The Lazy Genius Podcast - #9: Uncovering Your Creative Rhythm with Emily P. Freeman

Episode Date: June 28, 2016

Emily Freeman is the perfect balance of boss lady and soul whisperer. She gets stuff done and has the work to prove it but her goal is to create space for your soul to breathe, and our souls can't breathe if we're drowning in hustle. Listen as Emily and Kendra talk about the difference in dreaming about your ideas and actually making them happen, how they get in their own creative rhythms, and how you can, too. Where to find Emily: Instagram: @emilypfreeman Emily P. Freeman online Where to find Kendra: Instagram: @thelazygenius The Lazy Genius Collective This podcast is hosted by Kendra Adachi and executive produced by Kendra Adachi, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, lazy geniuses. I'm Kendra Adachi and you're listening to the Lazy Genius Podcast. Here we help you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. This is season one, episode nine. And my guest today is Emily Freeman. Emily is my person. She gets all my crazy, all my questions. And whenever I give advice to people and they're like, man, that is so good. It's always something Emily told me first, like every time. She has written four books. She writes beautifully gorgeous stuff about the soul on her blog, Emily P. Freeman.com. And she is my safest person to feel insecure with.

I just can't wait for you to hear the wisdom that she shares with us about being an artist and doing your work and being a boss lady while still caring for your soul. I love her and you will too. Um, okay, so we have to like transition into having a conversation that other people can hear. Right. Right. Right. This is a bit of a problem. Um, because we can't. Look how messy my notes are. Oh, no, it's you have. I love that you have notes. Really, I hope I can read them. All my notes are BJ Novak quotes. Like you stole BJ's notes. Every single thing. It's just a bunch of BJ Novak quotes. which is great.

I love it. It's fantastic. Whenever anyone asked me questions about, like, what's your process? What's your creative process and stuff like that? Basically, everything I tell them is stuff you already told me. Oh, good. So I think that talking about creative processes, not just necessarily, like, being a writer,

but like anything creative. It seems like a very appropriate thing, since you're. kind of like my textbook. You're my creativity textbook reference whenever I need help. So I'm going to let you be everybody else's textbook too. Okay. So because I'm going to be saying a bunch of BJ Novak quotes, I might as well just go ahead and say why I have a page full of BJ Novak quotes. First, for people who are listening who don't know who BJ Novak is, I'm so sad for you. Number two, he played Ryan the Temp on the office. He wrote for the office.

He wrote the episode where Dwight takes Ryan to the beat farm to teach him about sales in the beat fields. Oh, it's so good. It's one of my favorite episodes ever. So he's B. J. Novic, super brilliant. He wrote, he's written a book of short stories. He wrote a children's book that my kids adore. The book with no pictures.

The book was no pictures. It's so fantastic. And he created the list app, which is like taking over. everything. I can't, I had to take it off my phone because I couldn't stop looking at it. Right. I had to delete it. It was very sad. But anyway, I listened to him on an episode of Tim Ferriss's podcast, the four-hour workweek guy. He interviewed BJ and it was so good. And I wrote down everything BJ said. So we're just going to like talk about what BJ said. Not really. I'm sorry you couldn't get BJ.

podcast. You can just link to Tim's. It's fine. You're like my, it's, you're like my color commentator of like BJ's podcast. No, no,

that's not, that's not the case. But here's, but he said some really great things that I would like your opinion on because I don't know that I agree with all of them, but they're just said well. Okay. Right.

If someone says something well, they can convince you of just about anything. And then later you're like, wait. I think that was actually stupid. Right. So you're going to tell me what BJ said was stupid. You're going to help us all.

I can't wait. Okay. So here, there's one idea that he talked about that I think is applicable to all people, but it looks different from him. He talks about powering up. When he's about to work, he says he powers up. For him, that looks like going to get a Vinty Starbucks coffee. He says, and Tim was like, why I won't?

you make you don't want to just make your own coffee. BJ said I wrote it down because it was so good. BJ said brewing my own coffee at home is so unpredictable. It's like getting artisanal Tylenol. I want a standard dose of caffeine. And I thought, wow. Okay. So he gets a coffee. He reads a paper. Like he wants to get in a good mood before he starts working. It's his thing. But one thing he talks about is the, yeah, is like doing things that are so routine and so predictable down to like the amount of caffeine in his coffee. He's not going to divert from that because then he doesn't enter into his creative process as easily or something, which I found a little, a little OCD maybe. Or a little diva. It's like, that must be nice not to have children.

I know. Well, that's the thing. He's like a, he's a, yeah, childless. I think he's single. I don't He's married. Dude who lives in, yeah, like either L.A. or New York, he gets up at 11 o'clock every morning, because I guess that's what you can do when you don't have things. Can I even listen to any of his advice? I know. But here's the thing. Some of it's really good. I do promise. But the concept of powering up, I find very interesting. I do too. How do you power up? And if you do, how do you power up? And does your powering up look different depending on what you're going to be doing? It does. If I'm going to, for example, let's just use writing because that's mostly the creative work that I do. If I know that I have to do some deep writing that day that requires like thoughtful introspection, my powering up looks like something like taking a walk or spending some time in silence before I start.

Like that's legit. Today, before we recorded this podcast, I powered up by going to get a 16 ounce coffee at Green Joe's. Like that's real. That is a real thing that I did. It's like I'm going to work this morning except notice I put work in quotes. I'm going to have a coffee for power and energy. Not that I really need it, but I haven't showered yet. That also depends.

Like, I'm either going to shower or I'm going to have more coffee. That makes sense. It seems like a normal trade-off. But if it's like serious work, I do both. Nice. And then, you know, it is like there is something about a shower that resets me. Like if I haven't showered yet in the morning and then I start trying to work, it's usually a bad idea and I go take a shower.

And it's sort of like it's a reset button. It's funny. Stuff like that feels like to me, showering feels like a waste of time. I hate showering because it's an actual literal waste of minutes. Because I could get by with smelling a little bit. Because part of the reason is because cause my husband, like the days that I haven't showered for like a solid two days has been like the whole weekend.

Sunday night, he's like, you smell really good. No. You weirdo. What is wrong with him? But it's, you know, they say that thing that like you're attracted to someone and you like their natural. Yes. Yes. So he really likes my super dirty Kendra of Fairmoons.

So anyway, I feel like showering is a waste of time. But I agree with you because I'm like, no, I need to spend those minutes because I'm going to waste an hour trying to get into the groove of doing what I need to do because I feel gross. Right. So it's like an exchange. It's real. Yeah, that's real. Yeah. I think there's something too about is there a distinction in when you want to write like at a coffee shop versus or work, do whatever your work is at a coffee shop versus at home or the library or are there locations that are different based on what you're doing?

Yes. It's a little bit weird. And maybe everybody has this actually. But if I have serious writing to do, like I have to write a certain something, especially if it's due to somebody else. Right. Because I can change it and, you know. So when you say serious, time out. So when you say serious, you don't necessarily mean that the content is serious.

I do mean the content is serious. The content is serious. Yes. So it's not just deadline. If I have an article due for like today's Christian woman, for example, this is like the most recent thing I turned in. And it was sort of like, you know, five ways to breathe in a breathless world or something that. was sort of like, I need to think through this. John was not allowed to be in the house.

Right. Because like, don't stick your head and ask me if I want a cup of water. That's not going to happen. Right. So, yeah, so I'll need to have either an empty house or if he has to be home for some reason, then I'll, that's where I would go to maybe the library, which means people, it's not a lot of hustle and bustle. It's more quiet and still.

I get a lot of good work done at the library. But if it's something that, like, I'm going to. coming up with that's like something that's been percolating in me and it's a thought that's sort of a fleeting thought that I'm trying to catch that I go to the library but I sit in my car with the windows down and right from my car because it's like I'm outside but I'm also near Wi-Fi because we park at the library close enough to the entrance and I can also get their Wi-Fi so I can there are certain parking spaces that are my favorite if I pull in they're taken it's very disappointing and I have to come up with a new plan and it's a whole thing

So that's where I go there. If I have like blog posts, like for example, at the end of every month, I do a what we learned this month post. Those are more like la da da da da da da, da, da, da, you know, like I can have. So I'll listen to music while I do those. I can do those at a coffee shop. If John's home, it's fine. It's okay. I can do it because it's more of a list type post.

And so the brain space, it requires a lot of time, but it doesn't require a lot of depth. And so I think that's the difference is the degree to, the, the degree to, which I need to go deep is the degree to which I need to be either alone or I can be around people. Right. No, that makes total sense. Yeah. That's why you can't write really serious things that like might make you cry in the booth at Starbucks. Which I have done that before. It's hard to go there, I guess. And regretted it. So that's how you learn. You pick the wrong thing at the wrong place and then you realize I got to swap. I'm never going to do this again. Right. And there are times. when like out, for example, if my spot's taken at the library and I can't catch the Wi-Fi,

so I have to park further away, then that might decide what I work on that morning. So I might like, oh, I'm going to work on something that doesn't require Wi-Fi, which is not a bad tactic, actually, because there's lots of things I can work on that don't require Wi-Fi. Right. Hmm. Cool. So when I have, my creative process is now when is my baby asleep. So I'm learning to find a new way of doing things. But before I had a baby, one of the things that you had told me that was pretty

transformational in my work was to only do when my kids are not around, do the work that I cannot do when they're around. Don't do anything when I'm alone that I could do when they're there. Which seems really obvious. Right. But it's like sometimes you can't apply it to yourself until someone says. Right. Or you have to make the choice.

to. You know, you think like, well, let me just do the dish. Let me just unload the dishwasher really fast. But it takes even longer for you to get into your rhythm if you keep doing those things. So like the minute I drop them off at school or did and walk in the door, it's like, sit down. Sometimes I'll stop for coffee, but I have a desk now in the brightest part of my house, by a big window, looking into the yard, I have a plant on my desk, because I feel like green is good for my process. because it's like living, I don't know, even though it won't be living for very long because I can plants. Right, right.

Pretty easily, but that's okay. But I like to work at my desk. If I have a lot to do, I like to work at home. If I am trying to come up with ideas for things and like brainstorm things or flesh out ideas, I like to do that with people around. That's good. Because I kind of, I feel like my staring off into space at home. is easy I'm more easily distracted staring off into space because then I notice like there's a cobweb

in my ceiling right and before you know it you're like cleaning right whereas if I'm at a coffee shop I just look like I'm staring at people which I am kind of but like my focus can land on there are lots of things from my focus to land on when I'm trying to come up with ideas for things and flesh out ideas so that's kind of yeah the idea stage is coffee shop the execution stage is at home with no and around. And it's a discipline too to be able to say I drop my kit off. I'm coming home and you go, I think a nice trick is if you have a window, you can put your desk near to face the window because it's quite a discipline for those of us who are

inspired by our environment. Like, oh, I'll work so much better when my space is clean. Oh, right. So the trick is limit the space that you can see. Yeah, don't look at your room at all. So my desk faces the windows, not the rest of the house because I'm, I'm not the rest of the house because otherwise I would be so sad all the time because my house is a wreck. No, that's really good.

I didn't realize, I didn't do that on purpose. Yeah. But I'm so glad my desk faces a window. Maybe that's why it's so effective. Right. Because I'm not looking at, I'm looking at trees and not at trains everywhere. So I just kind of talked about that a little bit in terms of my process. But one thing, another thing that B.J. Noveck said is he's really intense about separating

the idea stage from the execution stage. So the way he has his process of ideas, he has these little tiny notebooks that he carries around. And whenever he has an idea, he writes it down. But he does not, like intentionally, he does not flesh it out at all. He just lets it sit. He learned this, which I, this is something I wanted to ask because how does this, I want to figure out how this can work for other people and other creative ways. When he worked at the office, that's why this interview is so fun because he talks about working and the writers like the office the office not like an office but when they were when he was at the office what they would do they would have something called before the season each season started they would have something

called a blue sky period for two to four weeks and during the blue sky period um in the writer's room every single idea was valid it was just a time to throw out you know kind of brainstorm storming, but really just like, even if it made no sense. Like he was like, what if Dwight went to the moon? What if Jim and Pam got divorced? What if? Like, it didn't. I know that was, I'm so glad that this one did not make the list.

But it was that kind of thing. It was like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't have to make any sense. This is the time to throw out any what if scenario, blue sky, open skies, just let it go. And then they would give space for those ideas to sit. They would just generate. They would not edit for like a month, up to a month, the ideas would just sort of sit there. That feels, now granted, that's like writing for a TV show. That's not, you know, doing your own personal art. But there's something so exciting to me about that, the idea of like letting

ideas breathe. And also a little bit terrifying because it's like, well, let's, how do you know if the idea is going to work if you don't like figure out how it's going to work? work. You can't just let it sit there. It feels like taking a shower. It feels like a waste. Letting the idea sit there. How long, so how do you, how long do you let ideas sit? Like, what's your, your idea threshold? Well, first, let me just say, I 100% agree with this whole concept of idea versus execution. Yes. And I will tell you why in the form of a story. Oh, I love stories. It's really not a story. It's more like a personal example.

Hold, please. You can edit that part. Hairball. Okay. So number one, two examples. Number one is I've always said, so I've written four books. I know people who have written 10 trillion books. So I have limited experience in the book writing phase, but I've written four.

Four is a lot of books. Compared to zero and compared to three. Right. But you know what it just depends on your perspective. Compared to anything less than four. Four is a lot of books. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So each time I've written a book and every book feels different. But my most favorite stage of book writing by a landslide is writing the first draft of the book. It's sort of like an extended blue sky period because for one thing, you've already got the contract. So you've got sort of the business part a little bit behind you. And then my editor, she just sort of is very quiet during that time because she doesn't have anything to look at yet. So she leaves you alone.

So you've got months and months on end to just play with this book idea and find out what it wants to be. Try to listen to it speaking to you. It's like the whole Michelangelo finding the image in the stone. You just sort of, it's like it exists out there somewhere and my job is to find it. Oh, that's right. And it's like this treasure hunt of discovery. And I can, you know, you can kind of go anywhere with it. And it feels limitless and it's exciting and it's fun and it's new.

And you don't have to be critical yet because in the back of my mind, it's like, well, that, I won't keep that in there. So you just get to play with it. It's also the exact opposite feeling. Whatever, all those happy things I just said, think of the opposite. And that's what marketing is sometimes for me. When it comes time to sort of hone in like, okay, got to edit it down and this is what it's really going to be. And this is what you've written. But here's what you've said.

There's two different things sometimes. And that's no good. You want what you've written to also be what you've said and what people hear. But once it gets to that sort of releasing stage, now I think marketing can be fun. I think there can be a blue sky period for that too. Like we can just do anything and it's super fun. But it's when you actually get down to like, here's how much money we have. Here's the actual connections and networks that we're connected in to get this book out into the

world. It can feel it's sort of like the difference between art and math for me and my brain. Some people who are like marketing gurus would probably not feel that way about it. It's just all about your perspective. But that's sort of, so I can relate with it in the book writing phase. My next example is recently. So during the summers, I usually try to take some time away from the blog. Like just I don't totally disappear, but I take some time off because I think it's good for writing.

to, you know, you live a little, you write some, you live some more, you write some. And so summer is kind of a quiet time anyway on the internet in some ways. So anyway, so I've been trying to think of like, I actually have this idea. I'm not going to say what it is yet because I'm trying to hold on to the blue sky period. Sure. But I have this idea for something I'd like to do for the summer that will kind of have a little extended life throughout the summer. And the idea I've been working it. So I sort of gave myself my own process. I gave myself like a, you know, you need to work on it write this many words for this certain project per day or just even like this much time. Like sometimes I'll set a timer for 10 minutes and I'll just write whatever.

No editing, no deleting. Just write, right, right. Or just think, think, think or process, process, whatever. And so I've been doing that for a certain amount of time every day for this project for the summer. I started back in a few months ago, actually. And it was like fun. And I loved it.

It was the most fun thing I was doing. I had the most vision about it, the most excitement. until I started trying to plan out, okay, how am I actually going to deliver this to a reader or to a person who wants to consume it? Every motivation in me has died a thousand deaths because trying to figure out this idea that's a little bit different from anything I've done, trying to figure out the best way to package it so that it can be delivered has totally killed my excitement about it. And it wasn't until you said that about like, because, you know, you told me, a day or so ago about this whole BJ Novak execution and what's the other word? Idea versus execution.

That I realized like, oh, that is why all the wind has, you know, come out from the sails is because I have been trying to figure out, I switched my brain from art to science. And that was a hard switch. Now that I can see the distinction, now I can maybe separate my work time to, okay, here's where I just get to play. And then tomorrow, separate time, I can think about the other thing. but trying to mesh them wasn't working for me. Yeah.

And it's funny that you say that, that it took away all your motivation to do it because he said, one of the things he said is the best ideas will fuel you past the problems. Yeah. So he talks about, he says, find the love first and then let it carry you through the problems. So like, which makes sense, it seems, it's like the don't do anything that you could do when your kids are around, it seems so simple. But when it's said that way, it's like, oh, that makes sense.

If you are spending time on an idea and you immediately go into, well, how I'm going to make this happen, you haven't fallen in love with the idea enough yet. You don't believe enough in the idea yet. You haven't built up enough of a balance, of an idea balance to kind of withdraw from once you start to feel like a crazy person trying to make it happen. Yeah. It's like being engaged. It's like trying to go to marriage counseling before you've fallen in love completely.

It's like, why would we go and do that before we've like gone on a bunch of dates that are really fun? That makes sense. Yeah. That's like the whole premise of The Bachelor. Oh, my gosh. We've just solved the world's problems. That's when, so the Bachelor is when you combine the idea and the execution phases into the same thing, which is why it doesn't really work very. Right. It's why you end up with catfights.

I see this with people with book proposals. People have a book idea. If you try to write a book proposal too soon, you kill it, I feel like. Or you just get so discouraged and you work it to death because it's not grown enough. Yeah, it's not grown enough in your heart or in your mind or in your experience to figure out. And here's what I think that is. I think what it does for me is it pushes me towards trying to control an outcome. And if I, it's like, it's like, like then I then immediately what happens is instead of thinking about serving someone or offering something I am immediately turning into the critic and art can't live under the critic's eye for too long I think it's important but if you do it too soon it's almost like don't give your work to

someone before you even know if you believe in it yeah and especially don't put on your own critical hat until you've kind of played with it for a while and so that whole outcome controlling situation that's where I feel like that's the execution piece. Because you're trying to poke holes in it with the execution, which you should. Right. But poke too many holes in something that doesn't have a lot of substance to begin with. And you've left with like air. Right.

Yeah. And then you're just going to be sad. There's no art and air. There's no art and air. You can tweet that. And I think, I think, too, that whenever I spend time on something, just it depends on how you're wired. I am wired to execute.

I love coming off with ideas, but I'm so wired to execute. And so it's a huge shift and discipline for me to not try to execute right away. And that is something that I've learned from you and from watching you too because you're really great at executing and you're really good at ideas, but you seem to be really good at separating the two. And so, or you're really good at telling me like, Kendra, you don't have to do that idea tomorrow. Or yesterday. Right. Which tends to be the case.

Right. Like, because if I get an idea, it doesn't, I don't allow it to just sit and breathe. Like, I just jump in and like, okay, well, we have to design a website and we have to do, blah, whatever. And it turns, I turn into a crazy person and I don't go to bed until three o'clock. and I'm sending you text at 11 and I'm like, I'm sorry, it's really late, but can you look at this mockup of this new logo? But I just read it on my website. Thumbs up or thumbs down. Yeah.

Right. And they're most, most of the time, that decision is stupid. It is unnecessary. Or normal people it would be. Well, the maddening thing is usually your stuff turns out really good. And you're like, I just did this. at midnight and I re I re designed to the world. I'm like, oh yeah, it's really good. You could have waited, but it's really good. Well, that's very, I think that's kind. That's where your genius,

your genius outweighs you're lazy. So when I, that's, and that's part of my struggle is, I love coming up with ideas and see lots of ways that they could happen. And my brain doesn't know how to turn off that stuff to like make dinner. I'm like sorry guys. Honey, can you heat up some hot dogs? I have to sit at my computer for the next seven hours. Yeah. And that's not necessarily realistic all the time. So and it's not, and it's not good for the idea either. It doesn't mean, it doesn't mean, like you said, it doesn't mean that what I did, like the redesign or the idea or whatever it is that I might have done was was bad or turned out bad. I bet it could have been better if I'd wait. I think things are better if you wait.

You don't know what it could have been. Exactly. Yeah, that's true. Because I was like, let's do this now. That's true. I'm learning that with a project I'm working on, which I think I can say it. Like, I don't think it really matters. It's except I'm the boss.

Who cares? Who cares? But I've been working on a meal planning resource, like a big old giant resource that I really hope like changes people's lives. And I started to work on it and I had the idea and I just started to execute and execute. And then I started to have more ideas to make it even better. But I had already executed parts of it. And so now I have to re-execute. Oh, no.

Re-execution is the worst. Yeah, re-execution is lame. And so it's like giving yourself the time. Again, it's the trade-off. It's like, okay, you know what? I learned through this process. I would rather wait. I would rather fight, fight against the push to move forward.

I would rather wait and sit than have to re-execute later. Aw isn't something we need to travel for. It's something waiting for us in everyday life, whether in a city street or a moment with a work of art. I'm Dachr Keltner, host of the Science of Happiness podcast. Join me for Cities of Aw, a special series on how our public spaces can spark awe, wonder, and enhance the quality of public life. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts. Like that's that's my tradeoff that I have chosen for myself. And so it's worth it.

It's hard to wait, but it's worth it to wait knowing that I'm saving myself three times as much work because I'm giving the idea a chance to live in the blue sky. It's, you know, for me, it's like, flash of lightning, now move. And this is like, no, sit. I mean, they sit with this for a month. they sit with Dwight goes to the moon for a month. That's crazy. And let it just sort of like sit. You'd think Dwight going to the moon wouldn't need a month.

It's like we can live with that for 15 minutes and then we kind of know what direction this is going to go. Right. But for people who have whatever creative project or bent you have, there's something that might be really difficult one way or the other about giving your idea plenty of time to breathe. before you move on to execution. Or it could be like what you said, that you could stay in the idea phase for so long. Yeah. And then you don't do anything with it.

It just sits there. Yeah. I think it comes down to figuring out, am I being motivated by love or by fear? And that can be idea or execution. Where sometimes I feel pushed to execute because I'm afraid that either someone else is going to come up with the idea first, or I'm going to lose my window,

or I'm going to forget something. So that's when execution is motivated by fear. But sometimes you can keep it in the idea stage too long. And then you're afraid of what people might think. You're afraid it won't work. And so you just keep it, oh, I'm just going to keep reworking. And so that can be sort of a fear-based place too. So even with this idea I'm thinking about for summer, like I'm just sort of, I'm waiting

for the love to take over and trying to push back the fear of just hurrying up and doing it because I would rather love it and love the process because the process is part of it too. But it's those things that I wake up in the morning and I'm starting to make lists about like panicky things. That's when I know like this needs some more time. Like I'm not quite ready yet for this because what is what's sewn in anxiety and fear, I don't know how I can deliver it in a loving way that will really serve and help someone if it's if it's sewn and worked out from a place of panic. I never have thought about that before and that's really good. like it makes sense that if you are approaching some if something makes you feel panicked it's not

ready it's not ready like there's there's there's one there's there's a difference in in like being nervous you know like if you're about to launch something like I feel like it's totally normal to be like oh my word this is happening right but that's not that's not like you're shaking pain like panic like now I wish I had the actual dictionary definition of the word panic but it's a different Yeah, it's a different distinction. And so that makes a lot of sense. If you're feeling panicky about about a project, maybe you need to take a step back. Yeah, you can be nervous and in love at the same time. It can be nervous and love, or is it a panic and fear? It's like the, you know, I think hustle is sort of a buzzword these days. And I think it can be either could be great hustle, smart hustle,

and then there can be hustle that's really driven by fear. Right. And I think we, I think when we get quiet, if we allow ourselves to sort of get quiet and listen to what's really happening on the inside, I think we know. I don't think we need someone to be, well, am I panicked or not? I think you know. I think people, if you're, if you have any bit of self-awareness, you might not want to admit which one it is. But if you don't want to admit it, probably it's fear-based. There's a, there's a hint. Right. And that's when it's, I think it's important to have someone in your life that you can talk to about. about your work, about your art, about whatever you're creating, because saying it out loud takes the fear out of it or takes the power out of the fear sometimes, or it gives that other person a chance to say, I feel like you are, you keep trying to perfect this idea and I think it's because you're afraid to share it. Or, you know, like someone can see something more clearly than you can, especially if you are in the idea, like if you stay in the idea phase for so very long you're so immersed in it that you really almost can't see like you have to have someone kind of

give you a flashlight and like help you out like oh right i've dug myself in this giant hole and now i can't even see the sky anymore so um sometimes it's nice to have a voice that can be like no you know what this is a really good idea and i feel like you're afraid of making it happen so let's go make it happen um so i like that is something i wrote it down am i being motivated by love or by fear see now you're getting added to the page of BJ Novak clothes. Yes. Right? That's awesome.

I love that. It's funny that we're talking about like, what's your process and all that? Because I heard Seth Godin on multiple things because that's something that he's always asked. You know, like, how do you write? Because you write every day, all that stuff. And he's like, I'm not going to tell you. He's never shared his creative process because he says that. that all it does is it gives you like another excuse, like, well, I'm going to try to replicate

what Seth Godin does, not in order to be Seth Godin, but it must work. If this is what Seth Godin does, then it must work. Yeah. And I can see, I can see that a little bit, but I also think it's it's kind of nice to know how other people do things sometimes. I agree. It's, here's the thing about people sharing their process. It's not because there's one great way to do it or one right way to do it or even a best way to do it. But the beauty of hearing how another artist works is that it demystifies the process. And it gives us all permission to say, oh, that's it. That's all you do? Well, I could do that or I have a better way. And so it's just like, it's a generous way of sharing something. And I'm not saying like Seth Godin is not very generous because he is. He's generous

with a lot of things, just not his career process. But I get his point. And I think he's right that people would maybe try to systemize that, like, oh, this sets way. But it doesn't work for me because it's almost, I mean, I've heard that a lot from people when I have shared things that I do. And I'm like, well, that's great. But my kids are whatever different age than mine are or whatever the thing is.

But it just goes to show like, you know, you get to have another process. But it's sort of like a me too type of thing. Like, oh, okay, you do it that way. And then you still are able to finish stuff? Wow. Okay, I've got more time than that or I've got more or whatever. Because the thing is we all have limited resources, depending on, you know, some of us might have more money, but we don't have as much time. Or somebody might have more support, but you don't have as much money, you know.

And so I think that we all get to figure out. It's like Lauren Michael said that the best, the creativity works best within boundaries, which is why he likes to write for not cable TV, but just regular old TV TV, where he can't just say. say bad words all the time and he has to be creative within a certain amount of boundaries. And I think that's something we can all apply to our own process. Processes.

Processes. Prasai. Amy Poehler says in her book, Yes, please. Like of all the people and all the places to find inspiration for the work that you do,

Amy Poehler. Right. But Amy Poehler. Right. And so I'm going to quote her. She says, she's talking about how she gets the work done and she was talking about writing.

She said, you just lean over the computer and stretch and pace. You write and then cook something and write some more. You put your hand on your heart and feel it beating and decide if what you wrote feels true. You do it because the doing of it is the thing. The doing is the thing. The talking and worrying and thinking is not the thing. This is what I know. And I read that and I thought, oh my gosh, I spend a lot of time talking and worrying and thinking and not doing the thing. But I think that's, that's, that's, that's, that seemed like her best advice for getting the work done is to do the thing.

And sort of, I'll hold hands with Amy in my imagination and say my best advice for whatever your process is, is if you have work to do or you something ahead of you creative work, even not creative work, is to choose your absence. And that can be choose your absence with certain volunteer opportunities. Choose your absence from social media. Choose your absence from knowing certain things in the news. And I don't mean that forever, but for a time. I think that we get to decide what we know about.

And some of the stuff can, like right now, it's like lots of political stuff happening. That can take up brain space and it can be distracting. And so I'm learning what it looks like to choose my absence in different areas. And it can be as small as like when you take your kids to school, you come home, you're going to choose your absence from the sink and the dishes. for a time so that you can get this work done. And sometimes I have to choose my absence from insecurity. Like I'm not going to entertain insecurity right now and a lack of self-confidence. I don't have time for that. I'm choosing my absence from that headspace. And I don't know if my sister said that or if I read that in essentialism. I feel like someone else smarter than me said that,

but I've held on to it. And it's become a mantra in my mind of just choose your absence, which means you're actually choosing your presence to someplace that you feel like is more important. So if you were teaching some sort of, some sort of class to creatives, what would, what would required reading be? Required reading. Or what would, yeah. Well, I think first, they would have to read Walking on Water by Madeline Engle. I haven't read that yet. Oh, my gosh.

You need to take my class. I need to take your class. that I just started planning this minute. That's sort of for the soul of a creative, I think. That's sort of a deep, a deep dive is walking on water. But then you'd also have to read, which everyone talks about this book, I guess, The War of Art by Stephen Pressfield. Yep.

That's sort of like, like, you know, I'm doing boxing moves. It's like a, like a rocky punching montage training. We got to do this. It's sort of like for your body. Annie doesn't like that idea. I didn't like Rocky. Hold on. Let's see if I can.

What's about you, baby girl? Other than the fact that you're a baby. And you get upset about things. Yeah. Okay. It's her only way of communication. Right. Okay.

So fighting montage for War of Art. Right. Uh-huh. Madeline Le Engel, Walking on Water. I would. put your book in there? Oh, a million little ways? Well, if I taught a class, I'd probably recommend my own book, I guess. Because why write it if I didn't think, yeah, people will ask me who have read a million little ways. Sometimes people ask like, so, they'll ask me a question that's

sort of like the premise of the book. Like, okay, I read your book. But can you tell me, you know, like what it looks like or how to, you know, I'm going to be like, dude, like if I couldn't, if you couldn't help, get help from the book I wrote, wrote the same. 60,000 words, then clearly I am not the person for you to ask. I think essentialism is a good, it's a good read for people who do any sort of work at all. Yeah. If you're a person who has to get anything done, essentialism is a great read. It helps, it helped me, it helped my, my workflow brain that does not always come

supernaturally, doesn't always come naturally. I say supernaturally, but I don't mean like, God, like. I mean, like, amazingly naturally. Anyway, so yeah, that book has helped me figure out what is essential and what it's not. And that changes. That can change for different seasons. But that's a good read. But I too think just curriculum-wise, if I were really going to teach a class for creatives,

there would be two big things I would want them to answer. And that would be, why are you doing what you're doing? And who are you doing it for? And so the why and the who are really important before you figure out the how or what the thing is. I was just thinking about a couple of my favorite creative books. One is Thinker Toys, which is a book that helps you brainstorm. And then another is a book that you have on your shelf that I really want to read eventually. What's the one about hooked?

The book, hooked? Yes. Creating products that people can't live without or something like that. Basically, teaching people. how to be hypnotized so they buy things they don't need. I have not read it yet. Right. So I'm a little, it's like, is this black magic?

What is this strange sorcery that you're teaching? But isn't there something to do about, like, how do you, how do you differentiate in your head when it's, when it's time to try to come up with new ideas? When it's time to like, okay, we're going to figure out how to hook people. I'm going, you know, like, because you have said before, I'm not ready to read that book. Like, it's not time because it's going to distract me. I feel that way about thinker toy sometimes. Like, like, I've got enough ideas to work on.

I don't need any more ideas. I feel like I'm going to get, for me, there's such a thing as too many ideas because then it kind of turns me crazy. Yeah. And it's so, but I still haven't quite figured out for myself, like, when is it time to have no ideas? When is it time to? Is it when I've fleshed out enough of the old ones and turned them into things that, now I just need more to work on or, you know, like I haven't going to figure that out for myself yet. Yeah, I don't know that I've ever thought in my head. It's time to have a new idea and then had it. It just, it all, it comes from within. And we interviewed for Hope Writers, we interviewed Amber Haynes, author of Wilden the Hollow. Beautiful memoir, by the way, if you haven't read it. But she talks about, you know, I think I asked her a similar question about how do you know when it's time to write the book? And she said, wait for the fire.

And I thought, I thought that is so good because that is kind of what it is. It's like instead of trying to strike the match or trying to make, you know, make this thing happen or it's the difference between chasing the fire and then waiting for it to come. And that's such a hard thing. But it's like it's almost like people ask, well, how do you know if you're marrying the right person or it's time to get married? It's like, well, if you don't know, then it's not yet probably. And it's similar with writing a book or having a new idea. Like if it's not coming up from within that you just can't not do it, it's probably not ready yet. Okay, cool.

Thanks for fixing that for me. You're welcome. Next. That's Amber. You can thank Amber for that. I remember her saying that, though, Chase the Fire. She said wait. She said, wait for the fire.

Light for the fire. Yeah, I could listen. Can she do every audiobook that's ever been written ever, please? Can she narrate my life? Yeah, her voice is so good. that made me think there are so many things that I hear and read and underline and you know like all these quotable highlightable things in these in this curriculum of this class that you just made and you'll read a blog post you know like there are all these things that kind of inspire

I guess or kicking the butt or do whatever it is you need them to do um do you put those in one place like or do you just let it sit when it is and if you remember it later you remember it later or you know like yeah picked up a book that I've read like even essentialism or or something that I've has has permeated my life already but I'll pick it up and I'll flip through what I underlined and I'm like oh I need to remember that right but like I'm not going to spend time every single day going through all my books and flipping through what I underlined right that's kind of you know so like I don't know what's weird though is I do spend time every day doing this. Do you really? Well, maybe it's obviously then I'm crazy. I will just grab a book that I love and I'll

flip through the underlines and then I'll find and I'll remind myself of things. But you know what's funny, here's something is that this you say like if you were going to teach a course for creatives, well, I actually am going to teach a course. Yeah, you did. You are. So I haven't yet, but I'm working on one for the fall. So right now, um, when I have ideas or like you said, you're reading something, I do put them all in one place because I'm compiling them. for my world domination. Just kidding, not really. It's actually a quiet, a quiet, you know, a small, quiet movement that I would like to build.

But it is. So now, right now they are collecting. And I think that I, I mean, I know you bullet journal, I've started doing that too. And so that does, that is a place where a lot of my quotes live. But now they're starting to come together like, you know, like magnets all in one. space to sort of inspire this new thing. So that's kind of fun. So I need to do the thing I thought I shouldn't do. Open up my books and read and actually read the things that I underlined. Yeah, totally. It makes sense. Like why underlined if you're not going to look at it again?

You know, when that, you know, don't do it if you're full of good ideas. But if you're at a place where you're like, I'm, if you're writing a blog post but you feel stalled out or if you're just feeling uninspired, that's the first thing I do is I'll pick up a book that I've read that I knew I loved and I'll just, I'll look through the underlines and it will usually spark something or an idea or something for me. And I'll also do that with my old journals because I write, I write through things to process. And I'll go through and look and be like, oh, that, I never fleshed out that idea. That was a 25% thought through idea. I'm going to, I'm going to finish it and I'll do it and it'll become a blog post. That's good. Yeah. Now I just want to go through my

bookshelves and, you know, see, now I'm going to like, okay, now I'm going to go do it all. Right. Rather than just sitting with the idea for two seconds and being like, that's a good idea. Right. Remember that for later. Oh, my word. It's so dumb. One thing that BJ said about working, because he went to Harvard and a lot of really great comedy minds come from Harvard, which is so interesting to me.

But he said the biggest advantage is not wasting time thinking that what you want to do is crazy. Yeah. Like if you go into something, like believing, like, no, this isn't a crazy idea. This isn't perfetched. You don't waste your time. Like, well, I'll just be an accountant or like whatever it is. Like, let me just go do this other thing that is not your art. Like if you just believe like, okay, other people might think this is crazy.

And on my worst days, I also think this is crazy. But really the biggest advantage is I'm not going to waste my time thinking it's crazy. If I have the time to think that it's crazy, I also have the time to work on it like it's not. Right. So let's just do that instead. Yeah. I think that's the bottom line is just don't make it so hard. Right. It doesn't have to be so hard. It doesn't have to be so hard. Yeah. It can just be regular. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be fancy and you don't have to wait for inspiration. You get to just do it right now. Just take one small step. I think in that book Essentialism, he talks about starting small and celebrating progress. And I can, I think I've trained myself to start small. I think celebrating progress. is more difficult, but I'm learning. But there is something to that. And so start small, celebrate progress.

That's good. Why don't you tell me something that you love, something that you need, and something that you hate? Oh, you would ask something that you hate. I mean, I just hate a lot of things. Right. Okay. Something I love right now is Survivor. I am still stuck in the year 2000. And John and I still watch Survivor every Wednesday night. And the reason I can, it's freshly on my mind of loving it is because the last time it came on, our DVR didn't record it for some reason. Like it just didn't. And we like sat down to watch it, put the kids to bed and we're so excited. And it wasn't recorded. That's devastating. Like I checked like the series is recorded. Everything's set. Like every setting is right. Some reason it just didn't. So we'll, you know, we can watch it online, but you have to wait a day and this whole thing.

And so, but it's just so, it's, and part of it, too, is because it's a show that John really likes, so he doesn't fall asleep during it, which is always a plus for us. That's a win if John stays awake. And so, yeah, it's just, it's just a interesting show, even though it's like the same thing every season, but, but people are different. I'm still fascinated by it because people are different. And it's just, I don't know, it's, it's, it's gamey and it's social. They smell gamey, too, I bet. I bet they do. And Jeff Probst doesn't age. And he says the same. Yeah, he says the same phrases. He's a robot. He's a robot person. He's a lovely robot with amazing dimples. And his hair is like, his hair just keeps getting like thicker and more luxurious. Like it's supposed to thin as he gets older.

It's not magnificent hair. Come on in, guys. Like he says the same phrases over and over. He does. He does. I just heard him. Like I say that to my kids and I'm like, oh, it's time for tribal council. I just all these phrases.

So I'm loving Survivor. I hate the word hubby. Thank you. I pretty much can't stand it. Like it's fun. I mean, it's fine. People who say that about their husbands, it's fine. But it gets personal when they turn around and be like, is your hubby home tonight?

Or are you and your hubby going out? And I'd be like, I don't have a hubby. I don't know. That's not something that someone that lives in my house is not a hubby. It just feels a little emasculative. It's just disrespectful to me. I understand that. I know the women who say it. Like, it's fine. They don't intend it that way. It's just like a personal preference. It's like I don't like key lime pie. It's fine. It's not like it's an evil thing that exists in the world. I don't begrudge others who eat it. I don't know. I've heard you talk about key lime pie. I think you think it's a little evil. If you like to eat dish liquid, that's your own personal, personal thing. But I'm just not going to choose to eat soap. I really thought, because I make a really good keeline pie.

And I believe that you do. I really thought I was going to bring you over to my side. I was like, I'll just make you because when we, didn't I make one for the pie nights? Yes. Yeah. So I made like 17,000 pies with high hopes. And one of those pies was keeline pie. And I just, I knew, I knew I was going to get you.

That was a hard day to be honest. And you took a bite and you went, sorry. It tastes like dish soap. Soap. Soap. The worst. Like, I don't even know if I could swallow it. And that's the way I know that it's just a personal aversion.

Right. Because you make the best food ever of anyone I know in real life. Or in fake life. Real life's fine. Pret. Real life is very generous. Fake life's a little much. Fake life is.

There are a lot of people who make good food and fake life. But yeah, you do hate, you do hate hubby and you do hate Keelime Pie. So those are two really good. I gave you two hates and no needs. Hold, please. Let me think about a need. I think an ongoing need for me personally is I need to not take myself so seriously. I think that's a real thing.

Take this life just seriously. Yeah. Because it just applies to everything. It applies to serious things. It applies to not serious things. And I do better when I'm when I'm less taking things myself so seriously. It's just like it's more fun. Mine is the key lime pie.

I'm all over all of those answers. That's all right. We can still be friends. We can tell well. Let's hope. Because I married a man whose favorite pie. Key lime. Yeah.

Yeah. And he liked my key lime pie. So I know that I wasn't like crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I made him a key lime pie once. Did you wear? like a hospital mask when you did it.

It's like a scene of breaking bad. It's like asthma suits. This terrible, terrible fruit. No, you like, do you hate lime? You don't hate lime in general. Lime is great. I'll squeeze lime on my tacos all day and all night. Right.

It must be the key. When you combine keys and lime, no. Thanks, guys, for. listening, you can find Emily and all of her books and social media things at her website, Emily P. Freeman.com. We'll post that link on this episode's show notes as well at the lazy genius collective.com slash podcast. We'll be back next week for our last episode of this season with Emily Freeman. She is also really funny and likes pop culture. And so next week, we're sharing our favorite lazy geniuses from television and movies.

to close off the show. Thank you so much for listening this season, whether you've just joined us or you've been with us from the beginning. I'm just so grateful that you're taking part in this community. So we will see you next week for our final episode. Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that. More dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Is it? I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast. called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A-plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.