The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 012: How To Become A Master Negotiator With John Lowry

Episode Date: May 8, 2015

Episode 012: How To Become A Master Negotiator With Dr. John Lowry   John and I met almost 10 years ago while I attended one of his negotiation training classes.  Like most people, I struggle to sit in a room and listen to someone present for 2 days.  In the case of John’s training, that was NOT the case.  It still is the greatest training course I’ve ever attended.  So much so that I have attended it 5 more times since then.  This conversation took off from there and it was so much fun.  John has become a friend of mine and I’m very fortunate to be able to speak with him on a regular basis about all parts of leadership and life.   “Negotiation is a strategic communication process to get a deal or to resolve a problem.”– Dr. John Lowry   Welcome to Episode 010 with the President of The Lowry Group Dr. John Lowry Subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher Radio.   The Learning Leader Show   “Show me your friends and I’ll show you your future.” – John Wooden   Some Questions I Ask: Why do many people grasp the ideas you articulate intellectually and yet fail to implement them in a meaningful way? How do you so effectively use story telling in your presentations? How can we all become better story tellers? Why do you think there is a negative connotation with someone who is a “shrewd” negotiator? What negative self-talk have you had to overcome? Do you operate out of a sense of obligation to anything or anyone?   “Leadership is about relationships.” – Dr. John Lowry   In This Episode, You Will Learn: How to know when to compete or when to cooperate in a negotiation The importance and the art of storytelling The power of productive paranoia How to deal with self-doubt The people/things John feels obligated to The 5 Approaches to Conflict How people can implement what they’ve learned The thought process we have surrounding dreaming big   Continue Learning Go to John's website   Read Great By Choice Read about one of John’s mentors: Donald Miller   You may also like these episodes:   Episode 001: How to become a master connector with Jayson Gaignard from MasterMind Talks Episode 002: How to take over and set bigger goals with Chris Brogan Episode 003: The incredibly interesting story of Maurice Clarett and how he built a 6 figure income after spending 4 years in prison Episode 009: The Creative Leader’s Guide to making money by thinking outside of the Box with Jason Zook (SurfrApp)   Did you enjoy the podcast? As I said before, John has become a good friend of mine and I’m incredibly lucky to be able to speak with him on a regular basis.  He is an absolute professional and is a phenomenal presenter.  Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show!   Bio: John Lowry is a lawyer, professional speaker, and entrepreneur. He serves as the Vice President for External Affairs at Lipscomb University in Nashville, TN. He previously served as associate dean of the Lipscomb University College of Business where he founded Lipscomb’s School of Executive Education. He serves as an assistant professor of management and regularly teaches negotiation courses at the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution at Pepperdine University School of Law. He is a Founding Board Member of the Williamson County Chamber of Commerce and serves on the board of The Blakeford at Green Hills, a continuing care retirement community in Nashville, TN. Dr. Lowry also serves as the president of the The Lowry Group (TLG). At TLG, he provides negotiation, mediation, and conflict management training and facilitation for major insurance companies, healthcare organizations, and other businesses. Throughout Lowry’s career, he has trained thousands of professionals around the country. Prior to moving to Nashville, he practiced law with Strasburger & Price, LLP in Dallas, Texas   Episode edited by the greatJ Scott Donnell      

What I hear from the best leaders, and I'm privileged to get to work with so many of them all the time, they always talk about what they learned. They're always looking to learn something. They're always looking to try something different and figure out a way to do it better. It's attitude more than anything, Ryan. And if you have the right attitude, you're going to see the right results. If you don't have the right attitude, it's really hard to get better. Are leaders born or are they made?

Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. And welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Tonight's guest, another really special one for me. It's John Lowry. John is a very dynamic guy.

I originally met him about, that's almost 10.000. 10 years now at a negotiation training seminar that he led. To this day, it is still the best training course I've ever been to. And it's all on the art and the science behind negotiation, full of phenomenal stories and real takeaways that you can implement into your day job, life, relationships with your spouse or your kids or friends, just phenomenal stuff. In tonight's talk, we talked about a number of really, really interesting topics. How to know when to compete or when to be cooperative in a negotiation.

the importance and the art of storytelling and the power of productive paranoia. Again, John is a really dynamic, intelligent, giving guy. Without further ado, it's John Lowry. Hey, John, how you doing, man? Hey, Brian, great to be with you. Awesome. Well, I really, really, again, appreciate you coming on. And I know that the guest here or the listeners are in for a treat.

Because, you know, for the people who don't know you, I love for you to give, you know, a brief bio on what John Lowry is all about and what you're up to. Well, Ryan, you're very kind. What you're doing is really what I'm all about in terms of thinking about helping people become better every single day. I am privileged to have the opportunity to speak to many different groups across the country, thinking about leadership, managing conflict, dealing with difficult moments, and specifically the negotiation skill set. And that's Ryan how you and I connected years ago at this point in

terms of some negotiation training program. And it's just a real honor and great fun in terms of having the opportunity to share with people some skills that they can literally, regardless of what they do or what profession they're in, some skills that they can take and become more successful with literally starting the very next day. Now, with that all being said, I also sort of as vice president of external affairs at Lipscomb University, where I manage government relations, community relations, do some legal counsel work for the university, and that's really my laboratory. That's the opportunity for me to learn and for me to watch these dynamics and experience these dynamics that I can then reflect upon and coach people through in their particular context as

well. All of this kind of comes from a legal background, and I spent many years early in my career, as a litigator. And in that process, I learned very quickly that by the time that difficult moments or challenging circumstances or relationships get to a point to where they find themselves in the litigation context, it's really too late to find a constructive solution there. And that really led me on this journey to say, how is it that you can equip people to deal with some of the difficult moments that just come in with life and that are just inherent in terms of being. being a professional and being a person. And how is it that you can provide people with the skills that they need to be able to move through those moments in a way that deals with the issues that they have?

But more significantly, helps people honor the relationships that are so critical, especially from a leadership standpoint. As I think about leadership, leadership's really about relationships. And one of the biggest threats to those relationships is conflict. And so that's what gets me up in the morning and gets me excited about the kind of work that you're doing here on this podcast. I love it, man. You're so well-spoken, man. You make everybody just at ease, I think, listening to what you're going to say next. So you're especially, at least from when I first got to meet you, and I know you've branched out and you've grown,

but your specialty to me is the art and the science of negotiation. And it's one of the most interesting topics, literally in the world, I think, to a lot of people. because people negotiate constantly every single day, whether it's with your kids, your spouse, certainly at work, if you're in your line of work when you, especially your previous role as an attorney. And that's why I think it's so interesting. So how did you become a specialist, I would say, in the art and science of negotiation? Well, before you can become an expert in anything, you have to become a student. And where I experienced it was really coming out of law school and going into the practice of law, I realized very quickly that my legal education didn't necessarily prepare me for what I was doing.

And what I was doing was I was negotiating. And that's what determined my success as a young lawyer. And so once I realized that, I became a pretty avid student of the negotiation process. and from there just became fascinated with it and have spent now years upon years in terms of studying it and thinking about it with people in a wide variety of context. You know, I mean defined negotiation is a strategic communication process to get a deal or to resolve a problem. So if you just kind of reflect on where in life that you do that, it's amazing that you kind of reflect on that process and you say everywhere. I do that as a parent. I do that as a business person. I do that as an attorney. I do that as a

volunteer for whatever civic organizations that I volunteer with. You just negotiate everywhere. And so if you think about what is one skill that it makes perfect sense to invest in to become better at whatever you do, that skills negotiation. And it was really coming to that realization. that I said, you know, I can really help people if I can help them think about how to become better negotiators. Because being a better negotiator will make you a better spouse and a better volunteer and a better employee and a better leader and a better friend. And out of all of that, people can, I think, find great success by focusing on one particular skill set. I really don't know another skill set other than maybe leadership that can allow people such success so quickly

than the skill of negotiation. And that's really what focused my attention on it so narrowly. What do you think about the people who maybe they hear the negotiation and they think negative thoughts or they think or somebody is labeled as a great negotiator? They think the person is shrewd or they think it's they're not a win-win type even though we've, I've learned from you and others that the best ones are typically that way. But there are, you know, fractions of people out there who, you know, they think of like a baseball agent like Scott Boris who negotiates, you know, Alex Rodriguez's contract or something, and he's known as a shrewd negotiator.

When in reality, I'm guessing if you studied him, you would find that he's, he understands the art and science behind it really, really well. So when you find those people, what are some of the things you say to them? Well, it's interesting that you say that. Part of the dynamic you just described is cultural, and that is here in the United States, we don't negotiate as often as people do in other countries. So, for example, I mean, you can imagine, right, if you're going to Walmart or Target or your local grocery store, and you've got all your items in the checkout line there, and you put them on the belt, and there's someone that's scanning them through, and here comes your toothpaste, and it scans in at $2.99,

and you look at the clerk and say, oh, come on, what do you think? I got a buck 50 in cash right now where you take it. Everyone around you is going to look at you like you're crazy, right? Like, that's just not how we do business, except for the really kind of big ticket items. And so part of the reason that there is perhaps a connotation affiliated with negotiation is that culturally it's just not something that we do as much. And that actually creates some challenges in terms of development. very competent negotiation skills, especially if we're working in a larger kind of global context.

The other thing that's very interesting about negotiation that I think creates the connotation you're referring to is the fact that very competitive negotiation is hard on relationships. That's just something that's been proven. And so when people think about shrewd negotiators and they think about highly competitive people, one of the reasons that they have perhaps a negative connotation is because those folks are engaging in a process that is just simply hard on relationships. And so that's why there's been so many scholars that have thought about this process and have literally defined and helped develop a different way in which people can solve problems and put deals together. one that, as I said before, deals with issues but also honors the relationships. And so as people become more skillful, I think what they quickly see is that those that are very competitive, they're not bad people, they're just competitive.

And that's just their style of negotiation. And it's a style that can be managed very well if you have the skills to do so. So I think some of the connotation is accurate in terms of the description. but I think at times there's easy ways to overcome it once you understand this process a bit more fully. You know, one of the things that I really find both educational and entertaining when I see you present, and I've seen, I think, you four or five times I've watched you present over the last,

what, five, six, seven years. It's incredible is the fact that you weave storytelling into the message and people remember. I mean, I still remember the Frank O'Harris story. I'd love for you actually to tell either that or a story similar that relates to negotiation because that's what sticks with people. I'm reading a book called Talk Like Ted. I don't know if you've read it about presenting by Carmine Gallo. I think the person's name is who wrote the book.

And what they talk about is that people remember the stories within the messages, and that's how it sticks, right? and I got to believe you've studied that too as a part of your presentation ability being at such a high level. And can you talk a little bit about the importance and the art of storytelling while you're presenting these really important topics? Yeah, I totally agree with you, Ryan, in terms of thinking about the power of story. Here at Spark, Lipscomb's Idea Center in Nashville, Tennessee, where I am this morning, we have a great relationship. with an author by the name of Donald Miller. And Donald does a program here called Story Brand, where he helps people, specifically

business leaders, think about how to see their engagement with customers as a large story. And it's very interesting because what he says is that many times businesses put themselves in the wrong role in the story. And businesses typically want to be the same. the hero. And what Don says is that businesses are much better in terms of being the guide. And as he breaks down story, there's always a hero, there's always a villain, and there's always a guide. And people aren't necessarily looking for a hero. People are looking for a guide.

And so as I think about engaging people and I'm just so privileged to have the opportunity to do on a regular basis. I try to just be the guide. And one of the ways in which you coach people is you just simply share stories, stories that they can relate to and can connect with. Obviously, with your background, as a football player, the Franco Harris story hits home. And that's a fun story that comes out of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania back in 1984, where R. Rooney was negotiating a new contract for Franco Harris with Franco Harris's agent. And it's a story to where they go back and forth, and it's one of these moments that's a bit of a unique negotiation to where the agent kept asking for more. And Art Rooney kept saying yes. And so the agent said, we want a deal for $525,000,

not $385,000. And Art Rooney said, okay, well, I think I can make that work. And then the agent says, well, we want to have that money guaranteed. And Rooney says, well, I think I'm a I can make that work. And the agent says, well, we want a second year at $625,000. And Rooney says, well, I think I can make that work. And finally, they get to a point to where the numbers got so outrageous that Art Runny says, hey, listen, I'm just, I'm not comfortable with this deal. I don't think we're going to be able to move forward. And what's so brilliant about this particular process is that the very next day, Art Rooney goes out and does a press conference and talks about how it's so disappointing that, Franco Harris will no longer be a member of the Pittsburgh Steelers. As the press investigate and kind of hear the story, they're quick to blame the agent. And they're quick to put this on the agent. The agent's greed for the reason that Franco Harris is headed to Seattle to be a running back for the Seahawks, the upcoming season. And yet, if you reflect back on it, and the story was actually broke by a New York Times investigative reporter about three weeks later,

what Arruni did that was so masterful was he used the negotiation process to get out of his business dilemma. And his business dilemma was that he was looking at a doctor's report that said that Franco Harris's knee was shot and that it wouldn't survive the rigors of another NFL season. And upon reading that report, he had made the decision that he was not going to sign Franco Harris to a future contract. The challenge was that Franco was a hero in Pittsburgh. People loved Franco Harris and he couldn't just not sign him. He couldn't just send him packing. And so he had to do something.

And being a pretty savvy business person that Art Rooney was, he set the agent up to where the agent became the fall guy. And he almost pulled it off except for this investigative reporter that found out the truth and broke the story. But what it illustrates is how powerful the negotiation process can be to where you're able to accomplish many things. set the process upright. And one of the big things is for people to understand about negotiation is that there's a substance aspect and there's a process aspect. And many people are quick to

focus on the substance, but the real magic lies in the process. In that story, so I just thought of this literally, wouldn't though, because part of being a great negotiator is the fact that you can build a relationship with the person you're negotiating with to the point where you can negotiate with them again and again and again. Wouldn't acting like Art Rooney did potentially damage that relationship because that agent is probably going to be the agent for other players, right, moving forward. I know about this. I've talked with my younger brother's agent. His name is Mike McCarty from Priority Sports in Chicago and he's a great guy. We talk a lot about the fact that you can't really, I don't know the right term, even when they say,

screw the team or try to do that because you know you're going to be negotiating with with them again in the future. A good agent has, you know, 15, 20, 30, 40 guys. So you're going to probably negotiate with pretty much every team, whether it's in the NFL or NBA. And you don't want to, whether you call it, burn a bridge or ruin relationships by being shrewd or doing something that could potentially make them look bad.

Absolutely. And that's what we call the mixed motive dynamic in negotiation to where there is a desire to compete. There's a desire to get a great deal to win. but there's also then a desire to create a longstanding relationship and typically those relationships are born out of collaboration and cooperation, not competition. And so Jay Paul Getty, famous oil tycoon from the West Coast out in California, people go and visit his art museum in the thousands every year. He has a great quote that said that if I have to make every penny in the deal, chances are I'm not going to have very many deals. It's a recognition that you have to balance both the issue and what's on the table with the relationship that exists around the table.

And as a result of that, that's the first dilemma that negotiators have to overcome is how competitive or how cooperative am I going to be. And there are certainly limits on both depending upon what your objectives are. If you don't care about the relationship, by all means, compete. At the same time, there are some relationships that are so important that competition would be foolish. And I certainly saw this in terms of my practice of law to where people turned over relationships, very important business relationships, to lawyers that, frankly, they weren't hired to protect the relationship. They were hired to win the issue. They were hired to bring a settlement to the case that it was a favorable settlement for their client. But by turning it over to the lawyers and

turning it over to people that aren't as sensitive to the relationship, that can create real challenges from a business standpoint. So anytime anyone is in a negotiation, that is the balance that has to be had. And that's exactly what the agent was saying in terms of saying, look, I want to get great deals for my clients, but I'm going to have to negotiate with this general manager again, and I've got to do so in such a way that I can be successful in the next negotiation and the one that follows that and so forth. You know, I'm naturally a really competitive guy. However, it seems to me, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that being competitive

in these situations almost would never be in your best interest, assuming that you're going to talk to people again, right? So I know you talk about being competitive and cooperative or watch the videos that you put on your website and YouTube. And so when would somebody choose to be competitive? competitive versus being cooperative since a lot of people, it's not like these things are one and done. And maybe it sounds like in the law practice, some of those were where people just did not care. They're going to just compete, compete, compete, compete, and knowing that I'm never going to have to, you know, negotiate with this person again.

But it seems like more often than not, you are going to negotiate with whoever it is that you're talking to. Yeah, it's a fascinating dynamic. Yesterday, I was in an event with the president and CEO of the International Justice Mission. This is a man that used to work for the U.S. Department of Justice, I believe, and then literally went and launched his own organization and now had 700 people that are working across the globe to free people from slavery and sexual exploitation and all of that horrific stuff. And it was really interesting to hear him talk about the need to fight. And there are some things that are frankly just worth fighting for.

And so as we start thinking about, you know, when does it make sense to be crazy competitive? Well, it's in those moments to where you truly don't care about the relationship with the person that you're negotiating with. What's more important is the issue. And for this particular gentleman who runs the international. Justice mission, what is far more important to him is the issue about the exploitation and the enslavement of these people rather than the relationship with the folks that are committing these atrocities. And as a result, while what they're doing is an extremely good work, one of the things that

has to be part of that is competition. Otherwise, they're not going to achieve their objectives. And so there are moments to where the relationship doesn't matter. you're exactly right. When you're thinking about things in the business context, when you're thinking about working in communities, the relationship is typically pretty important. And so you've got to be careful in terms of how that relationship gets managed. And many times that relationship will be advanced through more cooperative and collaborative type strategies. In your line of work or your business, your life, when do you ever get, have to get really, really competitive? Are

there's specific examples you could share where you've you've had to be competitive as in John now, not necessarily helping with somebody else, but in for yourself. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, if you think about, you know, there's a lot of moments to where, as I'm, you know, being dad and being in some other roles, there are moments where, especially, you know, with kids and things like that, I think, you know, part of being a good dad is being an advocate for your kid. And I think everyone would kind of agree with that. And sometimes it's important for your children to see you advocate for them. And so, you know, we've had moments in terms of, you know,

some things that have happened around, you know, Little League and things like that to where, you know, there's been some dynamics with teams and those kind of moments. They're just, you know, it's just kind of wrong. There was people that got left out. And as a result of it, you had kids with feelings hurt and things like that. And there are moments where you just kind of have to step up and deal with that. And at the end of the day, you've got to be competitive in terms of making people understand that the issue is really important and that what they're doing is wrong. And that can be a bit tense in terms of the relationships,

but it's critically important for, in some cases, my children to see me advocating on their behalf because it's a way in what you can express love for them and they'll know forever that you're in their corner. But it's also, many times, it's the way that you have to correct a wrong. And you sometimes just can't get people's attention by going in with a very soft approach. It requires you to come in with a bit more of a heavy hand, if you will. And so I experience those things. They're not comfortable.

And so you don't want to experience them very often. But there are moments where, yeah, you've got to step up. So obviously the teaching that you do is, like I've said before, is very impressive. The second part of the deal, though, is when the people leave the room and they have to go execute, it seems to be that there's no matter what the training is, no matter how good it is, whether it's Tony Robbins or John Lowry or anybody in between, people are able to grasp the ideas, I think they can articulate the ideas. A lot of these people are very intelligent you're speaking with because it's not cheap.

you know, so to speak, yet people then go out into the real world or they go out into their job and they fail to implement them in a meaningful way. And are there specific things that people can do to be better at that part of it? Because like I said, I've seen it. People grasp it. They understand it. They take a lot of notes. They love the stories. They love the training. They get back to their day job. They get back with their spouse. They get back with whatever. And they struggle. They don't, they don't implement. What can people do to make sure the learnings they take are implemented? Sure.

Great question. So the first thing is, I think people have to be committed to getting better. I think they have to be willing to reflect on how they do things and be willing to look at those and consider changing how they do things. And there are some people that, frankly, that's just very difficult for them. And I get that. That's one of the reasons that our training is so experiential is by just telling them that you should do it this way, it's not going to be effective. They've got to experience the success that can come with doing it in a different way.

They also have to experience the limitations in terms of doing it their way. So I think the first thing is it's really a question of commitment. Can you commit to becoming better? And if so, that sets the foundation then for having courage to experiment and to try it differently. And many times what we encourage people to do is we say, listen, you know, focus on one particular move, whether it be your opening offer, whether it be doing handling a concession differently, but just experiment a little bit. Try it out on a very small scale before you completely go and try to transform. you know, who you are as a leader or as a negotiator. The third thing that I would say is that it's really important to do it together with someone

who knows what you're doing and someone who can coach you through it a little bit. Because many times, just like anything, you're not skillful at it. And so it may not go well. So you may have to try it a couple of times, get some troubleshooting and additional coaching before it becomes a very sound skill that can make you better. And so I think if people come into any sort of professional development kind of experience with that attitude and they're ready to carry out that process on the back end of it, it will be a very, very good investment.

However, for some folks, as we get with them or others get with them, it's really a challenge in terms of getting people to a place to where, you know, they're ready to grow. And as you think about leaders, it's so fascinating. What I hear from the best leaders, and I'm privileged to get to work with so many of them all the time, they always talk about what they learned. They're always looking to learn something. They're always looking to try something different and figure out a way to do it better. It's attitude more than anything, Ryan. And if you have the right attitude, you're going to see the right results. If you don't have the right attitude, it's really hard to get better.

I love that man that's like the theme of this show man it's like I told you to say that that is perfect because I truly truly am passionate and love learning from people exactly like you just described and that's why I got to believe you've probably improved so much over time even though like I said I've seen you it's got to be seven or eight years since since the first time I've seen you present and you were great then too but just being around other great people who are always striving to get better and learn and then probably share those learnings because one of the best ways to learn is to teach others you always learn something while you're doing it I've already learned like I said I think I've already learned so much in a really really short period

of time from a really diverse group of people that it's made it one of the coolest things about doing this is to have friendly open conversations with really smart creative people who are always striving to get better. People who are not like that, I just, I don't have as a guest on this show. They have to be somebody who is like legitimately pushing towards something, trying to improve, trying to get better in some way, shape, or form. And that's inspiring to me. So I love, I love that what you just said. That was perfect. Yeah, you know, Abraham Lincoln has a really great quote that I absolutely love where he says, you know, if I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six hours sharpening my axe. Oh yeah. I love it. And in that quote, I think it just communicates

everything that we talked about so powerfully in terms of saying, you know, it's not about chopping down the tree. It's it's about how sharp your axe is. And if you think about that from a professional standpoint, I don't know if we spend enough time sharpening our axe. If we did, I think people would see a lot stronger results in terms of who they are and how they're performing. Completely agree. Now, every time I've seen, you, I'm listening to here and people who are listening can get this sense. You have this calm confidence about you and the way you speak and I'm sure I'm not the first person to tell you that. Do you ever have moments of self-doubt, of negative self-talk type speak that a lot of people go through?

Do you have those moments? If so, how do you deal with those? Yeah, you know, it's a great question. Just to be very transparent with you, you know, I have those moments all the time when, you know, you think about what you want to accomplish in life. And, you know, one of the things that is a blessing and a curse is having great ambition and having big vision and wanting to see big things happen. And, you know, where the self-doubt comes in is thinking about many of those things that you love to see happen. It requires a tremendous vulnerability. It requires tremendous sacrifice. And you constantly have this conversation, or at least I do, of can I do it? Does that make sense? Would I be successful? All of those kind of things.

And I'll tell you, you know, that negative self-talk can be very, very limiting. It may save your tail sometimes, but I do everything I can to try to overcome it. But I'm as, you know, challenged by it as anyone in terms of constantly dealing with, do I dream big enough? And if I want to go do something, am I willing to do what it takes to go accomplish that? That's a personal struggle that I'm involved in kind of every single day. And so while having the opportunity to kind of speak to people and do all of that, while that's very comfortable, to be very honest with you, there is a level of self-doubt associated with some of the larger things that I hope can be accomplished in this lifetime.

It's always a reminder. I was with someone the other day, and we were talking about education, and they said, you know, you only get to be in third grade once. And so you got to accomplish everything you want in third grade that you want to accomplish in third grade. And we were having that conversation from a teacher standpoint saying you only get to teach these kids in third grade once. And so you've got to accomplish everything with them that you want to accomplish in that year where you only get to live once. And as a result of that,

I perhaps, and I think others too, you know, need to think about how do you be more intentional so that you can leave the kind of legacy that you want to leave? You can make the kind of impact. It doesn't just happen, as I've experienced. It requires a ton of sacrifice, a ton of work, a ton of relationships, and also a ton of will and a confidence inside to overcome what I think all of us deal with. And that's some of that negative self-doubt you just shared. In the, I think Jim Collins and Great by Choice, a great, first of all, great book, but a great term, he called it productive paranoia and that great leaders and great performers in life are productively paranoid, even if they're doing, I've been very lucky to.

to meet some really successful people in all fields of work. And it seems to be, I'd always, whenever I meet them, I'm always, I'm sometimes, I'm shocked, whether they're, they're athletes or, you know, whether an actor or something like that, that those people absolutely have doubt in themselves. They're not fully, you know, once you kind of, you know, get to know them and they're more vulnerable and they talk more, it's even though they come across, whether you see Montevilla is the most confident person with not a care in the world. but they're productively paranoid.

They really, really are. And I think that's part of what drives certain people in whatever it is that they do, that they're constantly thinking, am I thinking big enough, am I doing enough, am I working hard enough to achieve my dreams to whatever their why is? A lot of people, and it might be in your case too, their why is their family, their wife, their children. You know, you want to be showing a great example for them, and am I doing enough for them to show, to lead by example?

And that's why I'm glad you brought up your children earlier because I think that's part of my personal productive paranoia is to always be saying, am I stretching enough? Am I jumping outside of my comfort zone enough? Am I doing things to prove to them, not by words, but by actions? They give them the will, so to speak, to say, well, my dad does it, right? My husband does it, right? As my wife's watching what I do, to say, wow, if he does all those things, that kind of inspires me to want to do those things. And I think that's part of that productive paranoia. Yeah, part of the journey I'm on, Ryan, is this idea of saying, you know, if you can define what it is that you want to do and the kind of impact that you want to have, you know, one of the best things in terms of getting there most efficiently is to remove everything else.

And there's some practical limitations to that, obviously. But to really think about how it is that you focus. And that can be a tremendous challenge, especially in. in this day and age where there is so much polling at people and there is so much entertainment and there is so much that people can consume their time with, it is very easy to go through life and to have it kind of just happen around you, be very busy and engaged and yet look back and say, you know, what have I really accomplished that is in my heart of hearts, you know, what I want to do. One of the things that my father says that is, I think, extraordinarily true,

as he says, you know, the days are long, but the years fly by. And I've certainly experienced that in my own life to where you look back and you're like, oh my goodness, it's Christmas again. Like I had all these ideas in terms of what I wanted to accomplish this year. And here's Christmas and I haven't done them. And the years fly by. And so kind of a fun little thing. thing to keep in mind. So you brought up your dad and, you know, your dad is very, very successful in his own right. My dad, both my parents, so I have a great relationship with both of them. They have a great example of what a marriage is and I've studied it and lived it.

And my dad specifically is very, very successful in his work. We talk almost every day and he's helped me more than I could ever imagine. But the one thing I would say, and I'm curious how, how you're. your relationship is with your dad when it comes to this. He was probably successful enough to where we as kids, me and my brothers, could have maybe gone down the easy path and not worked hard. But he was so big on making sure that did not happen, on making sure that we had to put into work. We did the things necessary to be successful in our own right, regardless of what he's accomplished in his life. And there's probably no better way you can lead your children

than to force them down that path, not by doing anything, you know, brutal, but just saying, you know, hey, you're going to have to figure this out. I'm obviously here to support you when you need it, but I am going to let you figure these things out on your own, and you're going to have to work for everything that you get. You're not going to be given anything. And so, you know, you can talk a little bit about your dad's success and he's had a ton of it. And then you have as well. So obviously there's something to learn there because we're all trying to think of like, how can I make sure my kids are successful? And I love for you to touch on on that when it comes to the relationship with you and your dad and then how that leads on to you and your kids.

Yeah, you know, my dad really broke a cycle in his family. He was raised by a single mother and didn't have a father in his life and didn't have much opportunity. And it was just through pure hard work that he got to where he is today is the president of one of the leading universities in the South. And he's not the most talented guy in the world, although he's pretty talented, but he does care passionately about people, and he is willing to work extraordinarily hard, and I think that that separates him from a leader's standpoint. With that being said, the only model I've ever had is watching him work and watching him sacrifice and watching how he cares about people and learning leadership from that model.

And as a result of that, you know, those are lessons that are deeply ingrained. And I feel the tremendous challenge of passing those on to my kids as well. you and I both have the opportunity to work with our fathers, which is kind of unique. And, you know, as part of that, I really appreciate the fact that, you know, my father's willing to let me fail when I need to fail. Yeah. And there are things that, you know, just they don't get managed well and, you know, things kind of blow up. And those are important lessons. There's also lessons to where, you know, at the end of the day, the only way that something's going to get done is.

is if there's going to be a lot of work that gets done. And for him allowing that to happen as well instead of finding another solution, but teaching those lessons is really important. One of the things that my parents did that was so valuable to me was that they didn't shelter me at all. I remember Ryan, I had a kid that I grew up playing soccer with

that developed a brain tumor. And he was in Children's Hospital, L.A., My mother kind of became his surrogate mother in the absence of his mother in this ordeal. And I remember as a 12-year-old child driving up to Children's Hospital in Los Angeles and having my mother and father look at me in the car before we go into the hospital and say, we just want you to understand that, you know, David may die tonight. He's not doing well. Things are very difficult for him.

And we just want you to be prepared. Now, with us saying that, we want you to walk in. We want you to love on him. We want you to be his friend. If he can talk, talk, if he can laugh, laugh, have fun. But we want you to be prepared for what could happen. And, you know, that's a lot for a 12-year-old to take. Many parents would say, whoa, that's probably way too much.

But I'll tell you, it really shaped this 12-year-old in terms of having my folks kind of prepare me for the path as opposed to having my parents kind of create a path. for me. And in that path, when they're the difficult moments, allowing me to experience those, even at a young age, it's made those difficult moments as they've come later in life much more easier to deal with. And so I will always be grateful to my parents for that. It's a great story, man. I appreciate you sharing it. Based on that, do you operate out of a sense of obligation to anything? Yeah, I think I operate out of a sense of obligation to my family. family. You know, I call it kind of the, I call it the F's in my life. And I think I operate out of an

obligation to these things. You know, number one is my faith. That's very important to me. Number one, I kind of call it the four. And those are the four people in my immediate family. And so that drives me, and there's certainly an obligation there. Here are a couple of other things that people may say, huh, that's kind of interesting that that's part of, you know, some of the top five things. But, you know, the third is to think about having freedom. And when I mean freedom, it's, you know, the opportunity to pursue the ideas that you want to pursue and to have the opportunity to go and do the kind of things that you want to do. That's just, that's really important, at least as I kind of live my life. And, and as a result of that,

I've taken significant pay cuts in exchange for that freedom. And working in a higher education context allows me that kind of freedom, but it hasn't come without a cost. And then the fourth thing is fun. And another kind of unique thing, but life's just not worth living if it's not a whole heck of a lot of fun. And I think there are a lot of folks that, you know, they just don't make enough time to,

really have fun and I think fun is very good for the soul and keeps us energized and keeps us at our best. And so, you know, I try to make room for fun in my life as well. And so I feel an obligation to those things. I think the fifth thing on that is financial security. And some folks, again, would say, well, money shouldn't be important, but, you know, financial security for a family of five, is important to deliver, and I feel an obligation to that. So those five things are what I feel an obligation to every single day, certainly with faith being the most important of those. John, that's an awesome, awesome way to wrap this thing up.

I literally, as your dad would say, this thing is flown by. And I loved it. I really appreciate it. I love if hopefully in the future, maybe when you get a book out or something, And that's, I know you're working on that we could do this again because I learn a lot every time we talk. I'm very lucky to have met you and been able to keep a relationship going to where we can, you know, have phone conversations in between the trainings you do. And just very, very grateful for it, man. So, so thank you so much.

Well, Ryan, I appreciate you. I just want you to know that you're doing more good than you could ever know. Thank you, man. with this particular podcast and the other great work that you're doing and raising your family. I admire that and wish you the best as you continue to serve. Thank you, man. So is there any other places you want to tell people to go or things you got going on, you want to tell listeners about that you're doing?

Yeah, absolutely. So our next opportunity to come and kind of be part of one of our negotiation experiences will be May 14th and 15th here in Franklin, Tennessee. We have what's called our negotiation navigator program, which is a day and a half program to where people can come and learn some of these critical business but also critical life skills that will have immediate impact on their success. It starts at 1 o'clock on the 14th, which means people can fly in from around the country that morning to Nashville. and it'll last through Friday evening, which means that you can enjoy Nashville throughout the weekend. And so a great opportunity for folks,

and to learn more about that, go to lauriegroup.net, the Lowry Group website. In addition to that, we also teach every year out at the Pepperdine University Strauss Institute in the School of Law, and that program will be coming up in late June, and it's another great opportunity for people to come and to learn these skills. And so to learn more about that, go to the Pepperdine Law School website as well.

So those are kind of the next two big programs. And then there's the blog that would love to have people be a part of. And again, you can find that on the Lowry Group website. I wouldn't guarantee a lot of things. but to go see John speak in person as well as go through the trainings, I would absolutely guarantee that you would come away and you would thank me and say it was awesome. And people get a lot out of it because, like I said, I've seen you do the same training, I think four times.

It's always tweaked a little bit, but I love it and learn something every single time, not something. I learn a lot of things. And it's just, it's really, really great. And I think I'm really, really picky on that stuff too, John. When it comes to the trainings, I've seen a lot of different ones from different types. of people and they all work hard, they try hard, they prepare hard, I'm sure, but they're just not all them are that good, just to be straight with you. And so yours truly is. It's definitely

a fan favorite at the company I work at, and I would urge anybody who's listening that if you can look them up, you'll love it and you'll probably, you'll say thank you afterwards. So John, thanks again, man, for being on. It's been awesome. We're definitely going to do it again. And I look forward to speaking with you, man. Thank you, my friend. Appreciate you. Awesome. Thanks, John. Take care. Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Learning Leader Show. I absolutely love doing this show, as I hope you can tell by the passion that I bring to it on a daily basis.

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