The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 020: Matt Eversmann – How To Lead Soldiers Into Battle (Black Hawk Down)

Starting point is 00:00:00 I think it goes to the one of those qualities that we look for in people that inspire and motivate us is that they are constantly developing themselves. You know, there is a expectation sometimes that, you know, the unit I'm in will teach me everything I need to know. But you realize that leaders will always, always strive to improve themselves. You know, the easy thing is to ask people, you know, what are you reading? Like, what's on your bedside table? What's in your briefcase? What are you keeping your purse? What are you doing a plane?

Starting point is 00:00:37 Blah, blah, blah. You know, but that says a lot. You know, are people constantly trying to improve themselves to learn more about their industry or their competitors? It doesn't matter. But what do they do in off the clock to better themselves? You know, that's the learning leader. Are leaders born or are they made?

Starting point is 00:00:58 Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. And welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I'm Ryan Hawk. It's not every night that you get to speak with a literal, true American hero. And tonight I get to do that. Matt Eversman. He is a decorated war hero and military leader who survives capture in Somalia.

Starting point is 00:01:49 Some of you've probably seen his story that was immortalized in the epic film Black Hawk Down in which he was portrayed by Josh Hartnett. A phenomenal book and movie. On our talk tonight, I hope to ask him a few questions, mainly the details of the mission in Mogadishu. Exactly what happened. How did people respond when the bullets started flying? I can't wait to talk to. him about that. Also, the specific lessons and leadership lessons that he learned from that mission and how he reacted to it. And maybe more so than anyone else, I want to get his definition for what a learning leader truly is since he spent time, obviously, in the military, bullets flying, as well as now in the corporate space. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm extremely

Starting point is 00:02:34 honored to speak with Matt Eversman. What's up, Matt? How you doing? Ryan, I'm doing well, my friend. Thanks for calling me in. Absolutely. I am honored, truly, truly honored to have you on the Learning Leader Show. If there's ever been the definition of somebody who is a leader, a hero, somebody who's constantly learning, it's you. And I've, I think for a lot of people, you've, you know, your character of you was played in a famous movie, Black Hawk Down, the great book, Black Hawk Down. but I know you've done many, many great things in your life and that being one of them.

Starting point is 00:03:22 So I wanted to welcome you and ask you, you know, what you're currently into and what brought you to this point in your life. Well, first of all, thank you very much. And you're very kind with your comments on this hero in particular. And I say that most appreciative that you would use that term. but I have to say, I mean, listen, you're on a team. I was on a team of phenomenal people, which any one of them could have or should have been the character in this, in the book or the movie. So I just thank you for saying that.

Starting point is 00:04:02 And, you know, it's sort of ironic that, you know, here we are on the Learning Leader Show. And I would tell you, you know, how I got to where I am in this journey has all been about learning. The road that we choose sometimes has a lot of twist. in turns, but the very short, short answer is that coming up on eight years after retiring from the Gun Club, I am working for an enterprise information management company in Annapolis, Maryland, which is a really big $1 word for data management and data technology and all things that govern all the stuff around us. I get to work for a great company that does that. So I'm excited,

Starting point is 00:04:43 And it's all good stuff for me. And every day is a great one when no one's shooting at you. I bet. Now, you're also giving inspirational speeches as well, correct? Again, you're kind to say inspirational. I think I fill in some time gaps when people have meetings sometimes, but I do get the opportunity to travel around the country and speak to some pretty fantastic audiences about my experiences in Somalia and Iraq.

Starting point is 00:05:12 Yeah, I was going to say, because it's not just the, We all know from reading the book and watching the movie that, you know, the mission in Somalia, but that wasn't the only part of your career. That probably was extremely dangerous and had things going on. I mean, there was other aspects of you were all, were you deployed in how many times? I deployed to Iraq once during the surge from summer of 06 to the fall of 07. So I was one of those guys that happened to be caught up in the 15-month deployment. And, yeah, you know, listen, that is a story in itself.

Starting point is 00:05:46 And sometimes a pretty interesting one, depending on who's listening, when you compare and contrast a deployment like Mogadishu to a deployment like we had in Iraq. But, yeah, I was able to make it through with a good group of men and women. And, yeah, one is all I had to do. So I'm pretty fortunate. So how long were you in Somalia? You know, it's funny. we were in Somalia from August of 93 until late October of 93, which at the time, you know,

Starting point is 00:06:18 when you think back, which is hard in the, you know, after a decade of constant combat here, you know, at a time to be gone for a couple of months seemed like a lifetime. I look back sometimes and I think, wow, I can't believe we were complaining, so to speak, about being gone for a couple of months. I mean, that's a, you know, that's a trip to the dog-on candy store in this day and age. But it's time that was pretty, a pretty long deployment. Yeah, so if you don't mind, I like to dive in. You know, I'm a big fan of both the book and the movie.

Starting point is 00:06:56 Obviously, there's differences between the two. But the person who plays you, Josh Hartnett, has, I would imagine, and whenever you look at, you see real life stories that are made into movies, it's kind of necessary for just a few characters to kind of play a composite of the group, right? I mean, so I was curious about that when it comes to the movie specifically to where, because you can't really develop, you know, 30 characters in a movie. You know, you got to choose a select few. So how would you describe how that movie was made using some composites?

Starting point is 00:07:34 I would assume that, you know, you were, or Josh Hartnett playing you was probably one of those among, you know, among a few others in the movie because there's so many, you know, different people involved. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, that's a, that's a fun question. And something I had to learn by watching and it has really everything to do with the calculus involved in the Hollywood production world. Nothing more, nothing less.

Starting point is 00:08:01 And I, sort of a quick back story. Jerry Bruckheimer is the producer of this movie. And, you know, to the time that the movie came out, I, you know, I like movies like the next guy. And, you know, I always thought he was sort of just the action adventure kind of fella. And when I was invited to meet him before the production, when I realized was here is a Hollywood producer that was very, very, you know, we throw around terms like patriot and patriotic. very, very liberally now in this day and age. But, you know, my impression of Jerry Bruckheimer was a Hollywood icon who really was captivated by this story and wanted to portray it, you know, to the American public. You know, no more, no less, no political theory just wanted to tell

Starting point is 00:08:52 this story. And I segue that in because, you know, you go out and you read the script and you realize there's only four or five characters like you pointed out and you think, well, gosh, here's 150. So the whole logic is that you can only have about five or six people that the average moviegoer can remember, let alone get to know a little bit, and particularly in this case, when everybody's dressed exactly the same. And for a lot of the movie, they all have on a helmet and maybe even have their face covered. So really a big challenge to tell this story. Having been said, Brian, they did just as you mentioned.

Starting point is 00:09:31 And they really, you know, how do you tell an 18-hour story in two and a half hours? Well, you got to make composites. You got to combine stories. And you've got to take a little liberty with the chronology of the events. All that having been said, you know, they did a very, very good job, I think, telling this story with the characters that they assembled. And again, please, you know, if you forgot my name for a minute, that's okay. but that, you know, this young ranger was a compilation of five or six people, you know, the Delta Force guys for some compilations.

Starting point is 00:10:06 And with that, they were able to weave the story or weave them into a storyline that was a little different than reality, but not too far. You know, I've told people many times that if you had no idea of the actual event and you watch this movie, you'd have about a 75% solution coming out of the theater talking to somebody that knew the real event. You know, about 75% of it is pretty doggone, pretty accurate. And I think knowing what I know now, that's a pretty good metric for success in Hollywood. Yeah, I found it to be an extremely entertaining and educational movie and book. So, you know, talking about the specific battle, you know, you were right there in the middle of it. And the author of the book describes really a diverse array of reactions on the part of the

Starting point is 00:11:01 convoy participants, mostly positive, I would say, but also a few that probably could have been improved. It's obviously an extremely dangerous and stressful scenario, you know, while the convoy is attempting to reach the first crash site. I guess I'm curious about the lessons you learned or take us back to that moment. If you can still remember, I know it's been a while, but take us back to what's going through your head. You know, I mean, because this is live bullets. You know, it's not training. I know you guys are well trained, but this is live stuff.

Starting point is 00:11:32 And you're, you know, take us back to that moment to say, this is, this is kind of what I was thinking. Here's what I was trying to do. You know, how are the people, you know, certain guys were reacting in ways that you probably liked and certain guys were acting in ways that you did not. So curious to hear about that. Yeah. Well, that's a mouthful of a question. Yeah. When you think back on this very acute, acute from the perspective that, you know, here's this mission that we're planning on lasting no more than a half hour or so.

Starting point is 00:12:05 And with this, whether you call it Murphy's Law or strategic shock or just a series of really unfortunate events that complicate accomplishing a task, you know, everything that could go wrong happens on the battlefield. particularly, it certainly magnified an event like we had in Somalia. So as the backdrop of this question, you know, early on in this battle, I realize a couple of things, Ryan, and first of all, when you talk about yourself, and I would certainly have to throw out that any observations or comments that I make when we talk about leadership or the battle really can only be Matt Evertsman's. You know, I could never speak for anybody else. You can get into the psychology and behavioral analysis of stuff.

Starting point is 00:12:53 But just understand everything I say is just Matt's opinion and my own observations. And when I speak about you, I'm really talking about me. But the couple of things that I realized very, very early on in this battle on this particular day was that, first of all, it's really scary. It's absolutely scary. I could never accept the fact that if somebody is shooting at you, and I tell you that, not that I hear gunfire, but that somebody is literally shooting at you, you hear the bullets whizzing by your head, you see him kicking up on the dirt or bouncing off the wall, that's really doggone scary. And fear is, you know, it's easy to sound very brave as we're talking today, but, you know, fear is something that you kind of have to learn to control. And I don't know if anyone can possibly control their fear every second of the battle on any given day. But, you know, so for me, realizing, wow, it's really scary and that's okay to be scared.

Starting point is 00:13:57 That was a big epiphany, if you will. And I realized that, you know, closely following that realization that fear is okay, and it's just a part of me that I'm going to deal with throughout this hour, throughout the two hours, throughout the day, throughout the month. month, that was all right. And the second thing I realized was that young men, and I say young age is really, doesn't matter whether you're 18 years old, 28 or 38, but young men and women today that are very well-led, well-trained, well-disciplined with a good team of people can survive literally and figuratively in a crucible. By that, I mean, we saw literally playing before my eyes, young guys reacting to the environment just as they had in training. And that's sort of a significant point. And I hope we can get back to that here in a little bit, because, you know,

Starting point is 00:14:57 that has a lot to do with leadership in this continuum, particularly when we're talking about how we're going to accomplish missions in the future. So, you know, to realize that one, being scared is all right, realizing that as I see men reacting in some ways very, very bravely, at least at face value, or guys that had to, you know, kind of take a knee for a second and compose themselves, I realized that was okay too. And I also realized that when there's a demonstration effect that happens, and that meaning, you know, as a leader, everybody's looking at you. And in a crisis, everybody's looking at you to see how you react.

Starting point is 00:15:41 Not necessarily what you say, but what you do. And if you can force yourself to sort of tuck that fear away and focus as best you can on your leadership task at the moment, that has a very calming effect on the team. And the team will then, in turn, sort of mimic your behavior. You know, that has a very interesting effect on me as a leader. you know, when I started to get scared, you know, you'd see the boys, you know, doing the right thing. And I would think to myself, wow, they're not scared, so I won't be scared. So it sort of, you know, it felt, it fueled itself in the function of the team,

Starting point is 00:16:21 finding all this out afterwards, Ryan, that guys were really, really scared, you know, during a gunfight, but they'd look up and they'd see their leader doing his job. So they would, in turn, they were their job. So it was, those were two big ones. Now, as far as what you see in the movie, there is a little bit of Hollywood dramatism put in. And that's not a backhanded compliment to Mark Bowden nor to Jerry Bruckheimer. You know, they seize on a couple of moments as Mark developed the story for the book that he really sort of lashed onto. I talk about the convoy and, you know, somebody reacting differently.

Starting point is 00:17:06 than maybe we would suspect somebody should in that situation. And, you know, remember, it's a moment in time. You know, it's a moment in time that somebody says, gosh, I'm scared, and that becomes a great anecdote in the movie. You know, the reality for me is, you know, I never saw anybody on that battlefield not pulling their weight or doing their job. There were moments where, you know, somebody was, you know, moving for cover and staying behind cover. And you realize afterwards, well, you know, I could be standing five feet away from somebody and, you know, seemingly witnessing the same event being somebody shooting at us, you know, on the corner of a street.

Starting point is 00:17:52 And in my perspective, it could be, wow, those bullets aren't anywhere close. And from this guy's perspective, he's like, wow, those bullets were really, really close. I need to take cover. You know, there's a little bit of relative, you know, what's close mean to you. And I don't mean to be so philosophical or analytical other than, you know, the short answer is that, you know, I never saw anybody behave or take action that I didn't think was appropriate during the battle. So obviously there had to be a ton of learnings from that.

Starting point is 00:18:24 You know, we're getting into the details of what happened and what you saw. So let's say you take what you look. learned from that moment, from this, what, 18 hours or so? And you return home, right? I assume, was it for Benning? I'm not sure. But you return home. Was there, were there a few critical things that you picked up that you said, we need to implement into our training moving forward that maybe you previously had not done? Yeah, no, there's a bunch of them. There's a ton, and I'll try and keep it on the shorter side so that we don't make a four-hour podcast. But, you know, in anybody, whether you know anything about military history or understand the battle,

Starting point is 00:19:09 you know, one of the lessons that was learned right off the bat is you have to bring all your mission essential equipment for you always. You can't make any assertion. Like water and night vision and stuff like that. Yeah, because I saw you on 60 Minutes and also obviously watching the movie where the guys are like, you don't need to take any water, you don't take night vision because they said, we're going to be out here for 30 minutes, so it's no big deal. Absolutely. And as you, you know, I am, I am one of the guilty parties, absolutely.

Starting point is 00:19:41 And I can only chalk it up to, you know, my first experience and you don't know what you don't know. And if somebody gives you an indication that it's all right to do that path, you'll do it. And, you know, it wasn't trying to, you know, I could say from my perspective, you know, I I wasn't trying to sandbag the mission. I wasn't trying to get over. For instance, with the water, what I realized is that if you, at the time, you know, we carried these one-court canteens.

Starting point is 00:20:08 And if you took one of your canteens out, you could put seven fully loaded 30-round magazines for your weapon. They fit perfectly into your canteen holder. And to me, that made perfect sense. You know, I'd take more ammo with me and less water. I'll be fine. Obviously, the doggone reality is that. you know, with the fear, the adrenaline and everything going on, let alone just the time and the heat,

Starting point is 00:20:34 you know, I got severely dehydrated. That was stupid. That was just a dumb idea. So the lesson learned is you got to bring all your stuff with you always. And why do you do that? Well, you got a worst case this thing. You got to be thinking, what if? How far can we figure or plan for contingencies? Now, that opens up an awfully big door, Ryan, because you can't clearly, and I say this in any industry today, whether it's in military or business, you know, there's only so many contingencies you can plan for before, you know, it's paralysis by analysis. But at the individual level, I realize, you know, you've got to have everything with you that you need to win on the battlefield for the most obvious contingencies. And that was probably the most acute lesson learned. as a unit that we brought back from Somalia. You know, we're never going to deploy forward without bringing everything. I mean, that's just going to be the gospel. So I'm thinking about looking back at yourself and the perspectives of you when you analyze yourself

Starting point is 00:21:40 as a leader and said, what did I learn here? You know, obviously, you know, taking everything with you, meaning that's, I think of, you know, having the ultimate preparation for any circumstance, whether it's in life or, you know, in your case, it's a life and death potentially experienced. But, you know, there are business metaphors. I think that can be played there, too, to be prepared for a big meeting or whatever it may be. But your perspective, when you studied yourself on how you reacted, you know, how you

Starting point is 00:22:10 led that day, you know, what did you look back and say, man, I need to learn from this to do this specific task better? Yeah. Yeah. So there's a couple of things. Listen, you know, there's the individual, it's called the individual skills that members of a team need to know, myself included, from, I need to know how to operate my radio system with 95 different kinds of encryption codes and, you know, all the technical stuff. Like, I need to know that better. I need to know, you know, how to zero my, you know, siting device for my weapon better.

Starting point is 00:22:49 There's a lot of that stuff which won't necessarily bore everybody with today. But I think from a leader perspective, the things that I came back that I realized I need to learn better moving forward was, first of all, let's start at the top. I need to make sure as a leader that I understand the mission. And that's a very broad statement. But I need to know absolutely unequivocally, empirically, empirically what the commanding. wants us to do, wants me to do, what he wants my men to accomplish without fail. And that has to be driven then deep into the psyche and the id of every single member of their team.

Starting point is 00:23:33 There can be no doubt what is the metric for success on this battlefield. On our particular piece of this mission, what absolutely must happen. And you would make an assumption that, of course, soldiers would know that. But, you know, these missions can be very complicated, and there can be different phases of mission. And, you know, you as a leader, got to make sure you know that inside and out. And knowing that, that sort of revelation means that you've got to train for that. You know, when you're not on the battlefield, you need to be studying, developing yourself, trying to figure out better ways to understand the complexity.

Starting point is 00:24:18 of command, if you will, you need to understand every skill that is necessary to accomplish this mission, and you've certainly got to train everybody to a really, really high standard. And again, this all seems, I know, as I'm saying, it sounds awfully, of course you do, Matt. That makes perfect sense. But understand that it's hard. You know, it is hard to train anybody to a level that their actions are pure instinct and memory, but knowing that in the crucible, and, you know, combat at battlefield is a perfect example, in the crucible, the easiest things become really, really hard for all the reasons

Starting point is 00:25:02 you can't imagine. So if you know this going in, or I learn this on the battlefield of Mogadishu, I have to make sure that every single man can be trained to a level that they don't even have to think about their actions. You know, they may in their own minds be wrestling with fear, uncertainty, adrenaline, and all those sort of intangible mental and emotional characteristics, but their bodies still need to be doing their job, which makes me sound a lot smarter than I am and a lot more introspective than I am, I realize. But end of the day, you've got to train people to the highest standards so that they can be successful when they're very, very scared.

Starting point is 00:25:44 With that, you also realize that every action on the battlefield has a potential consequence from the benign, like, hey, if you don't bring your water, even for the right intention, if you don't bring your water, that has a consequence. And it's a ripple effect down the road. You don't bring enough ammo. That has a ripple effect. Somebody's going to have to fix that problem, which means all the way back in your supply chain, so to speak, not to be Mr. business vernacular, but, you know, they all have consequences. And not all of them are bad, but, you know, sometimes life just happens. But as much as you can do to avoid putting other people at risk, you've got to do. Probably with that, another lesson I learned is that you will absolutely

Starting point is 00:26:35 always deploy with the team that you have today. And by that, I mean, you can't put off stuff for tomorrow. If the word comes out, if the balloon goes up, or whatever cliche we use to talk about executing our mission in combat, if that happens tonight, guess what? Everybody that's on the team today are the ones that go, and I can't plan for the guy that we're going to hire next week or next month. I can't plan for the training that's going to happen next week or next month. At the end of today, whatever standard we're trained to is what we're going to deploy with. And that's pretty significant because you could have a brand new soldier that just arrived in the unit, right, you know, yesterday. You could just have a soldier that's getting ready to, you know,

Starting point is 00:27:23 thinks that he's going to retire or transfer out of the unit tomorrow. It doesn't matter. You know, we're going to go with the team that we built today. So the fallout to that as a leader as you can't let your guard down. You got to hit it hard every day and understand you, the leader, have to set that expectation of what we're going to accomplish and what's the standard of behavior that we're going to have and what's acceptable and understand that I might have to, I might have to accept a little risk, but the team we have today, to say that again, is the team we're going to war with. What's the first thing you did when you got back when you got home?

Starting point is 00:28:05 Let's, gosh, let's see. I'm trying to think back, you know, for me, believe it or not, and this is a, a, you know, a little bit of a sad story. The first thing after seeing my parents and getting all of our equipment turned in was to drive over to the house of one of my soldiers that was killed to see his widow. Perhaps the hardest thing, I shouldn't say perhaps, without a doubt the hardest thing I ever did as a leader was to go and talk about a fallen hero with his spouse, which, as you can imagine, was a tremendously emotional event, very difficult. I was only 26 years old at the time.

Starting point is 00:28:50 And it's not something that you necessarily train for. In fact, I would tell you that's something that you almost don't even think about. If you've never been deployed to combat before, you just sort of assume that, you know, everything always works out in the end. But that was the major, I remember, that was the biggest, the biggest event of the day on the day I got home was to go over and speak with Sergeant Casey Joyce's wife, Deanna, and just talk and share and try and comfort her as best that I could, but to explain to a grieving widow the positive contribution and the heroics of her husband,

Starting point is 00:29:38 which is a tough, tough thing to do. I think it was very beneficial. It certainly was for me, but that, I don't mean to be a broken record on a rhyme, but that was it. That was a tough thing, but it's a leader responsibility. I can't imagine, man. That's just incredible, you know, I just, I can't imagine the emotion going on in a conversation like that. But you're right.

Starting point is 00:30:02 I think the leaders have to step up and have, you know, some of the most difficult conversations. And I got to believe, you know, as you transition, so let's fast forward and you transition to the time when you now are, you're out, you're not a part of it anymore, and you're moving into civilian world. And, you know, as the number of people in our society who have served in the military continues to go down a little bit, it becomes more and more challenging, I think, for service members to communicate their experience in a way that civilian managers can relate to, really. and do you have any suggestions for people who have a similar background to you as they make that transition to the civilian world,

Starting point is 00:30:49 they look to be employed by good companies or do great work? You know, most of them probably have some phenomenal leadership skills and ability. What advice do you give to those people as they make that transition? Yeah, no, thank you for asking that question, right? Because that's a big one. And listen, if you haven't been living under Iraq for a while, this is a problem where you've been trying to solve for the last decade with this, you know, the numbers of soldiers that have deployed that are returning and now seeking to transition. And I want to just split this into two answers. The first one is advice that I give to veterans, and then there's

Starting point is 00:31:30 advice that I give to potential employers. And it might sound a little harsh, and so, you know, please take it all in the spirits intended. But what I tell soldiers is, first of all, you have to understand that the job that you had in the military and the responsibility that you had in the military of training soldiers to go to war, bringing them home safely, and that, you know, your decisions, put lives at risk, and all this discussion about the responsibility and the level of responsibility in dealing with human lives, you'll never do out here in the civilian world unless you get into the law enforcement or paramilitary organizations. And that seems like a no-brainer, but, you know, it's very easy to sink into this comparison of decisions

Starting point is 00:32:24 that I make out here are not nearly as difficult as they were when I was in Iraq, Afghanistan, or fill in the blank. And to tell soldiers that you have to understand that, you know, in the business world out here, you know, we're a for-profit company, generally speaking. You're going to work for a company that is trying to make money. And while it might not seem as important emotionally to you from an execution standpoint, The bottom line is a really big deal. And so soldiers need to start to learn that when they get out, they've got to shift their focus

Starting point is 00:33:02 and their reasoning and their logic to understand a little bit about the new business world they're in. Having that been said, what I tell them also is that they should be attacking this transition with the same vigor and gusto as they did when they joined the military to be successful. there. They need to be doing their diligent research. They need to be understanding this new world. They need to figure out as best they can how things work as quickly as possible. Because once you leave the military, there's, you know, the clock's ticking on the time until you go to school or get employed. And the soldiers don't normally think about that. Why? Well, because they're deployed and they're working on the battlefield and they're doing all that kind of stuff.

Starting point is 00:33:52 So there is a big expectation that soldiers are going to have to take care of themselves to some degree. That having been said, you know, I tell them that, listen, you have all the skills to be, if you were successful in the military, you've got the skills to be successful out here in any industry that you choose. What you have to understand is that, generally speaking, if you're successful, if you're, you're You, and this is the analogy I use, you know, when you graduated from high school or college and joined the military, your best friend, you know, graduated from high school and college and joined the workforce. He or she has got a by a delta of time.

Starting point is 00:34:34 They have a leg up on you. They've got four years of experience, five years, experience, 10, 50, it doesn't matter. You know, they've got as much experience in the business world as you have in the military. and you have to understand, Mr. Veteran, that you may have to start at a entry-level job or, you know, a job lower than you might have anticipated based on your rank in the military, and that's okay. You know, that's all right. It's all right to leave the military, take maybe a pay cut, a responsibility cut,

Starting point is 00:35:07 take a lower-paying job in an industry that you like. Knowing that in two or three years, you're going to be crushing it. You know, once you get in and you learn the language and you learn the lay of the land, if you're as good as you were in the military, you will be rewarded out here. And that I know for a fact, kids can succeed. It's just getting them over that hump of transition and understanding the metrics of success and the responsibility changes and all that dissimulation, which, you know, what happened in everything.

Starting point is 00:35:37 I mean, the back end to that, Ryan, and I'll shut up in a second. is that if we had the opposite happening, you know, if a businessman or woman that had been five years in the marketplace decided, hey, I'm going to, I'm going to join the Army, you don't get to come in as, you know, a general. You don't get to come in as a colonel. You don't get to come in as a lower enlisted guy. I mean, that's how it works, and they work up through the ranks. And it's no different out here. So long, long answer to a question that deserves a lot more time, but it's trying to explain to soldiers the complexities out here are just as difficult as they are in the military, and that's okay because they were successful

Starting point is 00:36:24 in the military. They've got to learn how things work out here, and with a good mentor, a good friend, a good somebody out in the business world to help them through, they can do it if they if they take their blinders off and are open to it. So we look at the differences. I want to talk about the difference between the military and maybe the private sector. And I think the military places, I'm not a military member, but just so you know, too, I spoke leading up to this conversation we were having outside of speaking with you, obviously on the phone, a guy I used to work with who's a friend of mine, who's a great guy,

Starting point is 00:37:02 an Army Rangers, his name is Jeff Estel, and he helped me prepare to speak with you because, you know, I don't have the same background as you, and I wanted to be able to somewhat speak your language and understand. I'm fascinated by the military groups, Navy Seals, Army Rangers. You know, I've read everything about Pat Tillman, all that stuff. So that's kind of where my background comes from, Matt, when I, you know, that's why I initially wanted to talk to you because I'm just fascinated by the stuff you've done. And it truly is heroic. And I know, you know, all the real heroes I speak with about this, they never, none of them will ever, they always just give credit to. their teammates and never, never take, they're almost embarrassed to hear that.

Starting point is 00:37:40 And that's when you know you're talking to a real hero. So it's cool. But, yeah, Jeff Estol, a friend of mine who was an Army Ranger, helped me prepare. And so he's made that transition very well. I worked with him, and now he works. He's got a leadership position at another company. And he was mentioning to me that the military places a lot of training focus on leadership specifically in learning and getting better and teaching people to be leaders, to grow leaders.

Starting point is 00:38:05 while he's noticed that the private sector, and I've seen some of this too, emphasizes, you know, experience, management, HR, profit and loss, that type of stuff. So what aspects of your Army professional development have you found particular useful in the civilian world? Or is there anything specifically that you've learned, you know, now that you're in the private sector in the civilian world that you could, you know, could help leaders in the military? Yeah, wow, well, that is, first of all, I would throw right back at you that, you know, doing any kind of, you know, your job here requires diligence. It requires preparation. It requires wherewithal to, as you say, to speak the language. So I do, Ryan, without not being patronizing, that you would talk to Jeff to prepare for this discussion shows a wherewithal and a sense of, you know, there's a an intelligence quota there, quotient there that you clearly demonstrate. And I think that that kind of is one of the keys here to this question. And again, not to be Dr. Phil about it, but, you know, I tell soldiers, you know what the best

Starting point is 00:39:23 thing that you learned, and I say, you mean me, what I learned from the military had nothing to do with jumping out of planes or shooting guns or flying in helicopters or all the physical actions. What I learned about being, you know, after 20 years in the military was people. I learned about people and personalities. And, you know, we say the ubiquitous leadership or the team builder and all that. But when you boil it really, really, really, really down to the most basic level, what you learn about are people and how different personalities require different kinds of leadership styles at points and all that kind of discussion. And there is. is no difference. Absolutely, there is no difference in people and personalities from the military

Starting point is 00:40:10 to the civilian sector. So, you know, you show up at fill in the blank company, regardless of your position, you're going to deal with personalities that you have dealt with before. You're going to deal with a hierarchy just like you dealt with before. And sometimes the chemistry is great, and sometimes it's not. But that, if you, in my opinion, is more than anything, or the first thing you've got to realize is that if you get your bearings and start to figure out the people, that's half the battle. You know, you talk about HR, and this is a great topic, because if you've never gone through the hiring process or spent any significant amount of time with human resources, people, they're easy to bash on. You know, the caricature and the stereotype of the HR people are, you know, just canon fodder for know-it-alls. And I throw myself into that basket.

Starting point is 00:41:08 All of a sudden, the more I start working with human resources in a variety of industries going out, and you realize, you know, those people have, they're almost in an untenable position. So how you understand, how you can make the HR person's life a little bit easier, just as you. did, you know, on active duty with your, you know, your supply clerks or your, your personnel to, you know, officers and it's exactly the same thing. It's the exact same skill, and it's entirely dependent on your ability to read and understand people. You know, that I think, and I don't want to be a broken record, but that's a big deal. You know, they put their pants on the same way. They have the same complexities in their life that everybody else does.

Starting point is 00:41:57 And why would we treat the human resource manager any different than we would treat, you know, a senior leader on active duty? I don't understand it. But, you know, we've sort of been bred into this contempt for the HR people, for instance. And that's a tough one. You know, there's a million different anecdotes on that that I've shared with soldiers, particularly guys and gals that are my age. Those that stayed in, you know, for 15 or 20 or 25 years, you know, there's a big revelation when you tell them, hey, listen, you know, you first of all might work for somebody that's 15 years younger than you. Like that, in this day and age, with the way industry is playing out and where jobs are opening in the marketplace, you know, you might be 45 years old and working for a 35. year old. And that seems pretty, pretty silly, but that's a big deal, you know, and to a soldier

Starting point is 00:43:00 to understand that, hey, I've been in command my entire life, I've been a leader on my life, and now all of a sudden I've got to be a follower. That can be a challenge to him. There's all these little things that haven't even broached the subject of your, you know, how your skill set matches, you know, into this new industry. And let's face it, Ryan, you know, if you look into the technology world, that has just exploded at warp speed, that even somebody that has grown up in the tech world has a tough time keeping up, let alone a soldier that's been deployed overseas. But having been said, their skills are transferable. You know, as you talked about their leadership skills, their work ethic, their ethos,

Starting point is 00:43:43 their team building skills. All those are entirely what these companies are looking for. And, you know, in my mind now, it's a perfect. match. Yeah, I, you know, I've been in hiring positions in any time, and maybe to a fall, but any time I've seen guys with that background, you know you don't have to worry about the discipline it's going to take to get the job done. You know you're not going to have to question work ethic. And work ethic, drive, discipline, regardless of the job, if you have those qualities, you know, I as a leader, I'm hopeful that I'm going to be able to teach you whatever

Starting point is 00:44:22 the specific skills it is then that you're going to go and do, right? So there's a few things that a leader can't teach, right? The internal motivation of a human being is something that's, that's internal, right? That's why there's a difference between inspirational speakers and motivational speakers. Really the best ones are inspirational. They inspire you to grow, to learn, to do more, right, to become a leader yourself. Motivational speakers, I think, can help briefly, but that, doesn't last very long. It's like you're excited while you're in the room, but then the execution part, you know,

Starting point is 00:44:59 a week later, a year later might not be there. And that leads to my next question when it comes to training and learning versus implementation and execution. So I think people as a whole can do a pretty good job of being trained, of learning, of let's say you're in a business seminar or a training session. for a day or two, and this is civilian world I'm talking about, and they take great notes. They are engaged, they listen, they speak up, but then they go after the training is over,

Starting point is 00:45:33 and it's time to implement and execute on what you have learned. And not just for a day, but for a day, a week, a month, a year, years, right? That's why you pay a lot of money for people to come in and either and give you an inspirational talk or train you specifically on certain tasks. But people really, really struggle with that. We all do, you know, and I'm curious from your perspective, because you've lived it from, you know, bullets or flying world into now the business world. Why do we struggle so much to implement what we've been taught, what we learn? And what are some specific things that we could do to get better at that?

Starting point is 00:46:12 Yeah, there you go. I mean, if we answer this question today, we can buy a Bentley tomorrow and we can both retire, and that'll be awesome. Well, good. I can't wait for your answer. Yeah. So, you know, it's probably the, I mean, that's the Holy Grail, you know, that is or one of one of the big ones. And I think about it every day. In fact, you know, that is sort of my, my, my, my, my, my passion of studying people and business and all different industries. And there's a couple of thoughts I have. You know, the first, I think maybe at face value, what I would say is, you know, and I don't mean, will let's leave the military out just for a second.

Starting point is 00:46:58 This culture that we live in, I think, has lost a tremendous amount of civility at large. And when I say that, I tell you, you know, next time you have to fly someplace, just watch the behavior of people from the moment you pick up your ticket to the moment the plane lands. At every particular instance where there's an interaction with people, watch how the masses behave. And, you know, we could spend the rest of the day talking about just angry travelers, their rude behavior, just the way they behave. I mean, we've lost, in some degree, a civil society where we can interact with others

Starting point is 00:47:47 in a pleasant professional manner. And that I really, really, I feel like I'm on a crusade for stability. Do you think, not to interrupt, but do you think there's a, for some reason, there's a sense of entitlement in people? And if so, where does that come from? There absolutely is. And I think that there's a variety of influencers on that, you know, from media, you know, what we're bombarded with in front of our screens.

Starting point is 00:48:15 You know, every moment of the day, there is this underlying theme of what success means. What, you know, what does it take to be successful? And, you know, a lot of that all deals with bottom line things. And I say that not to be a weasel. And, you know, as we talked earlier about, you know, understanding transition to, you know, bottom line and P&Ls and businesses being successful from a financial standpoint. But out here as individuals, I think that we have this, it's all or nothing. Who gets to the finish line first is the most important thing.

Starting point is 00:48:59 And really, I have the freedom to do whatever I want, so I'm allowed to do this. you know, I can put my feet up on the wall of an airplane because it's there and I can and nobody's going to tell me now, even though I know I wouldn't do it at home. You know, I can leave trash on the floor and not pick it up. Why? Because nobody's going to tell me not to, and I can do it. I mean, Ryan, that list goes on and on and on. And I think it's our, you know, it's societal. We've allowed this standards to drop and we've allowed people to to pretty much behave in manners that even five years ago we would have considered very rude and crass and unacceptable, and that has transferred into the workplace.

Starting point is 00:49:44 You know, we allow people to behave in very unprofessional, you know, we allow them to behave unprofessionally because we're afraid of saying something because, you know, we might get a lawsuit. And, you know, it just, it sort of all feeds on itself. And I don't mean to sound like the sky is falling and, you know, everything is gloomy and bad. You know, what I think it does, it shows there's a very low standard out here. And somebody or some company, it doesn't matter the unit of measure we're talking about, that can promote higher standards and can elevate the expectations of delivery and can set a very high mark, you know, in the workplace, and people will respond to that and do very well.

Starting point is 00:50:33 You know, those are the folks that are going to win. And, you know, that's a long, long segue into, you know, when we think about leadership and why things are different out here, you know, those that function as units because they have strong leaders, strong followers, great environment to work in, and have a systems and processes of rewards and discipline in place, you know, that's going to win. Those are the people that are going to win. And that's what gets me excited when you think about how do you fix companies, how do you fix business? We say a lot about leadership. Oh, you know, it's all bad leadership.

Starting point is 00:51:11 Well, it's not bad leadership. You know, we have bad leadership in the middle. That's the problem. You know, at our trade, at the gatekeepers at every level in a company got to be held accountable. and they've got to work at high standards. And if we don't, you know, bad things happen. Listen, that really gets the spark flying, and I want to be mindful of your time. But, you know, I think it's a big deal talking about people and how we interact with people.

Starting point is 00:51:41 Yeah, I mean, I really, I feel like we could go forever, man. And I love to, I want to be respectful for your time, too, because I know we're coming up against it here. but I really, really do appreciate the time, Matt. Like, I truly, like, this is an honor more than any other one I've had because while I've spoken with, I think, is some very, very intelligent, creative learning leaders. Nobody that I've spoken with has done the things that you've done and led people that way. And I know you're going to be modest about it, but I'm not going to let you here. I've got to tell you, I just really, really am honored to have this conversation.

Starting point is 00:52:18 I do have one last question for you, though. And that is when you hear the phrase learning leader, how would you define that? Awesome question. And I think it goes to one of those qualities that we look for in people that inspire and motivate us is that they are constantly developing themselves. You know, there is a expectation sometimes that, you know, the unit I'm in will teach me everything I need to know. But you realize that leaders will always, always strive to improve themselves. You know, the easy thing is to ask people, you know, what are you reading? Like, what's on your bedside table?

Starting point is 00:53:05 What's in your briefcase? What do you keep in your purse? What are you doing a plane? Blah, blah, blah. But that says a lot, you know, are people constantly trying to, you know, are people constantly trying to improve themselves, to learn more about their industry or their competitors. It doesn't matter. But what do they do in off the clock to better themselves?

Starting point is 00:53:25 You know, that's the learning leader. And I had a great, great, great mentor for several years. In fact, he went up being my brigade commander when we went to Iraq. His name is Mike Kershaw. And he would literally, in the training, a picture here you are at the middle of the woods, at Fort Benning, Georgia, on a hot August night. And in his backpack, in his rucksack, he would always have, you know, a manual and a book, you know, a training manual, something about, you know, military doctrine.

Starting point is 00:53:57 And then there would be a book on, you know, military leadership, for instance. And always, always would have him with him because he's like, you know what, you're going to have some time, you're going to have some downtime, you're going to have some free time that you need to read and educate yourself. He was always a fan of this self-professional development, and I always took it to heart, and the more I looked around in the military, is that the great ones, and not all, and Ryan also understand, not everybody in the military, regardless of their rank, does become a great leader, but when you look at the big ones, the great ones, they are the smartest guys and gals in the room because they always,

Starting point is 00:54:42 always are learning. And that, I think, is the punctuation mark for you on what a learning leader is. It's somebody that is willing to accept the curvy road ahead and faces that with eyes open and excitement and enthusiasm and realize, you know what, I'm open to whatever is coming my way in the future. I can learn and, you know, constantly try and reapply the lessons I've learned in the past to things we're going to do in the future. And I think that's sort of the recipe for success. That's awesome, man. It really is.

Starting point is 00:55:14 And again, I have to thank you very, very much for taking time. And I love to do this again because I know there's a, like I said, I met with a fellow Ranger of yours and I'm prepared with like a couple more pages of stuff I'd like to get into you with. But I know people's attention span aren't four hours long. So we're going to have to do this again, Matt, if that's cool with you. Yeah, no, Ryan, I would love it. You know, whenever you need a filler, give me a show.

Starting point is 00:55:40 Of course. It's not a filler, a great episode. So I really, really appreciate it, man. And if people want to find you or find what you're doing, is there a place you want to steer them? Yeah, tell them to find me on LinkedIn. In this day and age, that seems to be the perfect spot for business. And if you type in Eversman, you'll find me.

Starting point is 00:55:59 I always answer everybody I possibly can. Perfect. Awesome. Well, Matt Eversman, again, thank you so much for your time, and we'll talk soon. Ryan, absolutely, my friend. Thank you for having me today, and I look forward to it to next time. Awesome. Thanks, man.

Starting point is 00:56:17 Bye. Yep, take care. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter

Starting point is 00:56:40 at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 020: Matt Eversmann – How To Lead Soldiers Into Battle (Black Hawk Down)

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