The Lazy Genius Podcast - Bonus: What’s the Deal with Bestseller Lists?

Episode Date: May 26, 2022

We just launched The Lazy Genius Kitchen into the world, and it became a New York Times bestseller which is so much fun and I’m so grateful. I often get asked, especially by aspiring or professional authors “how do you get on The New York Times?” I get asked enough to spend a few minutes on it today for this little bonus episode.   Helpful Companion Links Check out my books The Lazy Genius Way and The Lazy Genius Kitchen Download a transcript of this episode.   This podcast is hosted by Kendra Adachi and executive produced by Kendra Adachi, Jenna Fischer and Angela Kinsey. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Amazon presents Laura versus Fruitflies. Swarming your fruit and terrorizing your kitchen. These little freaks multiply at a rate that would make a rabbit say, yo. Chill. But Laura shopped on Amazon and saved on cleaning spray, countertop wipes, and fly traps. Hey, fruit flies, your baby boom ends here. Save the Everyday with Amazon. Hi there. You are listening to the lazy genius podcast. I'm Kendra Adachi and I'm here to help you be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. Today is a bonus episode. What's the deal with bestseller lists? I sound like Jerry Seinfeld. We just launched the lazy genius kitchen into the world and it became a New York Times bestseller, which is so much fun and I'm so grateful. And also, there are a lot of questions about bestseller lists. There are multiple lists chosen.

in different ways. And I often get asked, especially by aspiring authors or even just people who are curious, like, how do you get on the New York Times? And I get asked enough to spend a few minutes on it today for this little bonus episode. So this is a little behind the scenes of bestseller lists. Now, the first thing, very important to say, I'm not an expert. I am a published author, but that does not make me an expert in this. Second thing, there's not a lot written on this topic because third thing, it's like kind of secretive. Not in a CIA. way, but there is a lot of keeping your cards close to your chest. Publishing is a very strange industry and way more arbitrary than you might think, especially with bestseller lists. So

let's just jump into the mystery together, shall we? All right. First thing, the main published bestseller lists that we're going to talk about are the New York Times, Publishers Weekly, USA Today, Indiebound, and the Wall Street Journal. If you are an author, and your book shows up on any of these lists, you can call yourself a national bestseller. If you see like an Instagram bio and someone says I'm a national bestseller, they were on one of those lists. Amazon counts too, but Amazon rankings show up in different ways at different intervals and they are not printed or released in the same way as these other lists are. Plus Amazon is just tracking Amazon, not Indies or other outlets, right?

Okay, second thing, all of these lists are calculated and choking. differently, which is why a book might be on one list but not on any others, or why sometimes it's really surprising that one book did not make a certain list, while another one that sold fewer copies did. Third thing, these lists are calculated over different timeframes. Some of the list, it's data from Sunday to Saturday, like sales data. Others, it's Monday to Sunday. But it's usually a week. All of them are like a week. Also, I don't know if you all know this or not, but all books, like pretty much all books are published on Tuesdays, which I find super interesting. And it also makes a lot of sense. You want to give your book the best chance to sell as many

copies and as much time as possible. So it's industry standard to release books on Tuesday. So my second recently released book, The Lazy Genius Kitchen, it released on Tuesday, May 3rd. all of the sales that happened before that. So all of those pre-orders that you guys made and the sales that happened through the weekend following May 3rd. Those were counted as first week sales. That's another thing that's important to know. All pre-orders count toward your book sales that first week, which is why your favorite authors on the internet are like, pre-order my book because those sales count. And it's also why your first week as an author is almost always the highest number of sales you will ever, ever have. Unless you become like a book club pick for Oprah or Reese or something causes your book to just like culturally catch fire.

Otherwise, an author's best and likely only chance to make a bestseller list is that first week of release. Okay. Now let's talk about the list specifically. We're going to start with the most straightforward, at least in my opinion, of the list. and that is Publishers Weekly. Publishers Weekly rankings are broken down into a few categories, top 10 overall, hardcover fiction, hardcover nonfiction, mass market, some children's categories, and a few others. Publishers Weekly is chosen and ranked purely on book sales, just book sales. Part of you might be thinking like, wait, aren't all of them that way? No, they are not. So Publishers Weekly gets that data from something called BookScan.

BookScan tracks about 80% of all printed books in the U.S. BookScan is obviously connected to like the big online retailers like Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, and they're also connected to a high number of independent bookstores. Not all, but a high number. But the number published by Publishers Weekly, it does not include all independent bookstore sales. some, but not all. It does not include sales to libraries or books that are sold outside of

bookstores. Like, you know, a lot of books will show up in gift shops and stuff like that. Publishers Weekly also does not include e-books. It's printed books only. I'm not sure if it includes audiobooks or not. That is a piece of information I have not been able to find. So while it's the most straightforward list with an accurate and published sales number, it is the only list that does that. it's the only list that actually lists how many books were sold. It is still not complete. And here's the thing. No list is complete. No list is complete. So for example, The Lazy Genius Kitchen, it was ranked number 11 in hardcover nonfiction on publishers weekly, which is absolutely amazing, by the way, bonkers. And the sales on publishers weekly, those were listed at 11,772 copies.

That's like a public number on their site. But if you include e-book, books, the sales that week were actually 14,668 copies. So some lists count e-books, and therefore the sales number is higher. So Publishers Weekly is just about book sales, and it's broken into multiple categories, and it is seen as highly, highly accurate, but it also does not include e-books. Okay. The Wall Street Journal, bestseller list, is also based on sales from Book Scan, but their categories are different. Honestly, I don't know if they include e-books and the internet is divided on that. It is giving different information.

And then the Wall Street Journal, it's behind a paywall online or you have to look in the actual paper. So it's like a bit less public, but it still is super amazing and absolutely counts as a national bestseller. The next step is USA Today. USA Today, it does not do categories. They're just like, here, here are all the books. One big list of books.

they also don't take as much of a stance on like, we have incredibly accurate data across all book sales ever like publishers weekly. But instead, they are more focused on creating a comprehensive list on what is selling well across a wide variety of stores in different parts of the country. It really is like, here's what America is reading in one long list. There are 150 titles published each week and it includes everything in that one list. Paperpack, drugstore romance novels, business books, children's books, everything. It does not list sales numbers like Publishers Weekly does. Remember, Publishers Weekly is the only one that does that. But USA Today does include how many weeks a book has been on their list and what their previous ranking was. It kind of looks like Billboard Songcharts,

you know. Being on this list is really quite, quite amazing and cool because of how. comprehensive it is across all genres. So, for example, the Lazy Genius Kitchen was 39 on the USA Today list, which is, again, crazy town, and was a handful of spots away from like Jennifer Gray's memoir, a Jack Reacher book that's been on the list for 17 weeks. The body keeps the score and the very hungry caterpillar. That list is the only time I will ever, ever be more popular than the very hungry caterpillar. We'll be right back. Aw isn't something we need to travel for. It's something waiting for us in everyday life, whether in a city street or a moment with a work of art. I'm Dr. Keltner, host of the Science of Happiness podcast. Join me for Cities of Aw, a special series on how our

public spaces can spark awe, wonder, and enhance the quality of public life. You can find us wherever you listen to your podcasts. So the lists left to talk about are Indybound and New York Times. The Indybound list is put together by the American Booksellers Association and it takes sales data just from independent bookstores, right? That's why it's called Indybound. The interesting thing with this one is that it's not based on overall sales volume, but on how high a book sells at a store compared to other books. So one independent bookstore could sell 50 copies of its top seller, and another bookstore could sell five copies of the same book as its top seller. And the top sellerness is what is important, not necessarily

the number of sales. It's kind of like what books are buzzy at most independent bookstores. It's not necessarily how many copies were sold of them. The Lazy Genius Kitchen was ranked number 18 in nonfiction, hardcover bestsellers on Indybound, which is crazy town for a book like mine. You guys love independent bookstores. So the fact that so many of you purchased from your local store is amazing. And the absolute very reason why the Lazy Genius Kitchen ranked on Indybound is just amazing. And the final list, that is the weirdest, the most arbitrary, but it's also the most lauded, which is kind of annoying, is the New York Times. Y'all, this is the most convoluted thing.

And I will also likely get a little bit more personal with this one. First, here's what we know. And it's not a lot. The New York Times bestseller list is an editorial decision. It's an editorial decision. It's not based solely on numbers at all. It doesn't use book scan, at least according to the most recent reporting of this process, which is very secretive. Instead, the New York Times has specific independent bookstores and outlets that it pulls data from to get an idea of what's actually selling well in both print and e-books. It also has categories that are more about format than about the genre. So there is a combined

print and e-book fiction list, a combined print and e-book non-fiction list, hardcover fiction, hardcover non-fiction, paperback fiction, paperback nonfiction, several children's categories. And then there is this catch-all category called advice, how to, and miscellaneous, which is where cookbooks are or The Lazy Genius Kitchen, which is not a cookbook, but it's shelved with them where that lands. That's also the list where religious nonfiction and productivity books go, which technically the Lazy Genius Way is both of those things. So the New York Times is categorized by format, not really by genre. But how are those books chosen?

So when I announced on Instagram that the Lazy Genius Kitchen had made The New York Times, so many of you so generously and kindly said things like, of course it did. I'm not surprised, which was so kind and encouraging. And yet the thing about the New York Times is that you just have no idea what they're going to choose because it's literally a group of people in a room. It's an editorial decision. It is not data-driven. It's data-informed, but not data-driven. The people in that room, they do consider book sales. You know, they obviously want to see what's resonating with readers across the country. But they also want to choose titles that are representative of what's relevant in the culture, which authors are selling well and getting national press of some kind. And the New York Times

seems to really value sales in a wide variety of formats and across a wide variety of retailers. If a book only sells well as an Amazon ebook, but nowhere else, it's very unlikely to get a nod from the New York Times because that's not the editorial decision that they want to make. Right. Okay, So as an example, a couple of years ago after George Floyd was murdered and the country started its long overdue exploration into recognizing and changing systemic racism in the U.S. People started to read How to Be an Anti-Racist by Ibram Kendi, White Fugility by Robin D'Angelo, Be the Bridge by Latasha Morrison, and many other anti-racism books by black authors were that week's New York Times bestseller list. Now, those authors had a ton of sales because people

were seeking information and guidance in the space. And also, the New York Times was making an editorial decision to stand with black authors and the black community and these books at a time when the entire country was starting to see racism in its architecture. And it was a powerful editorial decision to do that. To see that list was really powerful. So the long and short of the New York Times list is that it's the most lauded of the lists to make. It has the most clout and it is also the most arbitrary. So many authors sell more books in a week than the authors that make the list. So often it feels really unfair. I will say specifically for the advice, how to, and miscellaneous category also, there is a pattern of not having the

same kind of books populate that list, right? You're not going to have 10 cookbooks. You're not going to have 10 religious nonfiction books. You're not going to have 10 time management books because it's 10 on the list. There will be some sort of variety. So if my book were to come out the same day as Ina Garden's next cookbook and three or four other super popular cookbooks, the chances of my book making the list go down significantly. Some of it is honestly luck to kind of be peaking when someone else isn't, which is gross, but it's also the reality of that list. Okay, half-big harvest, which I'm sure a lot of you know and love, Teigen released her new cookbook at the end of March. And that thing has not left any bestseller list since. It is selling like hotcakes.

It's been on the New York Times bestseller list for six weeks. And here's what's funny. Tegan has sold way more copies than a lot of the nonfiction books that are currently on the combined print and e-book nonfiction New York Times list. But she's not listed there. She is only listed in the advice how to miscellaneous list because that's just where cookbooks go. But she's been on that list for six weeks. Okay, the week that we were waiting for the list that the lazy genius kitchen could be on

that week, I knew that Tegan, half-baked harvest, would not lose her spot on the New York Times list. Like, no chance. She's like, I've been making this joke. She's like the atomic habits of cookbooks. Like, she's not going to go anywhere. and well-deserved because she's fantastically talented. Also, the week before my book came out, there were two cookbooks that debuted on the New York Times list by famous people. Alton Brown

released a new cookbook, as did Daphne Oz. The Times, they like books written by well-known authors, aka celebrities, even if those books don't sell as many copies. Now, I'm not saying Alton and Daphne didn't. They sold plenty to make the list. But celebrity authors in general are weighed more heavily by that editorial group, at least based on like a long period of observation by many people. Celebrities have a better shot because of that whole editorial decision based on what's happening in the culture. So with half-baked harvest, them being, like her being on the list, and then two celebrities writing cookbooks that week before mine, plus there was a beautiful new cookbook that debuted the same day. Mine did, Mi Kosina, which means my kitchen in Spanish,

written by Rick Martinez. It is a beautiful book. It had a lot of buzz and presumably a lot of sales. So even though I was already a New York Times bestselling author with a lazy genius way, and even though I had sold almost 15,000 copies of my book, and even though I had national press, it was still a total crapshoot. Never a shoe in. Because nothing about the New York Times list is predictable and sometimes even fair because it is not based on numbers alone. It is an editorial decision. So I did, as I said, I did make the list along with Rick, which is so fun. Teigen for sure stayed, which I expected. But the other two cookbooks from the week before did not stay because again, the likelihood of them having half that list filled with cookbooks is very, very low. That's the list where

Brune Brown goes, you guys. Atlas of the Heart is on that list. You're not going to take away Bernay's spot. But the point is, it's just all a little wonky. To get a little personal here, I wanted to make the New York Times list again. I did. And I had to do a lot of personal work in conversation with my friends and other writers, with Kaz, my husband, with my therapist, to come to a place where I could want something, where I could work hard in the hopes of getting something, but where I could also know that I would be totally okay if I didn't get it. I do not have a great track record of dealing with failure very well, which is why I historically don't try things I don't think I'll be great at. It's not a great life plan, you guys,

but I am enjoying being a beginner in many places over the last decade. I like that. I'm starting to like that more. But in this scenario, I knew that I was lying to myself if I said that making the New York Times did not matter if I said I didn't care. Because I did. I did. It would be so cool to have written two books and both be New York Times bestsellers. Bonkers fun. But where I landed was that if I did not make the list, there is literally nothing else I could have done to make it. We sold almost 15,000. books. And there are books on multiple New York Times lists that have only sold a third of that. Because again, it's not just about that. We had national press. We had a great book that people loved.

We had sales in multiple places. I had already been on the list once, which I think likely helps you get in the door more easily. We made the Lazy Genius Kitchen show. You all have shown up in massive numbers to make this book a success. Ultimately, we had an incredible book launch, Absolutely incredible. Fun, successful, energizing, and the book is helping you. Like right now, the lazy genius kitchen is making your kitchens work better for you. And that's what ultimately matters, right? That's absolutely what matters the most, which is why, even though making the New York Times mattered to me, it didn't matter the most. And I had some language. I had to find some language. I defined some language on how to handle the disappointment of not making it while I waited for the list to come out.

If I didn't make it, I realized it had nothing to do with me. I wrote a great book. My team created an incredible launch and my community is the best on the internet. We have everything to be proud of and the launch was worthy of the biggest celebration no matter what happened with the lists. and I did enough to be on the list, but sometimes that doesn't matter. Now, the fact that the book made it was amazing. And maybe you could say, you could say I deserved it, but a ton of authors deserve it and don't get it. That's just the truth.

It is a tricky thing to care about something that's so arbitrary and doesn't ultimately matter, but also really kind of does. Like in the same breath, many authors are like, I don't care. And also, I really, really care so much. It's just a weird place to be because the New York Times is a weird list to make because it's a weird way to choose books based on a weird list of requirements. It's just some humans in a room. So making that list was incredible, but also if I hadn't made it, it would still be incredible. And that's the deal with bestseller lists. This ended up being way longer than I anticipated, but no matter, there you go. There is the behind the scenes of bestseller lists. As far as I understand them and no one fully does, it is a miscellar lists. It is a miscellar list. It's a wild weird industry, you guys. I hope this was fun, a fun, interesting listen. I'm guessing if you're here at the end, it was to a point. I appreciate you listening. And until next time, be a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. I'm Kendra. I'll see you on Monday. Have you ever felt like you were living just a B or B plus life? It's so dangerous to live that,

more dangerous than a B minus or a C plus life? Because when you're living a B or B plus life, you don't change it. You think it's good enough. Sit. I'm Susie Welch. I host a podcast called Becoming You. People think, okay, an A-plus life is not available to me, but there is a way. We are all in the process of becoming ourselves. Listen to Becoming You wherever you get your podcasts.