at anniversary getaway.

And it's not because that person. is not allowed to take one. It's because we don't do that. Exactly. And so I'm like, oh, those dummies putting importance on something like that. And then deep down, I'm like, I would have gone on an anniversary to get away. Exactly, exactly. So I see those things.

So for her, if she sees those things, I think it makes her feel bad about herself. Like, oh, they have this and I don't. But for me, it's more like I could totally do. that if I were to just apply myself. If I just worked harder, for me it's about like my biggest fear in life is not living up to my potential. And my parents, God bless them, loved me so much that they told me my entire childhood that I could do anything I wanted to do. And it scarred me for life. because I believe that I can do anything I want to do. If I just work hard enough, if I just follow the steps,

if I just do what I'm completely capable of doing, my parents said I could. So therefore I can. Is there something that you want to do, like actually want to do that's worth the steps? Oh, well, I mean, I, yes. I mean, I want to lose. weight. I want to have a master's degree. I want to have a job with a title. I want to,

I don't want to do these steps, but I do want to have a large family where when my kids are adults, they love their siblings and they hang out a little time, maybe like the Bravermans. Right. Of course. We all want to be like the Bravermans. Like, I don't want to take the steps required for that one. Right. But yeah. And so when I see people doing this, I'm like, well, I mean, if they can do it, I can do it. Not like I'm comparing, like, they're not making me feel bad about myself because of, I don't know, it's just, I put all this pressure on myself and I could get off of Facebook and I would still do that.

because I would still see someone at the grocery store or at church or whatever and be like, that's right. Congratulations on your latest degree. I forgot. I wanted to do that. And I still haven't. Does that, wamp.

Right. Does that like, because that's really, that's really interesting to me. And I'm, I'm trying to, um, process. that. I'm going to, I'm about to process that out loud because I'm a verbal processor. I hear a lot the whole like, yeah, you see that it's a comparison thing. That's my, that's my struggle. And I know a lot. I've never heard anyone say that it's about not reaching your potential, that you have this like deeply embedded belief that you can do all these things, which of, you know, of course you can do these things. Like, you're a super awesome, competent, really smart person. Like there are lots of things. you could do. And that's true of like, to a certain degree. I mean, like, I'm not going to win the voice. You know what I mean? Like, there are things. I'm not going to beat wrong. Right. Exactly. Like, you have to be a little bit realistic. But like, there are things that, that, that we can do. Yeah, if we just kind of like, as they say, like set your mind to it or whatever. I think I just,

I've never heard anyone say it that way about potential. I think my problem, though, is I don't, the thought of setting my mind to something and having to commit my mind to something and the steps required to do something over like those tiny steps every day to, you know, is my worst nightmare. Like I don't even have, like my brain just goes, hey, Kendra, we're going to go watch once upon a time, just shut it down. We're not going to even think about this right now. Don't get up, buty. Right.

And part of me, you know, I wonder sometimes, like, is that, I mean, and I don't mind when my brain tells me to go watch once upon the time. I'm like, okay, Captain Hook, I'm here. Like, it's cool. Like, it's not, I'm not complaining. But at the same time, sometimes I wonder, like, what's the truth in that? Like, what is the real? what's the real part of my soul like is does my soul really is it really okay for me to just go watch

captain hook like is it okay that i don't i really don't have this strong motivation to complete all of these things that i see other people wanting to do like is it okay for me to be okay being okay you know like to just be like in the middle and that's fine or is it is it a fear thing you know like it can be one of the two and they look the same. That's true. I don't know how to tell them apart, Mary. Right. Yes.

How to tell them apart? I think, I mean, I think at the end of the day, like you know, if you feel peace, like, you know, there's a difference between convincing yourself, you're okay and really being okay. Although, I mean, I think some of us with various issues get. to be really, really good at persuading ourselves of one thing or another. But I think, I mean, gosh, there are so, I just read a blog post the other day that was all about how it's okay to be small. It's okay to, you know, the every day is beautiful. You know, we aren't called to be great. Only Jesus is great.

that whole movement that I think people are realizing that some of us are wired one way and some of us are wired another way. That's okay. Yeah. And I think too that it's different seasons. I mean, I don't know. I say the word seasons a lot, but it's been so encouraging and reassuring to me to understand the concept of seasons. I think as a mom of little kids, like, okay, It's, this isn't forever. And I won't feel so scatterbrained and exhausted forever. Please God, tell me it won't be forever. You know, convincing myself.

So if I can't, if I can't accomplish X, Y, and Z right now, that's okay. And I'm going to learn how to be okay with that. So then maybe it looks like, you know, like, oh, you know what? This is my day and it's small and it's quiet or it's not quite. quiet, but it's messy and it's still beautiful and that's okay. And maybe that's just how I feel for a season. Right. I mean, and I'm speaking in generalities because that's not really me. Like, I try that. Isn't that? That is that I feel like that is the, um, that is the essence of kind of the like Christian lady blog world. Right.

is we say all of these beautiful things. And then we're like, I mean, but I'm just saying them. You know that, right? Right. I'm speaking to myself as well as to you. Right. I mean, sometimes they happen naturally and it's wonderful. And then sometimes they 100% do not.

And I think that's, you know, that's why I love even just the name of your blog giving up on perfect. It's like, you know what? I just, this is not a fight. I can win. Like, why am I trying to win this fight? Right. Because it's, I'm just going to, it's going to kill me. It's just going to end up killing me. I may look awesome when I die, but like it's just going to end up killing me. Right. So like what? I don't know that that's really the tradeoff. But it is so it's, I feel like this is a conversation. This is a thread that is in so many conversations that I have with so many of my friends where it's like, we want to. stop trying so hard. Like we just want to be like, you know what? I'm just going to, I want to be

lazy about this. This is not important anymore. And that's okay. But then we go to Target to get a block of cheese. And the lady in front of us is like, do you remember in, you watched the office, right? You're an office person when in season, I think it was one. Was her name Amy? No, her actual name was Amy when Amy Adams was came and she was selling handbags okay in the office do you remember when she like it Michael called she was red head she was a red head and she was really beautiful and um and jim liked her like jim asked her out and michael called her Pam 2.0 yes and i remember my heartbreaking so hard for Pam like oh to have like never say that to a human person right but when you go to Target and you're standing there with your block of cheese and your little like, you know,

like white rhinoceros that's, you know, was on the in cap that you think is just so cute in your house. And basically in front of you, like is Kendra 2.0? Yes. And it's like, oh, dang it. Like it's like all of the sudden, all of that mental work you just did to stop trying sort of just gets sucked out. Yes. Because for me, I look at, I look at Mary 2.0 and I remember, remember, it is possible. Right. Because I don't see what she's failing at. Exactly.

That's the thing. It's all a trade-off. Yeah. You know, and that's what my husband and I have talked about a lot that we talked about in the career arena because he works very long hours and he works nights. And the trade-off is he makes good money. And so I can stay home and kind of follow my dreams of writing or whatever. Because somebody has to not just take care of the kids because, I mean, my kids are not at home right now. But somebody has to make the house run.

Right. You know? And so for him to be gone all the time, you know, I need to be here to do that, at least part of the time. And so we've talked about how like, so mostly men we see who make crazy amounts of money so they can live in beautiful houses. The trade-off is, you know, they might be doctors or whatever, and they're gone even more than he is. And they're always on call or, you know, yeah, maybe they get to go on these great trips,

but that's literally the only time during the year they see their kids. Right. Not, I mean, I am generalizing, but, you know, there's a trade-off. And so, you know, we've talked about it for me. when I, like, graduated high school, went to college, graduated college. Like, I, I anticipated a lifetime of, like, wear suits and heels, get the corner office type of career. Obviously, I am not doing that. And at this rate, like, I probably, you know, I probably never will.

And that's okay. Because the tradeoff is I realized, oh, this thing about women having it all, you can, but you can't have it all at the same time. And, like, I'm only going to be 37 once. Right. So when I'm 37, what part do I want? What part of all do you want?

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it's not potty training, but that's what I've got. That's the reality right now. Yeah. But I also have a book launch, you know. Yeah. So I can't, like, I can't complain about it because we've chosen where we are.

But so when I see Mary 2.0 and I see her having the part of the all that she has is the part I don't have. Right. It reminds me, oh, it's totally possible for me to do that. I could have that. And I forget about what I already have. Yeah. Aw isn't something we need to travel for. It's something waiting for us in everyday life, whether in a city street or a moment with a work of art.

I'm Dr. Keltner, host of the Science of Happiness podcast. Join me for Cities of Aw, a special series on how our public spaces can spark awe, wonder, and enhance the quality of public life. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts. And I don't know about what she does. and have exactly we don't know what she's giving up in order to have yeah like that's something i've been um thinking about a lot lately actually is is this concept of of exchanges um and trades like like in your own life in your own soul um even simply things like okay so i i abhor cleaning my house oh i mean i don't know that anyone really loves it but like i i really really hate it to the point

where I don't do it. And I don't have the money to hire someone to do it for me. So we just live in a dirty house. Like it's picked up. They're like the, you know, the things I do every day because it's a trick. It looks clean is if you clear off your surfaces,

like if your kitchen is like if your, if your dishes are like generally put away, if your surfaces are cleared and your floors are swept, you're good. Like, like if I sweep around the dining room table, like sweep up the dried ice and, you know,

kind of thing. Like, I don't, it's not like the entire floor. It's like like the kitchen. Like if the kitchen is swept and then where we normally live, like the surfaces are clean, the house looks awesome. It is not clean. Please don't eat off my floor. Please don't expect things. Like I don't remember the last time I touched a baseboard, much less like real simple tells me. I should clean them every three months. That is unrealistic. So, um, so I hate it so much. The point is though, sometimes it has to be done. You know, like sometimes you have to do the things you hate. And so I have thought like, okay, the exchange here for me, because when I finish cleaning and everything's like kind of shiny and it smells like, you know, a forest and like the good

part of a forest and you get to use like the, Mary, the amount of many that I've spent on Mrs. Myers products that are on sale. You know, it's like a target where it's like you buy four and you get $5 a $5 card. I'm like, yeah, baby. And I buy it. I still have them all. I feel like 16 bottles of cleaning stuff because I don't clean. I'm like, why don't keep buying this crap?

I'm not going to, I don't use it often enough to merit like the special. Like, you work. Oh my gosh. I have. We are the same. It's so bad how much I have in my closet. And then I have to store it. It's so stupid.

It's so. stupid but the point the point i'm saying trying to make is that um just thinking about the exchange aspect of it like sometimes the feeling i have when i'm finished cleaning is worth the cleaning on some days it's worth it on some days it is not um it is absolutely not it's like i you know and i have one thing i've gotten over and i'm so glad i've gotten over this is apologizing especially to my husband when i don't do the things that i think i should have done during the day. Like if he comes home and I'm so sorry, honey, I just had like the worst day. And I just needed to vet, you know, like I would go on this really long speech. And he never is bothered by it.

He's like, why are you telling me this? Like, I don't care. Like it doesn't bother me at all. Not like I don't care how you feel. Like, I don't care that you didn't vacuum. I didn't know you were going to vacuum. Like, I wasn't expecting you to vacuum. Like, it's not a problem. And so I'm so glad that I'm being, I have the gift of a husband who doesn't make me feel badly for not doing things properly. And I don't have to apologize for it. And it also just makes me realize that that is not the norm. You know, like, there are a lot of people who, who have that pressure on themselves because it's not just their own pressure. Yeah. They're living in that pressure. And I don't know how to always even comprehend that, much less speak to that. They might go to counseling. Right. I do

that anyway. Counseling is so good. I love therapy. Yeah, Mark and I see a marriage counselor, and that has, it's funny you bring this up because that has been our recent conversation without going into the whole thing. It's about expectations. Hmm. Because, you know, like I said, like he works these long, crazy hours. And so I stay home. And that was like, it was an actual, like, when he took this job, change, I quit my job. And at the time, it seems like an easy decision because I hated my job. I was underemployed. I was doing something that like a recent college grad could do. And I'd been working for many years. It was a needed a job to pay the bills situation. Right. After I got, I got laid off when I was pregnant. Oh, wow. So I had worked there because we had to pay the bills for

three years and then he got this job where he made significantly more but was going to be gone significantly more and at the same time my almost three-year-old had learned she was learning about anatomy at daycare cool and saying words I'm like oh oh no you don't have one of those why are you saying this word to me what is happening and so I'm all that kind of culminated at the same time. And so the exchange was he's going to take this job and I'm going to quit mine. And I will stay home with Anna Lynn. Hmm.

But over the years, I realized, A, what I suspected all along that I would make a lousy stay-at-home mom is true. Cool. I love to work and I need to work. And so I have added. more and more part-time jobs and freelance gigs and different things to my plate. And then we added another child. All the while, I've done all these different work type things, but only part-time and often from home. And he's still working a lot.

And then there's still all this home stuff that needs to be done. And I hate it all. Right. It's all the worst. And so like you, I'm like, I hate. hate doing it, so I'm just not going to do it because I've got other things to do that I like doing. Right. And apparently I'm a child because it just seems that simple in the moment.

I know. In the moment, it makes so much sense. I could do what I hate doing or I could do what I like doing. Right. Right. Right. And so we've really struggled with expectations on both our parts. Yeah.

And, you know, now, of course, we're doing like kind of the deeper work of like, where do these expectations come from? Sure. Which ones can we let go of? And, you know, when do we have to choose the thing we hate just to make the other person sane? Because that's a thing. That is an actual real life thing, whether, no matter what your, what your stage of

life or situation is, like, if you are in close relationship with someone, whether it's a spouse or a friend or a parent or whatever, yeah, there are times. when you have, not you have to choose. Sometimes it feels like you have to. But that's part of being in relationship with someone is that you choose the thing that makes that person feel valued or that it's important to them. It's not important to you simply because it's important to them. And that is that is like, oh, Mary, it's such a pain.

It is a pain. But I tell you what, if I would have realized that 16 years ago. For real, right? Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I actually told we just, we were, we had a counseling appointment last week. And there was something. Oh, I know what it was.

So we had, so a couple weeks ago, a couple, no, couple months ago. We went to counseling. We only go every couple months. And I said, well, I'm just not feeling connected with Mark. And our counselor, God bless him, said, well, you just need to go on more dates. You need to have date night. You guys are in the thick of it with, you know, this busiest time of your life. You need to.

And I'm like, oh, my gosh, why did I even open my mouth? Because we've gone through this before. Right. Like, that's his only solution for us. Is date night. Is date night. Can I say how much I hate date night? Oh, my gosh.

I mean, it's so expensive. So expensive. Oh, my word. We were, like, that's why we don't ever do anything. And even the other day, we discovered that Jim Gaffigan is coming to our town. Oh, my gosh. on his standard tour and we were like, oh, we never got on a date. This, we, this is worth it.

Like, we want to go see Jim Gaffigan. And then Codz pulled up the tickets and like the, the worst possible tickets were like $69 for one ticket. Yeah. Which I am not saying Jim Gaffigan is not worth that much money. He is 100% worth every penny. Oh my gosh. I love him so much. But we were like, we were doing the math.

It was like, okay, so two tickets. And then there's like the fees, like all the tickets. So really, it's like 80 bucks a ticket. We have to pay a sitter. I mean, I guess we should go to dinner first, right? It was like $400. By the time the time it was over. And then we're like, no, let's just order a pizza and watch Mr.

Universe on Netflix. It's cool. Right. It's pretty much the same thing. Like, no, I get it. Like, date nights. Like, I love, that's one of those things, like people with our anniversary trips. Like when people have regular date nights, I'm like, we.

But if we had the ability, I would love. to, you know, like if we had the funds, if we had the time. Like, I think that would be really great. But I do see what you're saying that like, that is not, that's not the fix. No. That's not the connection fix. No. So I had found this article, um, this blog post about, okay, so it's called, hold on, I'm going to pull it up. It's right in front of me. Marital intimacy is more than sex. Five ways to connect with your spouse. Now it sounds like it could be real cheesy, but actually it was so good. I was like, oh, this is the answer. These are the things that we need to talk about. So I told my husband, I said, I want us to sit down and like read this together and talk about it. Of course,

he's like, okay. Right. Husbands love it when we say. I want us to sit down and talk about this. I know, I know. And I try not, you know, I, like, it's got to be a big ticket item for me to do that. Sure. And so I said, I just think it's really good. And I said, you know what? I said, I'm going to print off a copy and I'm going to take it with us and give a copy to Rick because he needs to know there's a more than date night. You know, but all that to say, so we were, and we were talking about, I'm like, but oh my gosh, can you just imagine if we had started our marriage when we were children? If we had started our marriage with the things that we have learned from Rick or if we just started like, why wasn't he a part? Like, why didn't he come to our wedding? I mean, you know, he didn't know us.

Like, why haven't we been going to him for the last 16, 17 years? Yeah. Because we wouldn't still need to go now. Well, we probably would. There'd be new issues. But, you know, life would just look different if we had learned the things then that we're learning now. Sure. So all that to say, I don't even know where I was going with that.

But, yeah, so we've talked about expectations and just, you know, I finally. had to say, you know what, yes, I need to do some of the things that I hate because it, it, you need me to. Yep. But we've talked a lot about how I have to lower my expectations. Therefore, I think it's your turn. That's so good. So, and you know, that's just, I mean, it's just back and forth.

That's just how it goes. It's just be, this is why I feel like my life, mantra is being a person is hard. Like it's just so hard to be a person. And um, but the sooner, this is why I love having conversations with people who, who freely admit that being a person is hard and who don't apologize that it's hard and who, you know, like it's just, this is just the way it is. And I'm going to screw up and I'm going to like do things that make the people in my life mad at me. And it's not an excuse like, well, they just have to do with them.

this is just how I am. Like that's not right either. You know, like we, that's not what it means to be in relationship with a person. But that doesn't mean that it's not hard to get there. And that it's, you know, it's okay for it to be hard. And so that's why I really love talking to people who kind of understand that, who, who are lazy geniuses at heart because it's like, you know what? If, if no one says it out loud, then the people who haven't said it out loud yet feel like

they're alone. Right. And that is terrible. That I don't want it to ever feel that way. I just, one of the, the most transformational moments for me when I realized that I think I see the world, like, am I crazy? Like, do I see the world so much differently than other people or people just not being truthful about what's going on? It happened the, it was just a few months after my first my first son was born. He was born in November. And so, like, Like we basically were winter hermits, you know, it was like, I'm not going anywhere. So once it was like spring and the sun came out, it was like all of the little children and their mothers emerged from the woodwork. I had no idea.

So many kids lived in our neighborhood. It was like, oh, look at this. And so everyone was outside on the first sunny day. I didn't really know any of these moms, you know, like just friendly walking by. Like, how are you? But not in relationship with any of them really. And so I'm pushing Sam in his stroller. And I walk up to a group of moms and like a couple of them have like several kids

strapped to them with all sorts of, you know, awesome devices. And so I'm just thinking like, man, these women are, you know, these are like four point oh moms right here. Like they know what's up. And so I walk up to them and of course they're like, I've got a baby. And so they're like cooing at my little four month old and like, how are things? Is this your first baby? You know, whatever.

And one of the moms said, so how's it going? Do you just love being a mom? Oh. And I said, and because I don't have much of a filter. Like, once I shed my, my good girlness to such a degree where I was like, this is stupid. Like, this is not who I am. Who I have been portraying myself to be for the last 27 years is not who I am. Like, it's just not.

And I'm tired of, I'm tired of this. So like, here's me. I kind of jumped to the other end, you know, like to the other drastic end. Like I'm just going to be honest with you people. And if it makes you uncomfortable, we'll deal with that. So now I have to like kind of come back to the middle. Like I have to sort of like, yes, yes, find a balance. Reconciled the two.

But anyway, but this was when I was like, no filter Kendra. And so she said, don't you just love being a mom? Like in that voice. And I went, I mean, no. And all the moms were like, I think they thought I was kidding or something, you know, like they just kind of like no one said anything. And I said, and I realized like, oh, I feel like I've stepped into something here. And I said, I mean, I love him. Like I would die for him right now. But I don't really, I don't really like this. I don't really enjoy my days doing this. And she said, the one with like two babies dropped to her, she said, I have never heard anyone say that out loud before. And I said, well, then I think everyone's lying. Just sort of like, I don't, what are you talking? Then all your friends are lying to you because this is totally how it is.

And come to find, you know, as you mature and grow up and understand that you can't always say everything on your mind to every person you ever meet. The truth of the sentiment is still true. Like I don't get a lot of personal fulfillment from being a mother. I love my children. And I would never want to live life without like trying to imagine what life was like before. I was probably more arrested for sure. And like we had a little more money. But like, but I think I'm happier now.

I'm more myself. It's created, you know, like all those, all those normal things. But that does not mean that I have to always like like it. Right. And that does not mean that anyone else. who feels that way and feels trapped by by moms who sincerely believe that motherhood is magical. Right. And bless them.

They are telling the truth. Like I believe that there are mothers who feel that way, that it gives them so much life. I'm just not one of those moms. And that's okay, you know? And so anyway, all that to say, I just really feel like I've taken up this cause of being a freedom fighter for moms who don't like being moms. that you're okay. Like it doesn't make you a, just because you don't like it doesn't mean you're bad at it. Oh, that's, that's a, like, that's a, that's tweetable.

That's tweetable. But really, like that's, I mean, that, that can be applied to so many parts of our life. Totally. It's like what you were just saying about expectations. Like when we do things that we, sometimes we have to do things we don't like. I don't really like being a mom all the time, but I do it. And sometimes I do it with a great attitude. Sometimes I don't.

Sure. But it doesn't have to, every single thing we do does not have to imbue our personalities with itself. It's like, is imbue the right word? I feel like I just said the, I mean, it felt, it felt smarter than I actually am. But no, it's like, like, I think we think like, like here's, okay, ready? Here's, here's an example for me. if I choose on an afternoon at 4 o'clock, like I sincerely would rather have an apple than a sleeve of Oreos, I'm like, you fraud. What are you some like vegan hippie now? You're choosing apples over Oreos? What's wrong with you?

You know, like I've told myself this stupid thing. Like one time I choose to eat an apple on purpose. I'm going to suddenly become a crossfitter like tomorrow. It's so dumb. It's so dumb, Mary. But I do that with so many things. And I think a lot of us do is if we make one choice that sometimes we don't like making. Like if we hate doing laundry and one day we happen to do magically do three full loads and they are all put away by the end of the day that somehow we're like, now I'm laundry girl. Oh, crap.

Like what I just do? now I've set myself up to be laundering. What have I started? What have I started? And so I think that we're just so hard on ourselves, at least I am. Like, I'm so hard on myself. Like one choice when I, when I'm so, that's, hmm, here's what it is. This is the, the challenge of being someone who is willing to speak about how hard it is to be a person is that when you speak it so often,

but then you make a choice that most days you find to be extremely hard that you don't want to do. And then you make that choice. It's like, wait, have I been lying to myself all this time? Am I not truly an authentic person like I thought? Like we put so much pressure on that one decision. We think everything means so much. Everything means something. Right.

Everything means something. And honestly, even as I said that, my thought was, well, everything does mean something. Right. Right. So I'm right now, I'm leading a women's small group at my church. We're doing Jenny Allen's book Restless, which is all about finding God's purpose for your life in this season, again with the seasons. And I think there's been some tension in our group, not between people, but just with the material as far as like, is it okay if my purpose is just to be a mom? What if I can't find my purpose? You know, and I think. kind of go along those lines like everything we do doesn't have to define us like you said or fulfill our purpose right you know like sometimes you just got to do laundry sometimes you just got to right no that's so good like not everything has to go in the purpose bucket yeah it doesn't have to yeah yeah no that's really good that's one I'll have to be thinking about I yeah yeah

I think because I have, man, as a young person, I thought I was so mature. But I had these, these ideas. And I thought, you know, like I had this, it was just such a fairy tale in my mind, this mystical purpose, God's calling for me. And I think a lot of us have that idea, the very. There's some big meaning for our life. And there is meaning for our life. And absolutely God has a purpose for each of us.

But sometimes you got to do laundry. Sometimes you do. And sometimes you're going to spend 12 days in a row doing things that are just about being a person before you get another chance to really dive into your bigger purpose. Right. Because our little purpose every minute of every day is. is just to be a person. And, you know, right now, being a person means being a wife and a mom and a housekeeper and a pet owner and a small group leader.

And, you know, like, there are just things that have to get done. Right. No, that's really, that's really good that like, that's floating around in my head, like, finding its branch to land on, like, that we, some days our purpose is just to be a person. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels, I mean, sure, it feels small and unimportant. But for, I think, seeing it through my own lens, it makes me feel like if I accept that, even though in my head, I know that's true. Like, I believe that's true. Because how else are you going to function in life? Like, if you don't actually be like, you know what, I'm just, I have to do these things right now. Like, I'm just going to do these things, even though I don't want to. I'm going to be a person about it. And I'm going to be a person about it. And I'm just. And I'm going to be a person and about it. But there's something in me that feels like I'm not being true to myself. Like I'm abandoning who I'm really supposed to be.

But my kids need clean clothes. Right. Or like we have to eat. And I know that like I'm not messing on McDonald's. We eat there a lot. But like we can't go again. We've gone two days. Like we have to, we need to stay home and eat something here.

And, you know, it's like we put, again, we put so much pressure on everything meaning something. Well, and I think that, I think people in general, women specifically definitely do this. But I think as writers and bloggers who have brands, we put ourselves in that brand box. And so you are, you know, Kendra is the lazy genius. Mary has given up on perfect. except I'm still the same person who came up with this idea because I needed it. Right. You know?

And so, right. Like it drives me, I mean, I know it's all good nature, but it drives me crazy when my friends and family will say to me when I'm freaking out about something, Mary, remember, you're giving up on perfect. Oh, stop it. Burn everything. Like, remember, I can reach you to punch you in the face. Right. I'm just so glad that there are people in the world. like you, who are like, you know, you're going to, you are going to counseling.

Like, you are learning to be a person that, um, that you, that you want to be, that you can be, that God wants you to be, um, that your husband needs you to be. You know, like there's nothing wrong. There's actually a beautiful thing in growing, you know, like we want to grow. I don't, I'm so glad I'm not the same person I was when I was, 22. Are you kidding me? That girl was weird. She was so screwed up with a stick up her butt. Like, I'm so glad that she is gone. But it's, it's having conversations like this. It's, it's knowing that people exist in the world who, um, who just kind of carry at the same time

the beauty of the simplicity of life and the hardship of it. You know, like all those things. Like they can, they can exist at the same time. And you can be honest about it and you can be a real person about it and not be afraid to not have an answer to it. You know, it's to not have that magic word to not have the formula. Like no one really does. But to hold all that loosely. Like it's just so encouraging that to have conversations with people like you and to know

that like in Kansas City like Mary is, Mary's doing what I'm doing. she's buying another jar of a, you know, honeysuckle all-purpose cleaner. Even the concentrate. Like I buy the concentrate. My gosh. That goes through like gallons and gallons of cleaner. I think it's like it probably expires.

I don't think cleaning products expire. Mine probably have because of how many. Do they expire? I hope not because I have so many. Like the cabinet under my sink is full of cleaning products. I bought years ago. Yeah, it's so bad. It's so bad.

We need to start a support group. This is like a Target special, like Method and Mrs. Myers, J.R. Watkins, whatever. If it's like pretty, if it's like a pretty bottle, like a pretty pastel that smells good, I'm like, oh, this will make me a better cleaner. No, it just makes me a hoarder. That's all it makes me. Right. It's fine. Okay.

So I want to ask you just to kind of wrap up what is something right now that you love, something you need and something you hate in whatever order you would like to share them. Okay. I made some notes. I'm pulling them up. Do it. Okay. So my question for you, because I'm such a rule follower, when you say something you need, does something like, that I currently have that I need or that I don't have and I need.

Either one. There are no rules. Okay. There are rules. I felt like you were going to say that, but I wanted to ask. Because I want to make sure all my crazy is recorded in this one podcast. Let's do it. Let's do it for eternity.

Okay. So something I love is the Kindle app on my phone. Nice. Share. Because I love to read. and I love to read so much that I need to always have a book with me, or else I'm going to be like reading instruction manuals or cereal boxes. I like to read a lot.

I like to read instead of fill in the blank with whatever makes you a person because I don't want to do those things. I want to read my book. Got it. And so now, I mean, I've had it for quite a while, but now like having the kids. Kindle app on my phone that is never more than a few inches away from my body. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And like books are so cheap.

I mean, well, my husband would never listen to this. But if he were to listen to this, I would say, I mean, I get them from the library. I mean. Which I do. I do because my library, like we can, I can get books from the library. on my phone. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of libraries do that, which is amazing. Yes. But also, I mean, a book for 99 cents or $1.99 or $4.99. Oh, gracious. Everyone's eye. I know. But I mean, yes, it adds up. So I try to control myself. Sure. But the fact is,

I have a library in my hand. Yeah, that's awesome. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I could just go for days talking about that. But I'll contain myself and say what I love is the Kindle app on my phone. That's fantastic. I love that answer. Something I need. Well, here's the thing. I need so much.

No. I was just talking to friends yesterday, blogging friends. So apologies to the non-bloggers listening to this conversation. What I need is one, tool that will basically serve as a virtual assistant and post to Pinterest, Facebook, Twitter, automatically. And I want it to cost $25 a month. You have a very specific need, and I love it. It's like Shark Tank.

Right. Like this is what I need. bring it to me. So I guess like hoot sweet is not good because it doesn't do Pinterest. It doesn't. Okay. So you need a hoot suite. Can I just, is that not the weirdest? It's a great name. It's also so awkward to say. It is hard to say hoot sweet. But we do sound like birds when we say it. So you need, you need a hoot suite that also includes Pinterest and maybe like other things too. Yes. And I want it to be one tool. I don't want any of this going from one site to another or one app to another. No. I want it to be one thing. So that's my need. If somebody out there has the answer, contact me. Boom. I love how

specific that need is. That makes me so happy. And then, okay, what was the last one? Something that And then you hate. Some days I feel like it's a pretty long list. Right. Then when I put on the spot. So I thought of three things that are like varying levels of importance. I hate whistling. Doing it or hearing it?

Hearing it. Which is funny because my dad and my best friend since we were, and kindergarten, like, they both whistle, and that doesn't bother me when they do it. But anybody else on the face of the planet, I don't care how talented you are. I do not want to hear you whistle. Oh, my word, that's amazing. I also hate sopranos and flutes. Anything that kind of resembles whistling.

Yeah, yeah, I really do. It's unacceptable. Oh, that's too funny. So I hate whistling. And then I hate, um, incorrect use of punctuation. Oh, bring it for real. I mean, if you have a sign to promote your thing for the love of all that is holy, please get the punctuation, right? It's so shocking to me to see professionally done things. And obviously, the person making the sign or the billboard or the

whatever it is, they're not responsible to point out your problem. Like, you can them the file you give them what it's going to look like and they do it right so it's not on them it's not on the sign makers but i know before it goes to the sign makers you i mean everybody needs a proofreader so like it drive i'm with you it drives me insane if i walk past them i'm like i'm not going to patronize your business not even close not even close if you can't see through that detail you have lost my business right and because i'm so rational about it, I just think it's not that hard. Right.

Never mind the fact that there are things in life that are so hard for me and not for others. 100%. I know. I'm so good. I'm so good at being judgmental of people who are bad at the things that I'm good at. Right. Yes. Yes. No tolerance.

But I have so much grace for myself when I'm bad at the things that other people are good at. Yes. Yes. Mary, this has just been such a delight to talk. Yes. I need to. Are you? I feel like we haven't had, this is only like our second real opportunity at having a conversation because I know.

The first time we really met was at a loom. Yes. Last year, whenever that was. And it was so, like, it was so easy to talk. And now we're doing it here, like recorded. Like, we should talk like normal people. We should. Like the way normal friends talk.

It's like not being recorded or not at like a Marriott. Right. So like we'll have, we'll figure that out. Are you on Voxer? I am on Voxer. Okay. Do you use Voxer? I do.

I love it. Okay. I love it too. It's one of my favorite things because you can like have conversations with people when you are ready. Yes. You don't have to worry about bothering them. It's too late or early or.

It's so funny. It's such a funny. Like when you explained what Voxer is to someone. It's like texting with your voice. And they're like, why not just text them? Well, then, like, you sometimes you don't want to use your fingers. You have to talk for a long time. And it's really nice to hear someone's voice.

Well, why not just call them? Well, because what if they're busy? Well, then just leave them a voicemail. But then, like, it's all these things. So that's why I love it when people, you have to use Voxer to understand how wonderful it is, I think. Like, it's hard to sort of understand just explaining it. So when people are on it and they love it, I'm like, praise him.

we just we we we are now going to be even better friends because we both can use boxer yes and talk about all the important things yes like whistling and captain hook it's great um captain hook because you're you're i mean that could be a whole whole other podcast yeah i was going to say you're a captain hook girl right i feel like we've established this i am i'm yeah honestly i think i think that i might have a thing for guys who wear eyeliner. Did you like Richard Alpert in Lost? Because he wore eyeliner. Well, don't hate me, but I never watched Lost.

I do not hate you, but we will never speak again. No, I do not hate you. There are a lot of people, like, the world of television is so vast now. Oh, my gosh. That like, like, I used to choose relationships based on liking the same television shows. This is impossible. It is an impossibility. it's not fair for one but it's like there is no way a single person can watch all the important shows

there's no way like there's just no way so i forgive you it's totally fine so but okay so you like guys in the eyeliner is there someone else who wears eyeliner well i realized that this was a thing um well first of you see i've seen it i've seen it on facebook the um like the evolution of johnny depp's face oh my word i have not seen it i have not seen it but i We'll stop everything to see it. I'm going to find it. As soon as we hang up, I'm going to find it and send it to you. So obviously Pirates of the Caribbean.

And I don't know, like every other role he's had since then. Right. But I realized it was a thing for me when, did you watch Community? I did the first season and a half maybe. And then I had to stop because it just, it had to, some stuff had to go. And so sadly, Community had to go. So it was the train off again. Right, exactly.

So there was an episode where Jeff Winger, okay, what's his real name? The main guy. Who does the soup? Who does the soup? Yeah. Joel Hale. McHale. Yes.

Joe McHale. Yes. Okay. So he, I don't know what the storyline was, but he dressed up like in black leather and eyeliner. And I had never in my life thought. Now, there is an attractive gentleman. Until then. Until then, I was like, what's wrong with it?

You like, there's an eyeliner. I love it. Because here's the thing. You don't know my husband. He's like, country boy farm hick would never, like, so far removed from anyone who would ever wear like a black leather cuff and eyeliner. Right. Oh, man.

So I was just so alarmed at this realization. Like, what is happening? Right, right. That happened to me when my husband is a Japanese middle school counselor who has raised his voice like three times in his life. He's like the kindest, kindest man. And he is also, and he's so non-confrontational, like he, to the point where he has said before, okay, just so you know, if someone comes in and attacks us, I'm just going to take you and run. I'm not going to fight them. Like we're just running. So just just know we're going to run. And so that is the man that I am most attracted to in all the world and love more than anything in this entire world. And yet, like, the character of four in Divergent, who is like, should counsel no one would run from no one is always yelling like, there's no. I'm like, who, oh my goodness, four. It's so funny when that happens, though, that when, like, you find yourself, like, yeah, like, like unusually attracted to someone who is so different from the man you've chosen to spend your life with. Right.

It's such an unsettling thing. It's like, what just happened? I don't know what's going on. Who am I? This is personality crisis. Oh, my gosh. I love that yours is eyeliner. I can't take it.

That's the best thing ever. I love it. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, we'll have boxing conversations about, um, about dudes and eyeliner. That is, that's on the horizon. Yes. More to come. More to come. Um, well, Mary, thank you for doing this and being here and talking and, um, and just for being you, for being Mary. I just, again, I just love that there exists in the world, people who are willing to be honest about things. Yes, me too. And it just makes me so happy. So thanks for being here, being honest. Well, thanks for inviting me. This has been so much fun. I'm so glad. I'm so glad. Well, I'll see you on Boxerman. Sounds good. Okay. Bye, Mary.

Hi. Thanks, guys for listening. You can find Mary at her blog, Giving Up on Perfect.com. And her book, Choose Joy, is available wherever books are available. We'll be back next week with Jamie Golden of the podcast talking about baking and hot men, of course. If you enjoy listening to the Lazy Genius podcast, I just can't say thank you enough times. Thank you for subscribing. Thank you for leaving a review. If you have done that, it's so amazingly helpful. If you haven't, oh my word, you have no idea.

Please just hop over to iTunes and you can say something nice. That would be preferred. But if you want to say something mean, that's okay too. But a review is so great. Thank you so much for being part of the lazy genius community, and we'll see you next week. Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life?

Because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.