The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 019: Chris Borland – Why He Walked Away From Millions Of Dollars

Starting point is 00:00:00 Being the vehicle that drives a successful mission is what being a leader is all about. So a lot of people, I think, especially in where we kind of live in that macho world where football player or the military or even masculine culture where you have to be this driving, you know, look at me. I think it's kind of leadership's not like that, for me at least. I think if you're in a healthy organization, the best way to be a leader is to just maintain the focus, get everybody on the same page. So I don't know if I had to put it into one quote, I'd say being a leader is being the

Starting point is 00:00:38 vehicle that drives success. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawke, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Extremely excited for the episode tonight. The featured leader, very, very thought-provoking, intelligent guy. It's Chris Borland. A lot of you probably know Chris as the football player for the San Francisco 49ers who walked away from millions of dollars in his NFL career for a number of reasons. The primary one being the potential head injuries you can receive from playing the sport of football. I want to learn about the process for him. how he learned so much about CTE, head injuries, everything that won into it.

Starting point is 00:01:49 Who are the people he talked to? What did he read? What did he research? Also, the response to him walking away. How did people respond to that? What did they say? What questions did they ask him? He's been all over the news sources everywhere globally, TV, across the borders of just the sport of football.

Starting point is 00:02:07 It's a really, really interesting story. Also, did he have to pay back that big signing bonus because he walked away? from the NFL. Really, really interesting stuff. Real quick, I want to thank Paul Stephan, my good friend, for connecting me with Chris. Really, really appreciate that poem. Without further ado, really interesting, thought-provoking guy. It's Chris Borland.

Starting point is 00:02:30 All right, Chris, I have a quote for you that I want to open the show with, and I'm going to say it, I want to get your response based on this quote, okay? All right. All right, man, here it is. The scientist is not the person who gives the right answers. He is the one who asks the right questions. So when I say that quote, and I think it has a lot to do with you and things that, you know, where you live your life as far as questioning things, but I wanted to get your reaction when you hear a quote like that.

Starting point is 00:03:11 Well, I love the quote. I've heard it before. And I think it's vitally important to ask the right questions and also not to pretend that you have all the answers. So I think the quote was very appropriate and I've always liked it. Awesome, man. And so we get into what you're all about. Now, for the few people who haven't heard, even though you've been everywhere recently, Chris was the third round draft pick of the San Francisco 49ers after having a story career at University of Wisconsin

Starting point is 00:03:42 and actually originally from the same place I am here in Southwest, Ohio. He went to Alter High School. I went to Centerville High School. So really, really cool that we had that connection, even though we didn't know each other. But after your rookie season with the 49ers where you had a phenomenal year, turned a lot of heads and made a ton of plays. We can get into everything. You made the decision to retire, to walk away from millions of dollars. And I'll let you get into, I want you know, let you tell the story as far as to why you decided to walk away from the NFL.

Starting point is 00:04:17 The short of it was health risks related to brain trauma. But I think it's important. It was a decision that's unique to me from what I had experienced, not only in the game, but I'm one of seven kids in my family and had a pretty rambunctious childhood. So, yeah, it was that. And it was at the onset of my NFL career, had a concussion in camp that I played through, something that isn't out of the ordinary. but after that I just started looking into it more, always was aware,

Starting point is 00:04:49 and at least the periphery of the dangers. And of course, you know football is not good for you. But the more I looked into it, the harder it was to continue to play for me based on what I had experienced and what I learned. So I would imagine, obviously, this has generated a ton of attention, not just within football, but literally worldwide. And you've been on all types of TV shows and everything and talked about by so many people. what has been the overall response that you've received and is any of it is other any specific

Starting point is 00:05:18 instances that have surprised you well i was pleasantly surprised by how positive the response was you know i thought i'd get more of a lash back and at times i have but for the most part it's been overwhelmingly positive i was also surprised at how much attention it garnered i thought i'd be applying to grad school was looking for a job the week after and said you know i was asked to be on talk shows, which was a little surprising to me. I was allowing for the possibility of that, but I expected far less. But, you know, there's been a couple times where people I've looked up to who are respected have kind of said things that, you know, I wasn't too thrilled about.

Starting point is 00:05:56 But at the end of the day, I think everybody agrees with it, not necessarily the decision, but just following your bliss and doing what's right for you personally. Yeah, and I had Maurice Claret on, and one of the first things we talked about, was you and the fact that Maurice had a lot of opinions. And he said one of the reasons that he wanted to talk about it was because he thought then it was obvious that you had been either brought up right or had a backup plan, so to speak, that maybe other kids or inner city kids like himself didn't have a backup plan or weren't prepared for life after football. But that you obviously had to be if you're willing to walk away literally from millions of dollars and a dream to play in the league. You know, that's not lost on me. I'm really fortunate. You know, we're from the same area. It's relatively affluent. And, you know, my parents have done well and all my older siblings have done

Starting point is 00:06:53 well. So not that they'd give me a handout or anything. I think they'd make me work for it. But I understood that I, one, I got my degree from Wisconsin and two, have a great family and support structure where I didn't have to play football. I played it because I was passionate about it and loved it. But no, I'm sensitive to the fact that a lot of my teammates and friends aren't in the same position. That said, if you're going to use the game to uplift your family, you should actually do that. I think there's guys who spend an awful lot of money on cars and jewelry, and statistics suggest that not everybody leaves the game wealthy. So that might be systemic of a greater problem, but if you're going to use it to uplift your family, you've got to do that.

Starting point is 00:07:34 and to try to encourage my friends to, you know, not spend a quarter of their signing bonus on a car, things like that. But, no, I'm really fortunate and it's not lost on me. Now, do you think there's something we could do specifically to help prepare kids? This would probably need to happen in college because so few make it, you know, like I was one of those guys had a decent college career and was fortunate to be able to earn a scholarship. But, you know, my dreams were to do what you did. make it to the NFL and it didn't happen. I was fortunate, too, to have backup plans, a degree, go to graduate school, all of those

Starting point is 00:08:10 things. Are there specific programs that maybe you've been talking to people or you would even potentially implement or help implement for kids who have that one one and only goal of making it to the NFL? And then if they don't, then they don't have anything to be there for them. What would you say we should do? Well, I think one, it's a big problem. And I haven't been a part of anything.

Starting point is 00:08:33 these past couple months, but I'd be interested in it. I actually talked to Claret and Dr. Harry Edwards, who's a sociologist, and specializes in race and sport. And I think it's a huge problem. I think it's based out of lack of education. And I think the NFL actually does a pretty good job of running, you know, in the rookie symposium or through the NFLPA, some informative talks. But maybe at that point, it's too late. If we could talk to these kids at a younger age that might be beneficial. How it manifests, I don't know, but I think educating youth before they get the money, before guys are in the league, and there's a lot of temptations at every corner.

Starting point is 00:09:14 But, no, I'd love to be a part of something like that. I think it's really important because it doesn't make sense that the guys make this much money oftentimes end up bankrupt. And one of the other interesting things that happened, and I wouldn't imagine that you thought this might happen was, you know, people were calling. you a trailblazer and saying that you could potentially be the guy to lead kind of a revolution of people away from the sport of football. And I know that that wasn't your intent. Your intent was to kind of follow your own passions. So the NFL got a little defensive.

Starting point is 00:09:43 And even the NFL senior vice president of health and safety policy, Jeff Miller, responded with a quote. And his quote was, by any measure, football has never been safer. And we continue to make progress with rule changes, safer tackling techniques at all levels of football and better equipment, protocols, and medical care for players. Everyone involved in the game knows that there is more work to do and player safety will continue to be our top priority. So he responded with that almost immediately after you made your decision. What are your thoughts when you hear him say that?

Starting point is 00:10:18 I mean, I agree. There may never have been a safer time to play football, but that doesn't mean it's safe. I think a further part of that quote or something that was released around the same time was concussions are down 25%. By that logic, in three years, they won't exist. I don't think I don't think concussions are down 25%. I didn't report a couple this past year. So I think, you know, guys, I wasn't in the league in 2013. Maybe they were getting concussions every play, but I don't think that's the case. Football may be safer. And I do think they've taken some positive measures to have neurologists on the sidelines. And for the time,

Starting point is 00:10:59 targeting and the spearing and taking that out of the game is a good step. Just to be truthful, though, I mean, it is a dangerous game and it's not good for you in any way physically. So that's part of the story, and that's okay. I don't want to be a crusader against football. I love football, but, you know, it is dangerous. It's okay to be honest about that. Life's not about getting out alive.

Starting point is 00:11:19 So if it's part of your equation to play the game, by all means, play it. Just understand what you could be getting yourself into. The reported aspect of concussions. is I think a hot topic because I don't think the general public they look at those stats and they look really, really good. But the people who actually play the game, that's a big topic. So for example, you know, I've been fortunate. I got to meet and talk with Alex Smith for a little while, a quarterback now of the chiefs.

Starting point is 00:11:43 And I remember when he was the quarterback of the 49ers, he got a concussion and he reported it. And you probably remember what happened next is Colin Kaepernick came in. Obviously, you know the 49ers well. And he came in and he won the job. and so people look at that, and I've heard this quoted by multiple players in the NFL. They said, look what happened to Alex Smith. He leads a team to the playoffs. He plays great.

Starting point is 00:12:09 He plays really, really well. He's the highest paid guy on the team. He gets a concussion and misses one game and loses his job. Now, what am I supposed to do? I'm the 40th best player on this team, or I'm the 20th best player on this team. If I get a concussion, I'm cut. I'm gone. So I can't get a concussion.

Starting point is 00:12:26 So even if they get one, they're faking it, they're hiding it, they're doing all these things. And I think that runs rampant. And you would know that better than me. So I'm curious to your thoughts on that. Oh, I agree completely. Those 11 spots on the field are extremely valuable. And, you know, like we talked about earlier, there's guys from, you know, backgrounds where they would be willing to take on knowingly every risk of playing through concussions. So when you've played a lot of sports and your family and everyone, Wally Pip.

Starting point is 00:12:56 You know, that's the name you hear a lot when you make it to the Wally Pipp was the first baseman for the Yankees who gets hurt and comes Lou Gehrig and plays for forever, basically. So coaches always throw that around, you know, if you sit out, your Wally Pipp. And guys, I think even are complicit in it themselves. You say, you know, I don't want to like do what happened to Alex Smith. I mean, he gives up his spot doing the right thing, reporting a concussion and wound up being traded. And there's a fear of that, I think, from players. And I mean, I, for example, I can't speak for anyone else, failed to self-report.

Starting point is 00:13:33 I think you're just too highly disincentivized to, and you've worked so hard and there's only 16 games a year. It's just really difficult to, you know, in the fourth quarter of a close game, if you have a miles concussion to say, hey, I think I might not be quite right. Just realistically, I don't think many, many football players are going to do that.

Starting point is 00:13:52 When you see stories like junior sales, Does that scare you a little bit? It did, yeah. You know, I looked into a lot of those guys' stories. You know, Seow, Webster, Dave Doerson, Andre Waters, those guys. And as scary as those are, those guys played for a lot of years. And in the case of, you know, Webster was a drug user. And what scares me more is the story of a guy named Hoffman from North Carolina and a few

Starting point is 00:14:24 high school kids and who didn't play as long as even I have and did some terrible things. So that's frightening to me. I think part of what I've learned is that there's a genetic predisposition to how your brain recovers from these injuries and maybe that is something at play. But yeah, I mean, it is frightening. And a scary part about it to me is that these guys take on all these risks, these health risks doing their job well. it's not an accident it's not you know something went wrong and it's no they played in say i was case

Starting point is 00:14:58 the position of linebacker extremely well and that's actually what what caused you know his demise so at the onset of my career i'm thinking you know if i want to be a pro bowler or at least a starter doing this well for a long time is not good for me and it did strike some fear and to me yeah i i can I can only imagine that when you see a guy playing your same position and what happened to him and he was great. You know, it seemed like he was on top of the world, had all the money, had everything and to commit suicide. Just terrible. So I want to get back a little bit to the first question I asked you about the person, the scientist is the type of person who asked the right questions. What was your process like as you went in to do the research that led to you making this decision?

Starting point is 00:15:46 Well, like any young kid today, I just started Googling stuff, and obviously that's not the best scientific procedure, but it was my window into learning about the individuals, the anecdotes, the guys who, you know, the Dewerson's Watersons, Seyows, all those guys, they're Andre Waters. And after I had learned about those things, I started to look into the science side more. You know, I was a soft science. I was a history major, reader and a writer, not necessarily. a science and math guy. So, but it was revelatory for me to look into those things and see the work they were doing at Boston University where 68 of 85 brains were found to have CTE brains of players or military veterans who'd been introduced to head trauma.

Starting point is 00:16:38 There's a study published around the time of the Super Bowl about at what age you start playing, how it affects you later in life, and, you know, a few other things that just, the NFL zone study that a third of players will suffer from neurological diseases down the road. Those were the specific scientific research that I learned about after having just read anecdotes where I thought, damn, man, I don't know about this. That leads me to, so when you have children, is football a sport, you allow them to play? You know, I think as we stand here in 2015, I'm 24 and I haven't even been on a date in a couple months. I can't really say.

Starting point is 00:17:22 I can't, you know, answer a theoretical, but it's not a hard no either. I think in, you know, maybe 15, 20, 30 years, whenever I have a, you know, a son, if I do, around the age of high school. I think high school football is a great experience and can be done safely. I'd almost be more apt to not let him play if he was tremendously talented because what's to stop you if you had a great experience in high school from wanting to continue that in college. And then again, if you had a great experience in college and you have an opportunity, you'll, of course, want to play in the NFL. So I don't know. I think not a hard no, but there's a lot of circumstantial things that would let me either let him play or not. Hopefully by then it's a slightly different game.

Starting point is 00:18:08 and we know a lot more about what's going on. Because we are like you said can ask some great questions, but I can't pretend to know the exact answer yet. Yeah. Did you talk about this with a lot of your teammates? Not a lot. I didn't want to be a distraction. I had a couple close buddies who weren't playing and confided in them,

Starting point is 00:18:31 but it weighed heavily on me, and I didn't want anybody else to be thinking about it during the year. So, no, I confided in really just two guys, initially and then after the season a few more. But it was a tough thing. I mean, I'd be watching tape, practicing, and then at night go home and research stories of guys who've committed suicide from having CTE. So it's, it was, I had to go to a weird place to get motivated and I didn't really want

Starting point is 00:18:58 to put that on anybody else. Wow. So when did this start? When was that research, like right at the beginning of the year? Yeah, it was before our fourth preseason game. So, you know, I wasn't doing it every day. at that point, but I was familiarizing myself with it. And then, you know, as the season

Starting point is 00:19:13 progressed, read League of Denial, read a couple research studies, around the time of December, I was out with an ankle injury and it gave me more time to look into it. And yeah, I think that's kind of when I knew for sure.

Starting point is 00:19:29 I thought my career would be brief before the season just for these concerns. But I think towards the end of the year, I knew for sure that I was going to hang it up after one year. That's incredible. incredible, man. So did you have to pay back your bonus to the 49ers? I did, yeah. NFL contracts aren't guaranteed, so I knew that walking away,

Starting point is 00:19:49 giving away my salaries for years, two, three, and four of my four-year rookie deal, and then was willing to, and really it's just, I'm in breach of contract, so it's just, it's how you do business. I signed my name on the dotted line, so I owed back three-fourths of my signing bonus. How much was that? Oh, my signing bonus was around 600,000, so 450. Wow. Well, the tricky part here is that is. The tax, too, right?

Starting point is 00:20:18 Exactly. So I got it, you know, if they gave away six, I got three and O back, 450. So we'll be spending some of the money I made through player performance bonuses and my first year's salary to pay it all back. And I'll get a tax refund in a couple of years. Wow, that's incredible, man. So you actually owe more than you got. Through the sign bonus, yes, but I made enough to cover my, cover my tail.

Starting point is 00:20:47 Oh, man, that's incredible. I mean, because in a way, though, they're a breach of contract when they cut you guys, right? I mean, you sign a four-year deal. They could cut you after one and not have to pay you anymore. So in a way, it feels weird that it's, you know, like if a player doesn't play, like that's breach of contract when they're breaching contracts every day. Oh, I, you don't have to explain that to me. I agree.

Starting point is 00:21:12 But, yeah, that's the way that's the way our world currently works in the NFL. And I did sign the dotted line. So I'm just going to pay back. And it's not a bad gig. I mean, I get, it's like winning the lottery when I'm 26. So I can work or go to school until then and then get on with my life. I was going to say, what's next? What are you going to do now?

Starting point is 00:21:31 You know, it is the short of it is, I'm not sure, but it's not due to lack of effort. I've been looking into a ton of things these past couple months and have some really interesting opportunities with a couple companies, a nonprofit organization, and then maybe going back to school. So I get that question a lot. I think from my mom more than anyone, but the short of it's, I don't know, but it's exciting. I think these things are going to be really great for me. Did you becoming such a public newsworthy story, literally worldwide, Like I said, I've seen you on videos and TV shows that were that previously never had talked about football. So that's like where you kind of cross over, which is incredible.

Starting point is 00:22:14 It's really tough to do. Do you think some of that exposure helped with people throughout the country, maybe even in San Francisco? It's a hotbed, a big tech area, a lot of leadership things going on there. Do you think that exposure helped? I mean, it may have. That wasn't my intent. And I think after this kind of blew up, I decided it was right to just simply say my piece to do a couple of things, hopefully, is one, obviously, explain myself.

Starting point is 00:22:45 And two, just define it as a personal decision because all my friends, every contact I've made in my adult life is through football. And basically all my friends are playing the game right now. So certainly not fundamentally against football in any way. And I wanted to be clear about that, about the fact that it was a personal decision. And then while there was so much attention on it, there are a lot of people who've suffered who aren't necessarily given a voice. So, you know, I've attended a few documentaries and I spoke at a few different places. And basically, you know, these guys who've had a number of concussions who aren't, you know, famous and aren't on, you know, NFL live or aren't analysts.

Starting point is 00:23:28 they don't often get to hear their stories be told. And I think it's fair to, it's right by them and it's fair to the guys who are yet to come up who want to be in their shoes. Because, you know, you could become Ray Lewis or you could become junior seow. I think, and that's important for young people to know. Yeah, it's really, really interesting. I think it's, I like that it's created such a story and things to talk about. I think even if that wasn't your initial intent, if there are groups of people who, who are want to focus on potentially telling people not to play the sport of football.

Starting point is 00:24:05 And there are some of those already out there that we've both seen. Are there groups that you would align with that would, if they said that that was one of their primary intents was to either, you know, somehow just eliminate playing the game altogether? Is that something you'd consider being a part of? Well, I would never sacrifice my own convictions to be a part of a group. entirely at least. So if my joining a nonprofit or doing advocacy relied upon me making that stance, then I wouldn't join.

Starting point is 00:24:38 But, no, there are people who say, you know, absolutely not, never play football. I spoke with a group of humanists at Harvard, like a month, a few weeks ago. And they had, during the Super Bowl, they had an I-Hate football party and watched the Puppy Bowl instead. and, you know, they call the game completely dehumanizing and no one should ever play, and it's a war game. And maybe there's some traces of truth to that, but I think that the honest story is a bigger picture. And, you know, I'm not going to attend it. I hate anything party, really. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:25:13 And it seems like you seem like such a grounded and humble guy. And I've been fortunate to have you introduce me to your brother John. We talked a little bit, too. It seems like you come from a really, really great family. that has helped raise all you guys the right way. Talk a little bit about how that has helped you in this process. Oh, by far and away, my family's been probably the most inspiring and supportive group in my life. And that's how it should be for everyone, but I know I'm fortunate that it was the case for me. And throughout this decision, they've been great. I informed my parents first and, you know,

Starting point is 00:25:52 I wrote them a little letter before the season even started that my career may be brief. And right off the bat, they were supportive. And they kind of went on this journey of discovery with me, reading articles, and they read League of Denial. And it had to be tough for them because I know what it's like. And they only have to imagine what it's like. So I'm really fortunate that they were so supportive. All my siblings, there's seven of us total. So they've all been great and supportive and understanding.

Starting point is 00:26:22 just you couldn't ask for anything more from how I was raised to how great they've been through all this. My dad actually acts as my financial advisor as well. So he, uh, his office has been inundated with, with all of this, you know, media frenzy since, you know, since mid-March. So he's, and that, you know, that was right before tax season. So, you know, pleasant. Wow. Dad's, uh, dad's business was a little, was a little busy with stuff that wasn't, uh, he wasn't planning on. And so they've been great.

Starting point is 00:26:52 My family's awesome. I love them all. And so John's going to go teach, this is almost like out of a book, he's going to go teach leadership at West Point. Is that correct? Yeah, I think he starts 2016. Wow. I mean, it's like the greatest place for leaders, I think probably in the country, West Point. And your brother is going to go and be the one who's going to help educate the next leaders of our country.

Starting point is 00:27:20 I mean, that's incredible, man. Yeah, I'm really proud of John. He, you know, he went to West Point and has gotten a couple postgraduate degrees since. He's served overseas, and he's got two young boys. He's happily married. He's got a third on the way. So John's doing great. And it's really exciting.

Starting point is 00:27:41 And it's a treat for a younger sibling to see not only my brother John, but, you know, all my older siblings and even my younger brother, to see them do so well. is, uh, it's not like I got to keep up with the Joneses, but it's like, damn, you know, what have, uh, you know, what have, uh, you know, what have I done lately? These people are doing awesome. Kind of a healthy competition. Absolutely. Yep. I know what that's like. It's great. It's really, really good. Because I mean, you know, the, uh, you're going to be the, the, the, the result or the average of the people, the five closest people to you. And if they're your family members who are performing at high levels, there's, there's nothing better than that, man. Yeah. And it's great. I think, um, one thing I love about my family is,

Starting point is 00:28:20 jealousy never even enters our minds, you know, when one of my siblings is an All-American or another is a West Point graduate or my sister was a world-class Irish dancer. It's the first reaction is always, oh, that's great and we're really happy for you. You never really experience any jealousy or anything like that, and that's just really healthy. Everybody's comfortable in their own skin. That's really cool, man, a world-class Irish dancer. I have not heard of that before, but that's neat. She's got some skills.

Starting point is 00:28:53 She's hung it up, but she could dance. It was pretty impressive. That's cool. I meant to get to this question earlier, but I don't want to get off here without asking it for. So Jim Harbaugh is a guy who is very polarizing. People love them, people hate them, usually not much in between. You know, he obviously left the 49ers to go to the University of Michigan. What was it like playing for him?

Starting point is 00:29:16 Well, I personally loved it. I had a brief experience. but I understand how he could have gotten under people's skins, especially ownership or management. But why is that? Like what would how would he? He's just so hard driving and so intense and competitive. And, you know, I don't know specifically,

Starting point is 00:29:36 but he just, I could imagine that he doesn't compromise. Yeah. But from the player, you know, from a rookie linebacker's perspective, I loved it because one, I think he's more of a player's coach than he gets credit for. And two, if you're competitive and if you want to win, who else would you want to play for?

Starting point is 00:29:53 He'll do anything to win. And so, you know, I respected him and he's true to himself. And I think you know what you're going to get. So that's something you can't always get in this world. And I love to coach hardball for it. Is a guy you still talk with? I haven't. No, I think we've both been pretty busy.

Starting point is 00:30:10 And I was the low man on the totem pole. So if he reaches out, I'd love to speak with him. But, you know, I think he's got a lot going on at Michigan. that don't need to bother him. Yeah, it seems like from hearing maybe from veterans, they felt maybe, and maybe they weren't made up like you either, that he kind of could wear on people over time,

Starting point is 00:30:30 and maybe that's why it was like there were short stints at places. I mean, it could be. I was only with them for, you know, eight months, but I could see that from a, you know, a 10-year vet's perspective, but, you know, I was still that the young guy chomping at the bit. So he was great for me personally. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:30:51 Are you going around and giving speeches or talks, or is that something that you want to make part of your career where you kind of, I don't know, I'm going to say join the speaker circuit, but maybe go around and give speeches on topics around, you know, what you're passionate about? Potentially. I don't know if it's something that I take too naturally, but if there's a place for it, I had the opportunity to meet with General Pete Corelli, who, who was the vice chief of staff of the Army during the Iraq war years. And since his retirement, he served for 40 years in the military. He's taken on a huge initiative at no benefit to him personally. I mean, he could – he's a four-star general, so he could sit on any board or make however much money he wants. And instead, he's spending all of his time and energy and money traveling around to raise awareness

Starting point is 00:31:41 and remove the stigma of traumatic brain injury and PTSD post-traumatic stress. He's the one who's taken off the D. It shouldn't be considered a disorder, which I think is a great initiative. So in our talks, I think he mentioned that being a possibility, and if my participation in he's speaking, especially with military, could relieve the stigma of head injury, you know, a lot of young veterans don't report these things because they don't want to be soft or, you know, something's wrong with me. So if I can speak to those groups and encourage them that, you know,

Starting point is 00:32:17 know, if you were around a blast, it sounds, you know, crazy to have to say this, but if you were around a blast that caused a traumatic brain injury or if you're struggling from PTSD, it's no less severe than a broken bone or, you know, a shoulder injury or, you know, it's really important to get treatment. So if I could speak to that, I would. I'm not particularly interested in just going around the country and repeating my story over and over again just to, you know, go to a conference or go to a university. But if it has a purpose, if it relieves stigma, if it informs people, I'd be willing to do it. I love it, man.

Starting point is 00:32:56 That's cool. I really, really appreciate you being with us, Chris. And I actually just have one more question for you. And hopefully, you know, we could maybe record another one later on once we see what you're going to do next. But the one final question I have for you is, so this show, is, as you know, is based on topics that I'm passionate about and that I love. And those topics are the art and the science of leadership and learning about stories that inspire other people from smart, creative people like yourself.

Starting point is 00:33:32 And the fact that I always want to strive to learn every single day. And so when you mix those two things together, you get a learning leader. And I love to get your definition for, a great learning leader. Wow, I think, I think leadership's more selfless than it gets credit for. I think being the vehicle that drives a successful mission is what being a leader is all about. So a lot of people, I think, especially in where we kind of live in that macho world where, you know, football player or the military or even masculine culture where you have to be this driving, you know, look at me. I think it's kind of leadership's not like that for me at least. I think if you're

Starting point is 00:34:22 in a healthy organization, the best way to be a leader is to just maintain the focus, get everybody on the same page. So I don't know if I had to put it into one quote, I'd say being a leader is being the vehicle that drives success. Perfect. I love it, man. Well, thank you so much, Chris, again, for being here with us in a learning leader show. I was so curious to talk to you. I want to keep talking because you inspire me. And I'm sure a lot of the people listening for everything that you've done. And I'm very, very excited to see what you do next. Well, thanks so much for having me.

Starting point is 00:34:59 And when I do find out what I'm going to do, I'd love to come back on the show. For sure, man. All right, Chris. Thanks, man. Yep, take care around. You too. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Starting point is 00:35:06 This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to LearningLeadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 019: Chris Borland – Why He Walked Away From Millions Of Dollars

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