The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 021: Kare Anderson – How To Become An Opportunity Maker

Episode Date: May 28, 2015

Episode 021: Kare Anderson – How To Become An Opportunity Maker I would like to thank Dorie Clark for introducing me to Kare.  Both Dorie and Kare are such great givers… Always trying to help others and they’ve done so much for me.   I was fascinated with this conversation with Kare.  She is incredibly intelligent and is a very deep thinker.  It was a joy to get her to put some of those thoughts on tape for this great podcast episode. This is episode is great for anyone who wants to become an opportunity maker. Kare Anderson is an Emmy-winning former NBC and Wall Street Journal reporter, now connective behavior speaker and columnist for Forbes and Huffington Post. Anderson’s TED talk on The Web of Humanity: Becoming an Opportunity Maker has attracted over 1.3 million views. Her clients are as diverse as Salesforce, Novartis, S.F. Giants and The Skoll Foundation. Episode 021: Kare Anderson – How To Become An Opportunity Maker Subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher Radio. The Learning Leader Show “A learning leader is someone who is deeply curious about the world… And sees it as a fascination, not a fear…” – Kare Anderson Some Questions I Ask: How did you prepare for your great Ted Talk? What was the process for that? How has that Ted Talk changed your lifef? Why do you think it moved so many people? What is your book “Moving From Me To We” all about? What is “The 2 AM Principle” all about? (His book title) What does being a “giver” mean to you? In This Episode, You Will Learn: “Specificity leads to clarity, credibility, and memorability.” Why Kare sat down for her Ted Talk (people never do this) How to move from “Me” to “We” Thin slicing – Helping Others How to get out of your comfort zone The elements that define a quality life  “Specificity leads to clarity, credibility, and memorability.” – Kare Anderson Continue Learning See why 1.3 million people have watched this TED Talk Read her book: "From Me To We" Follow Kare on Twitter @KareAnderson You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 002: How To Take Over And Set Bigger Goals With Chris Brogan Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? I love discussing how we can all become an opportunity maker.  It’s a fascinating topic and Kare is Kare at it!  I really enjoyed speaking with her.  Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell  Bio From SayItBetter.com Kare Anderson is an Emmy-winning former NBC and Wall Street Journal reporter, now connective behavior speaker and columnist for Forbes and Huffington Post. Anderson’s TED talk on The Web of Humanity: Becoming an Opportunity Maker has attracted over 1.3 million views. Her clients are as diverse as Salesforce, Novartis, S.F. Giants and The Skoll Foundation.   She’s a founding board member of Annie’s Homegrown, co-founder of nine political PACs, and author of Mutuality Matters, Moving From Me to We, Getting What You Want and other books. I would like to thank Dorie Clark for introducing me to Kare.  Both Dorie and Kare are such great givers… Always trying to help others and they’ve done so much for me.   I was fascinated with this conversation with Kare.  She is incredibly intelligent and is a very deep thinker.  It was a joy to get her to put some of those thoughts on tape for this great podcast episode. This is episode is great for anyone who wants to become an opportunity maker. Kare Anderson is an Emmy-winning former NBC and Wall Street Journal reporter, now connective behavior speaker and columnist for Forbes and Huffington Post. Anderson’s TED talk on The Web of Humanity: Becoming an Opportunity Maker has attracted over 1.3 million views. Her clients are as diverse as Salesforce, Novartis, S.F. Giants and The Skoll Foundation.  

I believe a learning leader is someone who's deeply curious about the world and sees it as a fascination, not a fear. So they're open to hearing ideas from anywhere. They're not in a filter bubble. They cultivate allies very different than them. And they try to challenge their own beliefs rather than affirm them. So that kind of learning leader is always growing and evolving. so they become more valuable to themselves and to others.

Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Really looking forward to the conversation I'm about the habit.

night with Carrey Anderson. Carrey is an Emmy-winning former NBC and Wall Street Journal reporter. She also has a phenomenal TED talk called The Web of Humanity becoming an opportunity maker. It's been viewed over 1.3 million times. Tonight, I'd like to talk to her about a few things. One of them, I know she's big on Adam Graham's givers, takers, and matchers. Also, I want to ask the specific questions of how did she get prepared to deliver. deliver that great TED Talk, and then getting her definition of what it means to be a learning leader.

Really, really excited to speak with Carrey Anderson. Hey, Carrie, how you doing? I'm doing very well. Thank you. And you? I'm great. I'm great. And I really appreciate you taking some time to invest with me as well as the listeners here

at the Learning Leader Show. I'm very grateful for the feedback I've received from them. and that's why it's my mission to go out and get great guests and great leaders like yourself. And I like to give you, Kari, you know, a little bit of time to give an introduction to, one, you know, some of the things that you've already accomplished and then what you're currently working on as of today. Well, I'm not that good at talking about myself, but I'll tell you what most matters to me. Okay. I believe that we're living in a complex yet connected world where bad and good can hit faster from more places.

And our most noble mission is to recognize that and to know that anything that was created for ill can be used for good and vice versa from drones to drugs. So my mission and I wrote a book about it is about how we find sweet spots of shared interests with people who don't act right. like us. And I think that's where the adventure and accomplishment happens. I think connective leaders who become opportunity makers with and for others make a difference. And that's after spending much of my life as a journalist for the Wall Street Journal and NBC and Europe and here, covering politics and trends. I had a great bureau chief who said, Kari, you, now, this may have to be censored, you asked so goddamn many questions.

when I send you out for an interview. He said, and after you get the story, you keep on asking. He said, so I have an idea. You come back and do the story, and you write up notes about those other parts of them that you learned. And then when you come out for a future story, you may recall some of those people and get an unexpected comment from someone who's not directly related to the story, but actually has an insight on it. And that was profound for me.

He was an opportunity maker for me. He saw an interest in a talent I had that I didn't see. So that's my passion in life is to be a helpful helper, but not just a giver, but cultivating relationships where there's a give and take over time. There's a flow, an ebb and flow, not a quid pro quo. Because I believe most of us long for people who understand us and where we can use our best talents with others. So that's my long answer to that.

That's really interesting. And I picked up on, you said, to not just be a giver, but it's also not quid pro quo. And the people listening here know I talk about Adam Grant, who wrote the book, Give and Take, which talks about givers, takers, and matchers. I've talked about him many times. He's a guy that also is going to be a guest, and I've been fortunate enough to email with a number of times. And when you mention that, it's not just about being a giver, but it's also not quid pro quo.

Can you expand on that a little bit and what you mean by that? Right. Adam's been a friend to many of us, including me, and his next book is going to be spectacular. Now, I won't say what the topic is, but it's a good follow-up. Yeah. I believe that the healthiest relationships are ones where there's a sense of mutuality, where there's a sense of learning with each other and growth. I think it happens in marriage.

I think it happens in teams at work. I think it helps in causes. So some people keep giving, and then they resent someone for not giving it and getting back to them. I believe a lot of people are takers or even matchers, as Adam would say, if they're exposed to the experience of people sharing explicitly, ways they help each other or co-create, they actually, many of them will move towards that atmosphere.

It's in their enlightened self-interest to do so. So mutuality means to me to actually understand your top talent and temperament well. Like you talked about being an introvert. I'm an introvert. Some of my closest friends are extroverts. I'm a fast thinker. Some of my best allies are quotes.

slow fingers, according to Daniel Conneman. I'm bent towards optimism, and I need pessimists. I feel very strongly that they see things more realistically than us rosy-eyed people. So when you seek out people who have different temperaments and talents than you, and you listen closely, and you suggest a sweet spot of shared interest, and they say, well, you're spot on. That takes it to a deeper level. And just as importantly, when they say, well, that doesn't quite work for me,

but this might, and we're open and flexible, and we speak sooner to finding that sweet spot. We have a more meaningful way and a context to learn more about each other. And out of that, I befriended people that have been helpful to me unexpectedly, because one of the sweetest parts of that is that when you form those kinds of relationships,

you often get help from people you didn't know could provide it. sometimes even before you knew you needed help. And so that kind of web of humanity, I think, is where innovation happens. It's where the thrill of a collaboration happens, because we've all had a bad one. But most of all, when two or more people work well together and they have that experience around something that matters to them, whether they're a surgeon or a soldier or a startup entrepreneur, that first experience of trusting each other

and seeing best talents used together does this amazing second thing. The second thing that they work on together that they never could have imagined before they met is often where the bigger accomplishment happens. And that's where I think life becomes more of an adventure and meaningful. and as you can tell I feel strongly about that

and a lot of people want to lead just do not know how to let go and see the us in a situation it's always a surprise to me who actually gets that sooner and others who think they are but still make it about themselves and they see themselves as givers

yeah so following up on that and I know you feel passionate about it For the people who haven't seen it, Kari has a TED talk called The Web of Humanity Becoming an Opportunity Maker that's gotten over 1.3 million views. Obviously, it's resonated with, you know, over a million people have taken the time to watch it. It's incredible. I urge you all to go and check it out as soon as you're done listening to this episode. And I wanted to learn a little bit about, one, how.

you created that talk, what one into it specifically. I'm fascinated by preparation and what and what it takes to be great or to do something that makes a difference. And obviously, like I said, getting that many views is the social proof stating that what you did matters. It affected people in a positive way. So I know that's kind of a long winded question, but it's it's really about I love to learn about your prep work for that. as well as then you dive into some of that message here too as well. Ryan, I got shivers because you're the first person that asked me that question. And it's something that matters deeply. Juliet Blake was the producer of that. She's also the co-producer of 100-foot journey, this movie. And from the first time she interviewed me by video, I got shivers. Because she told me what I did in a TEDx Berkeley talk that she thought worked and what didn't.

in a compassionate, warm way. And I thought, I don't want to tell her how much that mattered to me, because it sounds like I'll be sucking up to her to get a chance to talk at the TED. But as soon as she told me I was, so more specifically, her specificity in a warm, concrete way lit me up. And it was about mutuality. But secondarily, they were brilliant scientists, some of whom remain friends that also spoke at that.

TED talk. And we had candid conversations with each other. I said, you're trying to make hospitals quiet with your technology. Here's the detail you told me that most stuck with me. And then she'd say, well, here's the part of what I read about yours that did. And in all of us doing that for each other, and Juliet guiding us along the way, distillation happened. I really believe specificity leads to clarity, credibility, memorability. And I thought I felt pretty strongly about this already, mutuality mindset. But in the preparation,

listening closely, a more clear structure, a methodology came to mind. Because when people are willing to be candid and concrete, they're mirroring back to you. And you may not agree with them all, but if you don't listen closely, you're losing a lot.

So I went through about eight iterations and actually was ill the day that that happened was dizzy. That's why I was sitting down. And again, that was Juliet's idea. Why don't you sit, Carrie? People never do that in a TED talk, but I felt so grounded. And the final thing is when you're speaking to people you can see, look sooner to the part of them you can most admire. it brings a warmth to you that's authentic and with them.

And I looked out on this audience, and I saw so many people I knew, it's sort of like being alive at your memorial service. So when you talk about, when you get real clear on your structure, and you get clear on the specific examples and the segues between them, and that's what's important. I've done that a lot in public speaking, but this mattered to me so much. The preparation as a process became more distilled. And so again, it wasn't about me.

It was about the us in the room. When you can move the energy and you feel part of it like you're in a wave together, that sounds so woo-hoo, I know. But at the best, when as soon as you're talking with someone in person or online, and there's a wave that occurs and you're both flowing in it, you know that you distilled it enough to leave space for others to respond, to add to, as Franz Johansson said in the click moment, you've created a hook on which they can add their ideas and make it better.

For some reason, they're really talking long. Thank you. It's all good. That's the point. I would have learned from you, and I know the listeners do too. That's the whole point from bringing you on.

Why do you think it moved so many people? I mean, I've seen, you know, I've seen good TED talks that have, 2,000 views, right? I watch yours, and it's phenomenal, and I loved it, and it's got over a million. What, why do you think, what were those specifics that moved so many people?

I know this is hard as you're talking about yourself, but I still, I'm curious to know this. Well, actually, I was frankly startled, because I do believe there's several TED Talks are much better, and that's not false humility. It just is. I believe people are hungering for a way that they can stay relevant in their work, but also they're hungering. That's why the Friends TV show has been going on so long. They like the Our Gang feeling.

Yeah. So I looked at, we get an average of 200 emails a day still from that. So I'm listening to them and with the help of an analytics geek trying to structure them. and a lot of people know that there's a message inside them in a mission and they want clarity and specificity about it so several of them responded to that part others felt that they weren't being acknowledged in their workplace

they didn't want to just leave and have the same thing happen again but most of all I think a lot of people realize the law of unintended consequences is increasingly becoming the norm, not the exception. That was one of the points. They see that a lot more is in their control and a lot more isn't. And so in light of that, what does one do?

Where do you make your mark and how do you have meaning in your life? I think those were key things. So mine wasn't maybe the best answer, but it was responding to those hungers. And I think one sign if you're on a good message is that people do, want to add to it. I got so many great ideas. I'm now writing a book on opportunity makers. And I want to, as we talk about Dory Clark, our mutual friend, who is scrupulous and always citing other people who have inspired her as her book does so well stand out. And Adam Grant, highlighting other people specifically as he creates an overarching theme or method,

that's very becoming. It's like the opposite of stealing ideas. It's commemorating. It's commemorating. them as they relate to yours. Exactly. I love the way you put it. That makes so much sense, and it's true. And those two brilliant people you mentioned, like I said, Dory, who has been on with me and brought incredible content, energy, value. She's awesome.

And I'm grateful to her for introducing you or introducing us. So she's definitely a true giver. and I'm very, very grateful. So I was looking through the books that you've written, and one of them is called Moving from me to We. And this one specifically caught my eye, and let me explain why to you, and then I want to get your thoughts. So depending on people listening where you've worked or people you've worked with, you know,

I noticed from time to time, there will be people. in leadership roles that will use phrases some like maybe it's an email or in person that say and let's say this person's the in the executive type leadership job speaking to people who work for him or her and they'll say I need you to do this for me right and that that phrase to me is literally one of the biggest pet peeves of my professional life I cringe and so when I I kept a notebook when I was as an individual contributor in my company, I kept a notebook every day. And I wrote down things that leaders did that I really, really liked. And then also things that they did that I didn't like.

And I always, I still have it. I look at it all the time. As I progressed in the company and moved into leadership positions myself, I still look at that notebook on a regular basis, more so at the things that list that, that list, that show that I don't like that other people may have done. And the number one thing on that list literally is, I need you to do this for me. And it still happens every day, or not every day, but it happens a lot. I see it via email or in person, and it's bothersome. So when I saw this book title, moving from me to we, you know, I have not read it,

but I'm reading through it on your website and everything. and it looks like like literally the perfect book, the one that I can't wait to, I know it's an e-book, to crack it open and check it out. Can you describe your thought process in writing this one? It's a precursor to the mutuality mindset, and I wanted to give people concrete reasons why to move from me to we. And so since I also share your heart,

but I believe that until you understand yourself full enough, your motivations and your talents, We tend to project more and talk more at people than with people. So I think some of those leaders are so embedded in what they want to have happen. They haven't learned themselves well enough to step into the shoes of other people to speak to the shared interest. So one of the hot buttons I have that piggybacks right on yours is when so many company leaders stand up in front of their people to tell them, here's what our company is going to do now, and describe it endlessly, instead of first saying, in light of what's going to best use your talents and make your work meaningful

and take us to the next step together, here are the things we're doing. And it would be so smarter because they'd get a lot more out of their people, leverage more productivity, more collaboration, if they gave the why first for the people in the room, how it taps them. So I believe this is an era we're going into where those few people do it are going to get more visibility.

It's not an accident that Richard Branson cited so much. It's just startling the more CEOs aren't because he's forever highlighting the teams that are doing successful things. And the gentleman is a CEO of Etna, which is a rather state insurance company. He just warmed my heart when he went to his own people first, his own employees, and said, this is what I'm going to do, this is why. If you have strong views against it or for it, I want to hear it before we go public.

And what he was going to announce, and he then had their support, listening closely and telling them why, he said, I'm going to give a 30% increase in the salary of the people at the lowest end of our pay scale, because they're the ones disproportionately that most need it. and it's fairest for what they do. So he lifted everybody up. So he had an idea, but he said, I really want your input first. And they backed it.

So I'm getting stories like that, and recognizing, as you were saying, that the people at the top of an organization don't just say, oh, I care about you. I value our employees so much. But they do specific actions, and their language is, about you first. I wrote a book called Getting What You Want, which ironically was not the title

I wanted, but the publisher did. And it sold very well. Basically, it said in communication, you should first address the other person, then what you have in common, and then how it relates to you. You, me, us. So anyway, I think it takes a conscious effort to have forethought. And I believe you should know what you want before you go into a meeting, because only then can you be more flexible and listen fully to think, well, maybe there's a better thing for us both. I truly believe in forethought, even if you're walking down the hall and you see someone coming towards you. What's going on with them right now? What's one of the ways that I can strengthen this relationship with what I might say? When you're really grounded, you can do that more often.

You can speak to the we and start with the you rather than the me. Yeah, it's just thinking of others first, too. I mean, it's a basic tenant in being a good person. It feels like, and I wonder why is it being busy or is it having an important job? Why is it easy for people to forget that? I think it relates to the way we're wired. Our primitive triune brain and the fight or flight is to survive. That's why we may speak to them,

think about them first, but it's grounded in our self-knowledge of us, including our hot buttons and our blind spots. Years ago, I wrote a course for a similar company called Dealing with Difficult People, and it was pretty easy to do it, and it was their best-selling one, because people wanted to know what to do with the jerk in their life. But very briefly, the people train, they give a few tips around specific kinds of jerk behavior and what you can do. And then there's a break because a seminar company wants people to buy books.

And then people would flood up to the poor trainer and say, you know, I have a symbol in my life who does that exact thing. It bugs me. The trainer says in light of the ways to respond that you heard so far, which one will you try? And there's a spillover effect, a broken record effect. They keep on talking about what they don't like. And so it's very human. The best way to find out what you do want to do is to discuss in your, own mind and write down the specifics of what you don't want to do because we're more specific

about what we don't like than what we do. So knowing that, it's like defensive driving. You can see several cars ahead and say, I see hot button behavior percolating up. What am I going to do to choose all act rather than reacting to that behavior? So you spend a lot of time or I'm reading that I've read that you do these individualized coaching, whether it's to groups or to leaders, individuals. What percent of your time is spent doing that? Basically, I'm not doing that much of it. My paid public speaking is my main choice.

Okay. And when I do do it, I'm on retainer to two large tech companies who want to remain confidential about it, where I give 30-minute action-oriented briefings to small groups of 20 people cross-functionally. So I say, get specific sooner, and we practice those things very quick. So the groups bond and then one-on-one 20-minute coaching sessions and do that through seven in a series. Ironically, those groups become so tightly bonded because they've learned it together.

They can talk in shorthand, go slow to go fast, get specific sooner, sidle, don't stand in the face off, that they come to trust each other and they become stronger than some of the teams they're officially assigned to. So the practice of that, I think, and to see peers do it and to tell each other

in code when they're not. For example, they know one group has come over shorthand body signals tapping their ear or so on when they're in a meeting where someone's not getting specific. So I believe that clarity

and specificity happens when we learn better to together and tight-knit teams that have to be involved with other teams in a company like Gortex does and Saddleback Church. Those are ones that leverage the most value and meaning for their organization. And they're moving from me to we. They're in it for each other. They don't have to go to war and be a soldier to have that experience.

Why do you think people, so many people, do a great job of grasping the ideas that you articulate in a great way. They understand what you're saying. They, you know, they listen. They take notes. But then they go back to their lives or their jobs and they fail to implement and execute on what they've learned. Why do people struggle with that so much? And we all have and we all know people who have and we, I know I personally have. Why do we struggle with that so much? It's extremely hard to change habits, as Charles Doolig said and Gretchen Rubin says in a new book. several people. So it really helps if you just practice one behavior and you practice it repeatedly and you have post-it notes in your bathroom, your car, and whatever to remind yourself of that.

And to see others practicing it with whom you learned where you're willing to call each other on it when you aren't and to praise each other when you are. So start small, do one. I truly believe one of the most transformative of all of them, Ryan, is getting specific sooner. Once you're concrete, as you've gotten about the mission of why you're doing this show, it helps you clarify and have context about who to choose what you want to ask them. It makes you more grounded. And so I think that's a great one to start. When you look at ads and you look at what's called content marketing, it's the specific detail that proves a general conclusion.

And once I found the specific that most matters to me, I experience serendipity. I run into people who have complementary talents to help me and for me to help them. There's a mentor of mine from the Harvard Negotiation Project years ago who had a more than dark sense of humor. He said it's often easier to negotiate with a jerk who knows what they want than a nice person who doesn't. And that clarity. Once you get clear, it's only then you can notice, oh my gosh. it's actually five degrees over this way.

That's what really matters. So that's a better example. So being around people have gotten clarity, they can be more flexible and listen to each other. I think that's one of the best behaviors to start with anyway. Icar, you come across as being so confident, soft-spoken, but confident, very comforting and warm. And I'm curious, you really do.

and I'm curious to negative self-talk or doubt that you personally have had, talking about you now. And one, if, you know, yes or no questions aren't good questions, but I'm asking a yes or no question. If you've had that and if so, you know, what is it and how do you deal with it? Well, this sounds odd, but we're wired from childhood from the things we didn't get and we did. and I was starred for interestingness. So to me, I have a high tolerance

for being on people that others might find extremely peculiar if they've got some talent or passion, I just get curious. But my brain is literally wired in what's called a double helix.

I know that because it was studied when I was in college. I worked my way through college. And so I have a gap. In other words, I have a lot of strengths in certain areas about pattern identification, but I have no capacity to remember the sequence of objects. So I live in a town called Sausalito with one main street and the water

on the other side. I've been there a decade. I still can't remember the sequence of buildings, as the police chief Jennifer rather points out. So, you know, when I had to drive, I had a fancy office in San Jose and one in San Francisco when I worked for Deloitte and a think tank. But I could not remember how to turn on the signs to curve over to go down the right ramp. And it was only one turn. And I would clinch up and I'd be so nervous. And I think that that's what makes me realize what it's like for other people. Because it's only directions, frankly, where there's a complete blank. And a lot of well-intentioned people said, let me help you with that. But literally, I can't get better. So I do understand some people don't feel confident. I just feel so glad to be alive,

as corny as it sounds, and glad to have met people that just lit up my brain about an experience. And I truly believe some people say there's less violence in the world. There's less war. There's a growing middle class. Those things may statistically be true, but I really believe we have a great capacity to do harm. There have never been so many people in slavery as there are now on human trafficking. So I believe when we have a purpose, you make that purpose the bigger source of energy. Strength spread just as fears do. And when you focus on something that really matters, it's sort of like when people say I feel self-conscious when I get on stage. Well, don't make it about you.

What is it you really care about in those people that you want them to see it too and maybe help them? It sounds really corny, but that's always worked. So whenever I see these articles about how women should be more confident, I think that's just like focusing on don't worry so much. Rather than focusing on the negative, focus on your purpose. Yeah, I really, I love it. I also, there's one of the thing I wanted to talk to you about about why I'm doing this. You know, we talked before and I emailed with you about why this podcast is happening. Yes.

And I'm a big, big believer in getting outside of your comfort zone. I actually, I think have been very, very bad at doing this. Just, you know, have gotten to, getting into a routine, have been pretty good at what I do within that routine. but in a way you can miss out on so many things if you don't leap outside of your comfort zone. And so one of the reasons or one of the things I thought I could do that would help me get outside of that is this, is creating and starting a podcast because it's really, really, it's impossible to fake. You speak to people for, you know, 30, 40, 50 minutes at a time, doing it, you know, all the time and then releasing this for anybody to listen to and it's public. You know, once you release it, it's not mine anymore. It's the listeners.

But it's been so great. And I absolutely love it and love learning and hearing from really, really smart, intelligent people who are so creative and giving like you. And so when you think of comfort zones and your own and, you know, the people listening, what are things that you specifically do to leap outside of it in order to grow? and what are specific things others can do, can implement literally today right now and actionable to get outside of their comfort zone? I believe if you understand your biggest strengths,

you look for places that you can apply them, which would have to be a real stretch. You may be really important, for example, in a certain sphere. What gets in the way of being great is being good at something. But to go apply your talent, in ways where people may totally ignore you, or be irritated by you, or even say bad things about you, and you have to be steadfast and iterative in how you serve that group or how you listen to them. So going into worlds where people don't know you and may not care or are very different,

I think that it's good to have some kind of path in life and your path is your passion and your top talent but there are a lot of people who may never like it or find you helpful or you may be wrong in thinking you are going to be helpful I think that's one of the bravest ways that can also be productive I've made that mistake firsthand several times

first time I met these pro basketball players in the same hotel where I was going to go give a speech and they were getting together. I had a suggestion of them about how to be more quotable and not sound like the other athletes. I was inadvertently arrogant, condescending in the way I said it, and just plain wrong. And one of them laughed and the other just sneered

and he says, I think I'll throw you across the room. I do remember that very vividly. And I apologize to them later on. And five years later, they came back and made a suggestion to me that I hadn't even thought of about how to be more quotable, which is my core area, ostensibly then. So, yes, that's one way I think would be meaningful and daring. I love it.

I'll just say one thing quickly, because I really do admire you. This is a stretch. You have been very successful already. And you're doing something where it takes a whole different skill set, but it goes to your core. And speaking of Ryan's, Ryan Holiday wrote a book last year called The Obstacle is the Way. Yeah, it's a great book.

I read it. It is. And complimentary to that is Eric Gritin's book called Resiliency. And they say, we're expected to be so cheery and optimistic. But it's when we hit the hard stuff is where we really grow. And my friend, who's a former FBI agent undercover, Luray-Q, she says that's where you develop mental toughness. and mental toughness in its best sense is that resiliency.

And you're doing it. And I'll bet if you journal yourself now, you'll look back in the air and you'll have forgotten some of the things, the steps along the way because you're growing into it so fast. That's my backward compliment. I just admire you for doing it. Thank you. That's a great point.

I am taking copious notes about, yeah, pretty much. much every single day to, I guess it's in a selfish way, just so I can look back and read to say, you know, how this thing is going. And two, maybe it's too grand of thought, but maybe I could potentially help other people who want to do something that, maybe not a podcast, but something that they're passionate about outside of what they're currently doing because I've said this before, but I would get, I get no greater joy, you know, I'm talking as outside of my family life, but no greater joy than receiving feedback from other people that something that was created by me or people that I'm, you know, I talk with helped them and made them, you know, their life

better or they learned something from a guest or from one of our conversations. Nothing's better than that to me, to see people improving, learning, getting better than maybe from something that we created. So thank you so much for being a part of this because I know there's this, our whole conversation is chock full of great, great information and both educational as well as entertaining. And that's what this is all about. Maybe the thin slicing of your brand is how you help people take a leap to an even better life. Maybe you're going to have a signature question you ask each person. Maybe you're going to turn it into an e-book with video vignettes within it around.

it. Wow. Maybe you're going to take the messages that you get from different people into a set of e-books, so it pulls people in to your core message and you identify a methodology that fits with your mindset about how to help people take that leap. Wow. That's awesome. Thank you.

I love the way your brain works and what you're thinking of. With that said, do you think that's. space, which you're talking about right there and not to go off topic. But do you think that space is currently really, really crowded? I think most spaces are crowded, but you can have a different slant. You talk about the fears, so you think, what are the biggest pitfalls? And then you can cite other people, but it's your core branded process. For example, there's a group called Encore that helps people on a third career at a certain

stage in their life. there may be as you go through your branded steps, which ring true for you, things you cite, but you're making it actionable because I like your concreteness and wanting things to be actionable. So you can say it can happen at any stage in your life, whether you are in grade school or you are in a senior citizen center. There are steps you can do to tap other parts of your talent and take a leap that may feel uncomfortable. but it's a facet of you that you've led atrophy or you've never explored. I'm putting words in your mouth, but this is how I saw you when I first read about you and heard about you. So your concreteness and citing other people as steps along the way could be one of the reasons you're doing this.

Wow. We need to talk more after we get done recording because this is great stuff. And I love it. And maybe while you even record another episode together. but I do have one final question. I want to be respectful of your time. I have one final question for you before we take off for this episode. And that is what, in your words, Kari, what is the definition of a learning leader, according to Kari Anderson?

Oh, I believe a learning leader is someone who's deeply curious about the world and sees it as a fascination, not a fascination. fear. So they're open to hearing ideas from anywhere. They're not in a filter bubble. They cultivate allies very different than them. And they try to challenge their own beliefs rather than affirm them. So that kind of learning leader is always growing and evolving. So they become more valuable to themselves and to others. That is awesome. That is great stuff. And I, especially because I put you in the spot. I know some people prepare guests with questions, and I don't like to do that. I don't like to give guests the questions because I prefer this to feel like what it really is, and that's two people becoming friends, learning from each other, and having a good time along the way. And that's

exactly what you've helped me do today, Kari. I greatly appreciate it. I hope there's some way I can either help you or somebody in your network moving forward because I've gotten so much from you. So thank you so much for being a part of this show. And I'm honored that you asked me, Ryan, and I know there'll be ways that we're supportive of each other over time. You sure helped me today. Awesome.

Thank you so much. Hey, where can everybody find you? There's a website, say it better.com. And I do a blog called Moving from Me to We and a Forbes call. But you'll find it all at say it better.com. Perfect. All right, Carrey, thanks again for being a part of the show, and I look forward to talking with you soon.

Likewise, Ryan. All right. Thanks, Carrie. Bye. Bye. Bye, bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time.

Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.